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Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1550 on: February 19, 2017, 04:30:55 AM »
Heard something like that, too - putting a "deep state" coup d'etat in a positive light. Slowly but surely I'm leaning toward such view, too. Looks like at the end, if things get bad enough, only the deep state can save America (and the world) from Trump, Bannon, Tillerson and the Kremlin crew.

Except that the 'deep state' won't do it to save America or the world, but to advance the interests of some other kleptocrat faction, probably getting rich off depleted uranium missiles, cluster bombs and drones. And Tillerson and his ilk.

So, this is like being happy to be saved from a murderer by a rapist. Or like a cancer patient being happy to have survived a plane crash.

Trump is not the problem. The system is the problem. And the system has one goal only: make the super-rich infinitely richer. And we're expected to make it happen.
I don't think the spooks work against Donald because they are "only in it for the gold". (I guess you know what I'm alluding to: climate scientists doing fake science for the money...)  Donald also promises lots of money and work for military and spooks.

Here is a 30min interview with Malcolm Nance (from last week, before he appeared with Maher)

What he tells is mostly unsurprising or 2016 news to me. But he's a serious spook insider, with serious trustworthy intentions methinks. When he says treason it's not because he's making stuff up.

While I also think the system is the problem, Donald makes it much worse. Quite obviously given the riches of his cabinet... But worse, given his connections to the super rich plunderers of Russia surrounding Putin. They are eager to convert their spoils into hard currency, and have been doing this via real estate deals with Trump ever since Wall Street banks stopped financing his bankruptcies:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/donald-trump-was-bailed-out-bankruptcy-russia-crime-bosses
https://www.ft.com/content/33285dfa-9231-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923 (Financial Times investigations 2016)
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/what-donald-trump-owes-wall-street/512327/
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/16/how-donald-trump-became-deutsche-bank-biggest-headache
... I bet I missed some more stuff
... and this isn't the worst. There's Tillerson's giga deal with Putin on Arctic oil drilling.

Summa summarum: Trump and Putin and friends represent the worst of capital accumulation. Getting rid of them won't break the system's capital concentrating feedback loop, but it would still be a good thing for capitalism. (Besides a lot of other evils they represent. But heck, who wants Obamacare or Nixon's Clean Air Act...)

It seems there will be some very bad Russian "surprises" coming out soon:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-cyber-idUSKBN15X0OE
Quote
Sat Feb 18, 2017
U.S. inquiries into Russian election hacking include three FBI probes
...
The people who spoke to Reuters also corroborated a Tuesday New York Times report that Americans with ties to Trump or his campaign had repeated contacts with current and former Russian intelligence officers before the November election. Those alleged contacts are among the topics of the FBI counterintelligence investigation.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 04:47:26 AM by Martin Gisser »

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1551 on: February 19, 2017, 04:56:31 AM »
From a book I am reading:

Quote
In the 1890s, as the first phase of economic globalization accelerated, xenophobic politicians in France demanded protectionism while targeting foreign workers – angry Frenchmen massacred dozens of Italian immigrant labourers in 1893. White supremacists in the United States had already stigmatized Chinese workers with explicitly racist laws and rhetoric; these were meant, along with segregationist policies against African-Americans, to restore the dignity of a growing number of white ‘wage slaves’.

Familiar?

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1552 on: February 19, 2017, 05:10:36 AM »
Quote
Hugo von Hofmannsthal wrote, ‘politics is magic’ and ‘he who knows how to summon the forces from the deep, him will they follow’.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/18/politics/donald-trump-florida-campaign-rally/index.html

The ash in the eyes:

Trump: 'I want to be among my friends'

At Florida rally, Trump gets campaign-level adulation

Trump hands the mic to a pumped supporter

The business:

China grants Trump a trademark, raising ethics concerns

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1553 on: February 19, 2017, 01:39:37 PM »
Martin, it seems the only thing we disagree upon is bad vs worse. You say that this is worse, I say it's just as bad, with the silver lining of being more conspicuous.

Even though I think that Trump is a narcissist and liar, there are a couple of things that really bother me:

- The comparisons with Hitler, Stalin and Mao. And if you don't agree with that, you must be a this or that. That segment on Maher with Piers Morgan, which I've re-watched, is mindblowing in that respect.
- The hysteria which is exactly the same as the Republican/Tea Party hysteria when Obama became president. I thought liberals were supposed to be the intelligent, rational ones.
- The way all those intelligence reports via the media are lapped up. My immediate reaction, when I am told by the media that intelligence services are alleging something without providing any evidence, is that I'm being played by someone.

If it weren't for the horrible things Trump is going to do to climate science and the environment, I'd actually root for the guy, because he upsets both neocons and neolibs (which are one and the same), and I refuse to believe that everything he does, will be horrible.

That's because I believe it can't get much worse than it already was, given how Saint Obama and his predecessors have already so thoroughly screwed the American population and the world at large.

However, the climate is going to keep changing, it becomes more undeniable day by day (Arctic sea ice, anyone?). So, let Trump f**k it up, for everyone to see, for everyone to realize that they have to do something (and not some pretty face with pretty words they've voted for), that the system needs to change (by limiting how much one person can own).

Everything he does and screws up, can be reversed in no time. However, for that the Democratic party or some third party needs to be able to take advantage of the screw-up. As long as the Corporate Democrats keep the party a weak version of the Republican party, and keep screwing over working people in favour of Wall Street and Big Pharma, etc, they're going to keep losing to idiots like Trump.

So, in my view, that's where the real battle is.

I'm more interested in post-Trump than all the shenanigans he pulls to keep everyone's eyes averted from what's really going on, or the way Corporate Democrats and the media rile up the masses to prevent meaningful change.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1554 on: February 19, 2017, 03:20:20 PM »
History is a very good teacher...... And the truth NEVER goes away.  As taught by "Saint Obama"...... ;)



You just let them keep digging their grave........
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

shmengie

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1555 on: February 19, 2017, 03:20:40 PM »
$200k buys admission to the President's klub.
The kleptocrat winter wing of the Whitehouse.

Trump took the presidency
Annual membership fees doubled
@ Mar-a-lago 100k - 200k

Snows money on Trump.
President's salary would be $400k.
If he accepted it, he'd loose his tax bracket.
Huh...
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 03:39:28 PM by shmengie »
Professor Trump, who'd thought it was that complicated?

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1556 on: February 19, 2017, 04:30:30 PM »
In the way of more background on moral outrage, we should be aware that all humans are capable of atrocities, not just Corporate Democrats/Republicans, for example at the end of the European Colonial era:

The first linked article is entitled: “Dutch Imperial Past Returns to Haunt the Netherlands”

https://networks.h-net.org/node/5293/blog/h-empire/20935/dutch-imperial-past-returns-haunt-netherlands

Extract: ““What stands out is that Holland’s colonial past, the period 1945-1949 in particular, is as much taboo today as it was earlier.” Houben was quite outspoken in pointing his finger at those responsible for implementing and maintain this regime of silence: “politicians, but also historians and journalists have failed.” Andrew Goss commented that while 1950s’ scholarship passed over the Dutch colonial experience in the East Indies in silence, recent years have brought a flood of publications on the colonial experience, including memoirs, photo-books, diaries and histories of colonialism. Goss concludes that “this nostalgic resurrection of empire is detrimental to the Dutch nation’s ability to accept responsibility for the serious war crimes committed during the 'police actions’ of 1947 and 1948.“

See also:
http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/dutch-apology-for-indonesian-colonial-atrocities-opens-old-wounds


The third linked article is entitled: “5 of the worst atrocities carried out by the British Empire”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

Extract: “In 1943, up to four million Bengalis starved to death when Winston Churchill diverted food to British soldiers and countries such as Greece while a deadly famine swept through Bengal.

Talking about the Bengal famine in 1943, Churchill said: “I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.””

All people need to start cleaning-up their own acts now, as there is no time to choose the greater of two evils now and then just fix it later.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 06:05:55 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1557 on: February 19, 2017, 04:52:16 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “'Poisoned' critic Vladimir Kara-Murza leaves Russia for treatment”.  Putin is not a good role model for Trump.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39021225

Extract: “An outspoken Kremlin critic who fell into a coma two years after a suspected poisoning has left Russia for treatment abroad.“
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

pileus

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1558 on: February 19, 2017, 05:00:55 PM »
For any readers in Sweden, know that the US stands with you after the horrible events of Friday night!  President Trump reminded us that we need to think about what's going on all across this dangerous world.

#swedenstrong

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1559 on: February 19, 2017, 05:12:22 PM »
Quote
BREAKING NEWS. Swedish police have released picture of the man sought for the terror attack #lastnightinsweden  #swedenincident #TrumpRally

https://mobile.twitter.com/DougallChops/status/833268073419403264?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

budmantis

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1560 on: February 19, 2017, 05:15:13 PM »
Aside from the chicken's point of view, that's no terrorist!

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1561 on: February 19, 2017, 05:47:08 PM »
A new era of propaganda. Zombie news...False but immortal, infectious like memes and real viruses with millions of willing electronic and real living hosts..No "vaccine"/"antibiotic" to fight them..With our collective immunity very weak, slowly savaging our cultural and democratic flesh... Waiting for the new mindless hordes to revolt and create room for the new despots..

Lithuanian authorities launch investigation into fake German rape story
Quote
Lithuania has launched a probe into who is responsible for falsely reporting a rape. The investigation comes amid fears of a Russian disinformation campaign following an increased NATO deployment to the Baltic countries.

Quote
The probe comes in response to an email sent to the speaker of the Lithuanian parliament claiming that a group of German-speaking men raped a 15-year-old girl in a small town near a German army barracks.

Police have already determined that the report was false, and now authorities are looking into who was behind the email, which prosecutors said was sent from a country outside the European Union.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1562 on: February 19, 2017, 05:58:46 PM »
It would be ironic indeed if the new administration's trade policies ended up decimating the U.S. beef and fossil fuel industries, despite their protestations that climate change is a hoax.

The first casualties of Trump's trade wars are Texas cattle ranchers
Quote
But the Texas cattle rancher now faces a new threat: the Trump administration's blundering, blustering trade policy. By threatening a trade war with Mexico within days of inauguration, the president helped trigger a slide in cattle futures. Mexico is a major export market. By sinking the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the new administration cut off long-sought access to the Japanese market. Now banks have raised the conditions for collateral for loans for ranchers.

Texas ranchers, though, will not be alone for long. Beef producers from Nebraska to the Dakotas face the same problems. So do grain farmers in Kansas and the snow-covered corn fields of Iowa, just like tomato farmers in California and Florida and autoworkers in Michigan, longshoremen, truckers and railway workers in Miami and Houston and Long Beach. These will be the first casualties of a trade war.
...
Texas doesn't remotely fit the mold of Trump's enfeebled America that is losing jobs to competitors overseas. Texas is the largest exporter among the 50 states with nearly $280 billion in exports, according to state data. The top destinations: Mexico, followed by Canada, Brazil and China, three of which are now embroiled in trade disputes with Washington even as Texas exports oil, coal, petrochemicals, heavy machinery and transportation equipment. That means Texas is home to some of the nation's busiest ports, such as Laredo, El Paso, Houston and Galveston. More Texans work in trade than in oil and gas. Nearly a half-million work for foreign-owned companies, which have pumped more than $20 billion annually into the economy....
http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2017/02/16/first-casualties-trumps-trade-wars-texas-cattle-ranchers
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

gerontocrat

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1563 on: February 19, 2017, 06:32:26 PM »
Texas cattle ranchers being amongst the first casualties of "America First" ? The Law of Unintended Consequences claims its first victims?

And the Stock Markets still think it is all gonna be wunnerful. Ho hum.
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"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1564 on: February 19, 2017, 07:07:12 PM »
Again...IF Mattis "were to quit" some months down the road....THAT would be a BIG RED FLAG (not that anyone very many people needs one at this point).....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mattis-trump-press_us_58a9b34ce4b037d17d28d3e0?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 08:39:03 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1565 on: February 19, 2017, 07:42:55 PM »
It looks to be a "close call" between who is more of a "neocon":  Genghis Kahn, Attila The Hun, or John Bolton.

I would give Bolton the nod....

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bolton-reacts-being-short-list-005323328.html
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wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1566 on: February 19, 2017, 08:31:09 PM »
Neven wrote: "If it weren't for the horrible things Trump is going to do to climate science and the environment, I'd actually root for the guy..."

I'm saddened to hear you say that, since I have so much respect for you and your work.

I live in a neighborhood with many Muslim immigrants and they have been directly demonized by Trump (he came to town to specifically demonize my neighborhood) and are feeling terrified. So are most of my Latino, African American, LBGTQ..., Native American, Asian Americans neighbors...nearly everyone, really. These are all people who are perfectly aware of the enormous "short comings" (to put it mildly) of the Obama administration, by the way.

Maybe you have to be living here inside the horror to see it. The policies he has already implemented and tried to implement are already doing great harm, and the Republicans that now control the legislature are in the process of implementing more.

I agree that the establishment needed shaking up. But really he is entrenching the Wall Street Lobbiest who most desperately need to be booted out of government and heavily regulated. We needed a Bernie revolution (or something to the left of that), not one ambitious to be to the right of the already absurdly right-wing main stream Republican Party.

So now people are trying to figure out how to get their country back and, yes, looking to some of the tactics successfully used by TeaPartiers. Shouldn't activists learn from other activist tactics that have proved successful (as long as they are non-violent)?

Anyway, thanks again for wonderful blog and forum. I hope you stay well and safe in this very uncertain future we are now facing.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1567 on: February 19, 2017, 08:45:30 PM »
Reince Priebus: "No One Had Contact With Russia During The Campaign — As Far As We Know"

For those of you not familiar with the US and its judicial system.....that is "lawyer talk" for:  "Oh shit....got to parse my words VERY CAREFULLY because somebody may find out what the F*** we did."  You'll see more and more of this over the coming weeks....

Tick.....tick.....tick.....tick....tick....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/reince-priebus-trump-russia_us_58a9b293e4b07602ad55a4c7?
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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1568 on: February 19, 2017, 08:51:35 PM »
Trump's Navy secretary nominee on the verge of withdrawing

Can't say as though I blame him.  The stench in Trump's White House would make working in an animal hide tannery smell like a step up. ;)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/38b0bbe0-9418-3625-ad73-4f500ee80e26/ss_trump%26%2339%3Bs-navy-secretary.html

Just like in college football.....if you have a shitty coach.....you aren't going to be able to attract top talent.   I won't bore anyone with the dismalness of the Trump team again.  They are in deep shit....and it's getting deeper.
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DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1569 on: February 19, 2017, 09:37:14 PM »
Neven wrote: "If it weren't for the horrible things Trump is going to do to climate science and the environment, I'd actually root for the guy..."

I'm saddened to hear you say that, since I have so much respect for you and your work.

I live in a neighborhood with many Muslim immigrants and they have been directly demonized by Trump (he came to town to specifically demonize my neighborhood) and are feeling terrified. So are most of my Latino, African American, LBGTQ..., Native American, Asian Americans neighbors...nearly everyone, really. These are all people who are perfectly aware of the enormous "short comings" (to put it mildly) of the Obama administration, by the way.

Maybe you have to be living here inside the horror to see it. The policies he has already implemented and tried to implement are already doing great harm, and the Republicans that now control the legislature are in the process of implementing more.

I agree that the establishment needed shaking up. But really he is entrenching the Wall Street Lobbiest who most desperately need to be booted out of government and heavily regulated. We needed a Bernie revolution (or something to the left of that), not one ambitious to be to the right of the already absurdly right-wing main stream Republican Party.

So now people are trying to figure out how to get their country back and, yes, looking to some of the tactics successfully used by TeaPartiers. Shouldn't activists learn from other activist tactics that have proved successful (as long as they are non-violent)?

Anyway, thanks again for wonderful blog and forum. I hope you stay well and safe in this very uncertain future we are now facing.

You forgot women in general... D'Annunzio's followers are alive and well...

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1570 on: February 19, 2017, 10:23:35 PM »
In the way of more background on moral outrage, we should be aware that all humans are capable of atrocities, not just Corporate Democrats/Republicans, for example at the end of the European Colonial era:

The first linked article is entitled: “Dutch Imperial Past Returns to Haunt the Netherlands”

Indeed, the Dutch practically invented slavery and the word Apartheid. And BTW, I'm half Croatian too, so you might want to Google 'Ante Pavelic' and 'NDH', and post that here too.  ;)

And then we'll talk about the drones, the depleted uranium, the non-existent WMDs and the cluster bombs 200 years from now. You know, to keep the balance fair.

Quote
I'm saddened to hear you say that, since I have so much respect for you and your work.

Sorry to disappoint you. I'm just frustrated that so much attention goes to that narcissistic idiot, whereas the problems are systemic, and he's just the result of it, not the cause. Everyone is being played.

I don't believe your minority friends have all that much to fear, actually, as the USA, despite all its shortcomings and consumer culture diseases, can never, ever turn into 1930s Germany (despite the Clinton-Bush-Obama efforts to lay the groundwork). There are simply too many people against that, and the backlash is going to be huge.

But the climate and the environment, those are things that count most. And unfortunately, it's the last thing on people's minds, never mind who is president.

Quote
We needed a Bernie revolution (or something to the left of that), not one ambitious to be to the right of the already absurdly right-wing main stream Republican Party.

I agree. That was the best shot at meaningful change. When the DNC, Clinton and the media decided to screw Sanders over, everything was f**ed. Not when Trump got elected. Things were already thoroughly f**ed by then. But because Trump is so nuts, nobody is talking about it.

What is going to happen, is Trump is going to be eliminated some way, and then people will cheer, go back to sleep again, and worry whether they'll have enough money to buy the stuff ads tell them to.
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1571 on: February 19, 2017, 10:24:17 PM »
Christie tells his staff he is taking White House job.

I don't doubt it.  I think the only two left at the "bottom of the barrel" is Sara Palin and Chris Christie. I think those two DESERVE the Trump administration. ;)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/8353e38a-ca76-32c4-8604-286ddd37ccc5/christie-tells-his-staff-he.html
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1572 on: February 19, 2017, 10:35:31 PM »
Quote
Quote
I'm saddened to hear you say that, since I have so much respect for you and your work.

Sorry to disappoint you. I'm just frustrated that so much attention goes to that narcissistic idiot, whereas the problems are systemic, and he's just the result of it, not the cause. Everyone is being played.

Hey...At least we can debate each other, loudly and all, and still respect each other....We cannot and will not agree on everything.  We all have different, strong views. Friends can tell friends ( online, real and whatnot) to sod off every now and then....

Avalonian

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1573 on: February 19, 2017, 10:44:00 PM »
Just wanted to say I really appreciate Neven articulating what I feel about the whole situation, but haven't been able to quite put into words.

In my opinion, Trump is a ludicrous, disastrous choice for president; however, Clinton would have been a more subtle but equally devastating result. As soon as we had a choice between the two of them, it was obvious the system had failed. US politics desperately needs a reset, and yes, Bernie was the best chance of that.

My main worry, though, is that by demonising Trump utterly (rather than responding rationally to the practical changes that he tries to bring in), the world will end up turning  him into a true monster. It probably won't be allowed to get that far, but I can see the potential.

Don't get me wrong, here... when the policies need to be opposed (and yes, there's a loooot of them), please do oppose them, forcefully. But opposing everything he says on principle, and using rhetoric that makes him out to be the devil incarnate, may actually do nothing else than help to make that potential a reality.

Anyhow, I'm not intending to get stuck into these political discussions - just wanted to drop my opinion in.

wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1574 on: February 19, 2017, 10:45:49 PM »
"I'm just frustrated that so much attention goes to that narcissistic idiot... Everyone is being played."

Most definitely. To some extent, the focus on the last stupid or outrageous thing Trump said also distracts from the real harm being done in congress on the environmental and other fronts.

I think, though, if you were Hispanic or and Muslim (just to choose two) in my neighborhood, your would not be so sanguine about prospects. Many have already had family members taken from them by Obamas already very heavy handed ICE operations. Those will almost certainly get much worse. And the tone of the country has made all sorts of racist incidents much worse. People are afraid. The church near me that also serves as the local headquarters for the Committee on American-Islamic Relations is reconsidering, afraid of possible bombing or other violence by racists. A childcare center is also run out of the same building. These are just a few things I know about since I interact with these particular people nearly daily. You can multiply this manifold times.

I do agree that people need to be woken up. Liberals including myself were all too willing to overlook or just passively regret the ICE raids, bombings and other atrocities carried out under Obama. If Trump manages to activate and energize an effective real leftist insurgency that would be of some value. But if we lose the earth in the meantime...not much of a comfort.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1575 on: February 19, 2017, 10:52:38 PM »
Wili


Your neighbors may remember the "summary removal procedures" law that went into effect in 1996, while Bill Clinton was in office.


IIRC this law allowed an ICE agent to deport whomever he wanted to whatever country he wanted without the subject of the deportation ever being allowed access to a courtroom, or even a lawyer.


When the law passed I, as a Canadian citizen, went to the local Spanish newspaper to see if any protests were planned.


The front office was huge, with very little furniture. About twenty family groups were huddled around the walls & no one would look past his or her feet. With blond hair clipped close, a light jacket & sturdy shoes I must have appeared as one of the dreaded ICE agents.


The only other English speaker in the room was the receptionist. I approached her, asked about any protests and presented my green card to identify myself as one of those that could be affected by the new law.


Upon seeing my card she addressed the group & apparently explained that I was also a foreigner & not one of the dreaded enforcers.


Everyone collectively exhaled, mothers paid attention to their babies, fathers glanced furtively in my direction, and life began again.


The editor explained that there would be no protest as everyone was terrified of losing not just their jobs and their worldly goods, but spouses, children, parents and friends.
 
After decades of living in the States, I suddenly felt like an outsider. I felt that if Bill Clinton, the first American President that I actually respected, would allow this travesty to occur, then I should think about returning to a Country that I had never even visited as an adult.


I understand that Trump's policies are anti-immigrant. I'm also aware of the hatred spewed out by Republicans, but the most vile law was passed under Bill Clinton's watch.


http://immigrationimpact.com/2014/05/28/summary-removal-procedures-and-their-role-in-rising-deportations/


My eventual response was a return to Canada. My parents are buried in the States, my brother is a lawyer there, my wife is from Nevada & her children are spread throughout the western states.


I won't be back, and my advise to immigrants is to find some other country. America is broken.


Terry

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1576 on: February 19, 2017, 11:15:50 PM »
British Parliament To Debate Withdrawing Donald Trump’s Invite For State Visit

DO IT.  SERIOUSLY.  SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE TO TRUMP & CONGRESS.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/parliament-withdraw-trump-state-visit_us_58a9e592e4b07602ad55c35f?xapviw4ylnv7ycik9&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 02:32:20 AM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1577 on: February 19, 2017, 11:21:22 PM »
The linked video is entitled: “The Bizarre Far-Right Billionaire Behind Trump's Presidency “, and it indicates that Trump is truly representing Casino Capitalism, not the common man.


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DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1578 on: February 19, 2017, 11:22:48 PM »
Terry

You cannot absolve Republicans from the1996 fiasco of a law since the Republic Congress ( House and Senate ) write it.

Why Bill Clinton did not veto it ? Do you know any Democrat President with a Republican Congress that will willingly appear soft on Crime and not pay dearly for it?

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1579 on: February 19, 2017, 11:48:29 PM »

DrT
Sorry


Didn't intend to absolve the Republicans from blame.
 
The point I was attempting to convey was that neither party can be trusted to stand up for the rights of anyone, particularly the that "anyone" can't vote.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1580 on: February 20, 2017, 12:25:54 AM »
Terry

You cannot absolve Republicans from the1996 fiasco of a law since the Republic Congress ( House and Senate ) write it.

Why Bill Clinton did not veto it ? Do you know any Democrat President with a Republican Congress that will willingly appear soft on Crime and not pay dearly for it?
Heck, this is such a classic. Blaming stuff on Clinton or Obama, and then voting for the fucken party that is actually responsible: The Republicans.

People feeling screwed by bad economic/social policy? Heck, vote for more! Obama, Clinton not perfect? Heck, vote for those who obstructed them! Kleptocrats getting richer? Heck, vote for more of the same Reagonomics!

Sorry, stupid Donny is just the prexy you 'merricans deserve.

:-)

Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1581 on: February 20, 2017, 01:18:28 AM »
That's because I believe it can't get much worse than it already was, given how Saint Obama and his predecessors have already so thoroughly screwed the American population and the world at large.
{...}
Everything he does and screws up, can be reversed in no time.
The American population is self-screwing since Reagan. They just want it, they beg for it over and over again. GWB wasn't the last turn of this suicidal spiral. Perhaps Donald also isn't the last...

I think it can get much worse. Depends on how much time the Donald gets. Maybe in 4 years we have the United Kleptocrats of Russia, America and Exxonrosneft. Yeah, comparisons to Hitler etc. are ridiculous. But still I have to think of Chamberlain 1938 almost every day: Putin Appeasement...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
End result perhaps: No Trumputistan, but a global trainwreck of fossil fuel voodoo economics after a few years of cashing in its last fossil industrial age riches by a few criminal (Russian) and stupid (American) zillionaires. Then multiple Mad Maxes controlling the desperated hordes of demented flyover Americans and perverted Russian alcoholics, no longer held in suburbs, but freely roaming the last remnants of living Earth, burning down the last forests,... Then the worst case scenario being hominids not going extinct.

Even if things don't get that bad, I'm not that sure that anything Donald screws up can be repaired. Recent precedent example: Total deregulation of Wall Street (and no, please no Clinton blaming here) leading to the 2008 crisis, which is still not over. - And next time it's getting really catastrophic - esp. with a totally stupid Trump administration.

Some might then cheer the collapse of the system. But I doubt this would help dealing with climate change. (E.g.: Without 2008 Obama wouldn't have been forced to appease the oiligarchy.)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 01:26:21 AM by Martin Gisser »

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1582 on: February 20, 2017, 02:12:39 AM »
Is there any population that has not been self-screwing ?  Who are the fortunate ones out there? And before you say Europe, I was born and lived almost 30 yrs there. Any others?
 

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1583 on: February 20, 2017, 04:29:02 AM »
Wow, Terry. You respected Clinton.

You really were a doughy eyed idealist.

I never was
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1584 on: February 20, 2017, 04:36:51 AM »
Is there any population that has not been self-screwing ?  Who are the fortunate ones out there? And before you say Europe, I was born and lived almost 30 yrs there. Any others?
Self-screwing is of course part of the human condition. But it can be minimised. The fortunate ones are the democracies with good general education, good general health care, inequality minimizing taxation, low teenage pregnancy rate, etc. Stuff the U.S. voters are resisting since decades. Not bad enough? Vote Trump!

Well, yeah, methinks he was necessary:
If Trump manages to activate and energize an effective real leftist insurgency that would be of some value. But if we lose the earth in the meantime...not much of a comfort.
Methinks he can't make such a big difference to the carbon cycle in a few years. And if, it could be a positive one via economic collapse of the U.S. China will then send in some more solar panels and cheap electric bycicles.

wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1585 on: February 20, 2017, 05:21:10 AM »
Martin, trump just made the head of the biggest and riches oil company the earth has ever seen the secretary of state--basically in charge of the world.

Do you really think that this bodes well for the planet?

Yes, he might bring on collapse. But any hope any of us may have ever harbored of a some kind of remotely sane transition to a more sustainable world that involves any kind of justice are now...well...rather remote, shall we say.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1586 on: February 20, 2017, 06:05:06 AM »
wili, that's part of my scenario. Tillerson won't be able to sell more oil unless the price collapses, but then lots of oil producers would collapse. The banks who financed the rigs would get in serious trouble. Lots of stranded assets already around, e.g. Dakota access pipeline. Maybe a huge global economic boom would help oil short term, but then electric cars would get online sooner.

It all depends how hard/total the "collapse" will be. That's why I fear Trump: He could end as the Prelude to a New Great Depression, which might turn out the prelude to someone more Hitlerish than Trump. Or, hopefully, we get just an intensified replay of the 2008 financial crisis.

If we don't get a total collapse of industrial civilization, solar and wind will be preferred to coal because they are cheaper and local. A total collapse would be the end of the forests and the end of anything.

Dunno how well the Euro world is meanwhile isolated from Dollar risks. The Chinese will be the most resilient. Maybe the rest of the world can just leave USA and Russia behind and let them perish in insanity.

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1587 on: February 20, 2017, 06:05:38 AM »
Wow, Terry. You respected Clinton.

You really were a doughy eyed idealist.

I never was


T'was a unique experience. I saw through everyone from Ike to Obama, but Bill was a truly great conman. I've worked to get people elected, but the objective has always been to unseat someone that I thought was worse. :(


Terry

OrganicSu

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1588 on: February 20, 2017, 09:34:51 AM »
Why are all these posts blaming some party, president etc?
A quater century ago we passed the manageable level for atmospheric CO2.

WHAT do you want the president to do???

Make planes illegal?
Make cars illegal?
Make production illegal?
Make hospitals illegal?
Make planting trees compulsory, for everyone, forever?

If there's a hole in your bucket, fix it, don't make it bigger and PLEASE don't blame the president for stopping you from fixing your hole. There is and never was any law preventing it.

Pmt111500

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1589 on: February 20, 2017, 09:50:49 AM »
Why are all these posts blaming some party, president etc?
A quater century ago we passed the manageable level for atmospheric CO2.

WHAT do you want the president to do???

Make planes illegal?
Make cars illegal?
Make production illegal?
Make hospitals illegal?
Make planting trees compulsory, for everyone, forever?

If there's a hole in your bucket, fix it, don't make it bigger and PLEASE don't blame the president for stopping you from fixing your hole. There is and never was any law preventing it.

+1

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1590 on: February 20, 2017, 10:01:18 AM »
Why are all these posts blaming some party, president etc?
A quater century ago we passed the manageable level for atmospheric CO2.

WHAT do you want the president to do???



Not start a war!


Terry

Pmt111500

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1591 on: February 20, 2017, 10:25:32 AM »
The +1 was for sentiment, not an endorsement to The Loord of Trumpistan who is by chance also been selected by minority to rule over the less fortunate assholes in the country formerly known as the states.

Oops, present company of coourse excluded!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 12:02:21 PM by Pmt111500 »

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1592 on: February 20, 2017, 03:24:45 PM »
Over the next week or two.....look for journalists to "prod" into the Russia issue even more.  I also would think they WILL be asking "pointed questions" such as those below:

1) "Did anyone in the Trump campaign staff have contact with sources in Ukraine or Crimea regarding the issue of lifting future sanctions with Russia?"

2) "Was Donald Trump AWARE that anyone in the Trump campaign staff was having contacts regarding the potential lifting of sanctions with Russia....whether those contacts were made in the Ukraine, Crimea, or Russia?"

3)  "Did Donald Trump propose, encourage, or direct anyone in his campaign staff either  to have conversations with anyone in Crimea or Ukraine about DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLYthe lifting of RUSSIAN sanctions BEFORE Trump took office?"

Questions will become MORE POINTED....and they will "pin him down" for "future use."
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1593 on: February 20, 2017, 07:04:01 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “Samuel Ronan: Democrats ignored working class for years”.  The Justice Democrats think that Team Bernie is not progressive enough and are fielding their own candidate for the Feb 25th vote on the chair of the DNC.  They think that Bernie should pull his support from Ellison (a Muslim congressman) to Ronan (a 27-year old air force vet).  It will be interesting to watch whether the progressives can figure out a winning strategy without selling out to 'big money' (I note that Lenin used a young Stalin as a bank robber to help finance his plan).


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/02/samuel-ronan-democrats-working-class-years-170219133148788.html


Extract: “In January, the Justice Democrats movement was founded to challenge the Democratic Party from the left using grassroots funding and organising. The progressives are supporting 27-year-old air force veteran Samuel Ronan as their DNC candidate.
...
People have criticised Sanders for taking enthusiasm away from Clinton's candidacy. Is there any danger in you challenging Keith Ellison's candidacy?
Absolutely not. I am the better candidate. I am the more progressive figure. Just because I'm unknown doesn't change that. We could have our cake and eat it. I'm not doing this to poke the eye of the tiger.

It's the same divide and conquer candidacy, but progressives are doing it. If Ellison or Sanders were to endorse me, that would change the game … it would give voice to the American people, which is what we fundamentally lack.”

Edit: If money is the root of all evil it will also be interesting to see how robotics & the 4th Industrial Revolution impacts income distribution in the coming decades.
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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1594 on: February 20, 2017, 07:18:31 PM »
Donnie's done pretty well in the Gallup polls over the last few days.  He might want to stay on the "campaign trail" more often ;).  Apparently his lies are paying off.  I just hope Sweden recovers....

He's gone from a minus 18 on the 26th (56% disapprove vs 38% approve).....to a minus 11 today (53% disapprove and 42% approve) today.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1595 on: February 20, 2017, 07:18:39 PM »
wili, that's part of my scenario. Tillerson won't be able to sell more oil unless the price collapses, but then lots of oil producers would collapse. The banks who financed the rigs would get in serious trouble. Lots of stranded assets already around, e.g. Dakota access pipeline. Maybe a huge global economic boom would help oil short term, but then electric cars would get online sooner.

It all depends how hard/total the "collapse" will be. That's why I fear Trump: He could end as the Prelude to a New Great Depression, which might turn out the prelude to someone more Hitlerish than Trump. Or, hopefully, we get just an intensified replay of the 2008 financial crisis.

If we don't get a total collapse of industrial civilization, solar and wind will be preferred to coal because they are cheaper and local. A total collapse would be the end of the forests and the end of anything.

Dunno how well the Euro world is meanwhile isolated from Dollar risks. The Chinese will be the most resilient. Maybe the rest of the world can just leave USA and Russia behind and let them perish in insanity.

If you have not noticed, Tillerson has no more oil to sell.

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1596 on: February 20, 2017, 07:20:26 PM »
Martin, trump just made the head of the biggest and riches oil company the earth has ever seen the secretary of state--basically in charge of the world.

Do you really think that this bodes well for the planet?

Yes, he might bring on collapse. But any hope any of us may have ever harbored of a some kind of remotely sane transition to a more sustainable world that involves any kind of justice are now...well...rather remote, shall we say.

Ok, reality check... the biggest public company... Saudi, Russian and Chinese companies are way way bigger...

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1597 on: February 20, 2017, 08:12:32 PM »
I don't really enjoy listening to Slavoj Zizek for too long, but he has a good point in this interview about what liberals are doing wrong (from 14:20 onwards, especially after 15.00):



He makes an even better point after 18:30.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 08:21:22 PM by Neven »
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1598 on: February 20, 2017, 08:45:56 PM »
I don't really enjoy listening to Slavoj Zizek for too long, but he has a good point in this interview about what liberals are doing wrong.

He does not address what to do about the impacts of the 4th Industrial Revolution:

The linked article is entitled: "Cuban: Trump can't stop rise of the robots and their effect on U.S. jobs"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/02/20/cuban-trump-cant-stop-rise-robots-and-their-effect-us-jobs/98155374/

Edit, also see the following linked article entitled: ""Frontline: Fourth Industrial Revolution Takes Off, “Localizing” Site Selection Requirements".

http://www.areadevelopment.com/advanced-manufacturing/Q1-2017/4th-industrial-revolution-localizing-site-selection-requirements.shtml
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 01:58:30 AM by AbruptSLR »
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DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1599 on: February 20, 2017, 09:23:53 PM »
I don't really enjoy listening to Slavoj Zizek for too long, but he has a good point in this interview about what liberals are doing wrong (from 14:20 onwards, especially after 15.00):

He makes an even better point after 18:30.

I agree Neven, he makes good points.  The genesis of the Trump phenomenon and all other populist currents around the world is similar the era before the Great Depresion starting in the 1890's. I hope the result of those populist movements ( strengthening of national identity, turning of local population back against immigrants, militarization - there is a push to strengthen Germany's and Japan's defense capabilities ) is different than the first time around. The trajectory of these movements is eerie similar. Climate change and environmental degradation is the added stressor approaching a crescendo...