Please support this Forum and Neven's Blog

Author Topic: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution  (Read 89602 times)

numerobis

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 186
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #500 on: August 04, 2017, 07:30:23 PM »
Hopefully by 2019 you'll be able to buy a decent EV without getting a 2-year waiting list. We're not living in the Soviet Union.

I'm hoping my current car makes it to the time widespread car ownership stops being a thing.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 8320
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #501 on: August 04, 2017, 08:32:03 PM »
When I first read "Batteries" in your post, swoozle, I thought it was an OT comment!  Then I noticed the thread's title (that is, I noticed where I was). 

My 2002 Prius got new batteries in 2009 (at ~80,000 miles and fully under warrantee!).  Anybody have an idea how long the 'new' batteries will last (now @ 135,000 miles)?  (In other words, should I put $1K down for a Model 3 - to be delivered in, approximately, 2019, or plan to buy new batteries.)

 I don't have any stats for you, but Toyota has not enjoyed great success with its Prius batteries –– I think that's one reason they gave up and turned to hydrogen instead of developing pure EVs.

By 2019, Tesla should be making over 500,000 cars a year, so with you being in the U.S., you should be able to order one without a reservation.  Plus (dare I say it ;) ), some other EV (or car service) may catch your eye by then.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1937
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #502 on: August 05, 2017, 08:50:36 AM »
I would imagine that there is one or more Prius owner forums online where you might be able to get some good information.

I'd suggest that your first experience may not tell you anything about how a 'next' set of batteries might last.  Battery tech seems to be moving along at a rapid pace.

ghoti

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 547
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #503 on: August 05, 2017, 05:21:29 PM »
Non-plugin Prius batteries are extremely old tech - considered unusable for battery electrics. They are NiMH. Toyota's fear of Li Ion batteries prevented their advance into battery electric cars.

Tor Bejnar

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1480
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #504 on: August 05, 2017, 10:23:46 PM »
I've read that 180,000 miles for Prius batteries is typical, so I have 125,000 to go, or about 18 years, given how I have been driving it!  I'll deserve a new car when I'm 80.   :)  And I'll be a safe driver then because it will be self-driving car.   :P
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1840
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #505 on: August 05, 2017, 10:58:30 PM »
When Prius was first introduced into the states they had a lifetime warranty on the battery, or so the saleslady informed me. I'd been concerned as at the time I lived in the desert and the extreme heat was hard on the lead acid batteries.
Terry

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 8320
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #506 on: August 07, 2017, 04:22:25 PM »
Electric Car Boom Drives Rush to Mining's $90 Billion Heartland
Lithium scramble likened to Big Oil’s race to Middle East
Australia cementing status as a dominant supplier, UBS says
A scramble by the lithium market’s biggest players to tie up supply of the high-tech metal is gathering pace in the 170-year-old heartland of Australia’s $90 billion mining industry.

Rising Chinese demand for lithium-ion batteries needed for electric vehicles and energy storage is driving significant price gains and an asset boom in Australia, already the world’s largest lithium producer. The fast-developing hub is drawing investment and deals from global producers as well as chemical-to-battery manufacturers in China, the top consumer. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-06/electric-car-boom-drives-rush-to-mining-s-90-billion-heartland
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1840
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #507 on: August 08, 2017, 02:36:39 AM »
I saw some large orchards being torn out for a massive solar installation yesterday. Left me with mixed feelings.
Terry


Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 8320
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #509 on: August 08, 2017, 03:23:01 PM »
And they are only running it 40% of the time!

Tesla Gigafactory is already producing more batteries than any other factory in the world, says Elon Musk
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/tesla-gigafactory-battery-cell-production-elon-musk
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 8320
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #510 on: August 08, 2017, 05:41:45 PM »
 Because they are turning over a new LEAF?  ;) ;D

Nissan confirms the sale of its electric car battery business
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/nissan-sale-electric-car-battery-business/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

ghoti

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 547
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #511 on: August 08, 2017, 06:16:45 PM »
Because they are turning over a new LEAF?  ;) ;D

Nissan confirms the sale of its electric car battery business
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/nissan-sale-electric-car-battery-business/
Because they recognize they aren't very good at making batteries. They treat them as a commodity to be out sourced like the vast majority of part in their cars just like all major car makers. In ICE vehicles only the engines are considered a core in house part they can compete with.

This is a bad sign for the future of car makers. With EVs what is left to distinguish between brands? Design? They all copy each other. Electronics? They are mostly seriously lacking. Self-driving capability? Maybe but likely they will all outsource that too.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1937
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #512 on: August 08, 2017, 07:12:26 PM »
And they are only running it 40% of the time!

Tesla Gigafactory is already producing more batteries than any other factory in the world, says Elon Musk
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/tesla-gigafactory-battery-cell-production-elon-musk

Tesla is running only 30% of the total Gigafactory 40% of the time.  They're still building 70% of the plant.  More batteries than any other factory in the world at 12% target output.

And Tesla is going to start construction on 2 to  4 more.  They be battery makin' fools....

numerobis

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 186
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #513 on: August 08, 2017, 10:57:50 PM »
I just learned a childhood friend is into batteries and has founded a company providing batteries to replace portable generators:
http://www.portable-electric.com

It seems like an obvious fit.

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1840
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #514 on: August 09, 2017, 12:28:09 AM »
I just learned a childhood friend is into batteries and has founded a company providing batteries to replace portable generators:
http://www.portable-electric.com

It seems like an obvious fit.



A nice concept. Locally concerts and fairs all seem wired through the grid, but this might allow events to be held at more remote sites.
Terry

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 8320
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #515 on: August 10, 2017, 01:30:03 AM »
So many batteries, so little time: Tesla is using battery cells from Samsung (not its usual partner, Panasonic) to build its power packs for the giant Australia storage project.

Tesla’s giant new Powerpack project in Australia will use battery cells made by Samsung
On a conference call hosted by Goldman Sachs for bondholders following Tesla’s new bond issuance earlier this week, Musk said that Tesla would actually use Samsung cells in the Powerpacks for the major project in South Australia, according to sources who were on the call.

That’s a significant project to partner on with Samsung since it represents more energy capacity on a single project (129 MWh) than Tesla delivered in all its Powerpack projects combined during the entire last quarter (97 MWh).

While Korea-based Samsung SDI is making the cells, Tesla is still building the Powerpacks for the project at the Gigafactory in Nevada. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/08/09/tesla-powerpack-project-australia-battery-cell-samsung/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Governor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3944
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #516 on: August 10, 2017, 02:32:43 AM »
Okay, so the lithium is mined in Australia, shipped to Korea where they make the batteries, shipped to Nevada where they assemble the Powerpacks, and then shipped back to Australia again for instalment.

Sounds to me like there's some room for LCA improvement there!  ;)
Il faut cultiver notre jardin

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1937
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #517 on: August 10, 2017, 02:38:26 AM »
Okay, so the lithium is mined in Australia, shipped to Korea where they make the batteries, shipped to Nevada where they assemble the Powerpacks, and then shipped back to Australia again for instalment.

Sounds to me like there's some room for LCA improvement there!  ;)

Correct.  I think we're going to soon hear about upcoming construction to build a Tesla battery factory in Australia.  Due to very high electricity prices, cheap rooftop solar, and a lot of end-user solar already installed Australia should be a place where Tesla will sell a lot of their storage units. 

If Tesla does announce four new Gigafactories in the next month or two I expect one in Australia, one in the US, one in Europe and one in Asia.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 8320
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #518 on: August 10, 2017, 03:53:38 PM »
Don't know why we talk of PV in the battery trend....

Oops!  Quite right.  "Solar in Japan" post moved to Renewable Energy thread:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,256.msg124652.html#msg124652
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

numerobis

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 186
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #519 on: August 11, 2017, 05:17:15 PM »
Okay, so the lithium is mined in Australia, shipped to Korea where they make the batteries, shipped to Nevada where they assemble the Powerpacks, and then shipped back to Australia again for instalment.

Sounds to me like there's some room for LCA improvement there!  ;)

I wonder how much the shipping adds in cost (carbon cost or dollar cost). My bet: minimal.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Royalty
  • Posts: 8320
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #520 on: August 15, 2017, 03:56:43 AM »
“Carlsson said that they aimed to produce advanced li-ion battery cell in different formats with a cost below $100 per kWh.”

Former Tesla execs launch funding effort for their own battery gigafactory in Europe
The actual start of production is expected in 2020 with a capacity of 8 GWh per year and they aim for 32 GWh of capacity once the entire factory will be completed in 2023. It’s comparable to Tesla’s expected production capacity in 2018 for Gigafactory 1 in Nevada.
https://electrek.co/2017/08/14/former-tesla-execs-funding-battery-gigafactory-europe/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1937
    • View Profile
Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #521 on: August 15, 2017, 05:22:28 AM »
If someone can get battery prices below $100/kWh and maintain good cycle life then things are really going to be shaken up.  Given that there's no sign this company is also intending to build cars they would become a source for really affordable batteries in Europe and someone is going to use them to grab a lot of market away from ICEVs.

Let's hope they can pull it off.