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TeaPotty

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #250 on: November 11, 2014, 05:41:00 PM »
In response to the article i posted & quoted in the previous post (Scientists, Speak Up On Climate Change), Michael Mann has tweeted that his response is a previous Op-Ed of his in the NY Times:

If You See Something, Say Something
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/19/opinion/sunday/if-you-see-something-say-something.html



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How will history judge us if we watch the threat unfold before our eyes, but fail to communicate the urgency of acting to avert potential disaster? How would I explain to the future children of my 8-year-old daughter that their grandfather saw the threat, but didn’t speak up in time?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 05:47:26 PM by TeaPotty »

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #251 on: November 11, 2014, 07:08:16 PM »
Yes, Mann and others like him are courageous fighters, since the flak from the vested interests who want to shoot the messengers is maybe stronger than ever:
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-11-10/why-warnings-on-climate-spark-aggressive-denials#.VGIE3hdGobg.facebook

At the same time, it's not new as scientists and dissidents like Galilei, Chomsky and others can testify.

jai mitchell

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #252 on: November 11, 2014, 07:53:29 PM »
Steven,

I don't know why but for some reason, your posts seemed on-topic??  well, I have migrated them as well but see what you are saying and will respond there.
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Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #253 on: November 11, 2014, 07:59:26 PM »
Also see the AAAS-brochure 'What We Know: Reality, Risks, and Response to Climate Change':
http://whatweknow.aaas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/whatweknow_website.pdf

Kerry Emanuel is one of the authors and wrote an op-ed on 'tail risk vs alarmism':
http://climatechangenationalforum.org/tail-risk-vs-alarmism/

Jim Hansen of course was first (?) in speaking on the dangers of scientific reticence in 2007:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2007/05/25/201445/yet-another-must-read-by-james-hansen/

Or were there earlier attempts to speak on this issue?

jai mitchell

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #254 on: November 11, 2014, 08:08:34 PM »
If the Caldeira paper is true and if we are going to reach ice free arctic summers at current concentrations (400ppmv) then the world will experience an equivalent of a doubling of CO2  effective forcing at current concentrations.

AND

At 560ppmv we will likely see annual ice free arctic states and an effective quadrupling of CO2 effective forcing.

I wonder if this paper will receive any traction in the popular media/scientific discourse.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #255 on: November 11, 2014, 09:29:25 PM »
In keeping with jai's post about the influence of changes in Arctic albedo on climate sensitivity.  It's important to note that the surface temperature change is proportional to the climate sensitivity and radiative forcing (in W m-2), regardless of the source of the energy imbalance.  The climate sensitivity to different radiative forcings differs depending on the efficacy of the forcing (see the attached plot from AR4 and the associate quote):  Per AR4: "Efficacy (E) is defined as the ratio of the climate sensitivity parameter for a given forcing agent (λi) to the climate sensitivity parameter for CO2 changesthat is, Ei = λi / λCO2 ..."

The attached AR4 plot shows that the efficacy of long lived GHGs is higher than for solar radiative forcing; therefore, unless climate sensitivity is sufficiently high it is very difficult to explain paleo cases of changes between glacial and interglacial periods that were initially driven by changes in solar radiative forcing.  Therefore, it is virtually impossible to believe in low values of climate sensitivity.

edit: The caption for the AR4 figure is: "Efficacies as calculated by several GCM models for realistic changes in RF agents. Letters are centred on efficacy value and refer to the literature study that the value is taken from (see text of Section 2.8.5 for details and further discussion). In each RF category, only one result is taken per model or model formulation. Cloud-albedo efficacies are evaluated in two ways: the standard letters include cloud lifetime effects in the efficacy term and the letters with asterisks exclude these effects. Studies assessed in the figure are: a) Hansen et al. (2005); b) Wang et al. (1991); c) Wang et al. (1992); d) Govindasamy et al. (2001b); e) Lohmann and Feichter (2005); f) Forster et al. (2000); g) Joshi et al. (2003; see also Stuber et al., 2001a); h) Gregory et al. (2004); j) Sokolov (2006); k) Cook and Highwood (2004); m) Mickley et al. (2004); n) Rotstayn and Penner (2001); o) Roberts and Jones (2004) and p) Williams et al."
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 09:44:17 PM by AbruptSLR »
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TeaPotty

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #256 on: November 11, 2014, 09:56:06 PM »
If the Caldeira paper is true and if we are going to reach ice free arctic summers at current concentrations (400ppmv) then the world will experience an equivalent of a doubling of CO2  effective forcing at current concentrations.

AND

At 560ppmv we will likely see annual ice free arctic states and an effective quadrupling of CO2 effective forcing.

I wonder if this paper will receive any traction in the popular media/scientific discourse.

You would think mainstream and IPCC scientists would be vocal about the numerous feedback mechanisms discovered since the recent report's research submission deadline ended. Either they are ignorant, which I don't see as likely, or they have other motivations and cultural biases effectively silencing them.

Our near-certain failure on the 2C goal should lead us to recognize that our approach is indeed a failure. If we do not take very strong action in this time period, then all remaining options on the table will be extreme by 2020.

I am sure most people can see the difficulty of organizing activists to avoid a 4C world and its consequences. For some, there would already be little hope for a future livable climate, and many others may find themselves climate refugees in the near-future. Once political communication breaks down...

AbruptSLR

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #257 on: November 11, 2014, 10:19:00 PM »

In the linked Real Climate article, Michael E. Mann and Gavin Schmidt, discuss the Sherwood et al 2014 paper on climate sensitivity.  The attached image (see caption below) indicates that the effective ECS that Sherwood et al 2014 discuss is in the range of 4 C; however, as the following extract indicates the true ECS is about 10% higher than the value Sherwood et al 2014 present; which implies that the true ECS is likely in the range of 4.4 C.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2014/01/a-bit-more-sensitive/

Sherwood, S.C., Bony, S. and Dufresne, J.-L., (2014) "Spread in model climate sensitivity traced to atmospheric convective mixing", Nature; Volume: 505, pp 37–42, doi:10.1038/nature12829

Extracts: "First, ECS is the long term (multi-century) equilibrium response to a doubling of CO2 in an coupled ocean-atmosphere model. It doesn’t include many feedbacks associated with ‘slow’ processes (such as ice sheets, or vegetation, or the carbon cycle). See our earlier discussion for different definitions. Second, Sherwood et al are using a particular estimate of the ‘effective’ ECS in their analysis of the CMIP5 models. This estimate follows from the method used in Andrews et al (2011), but is subtly different than the ‘true’ ECS, since it uses a linear extrapolation from a relatively short period in the abrupt 4xCO2 experiments. In the case of the GISS models, the effective ECS is about 10% smaller than the ‘true’ value, however this distinction should not really affect their conclusions."

Caption: "Figure (derived from Sherwood et al, fig. 5c) showing the relationship between the models’ estimate of Lower Tropospheric Mixing (LTMI) and sensitivity, along with estimates of the same metric from radiosondes and the MERRA and ERA-Interim reanalyses."
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Michael Hauber

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #258 on: November 11, 2014, 10:42:42 PM »

You would think mainstream and IPCC scientists would be vocal about the numerous feedback mechanisms discovered since the recent report's research submission deadline ended. Either they are ignorant, which I don't see as likely, or they have other motivations and cultural biases effectively silencing them.


What new feedback mechanisms?  Methane has been known for many years and is discussed extensively in the IPCC report.  The 2 degrees due to long wave infra-red is not so much a new mechamism, but a possible adjustment to the Arctic albedo mechanism that has been known about for decades.  Note that the 2 degrees is the maximum regional difference between a model run with and without adjusted long wave infra-red values.  There are substantial negative differences as well, and its not clear from the map, and not stated in the paper whether the difference for the globe as a whole is even positive at all, let alone substantial.

Are there any other undiscovered feedback mechanisms being discussed here that I've missed?

And what about possible negative feedback mechanisms?  One of the possible sources of the recent cooling pause is the observation of increased trades in the Pacific.  Considering that the trade winds had increased to well above what had been observed previously it seems reasonable to speculate that this may have been directly caused by AGW and is therefore a negative feedback mechanisms. 

I'm sure as scientists continue to understand climate better they will continue to uncover many changes that will have both negative and positive impacts on our estimates of climate sensitivity.  If you just cherry pick all the reasons for higher sensitivity and ignore the reasons for lower sensitivity then you are likely to unnecessarily alarm yourself.  If you just cherry pick all the reasons for lower sensitivity and ignore the reasons for higher sensitivity then you become a luke-warmer.

Consider that over more than 30 years since Charney first estimated sensitivity at about 3 degrees climate science has come along in leaps and bounds and many changes to our understanding have been made.  Yet sensitivity is still estimated at about 3 degrees.  No wonder some scientists claim that 'the science is settled', even though the details are ever changing.
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jai mitchell

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #259 on: November 11, 2014, 10:45:06 PM »
Why haven't scientists worked harder to resolve the fact that we are CURRENTLY experiencing tropical rainforest collapse under changes in precipitation regimes, arctic sea ice collapse and significant stressors to boreal terrestrial carbon pools (peat and forest) under only 400 ppmv and SIGNIFICANT negative forcing effects from short-lived aerosols and cloud effects???

I mean, it is so completely obvious!  we have passed 4C of warming at current GHG forcing values and short (<100 year) feedbacks. 

I guess nobody wants to be a downer. . .
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jai mitchell

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #260 on: November 11, 2014, 11:03:09 PM »
The 2 degrees due to long wave infra-red is not so much a new mechamism, but a possible adjustment to the Arctic albedo mechanism that has been known about for decades. 

Reference please. 

No wonder some scientists claim that 'the science is settled', even though the details are ever changing.

This is a denialist talking point, I think you should be sure not to use it in the future, I mean

1.  It has no real meaning (no real scientist would ever claim that a body of science is "settled"
2.  The term "settle" means in this case to settle a disagreement
3.  The disagreement, not contextualized in your statement is then left open to the reader to decide.
4.  In the end even the use of this in dialogue is nonsensical at best, and promotes denialism (through a reader's ignorance/deception) at worst.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 02:35:37 AM by jai mitchell »
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Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #261 on: November 11, 2014, 11:27:56 PM »

I'm sure as scientists continue to understand climate better they will continue to uncover many changes that will have both negative and positive impacts on our estimates of climate sensitivity. If you just cherry pick all the reasons for higher sensitivity and ignore the reasons for lower sensitivity then you are likely to unnecessarily alarm yourself. If you just cherry pick all the reasons for lower sensitivity and ignore the reasons for higher sensitivity then you become a luke-warmer.

Consider that over more than 30 years since Charney first estimated sensitivity at about 3 degrees climate science has come along in leaps and bounds and many changes to our understanding have been made. Yet sensitivity is still estimated at about 3 degrees. No wonder some scientists claim that 'the science is settled', even though the details are ever changing.

The problem is we cannot be sure that sensitivity will be about 3 degrees. The risk that it will turn out to be substantially more seems real and alarming. Pointing this out is not cherry picking or alarmist. It is dangerous negligence to ignore or not take serious this risk.

Society at large is still underestimating the risks of global warming, whatever the reason or cause. That is endangering people now and later. This is immoral and against the law, even if courts have not recognized this yet, just like it took them a while to recognize racist policies were against the law.

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #262 on: November 12, 2014, 12:04:50 AM »
And remember how 'neoconservative' Dick Cheney sold the Iraq war: if there was one percent chance that Iraq had WMD, that was enough to justify bombing and invading the country, even if (almost) all the experts said Iraq did not have WMD and even if unilateral war was clearly illegal, and even if it was very clear all along control over oil was the main motive for that war.
 
Now we have say a one, five, ten, fifty percent or even higher chance of catastrophic global warming, depending on what you consider to be catastrophic, according to (almost) all the experts. Even John Kerry calls global warming perhaps the most dangerous WMD, and still progress in climate policy is very slow, even when international law clearly demands the US and other rich countries to adopt much stronger climate policies.

I'm sure Machiavelli would be able to explain this asymmetry.

wili

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #263 on: November 12, 2014, 01:47:18 AM »
LvdL, good point, well put.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

jai mitchell

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #264 on: November 12, 2014, 02:20:25 AM »
Just came out yesterday:

Positive albedo changes are the real drivers of climate change on a decadal scale.

Quote
in those few models with a weak SW feedback, OLR takes centuries to recover, and energy accumulation is dominated by reduced OLR. Observational constraints of radiative feedbacks—from satellite radiation and surface temperature data—suggest an OLR recovery timescale of decades or less, consistent with the majority of GCMs. Altogether, these results suggest that, although greenhouse gas forcing predominantly acts to reduce OLR, the resulting global warming is likely caused by enhanced ASR.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/11/05/1412190111.abstract

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viddaloo

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #265 on: November 12, 2014, 03:44:42 AM »
Where are you?

Right here with you, TeaPotty, fighting the good fight.

I don't think we can win it, though. Stupidity will always win out against reason, it seems, but at least we can point out the stupor and how esteemed leaders have absolutely no legitimacy, and that they are, in fact, leading us all right over the cliff.
[]

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #266 on: November 12, 2014, 07:58:47 AM »
Tnx, wili.

Woke up this morning to the news of a US-China climate deal:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/nov/12/china-and-us-make-carbon-pledge

A small step for mankind, a big step for them?

Lennart van der Linde

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S.Pansa

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #268 on: November 12, 2014, 09:40:37 AM »
Tnx, wili.

Woke up this morning to the news of a US-China climate deal:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/nov/12/china-and-us-make-carbon-pledge

A small step for mankind, a big step for them?

Hi Lennart,

thanks for the link. Well, first I thought this is really good news when I read this form the Guardian Article:

Quote
... The United States has pledged to cut its emissions to 26-28% below 2005 levels by 2025 ... .

But when I had a quick look at the numbers I was a bit shocked. If my calculations are right this translates to emission cuts of 0.6% per year  - which would be ridiculously low. Can this be right?
 
1) 2005 emissions were 7.109 Mt/year in the US (from here - http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/ghg_report/pdf/0573%282009%29.pdf , page 1)

2) 2015 emissions are estimated to be 5436 Mt from here (http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=18611)

3) A 28% reduction from 7109 Mt would be 5119 Mt. So the necessary reductions would be 317Mt or about 32 Mt per year, which is around 0.6% per year (see chart below for an  illustration). What am I missing here? I am sure I have made some error here.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 09:46:32 AM by S.Pansa »

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #269 on: November 12, 2014, 10:24:03 AM »
3) A 28% reduction from 7109 Mt would be 5119 Mt. So the necessary reductions would be 317Mt or about 32 Mt per year, which is around 0.6% per year (see chart below for an  illustration). What am I missing here? I am sure I have made some error here.

I wouldn't be suprised if you're right. But right or wrong, the US-target for 2025 is still way below what the science says is necessary to have a good chance to stay below 2 degrees, let alone below 1.5 degrees. It should be more like 60% reduction in 2025.

China peaking in 2030 is maybe a more ambitious and just target, although probably not enough for a good chance at 2 or 1.5 degrees. Let's see what someone like Kevin Anderson has to say.

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #270 on: November 12, 2014, 10:35:22 AM »
Malte Meinshausen says it's not good enough, but just compared to the US ambition of 30% reduction in 2025 a few years ago:
https://twitter.com/meinshausen/status/532417145993306112

What are other scientists saying?

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #271 on: November 12, 2014, 11:23:14 AM »
This is an interview with Kevin Anderson a few days ago on China Dialogue:
https://www.chinadialogue.net/article/show/single/en/7473-The-world-is-heading-towards-a-weak-and-irrelevant-deal-on-climate-change

He says the EU (and also US, presumably) should reduce at least 80% by 2030 and China should peak by 2025, to have a good chance of staying below 2 degrees.

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #272 on: November 12, 2014, 11:47:27 AM »
Also see this Climate Action Tracker report on the US and China:
http://climateactiontracker.org/assets/publications/briefing_papers/CAT_briefing_China_and_the_US__how_does_their_climate_action_compare.pdf

They seem to ask more ambition from China than from the US.

Compare this however, to this recent open letter by Kevin Anderson to the UK prime minister:
http://kevinanderson.info/blog/letter-to-the-pm-outlining-how-2c-demands-an-80-cut-in-eu-emissions-by-2030/

I'm not sure why the Climate Action Tracker report seems to be more conservative than Anderson's open letter.

S.Pansa

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #273 on: November 12, 2014, 11:48:42 AM »
Tnx, wili.

Woke up this morning to the news of a US-China climate deal:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/nov/12/china-and-us-make-carbon-pledge

A small step for mankind, a big step for them?

Hi Lennart,

thanks for the link. Well, first I thought this is really good news when I read this form the Guardian Article:

Quote
... The United States has pledged to cut its emissions to 26-28% below 2005 levels by 2025 ... .

But when I had a quick look at the numbers I was a bit shocked. If my calculations are right this translates to emission cuts of 0.6% per year  - which would be ridiculously low. Can this be right?
 
1) 2005 emissions were 7.109 Mt/year in the US (from here - http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/ghg_report/pdf/0573%282009%29.pdf , page 1)

2) 2015 emissions are estimated to be 5436 Mt from here (http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=18611)

3) A 28% reduction from 7109 Mt would be 5119 Mt. So the necessary reductions would be 317Mt or about 32 Mt per year, which is around 0.6% per year (see chart below for an  illustration). What am I missing here? I am sure I have made some error here.

My numbers are indeed bollocks, I have confused CO2e and CO2 emissions ::)

US CO2 emissions in 2005 were 6055 Mt and not 7109. So the emissions target would be 4360 Mt and not 5119, which would be reduction of 2% per year and not just 0,6%. 

This looks more 'ambitious' and the quiet enthusiasm in the Guardian article is not completely off the marks. Of course, as Lennarts link to the interview with K. Anderson shows, it is no even close to what is actually needed (-10% p.a. from Annex 1 countries).

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #274 on: November 12, 2014, 01:04:41 PM »
Michael Oppenheimer sees the deal as 'hugely important':
https://twitter.com/ClimateOpp/status/532490650977976321

As a first step to more ambitious policies, I suppose.

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #275 on: November 12, 2014, 01:39:43 PM »
I lean strongly towards the view point of this article from John Ibbitson (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/the-next-climate-deal-is-doomed-but-our-planet-isnt-doomed-yet/article21300990/); hat-tip to Sigmetnow who posted the link over at the UN Climate Treaty thread.

The deal sounds more like a lip service, especially if we look at the actual energy policy in the G20 nations, shown in the figure below -  taken from this recent report (http://www.odi.org/g20-fossil-fuel-subsidies). I hope I am wrong tough and there is some momentum building up.

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #276 on: November 12, 2014, 01:50:40 PM »
Fine analysis. Except it speaks of 'sacrifice' when talking about the 'most ambitious policies found anywhere in the world today'. But where is the sacrifice in the countries that have those policies?

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #277 on: November 12, 2014, 09:18:54 PM »
The 2 degrees due to long wave infra-red is not so much a new mechamism, but a possible adjustment to the Arctic albedo mechanism that has been known about for decades. 

Reference please. 

Hansen 81 et al

Just to be clear - the adjustment is new, the feedback mechanism of Arctic Albedo has been known about for decades.
No wonder some scientists claim that 'the science is settled', even though the details are ever changing.


This is a denialist talking point, I think you should be sure not to use it in the future, I mean

1.  It has no real meaning (no real scientist would ever claim that a body of science is "settled"
2.  The term "settle" means in this case to settle a disagreement
3.  The disagreement, not contextualized in your statement is then left open to the reader to decide.
4.  In the end even the use of this in dialogue is nonsensical at best, and promotes denialism (through a reader's ignorance/deception) at worst.

Wikipedia Article

Al Gore used the words science is settled.  Others have made statements of similar strength.  Most on the wikipedia list are economists or politicians but Kurt Cuffey is a geography professor.

The instance I was thinking of though was Hansen's claim that 'climate sensitivity is really nailed' as evidenced by nature
Climate change:  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, expect the middle.

Michael Hauber

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #278 on: November 12, 2014, 09:26:21 PM »

The problem is we cannot be sure that sensitivity will be about 3 degrees. The risk that it will turn out to be substantially more seems real and alarming. Pointing this out is not cherry picking or alarmist. It is dangerous negligence to ignore or not take serious this risk.


Agreed.  IPCC say 1.5-4.5 and allow a 15% chance it may be higher than 4.5.  However some on this thread have basically accused the IPCC of fraud, have stated that the possibility that sensitivity may be lower than 3 degrees is nonsense etc
Climate change:  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, expect the middle.

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #279 on: November 12, 2014, 10:52:43 PM »

The instance I was thinking of though was Hansen's claim that 'climate sensitivity is really nailed' as evidenced by nature

While it is true that Hansen made the following statement in this link:

http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0905/full/climate.2009.41.html

Extract: "… James Hansen, director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, said, "The climate sensitivity is really nailed. It is three degrees for doubled CO2, plus or minus half a degree." The method Hansen draws on — looking at the state of the planet during the last ice age, 20 thousand years ago — does have advantages. "The physics is exact. It is not modelled," Hansen argues. "All of the feedbacks operate correctly.""

Nevertheless, in that statement Hansen was only talking about climate sensitivity from fast feedback mechanisms as is made very clear by the attached image from Hansen & Sato (2012) that shows that changes in albedo (changes in ASR) can increase the effective climate sensitivity to something in the neighborhood of 5.5 to 6 C; and jai has repeatedly pointed out that the polar albedo can (and likely will) change significantly in only a few decades.
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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #280 on: November 12, 2014, 11:39:56 PM »
With regard to my Reply #279, and for those not used to thinking in terms of changes in radiative forcing (W/sq m), I attach the following image (which for temperature projections assumes fast feedback climate sensitivity of 3 C) for RCP 8.5 and RCP 3/2.6.  Not that the 8.5 and the 2.6 means the radiative forcing (W/sq m) for these two scenarios by 2100; while the 3 means that RCP 3/2.6 is assumed to have a peak radiative forcing around 2045 and which is assumed to thereafter decline.

Most serious people believe that the chances of following RCP 3/2.6 are becoming vanishingly small (including the Union of Concerned Scientists); however Hansen & Sato (2012)'s plot makes it clear that as the radiative forcing exceeds the Holocene norm (say pre-industrial) by 3 W/sq m, then the effective climate sensitivity could shot-up to between 5.5 and 6 C as soon as the polar albedo drops (which is related to polar amplification), due to a reduction in sea ice and snow extent.
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crandles

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #281 on: November 13, 2014, 12:12:29 AM »
The 2 degrees due to long wave infra-red is not so much a new mechamism, but a possible adjustment to the Arctic albedo mechanism that has been known about for decades. 

Reference please. 

Hansen 81 et al

Just to be clear - the adjustment is new, the feedback mechanism of Arctic Albedo has been known about for decades.


>the feedback mechanism of Arctic Albedo has been known about for decades.

true, ...

but the new adjustment is about difference in emissivity in LW of ocean vs ice. Albedo is about reflection of SW solar radiation. Albedo effect works during daylight, this new adjustment can work after sunset, so it seems dubious to bundle them together.

Perhaps the answer is that it isn't a new feedback in nature because nature doesn't turn it on when we discover it. It is an error in the models - an opportunity to improve the models to give them more realistic Arctic amplification.

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #282 on: November 13, 2014, 05:02:06 AM »

The instance I was thinking of though was Hansen's claim that 'climate sensitivity is really nailed' as evidenced by nature

While it is true that Hansen made the following statement in this link:

http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0905/full/climate.2009.41.html

Extract: "… James Hansen, director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, said, "The climate sensitivity is really nailed. It is three degrees for doubled CO2, plus or minus half a degree." The method Hansen draws on — looking at the state of the planet during the last ice age, 20 thousand years ago — does have advantages. "The physics is exact. It is not modelled," Hansen argues. "All of the feedbacks operate correctly.""

Nevertheless, in that statement Hansen was only talking about climate sensitivity from fast feedback mechanisms as is made very clear by the attached image from Hansen & Sato (2012) that shows that changes in albedo (changes in ASR) can increase the effective climate sensitivity to something in the neighborhood of 5.5 to 6 C; and jai has repeatedly pointed out that the polar albedo can (and likely will) change significantly in only a few decades.

not only that ASLR but the Caldeira paper indicated that an ice-free arctic was equivalent to an additional 3+ W/m^2 (almost as much as a CO2 doubling).

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/JCLI-D-14-00042.1



And the new evidence of far infrared feedbacks from open oceans (vs. sea ice) indicate that the total accumulated forcing from year around ice free conditions are more than the Caldeira paper.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/10/29/1413640111.abstract

Finally, the last paper that I posted indicates that climate regime changes in ASR from effects not of surface albedo (water vapor mostly) is a much larger positive feedback than previously understood.  If these are all correct then it explains why we are experiencing accelerated ice loss and the last one especially shows that aerosols have a much greater effect than previously thought.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/11/05/1412190111.abstract

it is clear that the upper bound of ECS must be raised significantly.  Our only hope of remaining below 2C is to lower concentrations back down to 350ppmv, even then we will have to engage in geoengineering.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 06:47:00 AM by jai mitchell »
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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #283 on: November 13, 2014, 05:15:46 AM »
Al Gore used the words science is settled.  Others have made statements of similar strength.  Most on the wikipedia list are economists or politicians but Kurt Cuffey is a geography professor.

Quote
The science is settled, Gore told the lawmakers. Carbon-dioxide emissions — from cars, power plants, buildings and other sources — are heating the Earth's atmosphere.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9047642

Context is everything.
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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #284 on: November 13, 2014, 04:20:48 PM »
...Hansen was only talking about climate sensitivity from fast feedback mechanisms as is made very clear by the attached image from Hansen & Sato (2012) that shows that changes in albedo (changes in ASR) can increase the effective climate sensitivity to something in the neighborhood of 5.5 to 6 C; and jai has repeatedly pointed out that the polar albedo can (and likely will) change significantly in only a few decades.




Surface albedo in the above graph refers to the continental ice sheets, and also to the surface albedo changes due to vegetation change, as discussed in the Hansen and Sato paper.

Note that snow and sea ice feedbacks are fast feedbacks, so they are already included in the fast-feedback climate sensitivity in the graph.
 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 04:27:15 PM by Steven »

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #285 on: November 13, 2014, 04:32:33 PM »

The problem is we cannot be sure that sensitivity will be about 3 degrees. The risk that it will turn out to be substantially more seems real and alarming. Pointing this out is not cherry picking or alarmist. It is dangerous negligence to ignore or not take serious this risk.


Agreed.  IPCC say 1.5-4.5 and allow a 15% chance it may be higher than 4.5.  However some on this thread have basically accused the IPCC of fraud, have stated that the possibility that sensitivity may be lower than 3 degrees is nonsense etc

The IPCC AR5 confidence level ranges only summarize the state of the literature at the time that the AR5 report was published.  The IPCC does no original research, thus when they produce confidence level ranges based on the literature they include errors associated with: (a) researchers who error on the side of least drama; (b) climate sensitivity values that are biased by instrument readings during the faux hiatus period to be too low; (c) paleo values that do not reflect the current anthropogenic radiative forcing; which has a rate of growth that is over 100 times faster than during any reported paleo period; (d) mixing effective values with true values (ie reporting climate sensitivity values that include different combinations of feedback mechanisms), (e) climate sensitivity values that do not include feedback from factors that scientists did not adequately understand before AR5 was produced such as that influence of water vapor on absorbed solar radiation (ASR), etc; and (f) the fact that climate sensitivity values are currently continuously increasing as various feedback factors are activated by global warming (such as the reduction in albedo associated with Arctic Amplification), and will continue to increase as long as global warming continues.

For example Shindell (2014) showed that the low climate sensitivity values included in AR5 are physically not possible, but the IPCC does not correct for this consideration; thus any confidence level ranges given by the IPCC should at best be considered as lower bound ranges.  Furthermore, as we continue along our current RCP 8.5 pathway higher values of climate sensitivity will become locked in for at least several centuries, and the probability distribution functions assumed by AR5 will be scaled-up upward in the future.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 05:26:19 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Lennart van der Linde

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #286 on: November 13, 2014, 04:53:25 PM »
Also of interest is table 1 below from Hansen & Sato's 2012 paper on Paleo Climate Implications.

The paleo approach in principle includes all feedbacks. The crucial question seems to be how these feedbacks may enforce each other under the current and future unnaturally strong GHG-forcing. What used to be slow feedbacks may now turn out to be not such slow feedbacks.

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #287 on: November 13, 2014, 05:16:03 PM »
may now turn out to be not such slow feedbacks.




As discussed previously, we have the potential to shoot through 12C sometime around 2150.
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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #288 on: November 13, 2014, 05:19:34 PM »
...Hansen was only talking about climate sensitivity from fast feedback mechanisms as is made very clear by the attached image from Hansen & Sato (2012) that shows that changes in albedo (changes in ASR) can increase the effective climate sensitivity to something in the neighborhood of 5.5 to 6 C; and jai has repeatedly pointed out that the polar albedo can (and likely will) change significantly in only a few decades.


Note that snow and sea ice feedbacks are fast feedbacks, so they are already included in the fast-feedback climate sensitivity in the graph.

Steven,
As both Lennart and jai are illustrating, what one takes as fast vs slow is a matter of context as Hansen & Sato 2012 deals with periods of millennia.  However, the following quotes (and the table that Lennart posted) from their 2012 paper make it clear that for today's case (with extremely high anthropogenic forcing) Hansen & Sato are proposing moving both surface albedo, and non-CO₂ gases, from the slow feedback category into the fast feedback category; which they indicate could increase the calculation of a quasi-equilibrium climate sensitivity value to values well about 6 C.

"Surface albedo is the first slow feedback that we add to fast feedbacks.

The next slow feedback that we add is the non-CO2 GHGs.

If non-CO2 trace gases are counted as a fast feedback, the fast-feedback sensitivity becomes 4°C for doubled CO2, and the Earth system sensitivity becomes 8°C for doubled CO2 with the surface albedo feedback included. The equilibrium climate sensitivity diagram (Fig. 7) is unchanged, except the numbers on the x-axis are reduced by the factor 0.75 with the a-axis being the CO2 forcing rather than the GHG forcing. These sensitivities apply for today's initial climate state and negative climate forcings; they are reduced for positive forcings, as discussed above. This sensitivity, non-CO2 gases included as a feedback, is the definition of Earth system sensitivity used by Royer et al. (2011), which may account for the high sensitivities that they estimate."
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jai mitchell

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #289 on: November 13, 2014, 05:46:51 PM »

Surface albedo in the above graph refers to the continental ice sheets, and also to the surface albedo changes due to vegetation change, as discussed in the Hansen and Sato paper.

Note that snow and sea ice feedbacks are fast feedbacks, so they are already included in the fast-feedback climate sensitivity in the graph.

Steven,

From the paper.

Quote
Minor exceptions, such as the fact that Arctic sea ice may disappear with a relatively small increase of climate forcing above the Holocene level, might put a small wave in the fast-feedback curve.

how do you reconcile the above with this new data

Quote
Results obtained here indicate that in this configuration of CESM (CAM4 coupled to a slab ocean and the dynamic–thermodynamic sea ice model CICE4), approximately 3 × 1012 m2 of sea ice is lost for each kelvin of global mean warming and approximately 0.1 W m−2 of “sea ice radiative forcing” is produced by each 1012 m2 of sea ice loss, yielding a value of −0.3 W m−2 K−1 for the sea ice contribution to the overall climate feedback parameter. Because sea ice area in the 1×CO2 control simulation is approximately 30 × 1012 m2, this suggests that complete loss of all sea ice from the 1×CO2 state would produce a radiative forcing of about 3 W m−2, which is somewhat less than, but of the same order of magnitude as, the regressed radiative forcing from a doubling of atmospheric CO2.




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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #290 on: November 13, 2014, 06:28:31 PM »

Surface albedo in the above graph refers to the continental ice sheets, and also to the surface albedo changes due to vegetation change, as discussed in the Hansen and Sato paper.

Note that snow and sea ice feedbacks are fast feedbacks, so they are already included in the fast-feedback climate sensitivity in the graph.


Steven,

From the paper.

Quote
Minor exceptions, such as the fact that Arctic sea ice may disappear with a relatively small increase of climate forcing above the Holocene level, might put a small wave in the fast-feedback curve.

how do you reconcile the above with this new data

Quote
Results obtained here indicate that in this configuration of CESM (CAM4 coupled to a slab ocean and the dynamic–thermodynamic sea ice model CICE4), approximately 3 × 1012 m2 of sea ice is lost for each kelvin of global mean warming and approximately 0.1 W m−2 of “sea ice radiative forcing” is produced by each 1012 m2 of sea ice loss, yielding a value of −0.3 W m−2 K−1 for the sea ice contribution to the overall climate feedback parameter. Because sea ice area in the 1×CO2 control simulation is approximately 30 × 1012 m2, this suggests that complete loss of all sea ice from the 1×CO2 state would produce a radiative forcing of about 3 W m−2, which is somewhat less than, but of the same order of magnitude as, the regressed radiative forcing from a doubling of atmospheric CO2.

The "small wave" in the fast feedback that Hansen & Sato 2012 are referring to is the bump in their Figure 7 that shows that that as the increase in radiative forcing (above pre-industrial) approaches 3 W/sq m (which is likely to occur by about 2045 per RCP 3/2.6, which is much slower than the path we are actually following), the fast feedback quasi-equilibrium climate sensitivity will be between 5.5 and 6 C (as I previously stated).  However, if we stay on the RCP 8.5 pathway we are at risk of switching to an equable climate that was last experienced about 39 million years ago (see the plot that jai provides in Reply #287), where the quasi-equilibrium climate sensitivity will equal, or exceed 8 C, as Hansen & Sato 2012 show as we approach a change of radiative forcing of about 8.5 W/sq m (ie the 8.5 in RCP 8.5 is 8.5 W/sq m by 2100).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 07:25:28 PM by AbruptSLR »
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jai mitchell

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #291 on: November 13, 2014, 06:38:26 PM »
or this one



temperature curves correspond to early and middle Eocene periods.
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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #292 on: November 13, 2014, 07:28:21 PM »
jai, I''m not sure I've seen that one before: reference?

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #293 on: November 13, 2014, 08:15:33 PM »
http://descentintotheicehouse.org.uk/home/greenhouse-climate/

[3] Bijl, P.K., Schouten, S., Sluijs, A., Reichart, G.-J., Zachos, J.C., and Brinkhuis, H., 2009, Early Palaeogene temperature evolution of the southwest Pacific Ocean: Nature, v. 461, p. 776-779.
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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #294 on: November 13, 2014, 10:35:03 PM »
The climate interactive organization has posted the attached figure showing the impact of the new China-USA carbon emission pledges as compared to RCP 8.5 (and what would happen if the rest of the world's countries were to follow suit):

http://www.climateinteractive.org/

However, this figure does not indicate that if these countries are slow in delivering carbon cut-backs then the absorbed solar radiation (ASR) increase associated largely with polar amplification will out-weigh the influence of the GHG emission reduction; thus potentially keeping the world on (or exceeding) the radiative forcing scenario represented by RCP 8.5 (leading to a probable equable climate before 2100).
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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #295 on: November 13, 2014, 10:35:43 PM »

The problem is we cannot be sure that sensitivity will be about 3 degrees. The risk that it will turn out to be substantially more seems real and alarming. Pointing this out is not cherry picking or alarmist. It is dangerous negligence to ignore or not take serious this risk.


Agreed.  IPCC say 1.5-4.5 and allow a 15% chance it may be higher than 4.5.  However some on this thread have basically accused the IPCC of fraud, have stated that the possibility that sensitivity may be lower than 3 degrees is nonsense etc

The IPCC AR5 confidence level ranges only summarize the state of the literature at the time that the AR5 report was published.  The IPCC does no original research, thus when they produce confidence level ranges based on the literature they include errors associated with: (a) researchers who error on the side of least drama; (b) climate sensitivity values that are biased by instrument readings during the faux hiatus period to be too low; (c) paleo values that do not reflect the current anthropogenic radiative forcing; which has a rate of growth that is over 100 times faster than during any reported paleo period; (d) mixing effective values with true values (ie reporting climate sensitivity values that include different combinations of feedback mechanisms), (e) climate sensitivity values that do not include feedback from factors that scientists did not adequately understand before AR5 was produced such as that influence of water vapor on absorbed solar radiation (ASR), etc; and (f) the fact that climate sensitivity values are currently continuously increasing as various feedback factors are activated by global warming (such as the reduction in albedo associated with Arctic Amplification), and will continue to increase as long as global warming continues.

For example Shindell (2014) showed that the low climate sensitivity values included in AR5 are physically not possible, but the IPCC does not correct for this consideration; thus any confidence level ranges given by the IPCC should at best be considered as lower bound ranges.  Furthermore, as we continue along our current RCP 8.5 pathway higher values of climate sensitivity will become locked in for at least several centuries, and the probability distribution functions assumed by AR5 will be scaled-up upward in the future.

Shindell(2014) claims that the low sensitivity values included in AR5 is 'very unlikely', not physically impossible.  (link)

Also note that Shindell is about transient climate sensitivity, not equilibrium sensitivity, and that Shindell does not find a climate sensitivity above IPCC, but rather moves the observation based estimates from being lower than the IPCC standard range to being roughly equivelant:



See more at Real Climate

Your argument overall are the mirror image of Nic Lewis.  He finds that climate sensitivity is lower than the IPCC range.  The heart of his argument is to pick the observation based estimates as the true estimates, find a fault or two with the observation estimates at the higher end, point out a few issues and uncertainties with the higher model and paleo estimates and uses this as an excuse to ignore those estimates all together so that he can pretend that all the evidence points to a lower estimate.  Some more at Skeptical Science


Your arguments are very much the mirror image of Nic Lewis
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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #296 on: November 13, 2014, 10:38:35 PM »

Most serious people believe that the chances of following RCP 3/2.6 are becoming vanishingly small (including the Union of Concerned Scientists);

Whereas only people with a sense of humour think that the chances of following rcp8.5 are even smaller than the chances of following RCP2.6.

Consider the deal struck between China and US for significant mitigation action.  Consider that for the first time last year China added more renewable energy to their grid than coal.
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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #297 on: November 13, 2014, 11:08:51 PM »
jai, thanks, interesting.

Als see Hollis et al 2012, especially their fig.2:
http://www.es.ucsc.edu/~jzachos/pubs/Hollis_etal_2012.pdf

There may be some overestimation in Bijl et al 2009, at higher latitudes? But who knows?

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #298 on: November 13, 2014, 11:15:56 PM »
Your argument overall are the mirror image of Nic Lewis.  He finds that climate sensitivity is lower than the IPCC range.  The heart of his argument is to pick the observation based estimates as the true estimates, find a fault or two with the observation estimates at the higher end, point out a few issues and uncertainties with the higher model and paleo estimates and uses this as an excuse to ignore those estimates all together so that he can pretend that all the evidence points to a lower estimate.  Some more at Skeptical Science

Your arguments are very much the mirror image of Nic Lewis

The difference is that Lewis risks not enough mitigation and adaptation, whereas the reverse approach stressing worst-case scenario's of AGW risks too much mitigation and adaptation, which on balance is a lesser risk, according to IPCC and most risks analists, it seems.

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Re: Conservative Scientists & its Consequences
« Reply #299 on: November 13, 2014, 11:16:07 PM »

Most serious people believe that the chances of following RCP 3/2.6 are becoming vanishingly small (including the Union of Concerned Scientists);

Whereas only people with a sense of humour think that the chances of following rcp8.5 are even smaller than the chances of following RCP2.6.

Consider the deal struck between China and US for significant mitigation action.  Consider that for the first time last year China added more renewable energy to their grid than coal.

The link from the following Scientific American article includes the following quote:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-u-s-china-climate-change-agreement/


Quote: "Plus, the new agreement is nowhere near ambitious enough to meet the reduction targets laid out in the most recent report of the IPCC. No country or league of countries—not even the E.U.—is on track to reduce pollution enough. Policy modeler Chris Hope of the University of Cambridge fed the new commitments plus the E.U. effort into a computer model under the assumption that other countries would continue to allow pollution to grow. He came out with "less than a 1 percent chance of keeping the rise in global mean temperatures below the iconic 2 [degree C] level in 2100. Most likely the rise will be about 3.8 [degrees C]." In other words, more needs to be done and China's level of striving to reach peak pollution before 2030 will prove crucial.
 
 The world still has a long way to go to combat climate change and even this new inadequate agreement will require some tough, perhaps impossible, efforts from the U.S. and China. "We're nowhere near the world we need to be in to achieve our most ambitious climate goals," says Valerie Karplus, director of the Tsinghua-M.I.T. China Energy and Climate Project. "We need to recognize that reality and think where do we go from here.""
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