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Author Topic: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century  (Read 43846 times)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2014, 09:11:48 PM »
Look, we have to recycle and substitute more.  Looking hundreds of years down to road to see if there's a problem we don't know how to solve right now might satisfy something in your need to roll about in despair, but I'm simply not interested. 

(I looked at your links but saw nothing about running out of sand for solar panels.)

We need to toss the EROEI concept out the window when it comes to renewable energy.  Our energy sources are not limited in any meaningful way.  Cost of production is a factor but rising cost will drive more recycling and substitution.

We'll get kicked around from time to time as one entity or another gets its debt level too high to maintain.  Then it will go bankrupt.  Lots of people will loose "paper wealth".  And we'll reboot. 

We're already growing enough food to feed 10 billion people.  We're wasting a very large percentage of what we produce and we're using a significant amount in an inefficient way by processing it through livestock for protein.

Our crop strains are improving and will improve more.  We have grains that bear heavier crops and are more resistant to drought. Rice that tolerates being flooded for longer periods. We're figuring out how to grow with brackish water.  We're growing meat in the lab with incredibly lower inputs than raising cattle.

I am not saying, have never said, that we won't get by without some suffering. 

And I'm not saying, have never said, that we will absolutely avoid severe climate change.

I'm saying we have the technology and ability to get our GHG emissions under control, if we choose to do so.  And that the hair of fire "civilization is crashing" stuff is bunk.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2014, 10:25:31 PM »
It should be apparent that predicting the future without looking very closely at the present will likely yield flawed outcomes.
 I am currently living through a drought. There are at least six threatened  or endangered species that
I share space with here in the floodplain. The farmers don't hesitate to plant crops and run their pumps , some pumps almost 24/7.  The river is drying up and the endangered Steelhead in the shrinking ponds left  will never make the ocean. Now the farmer feeds the world and progress is progress but to the fish going extinct well civilization didn't work out so well. The pumps and tractors and round-up and fertilizers are all produced with fossil fuel and nobody has a clue how to re-engineer all that. But we are feeding the world that way and most of us rationalize it as progress but those blinders are laying waste in the river today, and there ain't a tear shed over it.
 I am also an acidification doomer. There are shellfish ( pteropods  + oysters ) that are already suffering and once the oceans sop up the Co2 we have already committed it to well there will be bigger hits, more species ,in more places dying, and even if we hit those 40% emission targets time and the remaining 60% we do emit will continue to kill more and more as the pH continues to drop.oh well , progress. And you can rationalize it like we all do and rationalize it as it transpires, and the coral reefs fail, we will continue to farm with fossil fuels . You would find many of those farmers in complete denial and righteous about feeding the world . There is really no other way to feed them all and so we continue on.
 So I would like to make the point one more time that we need to accept a little more failure maybe, a lot more inconvenience, and maybe something like the pain we so cavalierly dispense . Maybe little pockets of regional extinction... to even things out a bit. There just isn't anyway to sugar coat it, getting Co2 emissions down to near zero by 2100 will require enormous pain and some sort of dieback. Somehow, somewhere there will be a balance between the pain we inflict and the pain we receive .


   

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2014, 10:37:00 PM »
At least now his arguments make a little more sense. The problem, I think, is we don't choose to do so, ie change the fatal emission trends. And the reason we don't choose to do so is the intense lobbying that led to the lax wording of the two last IPCC reports. There's no hurry. These coal fired power stations will stop working in 50 years' time. Then we'll close them down. Be happy.

PS: Bruce, I love that. So true.

"Somehow, somewhere there will be a balance between the pain we inflict and the pain we receive."
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 10:45:20 PM by viddaloo »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2014, 11:08:28 PM »
Quote
At least now his arguments make a little more sense.

My arguments? 

My arguments haven't changed.  Perhaps you're starting to be less of a pessimist and starting to look for solutions?

We agree that the fossil fuel interests have slowed the transition by muddying the water.  And they'll do some more before they are done.  But each year renewables get cheaper and the knowledge about how to incorporate them on grids increases.  Wind and solar have now become large enough industries to afford to do some lobbying on their own and conservative states are starting to understand the jobs and revenues they bring to struggling states.

And we've seen the US states with the most wind installed enjoying dropping electricity prices while, on average, the other states are paying more.  More people are going to be wanting some of those lower prices as the word gets out.

Change is incremental.  Incremental, and thankfully in this case, accelerating.  Even Russia is starting to install some large solar projects.

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/10/solar-pv-development-russia-accelerating/


viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2014, 11:45:06 PM »
Quote
At least now his arguments make a little more sense.

My arguments? 

My arguments haven't changed.  Perhaps you're starting to be less of a pessimist and starting to look for solutions?

Bob, I'm the biggest optimist in this thread. I'm just not overly optimistic about this century.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2014, 11:50:31 PM »
'scuse me.  Anyone see my hip waders?  It's getting kind of deep in here....   ;D

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2014, 02:33:33 AM »
Germany Moves Away From 2020 Climate Targets

Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel (SPD) seeks to avoid excessively rapid disconnection of the power plants from the grid. It would be “an illusion to believe that Germany could simultaneously phase out nuclear power and coal,” he says. Gabriel may also introduce a delay of the climate action programme which will be tabled at the Cabinet meeting on December 3, according to SPIEGEL information. - See more at: http://www.thegwpf.com/germany-moves-away-from-2020-climate-targets/#sthash.8zFiOmhN.dpuf

«Ist doch klar, daß das Ziel nicht zu halten ist.»
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2014, 06:27:58 AM »
Gabriel is protecting the German fossil fuel industry's profits.

Germany could easily close a bunch of coal plants and just quit selling so more electricity to other countries.

Good old Spiegel has become the mouthpiece of dirty energy, hasn't it?

domen_

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2014, 04:47:42 PM »
That is incredibly irresponsible of him and of German government.

They could retrofit CCS on a lot of coal plants and meet emissions targets, but apparently they're more interested in polluting.

Neven

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2014, 07:21:42 PM »
Things coming from Spiegel and GWPF require about a pound of salt most of the time.
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domen_

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2014, 01:44:33 PM »
But still, there is no real reason why Germany should abandon 2020 targets (40% reduction over 1990, iirc). Coal industry seems to have won this battle.

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2014, 02:03:38 PM »
But still, there is no real reason why Germany should abandon 2020 targets (40% reduction over 1990, iirc). Coal industry seems to have won this battle.

Or Obama? Didn't he say something about 'leading the world' the other day? This may be Germany's way of getting in line. America is as always ambitiously unambitious. Another reason to bite the apple and embrace Darkness.
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SATire

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2014, 04:18:19 PM »
It is a long tradition of social-democratic party in Germany (SPD) to help coal (or to help those old-school workers digging that stuff - or to help those cities owning RWE shares in NRW, which is still the SPD mainland).

So please do not expect much good things against climate change from any government with SPD participation and without a corrective Green party participation.

But the 40% reduction goal still holds and also Gabriel says that. However, it is unlikely to reach that goal if nobody really works for that. But the goal is so nice so we will keep it - maybe even after 2020 ;-)

ccgwebmaster

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2014, 06:10:07 PM »
America is as always ambitiously unambitious. Another reason to bite the apple and embrace Darkness.

Watch what America does, not what it says. They're plenty ambitious, in the ugliest of ways.

As for embracing darkness, that's ultimately defeatist and self fulfilling, you're welcome to it though. Some of us prefer to stand and fight, even if some of us draw our lines well into territory most would call dark.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2014, 08:20:08 PM »
Quote
They're plenty ambitious, in the ugliest of ways.

That's an interesting claim.  What do you mean?

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2014, 05:27:25 PM »
As for embracing darkness, that's ultimately defeatist and self fulfilling, you're welcome to it though. Some of us prefer to stand and fight, even if some of us draw our lines well into territory most would call dark.

I think I've laid out in this thread why it's not, so you may want to read up/refresh.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2014, 06:14:14 PM »
I went back to the beginning of the thread where you laid out your belief...

Quote
I believe the great ecophilosopher Næss had these things in mind when he said he was an optimist for the 22nd century. There will be a crash, and it will be utterly devastating, but it won't be the end of all life

I read through most of the first page where you defended your belief but got tired of reading.  How about a quick update?  Do you still believe humans are absolutely heading for an utterly devastating crash?

If not, what is your current belief?


viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2014, 06:42:03 PM »
Bob,

I think it's sad that you got tired of reading me. That tells me I must do a better job the next time!
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wili

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2014, 08:48:57 PM »
Apologies if this has already been posted somewhere, but it seems rather appropriate to this discussion: http://climateandcapitalism.com/2014/09/28/think-apocalyptic-turn-despair-action/

Think apocalyptic – and turn despair into action

Contrary to the critics of ‘catastrophism,’ building an effective counterforce to the multiple crises we face requires us to get apocalyptic.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2014, 09:39:38 PM »
Quote
In these circumstances, anxiety is rational and anguish is healthy, signs not of weakness but of courage. A deep grief over what we are losing — and have already lost, perhaps never to be recovered — is appropriate. Instead of repressing these emotions we can confront them, not as isolated individuals but collectively

Love it! A kindred spirit :)

Thanks, wili.

Quote
Other delusional assertions — such as the claim that capitalism is compatible with basic moral principles, meaningful democracy, and ecological sustainability — require more effort to take apart (perhaps because there seems to be no alternative).

 ;D
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 11:45:26 PM by viddaloo »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2014, 03:01:46 AM »
Bob,

I think it's sad that you got tired of reading me. That tells me I must do a better job the next time!

I'll repeat what I wrote as you apparently failed to even finish reading my rather short post...

Quote

Do you still believe humans are absolutely heading for an utterly devastating crash?

If not, what is your current belief?

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2014, 04:10:04 AM »
Ohno. Not after the revelation that China plans to keep polluting more and more, as much as they can, for another 16 years, before slowly capping their carbon bonanza and start thinking about emission cuts. This changes everything, to quote Naomi  ;D
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2014, 05:05:05 AM »
So you'd rather post some misinformation than engage in reasonable exchange?

OK, that's your decision.  We earn our reputations.

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2014, 05:11:46 AM »
It’s time to get apocalyptic, or get off the pot, to paraphrase Jensen.
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viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2014, 05:23:41 AM »
I went back to the beginning of the thread where you laid out your belief...

Quote
I believe the great ecophilosopher Næss had these things in mind when he said he was an optimist for the 22nd century. There will be a crash, and it will be utterly devastating, but it won't be the end of all life

I read through most of the first page where you defended your belief but got tired of reading.  How about a quick update?  Do you still believe humans are absolutely heading for an utterly devastating crash?

If not, what is your current belief?

Today? I'd say we're absolutely heading for a 99.98% utterly devastating crash, but ask me again tomorrow!  :D
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ccgwebmaster

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #75 on: November 21, 2014, 06:36:36 AM »
As for embracing darkness, that's ultimately defeatist and self fulfilling, you're welcome to it though. Some of us prefer to stand and fight, even if some of us draw our lines well into territory most would call dark.

I think I've laid out in this thread why it's not, so you may want to read up/refresh.

I don't think I understand your position, and I did glance at the earlier part of the thread?

Let me clear - to restate what I have stated numerous times in other threads - I expect civilisation is highly likely to collapse, and I take the stance that it is likely to collapse to lower levels and faster than most commentators. My argument is that for those who would act, there is merit in adopting positions designed to attempt to deal with that outcome (especially as virtually nobody else does so, and plenty assume upon non collapse in their actions).

As such I have a personal response to collapse - that I am actually doing, which to me matters far more than merely sitting around talking. So where is the darkness I should embrace? I have a plan - flawed and insane though it might be - and I am trying to implement it. What are you doing?

ccgwebmaster

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #76 on: November 21, 2014, 06:41:29 AM »
Quote
They're plenty ambitious, in the ugliest of ways.

That's an interesting claim.  What do you mean?

Probably a lot of this stuff was already discussed in (more on topic) threads like:
http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,617.0.html
http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,306.0.html

I suspect neither of us has much new to add though.

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #77 on: November 21, 2014, 06:58:36 AM »
Let me clear - to restate what I have stated numerous times in other threads - I expect civilisation is highly likely to collapse, and I take the stance that it is likely to collapse to lower levels and faster than most commentators. My argument is that for those who would act, there is merit in adopting positions designed to attempt to deal with that outcome (especially as virtually nobody else does so, and plenty assume upon non collapse in their actions).

As such I have a personal response to collapse - that I am actually doing, which to me matters far more than merely sitting around talking. So where is the darkness I should embrace? I have a plan - flawed and insane though it might be - and I am trying to implement it. What are you doing?

AFAIK, acting or planning to act with intention to alter the ways of the corporate elite running our planet to a grinding halt, is illegal and shouldn't be talked about over the internet. Multi–decadal prison sentences may result, even just for thinking about doing something that might change these ways somewhat. This is not to dismiss your comment, only to keep you out of jail.
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ccgwebmaster

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2014, 11:57:37 AM »
AFAIK, acting or planning to act with intention to alter the ways of the corporate elite running our planet to a grinding halt, is illegal and shouldn't be talked about over the internet. Multi–decadal prison sentences may result, even just for thinking about doing something that might change these ways somewhat. This is not to dismiss your comment, only to keep you out of jail.

That assumes that one is doing anything along those lines though. Collapse is inclusive, unless you think the socioeconomic elites at the top of the pyramid are somehow exempted when the base of the pyramid implodes? Ie why does one need to be particularly concerned with such people if you think collapse is highly likely?

Developing the capability to become detached from the system before it goes down is hardly a revolutionary act, presuming one is not acting to subvert the system itself (seems pointless and high risk when the system seems to be on track to collapse regardless).

As a minor matter of note to subvert the system does require people talk about it, and in numbers too high to be squashed by the surveillance apparatus and police state being assembled rapidly by many nations (with particular reference to the US and UK). For people not to talk about it is precisely the desired outcome of the security state - as they cannot rule by brute force of numbers, only by fear and propaganda. If I bought into the view that the masses would act in time with sufficient response, I'd be far more active in that respect - but the signs so far are much too little, much too late (and we are all ultimately responsible for what we do or do not do, not just those we let sit atop the socioeconomic pyramid).

In that sense the least that we can do is talk about subverting the system, to at least provide cover for those who truly would. The modern world is built upon evils sufficient that it should be a moral duty for all participating within it to make some fundamental changes to it.

As it happens I think (following the Snowden materials) that I have good reason to expect I would fall well within the surveillance dragnet, and most likely for a reason totally unrelated to climate change (and other collapse issues) but the mere coincidence of who I know in an entirely innocuous context. The nice gentlemen with the monopoly on force haven't shown up... yet.

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2014, 12:14:32 PM »
Just pointing out that in Norway it's now illegal to maybe think about doing something that could lead to a change of policies. At least if authorities have reason to believe you could be thinking such thoughts, and without the need for any hard evidence.
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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #80 on: November 21, 2014, 06:54:45 PM »
Just pointing out that in Norway it's now illegal to maybe think about doing something that could lead to a change of policies. At least if authorities have reason to believe you could be thinking such thoughts, and without the need for any hard evidence.

And this is always a timely reminder, though though there are plenty of other countries (if not all other countries) where the basic idea of justice and freedom are just glossy propaganda spins sold to the population (at best, some don't even bother with much gloss). You can be free anywhere - provided you remain within the prison cage of the status quo as dictated to you (or you don't mind taking your chances, which requires either intelligence or force of numbers).

Personally I am somewhat past worrying about it, although that isn't to say I would rush into enumerating the reasons I ought to worry - or even most of them.

These things will of course generally worsen as collapse approaches. Those who sit atop the pyramid will want to preserve their status at all costs, and will need to resort to all means to do so (we've already seen hints of this, albeit quickly forgotten and overlooked by most).

Bob Wallace

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #81 on: November 22, 2014, 12:21:01 AM »
Quote
These things will of course generally worsen as collapse approaches.

Why would you say that as opposed to

Quote
These thing will of course generally worsen if collapse approaches.

You earlier stated that you did not believe collapse to be 100% certain but now you speak as if you do.

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2015, 10:42:58 PM »
I also find virtually nobody seems willing to address that particular niche of thought - either they are of the mentality they must remain with the herd as it struggles (and likely fails), or they are of the mentality that all is doom and there is no hope.

Why is the middle ground so sparse?
(Most) people are (mostly) directed by their feelings and emotions, that's why. So they're either clinging onto hope and shutting everything else out, or they've given up all hope and don't allow themselves to even look for solutions. People just love simplistic black&white pictures.

It's easier on their psyche to just make a total switch.
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wili

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2015, 05:38:51 AM »
Whyyyyy, I think some of you fellers need a tad more o' that hopium stuff in yer diet! Here's just what the doctor ordered, free of charge:

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/the-year-the-climate-dam-of-denial-breaks-ready-for-the-flood-24144

The year the climate ‘dam of denial’ breaks – ready for the flood?

Quote
So will these six drivers [US/China deal, oil price collapse, solar price continual drop, economic disruption, big business conversions, and accelerating physical impacts] be enough?

Will the economic impacts of collapsing fossil fuels and collapsing cities force the invisible hand of the market to do what governments have failed to do?

Not by itself, but it could tip a system that is primed and ready...

... for all the complaints about the influence of corporates on policy, that very influence could now tip the debate in favour of action.

Given all these indicators, I think there are enough cracks in the dam of denial to argue it is about to break...

(Actually, there are some good things about this article, and it isn't quite as panglossian as my selected quotes might make it sound...worth a read, I think.)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

viddaloo

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2015, 08:07:22 AM »
Article is so loaded if I had a plastic bullshit detector button I'm afraid the batteries would run out while reading it. Climate Change didn't help create ISIS, our Mighty Ally did. And despite the intriguing headline and all, there wasn't even a mention of the OSM — the 'Oh Sh!t Moment' — when events in the Arctic or opposite — the Antarctic — make things so effin obvious it is no longer possible to deny even for mass media 'experts' or pundits.

For ice aficionados the question of whether the OSM will come this melt season is an interesting one, however in a discourse where most people agree we are at least one or two decades late to the starting line, a 2015 or 2017 OSM is not of much interest. Psychologically it may change some more hearts and minds, but if the Marathon started in the nineties (or even eighties), we're not gonna win any medals by showing up now. No matter how cool our sneakers! :D
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 02:11:52 PM by viddaloo »
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ccgwebmaster

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2015, 08:44:42 AM »
Article is so loaded if I had a plastic bullshit detector button I'm afraid the batteries would run out while reading it. Climate Change didn't help create ISIS, our Mighty Ally did. And despite the intriguing headline and all, there wasn't even a mention of the OSM — the 'Oh Sh!t Moment' — when events in the Arctic or opposite — the Antarctic — make things so effin obvious it is no longer possible to deny even for mass media 'experts' or pundits.

Climate change does have a link to ISIS - that isn't to say it is possible to identify single causative factors - the world is far more complex and interlinked than that - but you see the fingerprint of climate change in many geopolitical situations these days. It's relevance is growing rapidly and largely invisibly as people pay attention to to the flames, not to the accumulation of fuel that led to them.

The same is true of resource depletion, the other great driving stress bearing down upon our world today. Climate is a resource of sorts too, or at least has direct bearing on key resources.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2015, 12:51:46 PM »
I fear I'm still not terribly optimistic Wili. Here I'm channeling Kevin Anderson in an endeavour to explain why:

http://econnexus.org/dave-nick-and-ed-pledge-to-save-the-planet/

Quote
We can't do [2°C] with low carbon supply. We can't make the changes quick enough. You have to do something with our demand for energy, and that is very, very unpopular amongst all of us, all of our colleagues, all the policy makers, so basically the whole world, all the high emitting parts of the world, which is only a small proportion, none of us like this at all, and that's why we don't really like the science.
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

wili

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2015, 01:43:00 PM »
The main problem I have with the piece is his reliance on the 'invisible hand of the market place' to straighten things up. Unless by this term he means a permanent and ever worsening market global market collapse of over 10% world GDP per year for the next 20 years or so, nothing the 'market place' will or won't do will save us on time. Might as well peg the hopes for the future on the tooth fairy.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Jim Hunt

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2015, 02:32:19 PM »
Kevin didn't seem very impressed by the "invisible hand" argument! In the question and answer session after his recent seminar here in Exeter he recommended "nationalisation of both [electricity] transmission and distribution":

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/02/an-open-letter-to-david-cameron-and-ed-davey/

Unfortunately I don't yet have permission to release my recording of those Q&As.
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

LRC1962

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Re: Embracing Darkness - Optimism for the 22nd Century
« Reply #89 on: March 05, 2015, 07:00:20 PM »
Just came across this quote which I think sums up a lot of our current situation.
Quote
I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority.
E. B. White
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second,  it is violently opposed; and Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
       - Arthur Schopenhauer