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Author Topic: Trump to eliminate climate change research.  (Read 11410 times)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #100 on: December 18, 2016, 02:16:11 AM »
Here's a link to a video and descriptive article of California Governor Brown's upbeat speech at the AGU 16 conference.
It’s a genuine fighting speech, with a tone that is resolute but positive, rather than resentful or doomed. It’s a rousing call-to-battle against the environmental backwardness and larger disdain for fact of the coming era, from a person who as he nears age 80 has struck a distinctive Happy Warrior tone of resistance. Happy, in its confidence. Warrior, in its resoluteness.
https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/12/this-is-what-the-resistance-sounds-like/510899/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

6roucho

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #101 on: December 18, 2016, 09:48:28 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Researchers Are Preparing for Trump to Delete Government Science From the Web". 

On January 21, 2017 Trump will be empowered to shutdown most US federal government science websites that provide the public (including this forum) with climate change information.


http://motherboard.vice.com/read/researchers-are-preparing-for-trump-to-delete-government-science-from-the-web

Like all technologically naïve politicians who think they can supress information online, they'll fail. Let it be a lesson to them.

6roucho

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #102 on: December 18, 2016, 01:53:27 PM »
In Bush’s last year in office (2008) U.S. crude oil production averaged 5.0 million bpd (barrels per day). Under Obama, we've reached 9.4 million bpd in 2015 — a whopping 188% increase! Except it to be even higher in 2016. Also, this is from someone who supposedly understands our carbon-budget well.

TeaPotty, that's really not right.

I work in risk management in the oil & gas industry. Energy production decisions are taken ten, twenty or fifty years out. The lead time to peak production for an oilfield can easily be a decade, and in some cases, such as offshore, twenty years or longer. Most (maybe all?) of the oilfields included in those numbers have been live since *before* Obama, and perhaps before either Clinton or Bush.

Their specific output is the result of industrial decisions taken entirely outside the realm of government or politics. The tax incentives that made oil & gas so profitable in the United States have been in place since the Reagan years. The only way the government can reduce output is by reducing those tax incentives. That's one reason why decisions to mitigate carbon had to be taken a decade ago, to put in place new tax incentives, and thus reduce production.

If you want to beat current politics over the head, then try gas production and fracking, and the continuous eroding of regulation, over several administrations, aimed purely at changing the price, to make gas production seem profitable, by passing the real cost onto future generations. This is the "social cost" that the Trump administration is now gunning for.

Your fervour to exonerate one side is unhelpful. I say that as a fiscal conservative.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 02:17:38 PM by 6roucho »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #103 on: December 18, 2016, 06:26:34 PM »
Professor Michael Mann:

I’m a scientist who has gotten death threats. I fear what may happen under Trump.
... We are afraid that four (possibly eight) years of denial and delay might commit the planet to not just feet, but yards, of sea level rise, massive coastal flooding (made worse by more frequent Katrina and Sandy-like storms), historic deluges, and summer after summer of devastating heat and drought across the country.

We also fear an era of McCarthyist attacks on our work and our integrity. It’s easy to envision, because we’ve seen it all before. We know we could be hauled into Congress to face hostile questioning from climate change deniers. We know we could be publicly vilified by politicians. We know we could be at the receiving end of federal subpoenas demanding our personal emails. We know we could see our research grants audited or revoked.

I faced all of those things a decade ago, the last time Republicans had full control of our government....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/this-is-what-the-coming-attack-on-climate-science-could-look-like/2016/12/16/e015cc24-bd8c-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #104 on: December 18, 2016, 06:53:04 PM »
Professor Michael Mann:

I’m a scientist who has gotten death threats. I fear what may happen under Trump.
... We are afraid that four (possibly eight) years of denial and delay might commit the planet to not just feet, but yards, of sea level rise, massive coastal flooding (made worse by more frequent Katrina and Sandy-like storms), historic deluges, and summer after summer of devastating heat and drought across the country.

We also fear an era of McCarthyist attacks on our work and our integrity. It’s easy to envision, because we’ve seen it all before. We know we could be hauled into Congress to face hostile questioning from climate change deniers. We know we could be publicly vilified by politicians. We know we could be at the receiving end of federal subpoenas demanding our personal emails. We know we could see our research grants audited or revoked.

I faced all of those things a decade ago, the last time Republicans had full control of our government....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/this-is-what-the-coming-attack-on-climate-science-could-look-like/2016/12/16/e015cc24-bd8c-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html

Very real and frightening risk.

We, those who are in the know and it is a larger percent of the American population than we realize, need to crash the system of energy production. We need to start with fossil fuels but, in a broader sense, all energy consumption. We need to wage war, as consumers, on the consumption of energy. We need to use every available resource we have within our possession to reduce our consumption of energy. Consumption drives capitalism. Every single unit of energy that is produced is because a consumer has demanded it. Drive a dramatic reduction in energy and prices and production will collapse. We need to deliberately and quite consciously cause a massive wave of bankruptcies in the fossil fuel industry, destroy their ability to produce and wipe out the moneyed interests who provide the financial resources to produce it.

Someone might argue that this costs money and that most Americans do not have the resources to wage such a war. The simple fact is that the first initial and dramatic reduction, the first overwhelming and devastatingly effective salvo fired by human beings against the energy industrial complex does not cost any money at all. It, in fact, saves money. Money that can then be used to wage a vicious, scorched earth war. Every battle waged and won, every single one of them, will reduce the resources available to the enemy and increase the weapons we have available to win the war.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 07:08:30 PM by Shared Humanity »

Bruce Steele

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2016, 07:06:04 PM »
+1

OrganicSu

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2016, 07:37:53 PM »
+1
Bush asked Americans to consume to fight the enemy after 9/11.
SH is totally right. Keep your money in your pocket. Choose your consumptions carefully. Want a cup of tea? Boil only a cup of water, put another cup in afterwards and it will soak the residual heat. "If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown let it go down". Every single non purchase, including of electricity and water with periodic bills loosens the stranglehold...

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2016, 08:21:12 PM »
+1

Well said, SH and OrgSu
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2016, 04:02:15 AM »
Science is a collective activity. Programs that *make a difference* at a policy-making level rely on hundreds of programs that do pure science, out of public sight, except in places like this. So yes, the axing of pure research programs that "make no difference" will do irreparable harm.


Thats not an argument that refutes anything I wrote.

Our current BAU policies are the ones doing irreparable harm to our climate. Dismantling research will harm science somewhat, but not at the extent that some are suggesting, and wont make our current BAU policies significantly worse. Trump will never match Obama's fossil fuel production growth, nor will he succeed in deploying enough coal plants to come close to the nearly equal emissions from Obama's gas boom and their leaking fracking wells/pipes. Theres actually a very good chance that fossil fuel production growth will slow down under Trump because we've already grown production so much, lol.

TeaPotty, that's really not right.

I work in risk management in the oil & gas industry. Energy production decisions are taken ten, twenty or fifty years out. The lead time to peak production for an oilfield can easily be a decade, and in some cases, such as offshore, twenty years or longer. Most (maybe all?) of the oilfields included in those numbers have been live since *before* Obama, and perhaps before either Clinton or Bush.

Their specific output is the result of industrial decisions taken entirely outside the realm of government or politics. The tax incentives that made oil & gas so profitable in the United States have been in place since the Reagan years. The only way the government can reduce output is by reducing those tax incentives


So you're saying that oil production will decrease under Trump because of Obama's actions? Did Reagan not effect production in his term?

This story you're telling is just that - thats not how politics works. A president can push various industries through various levers and executive policies. If you're going to be stubborn and insist otherwise, I will not continue discussion with such sophomoric analysis wasting my time and others.

The fossil fuel industry knew it invested wisely when it poured money on establishment Dems, most notably Obama & Hillary.

Your fervour to exonerate one side is unhelpful. I say that as a fiscal conservative.


1) You're proving again that you don't seem to remember what you read. I've said time and time again the only way significant climate action will occur is through revolution, and not through either establishment parties.

I've explained that we have irrefutable evidence from leaks of both establishment parties working together against the public's wishes. Leaks from Snowden, Wikileaks, and Manning have been verified by checksum, meaning its pointless to argue against their authenticity. We even have a study from Princeton proving from over 30 years of political data that the major factor in whether a bill passes or not is support of the 1%, regardless of what the public wants. We just had a Dem primary where the most significant Climate candidate (Bernie Sanders) ever led the largest uprising here since the American Revolution, and in return was blacklisted and later smeared by the Dem party in collusion with the media. Did you not see all the emails to journalists telling them what narrative to push in the news? The party spent millions on online trolls laughing at Progressives' agenda, more than they spent on outreach to any minority group. They threw money at violent actors to storm Trump & Bernie rallies just so they can push negative headlines and claim those ppl were candidate supporters. Money was even funneled through state parties so Hillary could circumvent individual donation limits, since most of her money cam from wealthy ppl and industries. Bernie received more contributions than any candidate in any election in American history, even more than Obama's 2008 massive general election campaign. When all that failed the primary had to be rigged for Hillary to win, even as polls showed her likely to lose to Trump.

Dems lose bc Progressives/Leftists and much of the climate movement punished the party for what has clearly become an abusive relationship. Its time to grow a spine and stop kissing the ass of evil people. When it was clear in the primary that we had the majority power, there was such a strong feeling of hope for us Millennial's future. You would actually hear ppl talk about it, we finally had a candidate we absolutely knew would push as hard as he could to cut emissions urgently. There was absolutely no hope with Hillary, who would have undoubtedly maintained the same BAU climate path as Obama, and told her 1% pals that ppl who want to cut carbon should "get a life".

2) You're a fiscal conservative? No wonder you're fine with Obama fucking over the working ppl who voted for him.


I agree based upon what you have written in several posts.
However I would much prefer the CC research programs and environmental protection rules stay and are reinforced rather than dismantled.


Agreed, I wish Bernie Sanders was president now too. My point was more that we already were ignoring the research, with the assistance of establishment scientists.



Tea Potty, once again I agree with most of what you say. However I invite you to examine these points.

1. Up until recently, if you even mentioned that climate change will have consequences in our lifetimes you would have gain the scorn of any serious scientist.  What the scientist told Obama was that temp would rise by 2C in a century, the arctic will last until 2070. So Obama invested in pure research as if we had time. Sure there was risk for us but it would be perfectly manageable for now. Right now that doesn't seem to be the case, but in 2008 that was the best science.

 
We knew by 2008 that we had much bigger problems than 2C, and that we were running out of time.

! No longer available


Obama didn't bring about any surge in climate science. History will not be so kind to him because his direct actions speak for themselves. James Hansen said about Obama's Paris Climate Agreement (my emphasis):

  • Obama is not proposing the action required for the essential change in energy policy direction
  • How can such miserable failure of political leadership be explained
  • Get ready for the great deceit and hypocrisy planned for December in Paris
  • Negotiators do not want the global leaders to look like fools again, as they did in Copenhagen. They are determined to have leaders clap each other on the back and declare the Paris climate negotiations a success.
  • They express optimism on the Paris summit, citing an agreement of the U.S. and China to work together to develop carbon capture and storage (CCS). That spin is so gross, it is best described as unadulterated 100% pure bullshit.
  • I am only pointing out the dishonest spin that is being put on total failure to address the fundamental issue.
  • I have suggested, asked, or begged lawmakers, in more nations and states than I can remember, to consider a simple, honest, rising carbon fee with all funds distributed to legal residents... Instead legislation is proposed by liberal governments who want funds for bigger government or programs such as renewable energy subsidies. A carbon tax is hidden in “cap-and-trade-with-offsets”, yielding higher energy prices, more government controls, and a burden on the public and businesses. The proposed bill in the United States (Waxman/Markey) included 3500 pages of giveaways to every lobbyist who could raise his arm to write a paragraph that was then stapled into the bill.
  • “(Many have said) we need a carbon price and (investment) would be so much easier with a carbon price,” Figueres said, “but life is much more complex than that.” Baloney. A flat carbon fee is too complex? Figueres deserves our respect and thanks for hard work, but we cannot let politeness damage the future of our planet and loved ones.
  • The danger that Paris may mimic Kyoto is heightened by the “guard rail” concept, which allows governments to promise future emission reductions rather than set up a framework that fosters rapid emissions reductions.
  • note that his signature victory (EPA regulations that reduce domestic emissions), assuming that it stands up in court, amounts to only several percent of U.S. emissions
  • Obama’s climate legacy, on his present course, will be worse than a miserable failure
  • Watch what happens in Paris carefully to see if all that the leaders do is sign off on the pap that UN bureaucrats are putting together, indulgences and promises to reduce future emissions, and then clap each other on the back and declare success.

    In that case President Obama will have sold our children, and theirs, down the river.

3.  To make matter worse, traitor congressmen both dems and reps, did not allow him to govern, mostly because he is black with a muslim name and that scared the shit out of xenophobes.  Pretty much all of Obama's accomplishments come from executive action


Welcome to political theater. Most of this noise was pushed by the establishment of both parties to provide cover for some incredibly ugly policies they wanted. Every negotiation with Republicans started with Obama first offerting THEIR position on a silver platter. Then the Republicans would cry that he's a LEFTIST COMMUNIST & throw a tantrum until he moved further and further and further right. If you follow politics down to the nitty gritty ugly procedures with wierd names in congress like C-SPAN, this is what you saw. Obama signed off on really really really bad bills, willingly. Obama got a lot done with the Republican majority congress he fought for, and TPP was a love affair where both parties were practically hugging in public from joy of their success. Among a nearly endless list of Wall-St/Banker Christmas wishes,TPP also directly prevents a populist uprising from properly addressing Climate Change, namely through a secret international business  tribunal (court) not accountable to the public.

Under Obama we DOUBLED fossil fuel production. Our government has been hostile and violent to any uprisings and protests, like Keystone Pipeline, Dakota Access Pipeline, Occupy, Black Lives Matters, and the current Left huge uprising sparked by Bernie Sanders. His PR-pushed "good" actions were inadequate at best.

There is no need to make excuses for any man or party who uses their power to make our crisis worse, which he undeniably has.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 02:58:16 AM by TeaPotty »

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #109 on: December 19, 2016, 07:14:09 AM »
Tea Potty:

Consider the following scenario: Bernie Sanders is our President-elect, the Democrats have taken a majority in the Senate, while the Republicans control the House. What do you think a Sander's presidency would accomplish in it's first term? Are the Republicans going to suddenly become cooperative? With close to fifty percent of the electorate voting for Trump, how is any president going to do a 180 degree turn with respect to climate change legislation?

You've had it fairly easy so far in the Forum, batting away objections without having to come up with solid ideas of your own on how to make things better. Granted, you have an impressive amount of facts and figures to throw at us, how about coming up with some solutions? You say you want a revolution, well as much as I'd like to see one with respect to our climate change approach, It isn't going to be alright when a majority of the country is opposed to it.

Let me put the question even more directly, what could pres-elect Tea Potty do in his first four years to make things better? Calling a member's argument "sophomoric" and "stubborn" will not help you build consensus. All you're going to do is alienate people. 

« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 08:23:59 AM by budmantis »
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2016, 08:33:15 AM »
Tea Potty:

Consider the following scenario: Bernie Sanders is our President-elect, the Democrats have taken a majority in the Senate, while the Republicans control the House. What do you think a Sander's presidency would accomplish in it's first term? Are the Republicans going to suddenly become cooperative? With close to fifty percent of the electorate voting for Trump, how is any president going to do a 180 degree turn with respect to climate change legislation?

...Calling a member's argument "sophomoric" and "stubborn" will not help you build consensus. All you're going to do is alienate people.


First, he didn't make an argument. He wrote many words to suggest depth where there was none. Its very clear when discussing politics with people who is actually informed and who believes the MSM, and these two are growing more separate by the day.

Second, your argument of "what could you accomplish in 4 years?" is an absurd attempt at apologizing for Obama's bad actions. Did he use all his charisma and influence to spread the importance of cutting carbon so that billions wont die? No. Did he even try to make a serious push for significant climate action? No. Had Obama made a sincere attempt, then one could throw this argument at me "what would you do?". At least Bernie would have tried.

You want ideas? We're FUCKED. Its time to get this through our collective skulls. Stop praising a man who called himself a savior for bringing a bucket to stop a flood. The only reason we got into this horrible mess now is because of this endless ass-kissing of politicians and being team players, an incredibly naive perspective of many scientists and academics who want to claim objectivity. We have verified leaks and bills like TPP proving Dems oppose real climate action, so its a fact whether you want to accept it or not.

I wonder if you supported the Iraq War in the beginning back when ppl like me were arguing that there is no proof, and establishment Dems lined up to vote for it like good soldiers, Hillary even making a speech to convince others. Now we see bullshit like "Russia interfered with our election". Anyone who believes this is falling for the same american empire fake news that brought you Iraq, not a shred of evidence of Russian tampering (as verified Dec 15 by Loretta Lynch & John Kerry). Besides, its rather funny the Dem party is suggesting Russia is interefering in our election by revealing the Democrats interfering with elections. Is this OK in your eyes because they aren't Republicans?


The only chance we have now is REVOLUTION, and we almost had one this election, no thanks to Liberals.

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2016, 03:19:03 PM »

The only chance we have now is REVOLUTION, and we almost had one this election, no thanks to Liberals.

You still haven't answered my question as to what could be expected from a Sander's presidency. More vitriol and polemics will not win you many converts. I've enjoyed the challenge Tea Potty, but I see no point in discussing this further. Good luck with your REVOLUTION.
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

Archimid

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2016, 03:48:10 PM »
I admit I have a bias for Obama. Back in 2008 when I saw the types of attacks he received and his reaction to them, I promised myself to always give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't do that for anybody else.  He was taking the Martin Luther King approach and did so until the very end of his presidency. Very few people backed him. Most swallowed the propaganda and joined up the Obama bashing.

I wonder what if I was in his position? I debate climate change deniers quite often and it is absolutely incredible the lengths people can go to protect themselves from inconvenient truths. I can only imagine the sort of opposition he was facing, where facts didn't matter and honor was laughed at. Imagine debating a climate change denier on the oval office. Imagine they go through their mental loops instead of acting like people with fiduciary responsibilities. How would you deal with that?

I don't blame Obama because we left him alone. Clinton on the other hand I have no trust. She voted for the Iraq war and the patriot act. To make matters worse she said Putin hacked the election for a personal vendetta. That confirms to me that she was not the climate change candidate. That Donald Trump is the other option scares the living hell out of me, because it will be a very bitter medicine, bordering on poison.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2016, 03:52:33 PM »

The only chance we have now is REVOLUTION, and we almost had one this election, no thanks to Liberals.

You still haven't answered my question as to what could be expected from a Sander's presidency. More vitriol and polemics will not win you many converts. I've enjoyed the challenge Tea Potty, but I see no point in discussing this further. Good luck with your REVOLUTION.

Won't win me many converts? Concern trolling me and this forum with "what would you have done?" is pathetic, and trying desperately to make this about me to deflect is sad. You conceded the argument when you started attacking me instead of addressing the irrefutable facts I raised. Namely, that your precious Obama fucked us over with every decision he made in office.

Once again, the Leftist/Profressive movement sparked by Bernie is the largest political uprising in American History. By polls, he is still the most popular politician in America. Had Bernie been the candidate, we would have sweeped the Senate and the House. That's the only chance we have now, Revolution. Since you don't have a better strategy and a huge coalition like ours to enact change, I suggest it's time to educate yourself rather than throw snark at those who are trying to change things.

Now that we are out of time to deal with climate change, those who for years promoted the current failed strategy can be dismissed and ignored. They've failed and yet they still insist that only they know best. Time to move over for a new generation who wants to actually save their future.



That Donald Trump is the other option scares the living hell out of me, because it will be a very bitter medicine, bordering on poison.

It won't be so bad as you think. The media is largely to blame for turning this simple asshole into Hitler/Boogeyman. We had to punish the Dem party so that we can take over the party and win the next election. Hillary would have used her power to further suppress the Leftist agenda of economic justice and climate change. So better a strong chance for change in 4 years, rather than 8 more years of BAU, and a combination of voter ass-kissing of climate destruction and apathy to the scale of necessary action.

Ppl are angry now, so mission accomplished. Time to wake the fuck up and channel it for something productive.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 03:00:05 AM by TeaPotty »

Archimid

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #114 on: December 20, 2016, 03:55:52 PM »
It won't be so bad as you think. The media is largely to blame for turning this simple asshole into Hitler/Boogeyman.


Here we disagree completely. The media has failed to portray the reality of the situation correctly, for the same reasons they failed to portray the reality of climate change. Fear. The Donald Trump presidency will be a historic one, like Hitler's was.

First, a little background on Trump.

1. His father was very like a member of the KKK
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/all-the-evidence-we-could-find-about-fred-trumps-alleged-involvement-with-the-kkk

2. With actions and rhetoric he has exemplified racism
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e8

3. The two people that he picked first, Bannon and Sessions are well known racist. Sessions was denied a confirmation once for being too racist. Bannon, welll just read Bannon's writings.


Donald Trump is very likely to be a KKK member himself. Of course the KKK is a secret organization, so if he is a member or not it is very hard to know. But even if he isn't he is influenced by KKK and he very obviously exerts influence over them.


SO what this has to do with climate change research?  Everything. Racism is basically ignorance and fear that gets rationalized into all sorts of reasons. This people are primed and guided by logical fallacies that must hold true for their universes to be. They even convince themselves that they are not racists because they have black friends or employees.

Their policies will reflect that foolishness. They will enact laws that in their distorted little minds seem like they will fix the problem. For example Muslim registries to fix terrorism, deportation camps and classifying climate science for "national security". They will abolish environmental protections and "not in my backyard" will be a thing of the past.


All this wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for Climate Change. Climate change is already getting expensive and slowing down the global economy. As the Arctic continues it's collapse is not going to get better. 

Do you remember the Ebola scare? DO you know what was Trump solution at the time?

His tweet says it all:" The U.S. cannot allow EBOLA infected people back. People that go to far away places to help out are great-but must suffer the consequences!" https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/495379061972410369?lang=en

Of course we all know that by the CDC and other international agencies working together using science hard work and determination Ebola was contained. Trump wanted to create an international nightmare. That's how Trump will react to the coming natural and political climate change.

Donald Trump presidency is a paradigm shift.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #115 on: December 21, 2016, 10:39:52 AM »
The Donald Trump presidency will be a historic one, like Hitler's was.

As a dark skinned person I'm telling you your confusing racism and bigotry, and which Trump is the latter. But I'm guessing your experience with it is limited to what you read. And as a Jew, I say your  comparison to Hitler is insulting. Your actually minimizing what millions of ppl went through bc of blind tribalism.

Archimid

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #116 on: December 21, 2016, 02:09:33 PM »
As a dark skinned person


So am I.

I'm telling you your confusing racism and bigotry, and which Trump is the latter.


No I'm not. Trump is both a racist and a bigot. If you can't tell how racist he is, then you simply didn't pay attention to the rhetoric and you are ignoring the racist things he has done and said all throughout his life. He is the very definition of the modern racist. I find it Ironic that you criticize Gavin Schimdt  for not being alarmist enough, but then you do the same thing when tallking about Trump.

 
And as a Jew, I say your  comparison to Hitler is insulting


As a Jew you should be more vigilant than most, too bad you have lowered you guard. Trump won using exactly the same rhetoric as Hitler did at the beginning. He is going to make his nation great again by getting rid of scapegoats.  Here is a list of 25 points of Hitler's Nazi Party.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm

Substitute Jew for Muslim and you have a carbon copy of Donald Trump's campaign.

Just like Hitler, the "final Solution " is not the first option to "clean" the country and make the country great again.  The final solution was the result of decades of desperate attempts to clean society from Jews and immigrants. Because of war and politics complications instead of just deporting Jews and immigrant, they killed them.

Your actually minimizing what millions of ppl went through bc of blind tribalism.


No I'm telling you that history repeats and there are too many parallels between the rethoric and sentiment of Trumps life, campaign and cabinet choices to ignore.

Of course is not easy to accept this is happening, just like is not easy to accept what is happening to our climate, but ignoring it will only make it worse.

But I digress. Donald Trump  is indeed the best candidate for climate change. His ignorant racism and world view will, with the help of Putin's snake advice, throw the world economy into termoil. The world and the US economy will greatly diminish, reducing CO2 emissions like Clinton never could. Sure it will suck for everyone on the first world, but it most be done.
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budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #117 on: December 21, 2016, 02:32:25 PM »

We had to punish the Dem party so that we can take over the party and win the next election.


Who did you vote for on November 8?
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

Shared Humanity

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2016, 02:51:04 PM »
Oil production, while it can certainly be influenced by incentives, is essentially market driven. As prices spiked well over $100 per barrel, sources previously not profitable (shale oil, tar sands) were put into production. As the price of a barrel collapsed, the companies who bet big on these sources started losing their shirts and bankruptcies have decimated the industry. Do you want to help keep this kind of oil in the ground? For that matter, do you want to reduce the consumption of all types of fossil fuels? Make every purchase with the intent of reducing your consumption of energy.

ghoti

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2016, 04:42:31 AM »
Better yet if you need a car get one with a plug!

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #120 on: December 23, 2016, 05:48:38 AM »
Or at least use a car that gets 40mpg on the highway!
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #121 on: December 23, 2016, 09:28:36 PM »
Trump Climate Deniers Prompt Scared Scientists to Set Up Hotline
• Researchers scramble to back up U.S. global-warming research
• ‘An observation not made is lost forever,’ a scientist says
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-12-20/trump-climate-deniers-prompt-scared-scientists-to-set-up-hotline
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #122 on: December 25, 2016, 02:10:39 PM »
"Happy Christmas to all our scientists who are spending the festive season in the field."
https://twitter.com/nercscience/status/812963632761999361
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #123 on: December 27, 2016, 03:47:47 AM »
Problem solved!  :o  :-X  >:(

‘Orwellian’: Scott Walker admin. quietly scrubs mentions of ‘climate’ from ‘Climate Change’ website
Republican Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker’s administration has removed the word “climate” from a Department of Natural Resources website dedicated to climate change.

Throughout his time as governor of Wisconsin, Walker has taken a series of actions to “reduce the role of science in environmental policymaking and to silence discussion of controversial subjects, including climate change, by state employees,” according to the Scientific American.

Political writer James Rowen reported on Monday that the Walker administration had advanced their war on science by scrubbing information about climate change from a Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources website that was dedicated to explaining how the agency would deal with a warming planet.
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/12/orwellian-scott-walker-admin-quietly-scrubs-mentions-of-climate-from-climate-change-website/
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budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #124 on: January 02, 2017, 01:14:14 AM »
Archimid:

Referencing your reply #116 to Tea Potty, I would have liked to hear his response. Unfortunately, he decided to vent elsewhere, perhaps another blog where he wont be challenged. Great response by the way!
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #125 on: January 02, 2017, 03:33:50 AM »
Archimid:

Referencing your reply #116 to Tea Potty, I would have liked to hear his response. Unfortunately, he decided to vent elsewhere, perhaps another blog where he wont be challenged. Great response by the way!

Nah, just no point in arguing with a bunch of amateurs. Not my fault you wont accept or educate yourself on the reality revealed to us through leaks from Snowden and Wikileaks. This is bc you are mostly concerned with "feeling" right.

Its also offensive to compare people like Trump to Hitler if they havent actually enslaved and murdered millions, just so you can promote "The Narrative". If anything, Obama and moreso Hillary are responsible for the deaths of many more innocents than Trump ever has.

We Millennials cannot afford such ideological purity - we are trying to take every practical step possible to give us the best chance to improve the sorrid future waiting for us. Hillary would have done less than Obama's symbolic-action, and thats a fact if you actually care to ever look them up.

You seem to think that throwing a few smart-ass comments at me will change reality. What I've described is history - the facts and reaction of millions of independents and millennials who used their voting power against a crook like Hillary. Go argue with them if you want, plenty of forums around for the movement on a variety of platforms and sites are still going.

Or, keep believing the paradoxical conspiracy-theory that the leaks that caused Hillary to lose were caused by Russia, and yet somehow the leaks were also a nothing-burger and didn't reveal primary rigging against Bernie among many other anti-Left and anti-Climate stances.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 10:16:54 AM by TeaPotty »

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #126 on: January 02, 2017, 05:53:50 AM »
Welcome back Tea Potty, I think. You're beginning to sound like a broken record and you haven't answered Archimid's post or my question about who you voted for. I've been waiting to see if you would respond, but you haven't logged in, at least to my knowledge. If that is the case, you've been lurking, not wanting to answer our queries. Glad to see you responded to my latest post. Will you now respond to Archimid's post and tell me who you voted for on November 8?

As a millennial, it's easy and also understandable why you blame the older generation for all the problems we face. Keep in mind that in another 20 to 30 years you'll be in our position and the younger generation will judge you accordingly. I wonder what they'll say about the millennials? Will history judge them to be no better than us baby boomer's? Hindsight being 20/20, I know we absconded with many opportunities and we deserve to be judged harshly by the younger generation. We did make some progress but absconded with most of the opportunities that we were presented with.

I know you've got a fire in your belly, use it to make a difference in this world. In the words of Gandhi; "Be the change you wish to see in this world." The alternative is to continue with your incendiary rhetoric, which will accomplish nothing.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 06:05:41 AM by budmantis »
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #127 on: January 02, 2017, 07:47:36 AM »
....Will you now respond to Archimid's post and tell me who you voted for on November 8?
Budmantis - you sound like a bully to me. You know that voting in the US is by closed ballot? It is in Ireland too and I've never once been privileged to know who my parents voted for. I have asked but never been told. If I had harassed them as you do I'm sure I would have been even less likely to have been told.

Gray-Wolf

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #128 on: January 02, 2017, 12:31:39 PM »
I take it nobody else thinks it odd that last year both the UK and US went through something that effectively split the population in two ( and not in a nice way?). We have the middle east bust open by factions fighting one another. basically we have a world where many of those 'in positions of power' have allowed /manoeuvred discontent...... the mother of all " Oooh! , look, a squirrel "

Does something this way come?
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Archimid

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #129 on: January 02, 2017, 02:54:07 PM »
"The Narrative".

"The narrative" is exactly what we should fear. Remember that Hitler came into power in 1933, but the final solution was not implemented until a decade later. I'm sure that almost no one, not even Hitler thought that genocide was going to be the solution. At first they just wanted to remove any scapegoat that would give them a false sense of security. That was "The Narrative". At first, intimidation and lopsided applications of the laws was all they needed to implement "The Narrative".  But things got out of hand with the results we all know.

It is the same with Trump and his racist followers but different. They believe that America is for Americans, so long as Americans are defined as white or thoroughly white washed minorities. They believe that the source of their problems are immigrants and Muslims (with Bannon  throwing the Jews in for good measure). As such they will enact policies that will take away from the unprotected minorities to give collaborators a false sense of security. That will only create hate and economic disruption but collaborators will come out on top.

That was the first step for not only Nazi Germany, but many other once great countries that fell in the hands of strongmen. I think that will be the limit of the racist policies of Trump and the GOP in 4 years if the Arctic holds.

The big wild card here is climate change, particularly a tipping point like a Blue Ocean Event. If such thing happens forget about economic growth. There will be shortages and war.

In that case you have someone with the same ignorant racist world view as Hitler dealing from a position of austerity and emergency.  They will do what honorless ignorants do, they will blame other people. They will fabricate cases and make them extremely public and use the patriot act to silence anyone who voices dissent. They will implement reactionary non-solutions that makes them feel safe and make matters worse in the process.

I don't think we'll have gas chambers for people, but quarantined and road blocked zones could prove just as deadly, which would be the strategy of fools like Trump.



If anything, Obama and moreso Hillary are responsible for the deaths of many more innocents than Trump ever has.

Ughh. That is a very false three way equivalency. Between Obama, Clinton and Trump, Clinton has directly killed the most innocent people. She voted for the Iraq war, twice. Obama was not in a position to make that decision and neither was Trump. That's a million Iraqis on her list, not counting the terrorism it generated. But taking that aside, you can't compare her list with Obama's list. Clinton was Obama's Secretary of State, Clinton was complicit on Obama's list.  Trump has never been in a position of power. In 4 years, let's comeback and make that equivalency again to see who will have the longest list. 


Or, keep believing the paradoxical conspiracy-theory that the leaks that caused Hillary to lose were caused by Russia, and yet somehow the leaks were also a nothing-burger and didn't reveal primary rigging against Bernie among many other anti-Left and anti-Climate stances.

I fail to see the paradox. Putin has all the reasons in the world to help elect an ignorant racist as president of the USA. The President-elect nominations should make that crystal clear to any observer. I doubt that Donald Trump is even aware that how he is being used. 

But the election rigging is real, and is not just the emails. Russia used the same techniques the CIA, the KGB and any two bit intelligence agency  have been using for decades all over South America, Africa and smaller Asian countries.  They didn't have to rig the votes, all they did was give a little help with the propaganda.
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budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #130 on: January 02, 2017, 03:27:43 PM »
....Will you now respond to Archimid's post and tell me who you voted for on November 8?
Budmantis - you sound like a bully to me. You know that voting in the US is by closed ballot? It is in Ireland too and I've never once been privileged to know who my parents voted for. I have asked but never been told. If I had harassed them as you do I'm sure I would have been even less likely to have been told.

It was not my intention to be a bully, but clearly it is time for me to back off. My point was not to find out who Tea Potty voted for, but to get a straight answer, which could have been "none of your business"!

My frustration with Tea Potty is not that he's critical of my political points of view. When I asked him what he thought Bernie Sanders could have accomplished as President, with Republicans being a considerable obstacle to overcome, I never got a straight answer. He just reverts to his talking points and inflammatory rhetoric.

Thanks for your post and thanks also to Grey Wolf for your post.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 03:54:35 PM by budmantis »
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #131 on: January 02, 2017, 09:00:07 PM »
I take it nobody else thinks it odd that last year both the UK and US went through something that effectively split the population in two ( and not in a nice way?). We have the middle east bust open by factions fighting one another. basically we have a world where many of those 'in positions of power' have allowed /manoeuvred discontent...... the mother of all " Oooh! , look, a squirrel "

Does something this way come?


Progress does not proceed in a straight line;  there are always fits and starts of going in a different direction.  But Trump's instability may trigger countries who are 'teetering on a precipice' to fall -- one way or the other.  Russia and China would love to take over as world leaders when other countries decide the U.S. can no longer be trusted.

US now a wildcard in global affairs
Of course, the 15 years since the September 11 attacks have been dominated by war, strife and economic disruption. But what makes 2017 so unique is that America -- long a force for stability -- is poised to inaugurate one of the most impulsive presidents ever to walk into the Oval Office.

Far from acting as a brake against turmoil sweeping the globe, America under Trump could exacerbate it. Nicholas Dungan, an Atlantic Council senior fellow, said uncertainty about the President-elect could widen divides in the transatlantic alliance, the bedrock of 70 years of Western stability.

"Donald Trump is in many respects the anti-Barack Obama," said Dungan, who teaches at Sciences Po, an international research university in France. "With Obama, there was tremendous trust but very little performance. With Trump it looks like there will be a deficit of trust and a surfeit of action."
http://www.wcyb.com/news/politics/us-now-a-wildcard-in-global-affairs/243203886
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sidd

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #132 on: January 02, 2017, 09:39:07 PM »
" ... America -- long a force for stability ..."

This characterization is quite disputable, but perhaps this forum is not the right place to discuss it.

Neven

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #133 on: January 02, 2017, 09:44:57 PM »
You can't force TeaPotty to answer, and then say he sounds like a broken record.  ::)

As for Bernie Sanders being president (assuming he would have made it, although I presume he would've done better than La Clinton): Maybe he wouldn't have achieved much, but we would've been spared all the mediagenic posturing and those glamour parties at the White House. Bernie simply isn't as pretty as Obama, and he seems to be pretty principled and not afraid to speak out.

Would Bernie leave Guantanamo open, continue and expand wars in the Middle East, and increase drone attacks? I doubt it. But that's exactly what Obama did, and Hillary would've done for sure.

If Trump discontinues these policies, great. If he doesn't, at least half the US population won't be lulled to sleep by shiny rhetoric.  Or won't they?

I'm sorry, I'm just a bloody European watching too much Jimmy Dore shows.  ;D
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #134 on: January 02, 2017, 10:07:43 PM »
Welcome back Tea Potty, I think. You're beginning to sound like a broken record and you haven't answered Archimid's post or my question about who you voted for.

This question is way out of bounds. I would not answer it either.

charles_oil

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #135 on: January 03, 2017, 01:01:27 AM »
Great news article on Sky News following the Knighthood - Sir David Hempleman-Adams speaks out:

http://news.sky.com/video/climate-change-trump-will-have-to-accommodate-facts-10716277

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-wiltshire-38488784

Will Trump take any notice ?

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #136 on: January 03, 2017, 06:36:19 AM »
You can't force TeaPotty to answer, and then say he sounds like a broken record.  ::)

I'm sorry, I'm just a bloody European watching too much Jimmy Dore shows.  ;D

Chances are he wrote in Bernie Sanders, which is something I considered doing myself, and I have no problems with Europeans, bloody or otherwise! Although I voted for Clinton, I really didn't want her to be President anyway. It was time for a change and I would have preferred Bernie Sanders to have been the Democratic nominee. Back in September you said you wouldn't want to have to decide who to vote for in the Presidential poll thread, if you could have voted, I wonder what your decision would have been, but I wont ask. To me, it was an agonizing choice. Vote for Trump, never! Vote for Clinton? As a means to deny the presidency to Trump, yes.

What I was trying to point out to Tea Potty was the reality of the situation here in the U.S. politically speaking. Even with Sanders as President and the Democrats having a majority in both houses of Congress, he would have faced an uphill battle in advancing any reforms he wanted to initiate. My question to Tea Potty was how does anyone as President achieve progress in this country with so many obstacles to get over? In my opinion, I still have not received an answer, just more talking points and obfuscations. In other words, a broken record.

I voted for Obama twice and although he didn't do as well as he could have, I believe he did well, especially considering the obstacles he faced. The Affordable Care Act managed to get passed with no help at all from the Republicans, now it's likely to be repealed. My wife and I have been beneficiaries of the ACA. I've defended Obama many times over the past eight years with family, friends and fellow barmates who thought he was illegitimate and too liberal to be President. Now it seems I have to defend him for not being liberal enough?

I am always open to constructive criticism, perhaps OrganicSu, yourself and Shared Humanity should offer some to Tea Potty as well. I can see that I hold a minority opinion here, so I will not post anything further on this issue, unless it is in my own defense.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 09:00:30 AM by budmantis »
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #137 on: January 03, 2017, 06:54:56 AM »
Welcome back Tea Potty, I think. You're beginning to sound like a broken record and you haven't answered Archimid's post or my question about who you voted for.

This question is way out of bounds. I would not answer it either.

Point taken, as I've already mentioned.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 05:21:07 PM by budmantis »
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2017, 12:54:07 AM »
My Response to Joe Romm's Medium Essay that Lets Democrats off the Hook on Climate Change
http://caucus99percent.com/content/my-response-joe-romms-medium-essay-lets-democrats-hook-climate-change

Like may liberals, he's either under the mistaken impression that Democrats actually give a damn about taking steps to address anthropogenic global warming and the climate disruption it is causing, or he has chosen to deliberately ignore that Democrats, despite the lip service they occasionally pay the matter to pander to environmentalists while continuing to accept money from the fossil fuel industries and do the least possible to address what is now literally a worldwide "hair on fire" situation, one in which warming is accelerating at a rate unforeseen even by the climate scientists themselves only a few years ago.


...he takes dead aim at Trump and the GOP, while failing to acknowledge that the record of Democrats regarding climate change is hardly any better, and in some respects, worse, since they give the impression they actually care about doing something when the truth of the matter is that most of them are in bed with Big Oil and could not care less.


Think Progress (and thus Climate Progress, as well) is "a project of the Center for American Progress (CAP)," an liberal establishment "think tank" whose board of directors and executive staff read like a Who's Who of the Democratic elite. Indeed, CAP's CEO and President is Neera Tanden, a Clinton advisor and loyalist


while I agree that Trump is certainly bad news for America in terms of his policies on climate change, I find it naive, at best, and disingenuous, at worst, to pretend the Democrats would have done anything to reduce carbon emissions significantly under a Clinton administration.

In fact, both Obama and Clinton were avid supporters of the TPP and other trade deals. These deals (as do current ones such as NAFTA) would have permitted corporations to override our current environmental laws and protections in secret tribunals staffed by corporate friendly judges and lawyers.

Not surprisingly, I find the entire premise that Democrats would have done anything to advance the goals of the Paris climate agreement both ludicrous and deceitful. One need look no further than Clinton's choice of Tim Kaine, a known free trade and TPP supporter, as her running mate, and the actions by the Clinton campaign to "steamroll" Sanders' appointees to the platform committee when they tried to get provisions rejecting the TPP inserted. Add to that the fact that at the Democratic National Convention, Sanders' delegates protesting the TPP were aggressively censored, and you have all the evidence you need to know about what the Democratic elites really think about protecting the world from our ongoing climate crisis.

After all, it was Clinton herself, in the middle of her campaign that said "environmentalists need to get a life" in a private meeting with labor leaders. Trump, at least did not hide his opinion of climate change and, more importantly, what he plans to do to promote fossil fuels. Clinton would have delayed implementation of anything to advance the "pledges" set forth in the Paris accord, and lied all the while about her desire to support the planet while she did so. At least with Trump in office, the Democrats publicly will actively advocate for a pro-environmental agenda in reaction to Trump, rather than surreptitiously support an anti-environmental one


...come out and demand real change from the Democratic establishment in addition to merely writing click bait screeds against Trump and the GOP. Anyone can do that in their sleep. It takes real courage and conviction to come out against the secret pro-fossil fuel agenda




In our modern political theater Republicans are the ones shooting at us, and Democrats are the ones who show up to take photos with the media holding bandaids and "We Care" posters.

Every bad legislation that Trump signs will be at the hand of Democrats as well, since the Republicans dont have a majority in congress.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 01:01:52 AM by TeaPotty »

TerryM

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #139 on: January 05, 2017, 09:53:59 AM »
TP


The election is over.


Your arguments parrot the words of Stephen Harper's conservatives here in Canada. just prior to them bailing out on Canada's climate commitments. their silencing of climate scientists, and their full support of various tar sands projects.


Save your vitriol for the incoming administration, they'll do plenty to earn it.


Terry

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #140 on: January 05, 2017, 03:12:17 PM »

Every bad legislation that Trump signs will be at the hand of Democrats as well, since the Republicans dont have a majority in congress.

The Republicans do have a majority in Congress.
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #141 on: January 06, 2017, 08:30:45 AM »
The election is over.

...Save your vitriol for the incoming administration, they'll do plenty to earn it.

Terry


Nothing is over. The party is still fighting off internal change, trying to deny ppl who share Bernie's views from entering or taking leadership roles. To fight climate change, we have to take control of the party. Their is no other option available for Millennials like myself if we wish to avoid experiencing a collapse of civilization.

Maybe you havent noticed, but there is an election for Dem party chair Feb 23-26, and Keith Ellison is being smeared in disgusting ways by the party heads. Keith has the record of a true Progressive, especially on Climate Change, so of course the corrupt corporate party heads oppose him.

This is the same party who purposely lost seats in congress to Republicans in 2010 and 2014 by not funding Progressive candidates, while throwing money at pro-corporate candidates (most who lost). This was so Obama could get his Fast Track Authority so he could sign TPP into law without public review. After much anti-TPP activist noise, Republicans happily granted the man they call "dictator" the power to directly negotiate & sign trade deals into law.

If you havent heard much of any of this, its because of the proliferation of fake-news empire-mouthpiece outlets like CNN/NBC/ABC/CBS/FOX, who dont report what the 1% dont want us plebes to notice.

Your arguments parrot the words of Stephen Harper's conservatives here in Canada. just prior to them bailing out on Canada's climate commitments. their silencing of climate scientists, and their full support of various tar sands projects.


Much of Conservatives' criticism of Liberals is a twist of truth. It really is brilliant how the 1% splinters the public, you gotta hand it to them. They essentially leave you to defend a position that is indefensible, and let tribalism do its work. The Dems' greenwashing is practically whip-cream at that point.

Come on, dont you think its ridiculous that you have to defend the lame commitments Canada made? In order to correct future actions, there must be a reflection and analysis of that failure, or else we are doomed to repeat them (as we indeed have so far).

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #142 on: January 07, 2017, 07:36:32 AM »
Tea Potty:

I was looking forward to reading your response to Terry's post. Although we have been antagonists, I've been trying to understand your point of view. What bothered me was how belligerent your arguments were. I believe the message you were trying to convey was important, but I found your belligerent tone offensive. Unfortunately, I chose to respond with an equally belligerent tone, which I now acknowledge was a mistake.

I just wanted you to know that I thought your post was well thought out and did a far better job of making your point. I've been defending my support for Obama these past eight years with family, friends and also in bar conversations with strangers. Some arguments were rather heated and a couple exchanges nearly came to blows. After eight years of defending him from conservatives and those on the lunatic fringe on the Right, I never expected to have to defend him from the opposite flank.

I found it particularly offensive when his citizenship and his legitimacy was questioned. I give him credit for handling all that with a particular grace that few others would have shown. I do get it, most people over fifty think Obama was too liberal, while the younger generation (the Millennials and others) find that he isn't liberal enough. The moneyed interests have co-opted both the Republicans and the Democrats. On a fundamental level, the system has to be shaken up.

As a Millennial, you feel a deeper sense of urgency, and that is understandable and necessary. That may also be humanity's saving grace. Even if it is too late to avoid some level of catastrophe, perhaps the intensity of that catastrophe will be lessened. I certainly hope that is the case.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 08:13:02 AM by budmantis »
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

DrTskoul

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #143 on: January 07, 2017, 02:38:37 PM »
Convincing people to act on a future threat with implications that they cannot quantify or even comprehend is a a wicked hard problem. The same is true for general population and local / free all government bodies equally.  Risks and probabilities of rare or future events are out of grasp for the majority. The inertia for action is immense. The few of us that grasp the implications are understandably very frustrated.

If history is a guide, it takes for a large catastrophe in one's "house" to drastically change the direction ( a Pearl Harbor of sorts ).

We cannot let the frustration blind us. We have to push our governments to take action and regulate ( private companies won't act without that ) but that will take slow persistent pressure from us . Banging our hand on the table, smashing a few doors, etc. might get attention but it cannot be the tool of action. 
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #144 on: January 07, 2017, 04:10:43 PM »
Dr. T:

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I especially liked the statement "The inertia for action is immense".
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Nietzsche

Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2017, 03:17:13 PM »
Meet the Obscure Group Influencing Trump's Energy Policy

American Energy Alliance members are Trump transition advisers
• Industry funded group opposes government aid to renewables
An obscure Washington policy group that opposes almost any government aid for renewable energy has emerged as an influential force in shaping Donald Trump’s plans to dismantle Obama administration climate initiatives.
...
"There’s not a material energy or environmental policy on which they are not involved -- and most of them, they own," said Michael McKenna, a lobbyist who advises the alliance.
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-05/tiny-group-of-tesla-skeptics-emerges-as-trump-energy-powerhouse
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2017, 08:18:09 PM »
If a sizeable portion of the United States seems to be freaking out today, it is for good reason. See for example #2.

https://twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/819227417227264002
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

logicmanPatrick

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #147 on: January 12, 2017, 12:34:51 AM »
Sigmetnow - that's truly horrifying.

Trump could slash civil service pay to $1. Will he use the 'Armageddon rule'?

For those who opt to stay, the pressure to self-censor in certain departments will be tremendous. Whether government employees admit this to themselves or not, the law of self-preservation dictates anyone working on potentially partisan issues, like women’s health or climate, will have a tremendous incentive to make their work politically palatable – or simply disappear.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/10/trump-could-slash-civil-service-pay-to-1-armageddon-rule


Those who do not learn the lessons of history ...

If Trump keeps this up, scientists will leave America in droves.  The science which could have kept America great will benefit other countries.  Hitler made the same mistake.

When Hitler was made Chancellor of Germany in January 1933, his Nazi regime immediately began mass dismissals of Jewish scientists, judges and other scholars and resulted in the loss to Germany of much of its best scientific talent.
http://www.owalter.co.uk/acjr/hitlgift.htm

si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

Csnavywx

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #148 on: January 12, 2017, 11:05:37 AM »
If a sizeable portion of the United States seems to be freaking out today, it is for good reason. See for example #2.

https://twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/819227417227264002

I would object to #5 as "redscaring" and demonstrably hurtful to the cause.

Glenn Greenwald (of Snowden fame) published a scathing and very true article about the circus around the Intel community and Trump:

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/11/the-deep-state-goes-to-war-with-president-elect-using-unverified-claims-as-dems-cheer/

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #149 on: January 14, 2017, 12:07:03 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Trump meets with Princeton physicist who says global warming is good for us".  Such meetings suggest that Trump may well seek science advise from climate change denialists.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/01/13/trump-meets-with-princeton-physicist-who-says-global-warming-is-good-for-us/?utm_term=.eba0bf1aa2ad

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