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TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2000 on: April 01, 2017, 12:09:14 PM »
ZG


What you said !!!


Terry


P.S.
BudM
Somehow your quotes got garbled, I always knew that signing off with my name would help. :)

Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2001 on: April 01, 2017, 03:11:29 PM »
So it's an investigation based on no evidence that we're allowed to see as yet, apart from "opinion, queries, rumour and hearsay", and we just have to trust the unelected officials of the US intelligence services?

Dunno about you, but where investigating whether the sitting US President and/or his people colluded with Russia to get him elected is concerned, I'd rather put my trust in those "unelected officials of the US intelligence services" than the uncredible, well-known serial liars who benefited from that possible collusion. And 17 US intelligence agencies--note: that's all of them--have affirmed that Russia hacked the election, so let's not be so hasty to say, "Well, I've seen nothing; let's look away!"

So far as Clapper, note his comments:

Quote
"Not to my knowledge," Clapper said, based on the information he had before his time in the position ended.

Hardly the open-and-shut case some might want to see, is it? Most of the bombs that have been dropped have been dropped since January 20, so Clapper wouldn't have been apprised any more than would you or I. And as for Morell, here's a little tidbit from that same NBC piece:

Quote
Morell said... that he continues to believe that the Russian campaign of hacking, leaking and fake news, which the CIA says was designed to hurt Clinton and help Trump, was a hugely consequential action to which the U.S. has not sufficiently responded.

Putin, he said, has suffered no consequence for his unprecedented interference in the U.S. election.

"This has never happened before in American history on this scale, never not even close. And Putin did not pay any price for this — nothing, zero."

So neither man you quoted is suggesting--as are you, as is Trump, as are most Republicans--that we just move along.

...[T]he CIA has already said there's nothing to investigate.

No, they have not. Morell said so, but then again, Morell wasn't the acting director of the CIA when the Russian campaign to influence the election occurred. In fact, he hasn't been the AD since March of 2013.

From the outside it certainly looks as if there is just smoke feeding your outrage, and it's coming from one side of the US political circus in a deliberate attempt to sabotage and unseat a democratically elected president, which is why this also looks like just another US regime change operation ... except this time it's operating on the US domestic audience against its own government!

Look, you and others are free to spin all this any way you wish. You're free to ridicule and dismiss and discount, and to cry that we should move on because, gosh darnit, Trump is POTUS. That's your right, I suppose. And if some were in charge, they'd signal that our once-democratic electoral processes are no more, and that hostile foreign intervention into our elections--and, likely, collusion--is just the way things will be from now on. But I'm not okay with that, nor will I ever be. At any rate, it's been just two weeks since Comey stated that Trump was under investigation. Two weeks. It's far too early to throw in the towel, my friend. Patriotism and love of country demands the truth be known, and if getting to that truth takes time, you'll just have to live with it.

Democracy be damned!!

Hey, I think you just coined the slogan for Trump's 2020 reelection campaign! :)

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2002 on: April 01, 2017, 05:39:02 PM »
Turnabout is fair play (or evil must be fought, or what goes around comes around by Toles):
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2003 on: April 01, 2017, 06:49:33 PM »
wili has cited the linked article entitled: "The Fires of History Yet Rage — Climate Change and the Authoritarian Assault on Liberal Democracy" in the "Trump Administration Assaults on Science" thread and it is an excellent article and I encourage people to read the whole article & not just my extracts below.  The article acknowledges that after the fall of the "Evil Empire", that liberal democracy (e.g.: globalists, etc.) got lazy and failed to "improve ourselves and our societies enough".  Thus while there was an illusion that authoritarianism had been splintered, liberal democracy failed to understand that the various shards would metastasize, "becoming smarter, more nimble, more in your face, and more linked to global monetary and information power centers".  Thus when Neven expresses his frustration about what he calls "Corporate Democrats", what I see is frustration with the human failing (see the first & third attached images) to remember the lesson learned from the past that the struggle against amorality (whether right, or left, wing amorality) is a continuous fight and that past lessons should energize oneself in the fight for yet unresolved challenges (see the second image):

https://robertscribbler.com/2017/03/31/the-fires-of-history-yet-rage-climate-change-and-the-authoritarian-assault-on-liberal-democracy/

Extract: "Some have said that history ended with the fall of Soviet Russia and the subsequent virtuous spread of liberal democracy. Now, with a fossil-fueled dictator at the Kremlin conducting information wars to topple western democracies and with the various and many-fanged monsters of climate change howling at the gates of a world besieged, that notion seems both ignorant and laughable.

Pshaw — history ended? Clearly not.

You may today be cajoled — through the internet — by none other than oil billionaire, petrostate dictator, former KGB agent, democracy saboteur, and Trump-supporter Vladimir Putin who’d try to use his supposedly legendary charm (or the merciless intimidation of his online agents and surrogates) to convince you of the false notion that the climate is changing but humans aren’t the cause (see — Putin Defends Climate Deniers and Looks Forward to Arctic Melting). If you’re one of those strong-willed enough to wrench your mind from the grasp of a man and his army of 15,000 information warfare trolls spreading misinformation aimed at the advancement of his destructive wealth and power, you could use the same powerful tool to actually directly contact real scientists — who’d tell you that about 100 percent or more of present warming is now being caused by human beings. So you could then give Putin a very justified big, fat middle finger salute.

No. History didn’t end. But the nature of conflict and power certainly changed in a way that rendered old responses obsolete and ineffective. We solved one global problem and by failing to improve ourselves and our societies enough, we invited another. And we are starting to see that we are in far more dire straits than we ever were before as a result."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

mati

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and so it goes

DrTskoul

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TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2006 on: April 01, 2017, 09:26:03 PM »
Wow!


Quite a string of screeds.


Let's assume that Jim is correct & that the last election results are invalid because of foreign interference.
How do we now proceed.


If we toss out Trump, don't we also have to toss everyone who came in on his coattails?


This obviously wouldn't be accepted to those deplorables who had, through deception, rallied to his cause. A new flash election is obviously needed, and fortunately a precedent exists.


When Yanukovych was ousted a snap election was held, but those regions where Yanukovych was most popular were excluded from the vote. In the US this could be carried out by arraigning for Texas to succeed, and for portions of the old south to be deemed as too dangerous a region to attempt an election in.


When the snap election is over the question becomes whether we first deal with an enemy half way around the world that has nukes, Texas secessionists that have guns, or Southerners that are equally unable to defend themselves faced with modern artillery.


We know the direction taken in Ukraine, but the US is unique and exceptional, so she may well chart a different course.


A constitutional change will be needed so that election results can be cleared by a majority of the Intelligence Agencies. Perhaps those found to be reading Sputnik, or viewing RT or the BBC should lose their franchise, either for one particular voting cycle or permanently.


Brighter minds than mine may decide that none of this is necessary if we just have each candidate vetted by the Intelligence Community prior to any campaigning. Those that are found to be unreliable will simply not be allowed to campaign, nor will their votes be counted.


Whatever system is chosen, after it's been shown that the present one has failed, will be known as American Democracy. It may not be very democratic, but neither is the Electoral College.


Terry

budmantis

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2007 on: April 02, 2017, 01:38:59 AM »
ZG


What you said !!!


Terry


P.S.
BudM
Somehow your quotes got garbled, I always knew that signing off with my name would help. :)

Thanks Terry and thanks for your kind words re: my post about healthcare.

Havent been posting much lately, my wife and I are vacationing in the desert Southwest, currently in Carlsbad, NM.

BudM

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2008 on: April 02, 2017, 02:00:16 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Trump leaves without signing executive orders, ignores Flynn questions".  It sounds like The Donald is getting rattled, when the DOJ reports to The Donald and he tweets that Flynn should be granted immunity (by the DOJ?).

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-leaves-without-signing-executive-orders-amid-flynn-questions/

Extract: "“Mr. President, today with your tweet, were you trying to tell the Justice Department to grant immunity to Michael Flynn?” asked Garrett, the White House pool reporter for the order signing. “Were you trying to do that, Mr. President? Was that your intention, Mr. President, sir? Mr. President, was that your intention, Mr. President? Was that your intention, sir?”"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2009 on: April 02, 2017, 05:15:37 AM »
BudM


I lived the majority of my adult life in the Southwest and know you'll enjoy your stay. 


ASLR


As far as I know Trump has encouraged granting Flynn immunity. Hardly the stance that a guilty party would take.


Trump is destroying the EPA while committees are busily investigating Russian malfeasance. Save the EPA, Save Science, Save the World. Prioritize, prioritize, prioritize - or end up with overcooked egg on your face.


Terry

Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2010 on: April 02, 2017, 08:51:52 AM »
Here's an interesting read re Putin and Russia from a US journalist, it's what I would recognise as conforming to the historical facts of the matter concerning Putin's Russia from a pragmatic realist or realpolitik point of view.

Christopher Caldwell (Weekly Standard) - How to Think About Vladimir Putin
Imprimis, March 2017 • Volume 46, Number 3
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/think-vladimir-putin/

I offer it merely as a balance to the Russian caricatures posted here that, from my perspective, look like completely deranged neoconservative Russophobic propaganda with little to no basis in reality.

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2011 on: April 02, 2017, 02:34:12 PM »
ASLR

As far as I know Trump has encouraged granting Flynn immunity. Hardly the stance that a guilty party would take.

Terry

Trump is not just any party, he is the head of the executive branch to which the DOJ and the FBI report.  Thus it is inappropriate for him to give legal advice to Flynn regarding criminal matters that the DOJ and the FBI are investigating the Trump Administration on.

Edit:  As the GOP (& Trump) have already politicized the Supreme Court selection process, maybe you are implying that politicizing the DOJ & the FBI is only natural.

Edit2: Or perhaps as Trump is the nominal head of the GOP and Nunes is part of the GOP, maybe you are implying that Nunes should work cooperatively with Jeff Sessions for the House Intelligence committee should grant Flynn immunity thus circumventing.undermining Comey's criminal investigation.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:04:07 PM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2012 on: April 02, 2017, 03:33:43 PM »
I offer it merely as a balance to the Russian caricatures posted here that, from my perspective, look like completely deranged neoconservative Russophobic propaganda with little to no basis in reality.

Meh. One man's "completely deranged neoconservative Russophobic propaganda" is another's "desire to get to the absolute truth no matter how uncomfortable the search for it may make those threatened by it." But if Trump is indeed America's equivalent to Putin and is, as Caldwell's fawning praise suggests, an equally angelic, dignified, statesmanlike national savior who's done absolutely no wrong in his climb to the top, he has nothing to fear from any investigation, and he will have the last laugh at all his silly, time-wasting non-supporters. But either way, we'd know the truth. And who could possibly be against that?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 05:57:56 PM by Jim Pettit »

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2013 on: April 02, 2017, 04:18:26 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Trump team wanted military vehicles in inaugural parade: report".  Maybe Donald's inauguration team was thinking along the lines of the Red Square parade for Putin's review.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/325154-trump-team-wanted-military-vehicles-in-inaugural-parade-report

Extract: "President Trump's inauguration team wanted to show off the U.S. military during his inaugural parade, even going so far as to ask the Pentagon for photographs of "military tactical vehicles" that could be used in the parade …"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2014 on: April 02, 2017, 06:12:26 PM »
Quote
But either way, we'd know the truth. And who could possibly be against that?
[/size][/b]

Yes....WHY WOULD ANYONE be against finding the truth?  There is nothing BAD for society in finding the truth.  And the sooner.....the better for EVERYONE, except those who are guilty....and those who have been wrong and not able to admit it. ;)

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2015 on: April 02, 2017, 06:54:58 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Lawsuit Accusing Trump Of Inciting Rally Violence Gets Green Light From Judge".  Apparently, judges do not accept Trump's underlying belief that "truth" is determined by power rather than by evidence.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-rally-violence-lawsuit_us_58e051dde4b0c777f787fd8b

Extract: "“It is plausible that Trump’s direction to ‘get ‘em out of here’ advocated use of force,” a federal judge said."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2016 on: April 02, 2017, 07:13:19 PM »
"The Clinton accuser who could bring down Trump."  Yes....who knew that Paula Jones could help bring down Trump.  What goes around.....comes around.

The article describes the Paula Jones case against Bill Clinton, and how Paula Jones case could provide ammunition to those fighting Trump.   And how many of the people involved in working WITH Paula Jones....are now in the Trump camp (Kellyanne Conway and her husband for example).  VERY interesting read.  Kellyanne is going to have some "spinning" to do.

Quote
"Chances are, when President Trump — who once labeled Jones “a loser” in a 1998 NBC News interview — first resurrected her case to help bolster his candidacy, he never contemplated the role it could play in unraveling his presidency."

Quote
Which brings up a fascinating side note: Many of the same folks who will be helping to defend Trump in these matters have some very close ties to the group of young conservatives — who call themselves “the Elves” (as in Santa’s hidden magical workers) — that spent years lobbing legal grenades at President Clinton from the other side. Case in point: George Conway III, a high-powered D.C. lawyer at the prestigious firm Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz, and — you guessed it — husband of senior Trump adviser and “alternative facts” proponent Kellyanne Conway. Conway helped write Jones’ Supreme Court brief and also penned an influential op-ed in the Los Angeles Times at the very beginning of the Jones ordeal arguing that Clinton was on shaky legal ground. Granting the president immunity “would place presidents above the law,” Conway observed, and such a situation “smacks of the privilege of a sovereign or an autocrat — not a president of a democratic republic.”
http://www.ozy.com/pov/the-clinton-accuser-who-could-bring-down-trump/75411
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2017 on: April 02, 2017, 09:28:19 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “Schiff: Trump's calling news 'fake' should set off 'alarm bells'.
This indicates that letting the Trump Administration (that is under investigation) spin the information that the House Intelligence Committee will, or will not, review is a bad idea.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/schiff-trumps-calling-news-fake-set-off-alarm/story?id=46524480


Extract: “The top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee said he disagrees with panel chairman Devin Nunes' characterization of intelligence documents he saw at the White House as pointing to potential
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2018 on: April 02, 2017, 10:31:17 PM »
Gentlmen


First a confession;
I neither read nor view any American media, & damn little Canadian.


The level of vitriol on this thread seems to be on an upsweep. Is this indicative of the level of viciousness found in American media, or is this simply a local phenomena, more indicative of the views of a few ASIF posters ?


I wasn't asking to form some "gotcha" question but rather because if it is indicative of what's passing as MSM then I personally find it very frightening. If it's just a few on this list that are raising the din I'm surprised, but not alarmed.


There are a few here involved in planning life after ecological collapse.
If I should start prepping for life after the loss of American democracy, I'd appreciate a heads up. I have no idea what my response, if any, would or should be.




Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2019 on: April 02, 2017, 11:02:08 PM »
Terry,

If you watch the linked ~11 minute video, you can decide for yourself how polarized American politics have become (say as compared to the Watergate era), wherein Ted Koppel of CBS tells Sean Hannity, to his face, that Hannity's Fox 'news' broadcasts are bad for America:

http://www.cbs8.com/story/35015721/cbs-news-a-polarized-america

Extract: "Increasingly, we Americans occupy alternate universes, with very little common ground - only battling perceptions of reality. A Pew study finds 81% of voters say they cannot agree with the other side on basic facts, and in this age of the Internet and cable TV, very little is out of bounds. In this CBS News Sunday Morning video report, senior contributor Ted Koppel talks with Fox News host Sean Hannity, New York Times executive editor Dean Baquet, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer, and Norman Ornstein of the American Enterprise Institute about the state of political discourse today."

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2020 on: April 02, 2017, 11:24:47 PM »
The level of vitriol on this thread seems to be on an upsweep. Is this indicative of the level of viciousness found in American media, or is this simply a local phenomena, more indicative of the views of a few ASIF posters ?

I wasn't asking to form some "gotcha" question but rather because if it is indicative of what's passing as MSM then I personally find it very frightening. If it's just a few on this list that are raising the din I'm surprised, but not alarmed.

Oh, the US (and most) of its citizens will survive the Trump regime. (Unless he succeeds in launching a nuclear weapon, which has a low but non-zero chance of happening). But just because we don't face imminent destruction doesn't mean we have no cause for concern.

The Los Angeles Times--hardly a far-left rag--is out today with the first of a four part series on the Trump problem (Our Dishonest President). To quote it in its entirety would of course run afoul of Fair Use laws, but I think I can safely post three paragraphs that succinctly outline the problems that the editorial board of the Times--and, in fact, a majority of Americans--see with Trump:

Quote
1. Trump’s shocking lack of respect for those fundamental rules and institutions on which our government is based. Since Jan. 20, he has repeatedly disparaged and challenged those entities that have threatened his agenda, stoking public distrust of essential institutions in a way that undermines faith in American democracy. He has questioned the qualifications of judges and the integrity of their decisions, rather than acknowledging that even the president must submit to the rule of law. He has clashed with his own intelligence agencies, demeaned government workers and questioned the credibility of the electoral system and the Federal Reserve. He has lashed out at journalists, declaring them “enemies of the people,” rather than defending the importance of a critical, independent free press. His contempt for the rule of law and the norms of government are palpable.

2. His utter lack of regard for truth. Whether it is the easily disprovable boasts about the size of his inauguration crowd or his unsubstantiated assertion that Barack Obama bugged Trump Tower, the new president regularly muddies the waters of fact and fiction. It’s difficult to know whether he actually can’t distinguish the real from the unreal — or whether he intentionally conflates the two to befuddle voters, deflect criticism and undermine the very idea of objective truth. Whatever the explanation, he is encouraging Americans to reject facts, to disrespect science, documents, nonpartisanship and the mainstream media — and instead to simply take positions on the basis of ideology and preconceived notions. This is a recipe for a divided country in which differences grow deeper and rational compromise becomes impossible.

C. His scary willingness to repeat alt-right conspiracy theories, racist memes and crackpot, out-of-the-mainstream ideas. Again, it is not clear whether he believes them or merely uses them. But to cling to disproven “alternative” facts; to retweet racists; to make unverifiable or false statements about rigged elections and fraudulent voters; to buy into discredited conspiracy theories first floated on fringe websites and in supermarket tabloids — these are all of a piece with the Barack Obama birther claptrap that Trump was peddling years ago and which brought him to political prominence. It is deeply alarming that a president would lend the credibility of his office to ideas that have been rightly rejected by politicians from both major political parties.

Again, that's from the staid editorial board of the Los Angeles Times, not some rabid, spittle-flecked leftist website. In short, any "vitriol" and "viciousness" you see aimed at him here--and in the literal millions who've already marched against him, and in the tens of millions who've been newly awakened to what happens when they surrender to voter apathy, and aim to do something about it--isn't normal, garden-variety political whining from the losing party. It's not typical Right-vs-Left, they-said-we-said rhetoric. No, it's real and profound fear over what may happen to our country. I can understand why some, especially non-Americans, might look at all the yelling as just so much hysterical, baseless, ideologically-driven overkill. But--and I think time will proves us correct--it shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

In closing, one more paragraph from that LA Times piece:

Quote
What is most worrisome about Trump is Trump himself. He is a man so unpredictable, so reckless, so petulant, so full of blind self-regard, so untethered to reality that it is impossible to know where his presidency will lead or how much damage he will do to our nation. His obsession with his own fame, wealth and success, his determination to vanquish enemies real and imagined, his craving for adulation — these traits were, of course, at the very heart of his scorched-earth outsider campaign; indeed, some of them helped get him elected. But in a real presidency in which he wields unimaginable power, they are nothing short of disastrous.

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2021 on: April 02, 2017, 11:39:19 PM »
In closing, one more paragraph from that LA Times piece:

Quote
What is most worrisome about Trump is Trump himself. He is a man so unpredictable, so reckless, so petulant, so full of blind self-regard, so untethered to reality that it is impossible to know where his presidency will lead or how much damage he will do to our nation. His obsession with his own fame, wealth and success, his determination to vanquish enemies real and imagined, his craving for adulation — these traits were, of course, at the very heart of his scorched-earth outsider campaign; indeed, some of them helped get him elected. But in a real presidency in which he wields unimaginable power, they are nothing short of disastrous.

I note that the primary reason that there are currently so many White House leaks to the main stream media about Team Trump's behavior (such as the quick leaks about the Nunes affair), is that many more traditional GOP staffers are honestly afraid of Team Trump's behavior and they believe that the media represents the best check against Team Trump's unbridled thirst for power.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2022 on: April 02, 2017, 11:48:52 PM »

I note that the primary reason that there are currently so many White House leaks to the main stream media about Team Trump's behavior (such as the quick leaks about the Nunes affair), is that many more traditional GOP staffers are honestly afraid of Team Trump's behavior and they believe that the media represents the best check against Team Trump's unbridled thirst for power.


An interesting, and encouraging, split in the party.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2023 on: April 03, 2017, 12:06:18 AM »
Jim P


You misread my concern. It's not the horrors of a Trump presidency that I fear. We, (some of us), survived two Bushes and a Nixon and a Truman.
It's the undemocratic backlash against Trump that I fear. When millions protested the Vietnam war we weren't protesting the democratic process but rather the bloody excesses that the democratic process had allowed.
What is occurring now is an attempt to bring down a sitting president without the aid of the ballot box. What is occurring now is a rush to war against the second most heavily armed country in the world (read a few of McCain's screeds).
These are the basis of my fears. When it's accepted that democracy no longer works, what will take it's place?


Terry

mati

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2024 on: April 03, 2017, 12:32:59 AM »
These are the basis of my fears. When it's accepted that democracy no longer works, what will take it's place?
Terry

This is the goal of manafort, Trumps puppet master.  Anarchy.  Revolution.
Then a re-writing of the constitution under martial law.

and so it goes

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2025 on: April 03, 2017, 12:57:44 AM »
Quote
You misread my concern. It's not the horrors of a Trump presidency that I fear. We, (some of us), survived two Bushes and a Nixon and a Truman.
It's the undemocratic backlash against Trump that I fear. When millions protested the Vietnam war we weren't protesting the democratic process but rather the bloody excesses that the democratic process had allowed.

If you lived through Nixon....then you should realize that impeaching (or forcing Trump to resign because he knows he WILL be impeached) IS PART OF THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.  The rules of impeachment are there....and they have been used before.  Nixon was forced out.....with Clinton, the votes weren't there.  And everyone lived through it.

As an Independent.....I was never a big supporter of Clinton or Trump.  It's just that I would have preferred to have "bad" instead of "horrible".  When "horrible" from an Independent.....turns into "horrible" for moderate Republican's, or "Trumpees" that have now started to wake up and see what he really is like......you have a Trump that will likely be thrown out of office.  But first....the PUBLIC will have to continue to "turn on him".  His approval is now 38% in Sunday's daily Gallup poll (down 2% today) and that will likely have to get into the 20's.  As I have stated before....I have TOTAL CONFIDENCE that Donnie can get into the 20's.  I just hope we get him "out of here" before he does something REALLY damaging (North Korea...Syria.....Iran.....etc).

I look for April to be a "bad month" for Donnie.  More marches......the media continuing to treat him more harshly and calling him out as a liar.  The LA Times article was pretty straight forward and brutal.  That will continue to happen with growing regularity.

Friday when he forgot to sign the Executive Order.....you could begin to see the face of someone who knew his time as president WAS GOING TO END ON BAD TERMS.  That was the look of a defeated man.



He is LITERALLY a sociopath....and sociopath's don't belong in the oval office.





FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2026 on: April 03, 2017, 01:22:14 AM »

An interesting, and encouraging, split in the party.

Terry

The linked article is entitled: “Is the GOP at its tipping point? Congressional Republicans might be getting ready to dump Trump.”

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/02/is-the-gop-at-its-tipping-point-congressional-republicans-might-be-getting-ready-to-dump-trump_partner/

Extract: “Three prominent Republicans on Capitol Hill broke with the Trump administration over allegations of collusion with Russia, a sign that the once-solid congressional support for the new president is fracturing under the weight of new revelations.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2027 on: April 03, 2017, 02:16:06 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “Watching the hearings, I learned my “Bernie bro” harassers may have been Russian bots”.  This is just one more example that the kleptocrats of the world have absolutely know intentions of playing by the rules (whether in an election, in the stock market, media reporting, climate science, etc.); as they think that it is smart to cheat and leave 'others' (whether Democrats, investors, or future generations) holding the bag.

http://shareblue.com/watching-the-hearings-i-learned-my-bernie-bro-harassers-may-have-been-russian-bots/


Extract: “Democrats may not have been as divided as we were led to believe during the 2016 election season. I received daily abuse from "pro-Bernie" Twitter accounts I now know were not real people, but Russian bots.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2028 on: April 03, 2017, 04:01:48 AM »
Amazingly America's vaunted 17 intelligence agencies are unable to replicate Russia's election meddling as CIA favorite loses in Ecuador.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-ecuadoreans-choosing-president-close-race-46528194


Seems as though our fears for Assange's future can be laid to rest, at least until the next Ecuadorian election.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2029 on: April 03, 2017, 04:06:49 AM »
Buddy


I had no idea you were working to have Pence elevated to the presidency.
At that time will you be willing to concern yourself with the destruction of the EPA?


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2030 on: April 03, 2017, 04:21:33 AM »
I'm not.   Pence is toast as well..... ;D
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2031 on: April 03, 2017, 04:52:36 AM »
Amazingly America's vaunted 17 intelligence agencies are unable to replicate Russia's election meddling as CIA favorite loses in Ecuador.

Terry

I can't tell whether you think: (a) The Deep State is real but incompetent; (b) The Trump Administration is less competent than past US Administrations; or (c) That you get points from your base for being sarcastic (as Trump got from his base).

ASLR

Edit: Or perhaps this is evidence that Trump owes Assange a favor (from the 2016 election) and ordered the vaunted 17 US intelligence agencies to stand down ;).
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 05:11:47 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2032 on: April 03, 2017, 05:17:28 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Analysis: Trump’s Low Poll Numbers Limit Influence Over Unruly Republicans".  Perhaps The Donald doesn't understand where political power comes from.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/analysis-trump-s-low-poll-numbers-limit-influence-over-unruly-n741706
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2033 on: April 03, 2017, 05:24:09 AM »
Amazingly America's vaunted 17 intelligence agencies are unable to replicate Russia's election meddling as CIA favorite loses in Ecuador.

Terry

I can't tell whether you think: (a) The Deep State is real but incompetent; (b) The Trump Administration is less competent than past US Administrations; or (c) That you get points from your base for being sarcastic (as Trump got from his base).

ASLR


A - 50%
B - Probably, but they're just getting started.
C - Can I collect these points for free air-miles?


My point was that it's difficult to swing elections, even when you are a huge country & the target is small and weak.
I remember a few when Reagan threatened continuing gorilla warfare unless they voted in his stooge, and the stooge still lost. Obama threatened English voters, telling them they'd lose their trade agreements if they voted for Brexit, but they voted to leave despite the threat.
Yet I'm somehow supposed to believe that the Evil Empire cost Hillary her presidency.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2034 on: April 03, 2017, 05:39:07 AM »
I'm not.   Pence is toast as well..... ;D


Is it a second impeachment you have in mind then?
How does President Paul Ryan sound. or will President Pence get to name another VP before the toaster pops him out?


Just when can we start complaining about climate change denial and gutting the EPA?


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2035 on: April 03, 2017, 11:40:54 AM »
I'm not.   Pence is toast as well..... ;D


Is it a second impeachment you have in mind then?
How does President Paul Ryan sound. or will President Pence get to name another VP before the toaster pops him out?


Just when can we start complaining about climate change denial and gutting the EPA?


Terry

Gerald Ford nominated Nelson Rockefeller to be his V.P. after Nixon resigned, and per the following Wikipedia article, he became the 41st V.P. of the US on Dec. 19 1974; after extensive Congressional confirmation hearings.  So I guess that a President Pence could pick his own new V.P.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Rockefeller#Vice_Presidency_.281974.E2.80.931977.29


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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2036 on: April 03, 2017, 12:27:05 PM »
I'm not.   Pence is toast as well..... ;D


Is it a second impeachment you have in mind then?
How does President Paul Ryan sound. or will President Pence get to name another VP before the toaster pops him out?


Just when can we start complaining about climate change denial and gutting the EPA?


Terry

Gerald Ford nominated Nelson Rockefeller to be his V.P. after Nixon resigned, and per the following Wikipedia article, he became the 41st V.P. of the US on Dec. 19 1974; after extensive Congressional confirmation hearings.  So I guess that a President Pence could pick his own new V.P.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Rockefeller#Vice_Presidency_.281974.E2.80.931977.29


Any ideas on how this will help the cause?  Always assuming that your cause is somehow related to mine.


My cause, for what it's worth, is to minimize global conflict in an effort to somehow achieve global cooperation in reducing atmospheric CO2. I recognize that there is little chance of success, but also that an attempt must be made.
If replacing Trump with Pence and his chosen VP, or warming up the new cold war will help, I'll join your crusade. But first you have to explain the end game.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2037 on: April 03, 2017, 12:32:30 PM »
But first you have to explain the end game.


Terry

The end game is to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America; which means rule by law, not by man (as you seem to be implying by ignoring that criminal investigations are underway and which take time).
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2038 on: April 03, 2017, 12:39:25 PM »
Quote
Is it a second impeachment you have in mind then?
How does President Paul Ryan sound. or will President Pence get to name another VP before the toaster pops him out?

Just when can we start complaining about climate change denial and gutting the EPA?

Terry....I was responding to YOUR STATEMENT that said you lived through Nixon and Clinton.  I was pointing out, that YOU LIVED THROUGH TWO IMPEACHMENTS.  Neither went through the ENTIRE PROCESS.  Nixon quit right before it would have been voted on......and Clinton's was voted on, but the votes weren't there, so he stayed in office.

So....we STILL had a democracy after that.  And we will STILL have a democracy after Trump gets impeached.  I think he will resign before any vote....like Nixon....although I expect him to resign earlier in the process than Nixon did.  I expect he will resign before too much shit hits the fan.  Then....president Pence can pardon him.

But I don't think Pence makes it either.  He will be gone as well.  Unlike Gerald Ford during the Nixon presidency...I think Pence KNOWS what went on.

If you look back at what happened to Nixon.....we had about a 4 month window WITHOUT a vice president.  I think it is unlikely that Trump stays to "the bitter end"....he want's to be pardoned.  And that is why Pence will also either be impeached OR he will resign eventually as well.

That is just WHAT I SEE when I look at the things we now know...as well as all the smoke that we have to try and look through.  It's NOT what I want.  The "ultimate" president could by Ryan if both Pence and Trump leave at the same time....OR....it could be someone nominated by Pence if Trump is to leave first.

We have to play with the cards we are dealt......  As far as "complaining about climate change", I have been complaining about that for a long time.  We are on the "same team" in that regard.

 
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2039 on: April 03, 2017, 12:55:19 PM »
Here's a good short article about John Dean......who was caught up in the Nixon fiasco.  He came clean during the investigation.  Read his comments about Trump.....keeping mind that WE ARE ONLY 10 WEEKS INTO HIS PRESIDENCY. 

Quote
Dean admitted that Trump gives him “nightmares,” remarking, “We’ve never had a President like this. I’m kind of happy every morning when I wake up to see he hasn’t blown up some part of the world.”

“I see it as unfolding disaster at this point,” he ruefully added.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/watergates-john-dean-half-the-population-right-now-isnt-sure-whether-trump-is-insane/
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2040 on: April 03, 2017, 01:36:52 PM »
Here are some interesting things that I think are LIKELY to come out of the Trump presidency/impeachment:

1)  Trump has done a GREAT JOB of getting the Democrats "riled up".  In fact....I would go one step further, he is likely turning some Independents into Democrats (NO...not me).  Republicans who are "hanging onto Trump" will be in trouble.  The Dems have a good shot at gaining a seat in the House this month with Osoff in the 6th District.  As long as the Dem's don't go back to Hillary....they should see some significant gains in the coming years. 

2)  Universal healthcare is much more likely NOW to come into play in the future.  It may be 5 years from now....but it is being put back into play.  States like New York and California are at the leading edge of that movement.

3)  FOX News will be brought down a notch or two by Trump.  There are other things at work on FOX as well, namely (a) global warming is going to taint FOX for the next 10 years, (b) FOX has now become the "sexual harassment channel" between both Bill O'Reilly and Roger Ailes scandals.  "Slimy is as slimy does"...... :o

4) Election reform:  After a commission gets done reporting on the Trump fiasco....I also expect to see some election reforms.  There is NO REASON for every presidential candidate, VP candidate, US Senate candidate, and US House of Reps candidate.....not to show the last 10 years of their tax returns BEFORE THEY CAN RUN FOR OFFICE.

I think reforms may also extend into the amount of vetting that HAS TO BE DONE for cabinet positions BEFORE they can be voted on.  That was a big CLUSTER F this time around....and it is now clear that we can't leave it up to the candidate to do adequate vetting.

Also....reform about what a president has to do regarding his business interests NEEDS TO BE CLAMPED DOWN ON AND SPELLED OUT.

So.....some good things will come out of the Trump fiasco as long as we can avoid a major confrontation before he is sent on his way.



« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 03:14:25 PM by Buddy »
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2041 on: April 03, 2017, 03:51:23 PM »
One other thing the Trump impeachment/resignation will likely do.....is to provide some rather uncomfortable moments for Putin.

When Trump is forced out.....that will likely embolden the Russian dissidents who already aren't too happy with the corruption in Russia.  Seeing the people in the US removing their corrupt and incapable president.......will certainly add some momentum for the Russian's to do the same.  I would expect more and more challenges in Russia.....and more force to be used by Putin to try and keep order.
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2043 on: April 04, 2017, 02:38:11 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “Blackwater founder held secret Seychelles meeting to establish Trump-Putin back channel “.  The FBI is looking into this meeting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/blackwater-founder-held-secret-seychelles-meeting-to-establish-trump-putin-back-channel/2017/04/03/95908a08-1648-11e7-ada0-1489b735b3a3_story.html?utm_term=.9967e8dabb36

Extract: “The United Arab Emirates arranged a secret meeting in January between Blackwater founder Erik Prince and a Russian close to President Vladi­mir Putin as part of an apparent effort to establish a back-channel line of communication between Moscow and President-elect Donald Trump, according to U.S., European and Arab officials.

The meeting took place around Jan. 11 — nine days before Trump’s inauguration — in the Seychelles islands in the Indian Ocean, officials said.”
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2044 on: April 04, 2017, 06:43:34 AM »
But first you have to explain the end game.

Terry
The end game is to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America; which means rule by law, not by man (as you seem to be implying by ignoring that criminal investigations are underway and which take time).


I'm sure that you actually care more about AGW than the law of any land.


If I'm right, what we need to do is to figure out how to save the American scientific establishment from disembowelment at the hands of corporatocracy. How to keep Americas promises re. the Paris Accords, and how to dismantle the denialist disinformation campaign. No small task.
Other countries also need guidance, but without America being on board, all will be for naught.


There is no path to Democratic rule for at least 4 years, so influencing Republicans and Trump is the task at hand. It's difficult, but not impossible. We only need to look at the progress the LGBT movement made in a very short space of time.


When gays started coming out en mass, congressional families found that they all knew someone affected by the old laws. As climate change disrupts farmers, fishermen and forestry, local politicians need to be made aware of the cause. Soon no Congressional district will be without politicians whose district hasn't been negatively affected, and if we've done our job, they'll know the cause.


Huge moneyed interests will be aligned against us, but opposing interests such as coastal cities, destination resorts and outdoor recreation and sports companies can be expected to help. I don't think that spending our limited capital chasing international conspiracies, or electioneering irregularities, helps the cause.


This is why I was asking to see your end game.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2045 on: April 04, 2017, 12:48:09 PM »
Quote
The linked article is entitled: “Blackwater founder held secret Seychelles meeting to establish Trump-Putin back channel “.  The FBI is looking into this meeting.

I'm sure it was just a "coincidence".....nothing going on there.  How many coincidences is that now?  I'm losing count...... ;)

If it they look like a rat....talks like a rat....and walks like a rat.....
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2046 on: April 04, 2017, 12:57:35 PM »
The new IBD/TIPP poll out yesterday was none too kind to Donnie.  Keep in mind....that IBD is an investment publication that leans just to the right of Attila The Hun.  The approve/disapprove numbers are 34/56.

WASHINGTON (IBD) – Just 34% of the public approve of the job President Trump is doing, as his support among Republicans and independents tumbles, according to the April IBD/TIPP poll. Fifty six percent disapprove of the job he’s doing. Approval ratings for a president haven’t been this low since President Bush’s last months in office.

Quote
Last month, 40% of independents approved of the job Trump is doing; just 29% approve today. Among Republicans, Trump’s job approval is 74%, which represents a 14-point decline from last month.

The latest IBD/TIPP poll was taken from March 24-30, and includes responses from 904 people across the country, giving it a margin of error of +/-3.3 percentage points. The national sample of adults had 34% Democrats, 30% Republicans and 36% Independents.

I'll be interested in seeing where the Gallup Poll numbers are this coming weekend.....

https://yournews.com/2017/04/03/128508/trump-approval-plunges-amid-russia-inquiry-obamacare-repeal-failure/
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2047 on: April 04, 2017, 01:40:41 PM »
One other thing the Trump impeachment/resignation will likely do.....is to provide some rather uncomfortable moments for Putin.

When Trump is forced out.....that will likely embolden the Russian dissidents who already aren't too happy with the corruption in Russia.  Seeing the people in the US removing their corrupt and incapable president.......will certainly add some momentum for the Russian's to do the same.  I would expect more and more challenges in Russia.....and more force to be used by Putin to try and keep order.

Hi Buddy,

your reality distortion bubble is what concerns me most, as this world desperately needs more realists than fantasists. From Gallup re Putin's steady 81% popularity amongst his fellow Russians:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/207491/economic-problems-corruption-fail-dent-putin-image.aspx

His popularity seems to be inversely proportional to the popularity of the US and its western allies including its paid for Russian 'progressives'. The Russians see US corruption in the NATO encroachment, the Ukrainian disaster, the support for Sunni Salafist terrorism in Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Iraq and Syria, the economic sanctions warfare that was meant to destroy their economy, and so on.

This whole Trump fiasco is classic US homegrown McCarthyism, lowest common denominator agitprop for your domestic audiences only,  and yet you expect the Russian populace to fall for it the same way as you lot? Do you ever wonder what effect your Russophobic ramblings might have on non US participants in this forum?

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2048 on: April 04, 2017, 02:07:03 PM »
By the same token ( of reported popularity ) Mugabe is an amazing uber president...

Such popularity usually correlates with autocratic strongmen...

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2049 on: April 04, 2017, 02:27:36 PM »
One of the things I think may be going unnoticed.....is that we may be at a "peak" of the "populist" view in the world.  Now....certainly it is tricky and wrought with peril to "call a top" in ANYTHING, because you never know when the "top is in".....until you have passed it and can look back and point it out.  But some of the following items will certainly give us more information to determine if we are near (or past) the "peak" in the nationalist movement:

*The coming elections in France and Germany will provide more information as to where we are in this process.

*What will happen to Trump in coming weeks/months and where is his popularity/unpopularity headed?

*Have Democrats in the US reached a "turning point" and realize some of their mistakes of the past 30 years?  The election in the 6th District in Georgia this month is only 1 data point.....but it is an important one, because that District has been solidly Republican in a red state, and it may now be in some question.

*Was Brexit and the Trump win the "pinnacle" of the nationalist/populist movement?  Were the very large marches AGAINST TRUMP right after the election the start of the "awakening" of the non-populists/non-nationalists?

*Will the movement against Putin persist or grow?

We won't know FOR SURE until the next few years have passed....but I suspect we may have ALREADY REACHED THAT PINNACLE, and are likely to head towards a LESS populist/Nationalist view in coming years.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 05:19:37 PM by Buddy »
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