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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2100 on: April 07, 2017, 02:29:28 PM »
What do you think Donald Trump's "twin brother" thinks he should have done?
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

gerontocrat

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2101 on: April 07, 2017, 02:31:45 PM »
Perhaps it is necessary to :
- gather some facts,
- look wider than Syria.
Here goes.

The Syria Action:-
- On the campaign trail Trump kept on complaining about advance notice being given to those about to be clobbered.
- He has shown that he is willing and able to take military action:-
      - without seeking a UN resolution,
      - without regard to international law or custom,
      - without formal approval from the US Congress,
      - at very short notice,
      - with the most cursory notification with NATO and the USA's allies.
The response has been qualified approval from Congress, NATO and allies, and a fairly muted protest from Russia.

CHINA and NORTH KOREA
- Trump has stated several times that if China can't rein in N. Korea then the USA will,
- This morning Trump is having breakfast with Xi Jinping,
- (Did Trump tell the Chinese president about the Syria action yesterday or was it a morning surprise), 
- North Korea will be on the menu.

SPECULATION:-
Trump must regard the action against Syria a big fat win. Unilateral action rules, OK?

What happens if China is unable or unwilling to choke off North Korea's nuclear and missile programs (especially ICBMs and miniaturisation of nuclear warheads) ?

A big fat airstrike on N Korea ?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2102 on: April 07, 2017, 03:42:57 PM »
That Syria sarin gas attack doesn't make sense. Why would the Syrian government do this, now that they're starting to push back IS etc?

Here's another Jimmy Dore Show video. Dore makes a lot of good points, please watch to the end, even if you don't agree:

Evidence Suggests S-Y-R-I-A G-A-S ATTACK Is False Flag

! No longer available
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2103 on: April 07, 2017, 04:41:32 PM »
Quote
Here's another Jimmy Dore Show video. Dore makes a lot of good points, please watch to the end, even if you don't agree:

Evidence Suggests S-Y-R-I-A G-A-S ATTACK Is False Flag

1)  Whether Al-Qaida OR the Syrians actually used the chemical weapons.....neither Jimmy Dore OR any of us will know.  Certainly the only people who ACTUALLY KNOW, are (1) the people that did it, and (2) anyone that was able to track and prove who actually did it.

2)  Jimmy Dore is saying that Al-Qaida did it in order to have the US come in and take out the Assad regime.  That is CERTAINLY a possibility (as well as the Assad regime being the perpetrator is also a possibility).  Again....we don't know.

3)   Jimmy Dore has apparently not been watching much of Chris Hayes or Rachael Maddow.  He is on a jihad against the "mainstream media". Maddow and Hayes are NOT "war hawks" AT ALL.  I don't watch much of Chris Hayes....but Maddow is anything BUT a warhawk.  She doesn't want us in there at all.  I know Jimmy has to do some marketing....and he has to create a "story" that is different from the "mainstream media"......but he is out over the tips of his skiis on this one.

4) Are there "people in government" who want perpetual war?  Dwight Eisenhower knew this back in the late 1950's/early 1960's.  Tell me something I didn't already know.  Some of them will always be there.  But to hear Jimmy Dore....you would think that the people at MSNBC are working with Boeing/Lockheed/etc to mastermind perpetual war.  Again....I think he's over the tips of his skiis.

5) By doing a "relatively COSMETIC AND SURGICAL STRIKE" Trump did the following:  (a)  made himself look like he is a tough guy with Syria and others....and tried to create the perception of "room" between he and Putin.  Putin...in his very moderate response to the attack, also did the same.  And I expected as much (b) unlike Jimmy Dore's warning of WWIII just around the corner.....I don't view that with much of a likelihood at all (c) Trump will get a nice bounce out of this for the short term (months?)....until the next big shoe(s) on the RussiaGate centipede drops.   As well.....this will create the "illusion" of more distance between Putin and Trump.

The Russian's were in bed with Trump during the election.......and visa versa.  I view this as a "production" by "Trump Enterprises".  Nothing more.

COULD there be other ramifications going forward in other instances?  Absolutely.  For instance....Trump viewing this as a "big victory" for himself.....puffing up his already inflated ego, and thinking he can do this elsewhere (for REAL), when in fact the outcome against another foe who is not "in on the game" are quite different (Korea...Iran...etc).  Yes....that could definitely happen.  Then Trump really would "screw the pooch."

Again.....Donnie is a magician (con man).....DON'T WATCH WHAT THE MAGICIAN WANTS YOU TO WATCH....LOOK AT WHAT HE DOESN'T WANT YOU TO LOOK AT.




 

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2104 on: April 07, 2017, 04:46:23 PM »
The potential firing of Bannon and/or Preibus would be about as shocking as the sun rising again tomorrow morning.  Over the next year + you're going to see a BLOODBATH of firings/quitings.

http://resistancereport.com/politics/steve-bannon-reince-priebus/

Donnie won the election....and now he has a horrendous mess to clean up.  One, I don't think he will be able to accomplish without leaving office himself.



FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2105 on: April 07, 2017, 05:12:28 PM »
Two "forces of nature" continue to come together over time:

(1)  RussiaGate (greed being the force of nature)

(2) global warming:  OK...so burning of fossil fuels ISN'T a force of nature...but the feedback effects ARE ;)

On #1...Donnie is literally going to have to be a magician/con man to "keep everyone off his butt" in the coming months.  I expect him to EVENTUALLY take the track of "yea....we probably did some things that we wouldn't do again...but it really wasn't illegal....and look how great we're doing....so just forget about it."  You'll see this line of thought once the heat gets turned up on the investigations.   We're a long way from that now....but something along that line is coming.  He's guilty...he knows it.....and soon he'll know that others know it.  THEN....he will try to figure out how to get people to "live with it."

On #2....Donnie has no idea that mother nature CONTINUES TO REACT BADLY THIS YEAR....AND....that the public is noticing and they don't like it.  He doesn't have a clue...we'll see what happens on April 22nd and April 29th

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2106 on: April 07, 2017, 08:46:21 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "The US just attacked Syria. So where's Congress?"  Nature abhors a vacuum, so if Congress does nothing, is Donald Trump free to attack any nation on Earth that he feels inclined to do so?

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/defense/327832-the-us-just-attacked-syria-so-wheres-congress

Extract: "There was one giant actor missing in this entire story, however: The U.S. Congress.
If you were looking for the legislative branch — the actual branch of government that possesses the power to declare war under our constitutional system of government — to fulfill its role as an active participant, you might as well stop reading now."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2107 on: April 07, 2017, 09:26:54 PM »
Agreed that the latest gas attack is uncorroborated. It reminds me of the other provocation which the last emperor refused to act on and evidence later turned up implicating the Saudis and the Turks. And the latest attack echoes Bush (the lesser) preemptive attack on iraq before evidence could be gathered disproving the WMD scare.

One thing this attack does is reveal who the war lovers are, both in the USA and elsewhere.

sidd

jai mitchell

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2108 on: April 07, 2017, 10:21:11 PM »
Quote
Chris Hayes or Rachael Maddow.  He is on a jihad against the "mainstream media". Maddow and Hayes are NOT "war hawks"

BWAHHAHHAAAHAAAA!!!!  ok just stopped reading there buddy.

when you can post ONE SINGLE guest for rachael or chris that is OPPOSED to military intervention (and no, not going to congress first DOESN'T COUNT) then your belief might be *almost* justified. 

And yes, Jimmy Dore is missing the entire possibility that a third party actor may have done this atrocity to re-ignite the war and remove Assad.  There are many interests who would like to see this, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel. . .

It makes absolutely no sense that Assad would do this on the eve of peace talks with international actors in London, NONE.

-----edit-----
exhibit 1 note how Rachael Maddow starts immediately beating the drum of war, conflating Iran and Hamas with the attack providing further cover for the military action. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 10:27:06 PM by jai mitchell »
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Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2109 on: April 07, 2017, 10:34:32 PM »
I've heard several right-wing, pro-Trump sources--among them the PizzaGate dude--claim that the Syrian sarin attack was a hoax. That goes against what ground truth is telling, but that may already be a moot point: after Trump's illegal and impetuous attack against a sovereign nation last evening, Assad is clearly quivering in his jackboots so much that he paused for almost an entire minute before ordering another round of chlorine gas attacks today on Latamin and Hama (casualties unknown).

In addition to his mountain of other terrible qualities, Trump is a hotheaded, trigger-happy moron with a big, powerful, and expensive armed forces at his fingertips. And he's got reason to use it: the only way to stop his rapid ratings dive is to distract with missiles! and bombs! and fighter jets! and TV reporters in Kevlar! and lots of distant booms! So he'll do that.

Of course he will.

Some of the talk is that perhaps last night's extremely ineffective strike (ineffective as verified by today's Reuters report that Syria launched strikes from that very same base this afternoon) was a ruse set up by Putin, Assad, and Trump: Putin can prop up his puppet by making him look strong; Trump can get a needed ratings boost; Trump and Putin can appear to be "at odds", helpful for Russiagate; and Assad can look like a badass by continuing to kill his own people in "defiance" of the US.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Well, except for the dead kids.

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2110 on: April 08, 2017, 12:51:28 AM »
That Syria sarin gas attack doesn't make sense. Why would the Syrian government do this, now that they're starting to push back IS etc?

Here's another Jimmy Dore Show video. Dore makes a lot of good points, please watch to the end, even if you don't agree:

Evidence Suggests S-Y-R-I-A G-A-S ATTACK Is False Flag

! No longer available


Thanks so much.
The DK is strong today. They will figure it out, though it may be far too late by then to do anything about it.
Remember the Maine, the Lusitania, the Gulf of Tonkin? Why wait decades before admitting that you were wrong. Do it now and avoid the rush.


When it comes to the children remember the immortal, and immoral words of Madam Albright when asked if the deaths of 500,000 children were worth the price. "This is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it."
She was wrong, Trump is wrong, and you are wrong if you think this will play out well.

Read a little Chomsky, watch a little Dore, don't be remembered as one who favored the actions of this buffoon.


Terry

sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2111 on: April 08, 2017, 01:20:54 AM »
level headed comparative summary of gas attacks in Syria. The links are worth following.

http://necpluribusimpar.net/chemical-attack-syria/

and an interesting article from foreignpolicy detailing ISIS/Al Nusra/godknowswho seizure of Syrian chemical weapons in 2012, prior to the Syria deal to get rid of them.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/17/how-the-islamic-state-seized-a-chemical-weapons-stockpile/

sidd
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 02:00:42 AM by sidd »

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2112 on: April 08, 2017, 02:25:41 AM »
level headed comparative summary of gas attacks in Syria. The links are worth following.

http://necpluribusimpar.net/chemical-attack-syria/

and an interesting article from foreignpolicy detailing ISIS/Al Nusra/godknowswho seizure of Syrian chemical weapons in 2012, prior to the Syria deal to get rid of them.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/17/how-the-islamic-state-seized-a-chemical-weapons-stockpile/

sidd


Very good article, although he's far too willing to harbor the possibility of Assad being responsible for the 2013 attack.
FWIW:
Wikipedia has had 8 edits re. the Ghouta attack so far today. History is being (re)written as we sleep.


Terry

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2113 on: April 08, 2017, 02:27:25 AM »
level headed comparative summary of gas attacks in Syria. The links are worth following.

http://necpluribusimpar.net/chemical-attack-syria/

and an interesting article from foreignpolicy detailing ISIS/Al Nusra/godknowswho seizure of Syrian chemical weapons in 2012, prior to the Syria deal to get rid of them.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/17/how-the-islamic-state-seized-a-chemical-weapons-stockpile/

sidd


Very good article, although he's far too willing to harbor the possibility of Assad being responsible for the 2013 attack.
FWIW:
Wikipedia has had 8 edits re. the Ghouta attack today. History is being (re)written as we sleep.


Terry

Do you trust Wikipedia for such "facts"?

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2114 on: April 08, 2017, 02:30:00 AM »
Politics is the prime files of cognitive bias.  Looking up to sources or voices that confirm our inner beliefs comforting one's soul...  like mold's love of humidity and shadow... none is immune...

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2115 on: April 08, 2017, 02:34:45 AM »
level headed comparative summary of gas attacks in Syria. The links are worth following.

http://necpluribusimpar.net/chemical-attack-syria/

and an interesting article from foreignpolicy detailing ISIS/Al Nusra/godknowswho seizure of Syrian chemical weapons in 2012, prior to the Syria deal to get rid of them.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/17/how-the-islamic-state-seized-a-chemical-weapons-stockpile/

sidd


Very good article, although he's far too willing to harbor the possibility of Assad being responsible for the 2013 attack.
FWIW:
Wikipedia has had 8 edits re. the Ghouta attack today. History is being (re)written as we sleep.


Terry

Do you trust Wikipedia for such "facts"?
Not on your life !!
I do at times peruse the page history to get a feel for who is messing about. It was much more informative when you could track the sending computer back to it's source. The CIA had been quite busy "setting the record straight", until that operation was exposed. I'm sure they haven't done so since.


Terry

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2116 on: April 08, 2017, 02:36:21 AM »
Politics is the prime files of cognitive bias.  Looking up to sources or voices that confirm our inner beliefs comforting one's soul...  like mold's love of humidity and shadow... none is immune...


Ramen


Terry

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2117 on: April 08, 2017, 02:37:39 AM »
level headed comparative summary of gas attacks in Syria. The links are worth following.

http://necpluribusimpar.net/chemical-attack-syria/

and an interesting article from foreignpolicy detailing ISIS/Al Nusra/godknowswho seizure of Syrian chemical weapons in 2012, prior to the Syria deal to get rid of them.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/17/how-the-islamic-state-seized-a-chemical-weapons-stockpile/

sidd


Very good article, although he's far too willing to harbor the possibility of Assad being responsible for the 2013 attack.
FWIW:
Wikipedia has had 8 edits re. the Ghouta attack today. History is being (re)written as we sleep.


Terry

Do you trust Wikipedia for such "facts"?
Not on your life !!
I do at times peruse the page history to get a feel for who is messing about. It was much more informative when you could track the sending computer back to it's source. The CIA had been quite busy "setting the record straight", until that operation was exposed. I'm sure they haven't done so since.


Terry

Some unfortunate souls do... some unfortunate souls thrive in conspiracy theories too much too...

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2118 on: April 08, 2017, 11:23:36 AM »
Fun with Math


The Tomahawk missiles apparently cost ~$1.5M to replace and 59 were fired. Thus a total of ~$88.5M.
Only 23 reached the target, so ~$38.5 for each that reached it's mark.
10 deaths seems a reasonable casualty figure, so ~$8.8M / body.


However Raytheon stock is up 7% for the year!


The low success rate of <40 %, may however cause other countries to favor cheaper, more accurate Russian or Chinese armament.


BTW - Any idea whether the 36 that missed did any unintended damage, possibly they just landed in the sea.


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2119 on: April 08, 2017, 04:04:48 PM »
The linked article indicates that the Pentagon is investigating whether Russia was complicit in the Syrian government's chemical attack last Tuesday.  If they find more evidence supporting this thesis; this would increase the possibility that Putin orchestrated this chemical attack in order to give Trump an opportunity to act "presidential" via the cruise missile response (thus Putin might [or might not] be trying to help his puppet in the White House).

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/08/middleeast/syria-strikes-russia-donald-trump/

Extract: "US officials have said the Pentagon is looking for any evidence that the Russian government knew about or was complicit in Tuesday's chemical attack.

A US military official told CNN the Pentagon was examining specifically whether a Russian warplane had bombed a hospital in Khan Sheikhoun five hours after the initial chemical attack, with the aim of destroying evidence.

A US defense official said intelligence indicated that a Russian drone flew over the hospital that was treating victims of the chemical attack, prior to the site being bombed."
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2120 on: April 08, 2017, 05:30:27 PM »
So, it's Putin who is bringing freedom and democracy to the Middle East? Can't be all bad then.  ;) :D
The enemy is within
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2121 on: April 08, 2017, 08:21:52 PM »
The linked article & image show that gerrymandering in the USA over the past 20-years has effectively crippled democracy in America, thus setting the stage for the rise of kleptocracy:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/07/politics/house-swing-seats-congress/index.html

« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 02:24:58 AM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2122 on: April 08, 2017, 08:25:03 PM »
So, it's Putin who is bringing freedom and democracy to the Middle East? Can't be all bad then.  ;) :D

On the other hand if The Donald is actually in Putin's pocket, then The Donald will not truly weaken Assad, but will allow Russia to continue to prop-up their client state ???.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2123 on: April 08, 2017, 08:41:54 PM »
"There is no possible way to put lipstick on this pig."

That was David Rosenberg describing Fridays monthly jobs report for March.  There are two areas of the economy that are soft right now.....consumers and travel INTO the US (because Europeans, Canadians, and Latinos are avoiding it like the plague since Donnie took office).

http://www.businessinsider.com/jobs-report-march-bizarre-rosenberg-2017-4

IF the economy DOES weaken in the coming months.....that will not be good for Donnies poll numbers which is his #1 concern right now (other than his immense personal concern for "the babies" in Syria ;)).

 
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2124 on: April 08, 2017, 09:25:59 PM »

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2125 on: April 08, 2017, 09:26:24 PM »
On the other hand if The Donald is actually in Putin's pocket, then The Donald will not truly weaken Assad, but will allow Russia to continue to prop-up their client state ??? .


You leave very little room for movement, by any of the players.


Assad, who has by all accounts been defeating ISIS, Al Qaeda, and the "Moderate" Cannibal Horde, must pull back, or Trump is Putin's Puppet.


Putin, who has a mutual defense pact with Syria, must drop Assad as a "partner", or Trump is Putin's Puppet.


Trump, who said he sent a limited strike against Assad as punishment for using chemical weapons. must continue attacking Syria &/or Russia until Russia ends her defense of Syria, or Trump is Putin's Puppet.


As a guess, I'd postulate that Big Oil has deeper pockets than Putin, and that Donald took up residency when he named Pruitt to head the EPA.


Terry

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2126 on: April 08, 2017, 09:36:58 PM »
So, the choice is:

a) Syria is client state of Russia
b) Syria is client state of US/Qatar

There is no difference between the two. And all because of oil.

But everyone is using this mess for some end or other.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2127 on: April 08, 2017, 10:19:54 PM »
Jeffrey Sachs make the argument for the USA leaving the middle East:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/04/02/military-should-get-out-middle-east/k0lcRcUl9u9nJkUAkFIh6I/story.html


sidd
You again demonstrate an uncanny ability to extract very good information from the MSM.
Congratulations, and Thanks again.


Terry

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2128 on: April 08, 2017, 10:41:02 PM »
Jeffrey Sachs make the argument for the USA leaving the middle East:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/04/02/military-should-get-out-middle-east/k0lcRcUl9u9nJkUAkFIh6I/story.html

Thanks, sidd. That was truly a great read, and something I believe everyone on the ASIF would agree with.
The enemy is within
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TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2129 on: April 08, 2017, 10:51:19 PM »
So, the choice is:

a) Syria is client state of Russia
b) Syria is client state of US/Qatar

There is no difference between the two. And all because of oil.

But everyone is using this mess for some end or other.


I don't often find fault with your posts.


In this instance one side is a sovereign state being attacked by arguably the most vicious regional groupings imaginable, while being propped up by a foreign nation seeking a return to normalcy.


On the other side we have Al Qaeda, ISIS, and The Moderatestm, whose leader famously posted a video of himself eating the heart of a vanquished foe. These exemplary freedom fighters are backed by Turkey, Qatar, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and a foreign nation attempting to influence Europe's fuel supply.


While on one level it is all about oil, on a more fundamental level it's all about who is willing to play by the rules. Vietnam was certainly never a "client state" WRT Russia. Why would Syria become so?


Terry

DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2130 on: April 08, 2017, 11:54:40 PM »
Normalcy?? Far from it...as Neven said everybody is using the conflict for their own benefit...

Quote
Russia has a vital interest in controlling gas supplies to Europe, where Gazprom sells 80 percent of its gas. The European Union has succeeded in diversifying supplies in recent years (in part through LNG imports) and seeks to develop additional pipelines from Central Asia and the Middle East to further reduce its reliance on Russian gas. New pipelines from Qatar and Iran could take away market share from Russia, but more importantly reduce prices below what the Russian state budget needs to survive. 

Russia has shown a willingness to go to war over such issues before. It fought the war in Georgia to frustrate Western plans to export gas from the Caspian Sea region to the West via Azerbaijan and Georgia to Turkey. It went to war in Ukraine in order to control a vital transit state between Russia and Europe. And it is reasonable to expect that Russia will go down fighting to prevent a Qatari pipeline from crossing Syria on its way to Europe and to make Iranian exports reliant on Russian support. It also explains why Russia has chosen to target Qatari- and Saudi-funded rebel groups in Syria in its bombing campaign, and why Russia’s involvement has only bolstered the Gulf States’ resolve.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/syria/2015-10-14/putins-gas-attack

mati

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2131 on: April 09, 2017, 12:10:32 AM »
So, the choice is:

a) Syria is client state of Russia
b) Syria is client state of US/Qatar

There is no difference between the two. And all because of oil.

But everyone is using this mess for some end or other.

For Russia, oil is not the driving force, rather it wants the naval/military base on the mediteranean sea to compliment it's black sea power base in the crimea.  Luckily there are no large russian popluations in the middle east, or else Putin would be in there big time "rescuing" them from persecution by taking over their govenment.
and so it goes

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2132 on: April 09, 2017, 12:39:21 AM »
Normalcy?? Far from it...as Neven said everybody is using the conflict for their own benefit...


From your quote:
The bolded indicate the normal flow of gas into Europe... Hence normalcy.



Quote
Russia has a vital interest in controlling gas supplies to Europe, where Gazprom sells 80 percent of its gas. The European Union has succeeded in diversifying supplies in recent years (in part through LNG imports) and seeks to develop additional pipelines from Central Asia and the Middle East to further reduce its reliance on Russian gas. New pipelines from Qatar and Iran could take away market share from Russia, but more importantly reduce prices below what the Russian state budget needs to survive. 


Europe has depended on Russian gas since the depths of the cold war. It's the normal state of affairs. You may not approve of the normal trade routes, but changing them indicates a move away from the norm.


When Walmart comes to town this tends to alter normal trade. Some think it's wonderful, some thinks it stinks. Everyone agrees that the normal trade patterns have been disrupted.


Terry


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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2133 on: April 09, 2017, 08:23:26 AM »
"...good information from the MSM ..."

I think that is actually impossible. The media in the USA is controlled by a small handful of rich people; slightly less so elsewhere. One is lucky to find sense, most often appears in the cracks between their controls. Attention to logic and coherent historical awareness helps detect these, but usually not.

" ... something I believe everyone on the ASIF would agree with."

I doubt that. Many proponents of Empire here.

sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2134 on: April 09, 2017, 10:54:23 AM »
  "Luckily there are no large russian popluations in the middle east, or else Putin would be in there big time "rescuing" them from persecution by taking over their govenment."
Russia has always aligned itself with the orthodox christian community, in that area, when they've been threatened by Islam, whether it was the Turks, Arabs or Iranians. Look at what happened to the Armenians when Russia was too weak to help.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2135 on: April 09, 2017, 11:45:12 AM »
" ... something I believe everyone on the ASIF would agree with."

I doubt that. Many proponents of Empire here.

Perhaps, but the solution seems to be to move away from fossil fuels, and that's certainly something everybody on this forum agrees on.

In that sense it's better if the pipelines from Qatar/Iran aren't built because it will keep prices up and Russia strong, two incentives (for the EU) to invest even more in renewables. So, in this case we should be cheering for Putin, right? Much better for AGW mitigation.

What's so weird, is that a lot of people who hate Trump, say that at least he's doing the right thing by shooting missiles at Syrian targets (because of the sarin gas attack (false flag IMO)). But because it's impossible to say that Trump does a good thing, a contortion act follows in which it is postulated that Trump does it because Putin has ordered him to do so, or to draw attention away from the Russiahack-investigations.

Whereas it could be so simple: Demand that the US withdraws its troops from everywhere, and spend all that money on education, healthcare, infrastructure and renewables. Another great stick to beat Trump and the Republicans with, and win landslide elections in the coming decade with a progressive, grass-roots agenda. But no, Russia, Russia, Russia...

We're being played, folks. Where's the real resistance?
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2136 on: April 09, 2017, 04:14:06 PM »
What's so weird, is that a lot of people who hate Trump, say that at least he's doing the right thing by shooting missiles at Syrian targets (because of the sarin gas attack (false flag IMO)). But because it's impossible to say that Trump does a good thing, a contortion act follows in which it is postulated that Trump does it because Putin has ordered him to do so, or to draw attention away from the Russiahack-investigations.

Count me among those who absolutely do NOT think he did the right thing by shooting missiles. It was the wrong thing, and it was for the wrong reason.

It was a whole week ago--last Sunday--that The Official Well-Thought Out Trump Regime Stance On Syria was this: Assad is the democratically-elected leader of Syria, so we're not going to focus on getting rid of him, and will instead let the Syrian people decide his fate. Two days later--two days later--there had been a 180-degree turn, and The All-New And Revised Official Trump Regime Stance On Syria was that the Assad government was illegitimate and had committed so many atrocities against his people for so many years that he simply had to go at any cost (and nevermind that that stance was itself diametrically opposite Trump's oft-tweeted opinion from a few years back that we needed to stay the hell out of Syria, but that's another story).

So in response? A non-surprise, forewarned, prime-time, $100 million launch of missiles that hit a handful of hangars and planes at a single base in the middle of the Syrian desert, crippling it for roughly, oh, six hours, or just long enough for Assad to sweep up a bit, restock the vending machines in the pilots' lounge, refuel the dozens of planes that weren't hit, and launch another CW attack against his own people.

Heckuva job, Clownie...

So why the violent reversal? Why the turn on a dime? Just what random thought popped into Trump's tiny little head and made him toss out everything he and we knew and rewrite the Trump Middle East Doctrine in less time than it takes most people to get back their dry cleaning? Maybe he was moved by the sight of the little kids killed in the gas attack, though Trump wasn't equally moved by the hundreds gassed back in 2013, nor was he moved by the sight of a dead refugee boy laying on the beach a few months back, or by the sight of refugee camps teeming with desperate women and children. So what was it? I mean, really? What was it?

But no, Russia, Russia, Russia...

There wouldn't be so much "Russia, Russia, Russia" were there not a long paper trail connecting Trump's November "win" to Putin. Period. People aren't making up this shit; it really happened, which is why so many official invesigations are underway.

Look. Trump is a child. An impetuous, illegitimate, liar. He lies to the nation. In nearly every sentence. Every day. On every subject. So if we the people cast a cynical eye on his self-conflicting statements and actions, he has no one to blame but himself.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2137 on: April 09, 2017, 04:49:50 PM »
I agree with the sentiment of Jim Pettit except that I think that al Assad needs to go the same way of Gaddafi.

The tipping point that started the conflict in Syria was the Arab spring. While Northern African "springs" were not met with atrocities, the small attempt at a spring in Syria was met with deadly force. Once deadly force is used certain boundaries are crossed that can not be walked back. The Syrian civil war will continue while Assad remains.

The Syrian war is asymmetric. There is one strong side, the Syrian government and multiple , unorganized small sides whose biggest thing in common is the enemy of their enemies, al Assad. In such case only one side can possibly bring peace, that is the strong unified side. But al Assad is not willing to give up power, he rather resorts to gassing people. Removing him brings new players into the process with higher chances for peace.

I only see one way the US can remove Assad ASAP. A big ole Missile. If Putin had any interest on peace, he could remove al Assad by less destructive means.

 but but but Putin.

Now, bombing an old airport and few fuel depot's was just a stupid warning, with no obvious strategic or tactical advantage. If they would have removed al Assad instead of wasting good ammo, we would have a way to peace. 


I want to make one thing clear. Donald Trump did not know he was working for Putin. It is impossible for a man of such ego to do such a thing. However, Trump is easily blinded by the prospect of profit, like a Ferengi.  His policies were given to him by Putin through his associates.  The policies were cleverly represented as potential profits for Trump. I think at some point he will realize he was duped.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 06:24:23 PM by Archimid »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2138 on: April 09, 2017, 07:49:32 PM »
I don't often find fault with your posts.


In this instance one side is a sovereign state being attacked by arguably the most vicious regional groupings imaginable, while being propped up by a foreign nation seeking a return to normalcy.


On the other side we have Al Qaeda, ISIS, and The Moderatestm, whose leader famously posted a video of himself eating the heart of a vanquished foe. These exemplary freedom fighters are backed by Turkey, Qatar, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and a foreign nation attempting to influence Europe's fuel supply.


While on one level it is all about oil, on a more fundamental level it's all about who is willing to play by the rules. Vietnam was certainly never a "client state" WRT Russia. Why would Syria become so?


Terry

While the linked article entitled: "Syria gas attack and Donald Trump’s military response don’t add up – unless Putin orchestrated it", comes from an anti-Trump website and does not offer any solid proof of a Putin-Trump connection, as least in response to your last question, it does explain the logic of the case that Putin may have orchestrated to gas attack (and in the opinion of the anti-Trump author suggests that this scenario is the least convoluted of all the other unsubstantiated theories).

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/syria-gas-attack-and-donald-trumps-military-response-dont-add-up-unless-putin-orchestrated-it/2210/

Extract: "This is a hell of an accusation to make on my part. I’m suggesting that Vladimir Putin orchestrated a gas attack in Syria so Donald Trump could strike back in minimal and symbolic fashion, and that Putin told Trump ahead of time to go ahead and begin building up troops in advance, and that Trump went along with the horrifying stunt. And yet this is – incredibly – the least convoluted explanation that makes any logical sense."
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2139 on: April 09, 2017, 08:28:58 PM »
Quote
There wouldn't be so much "Russia, Russia, Russia" were there not a long paper trail connecting Trump's November "win" to Putin. Period. People aren't making up this shit; it really happened, which is why so many official invesigations are underway.

A lot of the shit may be made up. We don't know yet, because there still isn't any hard evidence, even though it's been months now and is in fact a continuation of the Clinton campaign.

But never mind that. Whether or not it's made up, whether or not it is suddenly no longer okay for plutocrats and oligarchs to team up all around the world without any allegiance to the flag or nation-state (even though globalisation has been around for a while now, making the rich mega-rich), is another discussion.*

My point is that it distracts from the real issues. It's a continuation of the Clinton campaign that had no vision, no ideas, no policies that benefited the American people. All it had, was: Look at how horrible this man is. We are not Trump.

That campaign was a disaster, and so it is highly likely that a continuation of the campaign will be a disaster too.

In the meantime the Democratic Party is refusing to come clean and is adamant about serving donors rather than the people. Instead of formulating ideas and a vision to win back the electorate, all energy goes towards suppressing those in the Democratic Party who do talk about those things. Suppression through distraction. And Russia is a part of that. Bombing Syria is a very welcome addition.

The focus should be on healthcare, education, getting money out of politics, getting the US out of the Middle East, turning back intelligence surveillance, reducing poverty, reigning in Wall Street, dealing with AGW. You know, things that inspire people and make them want to go out and vote for you.

Russia, Syria, they're all squirrels to rile people up, divide them, disperse all energy. This is still the same personality BS that the mainstream media loves to report on so much. And don't forget that almost half the votes went to Trump. By trying to get rid of him this way, instead of showing how bad he is, you will not solve the problem that got him where he is in the first place. In fact, you'll probably make it worse, because the next populist asshole is going to be less stupid and capitalize on these losing strategies (which is why they are being pushed).

You're not going to win this way. Sanders is showing you how you can win.

* here's a short Jimmy Dore video to go with this paragraph, called Remember When Dems Ridiculed Anti-Russian Propaganda?:

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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2140 on: April 09, 2017, 08:39:42 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “Donald and Vlad are still a deadly combo: Either as partners or rivals, they’re waging a war against civilization”.  Clearly to Donald, Vlad and their ilk, E Pluribus Unum means nationalistic tribalism, rather than one-world.

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/09/donald-and-vlad-are-still-a-deadly-combo-either-as-partners-or-rivals-theyre-waging-a-war-against-civilization/

Extract: “Modern democracy is a child of the Enlightenment, but Trump and Putin’s opposition goes much deeper than simply being a counter-Enlightenment position. The term “counter-Enlightenment,” first popularized by Isaiah Berlin in the 1970s, has mutated considerably since then. While critiques of the Enlightenment have by now been mounted from almost everywhere along the political spectrum, most of these are not attacks on reason per se, but on how critics see the Enlightenment as having conceived of reason and deployed it.

Trump and Putin, however, can be seen as countering something much earlier and more basic: their shared vision of anti-liberal democracy isn’t just opposition to the 18th century. It’s more like opposition to the 8th century — before Christ. What is sometimes called the Axial Age, roughly from 800 to 200 BCE, is when most major world religions and philosophies first emerged. It was the age of Buddha, Confucius, Lao-Tze, the Upanishads, the Hebrew prophets, Greek natural science and philosophy and so on. Jesus and Muhammad both came after this period, but built on foundations laid at this time.


Until now. No, I don’t think Donald Trump conceives of himself as a god-king. But he does have a record of never having admitted to doing or being wrong.  He couldn’t even pretend, for appearance’s sake, to be a good Christian in this regard. And no, I don’t think Trump wants to reintroduce human sacrifice or slavery. But there’s his long, murky, record of predatory sexual behavior, publicly lusting over young teenagers, and his modeling agency that has been accused of practices treating young women as property. He encouraged his followers to “knock the crap” out of protesters who would ultimately be forced to “bow down to him,” as Omarosa so charmingly put it.  Add to this Trump’s desire to recast America’s diverse immigrant character — “E pluribus unum” — into one homogeneous mass and his profound hostility to Axial Age science, and suddenly it’s not a stretch at all to argue that what Trump really wants is a return to the barbarism and tyranny of the pre-Axial Age world, while hanging onto the consumer goods and luxuries produced by our civilization.”
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2141 on: April 09, 2017, 08:50:01 PM »
While the linked article entitled: "Syria gas attack and Donald Trump’s military response don’t add up – unless Putin orchestrated it", comes from an anti-Trump website and does not offer any solid proof of a Putin-Trump connection, as least in response to your last question, it does explain the logic of the case that Putin may have orchestrated to gas attack (and in the opinion of the anti-Trump author suggests that this scenario is the least convoluted of all the other unsubstantiated theories).

This is what I meant when I said that: "What's so weird, is that a lot of people who hate Trump, say that at least he's doing the right thing by shooting missiles at Syrian targets (because of the sarin gas attack (false flag IMO)). But because it's impossible to say that Trump does a good thing, a contortion act follows in which it is postulated that Trump does it because Putin has ordered him to do so, or to draw attention away from the Russiahack-investigations."

Quote
http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/syria-gas-attack-and-donald-trumps-military-response-dont-add-up-unless-putin-orchestrated-it/2210/

Extract: "This is a hell of an accusation to make on my part. I’m suggesting that Vladimir Putin orchestrated a gas attack in Syria so Donald Trump could strike back in minimal and symbolic fashion, and that Putin told Trump ahead of time to go ahead and begin building up troops in advance, and that Trump went along with the horrifying stunt. And yet this is – incredibly – the least convoluted explanation that makes any logical sense."

<next paragraph; N.>

Whatever the real story behind the surreal events of the past forty-eight hours, which has cost the lives of Syrian children and has put U.S. troops in harm’s way, Donald Trump’s role in it must be investigated to the fullest. Because if my logical theory is even half right, then Trump just became a genocidal war criminal.

Like every American president since World War II, right?

But it couldn't have been one of the anti-Assad factions who are losing the war, right? It couldn't have been the 100 million that those Tomahawk missiles cost, right? It couldn't have been because Trump tries to distract on his own behalf, right? No, the most logical conclusion must be that Putin ordered it. Gee, life is just like a James Bond movie, but we get to hear the truth from the mainstream media because upholding journalistic values is what matters most to them.

Who cares what the real reason is? The US shouldn't be there and bombing 6-7 other countries in the first place!!! That's what's important!

F*** Trump. Show those who voted for him, how he is betraying them, and that you will really try and do those things he promised. You can't do that if you take him by bypassing democracy, and only then do you stand a chance of turning this mess around. Not like this. You're reinforcing it. It's going to backfire and you're going to keep losing.
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2142 on: April 09, 2017, 08:56:21 PM »
Quote
Modern democracy is a child of the Enlightenment, but Trump and Putin’s opposition goes much deeper than simply being a counter-Enlightenment position.

God, how can people sound/write so smart, and still be so stupid!? It's not about Trump and Putin, it's systemic! It's the system that creates Trump, Putin, the crazy Republicans, the Corporate Democrats, and so on. It's what happens naturally when the rich just keep getting richer, and richer, and richer.

Again, it's focussing on personality, rather than taking the broad and long-term view. It's so counterproductive.
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mati

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2143 on: April 09, 2017, 09:21:28 PM »
  "Luckily there are no large russian popluations in the middle east, or else Putin would be in there big time "rescuing" them from persecution by taking over their govenment."
Russia has always aligned itself with the orthodox christian community, in that area, when they've been threatened by Islam, whether it was the Turks, Arabs or Iranians. Look at what happened to the Armenians when Russia was too weak to help.

Was that not what started the Crimean War?

from wikipedia:

Quote
The Crimean War (French: Guerre de Crimée; Russian: Крымская война, Krymskaya voina; Turkish: Kırım Savaşı, Sardinian: Gherra di Crimea) was a military conflict fought from October 1853 to March 1856 in which the Russian Empire lost to an alliance of France, Britain, the Ottoman Empire, and Sardinia. The immediate cause involved the rights of Christian minorities in the Holy Land, which was a part of the Ottoman Empire. The French promoted the rights of Roman Catholics, while Russia promoted those of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
and so it goes

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2144 on: April 09, 2017, 10:23:57 PM »
Here's what Noam Chomsky has to say about the issue. I hope people here take him seriously and respect him enough to listen to him (from minute 9:54 onwards if the video doesn't start there):

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TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2145 on: April 09, 2017, 10:25:39 PM »
Quote
Modern democracy is a child of the Enlightenment, but Trump and Putin’s opposition goes much deeper than simply being a counter-Enlightenment position.

God, how can people sound/write so smart, and still be so stupid!? It's not about Trump and Putin, it's systemic! It's the system that creates Trump, Putin, the crazy Republicans, the Corporate Democrats, and so on. It's what happens naturally when the rich just keep getting richer, and richer, and richer.

Again, it's focussing on personality, rather than taking the broad and long-term view. It's so counterproductive.


The DK Effect indicates that Americans in particular are given to underestimate their abilities re. subject matter that they have vast knowledge of, even as they overestimate their capabilities when confronted with questions in a field in which they are unlettered.
In fairness East Asians are the other group to which the Americans have been compared, and they were found to not display similar behavior.


Those without knowledge in a particular field simply don't know enough to accurately access just how little they do know. This isn't stupidity, its DK. The lowest achievers believe they've done better on a given test, while those who know the subject believe they've done worse.


The result of this inability to accurately rate your own capability leads to those with the least comprehension making the loudest noises, while those that do understand tend to question their own beliefs.


Those with strong enough stomachs can slip over to any of the denialist sites to watch this in real time.



Word for the day:


Ultracrepidarianism


Terry

mati

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2146 on: April 10, 2017, 12:58:12 AM »
the problem is cyclical in nature.
it's a very interesting feedback loop.
the rich get richer, then the masses revolt and start something new
and throw out the rich.
rinse and repeat.
Im sure that the studies in chimpanzee societies have seen the same problem.
and so it goes

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2147 on: April 10, 2017, 05:07:26 AM »
Neven nails it. Russia is a distraction.

But for some, a useful distraction. Establishment Democrats hope it will draw attention away for their enslavement to money. And their incompetence in running a flawed and corrupt campaign. And their collusion against the candidate threatening their money supply. And their betrayal of many of their most devoted consituencies. Dear god, how do you lose the unions ?

Then it is also a distraction from oh, so, so many promises broken in the Obama Cesarship, the Nobel Peace Laureate, the  Caesar of Peace. At home powerful torturers and plutocratic thieves were shielded. Millions were left unemployed, unhoused  in poverty. Rapacious banking houses rescued, their wealth restored and they were nursed carefully back to vigor in criminality. Abroad, drone wars were expanded, several more countries were destabilized, more millions engulfed in war.

In the video with Chomsky linked earlier by Neven, he recalled an early harbinger of our present doom, the 2010 election to succeed Ted Kennedy. Which was won by the Republican candidate in a bastion of the Democratic party and Chomsky pointed out that Democrats lost the unions there too. He actually echoed Sara Palin's quip about hope and change, stating that the voters in Massachusetts had seen none of the second and lost the first. He also seems to agree that Sanders would have won and noted that he is the most popular politician in the country.

There is also a significant investment of identity by many in the candidacy of Hillary Clinton coupled with a visceral disgust at Donald Trump. Easier to believe that Russians stole the election, than that the anointed one could lose to a populist vulgarian. Never mind that the narrative requires belief in discredited intelligence institutions, known to be liars, murderers and torturers. Never mind that putative Russian interference included revelation of of the reality of sabotage by Establishment Democrats of the candidacy of Bernie Sanders. Never mind that luminaries like Michael Moore and their own precinct workers in the midwest were sounding the alarm and screaming for help long before the election. Never mind that even morons on the street like me could see this wave of discontent from the Mississippi into Appalachia and beyond merely by passing through those forsaken towns and talking to people.

And it is easier for Establisment democrats if they can avoid blame for running a horrible campaign with a deeply flawed candidate, stay in bed with their donors,  keep that sweet, sweet money flowing. "We did nuttn wrong, it was the Russians. Where are you union guys and the rest of you gonna go anyway ? There Is No Alternative except to keep doin things the way we always have."  If they can get the rubes to buy that story, why, they don't have to change their ways, can keep sucking that money teat forever.

I think this is a game the Establishment Democrats will lose. The story didn't sell so well the last time. The rubes said, "Fuck you. There is always an Alternative. You may not like it, but it's there."

And I see no evidence that anybody, Republican or Democrat, heard the next sentence: "Next time the Alternative we choose will be even worse than this one."

And that Alternative could be far, far worse than a populist Caesar. Several years ago, after the crash, I had an 84 year old man, old time coal miner but now easily a millionaire, and a local philanthropist, look me in the eye and tell me the way it is in too many small towns across the USA: "My neighbors are starving. They are dying and killing themselves. I do what I can, but this can't go on. Nuttn's gonna change until we go to DC and New York and string some of these people up."

His neighbors are worse off today than they were then.

sidd
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 05:24:49 AM by sidd »

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2148 on: April 10, 2017, 08:18:53 AM »
Sorry for getting so agitated about this. I felt a bit desperate yesterday.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Pmt111500

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2149 on: April 10, 2017, 08:50:54 AM »
As there is political threads here nowadays which is a bit sad imho, i'll report that The greens made their best result ever in Finnish communal elections and any elections in Finland yesterday. They even got most votes in the 7th largest city. Mind you, they're more sane than Stein party, f.e. not opposing vaccinations. Still they're opposed to nuclear energy, which is regarded somewhat of a sin by the older parties. A bit sad to see that the traditional nature conservation has been a bit marginalized in their politics.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 09:04:59 AM by Pmt111500 »