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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #400 on: March 11, 2017, 04:13:06 PM »
Storage systems have become so affordable and reliable that the commission said utilities should be deploying them as part of their "normal course of business."

New York PSC directs utilities to deploy 2 or more grid-scale storage projects
...According to the order, by the end of next year each individual utility must have energy storage projects "deployed and operating at no fewer than two separate distribution substations or feeders.” Additionally, the projects should address at least two grid functions, such as boosting generating capacity of a substation or reducing peak load when demand is highest.

Additionally, the order requires that utilities push the development of distributed energy resources, and directs utilities to do more to create online portals to provide information to help DER developers. Those improvements must include advances to hosting capacity maps and similar information. ...
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/new-york-psc-directs-utilities-to-deploy-2-or-more-grid-scale-storage-proje/437846/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #401 on: March 12, 2017, 12:51:43 AM »
More on the Tesla/ South Australia storage offer.  A Twitter negotiation:

Elon Musk: @mcannonbrookes Tesla will get the system installed and working 100 days from contract signature or it is free. That serious enough for you?

Mike Cannon-Brooks: @elonmusk legend! ☀️ You’re on mate. Give me 7 days to try sort out politics & funding. DM me a quote for approx 100MW cost - mates rates!

Elon Musk: @mcannonbrookes $250/kWh at the pack level for 100MWh+ systems. Tesla is moving to fixed and open pricing and terms for all products.

Shails: @elonmusk is this global price?

Elon Musk: @shails Yes, but shipping, taxes/tariffs and installation labor vary by country, as those costs are beyond our control

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/840032197637685249
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #402 on: March 12, 2017, 07:34:35 PM »
The Great Australia/Tesla Energy Story continues:

Previously: Government party treasurer lovingly waves a lump of coal ("We're not afraid of it!") during parliament session, as record heat and wildfires cause power blackouts.

Aussie entrepreneur Mike Cannon-Brookes tweets Elon Musk, asking if he's serious about Tesla Energy's newly-announced ability to install 100MWh of battery storage in 100 days.

Musk:  @mcannonbrookes Tesla will get the system installed and working 100 days from contract signature or it is free. That serious enough for you?

Mike Cannon-Brookes:  @elonmusk legend! ☀️ You’re on mate. Give me 7 days to try sort out politics & funding....


The latest:
Musk: @mcannonbrookes Just spoke with @JayWeatherill, Premier of South Australia. Very impressed. Govt is clearly committed to a smart, quick solution.

Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull (known for his love of the Australian coal industry) has hour-long phone call with Musk.  (Perhaps he was simply happy not to get yelled at!  ;) )    PM's coal-loving party tries to cover by saying:  we knew about Musk's offer all along; we were just waiting for the right moment.

Mike Cannon-Brookes: @elonmusk @JayWeatherill not to push my luck… big $ commitments pouring in. Are 10 x 100MWh installs (grid distributed) possible or crazy?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/03/10/turnbull-urged-to-double-down-on-elon-musks-100-day-sa-power/

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/840770270776315904

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/13/scott-morrison-and-ray-hadley-laugh-about-coal-prop-great-stunt

https://twitter.com/mcannonbrookes/status/840413690113347584
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #403 on: March 12, 2017, 11:09:03 PM »
 Postscript:

Elon Musk: Just wanted to write a note of appreciation to the many Australians who came out in support of the battery plan, especially @mcannonbrookes
    .@mcannonbrookes Can only happen with your support, and working closely with key govt and utility leaders who are strongly committed to trying new approaches

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/841039231694786560
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #404 on: March 13, 2017, 08:10:27 PM »
Tesla wasn't the first to suggest battery storage was part of the solution to Australia's power problems. But they were the first to capture the imagination of the public and the politicians.

Billionaire tweets signal end of the road for fossil fuel dinosaurs
...Musk’s Twitter exchange with Cannon-Brookes triggered such a response on social media that he soon had both South Australia premier Jay Weatherill and prime minister Malcolm Turnbull on the phone, and had changed the debate about Australia’s energy future – something that thousands of submissions and endless reports had failed to do.

With any luck, this should be the wake up call needed to shake Australia’s politicians, regulators and media commentators from their delusion that fossil fuels are the only answer to Australia’s so-called energy crisis.

This assumption has been ruthlessly exploited by the “traditional” energy industry to call for a curb on new wind and solar farms, for the building of new “clean coal” plants and for the opening of coal seam gas reserves across the country – all in the name of so-called cheap, reliable and clean energy.

Of course, Tesla is not the first company to make the now obvious point that the solution relies not in new coal and gas plants, but in wind, solar and battery storage. But it helps to get media and public attention when two youngish, fashionable billionaires decide they can fix the country’s energy “crisis” in a Twitter conversation....
http://reneweconomy.com.au/billionaire-tweets-signal-end-of-the-road-for-fossil-fuel-dinosaurs-35646/
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jai mitchell

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #405 on: March 14, 2017, 04:36:06 PM »
Inventor of the Li-Ion battery develops new solid-state battery technology with higher energy density and greater lifecycle charge/discharge potential. 

this paper is free for those registered on the site.

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2017/ee/c6ee02888h/unauth#!divAbstract

story here:

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=utnewsshares

Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Introduces New Technology for Fast-Charging, Noncombustible Batteries
Feb. 28, 2017

Another advantage is that the battery cells can be made from earth-friendly materials.

“The glass electrolytes allow for the substitution of low-cost sodium for lithium. Sodium is extracted from seawater that is widely available,” Braga said.

Goodenough and Braga are continuing to advance their battery-related research and are working on several patents. In the short term, they hope to work with battery makers to develop and test their new materials in electric vehicles and energy storage devices.
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ghoti

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #406 on: March 14, 2017, 06:24:08 PM »
Wonderful news. Do you think they'll make it to realistic production before or after fusion power?

crandles

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #407 on: March 14, 2017, 11:55:56 PM »
Wonderful news. Do you think they'll make it to realistic production before or after fusion power?

Article didn't say much about timescale to actual product.

This research is supported by UT Austin, but there are no grants associated with this work. The UT Austin Office of Technology Commercialization is actively negotiating license agreements with multiple companies engaged in a variety of battery-related industry segments.

Sounds quite hopeful but who knows?

The researchers demonstrated that their new battery cells have at least three times as much energy density as today’s lithium-ion batteries.

Also sounds very good. Is that per weight or volume? If by weight/volume how does it affect volume/weight?

OTOH How often do we hear of some dramatic improvement and how often does that turn out to be an illusion?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #408 on: March 22, 2017, 04:29:42 PM »
The short video in this article dissects a Tesla battery cell and examines what's inside.  Their testing resulted in 95% capacity remaining after 500 cycles of the Tesla cell, compared with only 70% capacity using Panasonic's "off the shelf" formulation.

Tesla battery cell breakdown shows what is inside and difference with Panasonic’s regular cells
https://electrek.co/2017/03/22/tesla-battery-cell-breakdown/
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mati

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #409 on: March 22, 2017, 10:45:17 PM »
The short video in this article dissects a Tesla battery cell and examines what's inside.  Their testing resulted in 95% capacity remaining after 500 cycles of the Tesla cell, compared with only 70% capacity using Panasonic's "off the shelf" formulation.

Tesla battery cell breakdown shows what is inside and difference with Panasonic’s regular cells
https://electrek.co/2017/03/22/tesla-battery-cell-breakdown/

wow those numbers are really good
and so it goes

ghoti

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #410 on: March 23, 2017, 01:30:35 AM »
The Tesla numbers on degradation due to recharge cycles fits with announced claims for Powerwall/Powerpack. 5000 cycles / 15 years

Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #411 on: March 27, 2017, 06:56:00 PM »
Residual Value: Electric Batteries vs. Internal Combustion Engine Vehicles

https://ark-invest.com/research/ev-batteries-value

Extract
One of the chief concerns about Electric Vehicles (EVs) – battery degradation – seems to be misplaced: ARK’s research suggests that EV batteries will retain substantial value after reaching the end of their in-vehicle lives. Utilities are in constant demand for energy storage products. In fact, if electric utilities were to pay $15,000 per battery, the battery alone in a 10-year-old TeslaTSLA would retain more value than an entire vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine (ICE).
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #412 on: March 29, 2017, 05:53:10 PM »

... In fact, if electric utilities were to pay $15,000 per battery, the battery alone in a 10-year-old TeslaTSLA would retain more value than an entire vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine (ICE).


And consider this stock analysts's remarks:  he is warning his clients that considering all the safety technology being added to new cars, the value of used cars without it may plummet by 50% in the next 5 years:
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/27/this-is-teslas-opportunity-to-steal-market-share-morgan-stanley-analyst-says.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #413 on: April 02, 2017, 11:57:59 PM »
Australian home builder makes the Tesla Powerwall 2 standard in every new home
...
The effort could prove more popular in Australia, which has the world’s highest per capita penetration of rooftop solar with 15% of households using solar for a total of 1.5 million households across the country. Almost every new home is offered with a solar option since it reduces the installation cost and makes it even more economical.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/04/01/tesla-powerwall-2-home-builder-standard/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #414 on: April 12, 2017, 04:18:48 PM »
Wal-Mart, Advanced Microgrid Solutions to Turn Big-Box Stores Into Hybrid Electric Buildings
...
For Wal-Mart, the systems bring the ability to shave expensive peaks, smooth out imbalances in on-site generation and consumption, and help it meet a goal of powering half of its operations with renewable energy by 2025. Advanced Microgrid Solutions will manage its batteries in conjunction with building load -- as well as on-site solar or other generation -- to create what it calls a “hybrid electric building” able to keep its own energy costs to a minimum, while retaining flexibility for utility needs.
...
Wal-Mart has also installed onsite generation at 350 of its stores, in large part to allow them to stay open and running during blackouts -- although grid resiliency was not specifically highlighted as a use case in Tuesday’s announcement.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/wal-mart-to-turn-big-box-stores-into-hybrid-electric-buildings
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jai mitchell

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #415 on: April 13, 2017, 04:09:58 PM »
Residual Value: Electric Batteries vs. Internal Combustion Engine Vehicles

https://ark-invest.com/research/ev-batteries-value

Extract
One of the chief concerns about Electric Vehicles (EVs) – battery degradation – seems to be misplaced: ARK’s research suggests that EV batteries will retain substantial value after reaching the end of their in-vehicle lives. Utilities are in constant demand for energy storage products. In fact, if electric utilities were to pay $15,000 per battery, the battery alone in a 10-year-old TeslaTSLA would retain more value than an entire vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine (ICE).

I got to say I just F***ing love this post!!!
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DrTskoul

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #416 on: April 18, 2017, 02:38:04 PM »
Edison, GE unveil new battery systems at California gas plants

April 17 (Reuters) - A major California utility and General Electric Co on Monday unveiled a first-of-its-kind battery storage system that will enable instant power output from a natural gas peaking plant to accommodate the state's changing electricity needs while decreasing greenhouse gas emissions.

The system, which was installed at two separate Southern California Edison "peaker" plants this month, will give the utility increased flexibility as the large amounts of renewable wind and solar power required by state mandates have made energy generation cleaner but far less predictable.

Peaker plants are small power plants designed to come online quickly when power demand is high, such as on a hot summer day. But they are also among the least efficient resources available to the utility.

The 10 megawatt batteries, which contain cells made by Samsung SDI, are capable of providing power immediately, eliminating the need for the plant to burn fuel in "standby" mode. Prior to integrating the batteries, the 50 megawatt plant would take about 10 minutes to ramp up to a desired capacity.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #417 on: May 01, 2017, 04:01:52 PM »
Tesla to announce not ‘2 or 3’, but ‘probably 4’ more Gigafactories this year
Tesla surprised its shareholders earlier this year when they wrote in their quarterly letter that they plan to announce 2 or 3 more Gigafactories by the end of the year.

Considering the ‘Gigafactory 1’ in Nevada is one of Tesla’s biggest and most important projects, it was surprising that the company would build 2 to 3 more, but now CEO Elon Musk said that it will “probably be 4”.

He made the comment during his interview at the TED conference last week:

“I will announce locations for between two and four Gigafactories later this year – probably four.”

That’s one more than announced in February.

There have been a lot of speculations about the possible locations for the giant battery factories, but Musk only said that Tesla “needs to address a global market” when asked about which continents will get the new factories.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/05/01/tesla-gigafactories-4-more-year/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #418 on: May 02, 2017, 12:15:54 AM »
US's second largest solar farm builder talks about adding storage to their solar operations so that they can sell electricity as dispatchable supply.  Going after the very high price paid to gas peakers.

Cypress Creek is preparing to deploy its first 6 megawatts of energy storage later this year for a municipal utility in North Carolina. The company has up to 50 megawatts of additional energy storage deployments also in the works.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/cypress-creek-ceo-well-be-sub-75-cents-per-watt-by-2020

They are also projecting a drop from today's ~$1/watt for installed solar to $0.75/watt by 2020.  (That's two and a half years away.)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #419 on: May 02, 2017, 05:56:30 AM »
A transcript of Musk's recent TED interview is up.  I'm in the process of reading through and just hit this spot...


Chris: OK. So the key to the economics of the cars, the Semi, these houses, is the falling price of lithium ion batteries which you have made a huge bet on as Tesla and in many ways that’s the core competency. And you’ve decided to really, like, own that competency, you just have to build the world’s largest manufacturer to double the world’s supply of lithium ion batteries.

Elon: Yeah.

Chris: With this guy. What is this?

Elon: Yes, so that’s the Gigafactory, the progress so far on the Gigafactory. Eventually, you could sort of roughly see that there’s sort of a diamond shape overall. When it’s fully done it’ll be it looks like a giant diamond or that’s the idea behind it. It’s aligned on true North. That’s a small detail.

Chris: And capable of producing like one hundred or eventually like a hundred gigawatt hours of the batteries a year.

Elon: A hundred gigawatt hours. We think probably more, but yeah.

Chris: And they’re actually being produced right now. Right. This is the video. I mean is that speeded up?

Elon: That’s actually the slowed down version.

Chris: Yeah. How fast does it actually go?

Elon: Well when it’s running at full speed you can’t actually see the cells without a strobe light. It is just blur.

electrek.co/2017/05/01/elon-musk-on-boring-company-semi-truck-mars-ted-talk-transcript/


When it’s running at full speed it's just a blur.



Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #420 on: May 02, 2017, 06:01:36 PM »
 Here's the Tesla battery video, on YouTube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5JgiJK6lcc
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #421 on: May 04, 2017, 10:04:53 PM »
Tesla battery researcher unveils new chemistry to increase lifecycle at high voltage
...
The improved cells that they created from their research have performed exceptionally well after over 1,200 cycles:

If made into a car battery pack, 1,200 cycles would translate to roughly 300,000 miles (480,000 km) – meaning that a battery pack could still retain about 95% of its original energy capacity after ~300,000 miles – or 25 years at the average 12,000 miles per year.

Those results are truly impressive – especially since Dahn said that his team’s research is already “going into the company’s products“....
https://electrek.co/2017/05/04/tesla-battery-researcher-chemistry-lifcycle/
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Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #422 on: May 04, 2017, 10:26:26 PM »
When Tesla started I thought that eventually they would sell  a battery pack for a cheap price so that  the useful life of the car could be extended. Now it seems like the batteries will outlast the cars.

I think the big market here is grid and home energy storage. If the batteries can last 25 years could be groundbreaking, even at today prices. That they will get cheaper points to a paradigm shift in energy markets.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #423 on: May 04, 2017, 10:50:01 PM »
Musk has said earlier that their testing suggests that most Tesla S drivers would easily make it to 200,000 miles with at least 80% capacity remaining. 

That would have been good enough.  This is better and better is good.

A car with a working life of 25+ years.

Probably means that there would need to be some changes in frame/body materials in order to hold up in areas where a lot of road salt is used. 

And a need for easily swapped out interiors so that a quick paint job and new seats, carpets, etc. would keep it a car you weren't embarrassed to drive.

oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #424 on: May 04, 2017, 11:02:10 PM »
Regarding cycles, I wonder. 1200 cycles over 25 years is less than one cycle per week. However, I assume that the battery will be topped up more or less daily. So in terms of battery degradation, are 6000 cycles at 1/5 capacity the same as 1200 cycles of full capacity?

ghoti

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #425 on: May 05, 2017, 01:46:44 AM »
Yes

TerryM

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #426 on: May 05, 2017, 01:49:17 AM »
Does anyone have the figure handy for what percentage of power is lost through charging and discharging a Tesla battery? Do Tesla's batteries react poorly to deep discharge, and will partial discharges followed by partial charges or top ups allow many more charge cycles?
I've some familiarity with lead acid battery maintenance but this chemistry seems different on so many levels.

Thanks
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #427 on: May 05, 2017, 04:14:47 AM »
The rule of thumb is about 10% loss during charging and 10% loss from battery to kinetic motion.

I don't know why Tesla would be any different. 

Going to something like in hub motors should cut post battery losses a bit.  Fewer bearing surfaces = less friction.

Archimid

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #428 on: May 05, 2017, 04:34:19 AM »
Regarding cycles, I wonder. 1200 cycles over 25 years is less than one cycle per week. However, I assume that the battery will be topped up more or less daily. So in terms of battery degradation, are 6000 cycles at 1/5 capacity the same as 1200 cycles of full capacity?


You are right. I confused cycles in a car, that can be one cycle every few days, with cycles in a house or micro grid which at current battery sizes and prices will probably have to cycle everyday. 

I think that the rule of thumb for battery degradation in Tesla's chemistry is that degradation happens at close to full charge and close to almost no charge. It also happens at high temps regardless of the state of charge. I don't think charging the batteries at 1/5 charge or 4/5 charge would make much of a difference in battery life. 5/5 or 0/5 would destroy them real quick.

I think it was Sigmetnow that posted a video that contained very good details about this. I can't find the post but this is the video that best explain Li+ chemistry and Tesla's approach to maximizing it:

https://youtu.be/5WpQh4kZ_MU
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jai mitchell

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #429 on: May 05, 2017, 04:37:39 AM »
Regarding cycles, I wonder. 1200 cycles over 25 years is less than one cycle per week. However, I assume that the battery will be topped up more or less daily. So in terms of battery degradation, are 6000 cycles at 1/5 capacity the same as 1200 cycles of full capacity?


You are right. I confused cycles in a car, that can be one cycle every few days, with cycles in a house or micro grid which at current battery sizes and prices will probably have to cycle everyday. 

I think that the rule of thumb for battery degradation in Tesla's chemistry is that degradation happens at close to full charge and close to almost no charge. It also happens at high temps regardless of the state of charge. I don't think charging the batteries at 1/5 charge or 4/5 charge would make much of a difference in battery life. 5/5 or 0/5 would destroy them real quick.

I think it was Sigmetnow that posted a video that contained very good details about this. I can't find the post but this is the video that best explain Li+ chemistry and Tesla's approach to maximizing it:

https://youtu.be/5WpQh4kZ_MU

benchmark testing of batteries looks at full cycle charge/discharge for maximum battery stress and degradation.  This development indicates that a normal operating vehicle will have a greatly increased range at longer operating times.  Current operations of high-use vehicles, like the Tesloop company in Los Angeles shows that batteries with 200,000 miles and 85% degradation can still be sold on the grid-storage aftermarket for upwards of $15,000.   
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #430 on: May 05, 2017, 07:29:41 AM »
Thanks all


10% is a fairly stiff price if other storage methods such as intermittent hydro are available.


Terry

oren

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #431 on: May 05, 2017, 08:38:14 AM »
Terry if and when you have an overbuild of cheap solar and wind, the 10% energy conversion loss should not be much of an issue. The problem with renewables is not lack of power, but its intermittent nature.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #432 on: May 05, 2017, 08:40:17 PM »
Thanks all


10% is a fairly stiff price if other storage methods such as intermittent hydro are available.


Terry

Hydro is a wonderful fill-in for wind and solar.  If there's some available.  In many parts of the world there simply aren't enough hydro resources to do the job.  Patagonia and its neighbors are in like Flynn, Saudi Arabia out in the cold.

Energy loss (10% for batteries, ~15% for pump-up hydro storage, 60% for hydrogen) are a cost factor which has to be included along with infrastructure, operating and transmission costs as we decide what to use to make renewables 24/365. 

To get a kWh of a 90% efficient battery we have to insert 1.1 kWh.  A kWh out of a hydrogen/fuel cell storage system would need a 1.7 kWh input.  Price out the electricity cost and then add in the other costs.

ghoti

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #433 on: May 06, 2017, 01:15:21 AM »
Shouldn't forget that hydro, especially large hydro, is often very far from the load. Transmission losses are significant. Local generation & batteries with 10% loss probably beats distant hydro for efficiency.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #434 on: May 06, 2017, 03:12:54 AM »
Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 6.6% in 1997 and 6.5% in 2007. (Wiki)  The most recent combined loss from the EIA is 5% in 2016.

A year or two ago the EIA broke apart the transmission and distribution losses.  Distribution was responsible for over half of the total, IIRC.  That makes transmission losses very low, perhaps around 2%.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #435 on: May 06, 2017, 05:20:39 AM »
With modernization of the grid I'd expect transmission losses to drop. Installed hydro is as cheap and clean a source for electricity as I can imagine. In addition Hydro uses no water for cooling or to be boiled off as steam. Solar panels have no moving parts, but they do have a useful lifespan.

Wiki expects a 3.1% increase every year for the next 25 years, or more than a doubling in this time period.
With the electrification of every form of transportation, we're going to need every form of clean juice that's available. I can't help thinking that whenever overproduction occurs, there has to be some way to utilize the excess that doesn't cost 10%.


Terry

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #436 on: May 06, 2017, 06:39:47 AM »
I suspect that the part of the US grid that will most benefit from modernization will be the distribution side.  Getting less efficient (heat loss) transformers swapped out, for example.

There's an issue with hydro that has yet to be ironed out.  Some hydro in Brazil is a large methane source.  One or more dams there are fairly low and flood a very large amount of land.  As the dam fills lots of plants are submerged and lots of methane released.  There seems to be evidence that as the water level drops vegetation regrows and then is submerged during the rainy season.  A methane producing cycle.

Some people have argued that the same happens in areas further from the equator.  I'm not convinced.  I've lived around electricity producing dams on both sides of the country and I've never see appreciable amounts of veg grow when the water level drops. 

"Solar panels have no moving parts, but they do have a useful lifespan."

The NREL has been testing solar panels for a while now.  They report an average of 0.5% loss per year.  95% of original output at 10 years, 75% at 50 years, 50% at 100 years.  (And dams tend to silt in over time.)

"With the electrification of every form of transportation, we're going to need every form of clean juice that's available. I can't help thinking that whenever overproduction occurs, there has to be some way to utilize the excess that doesn't cost 10%."

Actually EVs should greatly reduce overproduction losses.  On average EVs will need about three hours of charging per day.  Assume some people charge at home at night, others charge during the day at work/school. 

With smart charging those EVs can be sitting there, waiting for some oversupply and then suck it down.  Supply tightens, they drop out.

If you've got a 35 mile daily drive habit (US average), a personal "emergency minimum" of 50 miles, and a 200 mile range EV there's over 100 miles of charging that utilities could use as desired.  Days with lots of extra supply, charge everyone up well over their "85".  Days with limited supply, let people drop to their "85".

Don't worry about curtailing wind or solar some.  Right now US coal and CCNG plants run less than 60% of the time, gas peakers run about 5% of the time.  Curtailing solar or wind means that we have hardware sitting when it could be producing.  Our fossil plant hardware sits idle a heck of a lot of the time.

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #437 on: May 06, 2017, 08:12:24 PM »
...
With the electrification of every form of transportation, we're going to need every form of clean juice that's available. ...

Terry


Oil refineries require huge amounts of electricity to run!  That's why they usually locate an electrical substation next door. :o
So, the less gasoline we use, the more electricity is available for electric transportation.

Exact numbers are hard to come by, but here's Elon on the subject:

Chris: It's funny they make that argument, because they're one of the largest users of electricity in the country, to refine gasoline. That's why the power cords go into refineries. Something like 4 to 6 kilowatt hours of electricity to refine every gallon of gasoline. They're pulling that electricity from the same source as they're critiquing on electric cars and they get much less result out of it.

Elon: Exactly. Chris has a nice way of saying it which is, you have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline. You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours. You basically have the energy needed to power electric vehicles if you stop refining.
http://www.plugincars.com/refining-oil-requires-more-electricity-evs.html

And the Tesla Model S is a big, heavy car.  Smaller EVs will do even better.

Edit:  A couple more links:
http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline

http://electricmini.blogspot.com/2011/10/it-takes-lot-of-coal-to-make-gasoline.html
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 08:20:59 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #438 on: May 06, 2017, 08:44:31 PM »
You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline

I question that claim.  I've worked through the numbers for California refineries and found  that they use a bit less energy per gallon of gasoline but only a small portion of that energy comes from outside purchased electricity.  Most of the energy comes from natural gas, coal, coke, and some of the petroleum itself.

Here are the energy inputs for 2010, all converted to kWh equivalents...

LPG                                           2,710,629,777
Distillate Fuel Oil                          812,426,729
Still Gas                                292,044,328,839
Petroleum Coke                     146,560,003,581
Marketable Petroleum Coke       1,584,461,115
Catalyst Petroleum Coke        144,975,542,465
Other Petroleum Product           4,165,172,029
Natural Gas                           221,589,097,304
Coal                                              246,483,001
Purchased Electricity            46,227,000,000
Purchased Steam                     37,802,168,816


Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #439 on: May 08, 2017, 06:04:11 PM »
Article and Video:

Tesla battery director explains the Gigafactory 1 supply chain
In the rapidly growing battery industry, there’s currently no more ambitious project than Tesla’s Gigafactory 1 in Nevada. Tesla has become the largest buyer of li-ion batteries and now it is trying to become the largest producer of li-ion batteries.

Which is why a lot of industry people were excited that Kurt Kelty, Tesla’s longtime director of battery technology, was in Florida last March to give a keynote address at the International Battery Seminar. His presentation focused on the Gigafactory and its unique supply chain all the way to material sourcing.
...
The executive also went into details about the raw materials needed to make the batteries.

He identified Nickel, Cobalt, Graphite and lithium as the biggest cost drivers for the overall battery cost. In January, they had already confirmed having secured the supply through 2017, which Kelty reiterated, but he now also discusses ongoing outlook for the sourcing of the minerals and how they plan on securing them.

Kelty says that Tesla is not worried over the next 5 years when it comes to material sourcing for batteries, but after that, it will depend on electric vehicle growth.

He said that they are trying to convince mining companies that electric vehicle growth will be much faster than most predictions and that they should prepare for it. If they don’t, supply could be constrained early in the next decade and prices could spike.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/05/08/tesla-battery-director-gigafactory-supply-chain/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #440 on: May 09, 2017, 07:01:20 PM »
Tesla battery researcher says they doubled lifetime of batteries in Tesla’s products 4 years ahead of time
...
It’s also important to note that Dahn’s research was focusing on Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) battery cells, which Tesla uses for its stationary storage products (Powerwall and Powerpack), and the first cell production at Gigafactory 1 was for those products.

Dahn explained that by increasing the lifetime of those batteries, Tesla is reducing the cost of delivered kWh for its residential and utility-scale projects. He estimates the costs at $0.23 per kWh for residential solar with storage and $0.139 per kWh for utility-scale, based on Tesla’s current projects....
https://electrek.co/2017/05/09/tesla-battery-lifetime-double/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #441 on: May 11, 2017, 08:00:15 PM »
Elon Musk tweeted an update on the battery storage projects (and satellite internet) in Australia.  ;)


Anthony Armstrong:
@elonmusk feel like bringing decent internet to AUS? also hows the Battery situation with our Gov going?

Elon Musk: @Armstrong_Anth Yes. Good.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/862573249430814720
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #442 on: May 12, 2017, 10:36:08 PM »
Tesla announces new electric grid services by bundling Powerwalls and Powerpacks
Tesla has already been offering energy storage services to electric utilities with the Powerpack – like its 80 MWh Powerpack station with Southern California Edison.

But now, the company announces that it will be bundling its residential energy storage product, the Powerwall, with the Powerpack to create “a single resource of shared energy.”

It’s a service that has been popular in Germany with other energy storage suppliers where electric utilities not only employ large-scale energy storage, like the Powerpack, but also a lot of smaller residential installations which they can access to control the load.
...
The announcement of the new service today includes a partnership between Tesla and Green Mountain Power, a utility in Vermont. This project will not only aggregate Powerwalls, like the previous ones, but it will also combine them with energy capacity from Powerpack projects.

Green Mountain Power will install Powerpacks on utility land and deploy up to 2,000 Powerwall batteries to homeowners within the utility’s service territory. The homeowners who will receive a Powerwall will be able to use it for backup power for “$15 a month or a $1,500 one-time fee” and Green Mountain Power will be able to access the energy in the pack to support its grid.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/05/12/tesla-new-electric-grid-services-bundling-powerwall-powerpack/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #443 on: May 16, 2017, 02:19:54 AM »
More on Vermont's Tesla and Green Mountain Power project.

GMP, Tesla team up on energy storage project
• Green Mountain Power will place Tesla Powerpacks on utility land.
• Up to 2,000 Tesla Powerwalls will go to the homes of Vermonters.
...
“Green Mountain Power is unique in their excitement to adopt this sooner than others, but the same technology and the same exact model is relevant, frankly, all over the world," said Straubel. "So, you know, we’re already having some early discussions with other utilities and grid operators and our feeling is that this is possible a way that most storage will end up getting networked together in the future and I think it has a really exciting, you know, road map."
...
http://www.wcax.com/story/35415110/gmp-tesla-team-up-on-energy-storage-project
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #444 on: May 18, 2017, 05:00:26 PM »
Mercedes partners with Vivint on home batteries for solar to compete with Tesla/SolarCity
Since Tesla started producing home battery packs and selling them through SolarCity in 2014, several other automakers, including Nissan and BMW, started also leveraging their electric vehicle battery pack technology for residential energy storage.

Now Mercedes-Benz is the latest to join the industry and it seems to be doing it in a more serious way than Nissan or BMW with a new partnership with Vivint Solar, the second biggest residential solar installer in the US after Tesla’s SolarCity.

Daimler unveiled its Mercedes-branded home battery pack last year, but this new deal with Vivint will enable them to distribute it more widely in the US.

Boris von Bormann, CEO of Mercedes-Benz Energy Americas, commented on the announcement:

As Mercedes-Benz electrifies its vehicle fleet, solar plus storage is essential to enable those vehicles to be powered by clean energy. With batteries featuring the best in automotive engineering from Mercedes-Benz, and high-quality solar energy systems from Vivint Solar, our solution allows customers to take the next step toward a sustainable energy future. The launch of our home battery system in Europe has been successful and we are thrilled to be working with Vivint Solar to bring a reliable and compelling solar plus storage offering to American homes.”
https://electrek.co/2017/05/18/mercedes-vivint-home-batteries-solar-tesla-powerwall/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #445 on: May 18, 2017, 05:53:54 PM »
Since car makers are looking at a potential very large shrinking of their industry it makes sense for them to look for new business opportunities.


Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #446 on: May 22, 2017, 06:57:52 PM »
Daimler unveils new battery factory.  Importance of the announcement:  attended by Federal Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel and Stanislaw Tillich (Minister President of Saxony).

They didn’t confirm the capacity of the plant, but it is expected to be in the gigawatt-hour range and it will employ over 1,000 workers.

Daimler unveils its own new battery Gigafactory for electric vehicles
https://electrek.co/2017/05/22/daimler-battery-gigafactory-electric-vehicles/
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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #447 on: May 22, 2017, 07:57:10 PM »
According to the Financial Times  there are 14 large battery factories in operation or under construction worldwide — 9 of them in China.




Tesla is expected to announce the location of four more Gigafactories later this year.  CATL has stated that it intends to be the world's largest battery manufacturer.  Looks like there will be a huge increase in factory capacity over the next few years.

Time to get out of the oil business....