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Will the CO2 hit 400 ppm this year?

Yes
83 (75.5%)
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Author Topic: Mauna Loa CO2  (Read 313984 times)

AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #250 on: June 04, 2014, 01:21:43 AM »
The Waugh et al (2013) reference cites modern day evidence (from the early 1990s to the late 2000's) that the Southern Ocean is beginning to vent more CO₂ into the atmosphere:

Darryn W. Waugh et al., (2013), "Recent Changes in the Ventilation of the Southern Oceans"; Science 339, 568; DOI: 10.1126/science.1225411

Abstract: "Surface westerly winds in the Southern Hemisphere have intensified over the past few decades, primarily in response to the formation of the Antarctic ozone hole, and there is intense debate on the impact of this on the ocean’s circulation and uptake and redistribution of atmospheric gases. We used measurements of chlorofluorocarbon-12 (CFC-12) made in the southern oceans in the early 1990s and mid- to late 2000s to examine changes in ocean ventilation. Our analysis of the CFC-12 data reveals a decrease in the age of subtropical subantarctic mode waters and an increase in the age of circumpolar deep waters, suggesting that the formation of the Antarctic ozone hole has caused large-scale coherent changes in the ventilation of the southern oceans."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #251 on: June 04, 2014, 01:43:21 AM »
According to the linked Mann et a (2014) reference (with a free pdf), the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (AMO) should be entering a warming phase now, so perhaps this may possibly be related to increased CO₂ venting from the Southern Ocean (and/or possibly the increasingly positive Pacific Decadal Oscillation, PDO, phase, and/or the recent El Nino condition):

Mann, M. E., B. A. Steinman, and S. K. Miller (2014), On forced temperature changes, internal variability, and the AMO, Geophys. Res. Lett., 41, 3211–3219, doi:10.1002/2014GL059233

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2014GL059233/abstract

Abstract: "We estimate the low-frequency internal variability of Northern Hemisphere (NH) mean temperature using observed temperature variations, which include both forced and internal variability components, and several alternative model simulations of the (natural + anthropogenic) forced component alone. We then generate an ensemble of alternative historical temperature histories based on the statistics of the estimated internal variability. Using this ensemble, we show, first, that recent NH mean temperatures fall within the range of expected multidecadal variability. Using the synthetic temperature histories, we also show that certain procedures used in past studies to estimate internal variability, and in particular, an internal multidecadal oscillation termed the “Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation” or “AMO”, fail to isolate the true internal variability when it is a priori known. Such procedures yield an AMO signal with an inflated amplitude and biased phase, attributing some of the recent NH mean temperature rise to the AMO. The true AMO signal, instead, appears likely to have been in a cooling phase in recent decades, offsetting some of the anthropogenic warming. Claims of multidecadal “stadium wave” patterns of variation across multiple climate indices are also shown to likely be an artifact of this flawed procedure for isolating putative climate oscillations."

free pdf of the Mann et al (2014) paper here:
http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/Mann/articles/articles/MannEtAlGRLPreprint.pdf
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #252 on: June 04, 2014, 01:53:20 AM »
I should also note for those that are not aware, but the Antarctic Bottom Water, AABW, traditionally sequesters large amounts of CO2 absorbed from the atmosphere into the ocean depths; however, recently (over the past say 20 to 30-years), the rate of AABW formation has decreased notably, so that the Southern Ocean has been absorbing and sequestering less CO2 for some time now (but this by itself is not sufficient to account for over 410 ppm CO2 average atmospheric readings over Antarctica; which (if correct) would require an emission source of CO2, such as venting from the Southern Ocean due to upwelling (see multiple threads in the Antarctic folder for additional discussions about the rate of AABW formation).
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jbatteen

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #253 on: June 04, 2014, 03:44:26 PM »
Perhaps it's not so much a source of carbon, but a lack of a sink?  There's very few plants for thousands of miles around Antarctica.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #254 on: June 04, 2014, 04:48:09 PM »
Here is an abstract for the "Waugh" paper.
http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/372/2019/20130269.abstract

A speed up of southern mode waters results in faster circulation and as a consequence faster ventilation of mode waters.The concurrent slowdown of Antarctic bottom water results in less movement of anthropogenic Co2 to depth but as mode water carries a larger portion of Co2 than deep water the increased upwelling and ventilation of mode waters is likely playing a larger role in the increase of atmospheric Co2 than the slowdown in bottom water formation.
 The increase in upwelled waters also brings up extra nutrients and as a result a likely increase in productivity... So the speed up probably results in a larger portion of anthropogenic carbon being transported to depth with mode water over the last few decades but older waters build up Co2 over time due to the carbon pump so the ventilation of  upwelled older mode water results in more Co2 ventilated than is being sequestered in downwelling processes.
   

AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #255 on: June 04, 2014, 05:08:16 PM »
jbatteen,

The vegetative absorption in the Antarctic area means plankton activity; however, the Waugh 2014 paper (see Bruce's link); clearly shows that the upwelled mode water brings up extra nutrients that are increasing (at least temporarily) plankton activity; and Waugh 2014 clearly states that "... the ventilation of upwelled older mode water results in more CO2 ventilated than is being sequestered in downwelling processes."

Thus, the big question is how significant is the ventilated CO2 from the southern mode waters.

Best,
ASLR
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 05:48:17 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #256 on: June 04, 2014, 05:43:16 PM »
First, as this is the "Mauna Loa CO2" thread, let me know if you think I should keep posting about the Southern Ocean contributions to atmospheric CO2 emissions; or whether I should open a new thread on this topic in the Science (or perhaps the Consequences) folder.

Second, A4R provides the following link to the source of the NOAA Metop IASI Satellite CO₂data:

http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/Products/atmosphere/soundings/iasi/index.html

When I went to this site, it appears that there are two satellites MetOp-1 and MetOp-2, that give very comparable findings, thus virtually eliminating the possibility of instrument error being the source of the +410 readings, and I post June 2 2014 CO2 plots from Metop1 at about 500mb and 900mb in the first two attached images; and for June 3 2014 from Metop2 also at about 500mb and 900mb in the third and fourth attached images,

The two images for approximately 900mb (near sea level) show that throughout the world (including the Arctic and the Southern Ocean) there are plenty of sources emitting CO2 at concentrations over +410ppm; however, the two approximately 500mb images show that at this altitude only the Antarctic CO2 concentrations remain above +410ppm.  Therefore, it is possible that the geopotential height well over Antarctica may be limiting the dispersion of the CO2 around the rests of the atmosphere (as the other concentrated emissions of CO2 from other parts of the world appear to be well mixed at this elevation).  This is both good news, and bad news.  The good news is that the southern mode water venting of CO2 is not exceptionally high; while the bad news is that the concentration of this long-lived CO2 over Antarctica will deepen the geopotential height well, which will accelerate the westerly winds which will result in more upwelling of mode water, for a positive feedback, that eventually could lead to relatively high polar amplification of global warming over Antarctica, resulting in accelerated ice mass loss and associated accelerated SLR contribution.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #257 on: June 04, 2014, 06:23:39 PM »
ASLR,

A speed up of southern mode waters results in faster circulation and as a consequence faster ventilation of mode waters.The concurrent slowdown of Antarctic bottom water results in less movement of anthropogenic Co2 to depth but as mode water carries a larger portion of Co2 than deep water the increased upwelling and ventilation of mode waters is likely playing a larger role in the increase of atmospheric Co2 than the slowdown in bottom water formation.
 The increase in upwelled waters also brings up extra nutrients and as a result a likely increase in productivity... So the speed up probably results in a larger portion of anthropogenic carbon . Etc.

This is my interpretation of Waugh an not a quote from the paper.
The processes of ventilation and sequestration of Co2 are relevant to the Keeling curve but maybe it's a bit afield for the " Mauna Loa Co2 " thread ? I'm interested however wherever you post. 

AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #258 on: June 04, 2014, 11:40:09 PM »
Bruce,
Thanks for clarifying your interpretation of the Waugh (2014) paper.  For the record, I provide the actual linked abstract for the Waugh (2014) paper below:

Darryn W. Waugh, (2014), "Changes in the ventilation of the southern oceans", Phil. Trans. R. Soc. A 13 July 2014 vol. 372 no. 2019 20130269; doi: 10.1098/rsta.2013.0269

http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/372/2019/20130269.abstract

Abstract: "Changes in the ventilation of the southern oceans over the past few decades are examined using ocean measurements of CFC-12 and model simulations. Analysis of CFC-12 measurements made between the late 1980s and late 2000s reveal large-scale coherent changes in the ventilation, with a decrease in the age of subtropical Subantarctic Mode Waters (SAMW) and an increase in the age of Circumpolar Deep Waters. The decrease in SAMW age is consistent with the observed increase in wind stress curl and strength of the subtropical gyres over the same period. A decrease in the age of SAMW is also found in Community Climate System Model version 4 perturbation experiments where the zonal wind stress is increased. This decrease is due to both more rapid transport along isopycnals and the movement of the isopycnals. These results indicate that the intensification of surface winds in the Southern Hemisphere has caused large-scale coherent changes in the ventilation of the southern oceans."

I think that I will leave the discussion of Southern Ocean CO₂ venting on this Mauna Loa thread, for the moment, as currently I do not that much more to add.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #259 on: June 05, 2014, 12:05:20 AM »
The following quote from a longer article from "The Antarctic Sun" (see link below), discusses how "replicate" cores were obtained by reentering the "WAIS Divide Core" hole at levels that showed abrupt climate change that occurred in the past on timescales of decades.  As such information is analyzed it will provide additional support for the risks that we are now facing and hopefully this abrupt climate change in the WAIS Divide Core is not related to either methane and/or CO2 emissions from the Southern Ocean:

http://antarcticsun.usap.gov/science/contenthandler.cfm?id=2858

"The eighth and final season of drilling operations in 2012-13 involved using a newly developed drill capable of reentering the original borehole and collecting more ice at specific depths of scientific interest. Specifically, this “replicate” core was drilled at locations where researchers have previously identified abrupt climate changes, when global temperature shifted on a timescale of decades."
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Laurent

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #260 on: June 08, 2014, 11:49:45 PM »

Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #261 on: June 14, 2014, 04:56:37 PM »
CO2now, June 1 - 7 2014, 401.82 ppm

Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #262 on: June 23, 2014, 10:19:39 AM »
  June 8 - 14 2014, 401.24 ppm

werther

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #263 on: June 23, 2014, 10:56:08 AM »
Yeah, PMT, it's still full throttle up, I guess:


crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #264 on: June 23, 2014, 03:14:23 PM »
Yeah, PMT, it's still full throttle up, I guess:

400.69 seems quite low compared with ESRL data

2014   6   1  2014.4151    401.82  7
2014   6   8  2014.4342    401.21  7
2014   6  15  2014.4534    401.00  7
and
June 22 - 401.15

seems like June will average over 401 perhaps even over 401.2.

Last 3 years declines from June to July have been:

2011   6    2011.458      393.72      393.72   
2011   7    2011.542      392.42      392.42
1.3

2012   6    2012.458      395.83      395.83
2012   7    2012.542      394.30      394.30
1.53

2013   6    2013.458      398.58      398.58
2013   7    2013.542      397.20      397.20
1.38

It is still looking like July will be under 400 but it could be close and if levels continue to hold up there is still a slim possibility of a 4th month over 400 this year.

Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #265 on: June 28, 2014, 09:01:14 AM »
Possibly the annual decrease has started:
June 15 - 21 2014, 401.00 ppm (+2,79 ppm from year ago)


LRC1962

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #266 on: June 28, 2014, 10:41:42 PM »

This seems to show that increases per yr follow a more or less linear line. Been away from math way too long to figure out what kind of curve that means, all I know it is a curve in the wrong direction.
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crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #267 on: June 29, 2014, 02:49:48 PM »
Possibly the annual decrease has started:
June 15 - 21 2014, 401.00 ppm (+2,79 ppm from year ago)

Yes.

2014   4  27  2014.3192    402.09  7           399.57    380.38    118.97
2014   5   4  2014.3384    401.90  6           399.54    380.98    118.65
2014   5  11  2014.3575    401.79  2           399.66    380.53    118.49
2014   5  18  2014.3767    401.73  7           399.88    380.50    118.49
2014   5  25  2014.3959    401.64  7           400.10    380.92    118.53
2014   6   1  2014.4151    401.82  7           399.30    379.87    118.93
2014   6   8  2014.4342    401.21  7           398.48    379.80    118.60
2014   6  15  2014.4534    401.00  7           398.21    379.56    118.74
2014   6  22  2014.4726    400.77  7           398.48    379.33    118.91

Seems the peak was early May. While there are a lot of weeks since that 402.09 with the first week in June at 401.82, it is only recently we can say the fall has begun.

June 28 - 400.18
June 27 - 400.35
June 26 - 400.58
June 25 - 400.90
June 24 - 400.97



Looks like daily readings have fallen by 3ppm from peak to latest value of 400.18. The required bounce for July to have a shot at staying above 400 is looking increasingly unlikely.


Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #268 on: July 02, 2014, 11:11:12 PM »
this rate, 2015 will be over 400ppm.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #269 on: July 04, 2014, 01:10:42 AM »
While tracking the CO2 concentration is vital, we should all remember that the atmospheric concentrations for other key greenhouse gases, such as methane and nitrous oxide are also going up (see the attached AGGI figure); which is particularly important when comparing future projections with paleo-evidence focused on CO2 concentrations (i.e. the paleo-cases likely did not have high CO2 concentrations combined with concurrent high levels of methane and nitrous oxide).
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JMP

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #270 on: July 04, 2014, 01:42:58 AM »
Point taken about the other greenhouse gasses... but

Average CO2 concentration has been over 400 ppm for three months now! 

Still as high as 400.40 on July 2. 


Climate Central article: http://www.climatecentral.org/news/co2-milestone-400-ppm-climate-17692


pikaia

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #271 on: July 05, 2014, 03:46:33 PM »
July 04 - 398.13, a drop of more than 2ppm! I wonder if this figure will be revised significantly?

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #272 on: July 06, 2014, 06:54:12 PM »
Curious, this graph shows readings rapidly dropping to 396 before recovering on 5th July but 4th July readings were fairly steady around 400. (Thought they used same readings but with different quality control and day start/end times.)



Revisions to ESRL figures usually happen but will they be substantial uplifts to the 398.13 - better wait and see.

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #273 on: July 09, 2014, 03:24:18 AM »
July 04 - 398.13, a drop of more than 2ppm! I wonder if this figure will be revised significantly?

Yes,

July 07 - 399.95
July 06 - 399.93
July 05 - 399.75
July 04 - 399.80
July 03 - 400.18

Looks like July will be under 400.

Oh they have now put up the June average:
June 2014:     401.14 ppm  up 2.56 on June 13

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #274 on: July 22, 2014, 02:32:06 PM »
Last weeks CO2 level:
2014   7  13  2014.5301    398.78  7           397.17

just 1.61 up on a year ago

July 20 - 397.56
July 19 - 397.64
July 18 - 398.61
July 17 - 398.73
July 16 - 399.05

and July 20 figure is less than 0.4 up on the week commencing 13 July 2013.

Yes I know, it is almost certainly just variation and will go back to being about 2.5ppm higher a year. But if we post large increases as potential cause for concern shouldn't we also post small increases to alleviate concern and to show a dispassionate fairness rather than being seen to be rabid wolf criers?

Bruce Steele

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #275 on: July 22, 2014, 04:42:08 PM »
Crandles, The  trend over the last sixty years is so relentlessly up that it mutes the small monthly variations in trend. There are times like this Jan-Feb where the trend breaks step and stalls a little while. It would be interesting to better understand why and I am looking forward to what the new satellite Co2 monitoring tells us about variations in sources as well as variability in the sinks.   

Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #276 on: August 03, 2014, 09:30:47 AM »
July 20 - 26 2014, 398.52 ppm (+2,1ppm)

Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #277 on: August 05, 2014, 07:57:26 AM »
  July 27-Aug. 2 2014,  397.68 ppm (+1,83 ppm)

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #278 on: August 05, 2014, 09:18:22 PM »
  July 27-Aug. 2 2014,  397.68 ppm (+1,83 ppm)

2014   7  27  2014.5685    397.69  7           396.85

looks like an increase of 0.84ppm to me.

though given last weeks 2.08 increase it probably doesn't mean much.
 2014   7  20  2014.5493    398.50  7           396.42



shows quite a lot of variation from 393 to nearly 399 in just a few hours.

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #279 on: August 07, 2014, 03:00:46 PM »
July CO2 level has been reported by ESRL:
Quote
July 2014:     399.00 ppm
July 2013:     397.20 ppm
Up 1.8ppm

Jim

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #280 on: August 13, 2014, 02:05:58 PM »
Hi Guys,
Does anyone know why both the Keeling Curve site and the ESRL site are missing data for the last 5 days or so? Is there an equipment/power fault, or is it just the holiday season  ;D ?

Oh, and pet peeve - could folks please embed an image of the data they are commenting on, rather than a link to the live page, as this gets updated daily and quickly becomes irrelevent to the point being addressed (Crandles Reply #272 and #278 above demonstrates this, but he is not alone! :) ).

Edited to correct numbering error and add smiley  :)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 02:44:48 PM by Jim »

Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #281 on: August 17, 2014, 06:06:38 AM »
2014 August 3-10  397.74 ppm (+1,78 ppm)

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #282 on: August 17, 2014, 03:02:26 PM »
Week commencing 10 Aug:
2014   8  10  2014.6068    397.13  5           395.11  (therefore up 2.02 on last year.)

Shared Humanity

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #283 on: August 17, 2014, 03:48:24 PM »
It would seem the ongoing acceleration in the  growth of CO2 concentrations  in the earth's atmosphere is  continuing unabated.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/#mlo_growth

F.Tnioli

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #284 on: August 18, 2014, 04:05:31 PM »
It would seem the ongoing acceleration in the  growth of CO2 concentrations  in the earth's atmosphere is  continuing unabated.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/#mlo_growth
Why wouldn't it? Kyoto protocol (even skipping how (in)efficient it was) - ended in 2012, and last i heard, they are not making any new legally binding agreement of the sort at least till 2020; forest fires in subpolar and moderate belts of the northern hemisphere during last few years are raging like never before (which is extra CO2, and not a small amount); emissions from fossil fuels and cement production show very clear correlation with world's gross product in dollars ( http://cdiac.ornl.gov/GCP/images/global_co2_emissions.jpg ), both rising steadily during a last decade, with the only exception of one bad year of 2008 - we all remember why.

Did you expect a miracle? Of course it's rising unabated. There are efforts to slow/halt it, but in compare to daily acitivities of billions of economically active humans - efforts to slow/helt rising CO2 are just... miserable. Not because people who try to help it - are incompetent or unable; but because they are so few in compare to billions of others (and dozens trillions USD of GDP they produce - most of which is made outta fossils in various ways).

And we can't even blame those billions - for many reasons, such as mass "culture" and propaganda they are constantly overfed with; such as physical inability to afford cleaner, but much more expensive technologies (most people of the world are not too far from being "poor" in economic terms, even in developed countries); legally binding contracts (you're a coal power station owner, and you want to switch to, say, thermal-solar? Pardon me, but your coal supplier won't be happy about it, and most likely you have legally binding, long-term contract with him, terminating which without his consent would probably bankrupt you right away; and this coal supplier himself probably have legally binding contracts with lots of other people - such as miners or coal mines, - who'd do the same if your coal supplier would suddenly shrink his production to the point of inability to buy minimally satisfying amounts of coal mined; etc).

In other words, there is a LOT of inertia in the existing industrial system; worst thing is, with every itnernal-combustion engine built, with every new mine opened, with every hole for oil drilled, - this inertia increases further, as every thing has an owner, who usually will do a lot to ensure profitable functioning of his property.

All IMHO, of course, but please show me if i am wrong somewhere. I'm always willing to learn.
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crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #285 on: August 18, 2014, 05:06:23 PM »
Last time I checked, it looked like the growth was less than exponential. So it would seem there is some reduction in carbon intensity of world production.

Yes we need cuts in ff carbon use not just reductions in carbon intensity. But given the inertia, I think we have to see reductions in carbon intensity before we can get to real cuts in ff carbon use.

Laurent

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #286 on: August 18, 2014, 09:34:46 PM »

F.Tnioli

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #287 on: August 19, 2014, 11:48:35 AM »
Chinese Coal Consumption Just Fell for the First Time This Century
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/justin-guay/chinese-coal-consumption_b_5687972.html?utm_hp_ref=green&ir=Green
No wonder. If they'd keep going with coal, then they would have no choice but to shift from selling canned fresh air (multi-billion-USD business in China in 2013) to putting much of its population into gas masks for all outside times. At least.

In terms of CO2 emissions, huffingtonpost is definitely cherry-picking and walking in rose glasses, though.

There are attempts to estimate the full picture of energy and fuels production and usage in China, one of most obvious and often cited one - is http://www.eia.gov/countries/cab.cfm?fips=ch . For the scale of the subject, it's not that long, and i like its style. The agency which made it - has quite solid reputation, too.

It predicts that China will become the largest oil importer this year, surpassing USA (already happened in Q4 2013, it says). And it mentions also that China became 2nd-large oil importer as recently as 2009. The gap between USA and Japan is large - the former imports ~1,5 times more oil than the latter, - and still, China lept through this gap in just 5 years. Which gives average annual growth of China oil imports at some 9%.

Its domestic oil production during same period was quite flat. The article predicts further and massive intensification in using liquid hydrocarbon fuels in China, including further growth of oil imports, and including almost 20% growth of domestic liquid fuel production by 2040 from things like (extremely dirty ecologically and in CO2 terms afaik) process of liquifying coal, and biofuels (massive use of at least some of which is disastrous in terms of land use - soil erosion, extra CO2 emissions due to that, among other things).

If to read about China's oil domestic oil production in detail (within the said paper), then it becomes quite obvious that "flat" oil production in fact creates more and more CO2 per barrel of oil pumped out, as aging oil fields of China require (and most already use) more complex methods to keep production from declining: hydraulic fracturing, steam and polymer flooding, water injection, CO2 injection and "others". All those require power - and lots of power if to talk China's scale, - to be implemented; and most power in China comes from where? Yep, from fossil fuels. The more such "enhanced oil recovery" methods are in use, and the more complex (energy intensive) they get - the more CO2 ends up being emitted by the oil industry.

Recent unprecedentally massive and long-term gas deal signed by China and Russia promises gigatons more of CO2 emitted in China. Overall gas consumption in the country is also quickly rising up until now and is expected to continue its rise. Much like with oil, China's imports of gas skyrocketed since the middle of 2000s. And that's even with tripled during 2002...2012 decade domestic production of gas, according to the same paper! Granted, natural gas is cleaner fuel than coal - i mean, some ~2 times less CO2 emitted per unit of energy generated, and it can work as vehicle's fuel in liquified form, too, - but with such a growth in oil and gas consumption, China's CO2 emissions will still continue to rise (assuming nearly flat coal consumption for at least few next years, that is).

China is aggressively looking to use its own shale gas reserves, too. It's one quite dirty tech with low EROEI, i hear. In other words, more CO2 per every car's gas tank full of fuel.

Water problem is also there. For a while - until quite much of mountain glaciers are still there, thawing, - China will have more-than-normal runoff from them. It's no joke, the country's largest rivers which literally feed a billion+ people - are created by those glaciers. But when most (eventually nearly all) of those glaciers melt out completely - increased runoff will halt, dry seasons will start downstream (late summer/autumn). Apart from a big hit to agriculture (and very life of hundreds of millions), this will also be a big punch to "advanced" gas technologies - synthetic gas, gas-from-coal, etc. As those demand lots of water (no wonder - coal is carbon, to create _hydro_carbons from it - one needs lots of water to get those hydrogen atoms from, and lots of power to make it happen, of course). Competition between people and large-scale  industrial complexes will be ugly, to say the least. And dirty. Nobody will count how much CO2 goes out, when their very _existance_ (as a person, family or a business) is at stake "right now!".

Further in the said document, we see graphs for known and projected (by 2040) electricity generation in China. We see
 - hydro dropping from present ~22% to ~18%. Just mentioned glaciers melt (and eventual decrease of present "temporarily increased" annual runoff) is involved in that decline, i am sure. Anyhows, hydro potential has its limit, and China is quite close to it already (and the world as a whole also is, in general);
 - wind growing from ~5% now to ~12%. No wonder it's so little: intermittency problems and availability of wind resources, lands and matherials for large-scale wind farms are among most limiting factors for Wind power generation;
 - nuclear growing from ~1% now to ~7%. No wonder it's so little: presently economically viable fission power plants suffer from fuel availability - all the richest ores are already used, price of nuclear fuel goes up dramatically during last ~2 decades last i heard. Plus, this is a pie most countries of the world will want to bite, and China - with its size, - won't have a luxury to have any bigger bite than ~7% of its electricity generation in 2040, it seems;
 - solar growing from ~0,2% now to ~2% by 2040. Not surprised either. Solar technologies are good on paper and for some rich western families who have all the dollar needed to set them up and use. But when it's about industrial and general grid large-scale solar power plants - it gets expensive as hell to set up and to maintain, and it has even worse intermittency (daily, seasonal and weather-related - clouds) than wind, and it still uses much land, too (in compare to things coal-based, gas-based, nuclear or hydro);
 - "other renewables" (which includes biomass/waste) are projected to grow from some ~1% to ~3%. That's by 2040. Huffingtonpost's "renewables is the future" is... Overoptimistic, at least;
 - coal, now generating ~66% of China's electricity, is projected to still generate ~52% of it by 2040. Renewables in China being the future of energy generation?? Not by 2040, they won't be - coal will still be the king. So then, when??? By 2100, when world will already have some 800+ ppm CO2 and totally mad climate, desertification in most of Europe, Americas and Asia (see professor Emilio Dai works and maps for projected change of PDSI)?

I hate to upset people. But i hate more when some paper tries to make people think that things change for the better - while in fact, if to see at the whole picture, they surely are not.


It's psychology. Most people _want_ to believe things are going to be OK. Even if this is not what happens before their eyes. Yet, not me. Not me. And i hope, not you, jentlemen.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:54:00 AM by F.Tnioli »
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DoomInTheUK

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #288 on: August 19, 2014, 01:06:32 PM »
FT,

Yep, that seems like a fairly acurate state of Chinas position. I think that the coal-to-liquids route will be taken fairly soon and quite aggresively too. It's an exceptionally dirty process, but if you ignore the pollution(!!!!!) then with current coal stocks they can have liquid fuel for many years to come.

Sadly, that's the line of thinking that I see being taken.

Mr Keeling's curve will continue along it's path for many decades yet, and we'll just have to try and live with new and interesting weather.

F.Tnioli

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #289 on: August 20, 2014, 11:02:19 AM »
FT,

Yep, that seems like a fairly acurate state of Chinas position. I think that the coal-to-liquids route will be taken fairly soon and quite aggresively too. It's an exceptionally dirty process, but if you ignore the pollution(!!!!!) then with current coal stocks they can have liquid fuel for many years to come.

Sadly, that's the line of thinking that I see being taken.

Mr Keeling's curve will continue along it's path for many decades yet, and we'll just have to try and live with new and interesting weather.
I agree about "fairly soon", but i doubt "quite aggressively", though - i mean, significant amount of it will show up rather soon, but it'll remain quite minor and relatively slowly growing source of fuels for at least several decades.

Reason? It's quite expensive process. Hitler's regime was using it on a large scale to fuel its tank armies using Germany's own coal reserves; four methods of producing (mainly diesel) fuel from coal were known even back then, in 1930s (see https://jtf.org/forum/index.php?topic=266.0 for some details, for example). Basically, the process involves higher pressures, high temperatures, and requires large source of hydrogen - which in practice means using high amount of water (which is not exactly over-abundant in China) and lots of energy to split water molecules - H2O - into 2x H2 (hydrogen) and O2 (oxygen). On top of that, gas mixture of H2 + O2 is quite volatile, and is an extremely potent explosive by weight.

I believe that making hydrocarbon liquid fuels outta coal, while known for several decades, is not much practiced since WW2 exactly because of those difficulties - which ultimately mean much higher price of fuel created. But now, hitting quite a ceiling in terms of _burning_ coal, China will quickly grow desperate about its energy balance, and thus the country will likely start to use coal-to-fuel technologies on a significant, if still relatively minor, scale - to "fill a part of gap between demand and shrinking/flat production", so to say.

Back during WW2, Hitler had no choice but to use those methods, plus, he had the luxury of war time (and thus, a way to enforce non-profitable processes upon "usually market-based" producers). Nowadays, there are other "unconventional" ways to make liquid fuels, such as shale oil (dirty as hell process, but still cheaper than liquifying coal, i believe, at least when working with rich enough tar sands and such), shale gas, all those "enhanced oil extraction" methods, liquifying natural gas and probably some others. Those will be ones taken quite aggressively before liquifying coal route; we are seeing use of those methods on an amazingly accelerating pace and scale during recent years. As usual, there will be a "peak" of production from each particular technology; after most peaks will be past, and few if any new technologies will be found (laws of physics don't allow endless invention of new-and-better ways to produce anything), and assuming demand will still be growing - then it will be time for aggressive liquifying-coal era.

Which quite likely global industrial system won't manage to survive into, though. And yep, learning to live with new and interesting weather is what humans will be forced to do. Especially after most of industrial aerosols will settle down, unleashing full power of extra greenhouse effect (presently much masked by said aerosols and consequent global and regional dimming effects). Thus humans better prepare for it. Those who will fail to do so will suffer, no question about it. Possibly most of them will die, even. We'll see.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 11:08:20 AM by F.Tnioli »
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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #290 on: August 25, 2014, 05:52:12 PM »
 Week starting on 20140817   396.78ppm (+1,89ppm)

F.Tnioli

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #291 on: August 27, 2014, 04:39:22 PM »
http://co2now.org/Current-CO2/CO2-Now/global-co2-board.html says it was 399.00 ppm for this July, up from 397.20 in July 2013. So, +1.8 for July. Somewhat below average 2.07 for the last decade (http://co2now.org/Current-CO2/CO2-Trend/acceleration-of-atmospheric-co2.html). But before one could get a faintest of hope, there is that June 2014 with its average monthly 401.30, up from 2013's June which was 398.78 - i.e., thus June raised the bar by 2.52. Average between 1.8 and 2.52 - is 2.16, which is just as much above 2.07 (which is, again, average annual increase during last decade) as i'd expect it to be for "business as usual" going on.
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NeilT

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #292 on: September 01, 2014, 09:46:44 PM »
There is only one thing which is certain.  It will be higher next year and it will be ~2ppm more, on average, at the end.

this trend continues.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #293 on: September 06, 2014, 06:20:50 AM »
  Mauna Loa CO2,  Week of 20140824 - 20140830, 396,29ppm,  (+1,94ppm in a year,) , (+19,85ppm in ten years).  That's +~5% in ten years, pretty poorly if that was the expected rise in value on stock markets.

Laurent

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #294 on: September 09, 2014, 09:07:38 AM »
Greenhouse gas levels rising at fastest rate since 1984
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29115845

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #295 on: September 12, 2014, 07:10:29 PM »
Quote
August 2014:     397.01 ppm
August 2013:     395.15 ppm

September 11 - 394.19
September 10 - 394.59
September 09 - 395.16
September 08 - 395.51
September 07 - 395.62

394.19  :o
Looks like there was a single reading under 393 last year:


May get revised upwards of course.



Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #296 on: September 29, 2014, 04:11:55 AM »
 Sept. 14 - 20, 2014, 394.63 ppm (+1,21 ppm)
, "but that's pretty small??" "hah, it's the longer growing season on NH at work here. We're about to turn the annual minimum corner of the curve hereabouts, watch the CO2 shoot up in about a week of now. December, January, or February for the 400ppm?"

and the update could be:
Week beginning on September 21, 2014: 395.35 ppm  (+1,99ppm rise
from the Weekly value from 1 year ago:     393.36 ppm)

(addendum, trailing average of Global CO2, with a linear trendline. it doesn't look like it's slowing down or even downshifting)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 08:41:34 AM by Pmt111500 »

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #297 on: September 29, 2014, 03:08:13 PM »
(addendum, trailing average of Global CO2, with a linear trendline. it doesn't look like it's slowing down or even downshifting)

That certainly looks like it is accelerating so growing faster than linear trend.

But for linear trend in temperatures, need exponential trend in CO2 growth. While CO2 growth is faster than linear, I suspect it is slower than exponential (I have not checked this recently) and therefore temperature rise should be less than linear.

Pmt111500

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #298 on: September 29, 2014, 03:38:08 PM »
(addendum, trailing average of Global CO2, with a linear trendline. it doesn't look like it's slowing down or even downshifting)

That certainly looks like it is accelerating so growing faster than linear trend.


Just pointing out that I'm not seeing any slowing down because of various conferences on this issue. The delays inherent in ocean response (f.e. as seen in the wobbles in arctic ice amounts in sequential years) to higher atmospheric temperatures make this image just a signpost of where we could eventually land, since the ocean T hasn't even nearly catched up with the expected value of temperature at this ghg-level.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #299 on: September 29, 2014, 04:33:09 PM »
(addendum, trailing average of Global CO2, with a linear trendline. it doesn't look like it's slowing down or even downshifting)

That certainly looks like it is accelerating so growing faster than linear trend.

But for linear trend in temperatures, need exponential trend in CO2 growth. While CO2 growth is faster than linear, I suspect it is slower than exponential (I have not checked this recently) and therefore temperature rise should be less than linear.

crandles,
Your statement that linear growth in global surface temperatures needs exponential growth in CO2 ignores the positive feedback mechanisms associated with global warming.  As indicated by the attached image (with the following caption) from Meinshausen et.al. (2011), even linear growth of atmospheric CO2 concentrations for RCP 8.5 result in linear increases in mean global surface temperatures, beyond 2100:

Figure caption: "For RCP 8.5 and RCP 3-PD/2.6, Actual and Projected Values for: (a) Atmospheric CO2 Concentrations; (b) Radiative Forcing, and (c) Global-mean Surface Temperature Differences from Pre-Industrial Levels, from Meinshausen et.al. 2011"

Best, ASLR
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