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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #100 on: July 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM »
Color me highly doubtful. Not that I disbelieve Elon's intentions, but where is the business plan? Long-term financing? Where are the billions that will be invested upfront to pay for all this boring, infrastructure, stations etc., with very slow payback? I just hope he doesn't mean to do it through Tesla, as it might cause it to go bankrupt.

First the 'loop has to be demonstrated to work.  That is being done by other companies. 

Then the boring stuff has to be demonstrated.  That seems to be underway.

Once there's concrete proof of both 'loop and tunnel is when you do the business plan, long-term financing stuff.  It could well be that the first project might be outside the US in a country that is more adventurous than the US is becoming.  It's looking like the first above ground 'loop may be built in the Middle East.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #101 on: July 21, 2017, 01:22:14 AM »
NWS Podunk (a parody site satirizing a U.S. weather service office out in the boonies):

"Some nice man called us the other day and asked if he could dig a tunnel for a fast train that runs on magnets. We told him it sounded okay!"

https://twitter.com/nwspodunk/status/888156061240262656
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #102 on: July 21, 2017, 01:59:41 AM »
Does the US have a Department of the Underneath?

Who, what agency, would control tunneling 50 feet or more below the surface?  We do have stuff down that low and lower - gas, oil, water wells - but those are vertical drills and probably locally approved.

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #103 on: July 21, 2017, 11:15:59 AM »
AFAIK boring machines are designed to remove sedimentary sand & possibly clay, I'm unaware of anywhere in North America where you could go 900 miles in a straight line without running into large intrusions of igneous rock, or some other structure that would preclude using a boring machine.


Think of the Death Valley region. Underground rivers, underground lakes, underground magma pockets, the lowest elevation in the Americas and the highest mountain in the lower 48 states. No boring machine will ever work it's way from East to West through this region.


I mention Death Valley only because I have some knowledge of the geology there. Others who live away from sediment filled valleys, or are aware of the geology under their feet could tell similar stories of why a boring machine wouldn't be able to penetrate their particular region. These machines are mechanized sand hogs, you wont find them in hard rock mining sites, for very well understood reasons.


Pull straight east from Los Angeles and note the number of coastal mountain ranges you encounter. Look for hot springs, will a boring machine cut through the magma that's heating the water? Look for sites of old silver mines, in the day these were referred to as hard rock mines, they use dynamite to progress in those holes. Mountain ranges cut by deep valleys, and everything west of the San Andreas fault is headed north. Rail lines, roads and highways need adjustments to follow the movement. How do you adjust a straight tunnel when one end changes in elevation or direction with regard to the other?


Within portions of the Los Angeles basin a boring machine will be useful, just don't try to push as far as Riverside.
Terry


Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #104 on: July 21, 2017, 12:11:52 PM »
From WaPo:

Asked if it had given Musk verbal approval, a White House spokesman said, “We have had promising conversations to date, are committed to transformative infrastructure projects, and believe our greatest solutions have often come from the ingenuity and drive of the private sector.”
A Boring Co. spokesperson said: “We look forward to future conversations with the cities and states along this route and we expect to secure the formal approvals necessary to break ground later this year.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/local/trafficandcommuting/musk-says-he-has-verbal-approval-for-dc-to-new-york-hyperloop/2017/07/20/0754628e-6d62-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html

Per the article, most city government's heads are exploding. ;D  Elon Who?
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crandles

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #105 on: July 21, 2017, 01:47:45 PM »
"Imagine a straight route from SF to NYC that doesn't bother to go around the mountains or slow down to weave through them but just goes under at full speed."

I believe Musk has said the Hyperloop is most efficient up to about 900 miles.  More than that, flying is more efficient.

I fail to see why this would be true.  The 'loop would be faster than a commercial jet.  It would use far less energy per mile.  And there would be no weather disruptions.

eta:  Ah, supersonic airplanes.  Lots of energy required.  Might be like the Concorde, only for the champaign class.
Perhaps by flying Musk means suborbital rocket? Fly up 50km then there is no air resistance to speak of until you want it to slow down.

crandles

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #106 on: July 21, 2017, 01:50:12 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40677604
Elon Musk and the hyperbolic hyperloop 'announcement'

a spokesman for The Boring Company did say that it intends to break ground on the project this year.
...
We've been trying to track down whom exactly Mr Musk might have been talking to about this. I won’t keep you in suspense: we failed.
...
Suffice it to say, Mr Musk’s promise of “rapid” formal approval seems way, way off the mark. It takes a committee to move a lamppost in America, let alone a multi-tunnel transport ecosystem that would be the most ambitious infrastructure the US will have seen since it began building freeways way back in the 1930s.

TimSharrock

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #107 on: July 21, 2017, 02:05:43 PM »
AFAIK boring machines are designed to remove sedimentary sand & possibly clay, I'm unaware of anywhere in North America where you could go 900 miles in a straight line without running into large intrusions of igneous rock, or some other structure that would preclude using a boring machine.

Hard-rock tunnelling machines exit, eg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martina_(tunnel_boring_machine) , but they will, of course have limits on just how hard! Underground water is often an issue, but often manageable. Hitting magma might not be manageable.

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #108 on: July 21, 2017, 04:14:26 PM »
Wow! That is some machine.


Still it's only going through sedimentary material, "clay, claystone, sandstone & limestone. Neither the coastal mountains nor the mighty rocky's are based on such malleable materials. The article did mention something I'd skipped over, methane deposits. They've been pumping oil out of Southern California for a long time, but one little methane bubble could turn a boreing machine into rubble.


The Mole People were a sci fi meme in the early 50's, their boreing machines would claw through anything, including castle walls - Eldon is a wonder, but mole people lost their luster when I was still young.


Terry

Tor Bejnar

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2017, 04:37:15 PM »
Magma Chamber Surprisingly Close to Hawaii's Surface?
Lava source found within two miles of surface, research suggests.

Not many volcanic (magma) issues within a couple kilometers of the surface, except in some known hot spots.  I would avoid Yellowstone, but mostly because of hot water and toxic gasses, and I wouldn't want drilling to mess with its surface wonders.  I don't imagine methane ever being a serious issue (except in some Arctic environments), but avoiding old abandoned (unmapped) wells and tar pockets (in Los Angeles, for example) may be a challenge.

Except under mountains, I imagine a long distance tunnel would seldom be more than 50-100 meters from the surface.

Cutting through granite and other hard rock was a challenge in the 1850s, but isn't a challenge today.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

mitch

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #110 on: July 21, 2017, 06:21:23 PM »
You don't want to go down too deep with a tunnel.  Typical temperature gradient in the earth is about 30 deg C per km. Also, more issues develop with sidewall pressure in a big open space, so have to worry about collapse. They will stay in the near surface.

Andre Koelewijn

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #111 on: July 21, 2017, 06:48:26 PM »
Wow! That is some machine.

Still it's only going through sedimentary material, "clay, claystone, sandstone & limestone. Neither the coastal mountains nor the mighty rocky's are based on such malleable materials. The article did mention something I'd skipped over, methane deposits. They've been pumping oil out of Southern California for a long time, but one little methane bubble could turn a boreing machine into rubble.

There are basically two types of tunnel boring machines: for soft soils and for rocks. A quick source is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine - see sections 2.2 and 2.1, respectively.
The Gotthard base rail tunnels in the Swiss Alps have been made through very hard rock - with sometimes crushed salt deposits functioning as high pressure aquifers. Quite difficult work - but they managed. Under less complicated conditions, rock tunneling machines have been used in most continents.
Passing the San Andreas fault is certainly an issue, but otherwise there are no serious obstacles for boring Los Angeles - San Francisco. For efficiency, usually one machine is used for 10 - 25 km only (cf. the Channel Tunnel - boring from both ends). The hyperloop would likely consist of two tunnels (one in each direction) and probably a service tunnel in between - so that would be quite an investment in TBM equipment.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #112 on: July 21, 2017, 09:32:26 PM »
"Imagine a straight route from SF to NYC that doesn't bother to go around the mountains or slow down to weave through them but just goes under at full speed."

I believe Musk has said the Hyperloop is most efficient up to about 900 miles.  More than that, flying is more efficient.

I fail to see why this would be true.  The 'loop would be faster than a commercial jet.  It would use far less energy per mile.  And there would be no weather disruptions.

eta:  Ah, supersonic airplanes.  Lots of energy required.  Might be like the Concorde, only for the champaign class.
Perhaps by flying Musk means suborbital rocket? Fly up 50km then there is no air resistance to speak of until you want it to slow down.

Musk has mentioned that his "landable and reusable rocket" technology could be used to travel anywhere on earth in a few minutes.  But yes, the cost would be prohibitive for most.

Here is his explanation of the 900-mile hyperloop limit:
The Hyperloop (or something similar) is, in my opinion, the right solution for the specific case of high traffic city pairs that are less than about 1500 km or 900 miles apart. Around that inflection point, I suspect that supersonic air travel ends up being faster and cheaper. With a high enough altitude and the right geometry, the sonic boom noise on the ground would be no louder than current airliners, so that isn’t a showstopper. Also, a quiet supersonic plane immediately solves every long distance city pair without the need for a vast new worldwide infrastructure.

However, for a sub several hundred mile journey, having a supersonic plane is rather pointless, as you would spend almost all your time slowly ascending and descending and very little time at cruise speed. In order to go fast, you need to be at high altitude where the air density drops exponentially, as air at sea level becomes as thick as molasses (not literally, but you get the picture) as you approach sonic velocity.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/hyperloop

Here is his Hyperloop paper:  https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/hyperloop_alpha3.pdf
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #113 on: July 21, 2017, 09:40:36 PM »
For comparison, here's some info on today's airliners speed:

Wikipedia: "Typical cruising airspeed for a long-distance commercial passenger aircraft is 475–500 knots (878–926 km/h; 546–575 mph)."

Quora:
"Airliners generally cruise between about Mach 0.8 and Mach 0.9, which at cruising altitudes of 30,000 to 40,000 feet, is around 450 to 500 knots (or about 500 to 600 MPH). No airliner other than the Concorde is capable of supersonic flight.

Airliners can only fly a very narrow range of speeds at cruise flight (the so-called "coffin corner").  The higher you fly, the more narrow the margin.  At the bottom end is stall speed, which increases with decreasing air pressure (increasing altitude).  At the top end is maximum Mach speed, which decreases with increasing altitude.  At around 40,000 feet of altitude, this speed range may be only a dozen knots or so.  So these aircraft do not have a very wide range of speeds to select from.

Aircraft normally do not fly a faster speed to make up for delays.  The airspeed of each flight is typically chosen in advance by the airline (in the form of the cost index or CI), and it depends on the profitability of the flight.  A faster flight burns more fuel but makes the plane available for more paying passengers in a day, so the cost of fuel and the price of an airline ticket determine what speed is the most economical.  The #1 factor in making up for lost time is tailwinds, which give the aircraft a "free" speed bonus that doesn't affect the coffin corner. (This is because the coffin corner speeds are airspeeds, relative to the surrounding air, but a tailwind increases only groundspeed.)

Most mid- and large-body airliners typically fly the same speeds.  It's not that the airline is trying to normalize travel speeds; it's that a 747 and a 737 have similar performance capabilities at cruising altitude.  They only majorly differ on passenger capacity and range."
https://www.quora.com/At-what-speed-do-airliners-generally-travel-Do-they-typically-fly-at-or-near-their-top-speed-Are-any-capable-of-mach-1
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2017, 10:23:03 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40677604
Elon Musk and the hyperbolic hyperloop 'announcement'

a spokesman for The Boring Company did say that it intends to break ground on the project this year.
...
We've been trying to track down whom exactly Mr Musk might have been talking to about this. I won’t keep you in suspense: we failed.
...
Suffice it to say, Mr Musk’s promise of “rapid” formal approval seems way, way off the mark. It takes a committee to move a lamppost in America, let alone a multi-tunnel transport ecosystem that would be the most ambitious infrastructure the US will have seen since it began building freeways way back in the 1930s.



Musk has had positive discussions with the mayor of Los Angeles, and does have permits for digging near SpaceX in Hawthorne, California.
https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/18/elon-musk-suggests-l-a-mayor-open-to-boring-co-tunnel-network/

http://insideevs.com/boring-company-tunneling-permits/

Musk tweeted:  @ejohnson99 City of Chicago already approached us about doing a high speed tunnel from O'Hare to downtown. They've been great.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888137602108448771

And: @curiousworlds For sure. First set of tunnels are to alleviate greater LA urban congestion. Will start NY-DC in parallel. Then prob LA-SF and a TX loop.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888059982586839041

And: @libbycwatson Verbal approval was at Federal level. Still a lot of work before formal, written approval, but this opens door for state & city discussions.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888365784153694208


Hyperlooping by tunnel, rather than on the surface, means even most “lampposts” won’t need to be moved. :)  Tunnel below infrastructure, without needing to condemn land above the route.

Musk tweeted: City center to city center in each case, with up to a dozen or more entry/exit elevators in each city
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888053729919877120

If you’ll recall the Boring Company concept video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u5V_VzRrSBI
You’ll see the entrance/exit envisioned is indeed a simple elevator (the hyperloop would also require an airlock).  Meaning hyperloop “stations” might only take up about as much surface area as a bus stop or taxi stand.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2017, 11:10:16 PM »
I wonder if they will install "siding" air-lock stations and keep the main tube free for express pods?

If one gets on at the furthest station there should be  'direct to downtown' pod option and perhaps one or more options that stop only at a few stations.  Twelve stops to get downtown would slow things up.

It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out.  Longer routes such as NYC to DC and SF to LA are the most interesting to me.  That's where we can start cutting down on air travel.  The "Chicago" system would just deal with surface traffic (which could be a very good thing, but different).

If we had SF to LA and followed that up with LA to Dallas and then Dallas to NYC we would have the beginning of a coast to coast hub system that would allow travel to main destinations in the US in four hours or less.  Why would anyone pay more to fly?

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #116 on: July 21, 2017, 11:44:35 PM »
"If one gets on at the furthest station there should be  'direct to downtown' pod option and perhaps one or more options that stop only at a few stations.  Twelve stops to get downtown would slow things up."

I've heard several times over the years that individual hyperloop pods would be able to go directly to their destination, with no stops.  I imagine that as you request a pod, or, when you enter one, you give your destination... and computers time your entry into the tunnel against other pods, so your pod does not have to stop.  Particularly in town, individual pods could be sped up or slowed down slightly to adjust the traffic flow.  They don't have to be like connected cars on a train, all going the same speed.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #117 on: July 22, 2017, 07:29:51 AM »
Except with a short run and a very fast speed there would be no way to move from the furthest station at full speed.  Other pods would be stopped or slowed and on the track.  On rail systems the 'local' moves to a siding to let the 'express' highball on through.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #118 on: July 22, 2017, 03:24:54 PM »
Except with a short run and a very fast speed there would be no way to move from the furthest station at full speed.  Other pods would be stopped or slowed and on the track.  On rail systems the 'local' moves to a siding to let the 'express' highball on through.

On-ramps and off-ramps. :)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u5V_VzRrSBI
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #119 on: July 22, 2017, 05:03:13 PM »
On and off ramps are basically sidings.  The approaches have to be long enough for pods/sleds to exit and merge at full speed.

I'm having trouble believing single car sleds are going to be a big deal.  We need pods moving at very high speeds and charging small money in order to lure people off roads.  Really fast subways. 

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #120 on: July 22, 2017, 05:41:30 PM »
On and off ramps are basically sidings.  The approaches have to be long enough for pods/sleds to exit and merge at full speed.

I'm having trouble believing single car sleds are going to be a big deal.  We need pods moving at very high speeds and charging small money in order to lure people off roads.  Really fast subways.

I refer to the Boring Co. sleds concept video simply to show an existing illustration of "elevators" and merging traffic. :)

As you suggested, within city limits you might have a separate "city exits" hyperloop tube section that joins, at the north and south ends, with the "through traffic" tube.  Well, at least four tunnels in city areas, then:  local, and through traffic, for northbound traffic; the same for southbound. I wonder if a single city elevator would have ramps to serve both directions?  That would make it easier to get empty pods to stations that need them....
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #121 on: July 22, 2017, 06:16:05 PM »
Elon would love to have a freight hyperloop between the Nevada Gigafactory and the car factory in Hawthorne, California. 
My guess is, tunnels bored quickly using lasers (or, a workable Star Trek Transporter!) would happen first. ;D

Elon Musk says Hyperloop route up to Tesla Gigafactory 1 would be ‘great’ to curb ‘gigantic’ logistic cost
https://electrek.co/2017/07/22/elon-musk-hyperloop-route-tesla-gigafactory-1/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #122 on: July 22, 2017, 07:49:25 PM »
A Hyperloop design subway system interests me.  Pods, so far, are small and don't hold a lot of passengers.  I've seen numbers from just under 30 to about 50.  That suggests that we could have more point to point trips.  No need to keep the cars full by stopping at every  station like trains/subways do.  Get on - get off.



Take the places where a large number of people commute from and build a system that gets them off the road.  That frees up roads all along their route. 

Look at the Ontario to LA route.  Don't stop the Ontario pods in Pomona and West Corvina.  Run dedicated 'express' pods from Pomona or West Corvina to LA as needed.  They can share the Ontario/LA tube.

If you're going to be on the pod for only a few minutes then there should be little need for seats (special needs seats only).  Open up the side of the pod.  Have passengers file in parallel rows, ride in their rows, and file off.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #123 on: July 23, 2017, 12:04:18 AM »
Los Angeles will have a subterranean version of the Basingstoke Roundabouts! ;D
Good thing we can leave the navigation to a computer. 8)
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2017, 12:22:40 AM »
The Bangkok Skytrain is designed so that the routes run from one extreme, through the center, and to another extreme.  The route intersect at a central location in BKK.

For LA that might mean a tube that ran from Santa Ana to Simi Valley with an 'all on/all off' under downtown LA.

At the end of each route all that would be needed is a simple shunt to the tube running the opposite direction.

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2017, 12:59:50 AM »
Wow! That is some machine.

Still it's only going through sedimentary material, "clay, claystone, sandstone & limestone. Neither the coastal mountains nor the mighty rocky's are based on such malleable materials. The article did mention something I'd skipped over, methane deposits. They've been pumping oil out of Southern California for a long time, but one little methane bubble could turn a boreing machine into rubble.

There are basically two types of tunnel boring machines: for soft soils and for rocks. A quick source is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine - see sections 2.2 and 2.1, respectively.
The Gotthard base rail tunnels in the Swiss Alps have been made through very hard rock - with sometimes crushed salt deposits functioning as high pressure aquifers. Quite difficult work - but they managed. Under less complicated conditions, rock tunneling machines have been used in most continents.
Passing the San Andreas fault is certainly an issue, but otherwise there are no serious obstacles for boring Los Angeles - San Francisco. For efficiency, usually one machine is used for 10 - 25 km only (cf. the Channel Tunnel - boring from both ends). The hyperloop would likely consist of two tunnels (one in each direction) and probably a service tunnel in between - so that would be quite an investment in TBM equipment.


Thanks for your, and others wake up call(s).


After decades in Nevada I should have at least remembered the boring machine that was carving away at our infamous "Nuclear Suppository", as one of our brighter Senators had dubbed the Yucca Mountain Site.


Hardrock tunneling equipment certainly does exist, (my bad), but I hope you will agree that it's outrageously expensive, and that progress is measured in kilometers/year.


The viability of going from Los Angeles at sea level, to Las Vegas, at 2,000 ft requires tunneling under Cajon Summit at 4,000 ft., except that Cajon pass follows the path of St. Andreas's famous fault. North of there is Mount Baldy (above the tree line), and to the south Mount Arrowhead and Big Bear Mountain with their ski resorts and high altitude training camps.


Musk would either travel for 100 miles deep underground, or stay close to the surface and have such a roller coaster ride that pealing passengers off the ceiling would be a problem at speed. The trains creeping up and down Cajon do so at less than 30 MPH, and maintain a grade of less than 3% only by zig-zagging up the face of the cliffs. Zigging and zagging are not things that the Hyperloop is designed for, but it is the traditional way to scale mountains.


Wide sweeping heavily banked turns are certainly doable, but how does one adjust to up and down movements at speed? Pilots in G-Suits with barf bags, strapped tightly to their seats, have learned to adjust, but passengers might object to the 0 G sections of the ride.


Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2017, 03:22:24 AM »
Wide sweeping heavily banked turns are certainly doable, but how does one adjust to up and down movements at speed?

Wide sweeping up and down movements.

Or, slow down to a couple hundred miles per hour through the mountains.  The real mountainous part of the Sierras, on a route from SF to NYC is about 50 miles. 

Or one drops south to LA and then east.

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #127 on: July 23, 2017, 12:18:34 PM »
Wide sweeping heavily banked turns are certainly doable, but how does one adjust to up and down movements at speed?

Wide sweeping up and down movements.

Or, slow down to a couple hundred miles per hour through the mountains.  The real mountainous part of the Sierras, on a route from SF to NYC is about 50 miles. 

Or one drops south to LA and then east.


That's the route I was referring to. When that tunnel is completed you'll be dead, I'll be dead, and Musk's life will be a footnote in history books.


Remember when the Europeans taught the poor benighted Japanese how to build proper brick edifices, by the time the second earthquake struck they either abandoned them, or carried on at a terrible cost to avoid losing face. There's a reason Californians haven't been world leaders in subway construction, and it's not because holes are hard to dig.


Terry

Andre Koelewijn

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2017, 01:21:46 PM »
The BART in and around San Francisco has quite a part underground, surviving the earthquakes in the past decades.

Employing several tunnel boring machines at the same time could solve the problem of slow progress per machine, given the large distance that needs to be covered. So the initial investment would be huge - like it is for the Gigafactory. That does not mean it cannot be done or that it cannot be worth the investment - although I really don't know if a LA - San Francisco hyperloop can ever make a profit.

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2017, 02:03:03 PM »
The BART in and around San Francisco has quite a part underground, surviving the earthquakes in the past decades.

Employing several tunnel boring machines at the same time could solve the problem of slow progress per machine, given the large distance that needs to be covered. So the initial investment would be huge - like it is for the Gigafactory. That does not mean it cannot be done or that it cannot be worth the investment - although I really don't know if a LA - San Francisco hyperloop can ever make a profit.
They've also run some subways under LA recently, haven't seen how they'll react to a real quake yet.

I can imagine LA to San Francisco being attempted, it's the West to East routes I have trouble envisioning.


I lived in So. Cal. & Las Vegas for decades & have a brother on Big Bear Mountain. I've driven the area many hundreds of times, before and after I-15 was finally pushed through Cajon Pass. It is a very difficult region cut by deep valleys and towering peaks.


California crashed into the mainland millions of years ago and crushed things together like a squashed aluminum can, then it began to bounce back, stretching and deforming everything. We've a mountain range just outside Las Vegas that was turned upside down, and Sunrise mountain to the east was toppled on it's side, strange seeing strata pointing straight up.
Things are more chaotic heading west to the foothills near Riverside. Strata pointing in all directions, hot springs bubbling from the strangest places, and reefs where magma has spilled out of miles long crevasses.


LA to San Francisco might be possible. LA, headed east beyond Riverside will never be attempted, underground.


Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2017, 03:45:26 PM »
Wide sweeping heavily banked turns are certainly doable, but how does one adjust to up and down movements at speed?

Wide sweeping up and down movements.

Or, slow down to a couple hundred miles per hour through the mountains.  The real mountainous part of the Sierras, on a route from SF to NYC is about 50 miles. 

Or one drops south to LA and then east.


That's the route I was referring to. When that tunnel is completed you'll be dead, I'll be dead, and Musk's life will be a footnote in history books.


Remember when the Europeans taught the poor benighted Japanese how to build proper brick edifices, by the time the second earthquake struck they either abandoned them, or carried on at a terrible cost to avoid losing face. There's a reason Californians haven't been world leaders in subway construction, and it's not because holes are hard to dig.


Terry

From Musk's Hyperloop paper:

For aerodynamic efficiency, the speed of a capsule in the Hyperloop is typically:

• 300 mph (480 kph) where local geography necessitates a tube bend radii < 1.0 mile (1.6 km)
• 760 mph (1,220 kph) where local geography allows a tube bend > 3.0 miles (4.8 km) or where local geography permits a straight tube.

These bend radii have been calculated so that the passenger does not experience inertial accelerations that exceed 0.5g. This is deemed the maximum inertial acceleration that can be comfortably sustained by humans for short periods. To further reduce the inertial acceleration experienced by passengers, the capsule and/or tube will incorporate a mechanism that will allow a degree of ‘banking’.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2017, 03:55:51 PM »
Here's his originally-proposed San Francisco Bay route (mostly above ground, using highway right-of-way).  Turns are engineered to restrict passenger G-forces to no more than 0.5G.

Visualization - The preliminary route is shown in yellow. Bend radii are shown in red.

Route - Follows I-580 to minimize land/right of way purchase costs. Deviation from I-580 West of Dublin in order to develop straight sections.

http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2017, 04:57:05 PM »
That's the route I was referring to. When that tunnel is completed you'll be dead, I'll be dead, and Musk's life will be a footnote in history books.

It's highly unlikely I'll still be alive in 2050 and essentially impossible I'll be alive in 2100.  But I'm still interested in keeping people who will be alive then from suffering from extreme climate change.

Musk could well be on his way to being a major topic in history books.  He may take a position with Franklin, Edison, and Bell as one of America's great inventors.  (Although I'd call Musk more of an innovator than inventor.)

There's a reason Californians haven't been world leaders in subway construction, and it's not because holes are hard to dig.

The reason is that California cities, unlike older cities, were designed for cars.  But now that we are clogging up our roads California is building subways.  LA has a subway system.  SF has BART which runs mostly underground, including under the San Francisco Bay.  The underground stations for SF and LA high speed rail are now under construction.

Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2017, 05:11:07 PM »

LA to San Francisco might be possible. LA, headed east beyond Riverside will never be attempted, underground.


Wiki tells us -

"The Gotthard Base Tunnel (GBT; German: Gotthard-Basistunnel, Italian: Galleria di base del San Gottardo, Romansh: Tunnel da basa dal Son Gottard) is a railway tunnel through the Alps in Switzerland. It opened on 1 June 2016, and full service began on 11 December 2016.[5][6] With a route length of 57.09 km (35.5 mi),[4] it is the world's longest and deepest traffic tunnel[7][8][9] and the first flat, low-level route through the Alps."

It took 17 years to dig this tunnel.  But it shouldn't take anything like that amount of time to dig a "50 mile" tunnel under the Sierras or other mountain range.  The Gotthard is an immensely wide tunnel.  It has room for two full sized trains running side by side plus walkways on both sides.  It's almost 20 feet high.

Part of Musk's approach is to dig much smaller tunnels (nine feet in diameter, IIRC).  Smaller means quicker. 

Getting under the Grapevine between LA and the Central Valley would require something like a 20 mile tunnel. 

A LA to Dallas route might require no appreciable tunneling.  It's been awhile since I've driven Interstate 10 east from LA (and I20 on to Dallas).  I don't recall crossing any mountain ranges, certainly nothing like the Sierras east of SF.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2017, 05:40:11 PM »
“We have no idea what we’re doing—I want to be clear about that.”
- Elon Musk, re tunneling

Don't forget: before Musk came along, there was no such thing as reusable orbital-class rockets... or modern high-volume luxury EVs.  The future of tunneling will probably look like nothing from the past -- or even the present.  His close friends made him watch a 20 minute video of rockets blowing up, and journalist after journalist said of Tesla, "You know you are going to fail, right?"

Just wait. :)
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2017, 07:21:52 PM »
I wish Tesla would speed up the battery powered pickup.  Not because I want to buy one, but because I would like to see the "Americans buy pickups and there ain't no battery powered pick 'em ups" talking point punctured. 

We might get a first look at the Tesla long distance freight truck next month.  Next month!

I am so looking forward to seeing how they purpose to deal with recharging.  Rapid recharge or battery swapping?  (I'm leaning toward rapid recharge.)

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2017, 09:32:29 PM »
"(I'm leaning toward rapid recharge.)"

Me, too.  Although Musk has teased that a 350 kW charger is a "children's toy" compared to what he has in the works, there's also the possibility that the semi-truck has several Model-S-sized battery packs, and you just plug them all in, using separate plugs (into a special battery-fed charger, so as not to tax the grid).

The semi uses Model 3 motors, so using battery packs similar to existing Tesla packs might also make (manufacturing) sense.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2017, 09:37:47 PM »
"(I'm leaning toward rapid recharge.)"

Me, too.  Although Musk has teased that a 350 kW charger is a "children's toy" compared to what he has in the works, there's also the possibility that the semi-truck has several Model-S-sized battery packs, and you just plug them all in, using separate plugs (into a special battery-fed charger, so as not to tax the grid).

The semi uses Model 3 motors, so using battery packs similar to existing Tesla packs might also make (manufacturing) sense.

Tesla already has "The Snake", a robotic charge connector.  And liquid cooled charging cables. 

I can see Tesla introducing an automatic charging station for their big trucks.  And industrial sized arm that plugs and unplugs itself without human involvement. 

They're going to need something like that for autonomous trucking.  Or hire a Gomer for every truck charging station.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #138 on: July 23, 2017, 10:59:31 PM »
"(I'm leaning toward rapid recharge.)"

Me, too.  Although Musk has teased that a 350 kW charger is a "children's toy" compared to what he has in the works, there's also the possibility that the semi-truck has several Model-S-sized battery packs, and you just plug them all in, using separate plugs (into a special battery-fed charger, so as not to tax the grid).

The semi uses Model 3 motors, so using battery packs similar to existing Tesla packs might also make (manufacturing) sense.

Tesla already has "The Snake", a robotic charge connector.  And liquid cooled charging cables. 

I can see Tesla introducing an automatic charging station for their big trucks.  And industrial sized arm that plugs and unplugs itself without human involvement. 

They're going to need something like that for autonomous trucking.  Or hire a Gomer for every truck charging station.


Tesla recently filed a patent for an under-the-vehicle, high-power charging system, which could be automated....

A recently released patent application gives a glimpse at a potential solution that Tesla could implement for both high speed charging and automated charging.
https://electrek.co/2017/04/22/tesla-patent-automate-charging/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2017, 11:05:57 PM »
I've just upped my odds in favor of rapid charging for large trucks (tractors).  Coming in from the bottom means the ability to use some very high capacity connections and aggressive cooling.

They could extend the external cooling into the battery pack and allow for faster charging.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #140 on: July 26, 2017, 03:44:57 PM »
July 26, 2017

We did the Math
In defense of the East Coast hyperloop
...
A functioning hyperloop would cannibalize air travel. It would also be a nearly ideal way to move cargo, greatly reducing the burden on the region’s highways and rails and providing new meaning to just-in-time shipping. Because aviation and shipping are projected to be the fastest-growing sources of new carbon emissions worldwide in the coming decades, the hyperloop — which could be operated entirely on renewable energy — is exactly the kind of technology that’s needed at exactly the right time.
...
Put in proper context, the hyperloop actually represents an incredible bargain. Just the proposed transit and airport improvements needed to keep New York City functioning in the coming decades would cost more than Musk’s entire [NY to DC] project. That includes renovations to LaGuardia Airport ($4 billion), other regional airport improvements ($6.5 billion), the rest of the Second Avenue Subway line ($17 billion), improved access at Grand Central Station ($10 billion), a new Penn Station ($1.6 billion), a revamped bus station on the city’s west side ($10 billion), and repairs to the Hudson River tunnels damaged in Hurricane Sandy ($23.9 billion).
...
https://grist.org/article/in-defense-of-the-east-coast-hyperloop-elon-musk/amp/

And here's the Wait But Why article from 2015:
https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/hyperloop.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #141 on: August 02, 2017, 06:32:03 PM »
Hyperloop One reaches new top speed of 192 mph in test with actual pod in vacuum tube
They achieved the new top speed on just 300 meters of propulsion ramp, which is impressive, and they increased the speed by 2.7x over last month’s first test.
...
They also achieved depressurization in the tube equivalent of air at 200,000 feet above sea level.

The company disclosed that “all components of the system were successfully tested, including the highly efficient electric motor, advanced controls and power electronics, custom magnetic levitation and guidance, pod suspension and vacuum system.”
https://electrek.co/2017/08/02/hyperloop-one-top-speed-test/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #142 on: August 02, 2017, 07:40:44 PM »
Hyperloop One reaches new top speed of 192 mph in test with actual pod in vacuum tube
They achieved the new top speed on just 300 meters of propulsion ramp, which is impressive, and they increased the speed by 2.7x over last month’s first test.
...
They also achieved depressurization in the tube equivalent of air at 200,000 feet above sea level.

The company disclosed that “all components of the system were successfully tested, including the highly efficient electric motor, advanced controls and power electronics, custom magnetic levitation and guidance, pod suspension and vacuum system.”
https://electrek.co/2017/08/02/hyperloop-one-top-speed-test/

OK, now let's get that tube length increased enough to really fire up the baby.  Get the speed over 500 mph and we can start doing realistic cost estimates.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #143 on: August 04, 2017, 09:07:29 PM »
When the future isn't approaching quite fast enough for you.  Or, when Los Angeles traffic is so bad, you are forced to invent a fifth mode of transportation -- and build it yourself.

Elon Musk Inspired an Industry of Hyperloop Startups. Now He’s Building His Own
A person close to the billionaire says he plans to dig tunnels and build transportation infrastructure
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-04/elon-musk-inspired-an-industry-of-hyperloop-startups-now-he-s-building-his-own
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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #144 on: August 05, 2017, 09:04:54 AM »
Tesla adopted a strategy of building EVs for deep pocket folks and used those sales to create a company and brand name that is allowing them to build a long range EV that will be affordable for tens of millions.

I wonder if the Borning Company will build one, or a few, rapid tunnels for deeper pocket people to dodge traffic congestion and use the tunneling technology that develops to create very rapid public transportation. 

I wonder if SpaceX is taking somewhat the same path.  Do government work hauling supplies to the space station and when they've been able to bring the price down start doing a lot of budget commercial lifts.

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #145 on: August 05, 2017, 11:04:46 AM »
I believe that the hyperloop has a too high investment cost to be limited to the deeper pocket people. I guess it will be like in airports with first class and second class entries and exits. The hyperloop will have the advantage that vehicle are much smaller than an airplane or a train, so you could have exclusive, first class and second class vehicles.
Maybe the test phase will be limited to deeper pocket people, but it means that they would support a higher risk of being stucked up in case of technical problem.

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #146 on: August 05, 2017, 12:38:28 PM »
I wonder if the Borning Company will build one, or a few, rapid tunnels for deeper pocket people to dodge traffic congestion and use the tunneling technology that develops to create very rapid public transportation. 

I wonder if SpaceX is taking somewhat the same path.  Do government work hauling supplies to the space station and when they've been able to bring the price down start doing a lot of budget commercial lifts.

Agree with etienne re "one, or a few, rapid tunnels for deeper pocket people", you use the tunnel/tube for both 1st class pods and second class pods.

I wondered if boring co is more like when there is a goldrush, you don't make money looking for gold, you make money by selling shovels (or doing transport).


SpaceX is certainly aiming to bring down price to gain volume which brings down price.....