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Author Topic: But, but, but India...  (Read 17514 times)

AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2016, 09:59:48 PM »
India has recognized the problems they will face with climate change and has been building a number of dams to store water.

Dams on the Ganges in India are generally bad news for the even more desperate people in Bangladesh.  It sound like policy makers are just kicking the can down the road.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2016, 11:22:12 PM »
More like one group of people acting in their own self interest.

Like that hasn't happened before?


AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2016, 12:35:03 AM »
More like one group of people acting in their own self interest.

Like that hasn't happened before?

Which is precisely why we are in the climate change situation that we are currently in, and why it will likely be difficult to avoid large negative climate change impacts.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2016, 04:41:53 AM »
Sure it will be difficult.  The road will not be smooth and some missteps will occur.

We are in the climatic fix we're in because almost no one understood the gravity of what we were doing.  To a large extent we are still in the awaking phase and only entering the "let's not let this get out of hand" phase.  But the great thing is that we have the technology we need right now to get us off fossil fuels and those technologies have become affordable.  In fact, by switching to renewable energy and electric transportation we will spend much less for both our electricity and travel.

As awareness and concern grow we'll ramp up the transition off fossil fuels and, hopefully, dodge the big bullet.

Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2016, 01:18:31 PM »
EU, India outline climate and clean energy package
The European Union vowed to help India realise its clean energy aspirations at a bilateral summit in Brussels on Wednesday.

In a joint declaration, the major economies pledged to cooperate on integrating India’s electricity grid with large solar parks, support the development of smart grids and assist in the planning of its first offshore wind array.

http://www.climatechangenews.com/2016/03/30/eu-india-outline-climate-and-clean-energy-package/
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AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2016, 08:38:10 PM »
The linked Vox article is entitled: "The climate fight will be won or lost in India, in 8 charts", and indicates that unless the first world steps up and provides at least an addition $5.3 trillion in sustainable investments in India, Vietnam, and other SE Asian nations (well before 2040), then the Paris Pact goals are toast:

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/14/11919610/india-decarbonization-8-graphs

Extract: "… India, not China, is becoming the key to global decarbonization.
Most of the big emitters have gotten a handle on their electricity systems, meaning that they are on track to phase out coal and (somewhat later) natural gas. They’re not doing it fast enough, but at least they are on the right trajectory. That’s even true for China, where just a few years ago analysts were saying that coal would dominate forever. Now there’s a post-2020 moratorium on new coal plants.
India, however, is a different story. Its economy is growing quickly, and with it electricity demand. That means even with the audacious renewable energy goals Modi has laid out, coal consumption is going to triple in India by 2040, with 258 GW of new coal capacity coming online.
As a result of this new coal, BNEF says, "power sector emissions will still be 5 percent higher in 2040, as progress in the EU, US and China is offset by steep emissions growth in India and SE Asia.""
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AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2016, 05:20:41 PM »
Scribbler just posted the linked article entitled: "The Increasingly Dangerous Hothouse — Local Reports Show It Felt Like 160 F (71 C) in India on June 13th, 2016".  I agree with Scribbler that the impact of climate change on the 1.2 Billion Indians is a "pretty big deal".  Policy makers who think that what happens in India will stay in India, will likely soon find out that they were sadly mistaken:

https://robertscribbler.com/2016/06/21/the-increasingly-dangerous-hothouse-local-reports-show-it-felt-like-170-f-77-c-in-bhubaneswar-on-june-13th-2016/

Extract: "The climate change induced delay of India’s monsoon is a pretty big deal. Not only does it reduce the amount of moisture — necessary for the provision of life-giving crops for this country of 1.2 billion — provided by the annual rains, it also increases the potential for life threatening heatwave conditions. And according to local reports, some of the highest heat index values ever recorded on the face of the Earth were seen in Bhubaneswar, India during a period of record heat and high humidity as the Asian Monsoon struggled to advance."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2016, 05:48:01 PM »
Climate change is already leading to an abrupt increase in murder and violence in India:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-water-violence-idUSKCN0ZF0IW

Extract: "Murders, violence on rise as parched central India battles for water."

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2016, 07:40:38 PM »
How India's 'smart villages' are centralising solar power
India's green energy sector has a tendency to "sell and run" - high-end equipment is installed, but a lack of maintenance support for remote villages means systems often fall into disrepair, he adds.

So Mr Das decided to create a smart grid technology that allows a village's entire electrical infrastructure to be monitored remotely.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36681112
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Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2016, 02:07:14 AM »
‘Solar Zones’ policy announced by India to spur large-scale solar projects
India has been in the news, as we’ve seen, lately with their admirable efforts to speed up their country’s transition to more sustainable energy sources. We have already seen India announce its plan for all their cars to be electric by the year 2030, and more recently, we saw the country’s transport minister offer up its land for Tesla. Fast forward to today, as reported by Planetsave, India has now publicized their initiative to “identify and designate ‘solar zones'” in the country.

The Ministry of New and Renewable Energy states in the beginning of their ten-page document that they seek to have a total of 10 ‘solar zones’ with each of them having around 10,000 hectares of either government or private land. They continue on to state their main objective for the program:

The scheme aims to provide a huge impetus to solar energy generation by acting as a flagship demonstration facility to encourage project developers and investors, thereby helping the country in achieving its target of 100,000 MW by 2022. The solar zones will enable the States to bring in significant investment from project developers, meet its Solar Renewable Purchase Obligation (RPO) mandate and provide employment opportunities to local population. The State will also reduce its carbon footprint by avoiding emissions equivalent to the solar zone’s installed capacity and generation. Further, the State will also avoid procuring expensive fossil fuels to power conventional power plants.

http://electrek.co/2016/07/25/solar-zones-policy-announced-by-india-to-spur-large-scale-solar-projects/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2016, 06:43:23 PM »
Railways aims to significantly reduce carbon footprints
NEW DELHI: Indian Railways, the largest energy consumer in the country, has set a target of harnessing 1,000 MW of solar energy and 15 MW of wind energy in the next four years as part of efforts to reduce its carbon footprint.

"We have undertaken steps to increase the use of clean energy to reduce emissions and in this regard we have set a target of harnessing 1,000 MW of solar and 150 MW of wind energy by 2020," said Railway Executive Director Sudhir Garg at the release of a report on 'Decarbonisation Indian Railways' here today.

The Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations and the Climate Policy Initiative in their reports have identified potential pathways to decarbonise the Railways by 2030.

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Railways-aims-to-significantly-reduce-carbon-footprints/articleshow/53338488.cms
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AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2016, 05:59:34 PM »
India now has an electrical energy surplus; which it has primarily achieved by building more coal-fired power plants:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/india-achieves-historical-first-ever-surplus-of-power/

Extract: "For the first time since India’s independence in 1947, the country now has a power surplus. This is a remarkable achievement as India was just a few years ago grappling with rampant power deficits and outages. The surplus comes from increased capacity (mostly coal) additions rather than energy efficiency improvements, but with Indian cities accounting for six out of the top 10 worst polluted cities in the world, progress is not without complications.

India’s progress on achieving a power surplus is movement forward by one important metric, but unless it expands electrification and reduces pollution (both local and global) it will be a pyrrhic victory."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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sidd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2016, 07:24:38 PM »
A "surplus of electrical power" is a terrible term to use when 300 million souls have no access to electricity in India

AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2016, 07:19:41 PM »
India is the key to a potential timely agreement on HFC, as discussed in the linked article:

http://in.reuters.com/article/climatechange-hfcs-idINKCN1290CO

Extract: "India will face pressure to speed up its plans for cutting greenhouse gases used in refrigerators, air conditioning and aerosols when governments meet this week to hammer out what would be a third key deal to limit climate change in a month.
About 150 nations meet in Rwanda, from Oct. 10-14 to try to agree a phase down of factory-made hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) gases. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry will be among those attending.
A quick phase-down of HFCs could be a big contribution to slow climate change, avoiding perhaps 0.5 degree Celsius (0.9 Fahrenheit) of a projected rise in average temperatures by 2100, scientists say.
But India wants a peak in poor nations' rising emissions only in 2031, to give industries time to adapt. More than 100 other nations including the United States, the European Union and African states, favour a peak in 2021.
"It really does matter how early the agreement kicks in," said Jake Schmidt, of the U.S. Natural Resources Defense Council, which reckons India's proposal would add the equivalent of almost a year of global carbon emissions to the atmosphere.
"We must get enough time before the phasing out period starts. We are very clear," Indian Environment Minister Anil Madhav Dave said on Oct. 1, according to the Times of India.
Use of HFCs, which can be 10,000 times more powerful than carbon dioxide as greenhouse gases, is already declining in many rich nations."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2016, 02:08:05 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "New Delhi Crippled by Pollution, Forcing Closure of Schools and Power Plants".  It looks like New Delhi is experiencing the air pollution problems that Beijing experienced not too long ago:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/new-delhi-crippled-pollution-forcing-closure-schools-power-plants-n678601

Extract: "India's capital announced a slew of measures Sunday to combat the crippling air pollution that has engulfed the city, including closing down schools, halting construction and ordering that all roads be doused with water to settle dust.

New Delhi, one of the world's dirtiest cities, saw levels of PM2.5 — tiny particulate matter that can clog lungs — soar to over 900 micrograms per cubic meter on Saturday. That's more than 90 times the level considered safe by the World Health Organization and 15 times the Indian government's norms."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2016, 05:35:11 PM »
Some of the new coal plants will replace old, worse-polluting ones.

India to halt building new coal plants in 2022
Draft government plan finds no need for new coal stations beyond those already under construction, calls for massive renewable energy push
At the same time, the report aims to add 100GW of solar and wind. These renewable energy additions would more than double India’s clean energy capacity.

This would put India on course to far exceed its pledges to the Paris agreement, said Siddharth Singh, associate fellow at The Energy and Resources Institute (TERI) in New Delhi.

Narendra Modi’s government has promised to get 40% of  its electricity from non-fossil sources (renewable and nuclear) by 2030, with finance and technology sharing from wealthier countries.

The CEA proposal would mean the non-fossil share would increase to 53% as early as 2027, up from 31% today, without relying on international support.
http://www.climatechangenews.com/2016/12/16/india-to-halt-building-new-coal-plants-in-2022/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2017, 03:35:10 PM »
In Rural India, Solar-Powered Microgrids Show Mixed Success
As India looks to bring electricity to the quarter of its population still without it, nonprofit groups are increasingly turning to solar microgrids to provide power to the nation’s villages. But the initiatives so far have faced major challenges.
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/in_rural_india_solar-powered_microgrids_show_mixed_success/2948/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2017, 09:51:34 PM »
India’s solar capacity to double in 2017
In 2017, India’s solar capacity is projected to double to 18 GW, with 14.2 GW of solar projects currently under development and tenders for approximately 6.3 GW are yet to be auctioned.

India’s solar capacity is set to double as large projects are commissioned, despite the short-term challenges of power limitation and weak tendering in certain states, according to sector expert and power producers.
http://www.climateactionprogramme.org/news/indias_solar_capacity_to_double_in_2017
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Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #68 on: February 27, 2017, 12:22:44 AM »
India’s polluted air now kills 1.1 million people per year
...India has also set a lofty goal for its transition to renewable energy, with plans to obtain around 60 percent of the country’s electricity from non-fossil fuel sources by 2027. That would put the country on track to beat its commitments made during the Paris climate conference in 2015 years ahead of schedule. As the world’s fourth-largest emitter of greenhouse gases, that would be a big win for climate — but it would also help cut down on the air pollution and particulate matter plaguing Indian cities. Over the past year, India has received over $20 million in investments aimed at building out the country’s solar capacity in order to meet the country’s growing demand for electricity; currently, some 240 million people in India lack access to electricity, meaning they often turn to polluting sources like wood and animal dung. A Delhi-based research group also suggested earlier this week that if the cost of renewable energy continues to decline at its current rate, India could be completely coal-free by 2050....
https://thinkprogress.org/air-pollution-deaths-china-india-report-7b50ca86c3b2
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AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2017, 06:19:02 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Modi's BJP Party Wins Heart of India Voters".  It is my opinion that the win by Modi's BJP party can be seen as an extension of the worldwide alt-right populist movement to 'purportedly" provide more jobs/wealth to the people; even at the expense of the environment.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/12/519897399/modi-s-bjp-party-wins-heart-of-india-voters

Extract: "Young Indians want a more prosperous country in their lifetime and appear to have seized on Prime Minister Narendra Modi to deliver it."

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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James Lovejoy

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2017, 05:29:08 PM »
Modi may have some characteristics of the alt-right, but he isn't a captive of ff like some.

His development goals include installing 175 GW of renewables by 2022, and past policies included providing LEDs to the people.

Some of his views may be problematic, and I hope that those aren't implemented.  But though he may not be a green warrior, he is agressively pushing clean energy.


rboyd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2017, 09:42:27 PM »
India has massively overbuilt its coal-fired electricity generating capacity in the past five years, and together with the 50GW additions from 2017-2022 will have doubled its coal-fired capacity in 10 years - to 249GW (plus 30GW natural gas capacity). This is a huge amount of brand-new capacity that can have very high utilization rates (much higher than wind and solar), and financial pressure for higher utilization levels.

Increases in renewables will be more than offset by increases in electricity demand, with the result that India's emissions will continue to rise through 2027. The capacity mix will be substantially altered by then, down to 44% from fossil fuels, plus 11% from hydro and 43% from other renewables, plus 2% from nuclear. Capacity * Utilization = output, and with the fossil fuel plants capable of much higher levels of utilization quite possibly 60%+ of output could still be from fossil fuels.

India's commitment to a huge buildout of renewables is commendable, but the logic of continued rapid economic growth driving rapid growth in electricity demand that more than offsets renewable growth is the reality that faces all the optimistic prognostications.

I gave up a long time ago relying on a lot of the climate change sites to not positively spin everything, so ended actually reading the underlying policy documents.

Government of India (2016), Draft National Energy Plan, Government of India. Accessible at http://www.cea.nic.in/reports/committee/nep/nep_dec.pdf

Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2017, 03:41:34 PM »
750 Megawatt Solar Project In India Will Receive Loan At 0.25% From World Bank
The solar power project that has taken the Indian market by storm is set to receive debt funding at perhaps the cheapest possible rates.

Rewa solar power park will receive debt finance at just 0.25% from the World Bank. A few weeks back, a competitive auction for the 750 megawatt (MW) solar power park in Rewa, Madhya Pradesh, yielded the lowest-ever tariff for a solar power project in India. The contract for development of the solar park has been awarded to three companies that will set up 250 megawatts of capacity each....
https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/22/750-megawatt-solar-project-india-will-receive-loan-0-25-world-bank/


Electrek says:
This is just below the going rate for banks that borrow directly from the United States (or really rich people who have hard collateral). The World Bank does have political reasons for giving a loan like this and the loan is probably backed by India. Nonetheless, big names like this giving big money like this are important – for one, that one group is doing it means others will soon follow. And that means 1GW solar power plants will get built a lot more often.
https://electrek.co/2017/03/23/electrek-green-energy-brief-worldbank-loan-at-0-25-for-750mw-trump-says-no-to-carbon-tax-more/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2017, 10:35:24 PM »
Local opposition and central government pivots have stopped the construction of many coal plants in India
... Of the 16 giant plants that India proposed, just two Ultra Mega Power Projects were built — a 4,000-megawatt station in Gujarat and a second in Madhya Pradesh. Both are hindered by severe operating and financial stresses, along with powerful civic opposition. Last summer, due to lack of interest by developers, the government announced it was cancelling UMPP installations in Chhattisgarh, Karnataka, Maharashtra and Odisha. The Cheyyur plant never attracted a committed builder.
...
By July 2014, though, when the study was made public, the pressure and urgency for building mega power projects was visibly deflating. The cost for completing UMPP plants had more than doubled, according to government figures. Prime Minister Modi, and Piyush Goyal, India’s energy minister, announced striking policy shifts to pivot India’s electricity sector to renewable energy sources from more expensive and polluting fossil fuels, a sizable share of which had to be imported. Moreover, the equipment to harvest wind and solar could be made in India.
...
In December 2016, India released a draft national energy plan that set a target of generating nearly 60 percent of the country’s electricity, around 275 gigawatts, from wind, solar, biomass, and small hydropower plants by 2027. India currently relies on coal for about 70 percent of its electricity. Modi pledged to “achieve energy security for India based on clean fuels.”

The policy changes are having their desired effects. The Central Electric Authority declared that India does not need to start construction of any new coal-fired generating plants for at least the next decade.

Energy Minister Goyal, who is intensely interested in closing a drain on India’s balance of trade and limiting climate emissions, also is a powerful influence. He has vowed to halt coal imports by the end of the decade. Coal imports, which reached an average of 18 million metric tons monthly in 2014, fell to 11.6 million metric tons a month from March to May, 2016. In an address to a meeting of energy officials shortly after the December energy plan was made public, Minister Goyal declared: “We have to look at a world beyond fossil fuels.”
http://www.circleofblue.org/2017/world/chased-drought-rising-costs-clean-technology-india-pivots-coal-fired-power/
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sidd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2017, 01:26:04 AM »
Heeheehee. What Goyal's statement tells me is that Adnani has fallen out of favor in New Delhi, and it will be a cold day in hell before he sells any australian coal in india. Poor, dumb bastard. Mark down Adnani Group debt as a short.

AbruptSLR

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2017, 04:15:50 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “Soaring beyond 100: Early heat wave that bakes India is a sign of what’s to come”, & it indicates that India could act like a canary in a coal mine to show the rest of the world the coming impacts of climate change.

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/15/soaring-beyond-100-early-heat-wave-that-bakes-india-is-a-sign-of-what-will-to-come_partner/

Extract: “Temperatures across northern India, including the capital New Delhi, are set to soar well above 100°F (37.8°C) through the weekend and into next week thanks to a pre-monsoon heat wave that has set in somewhat earlier than normal.

Such heat waves are expected to become both more common and more intense as the world warms from the continued buildup of heat-trapping greenhouse gases, in India and elsewhere, posing a threat to public health. Studies have suggested that India will be a particular hotspot for populations stressed by the combination of extreme heat and humidity.”
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rboyd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2017, 02:48:30 AM »
India has launched an impressive renewable energies program, but its coal consumption will continue to grow in the years ahead. This illustrates the difficulty of launching an energy transition when economic growth, demographic pressure and the emergence of a middle class make all forms of energy necessary.

"With 1.3 billion inhabitants, India is the world's second most populous country, after China. In less than seven years, it should overtake its Asian neighbor and see its population rise to 1.5 billion by around 2030. In 2035, India aims to be one of the world's top five economies, with major development in its middle classes. This demographic and economic expansion means that the Indian sub-continent has a growing need for energy. Its energy consumption has doubled since 1990, making it the world's third-largest consumer, after China and the United States. Of course, average per capita energy consumption remains very low."

"While demand for coal is rising in India, it is stabilizing in China where consumption levels in 2021 should be below those of 2013. India's difficulty in following China's example is due to a much higher birth rate and rapid economic growth that it justifiably refuses to curb. According to Indian national statistics, between March 2015 and March 2016 growth in GDP was 7.6%, the highest rate worldwide."

"As in China, the new Indian willingness is strengthened by the problems of urban pollution, resulting from surrounding coal-fired power plants, an exponential increase in vehicles running on fuels not subject to European standards and the lack of truck traffic regulations. Pollution has reached alarming levels in the capital New Delhi where the level of fine particles is the world's highest according to the World Health Organization (WHO)."

http://www.planete-energies.com/en/medias/close/india-and-coal-difficult-energy-transition-developing-countries


Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2017, 03:52:44 AM »
IIRC, India has overbuilt and has coal plants that they don't need.

India could use a much larger amount of electricity but they are grid limited.  The grid they have is pretty funky and there are many places the grid does not reach.

And upon checking...

More surprisingly, India’s latest National Electricity Plan showed no need for further plants beyond those already under construction. Despite huge latent demand, with around one in three Indians off the power grid, some stations have been idling. Affordability and a lack of network infrastructure remain barriers to access – and financiers are getting cold feet.

http://www.climatechangenews.com/2017/03/22/coal-power-pipeline-shrinks-dramatically-boon-climate/



I'd suggest we take any predictions about increasing coal (and nuclear) plant installations with a grain of salt at this time.  I don't think the people doing the predictions fully understand what really cheap wind, solar and storage are going to do to "What shall we build?" decisions.
---

I think India really needs to do some wind mapping at 140 meter hub heights.  They don't have a lot of inland wind at 80 meters.  Neither did the US Southeast.  But we stuck the anemometers up another 60 meters and the picture greatly changed.

rboyd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2017, 05:18:36 AM »
India has all the extra coal capacity they need to meet their extra coal usage needs in the next few years. Agreed that there will not be any new builds, but that does not mean that there will not be any increase in the usage of coal.

Fixed now, thanks Bob.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 06:00:52 AM by rboyd »

Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2017, 05:42:25 AM »
Agreed that there will not be any new builds, but that does not mean that there will be any increase in the usage of coal.

It that what you meant to write?

sidd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2017, 05:54:56 AM »

Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2017, 06:35:37 AM »
India is pretty much the only country among the larger users that has continued to increase consumption through 2015.  But there are signs that coal consumption increases might be plateauing.

For all the coal industry continues to point to India as a source of growth for thermal coal, the reports out of India show that far from growth, India is looking to rationalize and modernize its coal fired power fleet in the face of increasing water stress and particulate pollution. Having doubled the coal cess (sic) in the latest budget, in May 2016 India announced plans to close 37 GW of coal fired power capacity that has reached the end of its useful life and where upgrades are not commercially viable.

http://ieefa.org/coal-decline-steepens-2016-2/



Prime Minister Modi is a major supporter of solar.  He made his name largely by overseeing some massively large solar farms in Gujarat where he was head of the state government before he came to national office.

And as India's economy improves there is more and more call to clean up the air.   

Finally there's the coal/water problem.  India can find better things to do with massive amounts of water other than cleaning coal and turning it to steam.

rboyd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2017, 07:56:39 PM »
I wonder if the intensifying droughts will have an impact here, due to water shortages and reduced efficiency of the coal-fired stations (warmer water will reduce the cooling efficiency).


TerryM

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2017, 10:31:38 PM »
I wonder if the intensifying droughts will have an impact here, due to water shortages and reduced efficiency of the coal-fired stations (warmer water will reduce the cooling efficiency).
I would guess that phase change between water/water vapor is what is utilized for cooling. If so the initial temperature of the water matters very little. The amount of water available to boil off should be the determining factor.


Terry

rboyd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2017, 11:44:38 PM »
Thanks Terry, so the big variables will be drought and flooding (I still remember the images of a nuclear power plant next to the Missouri River surrounded by water in 2011).

Given that the Indian rivers may get swollen as upstream glaciers melt out, and have sudden large discharges as lake walls collapse, that could be a problem - for any thermal power plant. The timeframe may be decades away though. So in the near-term, its droughts and seems to be a reality already - from last year:

"Coal power plants in eastern, central and southern India have had to shut down due to a lack of water for cooling. Some shutdowns have been temporary, for a few days or weeks, but others have been much more serious, lasting months ... As of June 1, 2016, over 4GW of coal remained shut due to a lack of cooling water."

http://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2016/06/09/drought-costs-india-coal-companies-350-million/

That nuclear power station, surrounded by the river

Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2017, 11:50:02 PM »
I wonder if the intensifying droughts will have an impact here, due to water shortages and reduced efficiency of the coal-fired stations (warmer water will reduce the cooling efficiency).

Water use by coal plants (and coal cleaning) is a topic of discussion both in India and China.  Both countries are in need of more water and spend a huge amount on coal (and nuclear).

This is likely to be a factor going forward.  With much more affordable renewables becoming available I suspect there's going to be a lot more critical analysis given to thermal plants.  Water use (and air pollution for coal) will get line item inclusion in the decision making process.  Both countries are getting significant pushback from their citizens over coal pollution and both governments realize the consequences of large scale water shortages.

rboyd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #86 on: April 25, 2017, 05:10:34 AM »
Natural Gas plants, being thermal, would have the same problem?

Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2017, 05:21:46 AM »
Combined cycle plants which have both a turbine and a steam generator.  The waste heat from the turbine is used to boil water into steam.

Gas peakers are turbine only.  And mostly used for short term demand as they are about 40% less efficient than CCNG plants.  But it takes around three hours for the steam portion of a CCNG to get hot enough to generate electricity.

Since a larger portion of the electricity from a CCNG plant comes from steam I would guess that they use something less than half as much water as a coal or nuclear plant per MWh. 

And coal uses a lot of water in cleaning/processing the coal before it's used.

rboyd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2017, 06:19:57 AM »
Increasing drought could then have very serious issues for electricity provision. Fossil fuel and nuclear generation may be greatly limited, and hydroelectricity will also be limited (as in Brazil recently).

sidd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2017, 07:05:55 AM »
I posted here about the effects of drought on one of the larger coal plants in the world, 2+GW shutdown due to drought in West Bengal last year

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,846.msg72549.html#msg72549

sidd

Hefaistos

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #90 on: May 10, 2017, 07:17:56 PM »
Solar power is already cheaper than FF alternatives in India - prices have fallen to 2.62 rupees per kilowatt hour, i..e  4 cents  (USD). Wholesale auction price. Last year’s previous record lowest bid was 4.34 rupees per kWh so it's a very dramatic fall in prices.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/10/indian-solar-power-prices-hit-record-low-undercutting-fossil-fuels

Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #91 on: May 10, 2017, 11:06:43 PM »
In India the Gujarat government has dropped a proposed 4000 megawatt (MW) coal plant, preferring to add new renewable energy capacity instead.

The results of the latest solar power auction in India underscore the speed of the shift: the winning bid was four US cents a kilowatt hour, on par with existing coal-fired generation. Even new coal plants in India are facing big problems. The leading Indian ratings agency, IRR, has warned falling utilisation rates at over 45,000 MW of coal plants are likely to result in loan defaults by private power utilities.


http://mailchi.mp/bfd0db83df87/coalwire-weekly-news-bulletin?e=2bbfae5944

Looks like the tide is turning against coal in India.  India is likely to be aggressive in its move away from coal due to public pressure over poor air quality.  Add in a strong move to EVs and India is likely to hit personal CO2 peak before long.

Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2017, 07:37:16 AM »
Though India had been expected to be the site of a coal boom, plans for new coal construction totaling nearly 14 GW have been cancelled so far this month.

Analyst Tim Buckley of the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis pegged the coal cancellations on record-low solar tariffs of three cents per KW/hr, The Independent reported. Buckley said as of January last year energy analysts predicted such a low price could never be achieved.
That price is lower than the current wholesale coal power price of four cents per KW/hr.

“For the first time solar is cheaper than coal in India and the implications this has for transforming global energy markets is profound,” Buckley said.

“Measures taken by the Indian Government to improve energy efficiency coupled with ambitious renewable energy targets and the plummeting cost of solar has had an impact on existing as well as proposed coal fired power plants, rendering an increasing number as financially unviable. India’s solar tariffs have literally been free falling in recent months.”

http://www.power-eng.com/articles/2017/05/india-cancels-plans-for-14-gw-of-coal-due-to-cheap-solar.html


Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2017, 12:58:23 AM »
Cross-posted from Cars thread:

India will sell only electric cars within the next 13 years
Every car sold in India from 2030 will be electric, under new government plans that have delighted environmentalists and dismayed the oil industry.

It’s hoped that by ridding India’s roads of petrol and diesel cars in the years ahead, the country will be able to reduce the harmful levels of air pollution that contribute to a staggering 1.2 million deaths per year.

India’s booming economy has seen it become the world’s third-largest oil importer, shelling out $150 billion annually for the resource – so a switch to electric-powered vehicles would put a sizable dent in demand for oil. It’s been calculated that the revolutionary move would save the country $60 billion in energy costs by 2030, while also reducing running costs for millions of Indian car owners.
...
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/05/india-electric-car-sales-only-2030/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2017, 01:08:49 AM »
India will sell only electric cars within the next 13 years

That's going to drive the EV market.  India's economy is creating many more middle class people who want to own a car.

BTW, I just found out that Bangladesh's economy has been growing like gangbusters for the last few years.  Largely due to garment manufacturing which is bringing in needed capital.

India and Bangladesh really need battery powered autorickshaws. 

rboyd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2017, 12:02:41 AM »
India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

"“Modi’s constituency is the middle class, and the middle class in Indian cities is choking on pollution,” Mr. Pant said. “Modi knows climate change is good politics. Climate change makes sense to Modi because he believes it as it is good economics and politics.”

Two major economic factors lie at the heart of India’s move away from coal. The first is that the country’s growth rate, while faster than that of most major economies, slipped to 6.1 percent for the most recent quarter, down from 7 percent in the previous quarter. And much of that growth has come in service industries rather than in power-hungry manufacturing.

Equally important is the startling drop in the price of renewable energy sources. Many energy experts say renewables are poised to become a less expensive alternative to coal within the next decade."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/world/asia/india-coal-green-energy-climate.html?_r=0

Bob Wallace

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #96 on: June 05, 2017, 01:06:57 AM »
Where are wind and solar more expensive than new coal?

Tor Bejnar

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #97 on: June 11, 2017, 08:02:36 PM »
cross post from "Coal" thread:
It seems clear that money does not make a person smart.  :-\

An Indian billionaire is forging ahead with a massive coal mine in Australia that activists say will be a disaster for the environment.
Gautam Adani said Tuesday that he had given the "green light" to his firm's $12 billion coal project in Australia's northeastern Queensland state.

"This is the largest single investment by an Indian corporation in Australia, and I believe others will follow with investments and trade deals," Adani said in a statement.

The Adani Group is also building a 240-mile railway line and an airstrip at the mine, which it says will create at least 10,000 new jobs.

Environmental groups and many politicians are bitterly opposed to the project, saying it will lead to the destruction of the environment. Greenpeace Australia described it as a "death sentence" for the Great Barrier Reef.

"The people of Australia have overwhelmingly rejected this toxic project," Greenpeace campaigner Nikola Casule said in a statement on Tuesday. "The age of coal is dead and we need real leadership to ensure a just transition away from fossil fuels."

India, where Adani is planning to ship most of the Queensland coal, is trying to make that transition despite still relying on coal for 60% of its power. The Indian government is targeting a tenfold increase in solar energy capacity by 2022, and solar power is now cheaper than electricity from coal fired power stations.

"It doesn't make sense to be planning huge long-term investments in coal when we have surplus power production and rapidly falling cost of renewable power," Vinay Rustagi, managing director of energy consultancy Bridge to India, told CNNMoney. "It is hard to see any merit in this news from an Indian perspective."

Adani doesn't see it that way. He says the project will relieve "energy poverty in India," where 300 million people still aren't connected to the electricity grid....
http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/06/news/economy/coal-mine-australia-india-adani/index.html
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

rboyd

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2017, 07:26:23 PM »

Sigmetnow

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Re: But, but, but India...
« Reply #99 on: June 15, 2017, 04:04:48 AM »
Tesla in active discussion with Indian government over sales and local manufacturing
Elon Musk confirmed via Twitter Wednesday that Tesla is in active discussions with the Indian government over the possibility of entering the local market with sales and manufacturing. When asked by one of his 9 million plus Twitter followers on whether Tesla’s plan to enter the Indian market has been postponed, Musk replied “In discussions with the government of India requesting temporary relief on import penalties/restrictions until a local factory is built”.

Tesla is in negotiations with Indian officials to work out a deal that would allow the manufacturer to bring its vehicles into the country without facing the steep penalties and restrictions that are currently levied on imports. Indian regulations currently impose heavy import duties on vehicles manufactured out of country to ensure locally produced vehicles can compete in the market....
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-active-discussions-indian-government-sales-local-manufacturing/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.