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werther

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Re: Coal
« Reply #200 on: May 19, 2014, 04:06:22 PM »
OK further on track for big scars… the people of Serbia may not think coal  exit to be realistic too.

This is GE overview of Kolubara mine, a set stretching 21 x 5 km2, feeding the Nikola Tesla power plant:



Mother Nature itself may think otherwise; the AGW loaded cut-off low rainflood in the region has effectively halted production at the plant:



Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #201 on: May 20, 2014, 01:15:12 PM »
The recent deaths of over 300 coal miners in Turkey inspires a look at the cost of coal in human lives.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/coal/10836848/Killer-coal-finally-falls-out-of-fashion.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #202 on: May 24, 2014, 12:34:49 AM »
Global investment bank Citigroup says coal is in structural decline because of regulation and rival technologies.
Quote
A new series of reports from global investment bank Citigroup has highlighted the dramatic changes that are sweeping the world’s largest energy markets -- events which will have a significant impact on the future of the coal industry.

The trio of reports -- A New Balance of Power, A Short Gas Bridge to Renewables, and Global Thermal Coal: When Cyclical Supply Met Structural Demand -- come to several key conclusions.

The first is that emission standards and rising costs will force a mass closure of coal-fired generation (more than 60 gigawatts) in the next few years in the world’s biggest market, the United States. And contrary to most expectations, the reports say gas will play only a minor role in this “energy transformation,” because it will be overtaken due to the falling costs of renewables.

The second conclusion is that increasingly strict environmental measures are severely limiting the feasibility of opening new coal plants, not just in the U.S. and Europe, but also in China – which for the past few years has dominated the global coal market and has been the world’s biggest consumer and importer.

In short, Citigroup says, the evolution in electricity markets is being driven by a combination of regulatory and technology changes.
Regarding India, Citi says coal imports are likely to be capped at lower-than-expected levels because consumption will be lower than forecast.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/beginning-of-the-end-for-coal-citi-sees-structural-decline
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #203 on: May 28, 2014, 09:30:19 PM »
From March:  A "25-year, $7 billion contract" signed in 2012 for two Kentucky coal companies to ship coal to India has yet to see its first shipment sent -- because the Indian company is getting cheaper coal from Indonesia and South Africa.  $130/ton versus $72/ton.  And the coal jobs in Appalachia continue to decline.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/ky-legislature/2014/03/01/eastern-kentucky-coal-deal-with-india-stalls/5940489/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #204 on: June 05, 2014, 02:11:14 PM »
It's all in the money: China's potentially stranded coal assets put investors and coal exporters at risk.
Quote
China's increasing efforts to shift away from coal to cleaner fuels could put annual investments of around $21 billion at risk of being stranded, a research report estimated on Thursday.
...
Chinese coal companies spent around $21 billion in 2013 on exploring and developing coal resources, despite a government push to use more natural gas, nuclear power and renewables to generate power.

Based on estimates from the International Energy Agency for coal demand in 2020 under "business as usual" and "new policies" scenarios, the report said that up to 437 gigawatts of installed coal capacity could be at risk in 2020.

That would equal 40 percent of expected installed capacity by that year.

The report said companies such as Shanxi Coal International Energy Group (600546.SS) and Datang International Power Generation Co (601991.SS) were at risk from high debt levels amid falling coal prices, while poor quality of coal produced by China Coal Energy Co (601898.SS) could put that company at risk if there were strategic shutdowns.

Falling consumption would also have an impact on coal producers worldwide, because China is the world's biggest coal importer, the report said.

"This risk is of notable interest to Australian and Indonesia exporters," it said.

China plans to cap its coal consumption from 2015 at 3.9 billion tonnes and has banned the construction of new coal-fired power plants in the region surrounding Beijing as well as in the Yangtze and Pearl river deltas. Those regions have been told to make absolute cuts in consumption.

He Jiankun, a top climate adviser to the government, said at a conference earlier this week he expected consumption to peak at around 4-4.5 billion tonnes between 2020 and 2025.
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKKBN0EG01320140605?i=2
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #205 on: June 07, 2014, 12:39:43 AM »
OK, they are all Democrats.  But the fact that six legislators from coal states can speak out positively on the (US) EPA's proposal limiting carbon emissions from existing coal power plants -- that's encouraging.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/06/03/3444489/6-coal-state-lawmakers-epa-carbon-rule/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #206 on: June 07, 2014, 04:13:44 PM »
Wow!  The CEO of the (historically heavily coal-dependent, Appalachian-based) Tennessee Valley Authority power company, on a Financial TV channel, speaking about the proposed EPA emissions rule -- and no trash talk!  I am stunned.

http://www.businessweek.com/videos/2014-06-06/tva-ceo-carbon-rules-to-boost-nuclear-renewables


But maybe I shouldn't have been surprised.  The response to energy changes has been considerably more muted lately,  even among  financial folks:
Quote
What’s Wall Street’s reaction to Obama’s new proposal to attack climate change? A big fat “Meh.”

As of Friday afternoon, the stock market had reached record highs. It’s clear that, at least from the perspective of industry and business leaders, the much-feared “war on coal” isn’t going to wreck the economy. In fact, the new rules probably won’t change things much at all.
www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/06/06/obama_s_carbon_emissions_proposal_hasn_t_destroyed_the_economy.html
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Laurent

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Re: Coal
« Reply #207 on: June 15, 2014, 09:36:20 AM »
Australian prime minister has understood everything, coal is cheap, brings lot of energy...and money...what else do you need ?
Plans for five 'megaports' along Queensland coast threatens Great Barrier Reef
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/plans-for-five-megaports-along-queensland-coast-threatens-great-barrier-reef-9537733.html

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #208 on: June 17, 2014, 02:39:22 AM »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #209 on: June 21, 2014, 08:43:21 PM »
One down!
Quote
A proposed $10 billion Australian coal port expansion, one of two port expansions planned near the Great Barrier Reef, was shelved by its sponsors on Friday who pointed to a lack of demand for the extra capacity.
http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKBN0EV0L020140620
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TerryM

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Re: Coal
« Reply #210 on: June 22, 2014, 07:12:50 AM »
The Chinese/Russian NG deal is hurting lots of coal, LNG, & Tar Sands exporters


Terry

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Re: Coal
« Reply #211 on: June 24, 2014, 02:40:05 PM »
To proceed our gallery of dirty spots in the world I want to link to the new multi-media article about the second brown coal spot in Germany, the "Lausitz": http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/natur/braunkohle-boom-in-der-lausitz-warum-die-billig-energie-riskant-ist-a-970690.html
(It is German, but the pictures are probably worth a few clicks)

The biggest moving machine - a 500 m long moving bridge - is used to bring the soil from one side of the pitch to the other. This way the pitch "eats" itself through the landscape, wich is "recultivated" with some major problems and of course >20 m lower and equivalent more CO2 in the air...



The problem in the Lausitz is the same as allways: Cheap energy is available for multiple decades or even centuries and ~25,000 poeple work and life by eating that heritage - those (and the Swedish big utility company Vattenfall) must now be convinced to stopp doing so.

This spot "Lausitz" is the second largest CO2-source in Germany after "Rheinisches Braunkohlenrevier" mentioned earlier in our series (where German big utility company RWE is doing even worse than Vattenfall): http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,347.msg23233.html#msg23233



Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #212 on: July 11, 2014, 08:12:59 PM »
Two large Texas cities plan to completely remove coal from their energy mix.  El Paso may do so in two years, because of a recent huge solar contract.  Austin is looking for ways to eliminate coal plants on which it still owes debt.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2014/07/09/el-paso-may-become-the-first-texas-city-to-go-coal-free/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #213 on: July 25, 2014, 09:28:30 PM »
BEIJING (Reuters) - More than 70 percent of China's coal firms are making losses, the head of the coal industry association said on Thursday, with prices eroded by falling demand growth, a worsening supply glut and a war on smog.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0FT1GG20140724
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #214 on: August 06, 2014, 07:32:22 AM »
Quote
China, meanwhile, is moving ahead on plans to address its pollution problem by phasing out coal, with the Beijing Municipal Environmental Protection Bureau announcing on Monday that the districts of Dongcheng, Xicheng, Chaoyang, Haidian, Fengtai and Shijingshan would stop using coal and its related products, and close coal-fired power plants and other coal facilities, by 2020.

According to official Chinese government statistics, coal use accounted for 25.4 per cent of the capital’s energy consumption in 2012 – a figure that is expected to shrink to less than 10 per cent by 2017.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/worse-news-for-australia-as-india-taps-solar-beijing-bans-coal-66423

Laurent

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Re: Coal
« Reply #215 on: August 19, 2014, 01:49:26 PM »

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #216 on: August 20, 2014, 08:06:20 AM »
China appears to have hit peak coal...




Coal and GDP growth have decoupled in China.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/chinese-coal-consumption-just-fell-first-time-century-49062

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #217 on: August 23, 2014, 05:15:26 PM »
@GreenpeaceUK: Over the border, through the river: 7500 people joined the #humanchain today against coal mines in Germany & Poland! http://t.co/gKl3n3mWYD

http://www.rtcc.org/2014/08/22/human-chain-to-protest-coal-mining-in-germany-and-poland/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #218 on: August 27, 2014, 07:40:56 PM »
Here's an interesting graph produced by Bloomberg New Energy Finance.





Starting over a year ago investors started devaluing coal industry stock.  It's not just rats, everyone gets off a sinking ship if they can.  Some just realize the ship is sinking before others do.

I'll bet with recent news of China's coal consumption starting to level out, perhaps drop, and India setting very aggressive goals for renewable generation installation that curve will continue toward "worthless".

deep octopus

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Re: Coal
« Reply #219 on: August 28, 2014, 03:31:25 PM »
I haven't been able to pin down any energy numbers from China's usage this year, but I have suspicions that a current leveling of China's coal use is in part from coal-to-gas use being counted as natural gas consumption, and not coal. This conversion process to synthetic natural gas is similarly as carbon intensive as straight-forward coal use. Such a trend would make the news more than meets the eye. Just my two cents.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/17/opinion/sunday/china-confronts-its-coal-problem.html?_r=0

http://www.rfa.org/english/commentaries/energy_watch/coal-08252014114944.html

That said, there seems to be a global oversupply of coal that is sending prices lower and causing mines to operate at a loss for now, though other markets are expected to pick up the tab as China moves from heavy industry to... heavy consumerism:

http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2014/06/is-cheap-coal-bad-news-for-the-climate/

Quote
But while low prices might be causing pain for coal mining firms they can provide relief for coal-fired electric utilities in tightly regulated markets like China, Baruya says. These firms are prevented from passing on cost increases to consumers but will have become more profitable as a result of low coal costs.

Even if the cost of coal were to rise substantially, coal-fired power is likely to remain much cheaper in Asia than power from gas. Exports of shale gas from the US won't change that. Even though the gas is cheap, transport costs are not.

Will low coal prices lead to a surge in coal-fired power output and emissions? That depends, says Baruya. Power output cannot grow in a vacuum: there needs to be a corresponding rise in demand as a result of GDP growth.

Quote
The indications are that structural changes are at work, Sussams continues.

For example US coal consumption grew last year but that is unlikely to last as its overall electricity needs have fallen.

Quote
Sussams expects to see a structural shift to lower economic growth and coal demand in China, as it moves from a workshop-based to a consumer-based economy. The country's troubles with smog are another reason to expect structural change in the demand for coal.

There is a wide range of predictions for peak coal in China. Sussams says he's seen dates ranging from 2015 to 2030. Recent discussions of a possible carbon emissions cap make an earlier coal peak for China more plausible, he says.

Quote
Expected US and EU coal-plant closures probably won't counterbalance new Asian additions, Baruya thinks, so that line [global coal consumption] won't be turning south just yet.

That means despite the woes of some in the coal industry analysts are arguing that rumours of the death of coal have been greatly exaggerated. Predictions from the IEA, BP and others are for coal demand to keep on rising for years to come.

Very little will dent the developing world's "prodigious" appetite for coal-fired power according to Reuters market analyst John Kemp.

He writes:

"There is no conceivable energy future over the next 30 to 40 years in which coal does not play an enormous role."

...

All this means that without new efforts to curb coal use or install carbon capture facilities, coal remains likely to steer the world towards dangerous climate change - whether coal prices stay low or not.

Whereas it will be excellent when China's energy usage from coal will begin to fall back (how substantially remains to be seen), we (globally) have to keep a watchful eye, and we have a ways to go in this fight. When will global greenhouse gas emissions peak? From all sources: energy, transportation, forestry, agriculture, industry, etc.? Emissions need to start falling, globally, about 3 or 4 percent a year, roughly, to keep the trajectory below 2 C. As time goes by and with the delayed start of substantial reductions, the annual rate of decrease will have to increase.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:21:31 PM by deep octopus »

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #220 on: August 28, 2014, 08:24:24 PM »
We've got "experts" claiming that coal use will increase.

We've got facts that say coal use is dropping in the countries that use the most coal

#1 China - 3,976,116.8845 short tons.   49.5% of world consumption in 2012.   
#2 United States - 890,483.0000 tons.   11.1%   
#3 India - 801,030.4473 tons.   10.0%   
#4 Russia - 275,685.9590 tons 3.4%      
#5 Germany - 262,564.2794 tons.    3.3%   
#6 Japan - 203,846.4471 tons 2.5%.

China may have plateaued.  The Chinese government is working on lowering coal consumption and has greatly ramped up renewable installations while making plans to move coal use out of heavily populated areas in the near year.

The US is closing about 25% of existing coal plants in the next couple of years while building no new plants.

India is working hard to cut coal use and has just announced very impressive renewable goal.

Russia - who knows?

Germany has been cutting coal use.  Their progress was temporarily interrupted by the decision to close nuclear plants early, but they seem to be past that adjustment and have recently applied to close 7.9 GW of coal capacity.

Japan has seen a rise in coal use following turning off all their nuclear plants.  That seems to be a short term change, similar to what has happened in Germany.  But it will take Japan a while longer while they bring more solar and wind on line.

Now, excluding Russia, that's where 76% of the world's coal is burned.  If the countries who burn over three quarters of all coal consumed in the world are cutting significant amounts, what countries are likely to pick up the slack?  And drop in consumption has to be covered before we can talk about increasing global consumption.

Will underdeveloped countries start building massive numbers of coal plants?  First they'll have to find financing.  The World Bank and several international banks will no longer finance new coal plants.

And why would developing countries put themselves in the position of having to import fuel for the next several decades when they can install renewables and pay nothing for fuel?

Here's an excellent article about renewables and developing countries which was just written by Carl Pope, former executive director of the Sierra Club.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Powering-the-Worlds-Poorer-Economies-A-Response-to-Bill-Gates-and-Jigar-S   

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #221 on: August 29, 2014, 03:09:54 AM »
Looks like the US might have hit peak coal about the same time as hitting peak CO2.




JimD

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Re: Coal
« Reply #222 on: August 29, 2014, 05:04:35 PM »
We have nice dreams, but reality is an ugly business.

Quote
Their report, published in the journal Environmental Research Letters, says existing power plants fired by coal and gas will generate more than 300 billion tons of atmosphere-clogging carbon dioxide over the next 40 years.

They calculate that “committed” emissions – those coming from plants already in operation – will rise by about 4 percent each year as industry builds even more coal and gas fired plants. Their study is the first to quantify the rate at which such emissions grow.

The report estimates that just the new plants built around the world in 2012 will emit 19 billion tons of carbon dioxide during their expected four decades of operation. That’s significantly more than the 14 billion tons of CO2 emissions produced by all the plants operating worldwide built before 2012.

Coal is not dead and it is not dying.  It barely has a cold.  Incremental improvements in localized areas spread over time just will not do.  The situation is beyond serious and requires serious efforts.  Not pussy footing around.

http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Newly-Built-CO2-Emitting-Plants-Outpace-Closings.html
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How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #223 on: August 29, 2014, 07:11:58 PM »
Jim, please go back and read your linked article with a critical eye.

The authors put a ruler on the growth of coal up to 2012 and projected growth going forward. 

We've seen that the future is not a continuation of the past.  China is apparently plateauing with the intent of dropping use.  Germany intends to take all of its coal plants offline in less than 40 years.  It's unlikely the US will be burning much coal 30 years from now, we should be burning far less 20 years from now.  India is working to reduce coal use.  Coal use is dropping in Australia because consumers are being more efficient and installing rooftop solar. 

The authors of that article show no indication of what is currently happening in the world.

Serious moves are afoot.

S.Pansa

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Re: Coal
« Reply #224 on: August 30, 2014, 12:27:54 PM »
@ Bob Wallace

Well after I had a look at the paper, I think this is not what they are showing and they do not miss "what is currently happening in the world" & "The authors put a ruler on the growth of coal up to 2012 and projected growth going forward" is not what they actually have done. They put it into a well needed perspective (which is not yet possible with the post 2012 years, as the data is not complete).

Fortunately the paper in question is not pay walled and accessible here (http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/9/8/084018/)

I'll try to give a "short" ;) summary, but as I usually do miss or misunderstand some things (what happens when laymen like me read scientific papers), please feel free to correct me if I have made some mistakes, because I do want to understand things better & I don't want to misrepresent anything. 

In short: I think they provide a valuable insight into how big the task of emission reduction really is. They show that the future emissions of the already existing ff-power-plants are huge, even if we would shot them down quite quickly and would not built new ones. But for a matter of fact we do built news ones - and we still do it with a growing pace, even if the growing is slowing a little bit (as they demonstrate).

Summary: The main target of the paper is the inertia of our socio-economic system (especially our energy system). The authors think that this inertia is not well represented in the RCPs and other emission pathways which leads to an underestimation of the task at hand.
In 2010 (Davis, Future Co2 emissions and climate change from existing energy infrastructure, Science 329 2010) they tried to quantify the inertia with the concept of "committed" emissions for the first time. The paper provided data for the year 2009, but no historical trends for a broader perspective.

The concept of "committed emissions" of the new paper is described as follows (emphasis mine, see also fig 1 bellow):
Note: they only look at the power generation sector, wich did account for ~40% of the total emissions in 2011.

Quote
"The general principle of commitment accounting is shown schematically in figure 1. Two views are contrasted for the case where a new device, when built, is expected to run for five years and to emit one unit of CO2 each year. Today’s carbon accounting would report annual emissions of one unit of CO 2 in each of the five years of operation. Commitment accounting instead assigns all five units to the year when the device begins to operate (figure 1(a)). We call these anticipated emissions‘ committed emissions ’ or simply ‘ commitments. ’ Figure 1(b) presents the same device three years after it begins to operate and shows (below the line) the initial commitments that have been realized as emissions and those that remain commitments. We depict realized and remaining commitments as negative numbers to re fl ect the fact that net commitments will be zero when fully realized.
‘Committed’ does not mean inevitable. If the device in figure 1 was shut down after operating only four years, its remaining commitment would go to zero, and both committed and realized emissions would be shortened to four units in all subsequent representations. Conversely, if the device continued to operate after fi ve years, both committed emissions and realized emissions would be increased by one unit each year until the device was retired." (p. 2)

For the "commitment accounting" you need at least 4 pieces of information about the ff-burning power plants:

(1) the year the device began operating,
(2) the expected operating lifetime of the device,
(3) the annual emissions from the device, and,
(4) if the device is no longer operating, the year the device ceased operating.

To get this infos, they used two sources:
The Platts World Electric Power Plant database  (http://www.platts.com/products/world-electric-power-plants-database)
Carbon Monitoring for Action (CARMA) database (http://carma.org/)

(Interesting detail: from the 95.529 fossil-fuel generators included in the Platts list, only 13.000 are retired.)

A lot of data correction is needed for the available date, but in the end they get a estimate of mean lifetime for ff-power-plants:
37 (natural gas),
35 (oil),
and 32 years (coal)

They did a deeper analysis of the lifetimes, but in the end they found no specific regional trends. To make things simple, the choose a mean lifetime for their computations of 40 years. That seems a bit odd as 35 years would seem closer to the mean of all three ffs, but in the end it doesn't matter much as they provide results for lifetimes between 20 and 60 years.

Results see following post.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 02:28:41 PM by S.Pansa »

S.Pansa

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Re: Coal
« Reply #225 on: August 30, 2014, 12:30:27 PM »
Here the results:

This basic estimates result in a committed emission by 2012 (the last date with full data) of (see also fig 4):

Quote
"Global committed emissions from these generators total 629 (508 – 761) Gt CO 2 (light green area; only the central estimate reflecting a 40 year lifetime is shown), of which 322 Gt CO 2 were realized emissions by 2012 (black area), and 307 (192 – 439) Gt CO 2 were remaining commitments as of 2012 (dark green area). The error estimates in parentheses here are for assumed lifetimes of 30 and 50 years."

If the mean lifetime is reduced two 20 years, the committed emissions go down to 98 Gt CO2, if they run 60 years its 580 Gts.

Nota bene:
- This are the emissions only for the power generation sector.
- This are the future committed emissions for the applied lifetime, i.e. these are the emissions if not a single ff-plant would have gone online after 2012.

On top of these emissions we, of course,  have to add the emissions from the power-plants that were built since 2012 and will be built in the comming years. David and Socolow do not give an estimate of future emissions of theses ff-generators, they instead look at the growth-rates of the "committed emissions" since the 1950. They have found a lot of very interesting trends, for details see their paper p. 5ff.
In short: "committed emissions" are still growing, albeit slower as they have done in the past, at least for some ffs and some countries.
But if we want to really reduce our CO2-emissions the "committed emissions" would have to decrease, actually, and not grow further (in fig. 5 below that would be R-values below 0).

Hence while we should slow down, we are just accelerating slower.

Or as they put it in the conclusion:

Quote
"For instance, we estimate that the ‘ New Policies ’scenario in the IEA ’ s World Energy Outlook 2013 entails new global commitments of roughly 5 Gt CO 2 yr – 1 of coal generators and 3 Gt CO 2 yr – 1 of gas generators between 2012 and 2020, while the ‘ 450 scenario ’ would require overall reductions in the commitments from existing coal- fi red generators ( − 0.5 Gt CO 2 yr – 1 between 2012 and 2020, e.g., by early retirement or CCS retro fitting) and allow new commitments of ∼ 2 Gt CO 2 yr – 1 of gas generators over the same time period (assuming new generators with the lowest plausible carbon intensity given their fuel type) [24]. In comparison, figure 3(c) shows that gas generators brought online in 2012 represented ∼ 5 Gt CO 2 of new commitments — roughly twice the level of commitments in the IEA scenarios." p. 8
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 02:05:10 PM by S.Pansa »

S.Pansa

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Re: Coal
« Reply #226 on: August 30, 2014, 12:31:52 PM »
Uuups, the results, figure 4 is missing

Shared Humanity

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Re: Coal
« Reply #227 on: August 30, 2014, 03:18:42 PM »
Looks like the US might have hit peak coal about the same time as hitting peak CO2.





In part, this just captures the dramatic contraction in the U.S. economy during the "Great Recession".

Shared Humanity

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Re: Coal
« Reply #228 on: August 30, 2014, 03:23:41 PM »
Worldwide coal consumption increased 2.9% in 2012. This represents a dramatic reduction in growth over the previous couple of decades. We may be close to peak consumption of coal.

http://www.worldcoal.org/resources/coal-statistics/

JimD

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Re: Coal
« Reply #229 on: August 30, 2014, 04:10:58 PM »
Bob you express the same grasping at straws reaction that is crippling our chances of ever having a chance of substantially altering our future prospects.  Incremental improvements are not going to make much difference in the end result.  And constantly cherry picking localized and highly varying short term numbers are not providing an accurate picture.  Look at the totality of "progress"  on the issues like fossil fuel consumption, vehicle manufacturing, population growth, etc, etc over the last 5 years.  When compared to the scale of the problem we have made no meaningful difference.  In fact things are still getting worse.  Not that we  had time 5 years ago, but we certainly do not have time to wait the 40 years for this all to play out.

Even if 5 years from now the world is consuming only 80% of the coal we do now we will still be fucked.  And that result would constitute a miracle.

Well enough of this.  Back to my summer vacation.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #230 on: August 30, 2014, 05:58:21 PM »
Looks like the US might have hit peak coal about the same time as hitting peak CO2.





In part, this just captures the dramatic contraction in the U.S. economy during the "Great Recession".

You might want to see if coal consumption and CO2 emissions have turned back up toward the 'bad old days' as we've recovered from the Great Recession.


Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #231 on: August 30, 2014, 06:09:37 PM »

Jim, you've put a lot of energy into writing a lot of words.  It seems that you are working very hard to deny progress, for what reason I can't fathom.

Let's look at this part of your posts.

Quote
The BP 2013 Statistical Review of World Energy was released Wednesday.

Coal remains the worlds fastest growing fossil fuel.

http://www.platts.com/RSSFeedDetailedNews/RSSFeed/Coal/26015975

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/statistical-review-of-world-energy-2013.html

The 2013 BP Review covers data up to 2012.  Your first link states "Coal remained the world's fastest-growing fossil fuel in 2012".  That's two years ago, Jim.

China did not increase its coal consumption in 2013.  Consumption was flat.  That happened in the year after 2012.   In the first half of 2012 Chinese coal consumption fell a small amount.

All that inertia stuff?  Seems to have ended in China - the world's largest coal consumer.

The US has been reducing coal use and that will accelerate over the next few years.  One cannot burn coal in a closed plant.

Germany will burn less coal going forward.  Again, can't burn coal in a closed plant.




Shared Humanity

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Re: Coal
« Reply #232 on: August 30, 2014, 06:14:54 PM »

You might want to see if coal consumption and CO2 emissions have turned back up toward the 'bad old days' as we've recovered from the Great Recession.

I said "in part" and this is true. There was a dramatic drop in 2007 through 2009. I would imagine the consumption of coal has not rebounded as quickly as the economy because of the fracking revolution.

Also, part of China's reduction is due to a near collapse of their steel industry as construction across the country has ground to a halt.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #233 on: August 30, 2014, 06:18:17 PM »
Bob you express the same grasping at straws reaction that is crippling our chances of ever having a chance of substantially altering our future prospects.

.....

Even if 5 years from now the world is consuming only 80% of the coal we do now we will still be fucked.  And that result would constitute a miracle.



In my humble opinion, Jim, you do yourself and others a disservice by refusing to recognize progress. 

If we don't see what is working then we don't know where to focus our efforts.  If we don't recognize the progress we are making, while perhaps small, we stand to discourage ourselves and sit on our butts declaring that we are fucked as opposed to making an concerted effort to keep from getting fucked.

Quote
“A leaked draft of the (IPCC) report sent to governments in December suggests that in order to keep global temperature increases below 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 F) by the end of the century — the stated goal of international climate talks — emissions need to fall by 40-70 percent by 2050.”

http://www.evwind.es/2014/04/05/what-is-the-future-of-fossil-fuel/44609



If we can cut coal CO2 emission by 20% in the next 5 years then we are making tremendous progress toward a 40% to 70% cut in coal emissions by 2050.  We would have achieved 50% of the lower bound in only 14% of the allotted time.


Shared Humanity

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Re: Coal
« Reply #234 on: August 30, 2014, 06:18:42 PM »
Basically, this is how I feel. Until we are able to decouple the economy and its need for growth from fossil fuels, we are in deep trouble.

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Re: Coal
« Reply #235 on: August 30, 2014, 06:27:43 PM »
Basically, this is how I feel. Until we are able to decouple the economy and its need for growth from fossil fuels, we are in deep trouble.

Do you mean in the way that China has managed to decouple their economic growth from their use of coal?


Shared Humanity

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Re: Coal
« Reply #236 on: August 30, 2014, 06:31:32 PM »
Basically, this is how I feel. Until we are able to decouple the economy and its need for growth from fossil fuels, we are in deep trouble.

Do you mean in the way that China has managed to decouple their economic growth from their use of coal?



Chart looks good....clearly making progress although I am not entirely confident about the growth numbers. I do feel we are close to plateauing with coal, worldwide. Some of this reduction is due to an increasing reliance on natural gas for electricity generation. China is working hard on installing renewables. The U.S.? Not so much.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #237 on: August 30, 2014, 07:05:37 PM »
Quote
China is working hard on installing renewables. The U.S.? Not so much.

Just last night I was taking a look at the 2014 year to date numbers for US electricity generation.  Decided to update some graphs...





Now, I'll beat out the 'half full' crowd and point out that solar is not 1% of total US generation and wind is only 5%.  OK?  Still small.

But what the 'half full' crowd misses is that those are some very fast uptake rates.  And those rates come from recently massive cost decreases. 

Take a look at the relationship between cost and solar installation rates.  (BTW, they feedback on each other.  Dropping prices increases amounts installed.  Increasing installation rates helps drops price.)



Wind and solar installation is happening much faster than we observed with nuclear.  And since wind and solar are already affordable with clear downward price curves they are not likely to stall out as nuclear did when it could not be produced for an acceptable cost.

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Re: Coal
« Reply #238 on: August 30, 2014, 07:10:37 PM »
Again, very encouraging.

wili

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Re: Coal
« Reply #239 on: August 30, 2014, 07:14:50 PM »
Perhaps. Unfortunately, total CO2 levels in the atmosphere continue to rise at an accelerating rate. If coal is in fact plateauing, what is being burned faster? Or have feedbacks already kicked hard enough already to show up in increased atmospheric CO2 data?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Coal
« Reply #240 on: August 30, 2014, 07:48:22 PM »
CO2 (July to July) rose on average 2.07 ppm 2007 to 2013.  July 2013 to July 2014 the increase was 1.80%  That's 13% less than the previous six year average.

http://co2now.org/

Now, as I said earlier, one year does not demonstrate a change in slope.  It will take a few years to determine whether rate of growth has changed or whether 2014 was just 'noise'.

We're seeing coal use dropping in China and the US, the countries that burn 60% of all coal consumed in the world.  We're seeing increasing fuel efficiency in cars and planes.  Assuming that the recent decrease in CO2 growth might be the first year of slope change isn't totally ridiculous.

We'll have to wait to see how things work out.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #241 on: August 30, 2014, 08:35:54 PM »
After downloading annual CO2 levels, an 1.8 pmm is not unusual.  Year to year variation is fairly large. 

During the last 10  years the amount of growth has ranged from 0.89 ppm (2004) to 3.17 ppm (2005).

SATire

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Re: Coal
« Reply #242 on: August 30, 2014, 08:41:50 PM »
Hi folks - in case use of carbon is flat these years, we can safely assume that CO2 increase is about maximal these years. As Shared Humanity mentioned (edit: in the cars thread...), that is still similar to worst case, because there is no sign we will stop carbon emission anytime soon.

And still they plan new coal plants in Germany... OK, they are planned to replace older ones - but future emission is guaranteed by doing so. The only hope we may have is, that they plan dynamic plants, which burn only in times without wind and sun...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 08:49:28 PM by SATire »

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Re: Coal
« Reply #243 on: August 30, 2014, 08:58:02 PM »
Several years ago Germany decided to replace inefficient coal plants with more efficient "supercritical" plants as a way to decrease coal use and reduce emissions.  The initial plan was that by 2020, 11.3 gigawatts would be built allowing 18.5 gigawatts of coal power capacity to be decommissioned. 

Due to the success of renewables it appears that the 11.3 gigawatt number will be lowered by at least 3 GW.  Furthermore the newer plants will be more efficient, releasing less CO2 per unit electricity produced than are the ones they are replacing.  And the new coal plants are partially load-following which further cuts total emissions.

As of November 2013 some 49 power plants with a collective capacity of 7.9 GW have been submitted for decommissioning and 246 MW of generation has been closed.  Utilities in Germany are not allowed to close plants without receiving prior clearance by the government and this can take several months.

SATire

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Re: Coal
« Reply #244 on: August 30, 2014, 11:09:36 PM »
Bob, you are right with that. I only want to explain the last point (Utilities are not allowed to close plants): That is not because government loves regulations but to maintain grid stability. We have much higher quality standards here so a the grid control has to work out the consequence of each shut-down on grid stability. That become even more important with >25% renewables fluctuating in the grid.

And still it is not good to build new coal plants - within the life-time of those plants we will probably reach the limit of CO2 in the air. All additional coal burned makes it necessary to sequester that carbon later. It would be much more efficient and profitable in the long run, if we leave that wet dirty lignity in the soil instead of producing fine char coal later, just to bury it in the soil... Same is true of course for US fracking gas and Canada tar sands and Chinas black coal and so on.
So maybe we are doing much better here in Europe and also over there in China (per person that is very clear) - but again: Better is still far from good... and at some point US will have to start to keep up.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #245 on: August 30, 2014, 11:52:51 PM »
Yeah.  I probably should have added a bit about the closure review process re: making sure there's enough capacity available to keep the grid operating 24/365.

A couple points about Germany building coal plants. 

First, that decision was made when wind and solar were a lot more expensive.  There wasn't any way to know that prices would drop so quickly.

Second, Germany doesn't have large natural gas reserves but gets most of its NG from Russia.  We've been harshly reminded recently that it is not a good idea to link one's economy to Russia behaving "nice".

I'm not sure when the decision was made to build new coal plants in Germany was made.  At least a few years ago since it takes several years to take a large project from conception to completion.  That decision of pre-2010 (pre-cheap renewables and pre-Fukushima) is resulting in 18.5 GW of coal capacity being replaced with less than 8.5 GW of coal capacity.  And the ~8.5 GW will produce less CO2 per MWh.  So that's a 57+% drop in CO2 emissions for that portion of Germany's coal use.  And that ain't shabby. 

wili

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Re: Coal
« Reply #246 on: August 31, 2014, 12:48:41 AM »
"CO2 (July to July) rose on average 2.07 ppm 2007 to 2013.  July 2013 to July 2014 the increase was 1.80%  That's 13% less than the previous six year average."

Oh, pullease.

Please don't cherry pick.

It just makes you look like a denialist.

Really, I need see nothing else to convince me that you are essentially a troll here. I will attempt not to 'feed you' further.

But for others, I will point out the following graph from NOAA:



Out side of expected annual (not to mention f'ng monthly for X's f'ng sake!!!!) variation, the general trend is CLEARLY upward.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #247 on: August 31, 2014, 01:31:02 AM »
"CO2 (July to July) rose on average 2.07 ppm 2007 to 2013.  July 2013 to July 2014 the increase was 1.80%  That's 13% less than the previous six year average."

Oh, pullease.

Please don't cherry pick.

It just makes you look like a denialist.


I suppose you failed to read this comment?

Quote
After downloading annual CO2 levels, an 1.8 pmm is not unusual.  Year to year variation is fairly large. 

During the last 10  years the amount of growth has ranged from 0.89 ppm (2004) to 3.17 ppm (2005).

wili

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Re: Coal
« Reply #248 on: August 31, 2014, 10:40:07 AM »
Well, thanks for admitting that your statement that I quoted is irrelevant.

Meanwhile: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28942403

Full extent of global coal 'binge' is hidden
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 10:54:56 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #249 on: August 31, 2014, 04:57:03 PM »
Well, thanks for admitting you pulled the trigger before clearing leather.

Meanwhile, I'll just copy this over from the other place you posted the same thing -

Quote
wili - you link 2012 data.  I gave you 2013 and 2014 data that shows no growth of coal use in China past 2012.  In fact, a slight reduction in the first half of 2014.

How about we all leave 2012 behind and look at what is happening in the world in 2014?