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Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2250 on: April 21, 2017, 06:16:34 PM »
Quote
You argue that the election is over, and that it doesn't matter anyway.
Then, in your second last paragraph, you retract the very argument you had made.

The election is over, get over it.

Terry:

The question below....REGARDING THE ELECTION.....was brought up by YOU.  I was answering YOUR QUESTION.  I didn't "bring it up."  YOU DID. 

Quote
Just how was that Fiendish Putin able to sway the votes of so many swing state voters?

You see.....that was YOUR QUESTION.  Not mine.  My mistake was answering it apparently....

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2251 on: April 21, 2017, 06:36:06 PM »
After months of harping on Russiagate it may well be time to put that meme to bed.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2252 on: April 21, 2017, 06:46:52 PM »
Quote
After months of harping on Russiagate it may well be time to put that meme to bed.

The meme will go to sleep once the investigation is over....and not a minute before.  Watergate went on for 19 months.....we just started month 4.  And this could go on LONGER....

I would get more popcorn if I were you......
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2253 on: April 21, 2017, 07:59:26 PM »
Popcorn isn't appropriate as I watch the slow suicide of the party I supported my whole life.


The gleeful nattering of one who brags of his lack of fielty to the party is hardly a concern, the myopia of those whose intellect I respect though, that is a heavy blow.


Remember the Whigs and the Tories?
They abandoned their base.


Terry




Jim Pettit

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2254 on: April 21, 2017, 08:13:23 PM »
My Bad
I certainly should have linked to the enclosed link from CBS News


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cia-fbi-on-manhunt-for-leaker-who-gave-top-secret-documents-to-wikileaks/


It will be hard to take this Anti-American, Pro-Putin rag seriously, but it's always a good idea to see what Fake News these Commie Agitators have dreamt up now. 8)

Terry

Thanks for the more credible link. The CBS piece, of course, doesn't come close to repeating the bolded headline from that ZeroHedge blog post cited above ("The FBI Admits it Was Not the Russians"), though it does indeed speak of the person or persons who handed that magic box of top-secret information to WikiLeaks. FWIW, I hope the culprit is/culprits are outed, tried, adjudicated guilty, and hanged. It's one thing to blow the whistle on unconstitutional activities perpetrated by our government; it's something else entirely to lay waste to our whole security apparatus and endanger the nation because of misplaced and undisclosed allegiances, and/or a few pieces of silver.

(For the record--and this isn't a call to authority, but just a little bit of background to explain my fascination with this subject--I joined the US military some years ago, planning to take the GI Bill-funded route into meteorology school. But that didn't happen, as I was singled out early during basic training and placed on the fast track into the sparsely-populated intelligence ranks.)

sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2255 on: April 21, 2017, 08:52:28 PM »
" ... lay waste to our whole security apparatus and endanger the nation ... "

That security apparatus is a bunch of rectal feeders and accomplices. Laying waste to it is necessary, before it further corrupts the nation.

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2256 on: April 21, 2017, 09:23:54 PM »
Jim


I very much side with sidd on this.
We, (I lived most of my adult life in the States), were fed a huge pile of propaganda. Even though I knew I was being lied to, the propaganda had it's desired effect.
Those who swallowed it whole have a very warped sense of reality, and therefor a very warped sense of who or what to vote for.


Assange, at huge personal risk, has been slowly pulling back the curtain to reveal the monsters pulling the strings. Will other nations take advantage, certainly. Will we be better able to determine what is being done in our name, certainly. Is it less disturbing to not know what goes into making the sausage, certainly.


But we do have a right to know what those we placed in power are doing with that power. Watching LBJ ask Hoover's help in identifying homosexuals in government was hilarious. It also reminded me of where gay rights were only a short time ago, and it indicated just how out of touch LBJ was with his top advisers.


If the missing 18 minutes of Nixon's tape becomes available, I want it available to everyone in the country. Governments might fall, leaders may be impeached, I don't care.
My right to know the truth is far more important than their right to rule - based on lies.


Sorry, still a little wound up.
Terry


Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2257 on: April 21, 2017, 09:54:31 PM »
Jimmy Dore's YouTube channel keeps growing, even though they have cut off his ad revenues.

Here's a video about an interview Noam Chomsky did with Democracy Now last week, called Russia Hysteria Is Making US International Laughing Stock:

! No longer available
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2258 on: April 21, 2017, 11:35:28 PM »
I like a lot of what Chomsky says, politically, anyway.

But I don't follow quite follow his logic here.

Why, just because we have manipulated others' elections, shouldn't we be outraged that others are manipulating ours.

We commit drone strikes on others' soil. Does that mean we should just laugh it off with the rest of the world if another country were to start attacking US cities with drones?

It is outrageous that we manipulate elections in other countries and kill their citizens with drones. When either happens on our soil, it should surely be seen as at least equally outrageous, right?

Am I missing something, here? Or is the opportunity for schadenfreude just too juicy to pass up in this case for the rest of the world and for parts of the left?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2259 on: April 22, 2017, 12:14:31 AM »
Wili


What if every student brought a calculator to a math test. But they decided that you alone had cheated?
What if every serviceman marched for Trump, but they insisted that by marching you had swung the election.
What if every countries leader urged Americans to vote for Hillary, but Putin urged them to vote for Trump.


The final example is almost exactly what happened. If Putin and Trump are guilty so are Hillary and Trudeau, Hillary and May, and Hillary and Merkel.


You certainly won't claim that America must stand neutral in Russia's coming election. I doubt that you would charge Mexico's leader for saying nasties about Trump. Why on earth would you expect Putin to sit on his hands when one candidate threatens war as the other makes nice overtures?


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2260 on: April 22, 2017, 01:43:04 AM »
Wili


What if every student brought a calculator to a math test. But they decided that you alone had cheated?
What if every serviceman marched for Trump, but they insisted that by marching you had swung the election.
What if every countries leader urged Americans to vote for Hillary, but Putin urged them to vote for Trump.


The final example is almost exactly what happened. If Putin and Trump are guilty so are Hillary and Trudeau, Hillary and May, and Hillary and Merkel.


You certainly won't claim that America must stand neutral in Russia's coming election. I doubt that you would charge Mexico's leader for saying nasties about Trump. Why on earth would you expect Putin to sit on his hands when one candidate threatens war as the other makes nice overtures?


Terry

Terry,

The main problem with your analogy is that in this thread we are outraged by the reported evidence that the Trump campaign colluded with Putin, so the outrage is about Trump.

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2261 on: April 22, 2017, 02:31:14 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “Former Acting AG Sally Yates to Testify Publicly in House Russia Probe.  We will progressively get at the truth.

http://www.nbcnews.com/card/former-acting-ag-sally-yates-testify-publicly-russia-probe-n749481

Extract: “The Republican and Democrat leading the House Intelligence Committee probe of Russian election interference announced Friday they are seeking to schedule public testimony sometime after May 2 by Yates, as well as former CIA Director John Brennan and James Clapper, the former director of national intelligence.”
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TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2262 on: April 22, 2017, 03:46:25 AM »
Wili


What if every student brought a calculator to a math test. But they decided that you alone had cheated?
What if every serviceman marched for Trump, but they insisted that by marching you had swung the election.
What if every countries leader urged Americans to vote for Hillary, but Putin urged them to vote for Trump.


The final example is almost exactly what happened. If Putin and Trump are guilty so are Hillary and Trudeau, Hillary and May, and Hillary and Merkel.


You certainly won't claim that America must stand neutral in Russia's coming election. I doubt that you would charge Mexico's leader for saying nasties about Trump. Why on earth would you expect Putin to sit on his hands when one candidate threatens war as the other makes nice overtures?


Terry

Terry,

The main problem with your analogy is that in this thread we are outraged by the reported evidence that the Trump campaign colluded with Putin, so the outrage is about Trump.

Best,
ASLR


So ...
You believe that Hillary, or her staff, would not have (colluded*) with Trudeau, May or Merkel to assure that their comments/influence didn't inadvertantly clash with whatever proposal the Candidate might be about to make?


*colluded - is assuredly within my vocabulary, although I certainly don't recall ever having used it. Conspired or plotted fall more naturally from my tongue. I certainly remember the 5th of November when they plotted to blow up Parliament, and conspiracy certainly slots into whomever was behind Kennedy's abbreviated presidency.
Colluded sounds to my ear to be something that a wordsmith might unveil if he didn't want to evoke memories of conspiracies, conspiracies that our wordsmith might much prefer being ignored.


Lets substitute conspired, just for fun. They're synonyms so either should do.


Now we can refer to the "conspiracy" that brought down Hillary. Those who believe in this theory might become known as "conspiracy theorists", so we can see why our wily wordsmith would want to steer far clear of those rocky shores.


So we're left with plotted or colluded. "They plotted to bring down the American Electoral System" vs "They colluded to bring down the American Electoral System". No problems with "Plot theorists". nor with, "colluded theorists". Plotting however seems to have gained much usage when buildings are brought down. Evil doers plotted to bring down the Twin Towers, even the crazed loner that perpetrated the Oklahoma City Bombing was accused of plotting it's destruction all by himself.


All these deeds bring back memories of conspiracies, so I'm afraid we're stuck with collude, collusion, colluding, and colluded. Some unheralded wordsmith, his name already lost to history, has left his indelible mark on the American Psyche.


Some will conclude t'was collusion,
some will cry nay, with dismay
But collude won't skewed
By the boorish or rude
To inspire a thought of conspire


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2263 on: April 22, 2017, 04:10:16 AM »

So ...
You believe that Hillary, or her staff, would not have (colluded*) with Trudeau, May or Merkel to assure that their comments/influence didn't inadvertantly clash with whatever proposal the Candidate might be about to make?


I believe that we should let the FBI's criminal investigation of potential collusion between the Trump campaign and Putin take its full, and natural, course.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2264 on: April 22, 2017, 04:53:49 AM »
I'm sure the investigation will be totally without even the whiff of political skulduggery, and I'll pledge myself to abide by the result.
Just as Hillary pledged to abide by the will of the electorate.


I'm still pissed at Trump for abstaining from the pledge.


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2265 on: April 22, 2017, 05:47:03 AM »
Apologize in advance for the source, but the pending charges against Assange bring up some interesting 1st amendment questions.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-20/us-preparing-charges-arrest-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange


If Wikileaks is guilty, then how are CNN, Fox News, NBC, CBC, CBS, BBC or any outlets that have ever published Assanges revelations any less guilty?
Is the 1st amendment only to apply when the information is first vetted by TPTB. Should Watergate and the Pentagon Papers have been buried. Is the United States now so vulnerable that it can't stand the light of truth? Is the United States now so corrupt that it will crumble when the corruption is revealed?


Terry


wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2266 on: April 22, 2017, 06:23:19 AM »
Terry, I don't follow your analogies. They seem rather off the mark, as ASLR suggested.

But it's late here, so maybe I'm just not tracking?

As for: "You certainly won't claim that America must stand neutral in Russia's coming election. I doubt that you would charge Mexico's leader for saying nasties about Trump"

Please avoid putting words and opinions into other posters mouths. I do, in fact, think that it should not be an official US position to influence another country's election.

And of course public, easily attributable speech about public figures is a very different thing from the kind of media manipulations and other covert influences that have been alleged.

The fact that you have to jump to such far fetched analogies and irrelevant comparisons suggests that your actual valid arguments are...running thin here, perhaps.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Buddy

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2267 on: April 22, 2017, 08:43:41 PM »
A good article on FOX.  And after you read this article....you'll have a better understanding of why Trump uses FOX.....and FOX uses Trump.  A wonderful marriage..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-oreilly-was-just-a-sympton-fox-news-is-the-disease_us_58f9309de4b0de26cfeae232?vn8&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2268 on: April 22, 2017, 09:53:32 PM »
Wili
Sorry you're not comfortable with my analogies.
Please offer a few of your own.


When an Arizona senator has his picture taken with terrorists, this sends a message, not just to foreign governments, but to the voters in those democracies.
When Ronny Ray Gun broadcast that a vote for Ortega was a vote to continue the war against Ronny's proxies, that wasn't even a subtle threat.
Obama told the British that if they didn't vote the way he wanted, he would punish them by closing off trade. That was so successful that he's now phoning one of the contenders in the French election. - Sounds like collusion to me.


I'm not saying this is good nor bad, simply that it's pervasive. Suddenly prosecuting one actor for deeds that every head of state has engaged in is commonly referred to as selective prosecution & is generally frowned upon.


When the country that gave us "gunboat diplomacy" now tells us that collusion is a crime, this just might cause the outpour of mirth that Chomsky alludes to.


There are a thousand areas where Trump is vulnerable. Science, the economy, misogyny, xenophobia, or even climate change, why pick at the one sore that delivers the neo-libs the only opening they need.


Why battle against peaceful relations with the rest of the world.


Terry


Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2269 on: April 22, 2017, 10:06:34 PM »
I like a lot of what Chomsky says, politically, anyway.

But I don't follow quite follow his logic here.

Why, just because we have manipulated others' elections, shouldn't we be outraged that others are manipulating ours.

We commit drone strikes on others' soil. Does that mean we should just laugh it off with the rest of the world if another country were to start attacking US cities with drones?

It is outrageous that we manipulate elections in other countries and kill their citizens with drones. When either happens on our soil, it should surely be seen as at least equally outrageous, right?

Am I missing something, here?
Yes, what you are missing, is that you shouldn't be manipulating elections in other countries and kill their citizens with cowardly drones. You're turning it around. Did you ever think about why it is that most of the world hates the US?

Get the troops home and leave other countries and their natural resources alone.

I'm almost 100% sure you agree with me on this, but it's an important point I wanted to make.

I believe that we should let the FBI's criminal investigation of potential collusion between the Trump campaign and Putin take its full, and natural, course.

I fully agree. So, while they're all investigating (it could take 18 months Buddy says), let's talk about all the stupid things president Trump is doing. I would kindly ask the mainstream media to start doing the same thing. There are more pressing matters than squirrels. Or like TerryM says: "There are a thousand areas where Trump is vulnerable. Science, the economy, misogyny, xenophobia, or even climate change, why pick at the one sore that delivers the neo-libs the only opening they need."

I've opened a separate thread to discuss Russiagate.
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wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2270 on: April 22, 2017, 10:35:06 PM »
"...what you are missing, is you shouldn't be manipulating elections in other countries and kill their citizens with cowardly drones..."

????

I'm not missing those! (There seem to be two different 'you's in your sentence. The first seems to address me as an individual, since I asked what I could be missing. The second, unless you think I personally direct drone strikes and manipulate various countries' elections, seems to refer to the US government. I would appreciate not having ascribed to me personally all the policies and practices of the US gov, especially those I have worked hard to expose and undo. Thank you. But of course, we're all to some extent guilty since they are done in our name, and there are few who can say that they couldn't have done even more to oppose these policies.)

I have been outraged by them, protested against them, and worked to reverse them, in the case of the former, for decades.

And the very same reasons that I'm outraged that we are doing it to others is why I am outraged that others are doing it to us.

And yes, we agree. But "the US" isn't one monolithic entity. Peace activists and others have been working hard to draw attention to these outrages and put a stop to them. I think we have a right to also be upset when they happen on our soil, though of course we understand that chickens do tend to come home to roost, to paraphrase Malcom X's accurate but not particularly well timed words.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 10:42:15 PM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2271 on: April 22, 2017, 10:51:09 PM »
Please note that tens of thousands of people, at least, across the country and around the world are protesting the Trump administration's attack on science, especially climate science.

I was one of some 10,000 at our rally in St. Paul.

I saw not one sign about Russia.

Real people in the real world are mostly focused on the damage this administration is doing to our land, our air, our water, our education, our healthcare, our minorities, our women...

Hell, there was a national protest a few days ago about Trump's failure to disclose his taxes. No such national protest has yet happened about the Russia thing, as far as I know.

The total obsession about Russia-gate seems to be mostly an inside the beltway thing, and something the media have latched on to.

That's not to say that most activists are ignorant of it or don't care a thing about it. It's just not as central a thing, in my experience, for most citizens and activists as it is for the Washington insiders and the MSM.

These realities may be hard for folks to see from oversees, so I'm just letting y'all know.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2272 on: April 22, 2017, 11:28:25 PM »

I saw not one sign about Russia.

 No such national protest has yet happened about the Russia thing, as far as I know.

The total obsession about Russia-gate seems to be mostly an inside the beltway thing, and something the media have latched on to.

That's not to say that most activists are ignorant of it or don't care a thing about it. It's just not as central a thing, in my experience, for most citizens and activists as it is for the Washington insiders and the MSM.

These realities may be hard for folks to see from oversees, so I'm just letting y'all know.


Thank you, I am aware of how reality becomes garbled just by crossing the bridge at Detroit.


If Russiagate is not gaining traction, lets smother it in it's crib. The bigger it grows the more of a distraction it becomes. We don't need to piss off Putin to kill off Trump. Trump's surge in popularity when he started firing missiles & pushing giant bombs out of transport planes indicates that by demonizing Russia, we're actually providing Trump with an escape hatch that he can use whenever the heat gets too hot.
If all the world was our friend, the scoundrel couldn't start a fight to distract the lynch mob.


Bad choice of words, but you get the idea.


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2273 on: April 23, 2017, 09:36:25 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “Trump’s Organized Crime Ties Bring Blackmail to the White House”, & it indicates that Trump has ties to the mob in Kazakhstan.

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/23/trumps-organized-crime-ties-bring-blackmail-to-the-white-house/

Extract: “Says one former business partner, "The headline will be ‘The Kazakh Gangster and President Trump.'"”
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Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2274 on: April 23, 2017, 10:47:04 PM »
Given that Kazakhstan is a former Soviet republic, the Russiagate thread may be more suitable for this. Perhaps this thread can be used for all the stuff that President Trump is doing unnoticed (re-opening pipeline projects, gutting healthcare, giving Wall Street free rein, etc, etc) and how this may be exploited by people who shun empty rhetoric and want to serve the American people.
The enemy is within
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2275 on: April 23, 2017, 11:35:17 PM »
There are a thousand areas where Trump is vulnerable. Science, the economy, misogyny, xenophobia, or even climate change, why pick at the one sore that delivers the neo-libs the only opening they need.
My strong impression is that this is exactly why the proverbial white rural inbred voted Trump! May the coastal elite march for science, for economic reason, against pussy grabbing, against hate, all that lefty stuff real men despise. That will just make flyover Americans vote for a trumper prexy next time. And Trump will have made them more miserable, hateful, and stupid enough to want more of the same. (I meanwhile think that Trump is not the worst we will see. How nice were the times of GWB...)

wili

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2276 on: April 23, 2017, 11:39:46 PM »
"Trump is doing unnoticed"

No one that I know stateside here is missing these things, and many others.

But maybe I just run in a bad crowd!  :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2277 on: April 24, 2017, 12:01:26 AM »
There are a thousand areas where Trump is vulnerable. Science, the economy, misogyny, xenophobia, or even climate change, why pick at the one sore that delivers the neo-libs the only opening they need.
My strong impression is that this is exactly why the proverbial white rural inbred voted Trump! May the coastal elite march for science, for economic reason, against pussy grabbing, against hate, all that lefty stuff real men despise. That will just make flyover Americans vote for a trumper prexy next time. And Trump will have made them more miserable, hateful, and stupid enough to want more of the same. (I meanwhile think that Trump is not the worst we will see. How nice were the times of GWB...)

Martin, this is all too simple and black-and-white. And a bit arrogant too. You're painting tens of millions of people with a broad brush, saying they're stupid and evil. My 80-year old neighbour is a racist, but on the whole, I would still say he's a good man. I know misogynists who have their good sides too. There's a lot of ignorance, but that's not the same as straight-out evil.

I've met tons of educated people, liberal-minded etc, who were just as ignorant and easy to dupe as flyover Americans. They are played by the kleptocrats too.

Talking like this won't win any people over. There are a lot of poor, disenfranchised people in America, who used Trump as a gigantic fuck you-finger because they felt that both establishment Republicans and Democrats weren't looking out for them.

I believe that if you offer these people someone who will serve their interests and can explain her/his vision in clear and simple terms, they will vote for her/him. If you alienate people by telling them they are deplorables and stupid, they will vote for someone worse than Trump, a smart Trump who can unite one of the parties and do some real damage, just to spite arrogant pricks like you (I'm talking from their perspective).

"Trump is doing unnoticed"

No one that I know stateside here is missing these things, and many others.

But maybe I just run in a bad crowd!  :)
Based on where all the attention is directed by the mainstream media, I'd say a lot of people are missing these things. You can't talk about Russia, tax forms and those beautiful missiles on Syria more than 50% of the time. That's not a fair distribution.

And it's simply a stupid thing to do. But maybe that's the whole idea. Distract from the real issues, get those ratings up.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2278 on: April 24, 2017, 01:00:04 AM »
There are a thousand areas where Trump is vulnerable. Science, the economy, misogyny, xenophobia, or even climate change, why pick at the one sore that delivers the neo-libs the only opening they need.
My strong impression is that this is exactly why the proverbial white rural inbred voted Trump! May the coastal elite march for science, for economic reason, against pussy grabbing, against hate, all that lefty stuff real men despise. That will just make flyover Americans vote for a trumper prexy next time. And Trump will have made them more miserable, hateful, and stupid enough to want more of the same. (I meanwhile think that Trump is not the worst we will see. How nice were the times of GWB...)

Martin, this is all too simple and black-and-white. And a bit arrogant too. You're painting tens of millions of people with a broad brush, saying they're stupid and evil.
Yes. And I'm a little bit sorry for the tone (also in the Russiagate thread). But I didn't say evil. Yes, talking like this won't win many people over. But methinks when I can't win them over I could at least talk tacheles and call a rose a rose and a stupid a stupid - and at least have some fun or catharsis. I'm not so sure that Bernie Sanders would have won over so much more Trump voters.
 
I've met many American stupid in the 1990s, and I liked them much more than Bavarian stupid. I was amazed back then how stupid folks can be (but with far better social skills than I'm used from Germany, something where I am a bit of a stupid myself...). But again and again I was also amazed of the bright people I met in unexpected places.
But it has to be said. American stupid is mindboggling. Often enough not due to a lack of IQ or education, but due to groupthink (mental inbreeding) or greed, ego, etc. And you don't need to meet them. Just look at their Congress critters. Many U.S. congressmen have the stupid written right into their face, for everyone to see, after a long career of producing and exploiting stupid folks, what the Kleptocrats need and want. Paradigm: Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos.

Enough of this word. Sorry. Will keep mouth shut for a day.

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2279 on: April 24, 2017, 02:50:52 AM »
Martin


I had a page of hateful things to say, then re-read your last offering and changed my mind. I've never met the Bavarian stupid, in fact stupid is an adjective I rarely use.
If we represent the un-stupid, then let's get behind party leaders that abstain from making stupid remarks and doing stupid things.
We don't despise those who aren't quite as bright as ourselves. We might despise some of the stances they take, or the actions they applaud, but, by definition they're not as bright as ourselves, and we should be able to influence them, at least to influence them for as long as it takes to cast a vote.


We need their help to defeat Trump & those who follow.


The votes are not in gated communities, elite schools, or business conclaves. The votes are in unemployment lines, welfare offices, and strolling through Walmart. 95 million Americans have given up hope of finding work - we need their vote.
Denigrating them for lack of skill, lack of intellect, or lack of drive, won't win them over. If we want them to care about our cause, we have to care, passionately, about theirs.


Terry



Martin Gisser

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2280 on: April 24, 2017, 03:39:35 AM »
Denigrating them for lack of skill, lack of intellect, or lack of drive, won't win them over. If we want them to care about our cause, we have to care, passionately, about theirs.
I didn't mean to denigrate them for lack of intellect. E.g. methinks the famous professor emeritus and pope emeritus Ratzinger, a Barvarian born 10km downstream from where I type this, is/was a dangerous st.. umm well I wont type the word again. :-)
One problem with technical intelligence is that one can make up more excuses, weird theories, etc. and believe more complex bullshit suiting the ego. I know and like very "simple" people, as long as they are sincere and interested in the world outside the bubbles in their heads.

So, what to say to people e.g. who want no stinking Hillary healthcare, and not even Obamacare, stuff any other developed nation understands. And then complain and vote for more misery? Heck, I've got only one wørd to say to them.

Here is Michael Moore, noting a 20y old photo in an Estonian clinic:

Digest this and understand my ire.

Now me go sleep and shut up. :-)

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2281 on: April 24, 2017, 04:16:56 AM »
If I might stand up for American stupid I'd like to try. Maybe the problem goes clear back to the times of Ned Ludd but for my relatives and a somewhat more modern example I think when the US. Dept. of Agriculture decided farmers needed to get big or get out and our agrarian culture was converted to machines and commodity crops our descent began. We were the fodder for war, we watched as our family farms couldn't keep up and were converted to modern agriculture. Nobody seemed to value our contribution to building this country or the values we still cherish. A huge portion of flyover country is still trying to hang on to the past , a proud past. We still hunt, we fish , we'd like to believe we can take care of ourselves. ( I don't talk about hunting on this blog ) Farming for little or no money so city folks can look down their nose at us gets old quick. Sending our kids off to fight senseless wars because it pays some kind of wage is generational. Walmart and big box stores gutting our little towns and has reduced many small towns to shells of their former selves.
 I should also point out I spend my time here and not on some preper gunnut site. My Luddite tendencies aren't an unreasonable response to where I see civilization taking our planet and I don't believe doubling down on technology is an intelligent response. I maybe contrary but I don't think I'm evil or ignorant and breaking things might be necessary. I wish Trump actually shared some of my values but I don't believe that for a minute.
 So country folk don't like city folks. I don't know how to solve these problems but I don't think city folks driving Teslas and living large on six figure incomes could give a shit that they are so divorced from nature and any notion of self reliance. Any fantasy that the cities can just convert to electric cars and ignor their deep reliance on other people's misery is going to at some point result in armed conflict.
When that time comes I wouldn't bet on technological supremacy winning the day.
 So yes the Trump vote was the middle finger and maybe some people are happy he might break things. They are still hoping he will.
 So maybe trying to walk a mile in another mans shoes is still good advice. Maybe we aren't as stupid
as we are angry but returning to the past also means social breakdown. Sometimes I hope for that too.
Nature would probably benefit .

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2282 on: April 24, 2017, 05:31:11 AM »
Martin
I was just accused on another thread of "moving the goal posts", but I do tend to follow where the flow goes.
At dinner last night a number of us were discussing Canadian healthcare vs Obamacare & the chaos it replaced. I as the only one present who had been very sick in both countries had my say.


Everyone was aware that the Canadian system was much better than anything available south of the border, but none were aware of just how bad the American system really is.


I'd spent ~40k in 2003, and that was with the best insurance available, only to be told that I'd be dead in 6 months. I decided to come home for my last days & moved in 2004.
After seeing a Canadian doctor on Thursday, they operate the following Tuesday. Rather than reappearing the next time they looked, the cancer stayed away for 5 years. My neurological condition was in remission, so I didn't see my specialist for almost a month, although she called Thursday night after my initial visit to a doctor.


My drugs cost a pittance, I get a full deduction for driving for medical reasons, my meals and hotel are paid for if I need to go out of town.
Americans don't have any idea how badly their being treated. Canadians don't have any idea how wonderful "socialized" medicine is.
I quickly listed half a dozen dead friends from Nevada, and the medical mistreatments that killed them. The last went when they were changing the battery in his pacemaker, he just never woke up.


Obamacare is an abomination that is infinitely better than the financial butchery that went before. The millions spent convincing Americans that their healthcare is adequate has done it's work. World statistics should be the tip off, but decades of propaganda is hard to shake.


The well has been poisoned in the US, but if we ever get back in power, a stroke of the pen could save millions of lives.


Terry
Sorry to all, this really did swing far from the topic. It's a subject I'm passionate about.

AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2283 on: April 24, 2017, 09:37:19 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "James Comey’s Fear of Everyone—Except Democrats—Helped Donald Trump Upset Hillary Clinton", and it indicates that the Democrats (& other parties including the FBI's criminal investigation of the Trump-Russia connection) need to take their collective gloves off and start hitting Trump & the GOP harder:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/04/24/james-comey-s-fear-of-everyone-except-democrats-helped-donald-trump-upset-hillary-clinton.html

Extract: "Comey thought a lot about the rabid Republican zealots he could offend by doing his job and enforcing the law, and not at all about the Democrats he trusted would be docile and play by the rules.

Everyone spent the weekend talking about the big New York Times James Comey piece, an informative (and infuriating) tick-tock about what was going through the FBI director’s head last year as he said what he said about Hillary Clinton—and didn’t say what he didn’t say about Donald Trump.

The big takeaway may be that the reason everything happened the way it did is that everyone involved, from Comey up to President Obama, assumed Hillary Clinton was going to win. Their behavior was guided by that assumption.

There are two morals to this story. The first is, well, good on the Democrats, I guess, for not playing politics (Lynch excepted) with such a sensitive matter. This is how things are supposed to work in this country.

But the second moral is that, regrettable as it may be, this isn’t how things work in this country anymore. Republicans were so ferociously partisan about everything having to do with Hillary Clinton—and Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama, and fill in the blank—that they created a reality in which the nation’s top law enforcement official was thinking more or less constantly about how he could avoid incurring their wrath. Of course, he’s a Republican himself, and was involved in Clinton probes in the 1990s, so there’s also that. But how that factored in we can’t know.

What we do know is that one political party frightens people and the other one doesn’t. The party in question needs to learn from this. And I mean right now, while Comey is investigating Trump and the Democrats are in opposition with nothing to lose. When one side has a bazooka, a sling shot won’t cut it."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2284 on: April 24, 2017, 09:47:11 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Group of Mental Health Professionals Warn Trump’s State ‘Putting Country in Danger’”, and it addresses the duty of mental health care professionals to warn the public of the risks associated with Donald Trump's mental condition:

https://enewspf.com/2017/04/22/group-mental-health-professionals-warn-trumps-state-putting-country-danger/

Extract: "Despite professional rule barring them from doing so, psychological experts have argued that “too much is at stake to be silent any longer.

“We do believe that Donald Trump’s mental illness is putting the entire country, and indeed the entire world, in danger,” argued Dr. John Gartner, a psychologist who used to teach at Johns Hopkins University, local WTNH writes. “As health professionals we have an ethical duty to warn the public about that danger,” he said.

“Worse than just being a liar or a narcissist, in addition he is paranoid, delusional and grandiose thinking and he proved that to the country the first day he was President. If Donald Trump really believes he had the largest crowd size in history, that’s delusional,” Gartner added."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2285 on: April 24, 2017, 07:33:37 PM »
For further evidence backing up ASLR's post, here's the transcript from an Associated Press interview last Friday with President Trump.

https://apnews.com/c810d7de280a47e88848b0ac74690c83

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2286 on: April 25, 2017, 01:44:57 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Senate staff perplexed by unusual White House private briefing on North Korea".  Another sign of Trump's imbalance.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/senate-staff-perplexed-by-unusual-white-house-private-briefing-on-north-korea/ar-BBAhGFq

Extract: "The White House announced Monday that it would host an unusual private briefing on North Korea for the entire Senate, prompting questions from lawmakers about whether the Trump administration intends to use the event as a photo op ahead of its 100-day mark.

Press secretary Sean Spicer told reporters that the lawmakers would be briefed Wednesday by several senior administration officials, including Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis. He emphasized that the meeting plan had been conveyed by Senate leadership and that the White House was serving “as the location.”

Yet the White House setting perplexed lawmakers who have grown accustomed to such briefings taking place in a secure location on Capitol Hill, where there is more room to handle such a large group."
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TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2287 on: April 25, 2017, 03:20:49 AM »
Trump announces a retroactive tariff on Canadian softwood:


http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/2017/04/24/trump-plans-to-impose-tariff-on-imports-canadian-softwood-lumber.html


After hammering Canada on energy, dairy & softwood the Trumpster orders a 20% tariff on softwood.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-china-trade-deal-1.4083723


Expect costs to rise for new houses and dairy, but what will happen to all the New Yorkers who light their homes with Canadian electricity?

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/1462441-trump-takes-first-swing-in-lumber-war-tariff-of-20-per-cent-on-canadian-lumber

The (Trade) Wars Begin


Terry
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 03:29:39 AM by TerryM »

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2288 on: April 25, 2017, 03:31:32 PM »
Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich:
"I would not inflict this on you except that I think it important you read it -- the full transcript of Trump's Friday interview with the White House correspondent for the Associated Press.

It shows that we are dealing with someone who is becoming seriously unhinged -- not just a pathological narcissist but a borderline sociopath who will almost certainly self destruct.

The question I keep asking myself is whether he'll self destruct in a relatively harmless way, or will take down many others with him.

What do you think?"
https://www.facebook.com/RBReich/posts/1548512448494679


Transcript of AP interview with Trump
https://apnews.com/c810d7de280a47e88848b0ac74690c83

Fact-checking Trump’s AP interview about his first 100 days
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/apr/24/fact-checking-trumps-associated-press-interview/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

charles_oil

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2289 on: April 25, 2017, 04:38:41 PM »

Sounds like a load of gobbledegook - a real challenge for the reporter!  Did you know about the planes ??


TerryM

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2290 on: April 25, 2017, 04:50:12 PM »
SMN


Trump never ceases to amaze. His speech patterns are as convoluted as W Bush's and he seems as aware of reality as Reagan.


Thank heaven he's not in a position where he could cause harm to anyone.  :-X


Terry

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2291 on: April 27, 2017, 08:12:15 AM »
Taibbi has a perceptive analysis:

" He was a new kind of candidate and now is a new kind of leader: one who stumbles like a drunk up Capitol Hill, but manages even in defeat to continually pull the country in his direction, transforming not our laws but our consciousness, one shriveling brain cell at a time."

"Trump didn't appeal to K Street for help, didn't beg for mailing lists or the phone numbers of millionaire bundlers, and never wrung his hands waiting for favorable reviews on Meet the Press. He was the first president in modern times to arrive in Washington not owing the local burghers.

What that meant, nobody knew, but it probably wasn't good. Leaders in both parties had reason to panic. Democrats were calling him illegitimate. Leading Republicans had abandoned Trump during the "grab them by the pussy" episode. In a true autocracy, theirs would be the first heads gored on stakes as a warning to the others. Many D.C. bureaucrats had no idea what to expect. They were like shopkeepers awaiting the arrival of a notorious biker gang."

"A spy chief who believes in literal Armageddon apparently wasn't "scathing" enough to be "fevered" about, and 14 Democrats supported his nomination in a whopping 66-32 confirmation."

" ... an opposition party that perhaps unconsciously has begun to grade Trump's insanity on a curve – an early example of how the relentless Trump show bends our perception of reality."

" The Framers may have designed the government to withstand bouts of popular madness, but there are no checks and balances against the power of celebrity. A president who is both a tyrant and disinterested in governance would have blown their minds."

" ... while President Trump may be a dolt, the reality-show Trump is as clever a manipulator as American politics has ever seen. Brilliantly, he's turned the presidency into a permanent campaign, one in which an ostensibly hostile news media has once again become accomplice to whatever the Trump phenomenon is, by voraciously feeding at its financial trough."

"Everything connected with Trump becomes tabloidized. The show is unstoppable."

" Trump in the White House may just be a monkey clutching history's biggest hand grenade. Yes, he's always one step ahead of us, and more dangerous than any smart person, and we can never for a minute take our eyes off him."

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-on-trump-the-destroyer-w473144

Read the whole thing. He nails it. Trump has instantiated a Presidency as media production. And, boy, Trump knows how to do that.

sidd

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2292 on: April 27, 2017, 03:13:52 PM »
The Trump tax plan:
(all one page of it) looks like he told his folks two days ago....OK...let's get a tax plan out in two days.

Anyone who wants the wealth disparity to grow LARGER than it already is.....will be tickled with this "plan"....since the overwhelming amount of tax breaks go to the very wealthy.

The article at the bottom does a good job of laying out the worst parts of the plan....and also where TRUMP'S FAMILY WILL GAIN THE MOST.

If the Democrat's don't REQUIRE Trump to SHOW HIS FUCKING TAX RETURNS BEFORE THERE IS EVEN DISCUSSION ON THE TAX ISSUE....then they are even dumber than I thought they were (full disclosure...I'm a fiscal conservative/social moderate.....an Independent).

1)  It does away with the estate tax:  Currently....estates are NOT taxed as long as they are less than $5.5 million (if single)....or 11.0 million if filing joint.  The estate tax is PAID BY THE ESTATE....NOT the beneficiary who receives the assets (they are generally NOT taxed by the beneficiary....except for 6 STATES that have a "beneficiary tax").

Only .2% of estates NOW pay any estate tax.  Not 2% of estates.......but .2% which is 2 out of every 1,000 estates.  Donnie's kids would make a KILLING (pardon the pun) out of this. ;)

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-should-know-about-the-federal-estate-tax

2)  Repeals the AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax):  The AMT requires people to pay a minimum amount of tax even though under the "regular tax rules" they would not be required to do so.  It "disallows" some exemptions (many of them real estate exemptions).  For the only tax return material we have on Trump.....his first 2 pages of his 2005 federal return....we know that the repeal of the AMT would have saved Trump $31 million bucks in 2005.  In other words...repealing the AMT would be a HUGE (BIGLY) gift to Donnie.

3)  Reduce tax rates for pass through entities (partnerships and "S Corporations"):  Currently......the individual receiving the income and deductions from a "pass through" entity....include those deductions and income on their INDIVIDUAL RETURNS.  So if someone is in a 35% tax bracket.....they would pay a 35% tax on that.

But what Donnie wants to do...is put a "max" rate of 15% on that "net income" (income after deductions) for the person receiving it.  For our mythical taxpayer in the 35% tax bracket....that would be a savings of 20%.  A LOT.  Many physician group practices, law firms, PR firms, and wall street firms are set up as "S Corporations" and this would be a HUGE BOON to those wealthy folks.

4) Lower the maximum individual rate down to 35% from 39.6%:  Obviously.....this again, helps the wealthy.  This isn't as "bad" as the above 3 items....because this certainly includes people who are not "uber wealthy"....they are just in the highest bracket.

I haven't even touched on the suggested change in the CORPORATE (C Corp....not S Corp which I talked about above) rate down to 15% from the current top rate of 35%.  This is a lengthier conversation.  Currently.....the US has a fairly high "stated rate" of 35%.....but the ACTUAL RATE (known as the "effective rate"...ie...the rate ACTUALLY PAID).....is actually about 22% which is very close to the same EFFECTIVE RATE paid in Europe.
 
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/04/trumps-tax-plan-will-make-trump-richer

If there were EVER a case for Donnie showing his tax returns.....THIS IS IT.

DONNIE......SHOW YOUR FUCKING TAX RETURNS BEFORE TAX POLICY IS DECIDED.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 04:05:44 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2293 on: April 27, 2017, 07:22:59 PM »
The next couple weeks should not be short on excitement.  But there is one thing I will "predict" over the next few months or more:

Donnie's #1 priority will become INCOME TAX REFORM.

Why?  Because Donnie will ALWAYS be Donnie.  And I think he knows that he may NOT be "long in the saddle" (he may not finish out his term).  And there is ONE THING that will benefit Donnie more than anything else.....and that is changes in tax policy.

And WITHIN changes in tax policy....Donnie's two most important things will be:

1)  Get rid of the estate tax
2)  Get rid of the AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax)

Those two things.....FAR more than anything else....will benefit Donnie.  He may use changes in the corporate tax rate as "bait" to trade with.....but Donnie will be going after the repeal of AMT and the estate tax.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2294 on: April 27, 2017, 07:48:42 PM »
There is nobody better at taking down Donald Trump.....than Donald Trump:

http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/04/27/seth-meyers-just-hilariously-skewered-ivanka-trump-100-days-hypocrisy/
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2295 on: April 28, 2017, 12:28:09 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Democrats Release 3 Bombshell Documents Showing That Trump WH Committed Crimes", which address both crimes committed by Flynn & the WH cover-up:

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/04/27/democrats-release-3-bombshell-documents-showing-trump-wh-committed-crimes.html
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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2296 on: April 28, 2017, 07:21:01 PM »
FYI.....

Pretty popular guy..... ;)

This is for the first 3 MONTHS of their presidency.  For Donnie....it ended April 19th.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2297 on: April 29, 2017, 08:02:07 PM »
Twitter Explodes Over Trump’s Surprise At The Demands Of Being President
“All this information was cunningly concealed by being put in books,” David Frum tweets.
Quote
After Donald Trump confessed to Reuters that he thought being president would be “easier” than it is, Twitter blew up with aghast responses from voters, people in politics and at least one former head of state, who pleaded with the president to please quit the White House and just stick to the golf links.

Trump’s remarks in an interview published Friday (”This is more work than in my previous life; I thought it would be easier”) drew a storm of comments expressing astonishment and derision, mostly delivered in the snarkiest way possible.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-presidency-easier-twitter_us_5903d72de4b05c39767fabad
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Neven

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2298 on: April 30, 2017, 12:47:03 AM »
Jimmy Dore has a great video showing how Trump has betrayed his voters so far:

! No longer available

That's the way to get a large part of the population on board to demand systemic changes. Not through 'grab 'em by the pussy' or 'Russia, Russia, Russia!'.

This is about more than Trump who is a symptom of what's wrong with the system (ie we only get offered a choice between kleptocrats). We need to change the system, not just get rid of Trump.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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DrTskoul

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Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #2299 on: April 30, 2017, 04:08:32 AM »
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We need to change the system, not just get rid of Trump.

As long as we don't lose sight of Trump and we get blown up..