Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask  (Read 1031964 times)

Darvince

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 318
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 31
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #700 on: January 12, 2017, 03:25:14 AM »
that would be an example + the link to calculate other values:

http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/

If you want a website to calculate any value of sea level rise (keep in mind from ice alone the highest we can expect is about 75 meters, and if the entire water column globally reached 20C then we could add another 20 meters on top of that, for a total of 95 meters in the worst case scenario).

http://www.heywhatsthat.com/layers.html

Greenland fully melting out should be about 7 meters, although I would expect an ice-free West Antarctica long before an ice-free Greenland because of WAIS's lack of large mountains along its rim...

johnm33

  • Guest
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #701 on: January 12, 2017, 11:05:53 AM »
"Have these always been normal for this time of year, and as frequent and plentiful as these are currently?"
That area of the Atlantic is notorious for giant waves. I suspect the bathymetry has a hand in it. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/jpg_images/topo4.jpg
One of my own, with such a massive low in the Arctic how much water is going to be drawn in from surrounding oceans?
[edit ans] http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Pressure-And-Tides
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 12:31:00 PM by johnm33 »

magnamentis

  • Guest
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #702 on: January 13, 2017, 06:59:46 PM »
that would be an example + the link to calculate other values:

http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/

If you want a website to calculate any value of sea level rise (keep in mind from ice alone the highest we can expect is about 75 meters, and if the entire water column globally reached 20C then we could add another 20 meters on top of that, for a total of 95 meters in the worst case scenario).

http://www.heywhatsthat.com/layers.html

Greenland fully melting out should be about 7 meters, although I would expect an ice-free West Antarctica long before an ice-free Greenland because of WAIS's lack of large mountains along its rim...

sincere thanks for that link, i found plenty but didn't have time to find the best which that one is as far as i can see. very much appreciated and bookmarked :-)

nice weekend @all

shmengie

  • New ice
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #703 on: January 15, 2017, 05:11:09 AM »
OMG, I gotta think a bout stupid questions, why?

Trash to steam used to be a "thing".  I can remember thinking it wasn't necessarily a bad idea.  I don't remember it becoming a non-thing.  As best I can recall, after recycling in the US became popular, I haven't heard about it.

I can't help, but believe, it was a CO₂ nightmare.  Guess we're not entirely stupid.

Is that what happened to trash-to-steam?  Bad idea and we got smart enough to end the habbit?
Professor Trump, who'd thought it was that complicated?

logicmanPatrick

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
    • The Chatter Box
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #704 on: January 15, 2017, 06:26:01 AM »
shmengie: it's fairly normal now to use trash to make electricity, so it doesn't get much attention in blogs and media.  That said, the link below is from August 2016, so some people are still paying attention.  ;D

https://thinkprogress.org/burning-trash-to-create-energy-the-complicated-journey-to-zero-waste-9d6576ad55fd#.k0zmuqmjp
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

Hefaistos

  • Guest
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #705 on: January 15, 2017, 10:38:02 AM »
Thanks for the link to that article. It's very extensive regarding environmental impact of trash burning facilities. But it doesn't even mention emissions of carbon dioxide, although more than 30% of trash is organic matter.
Interestingly, landfills are known emitters of methane, but burning trash supposedly puts a lot of CO2 directly into the atmosphere.
Meanwhile, global population grows from 7.5 billion to 10+ billion already 2050, creating ever more trash.

Shared Humanity

  • Guest
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #706 on: January 15, 2017, 04:30:49 PM »
When looking at trash, its impact on the local environment (landfills etc.) and global (CH4 and CO2 emissions) the only real solution is source reduction. We must reduce the amount of trash we produce.

RoxTheGeologist

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 625
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 188
  • Likes Given: 149
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #707 on: January 15, 2017, 07:19:30 PM »

There is a company in California that is using the locally collected trash in a biodigester, making methane and using it to power the trash trucks - this is a much better use than incinerating as you don't have to deal with the other nasty pollutants that come from burning household waste.

I really like this model as the Carbon is kept local. Your waste powers the trucks that pick up your trash.


On a negative side, the biowaste facilities in California will probably stop making energy from biomass as they have to pay Cap and Trade Carbon taxes (for some obscure reason)

Tigertown

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1678
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #708 on: January 15, 2017, 07:31:51 PM »
Help, please! How do you get to the Arctic forecast on Tropical Tidbits, as I can't find it anywhere? Maybe I have an old outdated link.
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1455
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 210
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #709 on: January 15, 2017, 07:34:40 PM »
Help, please! How do you get to the Arctic forecast on Tropical Tidbits, as I can't find it anywhere? Maybe I have an old outdated link.

http://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/?model=gfs&region=nhem&pkg=mslp_pcpn_frzn&runtime=2017011512&fh=6


Tigertown

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1678
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #710 on: January 15, 2017, 07:39:49 PM »
Thanks. I will bookmark it now.
Do they have only the GFS for the Arctic or do they also have the ECMWF?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 07:47:46 PM by Tigertown »
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9471
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1333
  • Likes Given: 617
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #711 on: January 15, 2017, 07:57:06 PM »
Go to 'Forecast Models'. When you click 'Global', you can choose what forecast model you want to use. Then, below the map, click 'Regions', and there you can choose 'Northern Hemisphere'.

That's how I do it.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1455
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 210
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #712 on: January 15, 2017, 08:08:02 PM »
Go to 'Forecast Models'. When you click 'Global', you can choose what forecast model you want to use. Then, below the map, click 'Regions', and there you can choose 'Northern Hemisphere'.

That's how I do it.

Exactly...I should have spent a few more seconds describing  ::)

Tigertown

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1678
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #713 on: January 15, 2017, 08:11:39 PM »
Got it now. I have a feeling it's going to bear watching in the near future.
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

shmengie

  • New ice
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #714 on: January 19, 2017, 04:34:24 AM »
Stupid question?

Cold floods into the atmosphere where it's thinnest, at the poles.

vortexes in the upper atmosphere direct the cold toward the Earth's surface.

When the vortex is disorganized does it cause the cold to get scattered un focused toward the poles?
(seems like its akin to a inverted boiling action, or is it?)

I think the tighter the organization of polar vortexes, the more focused heat dissipation is toward the poles, but I have no idea how to test the hypothesis.

(intended stupid question comming up, here:)

The el Nino factor, is that possibly brought about by heat pressure maintained by organized polar vertices's?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 04:44:39 AM by shmengie »
Professor Trump, who'd thought it was that complicated?

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1455
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 210
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #715 on: January 19, 2017, 04:51:45 AM »
Stupid question?

Cold floods into the atmosphere where it's thinnest, at the poles.

vortexes in the upper atmosphere direct the cold toward the Earth's surface.

When the vortex is disorganized does it cause the cold to get scattered un focused toward the poles?
(seems like its akin to a inverted boiling action, or is it?)

I think the tighter the organization of polar vortexes, the more focused heat dissipation is toward the poles, but I have no idea how to test the hypothesis.

(intended stupid question comming up, here:)

The el Nino factor, is that possibly brought about by pressure maintained by organized polar vertices's?

There are no stupid questions when one tries to learn.

I am by no means expert by I will try to give some useful information

Polar Easterlies

So normal higher gas density will allow the cold air to sink. It does not require vortices or earth rotation. Also normal conservation of mass will push air at the upper air elevations from mid latitudes to the poles.

Disorganization will happen when heat from the Arctic ocean or from Lowe's pressure systems meandering to the Arctic mess up with the natural sinking of the air. This will affect the polar easterlies and the jet stream. The best setup for heat dissipation is a stable polar high due to deep dry cold from an Arctic ocean covered by thick ice.

El Ninos affect the poles through a complex atmospheric and oceanic teleconnection. The strength of the coupling depends on the setup of the Hadley (tropic and polar) cells.

dnem

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 319
  • Likes Given: 278
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #716 on: January 19, 2017, 01:07:47 PM »
It seems to me (from various posts here) that the wind speeds associated with these storms in the arctic are quite a bit slower than a storm of similar low central pressure at mid-latitudes.  Is this true? And if so, why?  Thanks.

Tigertown

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1678
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 20
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

Mozi

  • New ice
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 30
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #718 on: January 19, 2017, 04:59:33 PM »
The files may have been renamed? I see that there are files named 'N_seaice_extent_daily_v2.1.csv' and 'S_seaice_extent_daily_v2.1.csv', respectively.

bairgon

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 133
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #719 on: January 19, 2017, 05:29:38 PM »
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 05:35:45 PM by bairgon »

Tigertown

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1678
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #720 on: January 19, 2017, 05:39:16 PM »
@bairgon

Those first two you have there give the same message: this site can't be reached, blah,blah,blah.
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

Alphabet Hotel

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 456
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 179
  • Likes Given: 179
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #721 on: January 19, 2017, 05:49:51 PM »
@Tigertown

I can download those files.

bairgon

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 133
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #722 on: January 19, 2017, 06:16:44 PM »
@bairgon

Those first two you have there give the same message: this site can't be reached, blah,blah,blah.

I did edit the message a few times, trying to get the correct format for ftp links. Perhaps you have an old version? My apologies - first time for everything on this forum...

Also took a little time to find the right files and folders.

I'm using FireFTP in Firefox, and it opens up the the folders with a directory listing which made it easy to see what had changed.

Tigertown

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1678
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #723 on: January 19, 2017, 06:22:16 PM »
Thanks very much.
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

Wipneus

  • Citizen scientist
  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4220
    • View Profile
    • Arctische Pinguin
  • Liked: 1025
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #724 on: January 19, 2017, 06:52:26 PM »
Are the NSIDC links moved are just experiencing tech problems?


They have moved , with some other changes as well:

https://nsidc.org/the-drift/data-update/sea-ice-index-ftp-directory-structure-changing/

On 31 Jan the ftp will be closed and all that data can only be accessed from the protected (user+password, free registration) https connection. Start here and find the rest:

https://daacdata.apps.nsidc.org/pub/DATASETS/NOAA/G02135/

etcetera.

Tigertown

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1678
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #725 on: January 19, 2017, 06:58:42 PM »
Thanks Wipneus. I am sure that is news to more than just me.
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

Daniel

  • New ice
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #726 on: January 20, 2017, 12:43:33 PM »
It seems to me that the only consequence of the disappearing sea ice that is being discussed is the albedo change. Of course the arctic waters will absorb more energy from the sun as the ice disappears (anyone have a number on that?).
BUT there is obviously already an enormous amount of heat in the arctic; heat that today goes into melting the ice. Say that the IceVolume trend is appr. -300 km3 per year.
To melt that volume of ice it takes about 90*10^15 kJ
So when the sea ice is gone, the heat that is no longer being used to melt ice will instead heat the water.
If that energy would go into heating the top one meter across the whole arctic sea (~14M km^2), that water would warm by about 1,5 degrees C. Per year.

Do you know of anyone discussing this and possible consequences in more detail?

shmengie

  • New ice
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #727 on: January 20, 2017, 11:13:19 PM »
I'm fairly new to nullschool.  This configuration is new to me @ 10 hPa.

On the surface, the vortex in the center is a low pressure system and the vortices on either side are high.

Are they the same @ 10 hPa?
Professor Trump, who'd thought it was that complicated?

shmengie

  • New ice
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #728 on: January 21, 2017, 07:34:57 PM »
I suppose I phrased my question wrong (dang my stupidity)... ;)

Instead of high pressure vs low pressure in cyclonic spin, is it a function of heat transport down vs. up?

Do low pressure systems spin counter clockwise in the northern hemisphere due to heat being transported up thru the center?

Conversely do clockwise spin in northern hemisphere indicate cold transport down @/thru the center?

 Thanks for the wonderful response to my other stupid questions, BTW!
Professor Trump, who'd thought it was that complicated?

nicibiene

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 103
    • View Profile
    • www.nicibiene.de
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #729 on: January 21, 2017, 08:06:15 PM »
Found yesterday in my newspaper an article regarding icicles which mentioned an underwater salty version, brinicles. Got curious if it could be also an effect on oceanic life and thermohaline circulation in the arctic as it is getting warmer and more stormy.

Brinicles are transporting a lot of iones and iciness down to lower levels. They need silent waters and certain gradients in temperature. If there is more stormy and warmer water the system is getting disrupted.

Maybe it is one thing that made methane hydrates and it already affects the gulfstream from North?
 In the linked article is to find a hint towards that thought:

"The exchange of salt between sea ice and the ocean influences ocean circulation across hundreds of kilometers. "

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/3/6/1493086/-IAN-Monday-March-7-2016-Underwater-Icicle-of-Death-Brinicle


“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” –“Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.” Albert Einstein

aslan

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 226
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #730 on: January 21, 2017, 08:50:13 PM »
I suppose I phrased my question wrong (dang my stupidity)... ;)

Instead of high pressure vs low pressure in cyclonic spin, is it a function of heat transport down vs. up?

Do low pressure systems spin counter clockwise in the northern hemisphere due to heat being transported up thru the center?

Conversely do clockwise spin in northern hemisphere indicate cold transport down @/thru the center?

 Thanks for the wonderful response to my other stupid questions, BTW!

There is no direct link between stratosphere and troposphere. When you will know more about the subject you will see how troposphere and stratophere are connected, but by the way I strongly suggest you starting with the point of view that there is not such thing as of a direct link between low pressure center in stratosphere and low pressure center in troposphere. And I even more strongly suggest that you don't refer to low pressure area, excepted at surface. This can lead to epic confusion and epic fail. Above surface, no matter it is troposphere and stratosphere, it is better to speak about low geopotential and high geopotential (there is others terms possible, depending at which kind of surface you are looking at, but low / high geopotenial is a good start). And more generally, don't try to make direct link between low geopotential area in stratosphere and troposphere. There is baroclinic and batropic waves. In the case of baroclinic wave, center of low geopotential area is displaced to the west with height. For the rest I am not sure to understund.

But to help you. There is the difference between baroclinic and barotropic waves indeed. In baroclinic waves, there is warm temperatures and high humidity to the equator, and low temperatures and low humidity to the pole. With the southerly flow downstream of the low, geopotential heights rise (air is at higher temperatures and higher humidity, so the air expands, hence the higher geopotential height). And with northerly flow upstream of the low, geopotentials heights lower. This is the case for an extratopical cyclone (at 500 hPa, the trough is "behind" the low at surface). But it is also the case for large scale waves. Currently, stratosphere is under assault by a wave of wavenumber 1. Usually, this is a baroclinic wave. But for now, the tilt toward the west with height is not really persuasive, and this does not lead to be overly optimistic about the chance of a SSW in the definition.
Conversely, barotropic waves are vertically aligned and there is no such thing as differential temperature/humidity advection. This is the case for tropical cyclones and polar low for example. But at a wider scale, planetary waves often tend to become barotropic -despite the gradients in the mid latitudes-. Also, wavenumber 2 in stratosphere is more usually a barotropic wave, which means it is vertically aligned. Wavenumber 2 assault against polar vortex often lead to a split case of SSW (polar vortex being broken in two piece so).

shmengie

  • New ice
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #731 on: January 21, 2017, 10:10:27 PM »
Aslan, thank you for your explanation, I'm very interested in understanding several of the points you've made.  I will be reading soon, unfortunately, I need to be reading for my job, not my hobby...

I apologize for my ignorance, I've not studied meteorology in depth.  As I understand tropical cyclones always spin counter clockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern.  I assume this has to do with the direction of heat transport and magnetic fields.

I'm inclined to believe the upper atmosphere behaves similarly.  But I also fear my assumption is baseless.

Thats what I was fishing for, now I need to read, to see my postulations are anywhere near the right track...

In either event, thank you!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 10:18:40 PM by shmengie »
Professor Trump, who'd thought it was that complicated?

dnem

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 319
  • Likes Given: 278
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #732 on: January 22, 2017, 01:59:10 PM »
As I understand tropical cyclones always spin counter clockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern.  I assume this has to do with the direction of heat transport and magnetic fields.

It has do with the direction of the pressure gradient and the Coriolis force.


http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/D3.html
Why do tropical cyclones' winds rotate counter-clockwise (clockwise) in the Northern (Southern) Hemisphere?

The reason is that the earth's rotation sets up an apparent force (called the Coriolis force) that pulls the winds to the right in the Northern Hemisphere (and to the left in the Southern Hemisphere). So when a low pressure starts to form north of the equator, the surface winds will flow inward trying to fill in the low and will be deflected to the right and a counter-clockwise rotation will be initiated. The opposite (a deflection to the left and a clockwise rotation) will occur south of the equator.

aslan

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 226
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #733 on: January 22, 2017, 01:59:36 PM »
Aslan, thank you for your explanation, I'm very interested in understanding several of the points you've made.  I will be reading soon, unfortunately, I need to be reading for my job, not my hobby...

I apologize for my ignorance, I've not studied meteorology in depth.  As I understand tropical cyclones always spin counter clockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern.  I assume this has to do with the direction of heat transport and magnetic fields.

I'm inclined to believe the upper atmosphere behaves similarly.  But I also fear my assumption is baseless.

Thats what I was fishing for, now I need to read, to see my postulations are anywhere near the right track...

In either event, thank you!

The direction of the spin is imposed by the coriolis force only. In NH, cyclonic flow is counter-clockwise and anticyclonic flow is clockwise. The reverse is true for SH. Coriolis force is described by f, the coriolis frequency, such as :

f = 2 * ( earth rotation rate ) * sin( latitude )

And Earth rotation rate is 7.2921*10-5 s-1

For around 45°N (in radians, so pi/4), f is roughly equal to 1e-4 s-1, and for 45°S it is roughly equal to -1e-4 s-1. The change in sign is the only reason for the different direction of spin in NH and SH. You can also note that the multiplicative inverse of f, around 45°N or S still, is 3 hours approximately (10 000 seconds). This means that any flow lasting less than 3h will not feel the coriolis force. And given a standard speed of around 50 m/s (180 km/h), in 3 hours the flows will "travel" around 500 kilometers. This means that any flow lasting less than 3h and/or smaller than 500 kilometers will not feel the coriolis force. This is described by Rossby number :

Ro = speed / ( lengthscale * f )

If Ro < 1, the flow will be subject to Coriolis force. You can check that for example the flow in a bathtub will not be subject to Coriolis force.

In tropics, Coriolis frequency being small (and even nul at equator), flow are much rotationnal and much more divergent / convergent. Tropical cyclones are an exception, being very long lasting system and with very high wind speed. For example, in mid-latitudes, squall-lines have a lengthscale around 100 - 200 kilometers and are a the high end bounds of the mesoscale where Coriolis force remains marginal. In tropics, squall-lines can reach a lengthscale of up to 1000 kilometers and still being and still being at the high end bounds of the mesoscale where Coriolis force remains marginal.

There is no such thing as the geomagnetic field or differential temperatures advection in explaining the direction of the spin.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 03:51:23 PM by aslan »

dnem

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 319
  • Likes Given: 278
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #734 on: January 22, 2017, 05:17:13 PM »


The direction of the spin is imposed by the coriolis force only.
[/quote]

Wouldn't it be correct to say that the direction is dependent on whether it is divergent or convergent flow?  Certainly the deflection due to coriolis is the same, but the result, cyclonic or anti-cyclonic, depends on the pressure differential that caused air flow in the first place?

Tigertown

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1678
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #735 on: January 22, 2017, 05:43:29 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong aslan, but maybe where the miscommunication is coming from is in regard to the very definition of the term cyclone. Is every circulation in the atmosphere automatically to be called a cyclone? My thinking is no. Please enlighten.
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

aslan

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 226
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #736 on: January 23, 2017, 10:41:09 PM »
Yeah yeah, of course cyclone is not spinning the same way in NH and SH. And if you dig in the etymology of the word cyclonic and anticyclonic, it is quite two strange words. Cyclone comes from Greek and does not implies a priori a specific direction for the spin. Etymologically speaking, we could make a case that anticyclonic is cyclonic... It is worth remembering also that we are speaking about vorticity along z-axis. Vorticity along x and y axis are negligible in general ( excepted in tornadoes XD ). And, mathematically speaking, positive vorticity is counter-clockwise, and negative vorticity is clockwise. This said, when I speak about a cyclone, for me it is a positive spin in NH and negative spin in SH. Of course, there is a link between the vorticity and the local pressure anomaly. If you consider p', the field of the pressure anomaly (anomaly regarding a space mean p0, not a time mean), you can write something like this -k and v vector- :

-1/ρ0 * grad( p' ) = f0 * k ⋀ v

Or more simply, in NH positive spin around a low pressure anomaly (1025 hPa can still be cyclonic if embedded in a 1050 hPa anticyclonic rotation ...) and a negative spin around a low pressure anomaly (again, 1000 hPa can be quite anticyclonic). I'm note sure if there is a best way to describe this equation. Coriolis force and pressure gradient act together and you have something like a double entry table. If NH and convergent flow, positive vorticity. If SH and convergent flow, negative vorticity. If NH and divergent flow, negative vorticity. If SH and convergent flow, positive vorticity.

magnamentis

  • Guest
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #737 on: January 23, 2017, 11:33:10 PM »
Yeah yeah, of course cyclone is not spinning the same way in NH and SH. And if you dig in the etymology of the word cyclonic and anticyclonic, it is quite two strange words. Cyclone comes from Greek and does not implies a priori a specific direction for the spin. Etymologically speaking, we could make a case that anticyclonic is cyclonic... It is worth remembering also that we are speaking about vorticity along z-axis. Vorticity along x and y axis are negligible in general ( excepted in tornadoes XD ). And, mathematically speaking, positive vorticity is counter-clockwise, and negative vorticity is clockwise. This said, when I speak about a cyclone, for me it is a positive spin in NH and negative spin in SH. Of course, there is a link between the vorticity and the local pressure anomaly. If you consider p', the field of the pressure anomaly (anomaly regarding a space mean p0, not a time mean), you can write something like this -k and v vector- :

-1/ρ0 * grad( p' ) = f0 * k ⋀ v

Or more simply, in NH positive spin around a low pressure anomaly (1025 hPa can still be cyclonic if embedded in a 1050 hPa anticyclonic rotation ...) and a negative spin around a low pressure anomaly (again, 1000 hPa can be quite anticyclonic). I'm note sure if there is a best way to describe this equation. Coriolis force and pressure gradient act together and you have something like a double entry table. If NH and convergent flow, positive vorticity. If SH and convergent flow, negative vorticity. If NH and divergent flow, negative vorticity. If SH and convergent flow, positive vorticity.

thanks for the above, it's a pleasure to have an opportunity to learn such things as an aside, love it.

shmengie

  • New ice
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #738 on: January 24, 2017, 01:45:36 AM »
+1

Would love to ask more questions, fear used up my stupidity allotment, I almost feel smarter.  ;)
Thanks Aslan!
Professor Trump, who'd thought it was that complicated?

magnamentis

  • Guest
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #739 on: January 24, 2017, 04:11:03 PM »
+1

Would love to ask more questions, fear used up my stupidity allotment, I almost feel smarter.  ;)
Thanks Aslan!

don't worry, really smart people know at all times how "stupid" they are when they compare their own level of knowledge to the entire available knowledge and even more so when they include the yet unknown into their considerations. it's one thing that is distinguishing the smart from the stupid, the stupid think they're soo.... smart while the smart know how stupid they are LOL

budmantis

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1220
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #740 on: January 24, 2017, 04:40:31 PM »
+1

Would love to ask more questions, fear used up my stupidity allotment, I almost feel smarter.  ;)
Thanks Aslan!

don't worry, really smart people know at all times how "stupid" they are when they compare their own level of knowledge to the entire available knowledge and even more so when they include the yet unknown into their considerations. it's one thing that is distinguishing the smart from the stupid, the stupid think they're soo.... smart while the smart know how stupid they are LOL

Well said, Magnamentis. We're always learning no matter how old we are or how educated.

magnamentis

  • Guest
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #741 on: January 24, 2017, 06:49:07 PM »
+1

Would love to ask more questions, fear used up my stupidity allotment, I almost feel smarter.  ;)
Thanks Aslan!

don't worry, really smart people know at all times how "stupid" they are when they compare their own level of knowledge to the entire available knowledge and even more so when they include the yet unknown into their considerations. it's one thing that is distinguishing the smart from the stupid, the stupid think they're soo.... smart while the smart know how stupid they are LOL

Well said, Magnamentis. We're always learning no matter how old we are or how educated.

just because i love the topic so much, interestingly the more we know the more questions arise and  seems there to learn until we come to the point when we get kind of overwhelmed and start filtering passively instead of seeking specific knowledge. ( not exclusively, just a basic trend  and individually different of course )

similarly i started to distinguish between those who are proud of knowledge and those who humbly and simply enjoyi knowledge. a huge difference as to the level of ego involved, further it's a gift to be curious and intelligent, not an achievement, hence nothing to be proud of but something
that we can enjoy in case of being blessed :-)

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #742 on: January 24, 2017, 07:25:32 PM »
Decades ago when i was in physics grad school, i had a professor named Bob Mills (physics aficionados might remember Yang-Mills theory.) For a man of prodigious intellect, he was suprisingly humble, and never worried about revealing his ignorance. He was fond of attending seminars in fields other than physics, and was fearless in asking the most elementary questions. Students loved this habit, for he would ask the ones they wanted to, but were shy about.

One of his favorite phrases was "Let me ask a naive question ..." Very often the question may have been naive but the subsequent discussion was better than the whole preceding seminar.

sidd

budmantis

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1220
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #743 on: January 24, 2017, 10:21:38 PM »
Decades ago when i was in physics grad school, i had a professor named Bob Mills (physics aficionados might remember Yang-Mills theory.) For a man of prodigious intellect, he was suprisingly humble, and never worried about revealing his ignorance. He was fond of attending seminars in fields other than physics, and was fearless in asking the most elementary questions. Students loved this habit, for he would ask the ones they wanted to, but were shy about.

One of his favorite phrases was "Let me ask a naive question ..." Very often the question may have been naive but the subsequent discussion was better than the whole preceding seminar.

sidd

Humility is underrated, sounds like he was a man for all seasons.

Jim Williams

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #744 on: January 28, 2017, 06:32:16 PM »
How come all the models and papers talk about a shutdown in the thermohaline circulation when the data we are watching this winter is the North Atlantic Drift flowing into the Arctic Ocean?

I guess I just know the right question to ask Google.

Pmt111500

  • Guest
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #745 on: January 28, 2017, 06:40:05 PM »
How come all the models and papers talk about a shutdown in the thermohaline circulation when the data we are watching this winter is the North Atlantic Drift flowing into the Arctic Ocean?

I guess I just know the right question to ask Google.


I've been wondering the same thing.

Tigertown

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1678
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #746 on: January 28, 2017, 07:05:15 PM »
Someone or someone's model thought the GIS would melt faster than the oceans would warm.
"....and the appointed time came for God to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Revelation 11:18.

Jim Williams

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #747 on: January 28, 2017, 07:39:04 PM »
Someone or someone's model thought the GIS would melt faster than the oceans would warm.

Hehehe.  I think you are right.

I know there's an alternate theory out there that might match what is happening better...but I don't know how to ask for current research on the subject which I might find more believable than the thermohaline shutdown.

Iceismylife

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 281
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #748 on: January 28, 2017, 11:45:32 PM »
Someone or someone's model thought the GIS would melt faster than the oceans would warm.

Hehehe.  I think you are right.

I know there's an alternate theory out there that might match what is happening better...but I don't know how to ask for current research on the subject which I might find more believable than the thermohaline shutdown.
Jakobshaven hasn't kept speeding up like it was.  The fjord is now choked with bits and bergs. Zachariae just had the fjord in front of its calving face brake up for the first time in several years. And melt may be off a bit from expected.

Albedo may be a bigger player than thought.

My opinion for what it is worth is Antarctica will have an ice shelf collapse, then sea level will go up, then GIS will shed more ice in bergs, then the thermohaline circulation will shut down.

johnm33

  • Guest
Re: "Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
« Reply #749 on: January 28, 2017, 11:46:42 PM »
I used to believe that the NAD was the result of persistent winds blowing across the Atlantic, that view is changing it seems more likely that it's the residual of tidal movements in the north atlantic and as such more water means more current. Also with so much melt water coming out of the arctic and off of greenlands east coast the natural flows are now more nearly aligned with the tidal forces. One glimmer of hope is that perhaps these waters being churned and exposed to the north atlantic winter will begin to arrive in barents somewhat cooled, though there are slim signs so far.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 11:51:43 PM by johnm33 »