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Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1900 on: March 25, 2017, 06:42:04 AM »
Politically do you actually think the US domestic bubble world is so mind numbingly self deluded that this neo-McCarthyist Russophobia stands a good chance of unseating or at least constraining Trump?
It's not obviously false at all, and there's nothing ludicrous about it.

Ha, I take it that's a "yes" then,  and your US domestic bubble world really is so mind numbingly self deluded that your ludicrously neo-McCarthyist Russophobia actually does stand some chance of unseating or constraining Trump, at least in your opinion.

As for whether I think Obama put sanctions on Russia with no evidence of meddling, well as there's absolutely no evidence of meddling that would actually seem to be the case. And yes, before you ask, I also think US presidents are totally capable of bare faced lying for political purposes, being politicians and all. I also have some old Iraqi WMD out the back shed you might be interested in.

The FBI says it is actively investigating, so where there's political smoke there's definitely political smoke. And Flynn was up to his eyeballs with foreign money, as was Manafort, along with just about every politician and lobbyist in the corrupt by design US political world, with of course the Clintons leading the foreign money pack by many tens of millions of dollars. But wait no! Forget the Clintons!! The Russians are coming ... THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING!!!

And all the while you fiddle with your mad delusions the world burns.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 10:59:36 AM by Zeug Gezeugt »

Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1901 on: March 25, 2017, 01:49:18 PM »
Quote
"..your US domestic bubble world really is so mind numbingly self deluded that your ludicrously neo-McCarthyist Russophobia actually does stand some chance of unseating or constraining Trump"

"...you yanks are seriously deluded"

"[Obama] was... a warmongering, mass murdering US Nazi"

"...you yanks really are all just crazy bastards"

"...your naive Russophobia is truly delusional"

"...while you fiddle with your mad delusions the world burns"

Tell us how you really feel. ;-)

I have to say, it takes a deft touch to turn a realistic conversation about an orange-hued man-child who will no doubt go down in history as The. Worst. President. Ever into an enthusiastically pro-Trump, pro-Russia, rabidly anti-Clinton, anti-Obama screed replete with Rightie fantasies such as Obama's secret Nazi leanings and HRC's involvement in the Benghazi "atrocities". (I kept waiting for a Pizzagate mention; is one forthcoming?)

Anyway, I just have to ask, because it's possible you may be confused as to who's in power: you're aware that the Clintons have stepped off the world stage and retired to their farm in upstate New York, aren't you? And that the golf-loving Tangerine Toddler is in fact the person with the nuclear codes? Because I feel it's important we establish that before we go any further down the deranged and many-chambered "It's still all Clinton's fault" rabbit hole.

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1902 on: March 25, 2017, 03:53:38 PM »
The sock-puppets have arrived....

wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1903 on: March 25, 2017, 04:29:08 PM »
To paraphrase the song:

Where are the sock puppets?
There ought to be sock puppets.
Don't bother,
They're here...


"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1904 on: March 25, 2017, 07:31:04 PM »
The linked article is entitled: ““SNL” predicted this: Eric Trump inadvertently spills the beans on his unethical relationship with his father”.  This provides evidence that Trump values his own profit more than the well-being of the nation/world.

http://www.salon.com/2017/03/24/saturday-night-live-predicted-this-eric-trump-spills-the-beans-on-his-unethical-relationship-with-his-father/

Eric admitted that he does discuss “the bottom line, profitability reports and stuff like that, but you know, that’s about it” with his father. When asked about the regularity with which he does so, Eric said, “depending, yeah, depending,” before clarifying (after being asked whether it might be quarterly), “yeah, probably quarterly.”

Eric capped off the remarkable exchange with a boast that could have come out of Moffatt’s mouth: “My father and I are very close. I talk to him a lot. We’re pretty inseparable.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1905 on: March 25, 2017, 10:07:33 PM »
You just never quite know where the bottom is sometimes.  Some people are so rotten....it just seems like there is NO BOTTOM.....as far as how low they will go.  Donnie.....is one of those people.  Incredible......

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/inspector-general-trump-health_us_58d5fc2de4b03692bea63ff9?

David Gergen is someone in politics I respect.  He has served presidents on BOTH SIDES of the aisle...  He said this is the worst start to the "first 100 days" of ANY PRESIDENT HE HAS EVER SEEN.  And I have no doubt....it will continue to get worse....somehow.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1906 on: March 25, 2017, 11:07:56 PM »
To paraphrase the song:

Where are the sock puppets?
There ought to be sock puppets.
Don't bother,
They're here...




Not sure I understand the sock puppet meme. Hasn't everyone posting on this thread been a forum member for quite a while?




Evil Putin is at it again.


How is the West to respond when Russia ready's herself to attack Europe by cutting her military budget by over 25%?
http://www.janes.com/article/68766/russia-announces-deepest-defence-budget-cuts-since-1990s
 
This is obviously a super secret Soviet jujitsu move wherein the bloated military budgets of Putin's opponents are used to destroy their own defensive capabilities. As more and more of the West's latest hardware is moved ever closer to Russia's borders, the air traffic, ground traffic, and logistics become so entangled that massive traffic jams preclude any movement at all. F-35s fight for landing space with lumbering B-52s, Abrams M1s choke access to military bases, and Aegis equipped battleships are found to be jamming each others systems.


At the opportune moment, a small cadre of polite men in green uniform, acting as traffic cops and/or air traffic controllers, will offer to straighten the whole mess out - if the West bows to all of Putin's demented demands.


The "polite men in green" send the Abrams home, where they are stacked to build the "Southern Wall". The F-35s are presented to universities and museums throughout the world to serve as examples of technology run amok, and while sunken battleships are used as breakwaters, components of their Aegis systems find use with Hard Metal rock bands.


Just as Putin's capacity for evil knows no bounds, so his intellect is unsurpassed. Lesser men, when preparing to attack, would bolster their armament. Only Putin would think to cut his forces just as he prepares to lash out in all directions. This is the caliper of the enemy covetously eyeing the riches of Ukrainian, the bounty of Serbia, and the priceless intellectual heritage of Poland.


Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid!
Terry

wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1907 on: March 26, 2017, 03:25:04 AM »
Buddy, see David Gergen here at about 5:50.



"Many people no longer believe this, but trust remains the coin of the realm in politics.

A president who is trusted--by the people, by the congress, by the press, by foreign countries--is a president who can get a lot of good things done. You break that trust, you violate that trust, everything else tumbles around you."
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1908 on: March 26, 2017, 04:21:26 AM »
Tell us how you really feel. ;-)

Hi Jim,

my main concern is with the permanent war that the US has been waging since 2001 well outside the UN Charter and thus technically illegal. The Charter is defined by the Nuremberg laws proscribing state aggression and upholding state sovereignty as the cornerstone of international law and order, these are the same laws under which we hung what was left of the Nazi hierarchy after WW2. The proscription of Nazism is in this historical sense at the foundations of the UN Charter and international law, the same law the US has been flouting for the last decade and a half with regime change after regime change. Thus in this post WW2 sense, the GWOT is what Nazis do. Quite simple really, a technical point of law and history, and in this sense one might also say that Obama was a mass murdering warmongering Nazi for the entire 8 years of his 2 terms. Much like Bush, Blair and Howard before him in that they executed a Supreme Crime of Aggression against Iraq and destroyed any international consensus on state sovereignty while doing so. Technically they could be hung for the same crime we hung the Nazis.

Obviously this point of view is probably difficult to swallow for people fed the notion that the US is exceptional, free and an 'honest broker', and that, perversely, Putin etal are Hitler, I guess it would seem that history is turned upside down.

I take it nowadays though it's OK to call Trump a fascist, yes? Putin a murderous dictator akin to Hitler? Russia a violent backwards throwback to the Stalinist Soviets and Tsarist empire? My trouble with these memes is that Donald, unlike Hillary, is as yet to prove his fascist credentials re the US permanent war on the world, while Russia is actually arguing for the restoration of state sovereignty and a multipolar balance of power against the unfettered use of US military power across the globe. The pragmatic realists in the US elites are coming around to this against the neconservative hawks, and I see the current Trump imbroglio in that light. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, and I consider the current Russophobia a frighteningly amusing sideshow to this main one.

You are of course free to discount any of my views as "conspiracy theory" and interpret them, rather oddly, as support for Trump. Being an Australian libertarian socialist however I don't really care about your US presidents as I see them mainly as talking heads for whatever powers are aligned behind them. It's an empire thing, you might get it if you were schooled in the history of the British Empire like some of us other colonials.

Ultimately, for me, I am hoping the US super power which is currently devolving back into a multipolar world, can do so more or less without causing too much of a fuss, like say a thermonuclear WW3. Certainly the use of tactical nuclear weapons are on the table, the ABM shield in Eastern Europe is technically part of a first strike weapon system aligned against the Russian Federation, and the US elites are barking mad ala McCain's "it's an act of war!" re the evidence free allegation of Russian election hacking.

Whether you like him or not, your dodgy real estate salesman and reality TV star Commander in Chief is now nominally at the helm of the US military industrial behemoth, it remains to be seen what he will or can do to effect its current course, if anything, for the better or quite possibly the worse.

At the end of this historical process however, global multipolarity is inevitable, Eurasia is rising and they want to do business, and perhaps by around 2030 the world can put global warfare behind it to mitigate the worst of runaway global warming. I certainly wouldn't count on it though, how about you?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 04:31:29 AM by Zeug Gezeugt »

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1909 on: March 26, 2017, 05:25:24 AM »
Tell us how you really feel. ;-)

Hi Jim,

my main concern is with the permanent war that the US has been waging since 2001 well outside the UN Charter and thus technically illegal. The Charter is defined by the Nuremberg laws proscribing state aggression and upholding state sovereignty as the cornerstone of international law and order, these are the same laws under which we hung what was left of the Nazi hierarchy after WW2. The proscription of Nazism is in this historical sense at the foundations of the UN Charter and international law, the same law the US has been flouting for the last decade and a half with regime change after regime change. Thus in this post WW2 sense, the GWOT is what Nazis do. Quite simple really, a technical point of law and history, and in this sense one might also say that Obama was a mass murdering warmongering Nazi for the entire 8 years of his 2 terms. Much like Bush, Blair and Howard before him in that they executed a Supreme Crime of Aggression against Iraq and destroyed any international consensus on state sovereignty while doing so. Technically they could be hung for the same crime we hung the Nazis.

Obviously this point of view is probably difficult to swallow for people fed the notion that the US is exceptional, free and an 'honest broker', and that, perversely, Putin etal are Hitler, I guess it would seem that history is turned upside down.

I take it nowadays though it's OK to call Trump a fascist, yes? Putin a murderous dictator akin to Hitler? Russia a violent backwards throwback to the Stalinist Soviets and Tsarist empire? My trouble with these memes is that Donald, unlike Hillary, is as yet to prove his fascist credentials re the US permanent war on the world, while Russia is actually arguing for the restoration of state sovereignty and a multipolar balance of power against the unfettered use of US military power across the globe. The pragmatic realists in the US elites are coming around to this against the neconservative hawks, and I see the current Trump imbroglio in that light. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, and I consider the current Russophobia a frighteningly amusing sideshow to this main one.

You are of course free to discount any of my views as "conspiracy theory" and interpret them, rather oddly, as support for Trump. Being an Australian libertarian socialist however I don't really care about your US presidents as I see them mainly as talking heads for whatever powers are aligned behind them. It's an empire thing, you might get it if you were schooled in the history of the British Empire like some of us other colonials.

Ultimately, for me, I am hoping the US super power which is currently devolving back into a multipolar world, can do so more or less without causing too much of a fuss, like say a thermonuclear WW3. Certainly the use of tactical nuclear weapons are on the table, the ABM shield in Eastern Europe is technically part of a first strike weapon system aligned against the Russian Federation, and the US elites are barking mad ala McCain's "it's an act of war!" re the evidence free allegation of Russian election hacking.

Whether you like him or not, your dodgy real estate salesman and reality TV star Commander in Chief is now nominally at the helm of the US military industrial behemoth, it remains to be seen what he will or can do to effect its current course, if anything, for the better or quite possibly the worse.

At the end of this historical process however, global multipolarity is inevitable, Eurasia is rising and they want to do business, and perhaps by around 2030 the world can put global warfare behind it to mitigate the worst of runaway global warming. I certainly wouldn't count on it though, how about you?

Bizzaro world. Obama is a Nazi, white supremacist loving Trump not a fascist and Putin is a benevolent state sovereignist ( aka another nationalist like all recent European nationalist movements like Lepen. Btw fascism at its core was nationalist, born from the liberalism capitalism and industrial expansion of the 1800s and early 1900s)

sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1910 on: March 26, 2017, 05:28:24 AM »
" ... the permanent war that the US has been waging since 2001 ... "

As Chomsky has said, every president of the USA since WWII has been a war criminal. This is, of course, a tautology, since every leader of every empire through history was a war criminal.

The difficulty is that the current war criminal is not approved by the powers that be, hence the drumbeat to depose him. We see now the deep state rise against the populist emperor.  Much is revealed in who aligns for and against him. Both factions would continue Imperium. The dispute is merely over control.

A pox on both their houses.

sidd

« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 09:14:14 AM by sidd »

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1911 on: March 26, 2017, 05:55:44 AM »
Ahh the famous deep state.... 

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1912 on: March 26, 2017, 06:41:07 AM »
Bizzaro world. Obama is a Nazi, white supremacist loving Trump not a fascist and Putin is a benevolent state sovereignist ( aka another nationalist like all recent European nationalist movements like Lepen. Btw fascism at its core was nationalist, born from the liberalism capitalism and industrial expansion of the 1800s and early 1900s)

Btw fascism is also of course corporatism merged with state power, at least that's how Mussolini saw it, and a perfect descriptor for the current US lone super power.

And yes mine would be a bizarro world if seen through the inversion of your US corporatist bubble and its delusional topsy turvy domestic politics. There is a world out here, beyond your US domestic propaganda bubble, and it's full of people like me who have their own opinions and points of view. 

Now if you lot could get your military to stop rampaging around the world like a drunken psychopath with a knife killing people, then maybe we could all come together to settle things down a bit and get to work on some real problems, such as climate change yes? Respect state sovereignty rather than enforce pseudo-democratic bloody chaos at the point of a gun ... Is this an outrageously bizarro prospect for you as well? And where has your anti-war coalition gone?

Worst case scenario you morons trigger a global thermonuclear war after unleashing a hydrocarbon free for all to feed an insane global war economy. Next stop the final solution to anthropogenic climate change via our species extinction. Bizarro indeed!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 09:05:56 AM by Zeug Gezeugt »

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1913 on: March 26, 2017, 12:35:06 PM »
Bizzaro world. Obama is a Nazi, white supremacist loving Trump not a fascist and Putin is a benevolent state sovereignist ( aka another nationalist like all recent European nationalist movements like Lepen. Btw fascism at its core was nationalist, born from the liberalism capitalism and industrial expansion of the 1800s and early 1900s)

Btw fascism is also of course corporatism merged with state power, at least that's how Mussolini saw it, and a perfect descriptor for the current US lone super power.

And yes mine would be a bizarro world if seen through the inversion of your US corporatist bubble and its delusional topsy turvy domestic politics. There is a world out here, beyond your US domestic propaganda bubble, and it's full of people like me who have their own opinions and points of view. 

Now if you lot could get your military to stop rampaging around the world like a drunken psychopath with a knife killing people, then maybe we could all come together to settle things down a bit and get to work on some real problems, such as climate change yes? Respect state sovereignty rather than enforce pseudo-democratic bloody chaos at the point of a gun ... Is this an outrageously bizarro prospect for you as well? And where has your anti-war coalition gone?

Worst case scenario you morons trigger a global thermonuclear war after unleashing a hydrocarbon free for all to feed an insane global war economy. Next stop the final solution to anthropogenic climate change via our species extinction. Bizarro indeed!

Btw I am Greek, born and raised there, so I have seen all sort of political movements. Even so, your beef has become rather tiresome.... we have not attacked you, yet your diatrebes have become increasingly insulting.  If you care about ff and cc, why don't tell your government to back off from the 10M/day production. And stop advancing exploration and exploitation of the arctic...

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1914 on: March 26, 2017, 01:29:18 PM »
If you care about ff and cc, why don't tell your government to back off from the 10M/day production. And stop advancing exploration and exploitation of the arctic...

This thread is about the Trump presidency, and presumably its relation to ff and cc.

This US permanent war is a catastrophe on many levels, with the worst long term effect, if we can avoid MAD, probably being the diversion of any global cooperative effort towards a real engagement with cc.

The normalisation of a state of permanent global warfare is strange don't you think? Its insane Russophobia with its demonisation of Putin and the Russian Federation is base war propaganda pushed by US intelligence and political elites and their corporate media, and is being used to undermine their own sitting president and anyone who disagrees with them, which is neo-McCarthyist in the extreme, it's as if regime change has finally arrived in the USA. That it's accepted and repeated by people here who are otherwise level headed proponents of the science concerning cc and aware of the propaganda techniques of cc deniers, I find startling.

It's a pity you're getting tired though, I think these problems are worthy of discussion, even with Greeks!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 02:08:49 PM by Zeug Gezeugt »

Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1915 on: March 26, 2017, 01:36:03 PM »
...[Y]our beef has become rather tiresome.... we have not attacked you, yet your diatrebes have become increasingly insulting...

Indeed. Feel free to argue your baseless assertions if you wish, Zeug--that the Clintons are running everything behind the scenes, that Obama was a warmongering, mass murdering US Nazi, that Trump is just peachy, that Daddy Vlad is a real true genuine statesman--but stop with the insults aimed at other forum members. Saying things such as "you morons" and "you yanks are seriously deluded" and "your naive Russophobia is truly delusional" isn't going to help you win your arguments...and perhaps more importantly, it'll find you unwelcome here. It's clear you've read--or at least memorized the juicier parts of--some beginner-level college textbook; in doing so you must surely have picked up a few hints on how to carry on a polite discussion. Suggest you apply those lessons.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1916 on: March 26, 2017, 04:24:37 PM »
. . .
Just as Putin's capacity for evil knows no bounds, so his intellect is unsurpassed. Lesser men, when preparing to attack, would bolster their armament. Only Putin would think to cut his forces just as he prepares to lash out in all directions. This is the caliper of the enemy covetously eyeing the riches of Ukrainian, the bounty of Serbia, and the priceless intellectual heritage of Poland.


Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid!
Terry

Terry,

I actually agree with you that demonizing Russia is inappropriate.  As far as I'm concerned, the brouhaha shouldn't be so much about Russia in particular as foreign meddling in elections in general.
Russia has a GDP equal to Italy's.  Short of launching nukes, it's not an existential threat to any nation except, perhaps, Ukraine.  It's entirely plausible to me that the Ukrainian people might be better off united under pro-Kremlin government than suffer endless low-level civil war.  Though they should get to decide their fate.

It is plainly obvious that many, many billions of dollars are at stake for Putin to get sanctions lifted.  He has a large security apparatus at his beck and call, and clearly would have no scruples about meddling in an election.  It's quite clear that Trump is a kleptocrat, and would sell his mother for a couple of billion.  I think it would be almost surprising if Putin didn't expend some resources in the US election process to try to get sanctions lifted.  There are enough smoking guns here and enough suggestive facts to conclude that that's probably what happened.

It matters relatively little that such meddling and collusion with a candidate was done by Russia or Italy, or the UK, or China, or Saudi Arabia.

The candidate who won (despite losing the popular vote) is plainly the worst available option whether you care most about war, the global war on terror, the environment, human rights, or the welfare of the American people or across the globe.  If he grabbed the brass ring by playing dirty, then exposing the dirty play is the most effective way to advance any and all of these concerns.

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1917 on: March 26, 2017, 09:39:42 PM »
Steve


I have to ask if you are as incensed about America's meddling in foreign elections as you appear to be when foreign powers are accused of influencing American elections?


Is interfering with a friendly nation's election processes more or less reprehensible than influencing "enemy" leadership, and why?


Is screaming "Assad must go", worse than spending billions overthrowing Ukraine's elected leaders, or worse than supplying one Canadian political party with the software used to influence Americans in your last election?


If influencing foreign elections is criminal behavior, every nation should be equally bound. If Americans are insistent that no one interfere with her elections, Obama should be tried for interfering in the Brexit vote. Putin rather famously refused to answer when asked his feelings about Brexit, saying it was up to the British people, and he didn't want to influence their decision.


If influencing foreign elections is simply business as usual, then stop pillorying Putin and Trump for carrying on just as others have before them.
If influencing foreign elections is equivalent to war, as McCain claims, then Americans must stop meddling in the internal affairs of friendly nations at the very least.


Terry

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1918 on: March 26, 2017, 10:14:11 PM »
Feel free to argue your baseless assertions if you wish, Zeug--that the Clintons are running everything behind the scenes, that Obama was a warmongering, mass murdering US Nazi, that Trump is just peachy, that Daddy Vlad is a real true genuine statesman--but stop with the insults aimed at other forum members. Saying things such as "you morons" and "you yanks are seriously deluded" and "your naive Russophobia is truly delusional" isn't going to help you win your arguments...and perhaps more importantly, it'll find you unwelcome here. It's clear you've read--or at least memorized the juicier parts of--some beginner-level college textbook; in doing so you must surely have picked up a few hints on how to carry on a polite discussion. Suggest you apply those lessons.

You asked me to tell you how I really feel! But this reply is very disappointing, you use straw man arguments then ad hominem to side step the main issues. You suggest I have argued that:

1. "the Clintons are running everything behind the scenes" - simply incorrect.
2. "Obama was a warmongering, mass murdering US Nazi" - in the context of the Nuremberg laws and the proscription of Nazism at the foundation of the UN Charter and post WW2 international law ... correct!
3. "Trump is just peachy" - gods know where you get this from? Your dodgy real estate salesman and reality TV star president is as entertaining as Dubya and Ronnie Raygun before him. Incorrect!
4. "Daddy Vlad is a real true genuine statesman" - Putin has been consistent in his call for a return to the UN Charter and respect for state sovereignty since his Munich 2007 speech and reiterated in his Sep 2015 speech to the UN. You can argue the actual facts of the matter or you can revert to childish Russophobia and suggest I have a fetish for in your own words, "Daddy Vlad". I'm sure you're better than that Jim.

As for being moronic, I think supporting US neoconservative war propaganda whose full spectrum dominance end game is the violent suppression of any and all potential geopolitical competitors, is delusionally moronic. They threaten total war, which threatens nuclear armageddon, in order to secure US dominance over the planet for the 21st C. Their "war that will not end in our lifetimes" is now 15 years old. All the 20 somethings alive today have grown up with the normalisation of US global war!

It's this overriding geopolitical context in which, for me, any discussion of Trump becomes meaningful, most especially in regards to the evolution of a more stable multipolar world order which is the first prerequisite for any global cooperative effort towards actually mitigating runaway global warming. I think he's mostly just a sick symptom of the collapse of US unipolarity myself. How about you?

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1919 on: March 26, 2017, 10:56:11 PM »
ZG


At some, not too distant date, those of us old enough to remember America before Reagan will have died off. Nothing will be left but the propaganda.


Sad
Terry

SteveMDFP

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1920 on: March 26, 2017, 11:32:03 PM »
. . .

If influencing foreign elections is simply business as usual, then stop pillorying Putin and Trump for carrying on just as others have before them.
If influencing foreign elections is equivalent to war, as McCain claims, then Americans must stop meddling in the internal affairs of friendly nations at the very least.


Terry

I agree with you.  I am well aware that the US has done much worse meddling in  the internal affairs of other countries than what Putin is suspected of doing.  It's all wrong, none of it is excusable. 

I'm not demonizing Putin.  If I had responsibility for leading Russia and were faced with the stakes in the US election he was facing, I'd at least be sorely tempted to use what money and resources were available to surreptitiously tip the scales in favor of the pro-Russian candidate.  That's part of why I think it actually happened.

For all I know, back when newcomer Obama was faced off against John McCain, he might have exerted covert influence in that election--he was facing different but equally-compelling interests there.  McCain would have been a warmongering nightmare for Putin.

The problem is that the pro-Russian candidate who won happens to be an absolute nightmare for the environment, justice, peace, democracy, human rights and human welfare around the world.  We're in a very dangerous spot with Der Gropenfuhrer in the White House.  If exposing dirty tricks  can reduce the hazard (regardless of how commonplace such dirty tricks are), then that's what needs to happen.

Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1921 on: March 27, 2017, 12:47:09 AM »
It's one thing to note that America doesn't exactly have a sterling record when it comes to meddling in the affairs of other nations; we have a deeply regrettable past, as any honest person will tell you. But since I firmly believe that two wrongs don't make a right, I'm not willing to forgive Russia's blatant election-meddling simply because we Yanks haven't always been the best world citizens. Putin is by most accounts the world's richest person, and he's become that not as you might guess by shrewdly investing his government salary, but by leveraging his position to funnel tens of billions directly into his pockets and those of his cronies. Of course he's looking out for himself and the rest of the oligarchy, and if he existed in a bubble, I might just sit back and laugh at his antics (well, except for the ones that result in innocent people dying). But knowing that doesn't make me feel one whit better about the ignorant, unlearned, trigger-happy, warmongering narcissist sitting in the US White House. There are a number of reasons Clinton isn't there right now, but were she President today instead of that short-fingered vulgarian, this nation--and the world--wouldn't be facing the daily embarrassments and worries brought on by The Orange One. The view from outside the states might look like business as usual. But I can assure you it is anything but.

The people are absolutely pissed at what happened, and continues to happen. That seldom ends well for the oligarchs...

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1922 on: March 27, 2017, 12:50:21 AM »

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1923 on: March 27, 2017, 03:08:42 AM »
Even Team Trump was taken aback by Russia's arrest of opposition leader Alexei Navalny as discussed in the linked article entitled: "U.S. Condemns Arrest of Russian Opposition Leader Alexei Navalny".  I wonder if Team Trump would be so vocal if a Reuters reporter hadn't been there to document the arrest.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-detained-police-during-moscow-protest-n738631

Extract: "The United States harshly criticized Russia's detention of opposition leader Alexei Navalny and hundreds of other protesters Sunday in central Moscow.
A Reuters reporter saw police detain Navalny, who called the rally to protest corruption, on Moscow's Tverskaya Street and put him in a police truck. Hundreds of opposition protesters crowded around the police van and tried to prevent it from taking him away.
A tweet from Navalny's account after the incident said: "Guys, I'm all right. Don't try to break me out. Go on walking down the Tverskaya. Our topic today is fight against corruption.""
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1924 on: March 27, 2017, 03:26:50 AM »
But since I firmly believe that two wrongs don't make a right, I'm not willing to forgive Russia's blatant election-meddling simply because we Yanks haven't always been the best world citizens.


I wasn't referencing long past incidents, rather the most recent Canadian election and two egregious acts by Obama in the last 6 months of his term.


If you are unwilling to vilify these actions by your government, it seems to me as though you are only interested in persecuting others for the same crime that you are committing. Afraid I can't subscribe to that model of selective prosecution/persecution.


Since you never opined as to whether messing with a friendly nation's elections was a worse infraction than messing with a rival's, I'll give you my opinion.


Influencing the elections of an enemy seems almost on par with a victimless crime. You may get the results you crave & no lives or property needs be destroyed. If unsuccessful your enemy is still your enemy.


Playing internal political games in a friendly nation however is reprehensible. If you are successful you have covertly maneuvered a friend into subjugating his wants and needs for your wants. If unsuccessful you will have alienated an ally, which hurts both entities.


Putin's response to the Brexit referendum was of course above reproach, the response we should expect from the head of a friendly nation. Obama's meddling was not only reprehensible, it was ineffective. Some believe his financial threats actually swung the vote towards exiting. In short it was stupid, reprehensible, and in keeping with contemporaneity American policy.


If you believe that Stephen Harper should have been prosecuted for conspiring with Shrub. or that Justin Trudeau should be charged for accepting, and using software provided by the Democratic Party of the United States, I'll then be willing to follow your arguments re. Trump and Putin.
Until then I'll remember Putin and Brexit.


Terry

sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1925 on: March 27, 2017, 07:36:44 AM »
Re: America before Reagan

Smedley Butler's indictment of the USA was a while before Reagan. That is what Empire is. That is what Empire does. Believing that any nation will resist corruption from unbridled power is naive. The ruling classes of all Empires have always had blood on their hands. Howard Zinn should be required reading in every classroom across the USA. It might not change anything, but perhaps the media might be less hypocritical.

I do not lie to myself that my hands are clean. I am complicit in Empire. I pay taxes to the government of the USA. I live with it, and I do not sleep easy.

But I do object to arguments that the USA is suddenly more evil or more misled because a populist Emperor has seized the throne. A great many of those now vocally outraged at the excesses of the new Emperor acquiesced in silence or cheered on decade after decade of slaughter and pillage abroad. Where was that outrage when the last Emperor rescued the oligarchs, screwed homeowners, expanded the drone war, expanded the Afghan and African wars, dismembered Libya, strengthened mass surveillance ?

O wait, he got the Nobel Peace Prize. As became clear,  that was obscenity worth outrage.

We are in post outrage world now. The USA is no longer credible. The evils it does abroad have returned home. Tools honed on foreigners now cut their own. Fifty years ago Ellul knew the propangandist to be as trapped as the propagandized, and we see exactly what he meant.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1926 on: March 27, 2017, 09:59:01 AM »
sidd


You are right about Reagan of course.


I'd written a long screed, since erased, defending my argument.


You are right,
Terry


Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1927 on: March 27, 2017, 02:32:34 PM »
Terry, I believe you've seriously misread me; where did I ever say I was "unwilling to vilify [any] actions by [my] government"? (Did you somehow miss the part where I said America has had "a deeply regrettable past"? Or where I said "we Yanks haven't always been the best world citizens"? Or where I said "America doesn't exactly have a sterling record"?) I've been a huge proponent of pointing out Lady Liberty's many hideous warts.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Now, people are certainly free to believe that Russia's influencing our elections was "a victimless crime", but the definition of "victim" would have to be extremely narrow for me to agree with you. To put it simply, because of Putin, we have Trump. And because of Trump, we have a corrupt, impetuous, uneducated, undignified, anti-science, warmongering, tax-cheating, Putin-loving serial swindler calling the shots for some 320 million of us. Many of that 320 million stand to lose much under TrumpCo: money, jobs, homes, health. Life. (And if he gets an itchy nuclear trigger finger, that 320 million becomes a hell of a lot more.)

I'd like someone to please explain how that's "victimless".

Look, I get that there's a lot of guffawing at us around the globe, a deep sense of anti-American schadenfreude, a feeling that we "had it coming to us". And much of that is, I suppose, well-earned. But as destructively stupid as the Brexit vote was, the majority of Americans will tell you it pales in significance next to the profound fear and worry we feel having Trump in the Oval Office. We went overnight from the (objectively and subjectively) staid and stable Obama administration to a chaotic regime ruled by an idiot man-child who, it's increasingly clear, is one of Putin's puppets. America may be on the wane, but if our current situation doesn't cause you sleepless nights, it's because they're not paying close enough attention.

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1928 on: March 27, 2017, 03:53:12 PM »
Quote
Look, I get that there's a lot of guffawing at us around the globe, a deep sense of anti-American schadenfreude, a feeling that we "had it coming to us". And much of that is, I suppose, well-earned. But as destructively stupid as the Brexit vote was, the majority of Americans will tell you it pales in significance next to the profound fear and worry we feel having Trump in the Oval Office. We went overnight from the (objectively and subjectively) staid and stable Obama administration to a chaotic regime ruled by an idiot man-child who, it's increasingly clear, is one of Putin's puppets. America may be on the wane, but if our current situation doesn't cause you sleepless nights, it's because they're not paying close enough attention.

DITTO.

Having someone in the oval office who thinks that spending 3 weeks on trying to fix the healthcare system is OBSURD.  It shows a TOTAL LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

Trump has a total disrespect for the amount HE HAS TO LEARN.  He has NO IDEA....WHAT HE DOESN'T KNOW.  THAT....is dangerous on MANY levels.  And it applies not only to healthcare.....but to everything else.  He has shown no ability to inquire...to investigate...to learn....or to question his/his teams stance.   As I said many times during the campaign....he is a "Fire....Ready....Aim"...type of person.  He will find tax policy every bit as unforgiving as healthcare.  Maybe more so.....


FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1929 on: March 27, 2017, 05:21:39 PM »
sidd

You are right about Reagan of course.

I'd written a long screed, since erased, defending my argument.

You are right,
Terry

The linked article is entitled: "NAFTA’s Real Challenge Is Canada"; and it indicates that it is safe for the US to criticize Canada and vis versa, because we are so closely tied together; and with Trump's approval of the Keystone Pipeline, we are about to become even more closely tied together.

http://www.vnews.com/Trump-has-singled-out-Mexico-but-some-say-NAFTA-s-real-challenge-is-to-the-north-8875078

Extract: "Canada is the largest market for the U.S. as a whole, and for most American states. Since the North American Free Trade Agreement went into effect in 1994, the countries have only become more closely tied together, while trade between the U.S. and Canada has doubled.
But at least in the current political climate, many U.S. businesses, politicians and trade analysts seem more willing to complain about irritants in the U.S. trade relationship with Canada than with Mexico.

In Lighthizer’s confirmation hearing, long-running complaints about a lack of openness in Canada’s dairy and poultry markets, the pricing of lumber imports from Canada into the U.S., and a lack of rigor in Canada’s enforcement of U.S. intellectual property were on full display.

Politicians today, especially free traders who previously supported NAFTA, may be hesitant to incite the administration to further action by criticizing Mexico. But with Canada, politicians are confident they can lob a criticism or two without touching off an international incident.

“There is some element of, ‘It’s always safe to complain about Canada,’ ” Roh said."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1930 on: March 27, 2017, 05:37:13 PM »
Wouldn't it be funny if.....

1)  Ryan is pushed out of his house speakership by Bannon and Company in coming weeks
2)  Trump eventually gets pushed out of office/impeached next year...
3)  Pence is also forced out as they prove he was lying as well and knew what was happening
4)  Bannon and others go to jail...
5)  Then Ryan becomes president......he is now third in line to do that....

5)  Actually....he wouldn't be in line....since he got fired/pushed out.  EITHER.....a NEW person would be the "next third in line", and that would be whoever the Republicans voted in as Ryan's replacement....OR....if the Speaker of the House was still vacant (they hadn't yet voted to replace Ryan).....then I guess the next person in line of succession.....#4.....which would be the "Speaker pro tem" who is now Orin Hatch of Utah.

 

In the US we have a saying....."he who laughs LAST, laughs BEST."[/b
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 05:52:32 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1931 on: March 27, 2017, 07:11:33 PM »
New record low for Donnie.  Now at 36% approval.  I would "expect" to see something in the "30ish" range before he gets his next "dead cat bounce".

http://www.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

Down 4% in one day.  Maybe people are actually watching NEWS instead of FOX.

This also ties his "biggest spread" between approval and disapproval:  21%.  I KNOW he can do worse than this.  He expected to figure out US healthcare policy in 3 weeks.  Maybe he'll try to overhaul the US tax code in a weekend. ;)

He's going to have a lot of "dead time" before anything substantive even starts to come out on tax policy though.  So the airwaves are going to be filled with TrumpGate and RussiaGate for the next few months.....  That should play well.

Quote
According to a Gallup poll Trump’s “job approval rating fell to 36% for the three-day period of March 24-26, following Republican House leaders’ failed effort to pass a new healthcare bill that would have replaced the Affordable Care Act.”

Trump hit his prior low of 37% during the time period of March 16-18.

Gallup pointed out, “Trump’s current 36% is two percentage points below Barack Obama’s low point of 38%, recorded in 2011 and 2014.” Both 2011 and 2014 were years after President Obama took office in 2009, rather than the months it took the nation to disapprove of Trump at alarmingly high numbers.

Although Trump’s numbers have been historic lows for a new president, Gallup does point out that the following presidents had approval ratings lower than 36% at some point: “Presidents George W. Bush (lowest approval rating: 25%), George H.W. Bush (29%), Ronald Reagan (35%), Jimmy Carter (28%), Richard Nixon (24%), Lyndon Johnson (35%) and Harry Truman (22%) all had job approval ratings lower than 36% at least once during their administrations.”

So....he CAN and he WILL go lower..

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/03/27/trumps-approval-rating-falls-2-points-obamas-lowest-rating.html
 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 08:19:10 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1932 on: March 27, 2017, 09:13:23 PM »
And....if you want to go lower in the polls....all you need to do is make stupid decisions and make bad execution.

Where can Donnie and Scottie screw up next?

"Donald Trump Is About To Undo Obama’s Legacy On Climate Change"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-executive-order-climate-change_us_58b07ebae4b060480e079dc2?rmmgxlakibef2bj4i&

And....this will be bad timing for him as well.  If you're going to make stupid decisions like Donnie.....you may as well add in a touch of "bad timing."

As he starts to pound out his "trash the environment" program......the march for science is right around the corner on April 22nd.

The one good thing about this....is that Donnie is going to take FOX News down a notch with him, since Donnie, Scottie, AND FOX have all lied about global warming.

One interesting note.....will be to see if FOX gets rid of Sheppard Smith, the lone sole with any sign of ethics at FOX.  Ethics and FOX do NOT MIX WELL.....so it will be interesting to see if they cut the cord with Shep.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1933 on: March 28, 2017, 07:35:40 AM »
Re: "because of Putin, we have Trump"

Keep believing that and you will keep losing elections.

Out of curiosity, how many people on this forum know even a single person that voted for Trump ? How many live in a county that went for Trump ? If so, have you actually asked your neighbors why they voted for him ? I do and I have.

You know, Ohio unions were a solid democratic vote back in the day. Last year, as usual, the union reps were out in force for Hillary. But this time, the rank and file was solidly for Trump. In Marion, OH, one union member told me why in front of his union rep who was named Keith.

"Hey, the Democrats used to have our votes, every election, every time. But too long now, they took us for granted. They figgered, where else are we gonna go ? That's what Keith here is telling us. Again. That Hillary's all we got. We got no place to go. Sorry, Keith, no more. You gonna see where we went. And you won't like it."

He then spat on the ground at Keith's feet and walked out the bar.

These guys aint stupid. They know all about Putin. They know Fox lies. They know all media lies. They know all politicians lie. Most of all, they know when they are getting screwed.

I have been in small towns across from the Mississipi to the Susqehanna over the last year. Every place the song was the same. As I said then on this forum, I knew they were mad, but I didn't know if they would actually go out and vote. I guess enuf of them did.

But no, it musta been the russians.

sidd

Milret2

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1934 on: March 28, 2017, 07:35:52 AM »
Here is  partial transcript from the first Clinton Trump debate back before the election. To bad we did not think about this situation with greater perception before we elected a man who just made his son in law "in charge of every thing" today.
CLINTON: Well, that’s because he’d rather have a puppet as president of the United States.
TRUMP: No puppet. No puppet.
CLINTON: And it’s pretty clear...
TRUMP: You’re the puppet!
CLINTON: It’s pretty clear you won’t admit...
TRUMP: No, you’re the puppet.
CLINTON: ... that the Russians have engaged in cyber attacks against the United States of America, that you encouraged espionage against our people, that you are willing to spout the Putin line, sign up for his wish list, break up NATO, do whatever he wants to do, and that you continue to get help from him, because he has a very clear favorite in this race.
So I think that this is such an unprecedented situation. We’ve never had a foreign government trying to interfere in our election. We have 17 — 17 intelligence agencies, civilian and military, who have all concluded that these espionage attacks, these cyber-attacks, come from the highest levels of the Kremlin and they are designed to influence our election. I find that deeply disturbing.
WALLACE: Secretary Clinton...
CLINTON: And I think it’s time you take a stand...
TRUMP: She has no idea whether it’s Russia, China, or anybody else.
CLINTON: I am not quoting myself.
TRUMP: She has no idea.
CLINTON: I am quoting 17...
TRUMP: Hillary, you have no idea.
CLINTON: ... 17 intelligence — do you doubt 17 military and civilian...
TRUMP: And our country has no idea.
CLINTON: ... agencies.
TRUMP: Yeah, I doubt it. I doubt it.
CLINTON: Well, he’d rather believe Vladimir Putin than the military and civilian intelligence professionals who are sworn to protect us. I find that just absolutely...
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: She doesn’t like Putin because Putin has outsmarted her at every step of the way.

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1935 on: March 28, 2017, 07:54:43 AM »
Jim
Just put in a request for one of your graphs on the "Updating the ASIG" thread.


Back on topic.
I don't get any joy from the predicament that the US is in. There is more truth in "The leader of the free world" meme than most of us like to admit.


Our primary disagreement seems to be about who, or what, brought Trump to power.


From polling numbers I've concluded that the FBI's on, off, on again, very public probe of candidate Hillary was by far the largest factor in her loss. A similar ploy was used in Canada which resulted in Harper being elected.


Assuming that it was the same entity that was responsible, it might be an idea to examine the two beneficiaries.


Harper brought together a conservative coalition consisting of fiscal conservatives, fundamentalist Christians, and remnants of the old Progressive Conservative Party.
Trump brought together Tea Party radicals, fiscal conservatives, Bush conservatives and a large number of those who thought only of throwing a wrench into the system.


Harper removed governmental and environmental barriers to exploiting the Tar Sands.
Trump is removing governmental and environmental barriers to Tar Sand exploitation by opening Keystone.


Harper attempted to silence all scientific discussion of climate change.
Trump seems likely to close down scientific debate re. climate change.


Harper didn't push christian talking points.
Trump hasn't pushed a religious agenda.


Harper was radically anti-Putin, anti-Russian.
Trump seems well disposed towards Putin and Russia.


Harper was strongly favorably inclined towards Israel.
Trump seems opposed to Netanyaho.


I'm sure that many more caparisons can be made
If one entity was responsible for getting both of them elected we should be able to eliminate  Russia & Putin, anyone with environmental concerns, any progressive force. or the Jewish State.


The most obvious common links are the Canadian Tar Sands, oil pipelines, and ff in general. Shell and Exxon Mobil recently sold their Tar Sands holdings, so that may eliminate them as suspects. As it stands I have no idea who did the deed, but I have eliminated a few, at least to my satisfaction.


Terry

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1936 on: March 28, 2017, 01:51:51 PM »
Here's a nice article that shows just what I'm talking about. While you reactionary neo-McCarthyist bots, in the demonstrable absence of any actual evidence, rabbit on about going to war with Russia because evil genius Putin stole the election from Hillary and gave it to his puppet Trump:

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/03/27/us-medias-global-warming-denialism/

Everything done so far over the last quarter century to address the catastrophe unfolding before us as this year's arctic melting season gets underway - a catastrophe that will fall heaviest on the shoulders of the children and grand children of todays children - has been mere window dressing as the Titanic now begins to take water and tilt. The melting iceberg has already slashed the hull open so its not even a question of avoiding it anymore, that was maybe a vague possibility in the early 90's.

But what are you Russophobes doing instead? Running around the deck like headless bloody chickens jibber jabbering about everything you've just read in your national rags and HuffPo?

You yanks surely must know by now your corporate media, your corporations, your politicians of all persuasions, apparently either blue or red team, your wealthy elites, your governmental bureaucracies, your spies and ideologues, they all lie to you, with crude, barefaced, outrageously ludicrous lies, just to goad you into collectively shuffling like a zombie mob in more or less the direction they need.

Take Iraqi WMD for instance, and Saddam's link to Al Qaeda and 9/11, all criminal lies. And at least 2 million Iraqi's died for those lies, 80% of whom would statistically have been women, children and the elderly. And they're still dying.

But no, Daddy Vlad is an evil genius, the richest man in the world along with his oligarch friends who control Mediaeval Russia and its cluelessly backward serfs, they're all just Slavs after all. He murders journalists, invades countries! Kills thousands of innocents at will! And now ... he has personally stolen Hillary's crown from her crooked hands!

I like evidence based reality, which is why I enjoy reading this forum. I also read what you're reading and apparently a good deal more, because this Russophobia is completely evidence free. There is literally nothing but smoke and mirrors, and your own history of McCarthyism that I guess no one learnt anything from!

Should we start a poll perhaps, on whether the Russophobic case for impeaching Trump will undeniably fail or not? I predict 100% total failure due simply to its being based on obvious lies, unless your political and judicial system really is that broken and you can maybe organise a similar neoconservative kangaroo court for the Don to the one that hanged Saddam Hussein. Hopefully it won't be as brutal as the one Qaddafi got with just a good beating and a bayonet up his arse to finish him off... "We came, we saw, he died!"

Meanwhile, the Mad Hatter's Tea Party is busy throwing renewable industries and pollution controls into the harbour while setting course for the fake promise of a hydrocarbon fuelled global economic bonanza! Next stop, as I've already said, Arctic drilling by 2030, now just 3 presidential terms away!

Quote
In the long run, nothing the Trump administration does about health insurance, tax reform, or military spending — short of getting us into nuclear war — will matter nearly as much as its determined efforts to prevent global action on climate disruption.
US Media’s Global Warming Denialism By Jonathan Marshall

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1937 on: March 28, 2017, 02:08:11 PM »
Your dear Vozhd will be the one to start the Arctic drilling, comrade, along with the other oligarchs.

Your childish name calling is funny and predictable. Do you have any other argument in your quiver? Regarding respect for the environment look and criticize inwards too...

gerontocrat

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1938 on: March 28, 2017, 03:03:20 PM »
The Russian Federation has invested heavily to increase its ice-breaker fleet to over 40, including a new nuclear-powered monster. They are also investing heavily in new and improved shore-based infrastructure and facilities. They are not doing this to improve their climate science base. It is all about exploiting and controlling the northern sea route for shipping and to exploit a variety of mineral resources (not just oil and gas).  It is partly driven by the realisation that they have failed to broaden their economy beyond oil and gas.

This is a long-term plan, and has nothing to do with the Trump presidency whatsoever. Successive presidencies have taken their eye off the ball when it comes to the Arctic.

If Russia was able to control the outcome of the Presidential election then this is a sorry judgement on the current state of the Great Experiment started when the 13 sisters told us English to get lost.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1939 on: March 28, 2017, 05:24:50 PM »
Apparently, the White House is trying to block testimony by former acting Attorney General Sally Yates before Congress about the Russian connection.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 12:57:02 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1940 on: March 28, 2017, 06:32:34 PM »
Apparently, the White House is trying to block testimony by former action Attorney General Sally Yates before Congress about the Russian connection.

Yeah, saw that. Well, cockroaches prosper best in the dark, amiright?

A bigger bunch of lying, cheating scumbags I've seldom seen.The White House has become nothing more that one big taxpayer-funded criminal enterprise. Meanwhile, Vladimir stands just offstage and behind the curtains, beaming with the pride of success while slowly rubbing his hands together in anticipatory glee for the billions soon to be piled thereon...

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1941 on: March 28, 2017, 08:16:25 PM »
Quote
Apparently, the White House is trying to block testimony by former action Attorney General Sally Yates before Congress about the Russian connection.

Trump's administration is likely to allow Yates to testify right after Trump releases his tax returns.... ;)

https://www.truthexaminer.com/2017/03/donald-trump-wont-let-former-acting-attorney-general-sally-yates-testify-for-intel-committee-and-this-is-why/
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Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1942 on: March 28, 2017, 09:53:02 PM »
This is a long-term plan, and has nothing to do with the Trump presidency whatsoever. Successive presidencies have taken their eye off the ball when it comes to the Arctic.

If Russia was able to control the outcome of the Presidential election then this is a sorry judgement on the current state of the Great Experiment started when the 13 sisters told us English to get lost.

Hi G,

And yes all the drillers have been circling the arctic oceans for some years now, and the Russians have been preparing for the eventual ice free summers with US oil major investments such as from Tillerson's ExxonMobil until the war party sanctions curtailed them. But this openness to international investment in the Russian's state run hydrocarbon businesses has nothing to do with the Trump presidency?

Oh dammit! I shouldn't have mentioned international investment in RF arctic drilling as that will fuel the conspiracy theories of the neo-McCarthyists ay!

If the Clinton campaign was able to control the outcome of the Presidential election then ... oh wait they did, with the primaries, colluding with the corporate media to push Trump to successfully derail Jeb's campaign and the DNC to castrate Sander's. And it's all non-conspiracy theory, it's there for everyone to see in their very own emails. Hillary gave them Trump on a plate and the deplorables ate him up! I'm afraid the current state of the Great Experiment is already rotten to the core.

And here we are, instead of discussing Trump's looming federal directive to castrate the EPA and kill off the Clean Power Plan ... no wait, THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING!

Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1943 on: March 28, 2017, 10:36:16 PM »
And yes all the drillers have been circling the arctic oceans for some years now, and the Russians have been preparing for the eventual ice free summers with US oil major investments such as from Tillerson's ExxonMobil until the war party sanctions curtailed them. But this openness to international investment in the Russian's state run hydrocarbon businesses has nothing to do with the Trump presidency?

It has everything to do with it. After all, Tillerson wasn't selected as SoS because of his decades-long track record of statesmanship; he was selected because Putin needed a Fossil Fuel Fellow Traveler to lift those sanctions. Those sanctions disappear, and tens of billions more flow into the overstuffed pockets of Putin's Spetsnaz pants--as well as a hefty sum to Tillerson, Trump, and the rest of the Corrupt Cartel.

If the Clinton campaign was able to control the outcome of the Presidential election then ... oh wait they did, with the primaries, colluding with the corporate media to push Trump to successfully derail Jeb's campaign and the DNC to castrate Sander's. And it's all non-conspiracy theory, it's there for everyone to see in their very own emails. Hillary gave them Trump on a plate and the deplorables ate him up! I'm afraid the current state of the Great Experiment is already rotten to the core.

It takes a truly Trump-ian mindset to declare that Clinton colluded "...with the corporate media to push Trump to successfully derail Jeb's campaign and the DNC to castrate Sander's". Seriously, you have to get your facts straight. But even if there were one shred of evidence to support that accusation (which--hint--there's not), that's a far, far, far cry from the Trump campaign working behind the scenes with a hostile foreign power to subvert the democratic process and the will of the American voter. The former would be political meddling; the latter would be treason.

Most people can see the difference.

And here we are, instead of discussing Trump's looming federal directive to castrate the EPA and kill off the Clean Power Plan ... no wait, THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING!

Wait--are you under the impression that people can't walk and chew gum at the same time? Do you think discussing the Trump campaign's stealthy collusion with Russia to get him elected--as seems increasingly likely to have happened--is mutually exclusive from talk of, and action against, all else?

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1944 on: March 29, 2017, 01:43:38 PM »
It takes a truly Trump-ian mindset to declare that Clinton colluded "...with the corporate media to push Trump to successfully derail Jeb's campaign and the DNC to castrate Sander's".

Hi Jim,

Glad you asked! The main difference between the accounts of Clinton's "meddling" and Trump's "treason" is indeed the evidence, and there is no evidence of "treason" as far as I can see whereas Wikileaks is a veritable mine of "meddlesome" information from the horses mouths themselves. I give you the Podesta leaks: https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/

This from the Clinton Campaign to the DNC April 7, 2015:
 
Quote
Pied Piper Candidates
There are two ways to approach the strategies mentioned above. The first is to use the field as a whole to inflict damage on itself similar to what happened to Mitt Romney in 2012. The variety of candidates is a positive here, and many of the lesser known can serve as a cudgel to move the more established candidates further to the right. In this scenario, we don’t want to marginalize the more extreme candidates, but make them more “Pied Piper” candidates who actually represent the mainstream of the Republican Party. Pied Piper candidates include, but aren’t limited to:
• Ted Cruz
• Donald Trump
• Ben Carson
We need to be elevating the Pied Piper candidates so that they are leaders of the pack and tell the press to them [sic] seriously.
Source: https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/fileid/1120/251

The Clinton Campaign set out a Pied Piper strategy to push Trump and 2 other 'extreme' candidates via their corporate media contacts so as to undermine the more reputable Republican candidates first of whom was of course Jeb Bush who started with a massive $118.6 million Super PAC campaign fund (source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/02/20/nearly-100-million-in-super-pac-money-couldnt-save-jeb-bush/ )

As CNN boss Jeff Zucker admitted October 15, 2016:

Quote
If we made any mistake last year, it’s that we probably did put on too many of his campaign rallies in those early months and let them run
Buzzfeed: https://www.buzzfeed.com/maryanngeorgantopoulos/cnn-president-mistake-to-air-so-many-trump-rallies

Apparently CNN ran full length Trump primary rallies? Uncut? Why? Would it be a conspiracy theory to suggest that they were trying to help the Clinton campaign's Pied Piper strategy? There are apparently 65 or so individual journalists named in the emails discussing how to run stories, what content, and professing support for the Clinton campaign. Is this what the US fourth estate is supposed to do? The first is beautiful, Glenn Thrush of Politico excusing himself for being a hack by basically taking dictation from JP:

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/12681 - Politico
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5988 - HuffPo
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/12063 - Press Dinners
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/10353 - Press Dinners
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/23958 - Press Dinners
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/26404 - WSJ
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/10545 - Disney
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/4213 - NYTimes
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/1181 - NYTimes
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/15092 - Facebook

Quote
From:john.podesta@gmail.com
To: gthrush@politico.com 
Date: 2015-04-30 21:50
Subject: Re: sorry to bother... 
   
OTR: No problems here
On Apr 30, 2015 3:00 PM, "Glenn Thrush" <gthrush@politico.com> wrote: 
> No worries
> Because I have become a hack I will send u the whole section that pertains
> to u
> Please don't share or tell anyone I did this
> Tell me if I fucked up anything

The same evidence trail goes for the Sanders scandal, I leave it to you to search it out, and why do you think Debbie was sacked and then went straight into Clinton's campaign team?

You people do good lay scientific research on climate change, are resistant to the idiocies of climate change denial, why is this political stuff so difficult?

The Clinton campaign gave them the Pied Piper candidate and they followed him all the way to election night! Trump didn't need the Russians, he had Hillary!


Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1945 on: March 29, 2017, 04:03:53 PM »
Quote
Trump didn't need the Russians, he had Hillary

"We've got a couple things up our sleeves"......



Yup....Rudy looked really confident there..... ;)  Looks like his folks were just busy campaigning.

Trump's campaign was in bed with both the Russians....AND...the FBI (TWO separate issues).  And both will continue to come out in the coming 18 months or so.  The continued drip....drip....drip won't go away.

I'm not sure why some people are trying to re-litigate the election of Trump/Hillary/Bernie.......

Hillary lost to Trump....which even surprised the Trump folks.  That doesn't mean that Donnie wasn't doing EVERYTHING he could to win (legal AND illegal).  He did....and that included working WITH the Russians....and Rudy/Chaffetz working WITH some in the FBI to promote THAT OTHER ANGLE OF KEEPING HILLARY's FBI STORY ALIVE.

If some people want to IGNORE the Russian interference into the US election...that is their prerogative.  Some people don't want to SEE THE TRUTH.....so they certainly won't want to LOOK FOR IT.  The Nixon administration in 1973/1974 was reacting the very same way that Trump is acting now.  Human reactions don't change.

We now have the most dishonest president in US history.  He has lied from day one...and he won't change.  And those he hired around him.....like Sessions, Guiliani, Spicer, Kellyanne, etc....are much the same.  The only truly honest hire he has is the Sec of Defense.....and I don't he'll take this shit forever.

And now.....we wait for Donnie to continue with his reckless policies.....and for public discontent to continue to rise in coming months.  Donnie is going to have a rough year I'm afraid......

The next step is for public discontent to continue to rise.....and Paul Ryan will be in the middle of much of it.

Tick.....tick....tick....tick.......    

 

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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1946 on: March 29, 2017, 04:39:22 PM »
Needless to say, I'm with Zeug Gezeugt on this one. The Russia stuff is smoke and mirrors to push weapon sales, to keep the Corporate Democrats in the saddle, and possibly to guarantee Republican domination for X years to come. Because this could very easily blow up in everyone's face and then Donnie Tiny Hand's chances of occupying the White House for four more years have become a lot larger.

There are two options: A third party or cleaning up the Democratic Party. The Podesta mails have amply shown what is wrong with the latter. The election of Tom Perez as head of the DNC further reinforces it.

And everyone needs to stop trusting mainstream media, whether it's FOX or CNN or MSNBC or whatever it is that is owned by mega-corporations such as Comcast.

It's all a game and we're the pawns. Who knows, maybe a Trump Presidency was the idea all along. Because how Clinton and the Corporate Dems have screwed up everything there is to screw up, beggars belief. But they're all still there. Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Cory Booker, etc...
The enemy is within
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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1947 on: March 29, 2017, 05:04:54 PM »
Quote
The Russia stuff is smoke and mirrors to push weapon sales, to keep the Corporate Democrats in the saddle, and possibly to guarantee Republican domination for X years to come.

Then why have the folks in the Trump camp LIED FROM DAY ONE about their contacts with the Russians?

1)  Manafort (out now....lied about his contacts)
2)  Flynn......(out now.....lied about his contacts)
3)  Sessions....(not out yet....but he will be....and lied about his contacts)
4)  Kushner....(not out yet....lied about his contacts with Russian banker who is also ex KGB)
etc...etc...etc...

Nobody has THAT much smoke.....and that many mirrors.

Amazing.......



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Archimid

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1948 on: March 29, 2017, 05:09:18 PM »
Trump is not aware he is Putin's pawn, although the same can not be said about his associates. His ego will not allow him to ever admit that. A mediocre coward like him will much rather make himself believe that he has Putin under control. He is sure that this treasonous alliance will make him richer and more powerful . If Putin ever steps out of line, he has convinced himself that through the powers of the Presidency he can control him.

Putin on the other hand knows very well that Trump is a mediocre, ignorant, racist, immoral millionaire  that can be easily blinded by the prospect of profit. So he shows Trump a path to enrichment trough fossil fuel deals in exchange for eliminating climate change research, eliminating mitigation efforts, the removal of sanctions, the destruction of NATO and the break with our allies for 60 years, the Europeans.

Trump, as the ignorant greedy coward he is, could not give a fuck about the consequences that these policies will have on the people of the US, or the world. So he implements Putin plan except that he doesn't know it is Putin plans. Putin planted the plans on Trumps associates, who then make recommendations to stupid Trump, who then goes on to implement policies based on the desires of the oldest enemy of the US.

During this whole process dumb Trump still fully thinks that this is his brilliant plan, as expected from such a despicable human.



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Bruce Steele

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1949 on: March 29, 2017, 05:43:38 PM »
So whether you are from Austria or Australia you only have a few options if you are convinced both the Dems and the Republicans are equally evil.
Danger close
Boycott us, sanction us, or bomb us
Travel bans, revoke our visas, and figure out how to pay for the U.N. And NATO without us. It is of course either a Dem or a Republican , actually both, that help fund those programs. Maybe money does buy loyalty but if both branches of our government are hopelessly corrupt the entire world citizenry needs to unify against us.
 I am a Dem by the way and I don't believe the Republicans and the Dems are the same but if that is how it looks to the rest of the world I would suggest you respond in some meaningful way. I also think bombing us would be very counterproductive so you really have only monetary options.