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Author Topic: Jakobshavn Isbræ / Ilulissat Isfjord / West Greenland  (Read 447787 times)

crandles

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2013, 02:06:24 PM »
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8249/8627805368_cccb553487_b.jpg

Perhaps easier to see loading separate images into two windows and flick between two windows.

Espen

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2013, 02:07:58 PM »
Mauri it is the southern calving front!
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Neven

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2013, 10:27:04 PM »
Arcticio just uploaded this to Youtube:


A calving event would seem to explain how the fjord is filling up again so fast.
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gfwellman

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2013, 10:38:52 PM »
Flicking between those two images, it looks like the southern calving face is curved a little deeper in the second one.  However, if you watch the film, you see the face seems to pulse a fair bit.  This is presumably either
a) An artifact of the way Modis processes the images or
b) A real measure of the face advancing, then calving, repeat, repeat.

As Jakobshavn is one of the fastest glaciers in Greenland, I would tentatively lean towards (b).  Note that this is not the same thing as permanent retreat of the calving face to a new location.

OldLeatherneck

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2013, 11:36:08 PM »
A question for the experts: (self-proclaimed or otherwise)

Isn't unusual to have calving events of this magnitude so early in the melt season?
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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2013, 01:38:47 AM »
Maybe this will help show the calving.  Here’s April 5 and 7, covering the area in the red box in the still image -- where the glacier meets the Greenland Ice Sheet. The center of the animation shows the semi-circle of the glacier edge has moved downwards -- toward the GIS.

(I’ve omitted April 6 because the land “moves” a little in the image, confusing the issue.)
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Espen

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2013, 06:42:28 AM »
Sigmetnow;

Nice thanx!
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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2013, 02:05:53 PM »
Two more things....

1) Here’s a scale for the glacier.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2013, 02:07:35 PM »
2)  Notice all the melt happening in this area in just 3 days’ time (April 3 to April 6, 2013).
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Jim Williams

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2013, 02:38:01 PM »
Looks more like a flushing event to me.  Sure would be nice to get some data or recent elevation changes.

werther

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2013, 04:08:55 PM »
On recent events around Sermeq Kujalleq…
I’ve put 05/07 april MODIS under my CAD file:

It looks like this confirms a recent calving / collapse. It is the small light green area against the blue 2011 calving event line.
The front had returned to this 2011 line during winter, compensating for the June 2012 loss. Now it retreated about  700 m1.

The event could have produced enough debris to fill a large part of the Fjord. The floating ice tongue is several hundreds of meters thick. So 2 km2 could have delivered 1,4 km3, enough for 500 km2 Fjord to get filled again.

I marked a ‘melt zone/bare ice’-line and two remarkable features high up (900 m +SL). One of them is a regular melt lake that usually shows up in May. The melt zone-line nicely shows the thinning basin surrounding the glacier.

There’s enough going on to fear another ravaging summer for the GIS….
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 08:38:01 AM by werther »

TerryM

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2013, 07:21:42 PM »
Werther


I'd noticed that in fall of last year the calving front of the more southerly lobe was further south than where it now stands. I'm assuming that over the winter months that portion of the GIS had advanced > 1 km. & it is this advanced tongue that is now calving.


Would this equate to the red line shown on your chart?


Terry
[size=78%] [/size]

Jim Hunt

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2013, 07:25:50 PM »
A very enlightening picture Werther, thanks.

Is there by any chance a larger version available somewhere? If so would it be OK if I reproduced it on my own blog, or failing that this version?
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werther

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2013, 10:50:28 PM »
Evening all,

I've taken this detail from the CAD map:



It shows the various stages around the calving front during '11, '12 and '13.

This is a very dynamic system, so the continuous retreats and advances are not special in themselves.
The whole picture through the last two years make these movements interesting in their context.
That's why I introduced lots of features in the feeding area higher up on the original map.
Last year the Steffen Research Group reported 5m sinking of the Swiss Camp surface, about 20 km to the NE of the glacier. This process is, IMHO, continuing and accelerating.


The calving front is now hovering over the western end of the 1600 m deep trough. As support from the fjord sill is now lacking, velocity and frontal collapses over the trough will become increasingly dynamic.


Terry, does this answer your question?

Jim, I'll try to put a large version on photobucket. All pics on my page are free to use.

gfwellman

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2013, 01:00:55 AM »
Where did you get that bedrock elevation map?  It's at a much more detailed resolution than

If that deep trench connects all the way to the central depression ... well, it's a good thing it's narrow!

TerryM

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2013, 05:13:05 AM »
Thanx Werther


My question was answered in far more detail than I'd hoped for!


Terry

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #66 on: April 09, 2013, 08:24:56 AM »
Hi Jim,
I’ve put a larger version of the map in photobucket:

http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/hanver1/media/Arctic%20ice%202013/Ilulissatday09505042013largemap_zps195977d3.jpg.html

Hope it is useful.

Greg, I took the bedrock map from a Steffen Research Group ppt-presentation, I think 2010. I'll give the link later.

werther

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #67 on: April 09, 2013, 08:44:38 AM »
BTW I don’t think the Sermeq Kujalleq trough pushes through below sea level to the suggested depressions under the ice in central Greenland. The bedrock map suggests a sill about 70 km to the east of the present calving front. That’s more or less where the  summer snow line battle takes place nowadays.

Ocean water can’t get through here, but I imagine the deep trough has free water at it’s bottom. The glacier fills it in almost to the basis in the east, but thins further west. Now that the front has lost contact with the mid-fjord sill and is over the first part of the deep trough, ocean water can mix in. I expect the dynamics to accelerate. One of the aspects could be more pulses of melt water and debris, others continued broad collapses of parts of the floating tongue.

Espen

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2013, 09:03:25 AM »
Werther;

Do we any information about what materials the bedrock/threshold is made of?
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werther

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2013, 09:28:42 AM »
Morning Espen,
I think I understand what your concern is. If these sills are mainly constituted by boulder clay, they won't be a secure blockade against ocean intrusion.
Maybe we could find geological info on geus.dk?
OTOH, most moraine material has been deposited in Disko Bugt. It shaped up the horseshoe sill at the mouth of the Fjord, where the deep-keeled debris often gets stuck.
The mechanical forces under the glacier being supposedly immense, the inner sills probably consist of very old fold formations. Quite rigid (I hope...).

Espen

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #70 on: April 09, 2013, 09:33:39 AM »
Yes somehow like the glaciers at North East Greenland, were many of them are suffering from starvation, due to rock thresholds.
Have a ice day!

CraigsIsland

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Bernard

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #72 on: April 10, 2013, 12:12:27 AM »
The view from the webcam at Hotel Arctic in Ilulissat http://www.hotelarctic.com/files/webcam/webcamshot.jpg is really worth it today.
A week ago the bay was mostly open water except for the impressive bergs run aground in the background. Today it's almost completely covered with a chaos of chunks of all sizes.
Enjoy it now in the calm sunset. Image refreshes every five minutes or so, you can really see all this stuff moving around.
Position of the hotel (and webcam) http://www.geonames.org/8520900
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:31:04 AM by bernard »

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #73 on: April 10, 2013, 10:40:44 AM »
Hi all, you may enjoy the split zoom at arctic.io to compare day to day and year to year changes. Currently there are 270 full Arctic mosaics (250m per pixel) available and a bot adds the latest every day. The mosaic started some when in April 2008, if you need a date not processed so far let me know, I'll put it into the queue and next day or so you'll have it. If some one is proficient in Google Spreadsheet, I'll give you write access and then it takes only a few hours.

The bold days in the calendar applet indicate available zooms. Sometimes the machinery is dreaming and returns no dates to the interface, just press F5 then to reload and wake it up. Use your mousewheel to zoom and dragging to change the view or the buttons found in lower right corner. F11 to go distraction free and fullscreen.


Artful Dodger

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #74 on: April 10, 2013, 11:21:48 AM »
The view from the webcam at Hotel Arctic in Ilulissat is really worth it today.
Hi bernard,

Welcome to the Forum! Indeed, the current picture is a keeper, so I've added it as an attachment to preserve it here.

Thanks, and once again welcome!
Cheers!
Lodger

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2013, 11:23:03 AM »
The view from the webcam at Hotel Arctic in Ilulissat http://www.hotelarctic.com/files/webcam/webcamshot.jpg is really worth it today.
A week ago the bay was mostly open water except for the impressive bergs run aground in the background. Today it's almost completely covered with a chaos of chunks of all sizes.
Enjoy it now in the calm sunset. Image refreshes every five minutes or so, you can really see all this stuff moving around.
Position of the hotel (and webcam) http://www.geonames.org/8520900
Cheers!
Lodger

Bernard

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2013, 01:48:48 PM »
@Artful Dodger thanks for the welcome!

The webcam image was already inserted higher in the thread, but better twice than none :)

For the record I'm not related whatsoever with Hotel Arctic, and (unfortunately) never been to Ilulissat (although I keep dreaming of it of course). I observe all this safely and remotely from my France Southern Alps, where ice is also steadily receeding. Last winter was long here with a lot of snow, though, and the spring quite late, wet and fresh ... which might be good news for my "neighbours" such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacier_Blanc.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2013, 09:42:35 PM »
Hi Werther,

I’ve put a larger version of the map in photobucket. Hope it is useful.


Thanks very much, and it will be very useful. I'd actually started writing an article on the topic, intending to include your image, when the following news broke here in the UK:

http://econnexus.org/met-office-admit-our-climate-is-being-disrupted-by-the-warming-of-the-arctic/

Greenland even got a mention. According to Julia Slingo, chief scientist at the UK's Met Office:

We know there are links, for example, in the ocean temperatures that run down the west coast of Greenland which are very warm at the moment. Exceptionally warm!


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Apocalypse4Real

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2013, 04:10:51 AM »
Jim, good to see Slingo's change of perspective.

Hunter's team flew Jakobshavn Glacier today. The following photos and Lidar image - all from Ice Bridge.

From April 4  to April 10 2013  - 200 meters were cut from the calving front.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2013, 10:42:33 AM »
After a bit of a delay, here's what I've finally come up with:

http://econnexus.org/nasa-chasing-calving-ice-in-western-greenland/

I hope that's OK with all concerned. Please let me know ASAP if not!
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Neven

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2013, 12:18:12 PM »
Nice post, Jim. I might do one too in coming days.
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Artful Dodger

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2013, 12:33:41 PM »
@Artful Dodger thanks for the welcome!

For the record I'm not related whatsoever with Hotel Arctic, and (unfortunately) never been to Ilulissat

Salut, bernard!

Je suis triste pour la fonte du Groenland et les Hautes-Alpes. Au revoir le climat tempéré.  :'(
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 11:10:12 AM by Artful Dodger »
Cheers!
Lodger

Hunter

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2013, 05:11:48 PM »
Wow, you guys are fast! 

That just shows hows it calved in just a few days.

Crew is over the Geikie peninsula today. 

She does a better job posting pics than I do!

Espen

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2013, 05:37:08 PM »
Hunter;

Yes it was noticed the same day it happened by "Yuha", the calving though looked mush bigger on the Modis Images, than the 200 meter your measured?
Have a ice day!

Hunter

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2013, 06:24:18 PM »
It is possible we did not fly over largest area of calving.  I wouldn't know without digging through all the photos and flightlines. 

Here is the overlay of flightlines from yesterday just fyi.

EDIT: the background image is very old sat imagery from the area
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 08:01:00 PM by Hunter »

Espen

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #85 on: April 11, 2013, 06:48:12 PM »
Hunter;

I have difficulties placing that image you just supplied, but if you have any images around where the calving line is it would be helpful, I am especially confused by the ice free (open water) areas the image contains.
Have a ice day!

ivica

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2013, 07:15:42 PM »
Espen,
Seems that the overlay of flightlines from yesterday, given by Hunter, is put over image present in GoogleEarth.

Hunter

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2013, 07:18:46 PM »
Yes its generic google earth sat view of Jakobshavn. 

Sorry I don't have anything processed that is up to date from yesterday.  Actually running some of it now.

Espen

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2013, 07:25:53 PM »
Hunter and Ivica;

I realized it was a overlay from Google, but even after entering Google maps I could not find the location?

But I and I guess many others around here would love to have some more info/images to study, and it would interesting to know how big the calving actually was?
Have a ice day!

gfwellman

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2013, 07:28:54 PM »
Yes its generic google earth sat view of Jakobshavn.
Which appears to be really old, like 5+ years old based on the position of the calving front.

ivica

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2013, 07:38:05 PM »
Espen,
Aha, location of Geikie Peninsula is the question?

http://glacierchange.wordpress.com/tag/geikie-peninsula-greenland-glacier-retreat/

or, do I answer wrong 'question', again?  ???
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 08:12:09 PM by ivica »

Laurent

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2013, 08:03:23 PM »
It is easier to understand like that !?
There is around 20 km between the two calving front !
The latest is from today 11th of april 2013.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 08:10:14 PM by Laurent »

Bernard

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2013, 08:38:44 PM »
@Lodger
Je suis triste pour la fonte du Groenland et les Hautes-Alpes.

I tried today to figure the size of the last week calving in Jakobshavn Isbræ by comparing its volume to the Hautes-Alpes Glacier Blanc, which we still find here very impressive despite its spectacular recent retreat. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacier_Blanc the area is a little more than 5 km² for a maximum depth of 250m. Which gives a maximal volume of a little more than 1 km3 of ice.
For the above said calving event, based on a conservative estimation on a 200m retreat on a front of about 5 km, and a thickness of several hundreds of meters, say 500m, we have at least 0.5 km3 gone to the sea. Which means about half the volume of the Glacier Blanc ...

Espen

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2013, 08:49:20 PM »
Bernard;

Yes there is plenty of ice for a few Gin Fizz!
Have a ice day!

Laurent

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werther

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2013, 12:27:38 AM »
To have a better grasp at what the Icebridge swaths resemble, I rescaled them as good as I could with the coordinates on the pic. Then I introduced it on my CAD frame:



The swaths are 250 m wide, so these three cover just a part of the calving front. Depending on the exact location, my opinion is that MODIS indicates a larger distance a bit to the south (left, here).
The most striking part is that with the means we have, we can follow what’s going on at a daily basis when clouds allow…!

Artful Dodger

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #96 on: April 12, 2013, 10:37:24 AM »
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 11:06:48 AM by Artful Dodger »
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Lodger

ivica

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #97 on: April 12, 2013, 10:52:14 AM »
Hi, guys.
Do you have a feeling that we are hijacking Espen's thread a bit? ;-)

Artful Dodger

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #98 on: April 12, 2013, 10:59:21 AM »
Hi, guys.
Do you have a feeling that we are hijacking Espen's thread a bit? ;-)

Good point, ivica. Will move my Hautes-Alpes comments to an appropriate thread::)

EDIT: Done.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 11:08:37 AM by Artful Dodger »
Cheers!
Lodger

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Re: Jakobshavn Isbræ/Sermeq Kujalleq/Ilulissat Icefjord
« Reply #99 on: April 14, 2013, 11:21:34 PM »
The calving continues.
Both calving fronts lose a corner between April 12 and April 14.