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wili

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #150 on: October 28, 2014, 11:51:58 AM »
If you have a disagreement with the good folks over at SkS, may I suggest you take it up with them?

If you find 6 degrees C comforting, go with it. But may I suggest you check out the book by Mark Lynas with that title?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Michael Hauber

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #151 on: October 28, 2014, 12:06:25 PM »
It is not about comfort, but about accuracy and honesty.  It is dishonest to claim that 9 degrees is IPCC possible scenario when IPCC show a maximum of 6.  It is a skeptical science scenario.

And as for taking it up with SkS?  I don't feel like it.
Climate change:  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, expect the middle.

wili

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #152 on: October 28, 2014, 02:33:06 PM »
Time frames, my friend, time frames.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #153 on: October 28, 2014, 03:11:13 PM »

The linked reference by Bradshaw & Brook (2014) illustrates the complex nature of our current anthropogenic climate change problem (especially when combined with potentially high climate sensitivity, timing issues, communication issues, political/economic issues, etc).  This work indicates that the population challenge is not going to go away easily (before system collapse), and projects that population may likely reach 12 billion people by 2100 (excluding major famines, epidemics or warfare), plus the footprint of the affluent is getting larger even more rapidly.  Unless, we make some major economic change (like a carbon fee & dividend plan), then I believe that increases in population and affluence will swamp any climate change progress made by simple regulations, cap & trade systems, efficiency programs, or normal technological progress:

Corey J. A. Bradshaw and Barry W. Brook, (2014), "Human population reduction is not a quick fix for environmental problems," PNAS, 10.1073/pnas.1410465111

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/10/23/1410465111

Abstract: "The inexorable demographic momentum of the global human population is rapidly eroding Earth’s life-support system. There are consequently more frequent calls to address environmental problems by advocating further reductions in human fertility. To examine how quickly this could lead to a smaller human population, we used scenario-based matrix modeling to project the global population to the year 2100. Assuming a continuation of current trends in mortality reduction, even a rapid transition to a worldwide one-child policy leads to a population similar to today’s by 2100. Even a catastrophic mass mortality event of 2 billion deaths over a hypothetical 5-y window in the mid-21st century would still yield around 8.5 billion people by 2100. In the absence of catastrophe or large fertility reductions (to fewer than two children per female worldwide), the greatest threats to ecosystems—as measured by regional projections within the 35 global Biodiversity Hotspots—indicate that Africa and South Asia will experience the greatest human pressures on future ecosystems. Humanity’s large demographic momentum means that there are no easy policy levers to change the size of the human population substantially over coming decades, short of extreme and rapid reductions in female fertility; it will take centuries, and the long-term target remains unclear. However, some reduction could be achieved by midcentury and lead to hundreds of millions fewer people to feed. More immediate results for sustainability would emerge from policies and technologies that reverse rising consumption of natural resources."

Also see:
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29788754
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Sigmetnow

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #154 on: October 31, 2014, 12:40:43 AM »
If some readers want to know how to fight against climate change, then I believe that the most effective way is to get 51% of the voters to support a carbon fee – dividend plan.  The free pdf found at the following link describes in detail what I mean by a carbon fee – dividend plan applied to the USA.
....
Senator Whitehouse is preparing to push a carbon price bill in the US Congress.

“My legislation will generate significant new federal revenue—perhaps as much as two trillion dollars over the first decade.  Every dollar of this revenue should be returned to the American people,” he added.

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/222123-sen-whitehouse-to-push-carbon-price-bill
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #155 on: October 31, 2014, 01:44:38 AM »
If some readers want to know how to fight against climate change, then I believe that the most effective way is to get 51% of the voters to support a carbon fee – dividend plan.  The free pdf found at the following link describes in detail what I mean by a carbon fee – dividend plan applied to the USA.
....
Senator Whitehouse is preparing to push a carbon price bill in the US Congress.

“My legislation will generate significant new federal revenue—perhaps as much as two trillion dollars over the first decade.  Every dollar of this revenue should be returned to the American people,” he added.

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/222123-sen-whitehouse-to-push-carbon-price-bill

Sigmetnow,

Thank you very much.  Maybe we will not need 51% of the voting public, only 51% of the House and Senate (plus all the other key governments wrt GHG emissions).

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #156 on: November 12, 2014, 01:48:23 AM »
The attached image from uses IPCC data to show that the single largest component contributing to the recent growth in CO2 emissions is growth of GDP per capita, while the following linked reference states that it is not realistic to expect developing countries to limit their economic growth in order to control GHG emissions (note that climate change was intentionally excluded from the agenda of the APEC summit meeting to discuss economic development).  This supports the idea that the world is headed towards an era of high positive feedback mechanisms (triggered by high GHG emissions).


Michael Jakob, Jan Christoph Steckel, Stephan Klasen, Jann Lay, Nicole Grunewald, Inmaculada Martínez-Zarzoso, Sebastian Renner & Ottmar Edenhofer , (2014), "Feasible mitigation actions in developing countries", Nature Climate Change, Volume: 4, Pages: 961–968, doi:10.1038/nclimate2370

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v4/n11/full/nclimate2370.html

Abstract: "Energy use is not only crucial for economic development, but is also the main driver of greenhouse-gas emissions. Developing countries can reduce emissions and thrive only if economic growth is disentangled from energy-related emissions. Although possible in theory, the required energy-system transformation would impose considerable costs on developing nations. Developed countries could bear those costs fully, but policy design should avoid a possible 'climate rent curse', that is, a negative impact of financial inflows on recipients' economies. Mitigation measures could meet further resistance because of adverse distributional impacts as well as political economy reasons. Hence, drastically re-orienting development paths towards low-carbon growth in developing countries is not very realistic. Efforts should rather focus on 'feasible mitigation actions' such as fossil-fuel subsidy reform, decentralized modern energy and fuel switching in the power sector."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Laurent

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #157 on: December 18, 2014, 06:03:56 PM »

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #158 on: December 18, 2014, 08:11:20 PM »
Laurent,

As far as I am concerned the CATO link that you cite above is nothing but concentrated denialist dogma (as can readily be seen by the sources cited in the linked discussion).  It is denialist dogma such as this that keeps the IPCC projections focused on the Mode value for ECS rather than focusing on values with more prudent confidence levels.  The discuss that you linked to focuses on the hiatus period; which in my opinion has ended now with 2014 being the hottest year on record and 2015 projected to be hotter than 2014.  It will be very interesting to see how rapidly mean global surface temperatures accelerate for the next 10 to 30-years, now that so many positive feedback mechanisms are being activated including:
- The PDO is becoming increasing positive and the AMO is projected to become positive soon enough to reinforce the PDO trend.  This will like result in accelerated warming of the North Pacific, North Atlantic and the Equatorial Pacific (which will increase El Nino like weather), which will increase local atmospheric convective mixing that will reduce local (Equatorial Pacific) cloud cover that will increase local solar radiative forcing.
- Increase El Nino like weather will distress many tropical rain forests, which will decrease CO2 absorption while increasing both methane and carbon dioxide emissions from the distressed rain forests.
- The permafrost has entered a critical phase where both methane and carbon dioxide emission will accelerate rapidly over the next 10 to 30-years.

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Laurent

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #159 on: December 18, 2014, 08:44:38 PM »
Well I should have guess with that name "CATO"...
Do you have a link to see how the PDO is going on ?

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #160 on: December 18, 2014, 08:48:29 PM »
AGU 2014: Quantifying the Mismatch between Climate Projections and Observations
http://www.cato.org/blog/agu-2014-quantifying-lack-consistency-between-climate-model-projections-observations-evolution

Laurent,

Just to emphasize how ridiculous the CATO spawned AGU 2014 presentation that you linked to is, the following research (with relevance to the Sherwood et.al. (2014)) reference on the influence of tropical atmospheric convective mixing on equilibrium climate sensitivity, ECS, the linked reference (Tomassini et.al. 2014) projects values of ECS from "… a little over 3 °C to more than 10 °C".   The fact that the AR5 models poorly represent/understand convective mixing processes (particularly in the Tropics), indicates to me that no one reading this forum thread should express surprise if within the next ten years both observational measurements, and/or state of the art Earth System Models (like the ACME model being developed by the US – DOE) demonstrate that ECS is currently substantially higher than 3 oC.

Tomassini, L., Voigt, A. and Stevens, B. (2014), "On the connection between tropical circulation, convective mixing, and climate sensitivity", Q.J.R. Meteorol. Soc.. doi: 10.1002/qj.2450

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/qj.2450/abstract

Abstract: "The connection between the large-scale tropical circulation of the atmosphere, convective mixing, and climate sensitivity is explored in a wide range of climates through a perturbed-parameter ensemble of a comprehensive Earth System Model. Four parameters related to the representation of atmospheric moist convection are found to dominate the response of the model. Their values govern the strength of the tropical circulation, the surface temperature, atmospheric humidity, and the strength of the tropical overturning circulation, largely through their influence on the atmospheric stability. The same convective parameters, albeit in different combinations, also have a strong influence on the equilibrium climate sensitivity of the model, which ranges from a little over 3 °C to more than 10 °C. The importance of the most poorly represented processes in determining important aspects of the behaviour of the model argues for the need to move beyond statistical approaches to estimating climate sensitivity and to focus on the development of a better understanding and representation of convective mixing, particularly in the Tropics."

Best,
ASLR
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 09:00:41 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #161 on: December 18, 2014, 08:58:55 PM »
Well I should have guess with that name "CATO"...
Do you have a link to see how the PDO is going on ?

Laurent,

The following link leads to the University of Washington's PDO values which for November was up to +1.72:

http://www.jisao.washington.edu/pdo/PDO.latest

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Michael Hauber

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #162 on: December 19, 2014, 10:42:32 AM »
Laurent,

As far as I am concerned the CATO link that you cite above is nothing but concentrated denialist dogma (as can readily be seen by the sources cited in the linked discussion).  It is denialist dogma such as this that keeps the IPCC projections focused on the Mode value for ECS rather than focusing on values with more prudent confidence levels. 

The facts for temperature vs model projections are accurate.  In general I think Patrick Michaels and Paul Knappenberger are careful about getting their facts correct, although they are definitely biased in carefully selecting facts that fit with their agenda and ignoring facts that are contrary.  They present arguments that on the surface may be supported by the facts presented, but ignore other facts and issues.  Eg here is some evidence for factor X having a significant influence on Y, therefore Co2 does not have any influence on Y (whereas in actual fact both X and Co2 have an influence) . 

The projection has nothing to do with the mode value, and has nothing to do with ECS (equilibrium climate sensitivity).  The model vs temperature projection is going to have far more to do with transient climate sensitivity then it does equilibrium climate sensitivity.

The issue with the CATO article is that while the warming rate has been lower than projected, we have found no evidence that the difference is due to a lower climate sensitivity.  There is some evidence that the slower warming is due to issues such as aerosol cooling, trade wind variation (perhaps linked with PDO) or higher amounts of warming going into the ocean than expected.  This delays the warming in the short term but makes no difference in the long term - although long term being centuries not decades.

The issue with the claims of certain alarmists in this forum is that while presenting the very genuine evidence that warming may be faster in the future, the fact that recent warming (last 30 years) has been somewhat slower than the models project has been ignored.  Perhaps the faster warming in the future may push the warming rate above what the IPCC models predict for a middle case.  Or perhaps not.
Climate change:  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, expect the middle.

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #163 on: December 19, 2014, 05:56:33 PM »
If the CATO article was simply presenting a few limited facts, that needed to be considered in a much larger world of facts, then I would not label it "denialist dogma"; however, this is not the case.  The following are Patrick Michaels' and Paul Knappenberger's conclusions:

Quote: "CONCLUSIONS

We conclude that at the global scale, this suite of climate models has failed.  Treating them as mathematical hypotheses, which they are, means that it is the duty of scientists to reject their predictions in lieu of those with a lower climate sensitivity.

It is impossible to present reliable future projections from a collection of climate models which generally cannot simulate observed change. As a consequence, we recommend that unless/until the collection of climate models can be demonstrated to accurately capture observed characteristics of known climate changes, policymakers should avoid basing any decisions upon projections made from them. Further, those policies which have already be established using projections from these climate models should be revisited. Assessments which suffer from the inclusion of unreliable climate model projections include those produced by the IPCC and the U.S. Global Climate Change Research Program (including their most recent National Climate Assessment). Policies which are based upon such assessments include those established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency pertaining to the regulation of greenhouse gas emissions under the Clean Air Act."

Michaels and Knappenberger are recommending to base policy decisions on 20 to 30-years of observations, which is not a valid scientific conclusion at all but which is rather clearly "denialist dogma" as demonstrated by the arguments in the following skeptical science link:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/unpacking-unpaused-global-warming-models-right.html
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jai mitchell

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #164 on: December 19, 2014, 06:32:38 PM »
That was a pretty funny graphic.  The CATO series is a complete joke sans error uncertainty compounding due to averaging model outputs and reducing series trends.

I am sure that the cone of uncertainty for 2-sigma around their trend average is quite large and that is why they didn't show it.

There are real world reasons why the current temperature value is below expectations, and if china and india magically found a way to cease all SO2 emissions tomorrow, we would all be in a terrible world of hurt in 2 weeks!
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AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #165 on: December 21, 2014, 02:58:45 AM »
The linked research indicates that the world's tropical rainforests may soon reach a "tipping point", where their continued deforestation leads to a marked acceleration of positive feedback to climate change.  This is not reassuring news given the rate of population increase in tropical rainforest areas such as the Amazon, the Congo and Indonesia where local farmers typically use slash and burn farming techniques to feed their families.

Deborah Lawrence & Karen Vandecar, (2015 published online Dec 18 2014), "Effects of tropical deforestation on climate and agriculture", Nature Climate Change, 5,27–36doi:10.1038/nclimate2430

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v5/n1/full/nclimate2430.html

Abstract: "Tower, ground-based and satellite observations indicate that tropical deforestation results in warmer, drier conditions at the local scale. Understanding the regional or global impacts of deforestation on climate, and ultimately on agriculture, requires modelling. General circulation models show that completely deforesting the tropics could result in global warming equivalent to that caused by burning of fossil fuels since 1850, with more warming and considerable drying in the tropics. More realistic scenarios of deforestation yield less warming and less drying, suggesting critical thresholds beyond which rainfall is substantially reduced. In regional, mesoscale models that capture topography and vegetation-based discontinuities, small clearings can actually enhance rainfall. At this smaller scale as well, a critical deforestation threshold exists, beyond which rainfall declines. Future agricultural productivity in the tropics is at risk from a deforestation-induced increase in mean temperature and the associated heat extremes and from a decline in mean rainfall or rainfall frequency. Through teleconnections, negative impacts on agriculture could extend well beyond the tropics."

See also:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-suggests-forest-cutting-can-have-an-immediate-effect-on-climate/2014/12/18/ba392600-86f6-11e4-abcf-5a3d7b3b20b8_story.html

Extract: "Lawrence’s report is a peer-reviewed summary of existing research, and she found that deforestation, even at small, localized levels, can change the climate. “Farmers in one place are connected to farmers in another. Countries are connected to each other,” Lawrence said. “We don’t want to wait until the climate system has shifted so we can measure it on the ground.”
She said there is a possible “tipping point” of 30 to 50 percent deforestation for the Amazon and Central Africa. Deforestation beyond that could invite disaster.
“Tropical deforestation on many scales influences local, regional and even global climate.
Deforestation-driven changes to water availability and climate variability could have strong implications for agricultural production systems and food security in some regions,” the report says.
“Significant large-scale deforestation in any of these regions could have impacts on agriculture — across the world there will be regions that suffer,” Lawrence said.
About 20 percent of the Amazon has been deforested. And scientists have noticed changes in its climate. “Among these effects are drastic, widespread decreases in forest transpiration, changes in the dynamics of clouds and rain, and the extended duration of the dry season,” said a report released in October by Brazilian scientist Antonio Nobre, who is associated with the National Institute of Space Research."

Also see Replies #324 to #329 of the "Mauna Loa CO2" thread:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,66.300.html
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 03:34:20 AM by AbruptSLR »
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LRC1962

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #166 on: December 21, 2014, 04:22:33 AM »
I have seen in several places the argument that the 1st world is getting a handle on CO2 emissions because their emissions are declining.
That argument has a major flaw in it in that it fails to recognise that up until about 1980 or so the 1st world manufactured most of its own consumables. Since then the majority has been done by the developing world. If you compare the amount of CO2 emitted to produce  consumables sold in the 1st world between 1980 and 2010 I suspect they have risen sharply because of lower pollution standards. Some indication of this can be seen from this following.
Quote
Since 1751 approximately 365 billion metric tonnes of carbon have been released to the atmosphere from the consumption of fossil fuels and cement production. Half of these fossil-fuel CO2 emissions have occurred since the mid 1980s. The 2010 global fossil-fuel carbon emission estimate, 9167 million metric tons of carbon, represents an all-time high and a 4.9% increase over 2009 emissions.
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/CO2_Emission/timeseries/global
If you then turn around and say it is the fault of the developing world that is happening because they should implement standards, I argue if you buy it and it is made there you are encouraging that action. As long as that continues you WILL see the escalating trend of CO2 emissions as the non 1st world countries try and catch up to the 1st world and denying them that possibility is close to elitism and snobbery. The 1st world response should be to give the rest of the world cheap access to develope their own renewables and the cheap clean ability to catch up to our own standards of living.
Pumping our chest of how clean we are because we actually have fewer high emission industries left in our countries is really sad to see.
Based on this, IMO CO2 will run rampantly upward until 1 of 2 scenarios happen. 1) Major 1st world economic/political cities have to be evacuated because of flooding or 2) a humanitarian/economic/political catastrophe happens to effect the top 0.1% of the world.
A third possibility is that a world renowned leader the likes of Lincoln, FDRoosevelt, Churchill who would be willing to take on all comers for the greater good to tackle this problem. Hears hoping it is that before it is too late.
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second,  it is violently opposed; and Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #167 on: December 21, 2014, 05:32:03 AM »
LRC1962,

I agree that either we had all better learn to effectively support each other, or we will all sink together.  That said, I believe that one of the most effective ways to support the developing nations would be for as many nations as possible to put a progressively increasing price (fee) on carbon with a redistribution (dividend) of such a fee to those nation's common citizens, and for those nations to put tariffs on goods coming from non-participating countries.  I believe that this would take money away from fossil fuel powers and would make private pools of money (say via "sustainable" mutual funds) available to be invested in renewables in developing countries, as such private investments would likely provide greater rates of return under such widespread national carbon fee & dividend plans; than would investing these private dividends in developed countries.

Best,
ASLR
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 06:27:02 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #168 on: December 21, 2014, 06:55:20 PM »
That was a pretty funny graphic.  The CATO series is a complete joke sans error uncertainty compounding due to averaging model outputs and reducing series trends.

I am sure that the cone of uncertainty for 2-sigma around their trend average is quite large and that is why they didn't show it.

There are real world reasons why the current temperature value is below expectations, and if china and india magically found a way to cease all SO2 emissions tomorrow, we would all be in a terrible world of hurt in 2 weeks!

AR5 incorrectly increased the lower range of like ECS values (from the AR4 range) down to 1.5 C, largely due to such poorly constructed studies (as the CATO article references) of the ECS base observationally data from the past 20 to 30 years.  As jai points out such CATO-like short-term observational-based studies poorly quantify their likely error ranges and uncertainties from such factors as:
(a) the Cowtan & Way 2014 finding that the global mean temperature readings are systematically too low during the satellite observational era;
(b) during the past 20 to 30 years there has been greater than average volcanic activity (which resulted in abnormally low cooling that should have been corrected for);
(c) the negative PDO phase during this period carried and abnormal amount of surface heat into the oceans; and
(d) the unexpectedly high amount of aerosol emissions (particularly in China due to their rapid expansion of coal-fired power plants during this period) masked much of the potential heating.

To me, it is indeed unfortunate that the IPCC - AR5 combines PDFs from poorly constructed short-term observational studies, without any attempt at all to correct such reported low values of ECS for the masking factors listed above, just because these studies happened to make it through peer review.  To me, this illustrates a major short-coming of the IPCC process-based (Frequentist dominated) system for climate assessment in that it takes no responsibility for making sure that the PDFs for ECS estimated from various sources have been constructed appropriately to allow for combination into a correct PDF for the likely range of ECS (or other climate sensitivity parameters).  In short the IPCC process allows Frequentists to use reductionism to create PDFs for feedback mechanisms that do not correctly account for the true nature of the various Earth Systems (eg volcanic activity, ENSO cycles, PDO/AMO cycles, aerosols) nor for direct observational errors (such as identified by Cowtan & Way), and then proceeds to combine these incorrect PDFs without taking appropriate responsibility (or by footnoting excessive caveats) for normalizing these various reductionist studies into an integrated whole, suitable for policy making.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #169 on: December 23, 2014, 12:20:18 PM »
I decided to expand the post that I recently made in the Feedbacks thread in the Arctic folder to discuss possible methane emissions from the Arctic seafloor as a possible positive feedback mechanism that could conceivably drive the mean global surface temperature over 9 C in the next century.

In a two-part study by scientists from the US Department of Energy’s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) and Los Alamos National Laboratory utilized a scenario based on a combination of two computer models of how climate change could impact the millions of tons of methane frozen in sediment beneath the Arctic Ocean.  In the initial phase of the project they found that buried deposits of methane hydrates, will decompose as the global temperature increases and the oceans warm. In the second phase, the scientists found that methane would then seep into the Arctic Ocean and gradually overwhelm the marine environment’s ability to break down the gas. Supplies of oxygen, nutrients, and trace metals required by methane-eating microbes would dwindle year-by-year as more methane enters the water. After three decades of methane release, much of the methane may bubble to the surface, where it has the potential to accelerate climate change.  The author's (Elliot et al. 2011) conclusions include:
"The vast Arctic shelf supports massive hydrate reservoirs, and many are close to the edge of stability [Archer, 2007].  Since these deposits are often located in the depth range of recently ventilated North Atlantic water masses, relatively small increases in temperature due to climate change may result in dissociation [Lamarque, 2008].  In the present study, methane flow from warming clathrates is calculated by porous-media simulation [Reagan and Moridis, 2008]."

Archer, D. (2007), "Methane hydrate stability and anthropogenic climate change", Biogeosciences, 4, 521-544, doi: 10.5194bg-4-521-2007.

Elliott, S., Maltrud, M., Reagan, M., Moridis, G., and Cameron-Smith, P., "Marine methane cycle simulations for the period of early global warming", Journal of Geophysical Research, Vol. 116, G01010, doi: 10.1029/2010JG00 1300, 2011.

Lamarque, J.F. (2008), "Estimating the potential for methane clathrate instability in the 1% CO2 IPCC AR-4 simulations", Geophys. Res. Lett., 35, L19806, doi: 10.1029/2008GL035291.

Reagan, M.T. (PI), (2011), Interrelation of Global Climate and the Response of Oceanic Hydrate Accumulations, Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory: Task Report 10-1, January 31, 2011.

Reagan, M.T., and Moridis, G.J. (2008), "Dynamic response of oceanic hydrate deposits to ocean temperature change", J. Geophys. Res., 113, 107, 486-513, doi: 10.1029/2008JC004938.

The first attached image from Elliott et al 2011 shows a projection from an Earth Systems Model run at Lawrence Berkeley Labs of the change in Arctic Sea Floor temperatures between 2000 and 2100 for SRES A1B, indicating substantial warming particularly in the East Siberian Arctic Shelf, ESAS.
The second attached image indicates how under conditions with a high positive Arctic Oscillation (AO) index (which is positive about ½ the time), the Arctic Ocean circulation patterns transport relatively warm Atlantic Ocean water directly to the ESAS, thus promoting the degradation of the underwater permafrost in this area, contributing to the accelerated emission of methane from the seafloor.
The third attached image indicates that when the Atlantic Maximum Meridional Overturning anomaly increases around 2030 the Ocean Heat Transport into the Arctic Ocean will more than double from current values (which will provide heat to the Arctic seafloor to degrade relict submerged permafrost and then submerged methane hydrates, starting sometime between 2030 and 2050).

With these three images as background, the following linked reference addresses both the current, and future, situation in the West Yamal continental shelf with regards to degradation of the local subsea permafrost (and these findings will be relevant to the ESAS within two to three decades).  The Portnov et al 2014 paper shows that in the West Yamal shelf area the relict subsea permafrost (which traps methane gas beneath it and also stabilizes methane hydrates beneath it) are already degrading to the point of leaking methane gas in the 20 to 50 meter water depth range, and the reference notes that model projections indicates that in the next few decades the ocean water temperature at the seafloor in this area should increase from about 0.5 C to about 2.5 C, which should result in a rapid acceleration of the degradation of this relic subsea permafrost.  If indeed, the relict subsea permafrost in the Russian Arctic shelves degrade rapidly due to the introduction of warm ocean currents along the seafloor from the North Atlantic Current, within the next few decades then the world could experience a very large positive feedback, first from the associated release of free methane gas from beneath the previously impermeable permafrost and second from the destabilization of the methane hydrates that were kept in a quasi-stable condition since the last ice age due to the melting of the degrading permafrost keeping the hydrates in a transient low temperature condition.

Portnov, A., J. Mienert, and P. Serov (2014), Modeling the evolution of climate-sensitive Arctic subsea permafrost in regions of extensive gas expulsion at the West Yamal shelf, J. Geophys. Res. Biogeosci., 119, 2082–2094, doi:10.1002/2014JG002685.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2014JG002685/abstract

Abstract: "Thawing subsea permafrost controls methane release from the Russian Arctic shelf having a considerable impact on the climate-sensitive Arctic environment. Expulsions of methane from shallow Russian Arctic shelf areas may continue to rise in response to intense degradation of relict subsea permafrost. Here we show modeling of the permafrost evolution from the Late Pleistocene to present time at the West Yamal shelf. Modeling results suggest a highly dynamic permafrost system that directly responds to even minor variations of lower and upper boundary conditions, e.g., geothermal heat flux from below and/or bottom water temperature changes from above permafrost. Scenarios of permafrost evolution show a potentially nearest landward modern extent of the permafrost at the West Yamal shelf limited by ~17 m isobaths, whereas its farthest seaward extent coincides with ~100 m isobaths. The model also predicts seaward tapering of relict permafrost with a maximal thickness of 275–390 m near the shoreline. Previous field observations detected extensive emissions of free gas into the water column at the transition zone between today's shallow water permafrost (<20 m) and deeper water nonpermafrost areas (>20 m). The model adapts well to corresponding heat flux and ocean temperature data, providing crucial information about the modern permafrost conditions. It shows current locations of upper and lower permafrost boundaries and evidences for possible release of methane from the seabed to the hydrosphere in a warming Arctic."

Also see:
http://phys.org/news/2014-12-methane-leaking-permafrost-offshore-siberia.html

Extract: "Portnov used mathematical models to map the evolution of the permafrost, and thus calculate its degradation since the end of the last ice age. The evolution of permafrost gives indication to what may happen to it in the future.
If the bottom ocean temperature is 0,5°C, the maximal possible permafrost thickness would likely take 9000 years to thaw. But if this temperature increases, the process would go much faster, because the thawing also happens from the top down.
"If the temperature of the oceans increases by two degrees as suggested by some reports, it will accelerate the thawing to the extreme. A warming climate could lead to an explosive gas release from the shallow areas."
Permafrost keeps the free methane gas in the sediments. But it also stabilizes gas hydrates, ice-like structures that usually need high pressure and low temperature to form.
"Gas hydrates normally form in water depths over 300 meters, because they depend on high pressure. But under permafrost the gas hydrate may stay stable even where the pressure is not that high, because of the constantly low temperatures."
Gas hydrates contain huge amount of methane gas, and it is destabilization of these that is believed to have caused the craters on the Yamal Peninsula."

On a related matter, the linked article reported (see the following quote) on the findings from cores that indicated two carbon pulses during the PETM, with the first one smaller than the second; which raises the possibility the with strong forcing, positive feedback mechanisms (particularly from methane hydrates) may be stronger than previously thought:

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/earths-future-ancient-warming-gives-ominous-peek-climate-change-n268721

Quote: "Intriguingly, Bowen and his colleagues determined that there were actually two releases of carbon into the atmosphere, one before the PETM and one shortly after it started.
And that may be a sign of scary things to come.
"One possible explanation is that the first, the smaller one, caused some climate change that triggered a second one," Bowen said. "So it's possible that the current pulse we are adding to the atmosphere may trigger unanticipated feedbacks that might lead to warming that could last hundreds of thousands of years."
That first release of carbon could have been the result of volcanism, Bowen says. And that might have caused the oceans to warm, which could have led to the melting of methane that lies in frozen deposits on the sea floor. And that could have accounted for the second pulse.
"We don't need a ton of warming for that to happen," Bowen said. "That's a little scary.""

http://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo2316.epdf?referrer_access_token=8qL2xHzOIEYqtOXeHGWNHNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0MFms2cyCBGVzLm4qXkc0yPPRqtmlhoybdEeLtzJY_dafXV2xa9tGePtpL1D8YTJOU%3D
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Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #170 on: December 29, 2014, 11:57:45 PM »
I don't see a 9 degree rise happening. I hope so anyway

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #171 on: December 30, 2014, 12:43:09 AM »
Bryanfinlay -  "I don't see a 9 degree rise happening. I hope so anyway"

Unfortunately with respect to climate change and emissions mitigation most of the world community decision making and perception is based on hope.  The forlorn hope that the science of climate change is not true or the forlorn hope that renewable energy can replace fossil fuel generation.

Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #172 on: December 30, 2014, 01:40:23 AM »
There's no solid evidence to indicate a 9 degree rise. There are no recent studies indicating that, and emissions reduction is not a forlorn hope. If you think the way you do, we might as well give in and say the earth is done. It's not.

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #173 on: December 30, 2014, 03:32:32 AM »
There's no solid evidence to indicate a 9 degree rise. There are no recent studies indicating that, and emissions reduction is not a forlorn hope. If you think the way you do, we might as well give in and say the earth is done. It's not.

Bryant,

This thread is not about proving that a 9 C temperature rise will definitely occur over the next century (2015) or so; but rather about discussing evidence that it is possible/plausible that this might occur.  If you have clear evidence that this rapid temperature rise is impossible then please present your case.

Best,
ASLR
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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #174 on: December 30, 2014, 03:50:05 AM »
I don't see a 9 degree rise happening. I hope so anyway

I have to agree with Bryantfinlay it's not an ideal situation for the planet. Philosophically, however, there's no apparent causal link between him and me not wanting it to happen, and it not happening to the planet out there in the real world of hard sciences.
[]

Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #175 on: December 30, 2014, 06:02:53 AM »
Alright, I thought you guys were saying it was going to happen. Sorry about that. Certainly a rise of that magnitude is possible, but I don't see it happening unless there's an abrupt release of methane. And not just that, a huge one much bigger than Shakhova has postulated. There's not s whole lot of convincing evidence that an abrupt release is imminent, much less a huge one

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #176 on: December 30, 2014, 06:34:13 AM »
Alright, I thought you guys were saying it was going to happen. Sorry about that. Certainly a rise of that magnitude is possible, but I don't see it happening unless there's an abrupt release of methane. And not just that, a huge one much bigger than Shakhova has postulated. There's not s whole lot of convincing evidence that an abrupt release is imminent, much less a huge one

Dude, there will never be a «whole lot of convincing evidence that an abrupt release is imminent», as per the very definition of the word abrupt.
[]

Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #177 on: December 30, 2014, 06:42:11 AM »
True, but I still don't see an abrupt release large enough to cause 9 degrees happening. A lesser abrupt release perhaps, and even that's somewhat iffy.

viddaloo

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #178 on: December 30, 2014, 07:06:39 AM »
True, but I still don't see an abrupt release large enough to cause 9 degrees happening. A lesser abrupt release perhaps, and even that's somewhat iffy.

Well, hang on there a minute, will you? You're saying that between 2015 and the year 2115 you don't «see» a surprising hydrate or permafrost release large enough to cause a warming like that in the IPCC scenario? Do you think you could share the method applied here for verification by others? It seems pretty interesting, that is if your method of «seeing» can actually rule out any surprise in a very remote area probably never visited by you during the next 100 years.
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Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #179 on: December 30, 2014, 07:18:37 AM »
You're twisting my words, dude. I'm not ruling out the possibility of it happening in the next 100 years. It very well may, but I think a release that large is unlikely. The bottom line is none of us know what the future holds, but research and planning for every scenario needs to be done.

viddaloo

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #180 on: December 30, 2014, 10:50:17 AM »
Dang. Here I thought you were sitting on a piece of bleeding edge technology for seeing into the future of the planet, but then you were only sharing your baseless assumptions with the world.

You do realise this is the thread for an 'IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so', right? That means the 9C you talk about are to happen within a hundred years. That means a release from the tundra or seabed would only have to contribute to that warming, and remember a hundred years is a very long time. If the release causes a jump of just 1C, positive feedbacks can get pretty far from that flying start in a hundred years. One of those positive feedbacks would of course be even more and possibly bigger releases from the tundra and/or seabed.

It very well may, but I think a release that large is unlikely.

How large? How many gigatons is it that you say is unlikely during the next hundred years? And where is your proof or references for these assumptions?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 11:00:10 AM by viddaloo »
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Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #181 on: December 30, 2014, 02:11:12 PM »
First of all, I don't appreciate you insulting me by using the word baseless. Second, my evidence comes from the abrupt climate change study done by the Academy of Sciences from 2013-14, the work of Ruppel and the USGS in the waters off Alaska, and Shakhova herself downplaying the methane bomb theory. I will provide links in a later post. Now let me close on a disclaimer here, governments should start to plan as if abrupt releases are imminent. It never hurts to do planning.

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #182 on: December 30, 2014, 05:06:51 PM »
While not proving that Arctic Sea will emit significant quantities of methane in the next 100-years, the following linked reference addresses both the current, and future, situation in the West Yamal continental shelf with regards to degradation of the local subsea permafrost (and these findings will be relevant to the ESAS within two to three decades).  The Portnov et al 2014 paper shows that in the West Yamal shelf area the relict subsea permafrost (which traps methane gas beneath it and also stabilizes methane hydrates beneath it) are already degrading to the point of leaking methane gas in the 20 to 50 meter water depth range, and the reference notes that model projections indicates that in the next few decades the ocean water temperature at the seafloor in this area should likely increase from about 0.5 C to about 2.5 C, which should result in a rapid acceleration of the degradation of this relic subsea permafrost.  If indeed, the relict subsea permafrost in the Russian Arctic shelves degrade rapidly due to the introduction of warm ocean currents along the seafloor from the North Atlantic Current, within the next few decades then the world could experience a very large positive feedback, first from the associated release of free methane gas from beneath the previously impermeable permafrost and second from the destabilization of the methane hydrates that were kept in a quasi-stable condition since the last ice age due to the melting of the degrading permafrost keeping the hydrates in a transient low temperature condition.

Portnov, A., J. Mienert, and P. Serov (2014), Modeling the evolution of climate-sensitive Arctic subsea permafrost in regions of extensive gas expulsion at the West Yamal shelf, J. Geophys. Res. Biogeosci., 119, 2082–2094, doi:10.1002/2014JG002685.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2014JG002685/abstract

Abstract: "Thawing subsea permafrost controls methane release from the Russian Arctic shelf having a considerable impact on the climate-sensitive Arctic environment. Expulsions of methane from shallow Russian Arctic shelf areas may continue to rise in response to intense degradation of relict subsea permafrost. Here we show modeling of the permafrost evolution from the Late Pleistocene to present time at the West Yamal shelf. Modeling results suggest a highly dynamic permafrost system that directly responds to even minor variations of lower and upper boundary conditions, e.g., geothermal heat flux from below and/or bottom water temperature changes from above permafrost. Scenarios of permafrost evolution show a potentially nearest landward modern extent of the permafrost at the West Yamal shelf limited by ~17 m isobaths, whereas its farthest seaward extent coincides with ~100 m isobaths. The model also predicts seaward tapering of relict permafrost with a maximal thickness of 275–390 m near the shoreline. Previous field observations detected extensive emissions of free gas into the water column at the transition zone between today's shallow water permafrost (<20 m) and deeper water nonpermafrost areas (>20 m). The model adapts well to corresponding heat flux and ocean temperature data, providing crucial information about the modern permafrost conditions. It shows current locations of upper and lower permafrost boundaries and evidences for possible release of methane from the seabed to the hydrosphere in a warming Arctic."

Also see:

http://phys.org/news/2014-12-methane-leaking-permafrost-offshore-siberia.html

Extract: "Portnov used mathematical models to map the evolution of the permafrost, and thus calculate its degradation since the end of the last ice age. The evolution of permafrost gives indication to what may happen to it in the future.
If the bottom ocean temperature is 0,5°C, the maximal possible permafrost thickness would likely take 9000 years to thaw. But if this temperature increases, the process would go much faster, because the thawing also happens from the top down.
"If the temperature of the oceans increases by two degrees as suggested by some reports, it will accelerate the thawing to the extreme. A warming climate could lead to an explosive gas release from the shallow areas."
Permafrost keeps the free methane gas in the sediments. But it also stabilizes gas hydrates, ice-like structures that usually need high pressure and low temperature to form.
"Gas hydrates normally form in water depths over 300 meters, because they depend on high pressure. But under permafrost the gas hydrate may stay stable even where the pressure is not that high, because of the constantly low temperatures."
Gas hydrates contain huge amount of methane gas, and it is destabilization of these that is believed to have caused the craters on the Yamal Peninsula."

On a related matter, the linked article reported (see the following quote) on the findings from cores that indicated two carbon pulses during the PETM, with the first one smaller than the second; which raises the possibility the with strong forcing, positive feedback mechanisms (particularly from methane hydrates) may be stronger than previously thought:

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/earths-future-ancient-warming-gives-ominous-peek-climate-change-n268721
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 02:20:49 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #183 on: December 30, 2014, 11:28:24 PM »
I'm well aware of the Portnov studies, and I'm also aware that he said rapid degradation and methane release "could" happen. He never said "should". You're making assumptions on his work.

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #184 on: December 31, 2014, 02:21:33 AM »
I'm well aware of the Portnov studies, and I'm also aware that he said rapid degradation and methane release "could" happen. He never said "should". You're making assumptions on his work.

I have edited the text to change "should" to "should likely".
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #185 on: December 31, 2014, 02:52:36 AM »
In other words, an abrupt release of methane is not certain, but it's more likely than previously thought?

AbruptSLR

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #186 on: December 31, 2014, 03:02:00 AM »
Meaning that an abrupt release of methane is not certain, but that compute models provide a likely confidence level (see the IPCC definitions for a likely CL) that within the next few decades the ocean water temperature at the seafloor in this area should likely increase from about 0.5 C to about 2.5 C; which in-turn increases the risk of accelerating methane releases from the Arctic seafloor.

Note that it impossible to make firm predictions about future climate change; which in my book means that we should adopt a "Precautionary Principle" approach to these risks.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #187 on: December 31, 2014, 03:24:35 AM »
You're talking about the Arctic Ocean in general and not just Yamal, right?

tombond

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #188 on: December 31, 2014, 03:41:35 AM »
Note that it impossible to make firm predictions about future climate change; which in my book means that we should adopt a "Precautionary Principle" approach to these risks.

Fully agree as any simple risk analysis will show that the likelihood of future climate change is almost certain and the consequences will be catastrophic.

Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #189 on: December 31, 2014, 03:46:02 AM »
I agree about future climate change being certain, but the consequences being catastrophic part is up for debate. The world's not just going to sit back and continue business as usual. That's simply not going to happen

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #190 on: December 31, 2014, 05:32:39 AM »
These threads are being overcome by trolls. Please join me in not feeding the same. Thank you, and happy new year.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #191 on: December 31, 2014, 05:55:40 AM »
I'm not a troll man. That's just being insulting

Sleepy

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #192 on: December 31, 2014, 10:23:18 AM »
I agree about future climate change being certain, but the consequences being catastrophic part is up for debate. The world's not just going to sit back and continue business as usual. That's simply not going to happen

But it is continuing with BAU.
My country is crowded with opinions like yours. I don't comment much, but wrote a small one above, regarding one of the greenest nations in the world.
http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1020.msg41849.html#msg41849
Even Hansen praised us earlier. I don't, I live here. We are not doing much, just talking.

As this is the last day of 2014, I would like to wish you all a happy new year!

Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #193 on: December 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM »
At the moment yes. But it's not going to continue for much longer. The U.S. has already cut emissions by 10 percent and is on track for more, to say nothing of the eu promising 40 percent cuts. Russia and China are on board as well, so the future is not all bleak

John_The_Elder

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #194 on: December 31, 2014, 04:26:29 PM »
If the USA is simply exporting its carbon footprint to China, they are not helping in the global reduction. As USA emissions go down , China are going up. An interesting article at: http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2013/11/19/us-carbon-dioxide-emissions-continue-dramatic-decline-2013
Happy New Year to all.
John

Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #195 on: December 31, 2014, 04:54:04 PM »
No offense man, but something from Heartland isn't exactly the most reliable thing in the world. And there's no way all the reduction is due to exporting, if even that much is

Shared Humanity

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #196 on: December 31, 2014, 05:07:27 PM »
I agree about future climate change being certain, but the consequences being catastrophic part is up for debate. The world's not just going to sit back and continue business as usual. That's simply not going to happen

Notwithstanding governments proclaiming aggressive new targeted reductions in emissions, all indications are for a continuing growth in emissions.

Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #197 on: December 31, 2014, 05:59:58 PM »
Perhaps, but not for a very long time

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #198 on: January 01, 2015, 12:16:27 AM »
A study by Peters et al 2012 show that the USA equivalent CO2 emissions have in fact increased by 7% (2007-2012) when trade is taken into account. American consumption of goods manufactured overseas is increasing.
See Slide #8 fro graph
http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/sites/default/files/recent_trends_in_carbon_emissions_and_sharing_a_quota_of_cumulative_emissions_0.pdf#page=7&zoom=50,-828,216

http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/sites/default/files/recent_trends_in_carbon_emissions_and_sharing_a_quota_of_cumulative_emissions_0.pdf#page=7&zoom=50,-828,216

John

Bryantfinlay

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Re: IPCC possible scenario: 9 C over next century or so
« Reply #199 on: January 01, 2015, 01:46:24 AM »
Interesting post. I'll have to amend my statement to say that domestic emissions have decreased.