Batteries: Today's Energy Solution

[Sigmetnow]

Link has a big infographic on the market for various battery materials.

Breakdown of raw materials in Tesla’s batteries and possible bottlenecks
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/

[Sigmetnow]

Battery degradation appears to be less of a problem than many have feared -- at least for Tesla batteries.  And frequent supercharging is associated with less degradation, not more.

Tesla battery packs data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack

A group of Tesla owners on the Dutch-Belgium Tesla Forum are gathering data from 286 Tesla Model S owners across the world and frequently updating it in a public Google file.

The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it’s difficult to make a pack lose another 5%.

The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity.
...
CEO Elon Musk once referred to a battery pack Tesla was testing in the lab. He said that the company had simulated over 500,000 miles on it and that it was still operating at over 80% of its original capacity. It sounds crazy. The car itself is more likely to give up than the battery pack at this kind of mileage, but based on this new data, it looks a lot more plausible.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

[Csnavywx]

Battery degradation appears to be less of a problem than many have feared -- at least for Tesla batteries.  And frequent supercharging is associated with less degradation, not more.

Tesla battery packs data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack

A group of Tesla owners on the Dutch-Belgium Tesla Forum are gathering data from 286 Tesla Model S owners across the world and frequently updating it in a public Google file.

The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it’s difficult to make a pack lose another 5%.

The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity.
...
CEO Elon Musk once referred to a battery pack Tesla was testing in the lab. He said that the company had simulated over 500,000 miles on it and that it was still operating at over 80% of its original capacity. It sounds crazy. The car itself is more likely to give up than the battery pack at this kind of mileage, but based on this new data, it looks a lot more plausible.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

The big issue they have isn't necessarily the battery packs, but the reliability of the vehicle (frame, bearings, other parts) itself. They need to implement a Toyota-style QA system to tackle that issue and they haven't really gone that direction yet. Performance is great, but most prioritize reliability over that.

[Sigmetnow]

Tesla slashes price of the Powerpack system by another 10% with new generation

The company changed its system and it is not breaking down the pricing per components anymore, but one can figure out an approximate price per kWh by playing with the capacity of the systems. It comes out to about $398 per kwh – down from $445 in September and $470/kWh before that.

Tesla is still limiting the size of the systems [you can configure on the website] and it’s likely that the price per kWh would come down a lot with bigger installations.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/14/tesla-powerpack-2-price/

[Sigmetnow]

BMW is succesfully using its electric vehicle fleet to offer grid services in California

Last year, BMW announced the first trial of its ‘ChargeForward’ program to recruit BMW i3 owners willing to automatically delay the charging of their vehicle at the request of the local electric utility, PG&E, in order to offset peak demand.

This week BMW released the findings of the trial, which it deems successful, and it announced a second round of the program with more BMW i3 owners and for a longer period of time.

The idea is quite simple. Under the program, PG&E can request BMW to delay the charging sessions of BMW i3 owners by up to an hour in order to reduce the load.
...
• In 94 percent of the demand response events through October 2016, BMW successfully reached the full grid load reduction of 100 kW requested by PG&E.
• By August 2016, more than 19,000 kilowatt-hours (kWh) were shifted as a result of ChargeForward events, avoiding costly and carbon-intensive electricity generation.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/15/bmw-electric-vehicle-fleet-grid-service-chargeforward/

[Sigmetnow]

On the sleepy Hawaiian island of Kauai sits a first of its kind solar and battery project.

When the project is finished early next year, the batteries will store the sun’s energy during the day to be used at night, when the local utility, Kauai Island Utility Cooperative, usually starts turning on fossil fuel-consuming generators. When the farm is switched on it will be one of the first ones where a utility is using big blocks of Tesla batteries, and it will also be one of the first utility systems to use solar and batteries to displace power-hungry generators.

http://fortune.com/tesla-solarcity-battery-solar-farm/

[Sigmetnow]

Tesla Powerwall 2 to be popular in Sweden with new $5,000 incentive to install home battery packs

In Sweden, Tesla sells the Powerwall 2 for 61,000 Swedish Krona (~$6,600 USD), but with installation and additional hardware (12,300 SEK), Tesla estimates it will add up to a total 0f 73,300 Swedish Krona ($7,900 USD), which adds up to taking advantage of almost the entire incentive and getting an installed energy capacity of 14 kWh for less than $3,000.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/24/tesla-powerwall-2-to-be-popular-in-sweden-with-new-5000-incentive-to-install-home-battery-packs/

[Sigmetnow]

Tesla's Powerwall 2 can pay for itself in six years, then its electricity is free

Mr Vorstermans calculated it would take between six and nine years to pay off – and ordered one for delivery in February to store power from his 4kW of solar rooftop panels.

"I am buying between six and nine years of solar power in advance – that's the way I look at it – and anything I get out of it after that is free power," he tells The Australian Financial Review.
...
But Mr Mountain, director of Carbon + Energy Markets, said Tesla's growing scale and vertical integration would challenge rival battery and inverter vendors because they would struggle to match its prices.

He calculated that a typical Adelaide solar household with 5kW of panels and a Powerwall 2 would generate about 8400kWh of power a year, use 4800kWh, export about 3800kWh to the grid and only have to buy about 200kWh from the grid.

If the household took the best grid offer, its annual cost of power would be $123 a year cheaper than the cheapest grid-only offer ($1645 a year) and $449 lower than the median grid-only offer ($1971). Mr Mountain assumed a cost of capital equal to a typical mortgage on the $16,000 up-front cost.

"In other words, our typical 4800kWh household in Adelaide can beat all current grid-only market offers by installing a PV (solar photovoltaic) and battery system and selecting the best retail offer," Mr Mountain said in an article on Reneweconomy.com.

http://www.afr.com/technology/teslas-powerwall-2-can-pay-for-itself-in-6-years-then-its-electricity-is-free-20161124-gsx6vv

[Sigmetnow]

Tesla’s battery cost lead perfectly illustrated in one simple chart

Tesla has a cost per warranted kWh delivered about 30% lower than the closest competitor and several times lower than most competitors, including important battery manufacturer like LG, Samsung, and even Tesla’s own battery cell supplier, Panasonic.

The battery cells in Tesla’s Powerwall will reportedly be made by Panasonic at Tesla’s Gigafactory, but they were developed by Tesla in partnership with Panasonic. The combination of using those new battery cells with Tesla’s latest generation battery pack technology resulted in this new record low battery pack price.

https://electrek.co/2016/12/01/tesla-battery-cost-chart/

Here’s the chart (note that the price is in AUD):

[Sigmetnow]

Testing the fire risk of the commercial-size Tesla battery pack. 
Results: it does not explode.

Tesla set fire to a Powerpack to test its safety features – the results are impressive

NFPA concluded that a prolonged fire outside the Powerpack could definitely induce the Powerpack into thermal runaway, but they found that the consequences were confined to the pack and didn’t propagate...
...
In conclusion, if a fire starts from inside a pod, it doesn’t propagate to the rest of the Powerpack. And if a fire starts outside the Powerpack, it wouldn’t spread to other Powerpacks around it. Of course, there are also several safety features preventing those things from ever happening, but the NFPA’s tests were for worst case scenarios.

https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-safety/

[Sigmetnow]

‘2170’-format Battery Cell Production Begins at the Gigafactory

Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy through increasingly affordable electric vehicles in addition to renewable energy generation and storage. At the heart of these products are batteries. Today at the Gigafactory, Tesla and Panasonic begin mass production of lithium-ion battery cells, which will be used in Tesla’s energy storage products and Model 3.
...
With the Gigafactory online and ramping up production, our cost of battery cells will significantly decline due to increasing automation and process design to enhance yield, lowered capital investment per Wh of production, the simple optimization of locating most manufacturing processes under one roof, and economies of scale. By bringing down the cost of batteries, we can make our products available to more and more people, allowing us to make the biggest possible impact on transitioning the world to sustainable energy....

https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-cell-production-begins-gigafactory


Tesla starts mass production of new ‘2170’ battery cell at the Gigafactory, will be used in Model 3 in Q2

Tesla CEO Elon Musk has been boasting about the new cell over the past few [months]. He said that it’s the “highest energy density cell in the world and also the cheapest”.
...
As we recently reported, several other companies are claiming the same title, namely Faraday Future with LG Chem, and Lucid Motors with both Samsun SDI and LG Chem again. ...

https://electrek.co/2017/01/04/tesla-2170-battery-cell-production-gigafactory-model-3/

[Sigmetnow]

Article includes a 5-second video from Tesla showing the battery cells speeding through the new production line.

Tesla Gigafactory begins producing cells
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-gigafactory-begins-producing-cells/

[DrTskoul]

Article includes a 5-second video from Tesla showing the battery cells speeding through the new production line.

Tesla Gigafactory begins producing cells
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-gigafactory-begins-producing-cells/

What is the rate of the production ?

[Sigmetnow]

Article includes a 5-second video from Tesla showing the battery cells speeding through the new production line.

Tesla Gigafactory begins producing cells
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-gigafactory-begins-producing-cells/

What is the rate of the production ?

Production is still ramping up (and will continue to do so as they finish the rest of the building).  And details are proprietary (no photography allowed on the factory tours!).  But...

There's this from Tesla:

Production of 2170 cells for qualification started in December and today, production begins on cells that will be used in Tesla’s Powerwall 2 and Powerpack 2 energy products. Model 3 cell production will follow in Q2 and by 2018, the Gigafactory will produce 35 GWh/year of lithium-ion battery cells, nearly as much as the rest of the entire world’s battery production combined.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-cell-production-begins-gigafactory

And Elon Musk's comment that the battery cells come off the line "faster than bullets out of a machine gun."    Wikipedia says that's up to about 1,800 per minute.  A Tesla car battery pack contains about 7,000 cells....

[ghoti]

I guess we could have calculated the battery production speed from the video - number of batteries zooming by per second. A production line is generally expected to be in equilibrium when running smoothly.

It seems however that the video was taken down so we'll just have to wait until it gets announced.

[Sigmetnow]

I guess we could have calculated the battery production speed from the video - number of batteries zooming by per second. A production line is generally expected to be in equilibrium when running smoothly.

It seems however that the video was taken down so we'll just have to wait until it gets announced.

Besides, there could be multiple "lines" of battery production, all going at once!

(This is a still I saved from the video:)

[Sigmetnow]

 Here's the Tesla battery video, on YouTube:

[Sigmetnow]

More from the Tesla gigafactory event last week.  The factory will be solar powered, with recycling of water, waste heat and battery products.

Tesla reveals more details about ‘Gigafactory 1’: Model 3 battery pack, largest rooftop solar array in the world (70MW), & more

Tesla had originally planned a production capacity of 35 GWh of battery cells and battery pack production of 50 GWh at the Gigafactory 1, but now the company is guiding that capacity for 2018 and 3 times that for full production around 2020.

In the document, Tesla explained how the how they managed to lower GF1 capital investment per GWh to achieve the increase:

Increase facility production density and accelerate throughput
In-house design & build construction approach
Thoughtful facility systems and equipment design, layout and implementation
Innovative construction techniques to reduce land, construction, infrastructure, materials and labor costs

And for the cost per kWh of cells and battery packs:

Domesticating production to reduce tariffs and input costs (elements, components, labor, energy, water)
Re-engineer the entire supply chain as a function of higher production volume and tailored component requirements, while reducing transportation costs.
Improved cell design to increase cell level energy density, optimized cell size (2170 vs 18650)
Improved module and pack design to increase pack-level energy density
Increasing automation and process design to enhance yield, reduce scrap cost and improve in-field reliability
Lowering capital investment/GWh to reduce depreciation costs

https://electrek.co/2017/01/10/tesla-gigafactory-1-model-3-battery-pack-rooftop-solar/

[magnamentis]

would it be blasphemy in this thread to raise to topic of sustainability, energy balance and environmental impacts of battery production and disposal as well as resource exploitation needed to provide the tech to the masses in amounts that have to be expected.

don't get me wrong, i like batt-tech and it's better than what we have now but still if we do not care about it's downsides and/or critical factors in due time we might end up with a hard to manage mass problem similar to many other technologies that were no issue when only few were making use of it and/or not the entire life depended on it ( oil and it's derivatives for example )

just raising the topic not to say later "this what i thought all the time" LOL

[Sigmetnow]

would it be blasphemy in this thread to raise to topic of sustainability, energy balance and environmental impacts of battery production and disposal as well as resource exploitation needed to provide the tech to the masses in amounts that have to be expected.

...

Of course it would not be blasphemous.  We must be aware of the risks of massive new mineral industry we will use, at least in the short term, to take the place of fossil fuels.  Which is one reason why research and development to increase battery energy density and efficiency (allowing less materials to be used) is so important.  Tesla stresses that almost every part of its batteries can be recycled -- and there is great incentive to do so because it is cheaper:  all the mining and processing has already been done.

[Sigmetnow]

Short article and video on a lithium operation in Chile.

Where Your Smartphone Juice Comes From
Thanks to its extraordinary terrain, Chile is sitting on the world’s largest deposits of lithium, the element that powers the modern world.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-09/where-your-smartphone-juice-comes-from

[nicibiene]

Of course it is an important question, if there would be enough ressources. I´m sure there aren´t. And the sources where the minerals come from are critical too. I just read about the "nice" history of companies that were overtaking the mineral wealth of Chile and Bolivia by supporting Pinochet and undermining the democracy in Bolivia. It´s just a shame-people there wouldn´t even have any positive effects from that booming lithium demand. 

We have at least to look for options to recycle the rare material the batteries are built from.  http://www.wiwo.de/technologie/green/tech/akku-recycling-forscher-gewinnen-lithium-aus-alt-batterien-und-erzgebirge-kristallen/13832436.html

I think there must be other storing technologies beside batteries. Making H2 by electrolys e.g. H2 could be "made" to CH4 using CO2 and CH4 could be stored and transported better than H2.
http://www.powertogas.info/

I think batteries are not the non plus ultra for the future. But they could be an important milestone to change our energy source to renewables. Beside that we have to reduce our demand. (but we couldn´t move all to warmer places-as magnamentis meant in another threat about heating with wood

[magnamentis]

@nicibiene
@sigmetnow

thanks for both yourgreat replies which mirror quite exactly my own thoughts and how i see things.
that now cleared and i fully agree that batteries at their current state can (will) help a lot to get the transition away from fossil fuels underway.

i just wanted to know about your views on that because mass use can make the best things poisonous. this BTW applies to every single aspect of nature, last but not least food and medication.

[jai mitchell]

Elon Musk says that the new gigafactory battery configuration uses 1/4th as much cobalt, that all of the other materials are in great abundance and that the recycle capability of these batteries is near 100%.  He says that this and other coming configurations will ensure that there is enough battery material readily available to supply all of the globe's needs for . . .ever?

[magnamentis]

Elon Musk says that the new gigafactory battery configuration uses 1/4th as much cobalt, that all of the other materials are in great abundance and that the recycle capability of these batteries is near 100%.  He says that this and other coming configurations will ensure that there is enough battery material readily available to supply all of the globe's needs for . . .ever?

my main focus has been on stuff like this recently:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element

at least the parts that are needed for batteries and other electronic components, including in wind power plants. perhaps anyone knows more about that and BTW china is currently the main supplier for many of those rare earths.

[meljay14]

We are building an off-grid straw bale house this year, and are looking at a new type of battery called the Zcell by an Australian company called Redflow. http://redflow.com/ It is zinc bromide based, rather than lithium, and doesn't lose capacity with time. It is also slightly fire retardant rather than combustible, which is important to us in a bushfire area.

It is quite big and heavy (over 200 kg) so not an option for people with restricted space, and it is NOT CHEAP, but we are thinking that we'd like to support a promising new technology in its early stages.

Does anyone here know anything about it? I think it sounds excellent, but am very much a lay-person in these areas.

[meljay14]

Oops, zinc bromine not zinc bromide.

[DrTskoul]

We are building an off-grid straw bale house this year, and are looking at a new type of battery called the Zcell by an Australian company called Redflow. http://redflow.com/ It is zinc bromide based, rather than lithium, and doesn't lose capacity with time. It is also slightly fire retardant rather than combustible, which is important to us in a bushfire area.

It is quite big and heavy (over 200 kg) so not an option for people with restricted space, and it is NOT CHEAP, but we are thinking that we'd like to support a promising new technology in its early stages.

Does anyone here know anything about it? I think it sounds excellent, but am very much a lay-person in these areas.

Drawbacks include:

The need to be fully discharged every few days to prevent zinc dendrites that can puncture the separator[2]
The need every 1-4 cycles to short the terminals across a low impedance shunt while running the electrolyte pump, to fully remove zinc from battery plates[2]
Low areal power (<0.2 W/cm2) during both charge and discharge which translates into a high cost of power.[3][4][5]

[DrTskoul]

Yes not cheap, but more importantly a complicated operating/regeneration cycle. Not a system for unattended operation - yet.  How about vanadium redox flow battery?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.greentechmedia.com/amp/article/unienergy-brings-next-gen-vanadium-flow-battery-to-commecial-scale

[meljay14]

Thanks for this, Dr Tskoul, lots to think about, and gives me some good questions to ask of the rep.

[Fairbanksnchill]

I love the idea of batteries. Where I live, the idea of storing a days solar energy in a battery isn't viable. It's been 4 months since direct light has hit my roof (which has two feet of snow on it now). I wrote this ironic letter to my friend to explain the complexity in a chemical battery. Without enough knowledge to question the viability of a home system, the technology to create methanol or ethanol from any energy source does currently exist, if only in laboratories.

All you need is a semiconductor photo voltaic third generation silicon / gallium cell and then figure out advanced electrical concepts like capacitance, electromotive force, and amperage to design the quantity of cells to produce effective electrical energy and then through advanced organic chemistry you can utilize an acidic catalyst for the Electrolysis of purified water to produce hydrogen and oxygen compounds and then simply use your skills in pneumatic and pressure regulation to capture and store the gasses to be combined with carbon dioxide that you got from the atmosphere using Ethanol-amine and an MIT created copper based extraction process to utilize the Princeton university created aluminium oxide nickle copper catalyst bed to condensate the gaseous precipitates to a collection container that's back pressure regulated and brass insulated to make it intrinsically safe from sparks because CH3OH burns without a visible flame.  Then you can simply use the ~16.6 kwh stored within the gallon of methanol that you have created to run your revolutionary and less than a decade old methanol fuel cell!

https://youtu.be/hAYYsnkKYS0?t=1h7m33s

[nicibiene]

I think batteries could be a part of the change. That change is not only a matter of climate, also a matter of personal freedom, of economical independence. Batteries come with the potential to get independent as a consumer from monopolized market prices. The fight is also global energy companies against small people.

Here in Germany all had been done to let only the small people pay for the costs of renewables. Energy market had been liberated, splitted into energy producers, grid providers, a stock market for traders, even metering point operators. A lot more of struggling interests and demanding profits was built by that. The lowest risks do have the traders. Industry had been freed from the EEG costs that are calculated between market prices and guaranteed prices for renewables. The cost are carried by small people. The energy producers that work with sluggish coal power plants are struggling with decay of market prices, I don' t think they will survive. The grid providers are splitted into 4 big ones and they are struggling with the demand to modernise the grid and the border of how much they could invoice to the small people. Both things could be candidates for the overtake by someone financial powerful, a seed for energetic monopols. 

In addition to that we have the surreal situation that renewables made energy stock prices falling (profits of traders are growing), but the selling companies are not obligated to let that pass through to the small people. As a costumer you pay for the difference between stockprices and guaranteed price for renewables and you have to pay the not sinking energy prices. There is also a strong movement of small people to get independent. Of course all is done by the splitted sectors on energy market to undermine that process, but it will come. All in one it is a sad, but willing, running battle, that costs so much energy and that slows the urgent demanding process of turn to renewables.

At the moment batteries give the only chance to built a counterweight against the monopolistic overtaking process on energy market. Food market is already overtaken and dominated by global monopols...energy will be next. And honestly I don't feel that comfortable with Musks billioniare powered movement of leading the future market of carproduction,  storage, solar and computertechnology...

[mati]

We are building an off-grid straw bale house this year, and are looking at a new type of battery called the Zcell by an Australian company called Redflow. http://redflow.com/ It is zinc bromide based, rather than lithium, and doesn't lose capacity with time. It is also slightly fire retardant rather than combustible, which is important to us in a bushfire area.

It is quite big and heavy (over 200 kg) so not an option for people with restricted space, and it is NOT CHEAP, but we are thinking that we'd like to support a promising new technology in its early stages.

Does anyone here know anything about it? I think it sounds excellent, but am very much a lay-person in these areas.

How about a salt water battery?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_water_battery

[Sigmetnow]

...
... And honestly I don't feel that comfortable with Musks billioniare powered movement of leading the future market of carproduction,  storage, solar and computertechnology...

Tesla is on the way to becoming a very large company, possibly one of the biggest, but it doesn't want to rule the world.   Elon Musk is simply going "all in" and modernizing a few sustainability industries that needed a "kick in the pants."

"Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy." 

The logistics of roofing, for example, were very inefficient -- heavy products, with poor distribution channels.  And why not make a roof that does more than protect your house -- it lowers your carbon footprint at the same time?  Other companies make solar roofs; the idea just needs some tweaking to become The Next Big Thing.

The first electric car was made almost two centuries ago!  But it took someone like Musk, willing to risk everything to prove there was an alternative to the fossil fuel path we decided to embrace.  He wants competition.  (See the mission statement above.) The award-winning Tesla cars, and 400,000 paid reservations for the affordable Model 3, were, without a doubt, a major force in getting traditionally gas-powered-car makers to finally acknowledge people would indeed buy electric cars, and so they grudgingly began making (or announced they’ll be making) products that for so long they claimed were laughable and nobody wanted.

And his interest in Artificial Intelligence is to assure it does not stay in the hands of a few, thus his "Open AI."

Besides, Musk hates being called a billionaire. He could have retired to an island somewhere long ago, but he loves what he is doing.  The only reason he continues to accumulate personal wealth, he says, is to assure his other goal, of making humanity multi-planetary, succeeds.  He wants to die on Mars (just not on impact ), so he won't be around forever.... 


I know these few words won't magically change your mind about Musk.  But I hope they help to ease your worries a bit.

[Sigmetnow]

Magnamentis @#324 re rare earth elements:

Re Tesla batteries:

Elon Musk: Battery uses no rare Earth metals. Main ingredient is nickel, which is what's used to coat cutlery, so very non-toxic.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/718121595101782016

[jai mitchell]

If Tesla was trying to rule the world of EV then they would not have made their patents public documents. 

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150217/06182930052/elon-musk-clarifies-that-teslas-patents-really-are-free-investor-absolutely-freaks-out.shtml

Elon Musk Clarifies That Tesla's Patents Really Are Free; Investor Absolutely Freaks Out

[nicibiene]

Believe me - I´m in a hard inner struggle what to think about Musk and his money giving compagnions. On the one hand I feel VERY attracted by his open shown idealism, his ideas and the intensity and speed he goes the way. But somehow it is that kind of offensive presented honesty and idealism that is hardly to believe.

The vision of a huge automatic factories, selfdriving cars, the will to create a right disruption of markets. There is a smell of some unhealthyness. It is hard to describe, but after I got totally fascinated I am also a little frightened where a domination could lead to. It all has the components of absolute control that could be abused too. It all depends on who is the owner of that companies, who has the financial power to influence the aims.

I have a husband in automotive industry and just read a very good and actual book of Dudenhöfer about the theme. Beside I do study the strategies of globalization and monopolization, reading a book of Nancy Klein. And that combination makes me also think in some critical ways...

If Tesla was trying to rule the world of EV then they would not have made their patents public documents. 

Elon Musk Clarifies That Tesla's Patents Really Are Free; Investor Absolutely Freaks Out

EV are in principle not that complicated to build - Musk started also by combinating some available components. The biggest thing of a Tesla would be its computer, sensors and that electronical stuff-he is surely not having the patents for, but his Silicon Valley friends.  I do really appreciate his way-but without some wealthy friends he never could start that way. And it will be a really fascinating thing to watch where it all would lead to.

I do actually plan a own private PV with storage-and I would prefer the new system of Kreisel batteries from Austria. Why should Musk take it all? There are more ideas, companies and countries that could take a piece of the cake too. And there would be enough left for Tesla. 

[Buddy]

Why should Musk take it all? There are more ideas, companies and countries that could take a piece of the cake too. And there would be enough left for Tesla. 

His idea is NOT for "world domination".  Quite the contrary.  His concern is for the world to GET OFF ITS BUTT AND MOVE FASTER towards using renewable power....AND....moving faster towards a world looking to move to OTHER PLANETS.  He understands.....that the end of earth....doesn't HAVE to be the end of mankind.  And he understands that if we don't get off of fossil fuels, we may not make it to another planet.  We will have "screwed the pooch".

If your husband is in the auto industry.....then he certainly knows that Musk has FORCED the automakers into electric cars.  And they are now moving quickly to make up for lost time to Tesla.  Anyone watching the US airline industry over the past 30 years.....understands that the airline companies moved WAY TOO SLOWLY to deal with the change in their industry brought on by Southwest Airlines.  I think the car industry wants to avoid the mistakes made by the airline industry.

And there will be ALL KINDS of improvements that we will likely see in the energy markets over just the next 3 - 10 years.....both in transportation as well as commercial/residential energy generation.  The pie is VERY BIG....and Musk certainly won't own it all.

[nicibiene]

@Buddy I´m basically not concerned about the person Musk himself. Not to be missunderstood. He IS a visionere-no question. And yes, he forces the car industry to awake form sleep.

But a Tesla with its computer is a thing that could force a kind of consumption that is not connected with the basic sense of a car. Tablet PCs and smartphones are a nice comparism. Android e.g. - if the device is too old it comes the day you will be disabled to get a new software version. It is out of maintenance. The device itself could still do its work - but it is not able to work without the software. It is the same that will happen to the cars. Will there be 15 year old cars in the future? Will the close connection of computer and car be substainable, would it make REAL sense? A car in my mind has to move people from A to B, dry, warm, comfortable. Not more.

Musk is not Tesla- Musk is human - he could be substituted. Tesla is a company, owned by changing investors. (My hushand worked at KUKA - THE german robotic firm, just overtaken by Chinese investors) And thats the thing I feel not comfortable about somehow. Driving computers could be perfect weapons, tools for an absolute monitoring. The car looses its native sense of freedom-that´s it.

As Jaron Lanier also has his doubts about Google & Co. 

But originally the thread should go about batteries. 

[magnamentis]

Why should Musk take it all? There are more ideas, companies and countries that could take a piece of the cake too. And there would be enough left for Tesla. 

His idea is NOT for "world domination".  Quite the contrary. 

i hope you're right but then there were others starting that way and loosing in while becoming big global players. just remember google's "don't be evil" and how they become more and more dominating and telling people how to user their devices with mostly pay services as the main driving reason to limit and restrict freedom of use. it's a long story, much TLTR here but just hinting.

have to mention that i'm and android developer for years and at the same time a mac user for close to 30 years (without iphone for good reason LOL )

[Sigmetnow]

Cue the phrase, "Getting the future we deserve."

Good or bad. 

[magnamentis]

Cue the phrase, "Getting the future we deserve."

Good or bad. 

true for mankind as a whole but not for the minority of individuals that try to live true ethics and are either overruled, overwhelmed and at times killed in the process :-)

[nicibiene]

Cue the phrase, "Getting the future we deserve."

Good or bad. 

[TerryM]

I'm leery re. the self driving cars now being touted. All computers seem hackable to some extent, and I'm unsure how I comfortable I'd be in a car that could suddenly be under the control of a 12 year old playing with his cell phone, a criminal wishing to bring his prey to a secluded area, or the local constabulary wanting an in person interview.
One of the attractions of driving has always been the sense of control I feel behind the wheel. I'm much more comfortable driving than being a passenger and insecurities about the possibility of my car being hacked would add to this discomfort.
Driving has always been a pleasurable experience. If self driving electric cars become all that is available I'm afraid I'd need to travel by motorcycle.
Terry

[meljay14]

Mati, thanks for the salt water battery suggestion. Lots more to think about!

[wehappyfew]

For Do It Yourselfers, Edison batteries - also called nickel-iron batteries - are a good alternative to lead-acid.

pros:
- literally never wear out, some individual Edison batteries have been in continuous use since they were invented in the 19th century without any loss of capacity
- much less toxic materials than lead acid or lithium-ion
- can be driven hard without harm, full depth of discharge is available, no harm from complete discharge
- cannot be damaged by overcharging like lead-acid or lithium-ion (but this makes even more H2, see cons)
- Potash electrolyte consumable is cheap and plentiful, and not as dangerous as sulfuric acid - no acid fumes
- no memory effect like lead-acid, NiCad, or NiMH.

Cons:
- More expensive up front than lead-acid
- must be very well vented as it makes hydrogen as it charges
- self-discharges, so not good for months of backup, better for daily or weekly cycling
- low energy density compared to lithium-ion, so stationary uses, or short range, frequent recharges like forklifts
- low power density, so charging and discharging rates are slow compared to capacity
- low round trip efficiency, you only get back about 65% of what you put in

[Sigmetnow]

I'm leery re. the self driving cars now being touted. All computers seem hackable to some extent, and I'm unsure how I comfortable I'd be in a car that could suddenly be under the control of a 12 year old playing with his cell phone, a criminal wishing to bring his prey to a secluded area, or the local constabulary wanting an in person interview.
One of the attractions of driving has always been the sense of control I feel behind the wheel. I'm much more comfortable driving than being a passenger and insecurities about the possibility of my car being hacked would add to this discomfort.
Driving has always been a pleasurable experience. If self driving electric cars become all that is available I'm afraid I'd need to travel by motorcycle.
Terry

Terry, at least in a Tesla, you have choices: 
1) don't pay for the autopilot capability for your car, or
2) if you share a car that has it, simply don't turn it on, or, you can turn that option completely off from the touchscreen.  (It is like cruise control:  it is not active until you turn it on, each time you drive, and if the environment is acceptable to the programming.)

Some companies like Google want to make autonomous cars that don't even have steering wheels or pedals, but Elon Musk once owned a McLaren sports car; he likes to drive himself, and wants Tesla drivers to have that option, too.   The exception might be the autonomous minibus he has planned for public transportation.  Will be interesting to see what safety protocols it includes.  Since he also owns an artificial intelligence computer company, it's fair to say he's given hackability a fair amount of study.*


It is true that some non-autonomous, non-electric, "everyday" cars have been hacked, too.  The auto industry must develop stronger safety protocols, now that cars are expected to be "connected."  Yet I think there will always be some simple cars without all the bells and whistles -- although you may have to look hard to find them!

Edit:  *Musk is a coder himself.  He sold a computer game at age 12, and made millions selling a program he wrote/ helped write that became "Paypal."

[Sigmetnow]

"Construction is underway for an on-site recycling facility that will safely reprocess all types of Tesla battery cells, modules, and packs, into various metal products for reuse in new cells."

Here is the link to the recent Tesla investor handout with Gigafactory 1 specs.

... The cell capacity represents more than the 2013 total global production of lithium-ion battery cells of all other manufacturers combined and supports the production of about 500,000 cars. Pack production capacity supports both our vehicle and energy product lines (Powerwall 2 & Powerpack 2)....

http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ABEA-4CW8X0/2564229359x0x923441/23F40B9D-D2B8-47C7-A77B-D07C5240FCFB/Tesla_Gigafactory1_Tour_Jan_2016_Handout_FINAL.pdf

Investor Whitney Tilson shorted Tesla’s stock from ~$35 to ~$205 from early 2013 to early 2014, an experience that he described as “traumatic” and something he lost a lot of money on.

He was recently tempted to try to bet against the company again, which is why he decided to come visit the Gigafactory and get a better look at what he would be betting against.

Tilson came out of the event impressed with Elon Musk and JB Straubel, and what Tesla has been doing at the Gigafactory in general. He has now given up the idea of shorting the stock and gave us the best look at the event through a letter he sent out to his investors.

Warning: poor audio quality in the article's embedded video.
https://electrek.co/2017/01/12/tesla-battery-cell-presentation-gigafactory/

[Sigmetnow]

VW suggests imminent plug-in and electric vehicle battery shortage

As consumers continue to buy more electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids worldwide, lithium-ion battery packs continue to drop in price while offering increasing energy density. So what could possibly be the problem? A global battery-pack shortage, that's what.

Volkswagen Group executive Thomas Sedran says his company may sell as many as 3 million electric vehicles a year within the next decade, and such an expansion, combined with bigger EV sales by other automakers, may spur a battery shortage, according to Automotive News Europe. Sedran's comments contrast with those of Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche, who said early last year that his company wouldn't invest in battery production because of the possibility of oversupply. ...

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/01/12/vw-suggests-plug-in-electric-vehicle-battery-shortage/

[Buddy]

Investor Whitney Tilson shorted Tesla’s stock from ~$35 to ~$205 from early 2013 to early 2014, an experience that he described as “traumatic” and something he lost a lot of money on.

LOL.  Yea....shorting from $35 to $205 would be more than a little painful.

For those of you that don't know.....a "short position" is a bet AGAINST A STOCK GOING UP IN PRICE.  If it goes UP....you lose money.  It is also using "borrowed money"....so there is a "cost" for keeping a short position on.  You only make money if the price of the stock GOES DOWN.

There were a LOT of people betting against Tesla for various reasons...and they have all been wrong SO FAR (and I believe they will continue to be wrong).