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Author Topic: Trump to eliminate climate change research.  (Read 20728 times)

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2016, 08:00:11 AM »
Nice post Magnamentis. Neven has founded and hosts the Forum and leads by example. I believe Tea Potty's response to Neven has been at the very least disrespectful.

I didn't perceive it as such, and even if I did, I don't mind most of the time.

I admire your patience Neven. I'm 67 and have a lot more patience than I ever had, but you've got me beat by a mile!

TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2016, 08:47:34 AM »
Nice post Magnamentis. Neven has founded and hosts the Forum and leads by example. I believe Tea Potty's response to Neven has been at the very least disrespectful.

I didn't perceive it as such, and even if I did, I don't mind most of the time.

Yeah, I have absolutely no reason to be upset at Neven, he isn't to blame for any of this ;)

Also, the anger I am posting about is directed primarily at ppl with positions of importance and the climate movement in general, not ppl on this forum. Its not like I am advocating that everyone on Neven's forum getting angry is our means to salvation. But we do have a problem, of a climate movement that has been too afraid to rock the boat when progress is still non-existent, we have proof that establishment politicians are using us for votes, and we have the moral highground.

For example, many see Trump's election as the final nail in our climate coffin, or at last extremely bad. Now, how many ppl who vote do you think knew anything about our existential crisis? Where were the politicians (besides Bernie Sanders) telling ppl that this election is our last hope for a chance at dignity? Why didn't thousands of our big scientists come together and publicly announce the urgent need for action? Where was even all the climate media on this among all their stories about Trump's denialism?

99% of ppl i talk to have no idea we are quite likely headed for 4C of climate change - they still remember the old 2C goal from the 90s. They have no idea the scope now involves collapse of civilization, the death of billions, etc.

Neven

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2016, 09:14:18 AM »
One of the reasons I'm taking a break from blogging, is that I want to get angry again, get that fire going, boil the blood a bit. Too tired now. But it all started 10-12 years ago, getting really angry, at the lies of consumer culture that we get conditioned with.

In this sense Trump may be better than Clinton. Under Clinton the anger would have subsided (while the anger on the 'other side' would have grown even more fervent), with people going: I did my job, I've voted, they'll take care of it, back to sleep now.

More and more people now realize that neoliberals and neocons is the exact same thing, and that they have been played for years by a system that favours the super-rich. This should get people angry, and this anger may make things change.

But only if the anger gets channelled the right way.
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TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2016, 09:55:32 AM »
One of the reasons I'm taking a break from blogging, is that I want to get angry again, get that fire going, boil the blood a bit. Too tired now. But it all started 10-12 years ago, getting really angry, at the lies of consumer culture that we get conditioned with.

In this sense Trump may be better than Clinton. Under Clinton the anger would have subsided (while the anger on the 'other side' would have grown even more fervent), with people going: I did my job, I've voted, they'll take care of it, back to sleep now.

More and more people now realize that neoliberals and neocons is the exact same thing, and that they have been played for years by a system that favours the super-rich. This should get people angry, and this anger may make things change.

But only if the anger gets channelled the right way.

We are on the same page my friend  ;)

wili

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2016, 04:23:59 PM »
Aristotle wrote: "Those who are not angry at the things they should be angry at are thought to be fools, and so are those who are not angry in the right way"
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

ritter

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2016, 05:49:54 PM »
In this sense Trump may be better than Clinton. Under Clinton the anger would have subsided (while the anger on the 'other side' would have grown even more fervent), with people going: I did my job, I've voted, they'll take care of it, back to sleep now.
This, I hope, is the silver lining. So many groups (women, minorities, LGBT) are so (rightfully) upset about this election of ignorance and hate. I'm angling to align our local climate message into the reinvigorated human rights movements. The message: we (collectively) are nothing without a livable climate. We must push climate as a fundamental right or none of the rest of the progress we've made on other fronts will matter at all.

Here's to focused anger.  ;)

be cause

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2016, 06:04:02 PM »
thankfully I have lost anger as a base for anything . Love is of much greater value . Love all ,no matter how mistaken others seem or how foolish you may look . Anger causes others to respond with anger .. no gain or cure to be found .
be the cause of only good
and love all beings as you should
and the 'God' of all Creation
will .. through you .. transform all nations :)

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2016, 06:41:33 PM »
thankfully I have lost anger as a base for anything . Love is of much greater value . Love all ,no matter how mistaken others seem or how foolish you may look . Anger causes others to respond with anger .. no gain or cure to be found .

Sounds good in theory, but it's also going to take a good dose of anger channeled in the right direction, as Neven stated above. 1 Cor. chapter 13 talks about Faith, Hope and Love. The greatest of these is love, however even Jesus got angry once or twice as I recall.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2016, 06:45:54 PM »
The linked Op-Ed piece is entitled: "Take the Long View on Environmental Issues in the Age of Trump".  While the piece seems Pollyannaish to me (& illustrates many scientist's limited understanding of politics and of the likely rate at which we are approaching multiple tipping points), I think that the author provide some useful information:

Rood, R. B. (2016), Take the long view on environmental issues in the age of Trump, Eos, 97, doi:10.1029/2016EO063609

https://eos.org/opinions/take-the-long-view-on-environmental-issues-in-the-age-of-trump?utm_source=eos&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EosBuzz120216

Extract: "Although climate and environmental regulations are at risk in the short term, Trump's disruption of traditional party positions could help to break decades of stalled efforts to address climate change.

Trump’s administration can disperse President Obama’s climate change policies. However, climate change is too compelling an issue to go away. In the event that an opportunity to address climate change does not emerge during Trump’s administration, I don’t see this lack as placing us at any more of a tipping point than where we already are."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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be cause

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2016, 09:41:26 PM »

 even Jesus got angry once or twice as I recall.
Hi budmantis .. Jesus has had to be reported as fallable to justify righteous indignation .. and that justifies hell on earth . The Love He proposed .. and shared .. if shared by us (without judgement) leads to the experience of Heaven on Earth ; a much improved end result .
 be cause  :)
be the cause of only good
and love all beings as you should
and the 'God' of all Creation
will .. through you .. transform all nations :)

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2016, 06:22:43 AM »

 even Jesus got angry once or twice as I recall.
Hi budmantis .. Jesus has had to be reported as fallable to justify righteous indignation .. and that justifies hell on earth . The Love He proposed .. and shared .. if shared by us (without judgement) leads to the experience of Heaven on Earth ; a much improved end result .
 be cause  :)

I get what you're saying Be Cause, but I remain skeptical. No doubt about the power of love, but anger does have it's uses, provided we don't allow it to consume us. Can love truly provide us with the motivation to take action? I'm not sure. The concept of love and humility is a way of life, imho. I see anger as a motivational tool and should be kept on a short leash.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2016, 05:42:23 PM »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Gray-Wolf

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2016, 12:28:16 PM »
KOYAANISQATSI

ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
 
VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS

budmantis

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2016, 12:26:02 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/12/05/ivanka-trump-to-meet-with-al-gore-to-discuss-climate-issues/?utm_term=.c0d414f68958

So what do folk make of this? Trump nattering to Gore??? Who'd have thunk it eh?

I'm as surprised as you are Gray Wolf. I doubt anything substantive will come of it, but it would be great if it did!

AbruptSLR

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2016, 12:55:27 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "NASA Announces First Geostationary Vegetation, Atmospheric Carbon Mission".  Hopefully, Trump will not cancel this program:


https://www.yahoo.com/news/nasa-announces-first-geostationary-vegetation-atmospheric-carbon-mission-211800964.html

Extract: "NASA has selected a first-of-its-kind Earth science mission that will extend our nation's lead in measuring key greenhouse gases and vegetation health from space to advance our understanding of Earth's natural exchanges of carbon between the land, atmosphere and ocean.

The primary goals of the Geostationary Carbon Cycle Observatory (GeoCARB), led by Berrien Moore of the University of Oklahoma in Norman, are to monitor plant health and vegetation stress throughout the Americas, and to probe, in unprecedented detail, the natural sources, sinks and exchange processes that control carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and methane in the atmosphere.

Total NASA funding for the mission over the next five years will be $166 million, which includes initial development, launch of the mission as a hosted payload on a commercial communications satellite, and data analysis."

See also:


http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/6/13859430/nasa-earth-science-mission-geocarb-carbon-gas-plant-health
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 08:49:15 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2016, 02:51:59 PM »
U.S. scientists are urgently saving climate and weather data before new administration can order it be destroyed.  Trump administration has begun trying to identify Energy Department climate researchers.

Eric Holthaus:  About this project:
I'm working with folks that have means to create a live archive of as many US gov't climate assets as psbl before Jan 20
"Anyone who relies on publicly available...information should...download what they need before the new administration steps in."
https://twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/807727689733787648


Donald Trump's anti-climate science shakedown just started
The Trump transition team sent an unusually detailed questionnaire to the Energy Department, seeking, among other information, lists of people involved in climate change programs at one of the premier science agencies in the world.

The questionnaire, which was first reported by Bloomberg News and obtained independently by Mashable, asks for "a list of Department employees or contractors" who attended the U.N. climate talks in the past five years.

This raises fears that such employees could be retaliated against in some way, perhaps by being reassigned, despite worker protections they have as civil servants.

Along similar lines, the document seeks "a list of all Department of Energy employees or contractors who have attended any Interagency Working Group on the Social Cost of Carbon meetings."

The transition team — led by Thomas Pyle, the president of the free-market advocacy group American Energy Alliance that is heavily funded by the fossil fuel industry — is also seeking all materials produced in anticipation of, during and as a result of those meetings. ...
http://mashable.com/2016/12/09/trump-energy-department-climate-lists
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2016, 09:34:57 PM »
Yes, this is really happening:

Scientists are frantically copying U.S. climate data, fearing it might vanish under Trump
Alarmed that decades of crucial climate measurements could vanish under a hostile Trump administration, scientists have begun a feverish attempt to copy reams of government data onto independent servers in hopes of safeguarding it from any political interference.

The efforts include a “guerrilla archiving” event in Toronto, where experts will copy irreplaceable public data, meetings at the University of Pennsylvania focused on how to download as much federal data as possible in the coming weeks, and a collaboration of scientists and database experts who are compiling an online site to harbor scientific information.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/12/13/scientists-are-frantically-copying-u-s-climate-data-fearing-it-might-vanish-under-trump/


Edit:
Eric Holthaus:  Why I’m trying to preserve federal climate data before Trump takes office
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/13/why-im-trying-to-preserve-federal-climate-data-before-trump-takes-office/
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 09:44:17 PM by Sigmetnow »
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ritter

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2016, 10:26:53 PM »
Yes, this is really happening:

Scientists are frantically copying U.S. climate data, fearing it might vanish under Trump


Scary times for those paying attention.

Pmt111500

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2016, 04:42:52 AM »
Yes, this is really happening:

Scientists are frantically copying U.S. climate data, fearing it might vanish under Trump


Scary times for those paying attention.

Some people are just so afraid of the truth. And by some people in the last sentence I mean the planned future government of USofA.
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pileus

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2016, 06:19:05 AM »
The Dept of Energy and climate scientists are creating a template for how to deal with Trump.  This is transferable beyond the climate space, to anything that falls into the crosshairs.

1. Be proactive.   Take measures to protect assets, whether tangible, physical, or virtual.  Archive information, encrypt data, create redundancy, hide stuff if prudent.  Waiting until after Jan 20 to "see what happens" invites exposure and loss.

2. Don't believe anything from Trump.  A single word, a Tweet.  Or from his surrogates, and in some  cases top GOP leadership.  Many of them have declared that facts or truth do not matter, so therefore we should not accept anything from Trump and team as accurate or factual.

3. Refuse to give in.  To the abuse, the bullying, the intimidation.  That's their MO and what they depend on to control people.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2016, 02:15:01 PM »
Yes, this is really happening:

Scientists are frantically copying U.S. climate data, fearing it might vanish under Trump



Scary times for those paying attention.


Some people are just so afraid of the truth. And by some people in the last sentence I mean the planned future government of USofA.


Any administration with even the tiniest amount of morality would be all over this, claiming they would never restrict science in such a way.  That Trump has not, speaks volumes.  (Of course, we would not believe anything he says now, even if he did swear all research was safe.)


Edit: Here's an update.
http://www.ppehlab.org/blogposts/2016/12/13/update-on-datarefuge
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 02:30:02 PM by Sigmetnow »
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TerryM

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2016, 04:27:57 PM »
The Dept of Energy and climate scientists are creating a template for how to deal with Trump.  This is transferable beyond the climate space, to anything that falls into the crosshairs.

1. Be proactive.   Take measures to protect assets, whether tangible, physical, or virtual.  Archive information, encrypt data, create redundancy, hide stuff if prudent.  Waiting until after Jan 20 to "see what happens" invites exposure and loss.

2. Don't believe anything from Trump.  A single word, a Tweet.  Or from his surrogates, and in some  cases top GOP leadership.  Many of them have declared that facts or truth do not matter, so therefore we should not accept anything from Trump and team as accurate or factual.

3. Refuse to give in.  To the abuse, the bullying, the intimidation.  That's their MO and what they depend on to control people.


All good points.
If I might add to the list:


4. Learn from the Canadian experience.


 4.A  Governments can and have simply required all employees to stand mute re. climate change.


 4.B  Governments can and have claimed shared intellectual rights to foreign scientist's work when government facilities were used in their research. Once intellectual rights are claimed it's a short step to demanding silence.


Terry

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2016, 06:01:17 PM »
Trump's selection of Rick Perry to head the DOE, a Russian perspective.


https://www.rt.com/usa/370272-rick-perry-trump-energy/


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2016, 06:28:13 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Fearful of Trump, Hundreds in San Francisco Rally for Science". A number of prominent scientists spoke at this rally including: Naomi Oreskes, Michael Mann and Peter Frumhoff.  I applaud their backbone.

Showstack, R. (2016), Fearful of Trump, hundreds in San Francisco rally for science, Eos, 97, doi:10.1029/2016EO064933. Published on 14 December 2016.

https://eos.org/articles/fearful-of-trump-hundreds-in-san-francisco-rally-for-science

Extract: "Hundreds of people, many of them scientists, rallied in support of science yesterday in San Francisco just a few blocks from where the largest annual gathering of Earth and space scientists in the world was taking place.

Rally organizers staged the event in the face of what they said are unprecedented threats to the sciences, particularly climate science. The demonstrators protested some of the likely appointees and potential policies of the incoming administration of U.S. president-elect Donald Trump.
“This is a frightening moment. We have seen in the last few weeks how the reins of the federal government are being handed over to the fossil fuel industry,” rally speaker Naomi Oreskes told the crowd that gathered for the lunchtime rally on a cloudy day. Oreskes is a professor of the history of science and an affiliated professor of Earth and planetary sciences at Harvard University."
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2016, 09:06:10 PM »
Zeke Hausfather tweeted: 
Listening to California governor Jerry Brown at #AGU16 today. Definitely a crowd favorite.

   Jerry Brown: "If Trump turns off the earth monitoring satellites California will launch its own damn satellites."
https://twitter.com/hausfath/status/809091821343080448
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2016, 12:57:36 AM »
Re: the second link in Reply #65 above.  That's the spirit, DOE!

U.S. Energy Department balks at Trump request for names on climate change
"We will not be providing any individual names to the transition team."
The U.S. Energy Department said on Tuesday it will not comply with a request from President-elect Donald Trump's Energy Department transition team for the names of people who have worked on climate change and the professional society memberships of lab workers.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-climate-idUSKBN1421V0
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Csnavywx

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2016, 01:06:03 AM »
Re: the second link in Reply #65 above.  That's the spirit, DOE!

U.S. Energy Department balks at Trump request for names on climate change
"We will not be providing any individual names to the transition team."
The U.S. Energy Department said on Tuesday it will not comply with a request from President-elect Donald Trump's Energy Department transition team for the names of people who have worked on climate change and the professional society memberships of lab workers.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-climate-idUSKBN1421V0


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Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2016, 04:21:56 AM »
New wrinkle.  Transition team says: Never Mind!

Trump team disavows survey seeking names of climate workers
President-elect Donald Trump's transition team on Wednesday disavowed a survey sent to the U.S. Department of Energy that requested the names of people working on climate change in the agency.

"The questionnaire was not authorized or part of our standard protocol," Trump spokesman Sean Spicer said. "The person who sent it has been properly counseled."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-climatechange-idUSKBN1432JJ
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TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2016, 09:23:19 AM »
Would it have really hurt any of these government scientists to have mentioned in the primary which climate plan was better? Don't you think maybe these seat-warming establishmentarians should have felt compelled to shake off their smug elitism and warn us plebes of how urgently we need to CUT CARBON this election so we can hopefully avert the death of billions?

I say good riddance, cant wait till they are all fired. None of them deserve the public's money for keeping as quiet as possible about climate change and the need to cut carbon emissions.

This way, when we get our Progressive into power, they can appoint some real scientists who aren't into the cult faith of objectivity.

Do you guys think Gavin is now yelling "we're fucked! we're fucked!" over the loss of his job, or is he keeping true to the principles he enforces on climate activists?

nicibiene

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2016, 11:12:15 AM »
It is really confusing what the hell is going on there. Three weeks ago I kept myself pretty safe. I tried to manage my personal life as sustainable as possible. It was a coincidence that I got  curious about the actual facts.

I really feel disinformed, pranked - disappointed (better-furious) about all - science, journalists, teachers, governments. I actually read a book about oceans physics and chemistry and it is really no miracle to find the tipping points that matter. The tipping points are not new-they are wellknown, since decades! And it is scientists job to find the interesting points, to collect datas, to prove or disprove presumptions, discuss the results and to INFORM.

They are paid by public money-to serve the public. (Some write great books-I started my way after reading Flannery)

It is their job to explain science comprehensible-to bring it back to normal life-to make people able to do their own -right- decisions.  Also teachers have to stay in contact with science, to tell kids about the challenges of the future, to give them the knowledge to judge and to understand principles. But they also usally don't.

People have to feel free to do do their walk of life-they are not willing to feel reigned by laws, regulations and infantilizing. That makes them angry...

There are tons of datas, nice maps-they are free available-yes-but is the job scientists job done with making them available, discussing results within the scientists ivory tower!?!? Politicians are normally not scientists-but here in Germany we have one that should understand it all-Merkel is a doctor of Physics. Unfortunately she has no children...otherwise she couldn't stay that patient...

I´ve found a new document of scientists, asking some ethical question I´m struggling with-you find it in the attachement-unfortunately there no link.

Has anyone asked if Trump only >pretends< not to know about the facts? US people feel the drought, the hurricanes, the extremely cold-in contrast to most (media sedated) people here in Central Europe.

How to tell better about a lie than emphasizing its discrepancy with the truth people feel in their daily lifes? I think that is the cracking point of the postfactual times we live in. People feel the truth, the lies, they feel patronized. Tragically they seem to set their only hope into people they hope could help - those who have the power -- of money.

And we could only pray that these horrible rich people not only plan to build an Arche Noah for their own families-leaving the rest of us behind.... I personally do not think they are spurred by idealism.  :'(
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 12:09:16 PM by nicibiene »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2016, 03:12:30 PM »
Gov. Brown, at AGU2016, to DOE-chief designate Rick Perry:  California has more sun than Texas has oil.

“Don’t lose faith or get isolated. If anyone in Washington starts picking on researchers you can be sure you have a friend in California.”

California Governor Says His State Will Be a Sanctuary for Science Under Trump
“California has over $2.2 trillion in gross national product, we are the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world, we have a lot of firepower, we have the scientists we have the universities, we have the national labs, no doubt we will fight and we will persevere!”

“We (California) have the goal of reaching 50% renewable energy and we are at 28% right now. We’ll set the stage, we'll set the example, and whatever Washington thinks, we will change the future.”
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/california-governor-jerry-brown-agu
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2016, 03:39:00 PM »
here in Germany we have one that should understand it all-Merkel is a doctor of Physics. Unfortunately she has no children...otherwise she couldn't stay that patient...

...

 US people feel the drought, the hurricanes, the extremely cold-in contrast to most (media sedated) people here in Central Europe.

Problem is, Merkel has to share power with Sigmar Gabriel. He is in the pockets of the fossil fuel energy companies. Jim Hansen had already complained about his lack of understanding when we were at 385ppm http://www.cleanenergy-project.de/lifestyle/5089-trip-report-from-dr-james-hansen

Here in Germany we had some rather eye-opening floods in the last years, from Dresden 2002 to Simbach/Inn 2016.

Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2016, 04:19:12 PM »

Here in Germany we had some rather eye-opening floods in the last years, from Dresden 2002 to Simbach/Inn 2016.

)

I know about the floods, Martin. I live here in Saxony-next to a brandnew flood warning station down in our valley, we already had that flood.

We have coal and a government that denies the climate change, that calls the descision to finish with coal a "distaster". And I ask myself, if they are all blind?!

http://www.lvz.de/Mitteldeutschland/News/Braunkohle-statt-Klimaschutz-Tillich-wettert-gegen-Regierungsplaene

We have a newspaper - obviously powered by energy concern ENVIA - a crashed windmill got a BIG photo that week - the ice at the north pole a small article at a nonpopular site. (and they wrote WEATHER - not climate)

We have "nice" Pegida with a dening leadership. I also ask myself if Ms. Petry as a chemist doesn´t know more?-she always argues the ocean will thake the CO2 and gives the example of a warm soda bottle-not false, but it has to be thought further. Couldn´t she? Or is she hiding as Trump could hide his knowledge?

The entire "Klimawende" is a struggle of lobbyists. There is nothing really done-all is so completely slowed down. Whereever you watch there are groups of interests-financial interests.

I´m afraid we will get the bill next year. I think Angela Merkel has squandered a lot of trust. In combination with some fakenews manipulations - or maybe the entire truth it will become a disaster too.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 04:27:27 PM by nicibiene »
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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2016, 04:56:42 PM »
Germany isn't totally off topic here... While our population is way better educated than mortal Americans, we share a major thing: The corrupting influence of the fossil fuel industry.

The victor in the U.S. election isn't Trump (plus Putin), but the global oilygarchy. Their money determines their facts. Screw science. Screw human rights. Screw the planet.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/tillerson-history-at-exxon-one-of-defying-opposing-us-interests-832531011949
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TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2016, 06:18:14 PM »
Has anyone asked if Trump only >pretends< not to know about the facts? US people feel the drought, the hurricanes, the extremely cold-in contrast to most (media sedated) people here in Central Europe.

How to tell better about a lie than emphasizing its discrepancy with the truth people feel in their daily lifes? I think that is the cracking point of the postfactual times we live in. People feel the truth, the lies, they feel patronized. Tragically they seem to set their only hope into people they hope could help - those who have the power -- of money.

And we could only pray that these horrible rich people not only plan to build an Arche Noah for their own families-leaving the rest of us behind.... I personally do not think they are spurred by idealism.  :'(

Of course our politicians are all lying, they all know how deeply we're fucked. Theyre not stupid, they just pretend. It's obvious by the non-stop goalpost moving.

The 1% don't care about us, at all. They never have throughout history, and they have enslaved us in this rigged economic system we live in today. That's a fact, for those who don't follow politics.

They have no interest in fighting climate change, so they play a game with us. On one hand they pay conservatives and right-wing orgs for the climate denial campaign. On the other hand they pay Liberals and greenwashing orgs to soak up all the climate movement energy and promote apathy.

That's why supporting Liberals is tantamount to climate denial now. It's obvious they are in on the game to deny significant climate action. Remember how Hillary told her 1% pals climate activists should "get a life"?

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2016, 07:02:11 PM »

That's why supporting Liberals is tantamount to climate denial now. It's obvious they are in on the game to deny significant climate action.


Sorry, I fail to see how your argument supports this conclusion.


The Liberals are not just our best bet to combat denial, they are the only (electable) game in town.


Working now to assure a Democratic landslide in 2 years is the best we can do with the cards we have left to play. Anything that fragments this endeavour will assure another 2 years of Trumpian/Republican domination of all branches of government.


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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2016, 08:53:19 PM »
For that you first need a landslide within the Democratic Party itself to get rid of the neoliberals and take over where Trump will stop. But it seems everyone is too busy bashing Sanders and whining about the 'Russian hack'. Which plays right into the hands of the 1%.
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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2016, 09:02:16 PM »

The victor in the U.S. election isn't Trump (plus Putin), but the global oilygarchy. Their money determines their facts. Screw science. Screw human rights. Screw the planet.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/tillerson-history-at-exxon-one-of-defying-opposing-us-interests-832531011949


There is only a nice little horror cabinet left in my head. I also think it is only a game of the oligarchs. Only power, sway, prevelance matters-not money. Who of them would really care about the fucking money?! They have all instruments in their hands to rule the world, all things for a perfect dictature. Energy, technics, land, weapons-they even wouldn´t need soldiers. They also could manipulate the market of money, the stock exchanges. (Just look at the strange behaviour of the courses-they are rise upwards and the two incidents with Trumps tweeds.)

Who of them would care about the wellfare of mankind?! And how they should be stopped? They would only laugh about the stupid idea of democracy. Democracy obviously doesnt´work, it leads to a corrupt system, wherever you look - science as a neutral servant of the truth failed too.

I´m afraid they will try to wipe away all scientists. They could only ask them what all their knowledge was worth all the years long-had it any effect to prevent/stop the climate change?...and I´m sure it would be terrible easy to generate public anger against them.
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TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2016, 03:44:17 AM »
For that you first need a landslide within the Democratic Party itself to get rid of the neoliberals and take over where Trump will stop. But it seems everyone is too busy bashing Sanders and whining about the 'Russian hack'. Which plays right into the hands of the 1%.


Thats the establishment/MSM narrative, which mattered jack squat this entire election, and matters even less now after their "fake news" propaganda campaign. Who cares what those talking heads say to the few Boomers who watch them?

Recent polling showed Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in America, by the numbers and not 1% narrative. Independents are the largest voting block, while identified Repubs and Dems are ~25% each and lower.

The Russia nonsense is absolutely "fake news", just like the Iraq War. Not a shred of evidence, and its funny to suggest that Russia rigged our election by uncovering how Hillary rigged the primary and how corrupt she is. Well boo hoo, don't do the crime if you dont want to take responsibility.



That's why supporting Liberals is tantamount to climate denial now. It's obvious they are in on the game to deny significant climate action.



Sorry, I fail to see how your argument supports this conclusion.


Show me an example of Liberals who want to actually cut carbon directly, or any example of a Liberal who have taken significant climate action in power. Today, Liberals=Neoliberals, and their agenda is against working people and against fighting climate change. Did you know Nixon was more progressive on economics than Obama?

While Liberals' agenda does differ slightly from Conservatives, we have all the proof of circumstance and leaks from Snowden and Wikileaks that they ultimately serve the same masters. They are not Leftists, they don't value science and truth the same way, and they are mostly into feeling good about themselves rather than actually helping ppl.

Obama oversaw no significant climate action, CO2 levels accelerating at record rates, made USA the #1 world oil producer, approved almost as many pipelines as Bush, and pushed fracking around the world with $Hillary as Fossil Fuel Lobbyist under the guise of SOS (not to mention largest weapons sales in history). Ultimately, Obama/Hillary fought hardest these last 8 years for TPP (which prevents climate action and exacerbates poverty) and making sure the Paris agreement was non-binding and no poor country could sue for climate damages. That alone speaks volumes and a president who did everything else laid back.

Professor James Hansen said about Paris/Obama that its "BULLSHIT", and "selling our kids down the river".

Thus, based on our current history, leaked facts, and basic analysis of politics, one understands that Liberals are the biggest enemy of progress at the moment. Leftist policies have polled for years to be preferred by the American public when no labels are presented. Bernie Sanders sparked this revolution, which became (and still is) the largest movement with most donations in history.

Democrats rigged the primary and smeared the Economic Justice ideas espoused by progressives in this movement, and called our vision for climate action "fringe". Hillary told her 1% friends behind closed doors that climate activists who want to cut carbon should "get a life".

If you're still confused, I'll make it clearer. 99% of humans agree, a traitor or double agent is worse than an enemy. Liberals have made it their job for decades to suppress Leftist ideas. After this disgusting primary, we on the Left have divorced the Dem party, and made sure Hillary lost. 11% less independents and 11% less Millennials voted for Democrats compared to 2008, half of which voted for Trump.

Better 4 years with a chance to take over the corrupt Dem party and easily get a Leftist in power, than 8 more years of non-action and the truth being further marginalized, the public more apathetic, and the party further nested in its current power structure (or worse).

The Liberals are not just our best bet to combat denial, they are the only (electable) game in town.


No, Liberals are deniers. Try talking to ur average blind Dem voter about the urgency of climate change. They are very poorly informed, and think our urgency is nonsense. Most of them think everything Obama did is practically holy, and you'll be called racist if you question him.

Working now to assure a Democratic landslide in 2 years is the best we can do with the cards we have left to play. Anything that fragments this endeavour will assure another 2 years of Trumpian/Republican domination of all branches of government.


This is what establishment Democrats want you to believe. Polls clearly showed, 1 year in advance of the election during the primary, that it was most likely Hillary would lose to Trump and Bernie would win against Trump in a landslide. Bernie had far far stronger support of independents than Trump, and it was clear to most that Trump copied a lot of rhetoric from Bernie. The Democrat party got what they rigged, with the candidate least favored and trusted in history (except for Trump, lol).

Fact is, the Democrat establishment would have rather lost with Hillary than won with Bernie, bc he represented a threat to the Neoliberals' iron grip of the party, and a threat to the bosses. Just like now, the bosses want Trump out bc of his threats to end the Free Trade scam, and both parties are working on flipping electors and circumventing democracy. Anyone who cheers this on is intellectually bankrupt and a puppet of the empire.



Loretta Lynch: We Didn't See Any Technical Interference In The Election From The Russians

John Kerry Doesn't Buy The Anonymous Reports On The Russian Hacks

After 30 Years of Throwing Working People Under the Bus, Democratic Party’s “Centrist” Leaders Remain Clueless About Voter Revenge

« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 08:37:56 AM by TeaPotty »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2016, 08:47:37 PM »
Trump's administration is all about the "Carbon Bubble."

Trump, Putin and the Pipelines to Nowhere
You can’t understand what Trump’s doing to America without understanding the “Carbon Bubble”
The Carbon Lobby and the Trump Gang

...For high-carbon industries to continue to be attractive investments, then, they must spin a tale of future growth. They must make potential investors believe that even if there is a Carbon Bubble, it is decades away from popping — that their high profits today will continue for the foreseeable future, so their stock is worth buying.

How would you maintain this confidence?

•You’d dispute climate science — making scientists’ predictions seem less certain in the public mind— and work to gut the capacity of scientists to continue their work (by, for instance, defunding NASA’s Earth Sciences program).

•You’d attack global climate agreements, making them look unstable and weak, and thus unlikely to impact your businesses.

•You’d attack low-carbon competitors politically, attempting to portray the evidence that they can replace high-carbon industries as fraudulent (or at least overly idealistic).

•You’d use every leverage point to slow low-carbon industrial progress — for example, by continuing massive subsidies to oil and gas companies, while attacking programs to develop new energy sources.

•You’d support putting a price on carbon, since this makes you look moderate and engaged, but you’d make sure that the definition of a “reasonable” price on carbon was so low and took so long to implement that it was no real threat to your business, and at worst would replace the dirtiest fossil fuels with others (switching for example from coal to gas).

•You would ally with extremists and other sources of anti-democratic power, in order to be able to fight democratic efforts to cut emissions through the application of threats, instability and violence.

•Most of all, you’d invest as heavily as possible in new infrastructure and supply. For oil and gas companies, this means new exploration and new pipelines. Why would you do this, if you know you may have to abandon these assets before they’ve paid off? Two reasons: First, it sends a signal of confidence to markets that you expect to continue to grow in the future. Second, it’s politically harder to force companies to abandon expensive investments than it is to prevent those systems from being built in the first place — the mere existence of a pipeline becomes an argument for continuing to use it. This, too, bolsters investor confidence. (Note that whether these assets are eventually abandoned or not is of little concern to current investors looking to delay devaluations).

Here’s the kicker: If you were going to put in place a presidential administration that was dedicated to taking these actions, it would look exactly like what we have now: a cabinet and chief advisors in which nearly every member is a climate denialist with ties to the Carbon Lobby....
https://medium.com/@AlexSteffen/trump-putin-and-the-pipelines-to-nowhere-742d745ce8fd
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #90 on: December 16, 2016, 08:49:10 PM »
How Trump’s White House Could Mess With Government Data
Outright manipulation may be unlikely, but there are subtler things the administration could do.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-trumps-white-house-could-mess-with-government-data/
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TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2016, 03:32:42 AM »
Trump's administration is all about the "Carbon Bubble."

Trump, Putin and the Pipelines to Nowhere
You can’t understand what Trump’s doing to America without understanding the “Carbon Bubble”


Another factless article by a Liberal. Its not wrong, except for claiming this about only 1 party, when it applies very well to both. Trump didn't make America the #1 oil producer, Obama did. Trump didn't spread fracking around the USA and the world, Obama did. Trump didn't make Paris non-binding or prevent poor nations form suing rich ones, Obama did. Trump didn't send his violent henchmen to attack peaceful climate/environmental protesters (yet), Obama did.

Plus, Obama and Hillary both received bribes from the fossil fuel industries, who dont invest in ppl who oppose burning carbon.


The Carbon Lobby and the Trump Gang

...For high-carbon industries to continue to be attractive investments, then, they must spin a tale of future growth. They must make potential investors believe that even if there is a Carbon Bubble, it is decades away from popping — that their high profits today will continue for the foreseeable future, so their stock is worth buying.


Just like the last 8 years.

•You’d dispute climate science — making scientists’ predictions seem less certain in the public mind— and work to gut the capacity of scientists to continue their work (by, for instance, defunding NASA’s Earth Sciences program).


Or you can do like Obama: declare yourself a climate champion, and then do jack squat.

•You’d attack global climate agreements, making them look unstable and weak, and thus unlikely to impact your businesses.


Yup, like Obama, who made sure the agreement is non-binding and prevented poor nations from suing rich ones.

•You’d attack low-carbon competitors politically, attempting to portray the evidence that they can replace high-carbon industries as fraudulent (or at least overly idealistic).

•You’d use every leverage point to slow low-carbon industrial progress — for example, by continuing massive subsidies to oil and gas companies, while attacking programs to develop new energy sources.


Is that better than deluding everyone with propoganda that solar/wind can completely replace carbon in time for our necessary carbon reductions, while only investing a paltry amount in them compared to fossil fuels?

•You’d support putting a price on carbon, since this makes you look moderate and engaged, but you’d make sure that the definition of a “reasonable” price on carbon was so low and took so long to implement that it was no real threat to your business, and at worst would replace the dirtiest fossil fuels with others (switching for example from coal to gas).


The Democrat establishment has literally opposed putting a price on carbon every step of the way, and stifles any discussion of it.

•You would ally with extremists and other sources of anti-democratic power, in order to be able to fight democratic efforts to cut emissions through the application of threats, instability and violence.


Any proof of this? Nope, just more grandstanding Dem talking points. Extremists didn't win the election for Trump, not even close.

•Most of all, you’d invest as heavily as possible in new infrastructure and supply. For oil and gas companies, this means new exploration and new pipelines. Why would you do this, if you know you may have to abandon these assets before they’ve paid off? Two reasons: First, it sends a signal of confidence to markets that you expect to continue to grow in the future. Second, it’s politically harder to force companies to abandon expensive investments than it is to prevent those systems from being built in the first place — the mere existence of a pipeline becomes an argument for continuing to use it. This, too, bolsters investor confidence. (Note that whether these assets are eventually abandoned or not is of little concern to current investors looking to delay devaluations).


So, like Obama.

In Bush’s last year in office (2008) U.S. crude oil production averaged 5.0 million bpd (barrels per day). Under Obama, we've reached 9.4 million bpd in 2015 — a whopping 188% increase! Except it to be even higher in 2016. Also, this is from someone who supposedly understands our carbon-budget well.





Here’s the kicker: If you were going to put in place a presidential administration that was dedicated to taking these actions, it would look exactly like what we have now: a cabinet and chief advisors in which nearly every member is a climate denialist with ties to the Carbon Lobby....


So, this is worse than Obama's administration full of bankers/lobbyists/shills/WallSt ppl who did nothing to push for climate action for nearly 4 years, then did some PR and took credit for saving the world?



I want to emphasize, that my objective to properly direct the newfound outrage many have found. This may actually turn out to be Trump's greatest gift to mankind ;)

Please, stop parroting the Democratic Party. They are not our friends. We must separate our messaging and reach out to non-voters and independents. Even better if we tie ourselves to economic justice.

Explain to those apathetic why they should be angry as well, why society is collapsing. Its only right (and healthy) to be angry at those who are literally killing us.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 04:42:08 AM by TeaPotty »

6roucho

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2016, 08:00:00 AM »
So, this is worse than Obama's administration full of bankers/lobbyists/shills/WallSt ppl who did nothing to push for climate action for nearly 4 years, then did some PR and took credit for saving the world?
I'm no fan of the Democrats, or American politics generally, but *much* worse.

This team could dismantle programs, extract the United States from binding international agreements, sideline climate scientists in public service roles, withdraw funding from vital research programs, and do irreparable harm to science. Those aren't partisan political issues. And no amount of impotent fury in the face of such raw excess is worth a hill of beans, once it's gone.

Here in Australia, a parachuted-in Silicon Valley whiz-kid venture capitalist axed 130 climate research jobs from our peak scientific body, in the name of pursuing more commercial lines of research, and we'll *never* recover from that.

There's a vast gulf between doing too little and deliberately doing harm. Ask any surgeon.

Of course none of this may come to pass. The beast may draw back its mask and reveal a lamb.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 08:05:42 AM by 6roucho »

TeaPotty

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2016, 08:46:54 AM »
I'm no fan of the Democrats, or American politics generally, but *much* worse.

This team could dismantle programs, ...

The ones which are weak and ineffective at fighting climate change and not having any noticeable effect on our accelerating carbon levels?

...extract the United States from binding international agreements, ...

What agreement are u referring to? Paris isn't binding, and Free Trade agreements should be ended.

...sideline climate scientists in public service roles, ...

Who failed to inform the public, and obstruct others from doing so.  >:(

...withdraw funding from vital research programs, ...

Yeah, this part sucks.  :(

and do irreparable harm to science.

How can he significantly further harm a field already corrupted to the core by Capitalism?  ::)

Those aren't partisan political issues. And no amount of impotent fury in the face of such raw excess is worth a hill of beans, once it's gone.
Not sure what your argument is here  ???

There's a vast gulf between doing too little and deliberately doing harm. Ask any surgeon.

I have proven above that Obama has harmed the climate more than Bush, and it was very much deliberate.  :'(

6roucho

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2016, 09:06:08 AM »
I'm no fan of the Democrats, or American politics generally, but *much* worse.

This team could dismantle programs, ...

The ones which are weak and ineffective at fighting climate change and not having any noticeable effect on our accelerating carbon levels?

Science is a collective activity. Programs that *make a difference* at a policy-making level rely on hundreds of programs that do pure science, out of public sight, except in places like this. So yes, the axing of pure research programs that "make no difference" will do irreparable harm.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 09:11:42 AM by 6roucho »

Jim Hunt

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2016, 11:13:38 AM »
Cross posting from the "Freezing Season" thread:



quoted with approval at:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2016/12/december-2016-arctic-report-card/
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

OrganicSu

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #96 on: December 17, 2016, 01:30:20 PM »
I have proven above that Obama has harmed the climate more than Bush, and it was very much deliberate.  :'(
I agree based upon what you have written in several posts.
However I would much prefer the CC research programs and environmental protection rules stay and are reinforced rather than dismantled.

At the end of the day, neither Obama, Bush or any politician ever forced or even asked me to fly, drive, consume. I don't think Trump will force me to do so either. Obama was helping to provide the natural resources required to make my choices possible. Those fossil fuels had to come from somewhere. Planes with no fuel fall out of the sky. Ah, but it could have been clean energy with the policies... I never even asked my various electricity providers if they had a 100% renewable energy option. So, do I give a shit or not?

To all the innocent and those who have watched the artic and other indicators for CC for years and decades and who took responsibility for their emissions, I sincerely apologise for being an emitter.

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2016, 03:08:28 PM »
Tea Potty, once again I agree with most of what you say. However I invite you to examine these points.

1. Up until recently, if you even mentioned that climate change will have consequences in our lifetimes you would have gain the scorn of any serious scientist.  What the scientist told Obama was that temp would rise by 2C in a century, the arctic will last until 2070. So Obama invested in pure research as if we had time. Sure there was risk for us but it would be perfectly manageable for now. Right now that doesn't seem to be the case, but in 2008 that was the best science.
 

2. Around 2008 the world reached peak oil. The economy couldn't grow fast enough because we couldn't extract oil fast enough to meet the demand. Prices spiked and fast global economic growth slowed to a crawl. The US is the world's largest oil consumer by a wide margin, yet the US doesn't produce enough oil to meet their own needs. The US is hopelessly dependent on Putin, Saudi Arabia and Iraq to keep the spigots opened and flowing. It was Obama fiduciary responsibility to resolve that vulnerability. Since climate change was a problem for the future, he decided to go with fracking and oil exploration. That was the only ready solution at the time. Solar panels where too expensive then and batteries to solve intermittency was thought impossible at the time.

Of course that didn't work, even with record exploration and new technologies that allow fracking and oil sands, oil extraction rate can not be increased enough, for long enough, to sustain fast global economic growth. But it diminished the vulnerability of oil dependence of the US.

3.  To make matter worse, traitor congressmen both dems and reps, did not allow him to govern, mostly because he is black with a muslim name and that scared the shit out of xenophobes.  Pretty much all of Obama's accomplishments come from executive action.
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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2016, 04:06:58 PM »
Archimid:

I was about to post comments very similar to your own, but I liked your post better than mine! Well stated.

Tea Potty:

I admire you're passion and I hope you keep contributing. Without compromising your message, I'd suggest toning it down just a little. You're posts have challenged me to look at things from a different perspective. While our views are somewhat different, I do agree with you more often than not.

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Re: Trump to eliminate climate change research.
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2016, 06:35:03 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Researchers Are Preparing for Trump to Delete Government Science From the Web". 

On January 21, 2017 Trump will be empowered to shutdown most US federal government science websites that provide the public (including this forum) with climate change information.


http://motherboard.vice.com/read/researchers-are-preparing-for-trump-to-delete-government-science-from-the-web

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