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pileus

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1050 on: May 31, 2017, 06:16:16 PM »
Here is American climate change denial and for the lack of a better phrase, utter bullshit, in full glory.  Brought to you by the state sponsored television network.  This is what millions of Americans consume each day.  Where does one start with all of these blatant lies?

Warning, reading this may make your head explode.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/05/ex-gop-sen-tom-coburn-up-to-75-percent-of-scientists-think-climate-change-is-a-hoax/amp/

Former Oklahoma Sen. Tom Coburn (R), a frequent denier of climate science, on Wednesday said that the Paris Climate Agreement was created by “emotional” liberals.

Following the news that President Donald Trump would likely pull out of the Paris agreement, Coburn told Fox Business host Stuart Varney that the accord was unfair to the United States.

“The studies right now would tell you that we’re not warming right now,” Coburn insisted.

“Really?” Varney replied. “What’s this, ‘Nine-nine percent of all the scientists [believe in man-made climate change]?'”

“If you go and poll, what does the actual data say? I don’t think you’ll see 99 percent,” Coburn said. “You may see 75-25. You may see 25-75. You don’t know that. Nobody knows because we have had this political mantra out there that say that if you doubt what we said, you’re a flat Earther.”

“You know, I went into the Congress in 1995 and they told me the same thing, the oceans are rising,” he continued. “Here we are some 22 years later, right? And what’s the difference? One millimeter? Two millimeters?”

“Is that it?” Varney wondered.

“I don’t know,” Coburn admitted. “But the fact is we have not seen a major encroachment. The ice storage in Antarctica is greater than it’s ever been. They had more ice this year in the Arctic than we’ve seen in 30 years. So, tell me where this is.”

According to Coburn, the Paris agreement was an “emotional and reactive” response that did not take into account “all the facts.”

Archimid

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1051 on: May 31, 2017, 06:33:54 PM »
Quote
“You know, I went into the Congress in 1995 and they told me the same thing, the oceans are rising,” he continued. “Here we are some 22 years later, right? And what’s the difference? One millimeter? Two millimeters?”

About 78 Millimeters from 1995 to present. The fool thinks is 1 or 2.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

oren

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1052 on: May 31, 2017, 06:41:52 PM »
The fool is no fool. The public consuming this shit is the fool.

TerryM

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1053 on: May 31, 2017, 06:45:43 PM »
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.


I remember Dick Chaney insisting that terrorists had crossed the then open Canadian border to participate in the 9/11 hijackings. When asked who, where and when, he just kept repeating his lie. It's easy to blame the voters for electing such an ass, but at some point those that suggested him as a candidate and those who vetted him for his position have to be held to some form of accountability.


It's not democracy when leaders blatantly lie even when the truth is so easily proven. Does a "news" program have any responsibility for allowing obvious lies to be broadcast?


Terry

rboyd

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1054 on: May 31, 2017, 07:31:14 PM »
The "news" programs became an arm of the entertainment business a long time ago. They also tend not to speak truth to power, especially during times of crisis. Politicians lie, just some lie less than others. Remember Nixon ("tricky dicky"), Lyndon Johnson with the imaginary Gulf of Tonkin incident, Reagan's lack of memory about illegally funding the Contras, Clinton and "I did not have sex with that woman", and of course GW and Iraqi WMD? The BBC dared to call out the Blair government over Iraq and got a swift and thorough beating for it to remind them of their proper role.

Once you assume such things, life becomes so much less aggravating.

Sigmetnow

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1055 on: May 31, 2017, 07:39:36 PM »
Elon Musk: Don't know which way Paris will go, but I've done all I can to advise directly to POTUS, through others in WH & via councils, that we remain
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/869970236669177856
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1056 on: May 31, 2017, 07:46:18 PM »
If Trump decides to pull out of the Paris accord it won't make much difference.  The way the agreement is written it takes four years for a country to actually exit.  The odds of the next US president being a stupid as Trump approach zero.

On a practical level, there's not much the Trump administration can do to slow the US movement to renewable energy.  Economics have taken over.  And Congress is unlikely to take any anti-wind/solar legislation.  Too many jobs have been created by renewables.  Plus voter sentiment has swung in favor of renewable energy.

Sigmetnow

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1057 on: May 31, 2017, 09:00:33 PM »
Elon Musk says that he will stop advising President Trump if US leaves Paris climate accord.
https://electrek.co/2017/05/31/elon-musk-stop-advising-president-trump-paris-agreement/

Electrek:  "While the agreement is not binding, the U.S. leaving would send a clear message that Trump’s administration has no interest in leading the sustainable energy revolution."


Edit: Here's CNBC's take:
Elon Musk threatens to leave White House advisory councils if Trump drops Paris accord
Quote
...
Musk, who also founded SpaceX, is on Trump's manufacturing jobs council, his strategic and policy forum, and his infrastructure council. Musk has defended his role advising Trump in the face of some criticism from anti-Trump activists, arguing that they should want his voice in the discussions to offer views that differ from those of the president's other advisors....
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/31/elon-musk-threatens-to-leave-white-house-councils-if-trump-drops-paris-accord.html
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 09:16:52 PM by Sigmetnow »
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crandles

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1058 on: May 31, 2017, 09:04:01 PM »
If Trump decides to pull out of the Paris accord it won't make much difference.  The way the agreement is written it takes four years for a country to actually exit.  The odds of the next US president being a stupid as Trump approach zero.

On a practical level, there's not much the Trump administration can do to slow the US movement to renewable energy.  Economics have taken over.  And Congress is unlikely to take any anti-wind/solar legislation.  Too many jobs have been created by renewables.  Plus voter sentiment has swung in favor of renewable energy.

4 years to exit Paris agreement? Well perhaps depends on how he goes about it. There is option of leaving UNFCCC which only takes a year. Or maybe declare it is a treaty and so it needs senate approval
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40108659

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1059 on: May 31, 2017, 09:21:13 PM »
I would not bet on the Senate taking the US out of the Paris accord.  The majority of right-wing nutcases are in the House, not the Senate.

Pulling out of the  United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change takes a year is a possibility.

But whatever Trump does is mostly symbolic.  And can be fixed after the next presidential election.

European leaders now understand that they are dealing with a clown.  They won't hold Trump's follies against the US long term.  As long as we put a responsible person in the White House next term.

Sigmetnow

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1060 on: June 01, 2017, 12:57:05 AM »
This may not surprise anyone here, but I find it interesting that so many tech, business and political outlets are posting stories about Elon Musk's threat to quit the (three) White house councils he belongs to, if the U.S. leaves the Paris Agreement.  (He'd previously said it was beneficial for him to be there, as a voice of reason against the anti-science administration.)

https://www.google.com/search?q=musk+leave+trump
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Csnavywx

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1061 on: June 01, 2017, 02:57:58 AM »
If Trump decides to pull out of the Paris accord it won't make much difference.  The way the agreement is written it takes four years for a country to actually exit. The odds of the next US president being a stupid as Trump approach zero.

On a practical level, there's not much the Trump administration can do to slow the US movement to renewable energy.  Economics have taken over.  And Congress is unlikely to take any anti-wind/solar legislation.  Too many jobs have been created by renewables.  Plus voter sentiment has swung in favor of renewable energy.

Ah Bob, you are the eternal optimist -- almost to a fault, my friend.

Csnavywx

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1062 on: June 01, 2017, 03:06:33 AM »
I would not bet on the Senate taking the US out of the Paris accord.  The majority of right-wing nutcases are in the House, not the Senate.

Pulling out of the  United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change takes a year is a possibility.

But whatever Trump does is mostly symbolic.  And can be fixed after the next presidential election.

European leaders now understand that they are dealing with a clown.  They won't hold Trump's follies against the US long term.  As long as we put a responsible person in the White House next term.

Don't bet on that. The whole reason the Accord was structured the way it was was to avoid having it ratified by the Senate because the Obama administration knew it wasn't going to get through. That might have been a fatal gamble, though. There are a few Democratic senators that will join Republicans in voting against it and their seats are up for re-election in vulnerable red states in 2018. From a political standpoint, it would be the ultimate deathtrap. If they vote for the Accord, they get ousted in 2018 and strengthen the R majority. If they don't, the Accord goes away.

Edit: If it does go through the Senate and it is voted down as a treaty -- then it's dead. There's no reviving it. An attempt to go through the courts to revive it will fail in that case as the Supreme Court will vote with domestic over international law in every case (and there is a long precedent for that).
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 03:23:19 AM by Csnavywx »

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1063 on: June 01, 2017, 03:49:17 AM »
How could it have been a fatal gamble if that was the only way to join the agreement?

Screw it.  Trump is going to make a mess as long as he is in the White House.  Just like Bush and Cheney created an enormous mess.  The next Democratic president will have to clean things up just like Obama had to do.

Trump may not last all that long.  It looks like Comey will testify in public next week and will report that Trump attempted to interfere with an ongoing federal investigation.  That may be enough to open the floodgates on him. 

If Pence manages to get through the collusion with Russia mess then he will be no better than Trump.  But at least Pence will not have a main goal of undoing everything Obama did out of spite.

I don't think there's much chance of Republicans holding the White House in 2020.  They've pissed in too many people's soup bowls.  And their main propaganda arm, Fox News, appears to be crumbling.

Three years from now there will be far fewer people who remember when the US had a vibrant middle class and more voters who have come of age after America's 'golden years'.  The youngers don't have the same racist, homophobic, misogynist attitudes as the older white guys who are the Republican's base.   

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1064 on: June 01, 2017, 03:51:28 AM »
Quote
Ah Bob, you are the eternal optimist -- almost to a fault, my friend.

There's a problem with being an optimist?  In my experience optimists are the people who get stuff done, as long as their optimism is tempered by reality.

Pessimists bitch and moan but do little.  After all, why bother when all will turn to shit?

sidd

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1065 on: June 01, 2017, 05:36:20 AM »
" After all, why bother when all will turn to shit?"

"It is not necessary to hope, in order to persevere."

Or, perhaps, Kafka : "There is hope,certainly. But not for us."

sidd

budmantis

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1066 on: June 01, 2017, 05:41:01 AM »
In the linked article, Elon Musk threatens to step down from Trump's advisory councils if Trump withdraws from the Paris climate agreement.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/31/news/elon-musk-paris-climate-deal-trump/index.html

In another linked article, the EU and China have agreed on a joint statement regarding the importance of the Paris climate deal.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40106281

BudM
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 05:48:25 AM by budmantis »

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1067 on: June 01, 2017, 05:58:54 AM »
The only large emitter country not to be party to the Paris accord at this point is Russia.

I am totally flabbergasted at  how the Republicans have climbed into bed with Putin and Russia.  What's a larger change in direction than 180°? 

Csnavywx

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1068 on: June 01, 2017, 08:46:26 AM »
Quote
Ah Bob, you are the eternal optimist -- almost to a fault, my friend.

There's a problem with being an optimist?  In my experience optimists are the people who get stuff done, as long as their optimism is tempered by reality.

Pessimists bitch and moan but do little.  After all, why bother when all will turn to shit?

I was pushing back on your notion of there being "next to zero" or "zero" chance of Trump or somebody like Trump being elected again. This is a statement of near-blind optimism, the same kind that got us into this mess in the first place. Anecdotally, I can remember lots of folks (including some of my friends on the left) during the Bush era saying it wouldn't get any worse than that. Optimism can cloud judgment and promote blindness to risk. If and only if, as you say, it is tempered by reality is it ultimately useful.

Csnavywx

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1069 on: June 01, 2017, 09:13:35 AM »
How could it have been a fatal gamble if that was the only way to join the agreement?

Screw it.  Trump is going to make a mess as long as he is in the White House.  Just like Bush and Cheney created an enormous mess.  The next Democratic president will have to clean things up just like Obama had to do.

Trump may not last all that long.  It looks like Comey will testify in public next week and will report that Trump attempted to interfere with an ongoing federal investigation.  That may be enough to open the floodgates on him. 

If Pence manages to get through the collusion with Russia mess then he will be no better than Trump.  But at least Pence will not have a main goal of undoing everything Obama did out of spite.

I don't think there's much chance of Republicans holding the White House in 2020.  They've pissed in too many people's soup bowls.  And their main propaganda arm, Fox News, appears to be crumbling.

Three years from now there will be far fewer people who remember when the US had a vibrant middle class and more voters who have come of age after America's 'golden years'.  The youngers don't have the same racist, homophobic, misogynist attitudes as the older white guys who are the Republican's base.

Fatal gamble because they assumed it would never go to the Senate. Yes, it was required to get it signed, but there's a steeper price for failure if that strategy ultimately fails. If it had been another Copenhagen at least the door would still be open. If it gets torpedoed like this now, the damage will be permanent. Who the hell will trust us after that? At the very least, it'll be that much harder to get another deal re-negotiated in the future.

It's harder to ratify treaties -- it requires 67 votes. That's an extremely steep climb, especially with red state Democratic senators like Manchin, Donnelly and Heitcamp.

After that scenario, in my opinion, the only real solution will have to be localized grassroots change organized on the city and state levels. I have more hope for that anyways as there tends to fewer layers between the politicians and their constituency at that level. Things tend to get done a bit faster than in large and clunky global-governance type structures.

As far as the demographic changes are concerned -- I could open up a whole new thread on that. I see it a bit differently. The collapse of the center is evident across both the US, Europe and most of the OECD world. It's worse in Europe where the center left has had its lunch eaten and the center right is starting to cave. Far left and far right populism are on the rise, especially amongst the youth. It's globalization vs localization and nowhere was that seen better than in the recent French election. Far left and far right are both skeptical of globalization and global governance-type structures. My chief worry there is that this developing counter-current is going to run against a large scale effort to work together on things like emissions controls. That's another tip in the scales for city and regional-scale emissions programs for me.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 09:27:46 AM by Csnavywx »

gerontocrat

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1070 on: June 01, 2017, 12:38:09 PM »
If Trump says "Nyet" to the Paris Agreement it could well have unintended consequences. Other countries such as China, India and the EU countries may well accelerate their development of the renewable energy industries and electrical vehicles. An opportunity lost by one is an opportunity gained by another.
And today the Guardian tells us that the EU and China have already started (but that will not include the UK - brexit is brexit).
- https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/31/china-eu-climate-lead-paris-agreement

In the USA it may well galvanise many States and Cities to redouble their efforts to maximise the economic opportunities that States led by denialists are turning their backs on. I would expect a state such as California to affirm to the UN their unqualified support for the Agreement.

Those States that seek to defy the policies of Trump have an ally from an unexpected place - The Freedom Caucus and Libertarian movements. They say that the Federal Government should stop telling the individual States what to do - State's' Rights. What is sauce for the goose (West Virginia - let there be pollution) is sauce for the gander (California - let there be a clean environment) .

To have a USA in the agreement but permanently trying to water it down and reduce its effectiveness could be the worst option.

ps: A USA with no seat at the table when the world discusses the future of the planet will be good for its soul. Chastisement through rejection, cold shoulder, dismissal, indifference.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 04:07:48 PM by gerontocrat »
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Archimid

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1071 on: June 01, 2017, 04:39:25 PM »
Don’t compare Trump’s Paris decision to Nicaragua’s; they’ve embraced renewable energy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/05/31/dont-compare-trumps-paris-decision-to-nicaraguas-theyve-embraced-renewable-energy/

Quote
Nicaraguan leaders said they declined to enter the agreement not because they didn’t want to abide by new emissions standards, but because those standards weren’t strict enough and didn’t require enough sacrifice from wealthier countries with larger economies
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Hefaistos

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1072 on: June 01, 2017, 04:48:45 PM »
The only large emitter country not to be party to the Paris accord at this point is Russia.

I am totally flabbergasted at  how the Republicans have climbed into bed with Putin and Russia.  What's a larger change in direction than 180°?

Russia ratified the agreement in April 2016. Or is it just Russian propaganda?

http://www.mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/2248604

rboyd

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1073 on: June 01, 2017, 05:54:52 PM »
Russia signed the agreement, but they have not ratified it yet. Two different steps. Their economy is very heavily dependent on fossil fuel energy and energy-intensive industries, plus they are taking the hit from sanctions.

Can we please stay away from the ridiculous "Putin and Trump in cahoots" meme? Some basic cooperation between nations where it makes sense is normal. Russia needs aid in transitioning to a renewable economy rather than sanctions. We need to look at the bigger picture, tackling climate change, rather than short term advantage.


TerryM

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1074 on: June 01, 2017, 07:07:26 PM »
Russia signed the agreement, but they have not ratified it yet. Two different steps. Their economy is very heavily dependent on fossil fuel energy and energy-intensive industries, plus they are taking the hit from sanctions.

Can we please stay away from the ridiculous "Putin and Trump in cahoots" meme? Some basic cooperation between nations where it makes sense is normal. Russia needs aid in transitioning to a renewable economy rather than sanctions. We need to look at the bigger picture, tackling climate change, rather than short term advantage.


In Spades!!


What would happen if we could placed a moratorium on drilling for additional gas?
Prices for existing gas would bounce making it less useful as a "transition fuel". High prices would assure little was lot in transit & gas fired plants would be upgraded for more efficient operation. Existing gas wells, coal mine gas, possibly even landfill gas would be coveted and burned rather than allowing it's catastrophic escape into the atmosphere.


Terry


Csnavywx

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1075 on: June 01, 2017, 09:23:55 PM »
Bloomberg says Trump is going live with the announcement shortly. He is indeed expected to withdraw.

Like mentioned earlier, HOW he does it is important.

gerontocrat

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1076 on: June 01, 2017, 09:41:35 PM »
Bloomberg says Trump is going live with the announcement shortly. He is indeed expected to withdraw.

Like mentioned earlier, HOW he does it is important.
He is doing it right now (8.40 pm British Summer Time)
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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Thomas Barlow

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1077 on: June 01, 2017, 10:03:46 PM »
Donald Trump just said he wants to get back into the Paris Climate Accord.
:o

Don't worry, he also said he would withdraw from Paris in 2019, and negotiate terms until then.
;D


America is committed to 2019, no matter what Trump says.
""The Paris Agreement entered into force on November 4, 2016 -- so this means the US would have to stay with it until November 2019.
After that, the rules mandate a one-year notice period, which would mean a withdrawal in late 2020 -- after the next presidential election on November 3, 2020.""
--- http://www.cnn.com/.../paris-climate-agreement-trump.../


« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 10:29:52 PM by Thomas Barlow »

Csnavywx

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1078 on: June 01, 2017, 10:36:00 PM »
Donald Trump just said he wants to get back into the Paris Climate Accord.
:o
Don't worry, he also said he would withdraw from Paris in 2019, and negotiate terms until then.
;D


America is committed to 2019, no matter what Trump says.
""The Paris Agreement entered into force on November 4, 2016 -- so this means the US would have to stay with it until November 2019.
After that, the rules mandate a one-year notice period, which would mean a withdrawal in late 2020 -- after the next presidential election on November 3, 2020.""
--- http://www.cnn.com/.../paris-climate-agreement-trump.../

Scenario 1: He uses the withdrawal mechanism in the Accord. That takes 4 years and can potentially be overturned by another president. Could be some hope there for a save.
Scenario 2: He pulls out of the UNFCCC. 1 year exit and more damaging. Technically recoverable as a new president could re-sign into the UNFCCC (which already had Senate approval) and re-sign the accord.
Scenario 3: He puts it to the Senate as a treaty. That may take some months of deliberation, but it is unlikely to be ratified. All decisions by the Senate on the Accord are final and supercede any provisions in the Accord with respect to withdrawal timelines. Legal contests that make it to the Supreme Court will result in domestic law taking precedence over international law. The damage in this scenario is far greater as it is essentially back to square one.

charles_oil

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1079 on: June 01, 2017, 10:38:23 PM »

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/01/politics/trump-paris-climate-decision/index.html gives his speech - Thomas' link above would not work.


 Sad day for global climate !

Tor Bejnar

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1080 on: June 02, 2017, 12:07:06 AM »
Am I allowed to apologize for the behavior of my nation state? (Or will you throw rotten eggs at me for being associated with it?)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1081 on: June 02, 2017, 12:07:24 AM »
Quote
Can we please stay away from the ridiculous "Putin and Trump in cahoots" meme?

You might want to pay some attention to how Russia inserted itself into the 2016 election and how much Trump is involved with Russia.  Just today...

Quote
The Trump administration is moving toward handing back to Russia two diplomatic compounds, near New York City and on Maryland’s Eastern Shore, that its officials were ejected from in late December as punishment for Moscow’s interference in the 2016 presidential election.

President Barack Obama said Dec. 29 that the compounds were being “used by Russian personnel for intelligence-related purposes” and gave Russia 24 hours to vacate them. Separately, Obama expelled from the United States what he said were 35 Russian “intelligence operatives.”

Washington Post

AbruptSLR

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1082 on: June 02, 2017, 12:36:10 AM »
Here is an image of just how selfish(/mentally ill) Trump is being w.r.t. the global community.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 10:50:47 AM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1083 on: June 02, 2017, 12:55:48 AM »
My take...




ghoti

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1084 on: June 02, 2017, 01:27:53 AM »
Also remember Nicaragua is out because they feel the accord is too lenient. They are working hard to go 100% renewable without signing.

Sigmetnow

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1085 on: June 02, 2017, 02:12:14 AM »
U.S. states thumbing their nose at Trump in the best way possible:

In response to US pulling out of Paris Agreement, US states step in to commit to protecting the environment and their citizens
Quote
Hot on the heels of Donald Trump’s decision to bow to fossil fuel industry pressure and pull out of the Paris Climate Agreement against the wishes of the American people, three US states have announced a coalition to continue implementing the goals of the Paris Agreement.

California Governor Jerry Brown, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, and Washington Governor Jay Inslee announced the creation of the group called the “United States Climate Alliance” and the three states, which together represent a quarter of US GDP and more than 20% of the nation’s population (but only about 10% of its carbon emissions), are inviting other states to join them.

The group’s goal is to reduce emissions by 26-28% from 2005 levels and to meet or exceed the targets of the federal Clean Power Plan, which Mr. Trump also recently reversed, drawing criticism and a vow from California and New York to continue pursuing it.  The formation of this group seems to be an early step in the states’ efforts to protect the environment and their economies, not to mention the health and safety of their constituants despite the federal government’s dereliction of duty.
...
“I am proud to stand with other governors as we make sure that the inaction in D.C. is met by an equal force of action from the states,” said Governor Inslee. “Today’s announcement by the president leaves the full responsibility of climate action on states and cities throughout our nation. While the president’s actions are a shameful rebuke to the work needed to protect our planet for our children and grandchildren, states have been and will continue to step up.”
...
https://electrek.co/2017/06/01/in-response-to-us-pulling-out-of-paris-agreement-us-states-step-in-to-commit-to-protecting-the-environment-and-their-citizens/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1086 on: June 02, 2017, 02:20:38 AM »
Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein used his first-ever tweet to slam Trump's climate decision:
"Today's decision is a setback for the environment and for the U.S.'s leadership position in the world. #ParisAgreement"
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/01/lloyd-blankfeins-first-ever-tweet-slams-trumps-climate-decision.html

And French President Emmanuel Macron tweeted the graphic attached below.
https://twitter.com/emmanuelmacron/status/870407981044834304
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1087 on: June 02, 2017, 03:43:25 AM »
“I don’t think this is going to diminish by one iota the commitment by the private sector in the US to do what makes sense from a business standpoint and from an environmental standpoint.”
Even Without Paris, Business Will Leave Trump Behind on Climate Change
https://www.wired.com/2017/06/even-without-paris-business-will-leave-trump-behind-climate-change/


The U.S. Is The Loser as Trump Dumps the Climate Accord
The exit will undermine America’s economic competitiveness, technological innovation, and global leadership. Not to mention the, um, planet.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-01/if-trump-dumps-the-climate-accord-the-u-s-is-the-lose
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1088 on: June 02, 2017, 04:19:39 AM »
Am I allowed to apologize for the behavior of my nation state? (Or will you throw rotten eggs at me for being associated with it?)
Apology accepted.
I hope everyone everywhere realizes that Americans under Trump are no more responsible for their government's actions than Canadian's were when under Harper's rule.
Democracy, at least as it is practiced in the Americas, has failed.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1089 on: June 02, 2017, 04:38:52 AM »
Stumbled, Terry.

I can't think of a single country that has had successful government after successful government throughout their entire history.


Juan C. García

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1090 on: June 02, 2017, 04:44:18 AM »
From "The Climate Reality Project":

Dear Friends,

As you know, today the White House announced that the United States would begin the process of leaving the Paris Agreement. Removing the United States from the Paris Agreement is a reckless and indefensible action. It undermines America’s standing in the world and threatens to damage humanity’s ability to solve the climate crisis in time. 

But disappointment is not despair.

Make no mistake: if President Trump won’t lead, the American people will.

Civic leaders, mayors, governors, CEOs, investors and the majority of the business community will take up this challenge. We are in the middle of a clean energy revolution that no single person or group can stop. President Trump’s decision is profoundly in conflict with what the majority of Americans want from our president; but no matter what he does, we will ensure that our inevitable transition to a clean energy economy continues. 

As proof, just look at how communities like Salt Lake City, Utah and Boulder, Colorado are committing to switch to 100 percent renewable electricity. Just last month, California set a new record for clean energy use in the state, and over the past several weeks and months, major corporations and businesses from around the world reaffirmed their commitment to clean energy, the Paris Agreement, and US leadership on climate. The momentum of clean energy and climate action only continues to build, and ignoring that reality is shortsighted and wrong.

Now it’s up to us to pick up where the White House is leaving off. It’s up to us to keep this progress going full steam ahead. If you’re in the US, commit to pushing your local council or mayor to embrace renewable electricity in your community. If you’re outside the US, commit to pressuring your leaders to fulfill your country’s Paris Agreement pledge and keep the process moving. 

My friends, it’s time to fight like our world depends on it. Because it does. And because together we will win.

Sincerely,

Al Gore
Founder and Chairman
The Climate Reality Project
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Pmt111500

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1091 on: June 02, 2017, 05:05:51 AM »
This mainly means that United States government wants to keep secret how much they pollute their own citicens and the planet. They want to drown the low-lying deltas and ports, Netherlands and Miami. Thus every trade an military deal with them should be renegotiated with them keeping this in mind. The countries most hurt by this irresponsible action should sue US companies in every possibility for damages for lost land and production. This would likely best be done in both international and National courts as US does falsely extend its jurisdiction outside its borders.

Bettet of course if the economical ties to US could be totally cut and their ambassadors evicted as is done for some rogue nations. Ambassadors should not be invited to the parties of sensible nations.

US cars are bad. Now many should start to write propaganda against US, you do not even have to lie anymore.

Pmt111500

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1092 on: June 02, 2017, 05:27:22 AM »
I clearly need a discussion forum which bans all writers having an IP connected to the US. This is not as simple to do as many of their rogue companies/enterprises have offices outside their borders. Their internet connection should be monitored like their own nation does already, and any posts by the citicens of US getting through should be marked as propaganda against planet.

I'm not asking Neven to do this, it could be useful to have connections to the internal resistance movement of US, but the risk of US government infiltrators is too large if any messages from US are let through. Here's hoping for strenght for the resistance in the insurgency against the government of US. You may use Chevy Volt since you do not have access to better cars. Please continue to promote and act towards the destruction of the companies tied to the current destructive government of US.

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1093 on: June 02, 2017, 05:43:47 AM »
Well, that certainly was some strange stuff...

Now back to reality.

After listening to interviews with several corporate leaders and state governors I'm feeling like Little Donnie has kicked the US into a higher gear when it comes to cutting GHG.  Sounds to me as if we're going to see a lot more effort to install renewable energy and reduce energy use.

Yet another of his stupid moves may be blowing up in his face.... 

Pmt111500

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1094 on: June 02, 2017, 06:01:02 AM »
It appears there are claims US is doing some things that could be in accord to the sensible policies for the planet. In the absence of official verificaton of thwse, from the highest levels of government, all these claims should be regarded as hear-say, thus untrustworthy without further validation. The sensible people of US, do not fall for your government propaganda. Verify, fact-check all these claims in real life for there are many who want to asure you don't have to and everything's ok.

(I'm off to write facts (not propaganda of course, oops) against US government.

For the younger generation, this has been a visit to rhe 1970s and soviet propaganda.

Bob Wallace

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1095 on: June 02, 2017, 06:10:33 AM »
It appears there are claims US is doing some things that could be in accord to the sensible policies for the planet. In the absence of official verificaton of thwse, from the highest levels of government, all these claims should be regarded as hear-say, thus untrustworthy without further validation. The sensible people of US, do not fall for your government propaganda. Verify, fact-check all these claims in real life for there are many who want to asure you don't have to and everything's ok.

(I'm off to write facts (not propaganda of course, oops) against US government.

For the younger generation, this has been a visit to rhe 1970s and soviet propaganda.

WTF?

Pmt111500

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1096 on: June 02, 2017, 06:22:02 AM »
It appears there are claims US is doing some things that could be in accord to the sensible policies for the planet. In the absence of official verificaton of thwse, from the highest levels of government, all these claims should be regarded as hear-say, thus untrustworthy without further validation. The sensible people of US, do not fall for your government propaganda. Verify, fact-check all these claims in real life for there are many who want to asure you don't have to and everything's ok.

(I'm off to write facts (not propaganda of course, oops) against US government.

For the younger generation, this has been a visit to rhe 1970s and soviet propaganda.

WTF?
The cold war was an interesting time. As US is now separating from international community wrt environmental policies, a new cold war wrt policies on enviroment could be an idea. Do not buy anything made in US, if possible. Their drones kill innocent civilians round the globe and their environmental policies are from the 19th century (exaggarating of course).
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 06:44:56 AM by Pmt111500 »

pileus

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1097 on: June 02, 2017, 07:40:14 AM »
It appears there are claims US is doing some things that could be in accord to the sensible policies for the planet. In the absence of official verificaton of thwse, from the highest levels of government, all these claims should be regarded as hear-say, thus untrustworthy without further validation. The sensible people of US, do not fall for your government propaganda. Verify, fact-check all these claims in real life for there are many who want to asure you don't have to and everything's ok.

(I'm off to write facts (not propaganda of course, oops) against US government.

For the younger generation, this has been a visit to rhe 1970s and soviet propaganda.

WTF?
The cold war was an interesting time. As US is now separating from international community wrt environmental policies, a new cold war wrt policies on enviroment could be an idea. Do not buy anything made in US, if possible. Their drones kill innocent civilians round the globe and their environmental policies are from the 19th century (exaggarating of course).

Are you feeling ok?

Pmt111500

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1098 on: June 02, 2017, 07:48:15 AM »

Are you feeling ok?
This is not negotiable. Of course I am. How are you? Since you hide your location, the regular pleasantries and automatic responses to inquiries of personal info should be enough.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 07:53:53 AM by Pmt111500 »

pileus

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Re: UN Climate Agreement - Paris 2015 and beyond
« Reply #1099 on: June 02, 2017, 09:24:32 AM »
Well, that certainly was some strange stuff...

Now back to reality.

After listening to interviews with several corporate leaders and state governors I'm feeling like Little Donnie has kicked the US into a higher gear when it comes to cutting GHG.  Sounds to me as if we're going to see a lot more effort to install renewable energy and reduce energy use.

Yet another of his stupid moves may be blowing up in his face....

It really does feel that way.  And it also seems to have given a face slap to the media to take climate change reporting more seriously and make if more of a central priority.  Some mainstream outlets such as the Washington Post and NYT (except for recently hiring Bret Stephens) have done a better job lately, and it should accelerate from this point.

One of the great ironies of this is that it's going to drive a further demarcation and separation between the federal government and states/municipalities, which are realizing that the federal govt is becoming a rogue actor and banana republic under Trump.  States and localities are going to be acting more in their own interests and in concert with the rest of the world wrt climate change, in opposition to the US federal govt.  Republicans love to play to the states rights paradigm, but on this they will likely attack states for resisting Trump.