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dnem

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2017, 06:44:42 PM »
It's the car's fault?  Or as my 13 yr-old would say 'Logic much, brah?'

ah from the mouths of snarky 13 year olds!

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2017, 07:02:42 PM »
It's the car's fault?  Or as my 13 yr-old would say 'Logic much, brah?'

ah from the mouths of snarky 13 year olds!

Yeah,  I would never say something like that, but sometimes I want to.   ;D

6roucho

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2017, 07:04:23 PM »
I have lived and worked in many countries either in or exiting from dictatorships.  I failed to find one either intelligent or benevolent.
Unfortunately for our survival as a species, intelligent benevolent people don't seem to lust after power. There must be an evoluionary reason for that.

magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2017, 07:12:10 PM »
Trying to be brief here...

5to10 - There is no conspiracy here beyond unenlightened self-interest. Which is to say, greed coupled with stupidity coupled with egocentricity and narcissism . The energy oligarchs aren't motivated by the prospect of watching the world burn. They just aren't wired to connect the dots between what they do now and bad things happening in their own future.

If they were born poor they would be the people setting up meth labs in their own apartments, oblivious to the fact that  the inevitable consequences range from bad (they stink up the building and end up in jail), to terminal (they blow-up themselves and everyone around them).

The only way to win with such people is to convince them that they will be getting the better of you if they do what you want them to do. E.g. If you know that they think that the sooner all the ice melts, the more money they can make, and you know (hypothetically) that smashing the ice-cover to fragments in mid-December will actually make it thicker in April, then you push for them to bomb the crap out of the whole arctic in mid-December, on the public justification that it will prevent moslem insurgents from ice-sailing into Alaska under cover of darkness, whilst whispering into their ears that the real purpose is to make it easier to move the drilling rigs in.

hohohh.... great things to read in this thread over and over again, i love it :-) and of course your post :D ;)
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magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2017, 07:13:44 PM »
<wry look>
Can we at least get back to the *pretense* of a discussion about the Arctic?

ok, perhaps we need some guidance here, for my understanding "open thread" meant free and open discussion, ready to stand corrected of course ;)
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5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2017, 07:14:18 PM »
I have lived and worked in many countries either in or exiting from dictatorships.  I failed to find one either intelligent or benevolent.
Unfortunately for our survival as a species, intelligent benevolent people don't seem to lust after power. There must be an evoluionary reason for that.
Yes, intelligent benevolent people probably see that many intelligent benevolent leaders of the past were assassinated. They are ousted quickly in a machine that is mostly evil and built on deception.

Alone, an intelligent benevolent person is weak. Unity is the only way, unity unlike we've never seen. This starts with us as individuals, all of us, and we are slowly getting there despite what the media portrays.

magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2017, 07:16:53 PM »
In the bible, beast are used to represent kingdoms and governments. The number seven always represents completeness or perfection. Therefore six represents something that comes up short or is imperfect. Repeating the six three times for emphasis shows just how imperfect the human political system has been. The book of Daniel which goes into much detail about governments, explains at 2:44 that," In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever."
Part of Armageddon involves God "bringing to ruin those ruining the Earth." Rev. 11:18
After this war of Armageddon, the 1000 years begins, not before.

even though i do not believe in the old man with the beard i love that book and if everyone would read and follow all the wisdom in there (not every word is wisdom but almost all the wisdom is somewhere) we would be far far far better of.

from your except i guess that you did not read that up just to reply ;) interesting in many aspects (positively of coxurse)
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5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2017, 07:24:59 PM »
In the bible, beast are used to represent kingdoms and governments. The number seven always represents completeness or perfection. Therefore six represents something that comes up short or is imperfect. Repeating the six three times for emphasis shows just how imperfect the human political system has been. The book of Daniel which goes into much detail about governments, explains at 2:44 that," In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever."
Part of Armageddon involves God "bringing to ruin those ruining the Earth." Rev. 11:18
After this war of Armageddon, the 1000 years begins, not before.

even though i do not believe in the old man with the beard i love that book and if everyone would read and follow all the wisdom in there (not every word is wisdom but almost all the wisdom is somewhere) we would be far far far better of.

from your except i guess that you did not read that up just to reply ;) interesting in many aspects (positively of coxurse)

To do that takes reading between many lines. There is certainly much wisdom in the Bible, there is certainly much self-interest driven scripture. I noticed in Revelations that the writer (John) says that if anyone takes out of the book, that much will be taken out of what's written in the book of life about them. If anyone adds lies to it, they will suffer the plagues as an individual. (The book of enoch has been removed, I think it's only rational to presume baloney was added out of self-interest many times)

Disregarding interpretations, it seems obvious to me now that the writer knew that evil individuals or groups of individuals would distort the bible and fill it with crap. Thus, of course it comes off as pure fiction from an outside perspective. However there truly is a vast abundance of wisdom within. Again, Revelations is indescribably apt for defining a "general" idea of present events using figurative/symbolic language. It is not irrational to contemplate the ideas within, even if only for a different perspective on the matter of what certainly does appear to be a looming apocalypse.

I continue to stand by the notion that we who are aware and willing to try must awaken the many individual reporters as soon as possible to their crucial positions of influence at a crucial point in time. They are human, and humans are good, but misguided! They are just unaware of their role as individuals and how that relates to the collective in the bigger picture.

A media call for unity will create and amplify unity elsewhere: in science, in industry, in humanity.

I guess I'm just hoping someone will take this idea and make it work, because I really don't want to have to write this letter I'm proposing and get the reporter mailing lists myself and try to influence a consciousness shift there. I do have a way with words when it matters, but I don't have the roadmap that we need to follow to make changes. I don't think anyone does, but you scientists are the cartologists, whether or not the map is complete.

The media would need to fully support the most monumental collaboration of scientists working together towards that map, or at least some progress, and as many people as are willing to support in any way possible. Labour, production, everything. The media needs some kind of map to show everyone, essentially, complete or not. "This is what we have to do, let's go world" and report only on progress and what we need to do, focus on communication/information.

We have to start talking together about global scale, collective solution implementation, those of us who want to try. Dig deep. You must understand that things are only so bad because we have never been unified. I cannot foresee a bleak future if we achieve the kind of unity required to weather this storm. The world would be thrust into a state of new awareness for good, unified, past these petty issues. They would be cast to the wayside thereafter.

We cannot apply current pessimistic outlooks to that possible new state. Perhaps together we could figure out our population issues and how to manage resources together such that we all have abundance and respect the natural world as it provides for us, perhaps we could see things so much clearer. Who can imagine the beautiful things a unified world with unified goals could achieve? It's beyond my imagination. Hold on to that as you work towards a solution.

The black swan may in fact be human awareness itself.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 07:45:35 PM by 5to10 »

magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2017, 07:42:29 PM »
I have lived and worked in many countries either in or exiting from dictatorships.  I failed to find one either intelligent or benevolent.
Unfortunately for our survival as a species, intelligent benevolent people don't seem to lust after power. There must be an evoluionary reason for that.

this depends whether evolution is the goal, in my opinion, once we take away self-importance entirely, things like:

we humans, our planet, our city too much to write but hope it's understood, evolution becomes meaningless.

we should never forget that in a about 2-3 billion years, once the sun begins the "evolution" to become a "red giant" we or at least this planet will be doomed, no matter how much and into what we "evolve" and this is an undeniable fact.

i know some will jump in and say what the f... i'm talking about "billions of years in the future" but then this is a reply to "evolution" and evolution has started billions of years ago and will continue billions of years, hence it's on-topic when talking "evolution"

it's always difficult for me to remain short and to the point in such topics that all the libraries in the world cannot cover ;)
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pileus

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2017, 08:36:50 PM »
The notion that the "media" can somehow be unified and evangelize a biosphere saving (and therefore humanity preserving) message is interesting but has little to no chance of success.  The media is a human construct not unlike most others:  composed of people with a multitude of perspectives, frames of reference, motivations, and missions. 

If we have observed and verified that current human societies, nations and communities are unable to move as one to recognize and mitigate existential threats to the biosphere and the future of humanity, there is no reason to believe that the "media" will achieve such a mind shift.

And these days, the media is a much broader sweep of individuals inputs due to evolution of technology and communication vehicles.  There is no central point of reference that defines media, and there is no possible way to centralize and standardize a singular message.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2017, 08:49:30 PM »
The notion that the "media" can somehow be unified and evangelize a biosphere saving (and therefore humanity preserving) message is interesting but has little to no chance of success.  The media is a human construct not unlike most others:  composed of people with a multitude of perspectives, frames of reference, motivations, and missions. 

If we have observed and verified that current human societies, nations and communities are unable to move as one to recognize and mitigate existential threats to the biosphere and the future of humanity, there is no reason to believe that the "media" will achieve such a mind shift.

And these days, the media is a much broader sweep of individuals inputs due to evolution of technology and communication vehicles.  There is no central point of reference that defines media, and there is no possible way to centralize and standardize a singular message.

Well that is our only hope to unite consciousness towards pressing matters.

Certainly newsmedia comprises of many various views and opinions. I would wager to guess that most individuals within it are rational and the rest can be lead to rationality by way of mass majority influence.

It would not be an instantaneous shift. The key is raising the awareness of the majority, in fact directing awareness to a specific place: You are the ones with the power to change this, but only together.

I realize the logistics are unimaginable. Yet we stlll can't say impossible, thus unless anyone else has a better idea as to a starting point with a higher probability of success (however low this one is)... What are we waiting for? Impactful work ASAP requires unified consciousness, media directs consciousness. The only weakness of the beast that is the media machine, is the humanity within the reporters as individuals and the epiphanic awareness waiting to be aroused within them.

Act now however we can or accept that your certainty of our inevitable demise is based on high improbability, not impossibility, and thus your inaction is irrational and tantamount to longterm suicide or the murder of future generations.

It is time to start feeling the guilt we deserve and not accepting "the inevitable". Call it the highly probable, and lay down and die then, if you must. Reporters/editors/all moral individuals within newsmedia must be made aware that they are doing the same and will thus slowly come to realize their direct, serious influence on the situation AS INDIVIDUALS, not just as a collective. They are not aware yet, they don't understand their individual role in the big picture, they are not subject to the related pangs of conscience yet or they would be facing the moral dilemma therein with every single story they publish.

Logically this must lead to something big, and we must admit that barring unknown technological, spiritual, or exo-planetary black swans that we have no more likely or optimistic way to start something here.

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #111 on: February 28, 2017, 08:51:52 PM »
This sums it up for me . . .

dnem

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #112 on: February 28, 2017, 08:54:12 PM »
Gus Speth is my absolute hero.  I urge anyone who has not read his books to do so.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #113 on: February 28, 2017, 09:13:04 PM »
This sums it up for me . . .

I'm trying to tell everybody including you scientists how to do that. Awareness must first be raised in those who make up the cogs of the global awareness machine. Awareness of their role and thus perhaps guilt for their role. We have to work on how to do that ASAP coupled with real optimism on how things can progress thereafter, if we are together.

A hard, painful, psychologically devastating awareness where they are eventually faced with a clear moral choice. And most people are good, deep down, just misguided and lacking awareness. I have seen no reason to believe otherwise in my travels. Surely the majority will not psychologically be able to support "the beast" anymore with their distracting, pointless, disjointed, divisive diatribe which composes the vast majority of available news. If they are clear on what MUST be reported on, how could they do anything else if they are good and rational? Once a mass consciousness shift starts there, the current destructive state of consciousness (and any entities wishing to maintain it) will be helpless to stop it rippling outwards.

We who are for good and admit a highly improbable chance is still a chance need to attack and use the machine in the opposite way that it is being used now, and it will have the opposite effects, unity rather than division. Real change rather than stagnation, nay, acceleration of our self-destruction. Not fear, division, confusion and certain doom, but TRUE hope, focus, purpose, direction, the promise of a new, compassionate, loving future TOGETHER rather than a horrifying legacy of division and hatred.

It is your choice, all of our choice which future we accept in the present, no matter how stacked the odds are, that is certain to help fulfill it beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Many an impossible poker hand was won on the river.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 09:20:43 PM by 5to10 »

pileus

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #114 on: February 28, 2017, 09:20:14 PM »
The notion that the "media" can somehow be unified and evangelize a biosphere saving (and therefore humanity preserving) message is interesting but has little to no chance of success.  The media is a human construct not unlike most others:  composed of people with a multitude of perspectives, frames of reference, motivations, and missions. 

If we have observed and verified that current human societies, nations and communities are unable to move as one to recognize and mitigate existential threats to the biosphere and the future of humanity, there is no reason to believe that the "media" will achieve such a mind shift.

And these days, the media is a much broader sweep of individuals inputs due to evolution of technology and communication vehicles.  There is no central point of reference that defines media, and there is no possible way to centralize and standardize a singular message.

Well that is our only hope to unite consciousness towards pressing matters.

Certainly newsmedia comprises of many various views and opinions. I would wager to guess that most individuals within it are rational and the rest can be lead to rationality by way of mass majority influence.

It would not be an instantaneous shift. The key is raising the awareness of the majority, in fact directing awareness to a specific place: You are the ones with the power to change this, but only together.

I realize the logistics are unimaginable. Yet we stlll can't say impossible, thus unless anyone else has a better idea as to a starting point with a higher probability of success (however low this one is)... What are we waiting for? Impactful work ASAP requires unified consciousness, media directs consciousness. The only weakness of the beast that is the media machine, is the humanity within the reporters as individuals and the epiphanic awareness waiting to be aroused within them.

Act now however we can or accept that your certainty of our inevitable demise is based on high improbability, not impossibility, and thus your inaction is irrational and tantamount to longterm suicide or the murder of future generations.

It is time to start feeling the guilt we deserve and not accepting "the inevitable". Call it the highly probable, and lay down and die then, if you must. Reporters/editors/all moral individuals within newsmedia must be made aware that they are doing the same and will thus slowly come to realize their direct, serious influence on the situation AS INDIVIDUALS, not just as a collective. They are not aware yet, they don't understand their individual role in the big picture, they are not subject to the related pangs of conscience yet or they would be facing the moral dilemma therein with every single story they publish.

Logically this must lead to something big, and we must admit that barring unknown technological, spiritual, or exo-planetary black swans that we have no more likely or optimistic way to start something here.

Interesting thoughts, but -

> Humans are more biologically and cognitively instinctual vs rational, and the meaning of "rational" could be debated to no end.  What's rational to you may not be to me, and so forth. 

> There is no such thing as a "unified consciousness".  It's all relative, and subject to the same variables of frame of reference, motivation, meeting basic needs for self and loved ones.

What's irrational is the belief that any form of mammal is meant to persist ad infinitum.  That does not square with the biologic and fossil record.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #115 on: February 28, 2017, 09:26:37 PM »
Interesting thoughts, but -

> Humans are more biologically and cognitively instinctual vs rational, and the meaning of "rational" could be debated to no end.  What's rational to you may not be to me, and so forth. 

> There is no such thing as a "unified consciousness".  It's all relative, and subject to the same variables of frame of reference, motivation, meeting basic needs for self and loved ones.

What's irrational is the belief that any form of mammal is meant to persist ad infinitum.  That does not square with the biologic and fossil record.

I would argue that we have in many ways overcome many base instincts via heightened awareness. In conjunction do these things happen and this is evident throughout history and in the present.

Thus a gigantic shift in awareness is still totally rational.

It may be irrational to believe that "any form of mammal is meant to persist" but it is just as irrational to believe that life here NOW is 100%, certainly, no way out meant to disappear here.

The only rational perspective is "It's highly improbable we get out of this and save the natural world such that it can heal, but we cannot say it is impossible, thus there may be a fleeting chance we may not be aware of right now." and thus the only rational course of action is to look for that fleeting chance.

If you aren't doing that, you are long-term suicidal as well as presently and henceforth allowing the destruction of most or all living things as a result of individual and collective inaction EVEN STILL when it looks impossible (But we still can't say it is...). Perhaps you're okay with that, but that's on you and your values.

In essence, I'm doing to you as you read this and cognitive dissonance fades, what we need to do to the reporters. Everything I said is truth, despite any probabilities you can throw at me.

Now that you are acutely aware that you cannot scientifically propose that it is impossible, you have to do everything you can think of from this moment forward to help save the natural world with the rest of us who understand this, or admit you are okay with the natural world being murdered by yours and everyone elses inaction as a direct result of a lack of focused awareness on THE TRUTH in the present.

It was never inevitable. It still isn't. WE ARE, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MAKING IT INEVITABLE IN OUR OWN MINDS.

You will understand if you are honest and rational that as I am speaking nothing but the truth, there is no rebuttal that cannot be easily cast aside with further truth, and I don't believe one is gifted truth for any purpose other than sharing it and trying to raise awareness for the better. The truth is not mine, it has nothing to do with me as a person, and I deserve no credit for its appearance within my consciousness should it be truth.

We must all accept and cannot avoid the truth, and the moral ramifications of the truth once it is clear to us. If we do not accept it, it is still as yet unclear.

It is our choice what to do with it.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 09:52:37 PM by 5to10 »

magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2017, 09:40:13 PM »
The notion that the "media" can somehow be unified and evangelize a biosphere saving (and therefore humanity preserving) message is interesting but has little to no chance of success.  The media is a human construct not unlike most others:  composed of people with a multitude of perspectives, frames of reference, motivations, and missions. 

If we have observed and verified that current human societies, nations and communities are unable to move as one to recognize and mitigate existential threats to the biosphere and the future of humanity, there is no reason to believe that the "media" will achieve such a mind shift.

And these days, the media is a much broader sweep of individuals inputs due to evolution of technology and communication vehicles.  There is no central point of reference that defines media, and there is no possible way to centralize and standardize a singular message.

agree 100%

and a bit more bluntly said:

a) they sell advertising

b) they do it for money

nothing wrong with that but then it's part of the problem and certainly prevents any sound moves that go against the advertisers and those they live from are not the small ones who place tiny ads for a few bucks, it's those who do "Public Relation" more than advertising and in the millions, or did anyone ever fuel his car because of an exxon or british petroleum "AD" certainly no-one i know about. :-)
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5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #117 on: February 28, 2017, 10:01:55 PM »
The notion that the "media" can somehow be unified and evangelize a biosphere saving (and therefore humanity preserving) message is interesting but has little to no chance of success.  The media is a human construct not unlike most others:  composed of people with a multitude of perspectives, frames of reference, motivations, and missions. 

If we have observed and verified that current human societies, nations and communities are unable to move as one to recognize and mitigate existential threats to the biosphere and the future of humanity, there is no reason to believe that the "media" will achieve such a mind shift.

And these days, the media is a much broader sweep of individuals inputs due to evolution of technology and communication vehicles.  There is no central point of reference that defines media, and there is no possible way to centralize and standardize a singular message.

agree 100%

and a bit more bluntly said:

a) they sell advertising

b) they do it for money

nothing wrong with that but then it's part of the problem and certainly prevents any sound moves that go against the advertisers and those they live from are not the small ones who place tiny ads for a few bucks, it's those who do "Public Relation" more than advertising and in the millions, or did anyone ever fuel his car because of an exxon or british petroleum "AD" certainly no-one i know about. :-)

Irrelevant. What we are talking about is an abrupt shift not in climate, but in consciousness.

You cannot apply the evils of the inhuman media to the human reporters who compose it without taking into account their lack of awareness and understanding. The present state is not what the future paradigm shift would be. The effects of its influence and destruction would be reversed.

Whether or not that is enough, we cannot say right now. Whether or not you think fighting for that fleeting chance is the proper course of action is your own decision based on your own morals and values. But that is the truth and there is no avoiding it. It is not necessarily impossible, so stop acting like it is.

Presenting improbability as impossibility is fundamentally unscientific and deceptive.

Admit the possibility and that we must try everything now to seek that glimmer of hope, or admit that you are okay with it and through your inaction and your admission are directly helping it happen despite knowing if it's a certainty or not in the present.

Feel the cognitive dissonance melt away, friend. I don't doubt some people will spite me for making them acutely aware of the fundamental truths of their position and the decision they now have to make. This is already evident through the "Well its just unlikely. It just couldn't happen. The news sucks, how could we ever change it?" pushback given that I have presented a route to do that: Raise the awareness of the good, moral human beings which the newsmedia deceives into deceiving the rest of us.

We are good, just blind.

Though I feel for any of you reading who now carry the extra weight of these recognitions, it is for the better of you and all of us.

Improbable does not necessarily mean impossible. You know that is true. If any of this makes you feel any hope at all, feel any guilt at all, gain any understanding at all or any amount of desire to work together at all, consider the effects on a much wider audience.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 10:25:23 PM by 5to10 »

CognitiveBias

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #118 on: February 28, 2017, 10:17:22 PM »
I will have some of what 5to10 is smoking.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:09:40 PM by CognitiveBias »

pileus

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #119 on: February 28, 2017, 10:24:36 PM »
Interesting thoughts, but -

> Humans are more biologically and cognitively instinctual vs rational, and the meaning of "rational" could be debated to no end.  What's rational to you may not be to me, and so forth. 

> There is no such thing as a "unified consciousness".  It's all relative, and subject to the same variables of frame of reference, motivation, meeting basic needs for self and loved ones.

What's irrational is the belief that any form of mammal is meant to persist ad infinitum.  That does not square with the biologic and fossil record.

I would argue that we have in many ways overcome many base instincts via heightened awareness. In conjunction do these things happen and this is evident throughout history and in the present.

Thus a gigantic shift in awareness is still totally rational.

It may be irrational to believe that "any form of mammal is meant to persist" but it is just as irrational to believe that life here NOW is 100%, certainly, no way out meant to disappear here.

The only rational perspective is "It's highly improbable we get out of this and save the natural world such that it can heal, but we cannot say it is impossible, thus there may be a fleeting chance we may not be aware of right now." and thus the only rational course of action is to look for that fleeting chance.

If you aren't doing that, you are long-term suicidal as well as presently and henceforth allowing the destruction of most or all living things as a result of individual and collective inaction EVEN STILL when it looks impossible (But we still can't say it is...). Perhaps you're okay with that, but that's on you and your values.

In essence, I'm doing to you as you read this and cognitive dissonance fades, what we need to do to the reporters. Everything I said is truth, despite any probabilities you can throw at me.

Now that you are acutely aware that you cannot scientifically propose that it is impossible, you have to do everything you can think of from this moment forward to help save the natural world with the rest of us who understand this, or admit you are okay with the natural world being murdered by yours and everyone elses inaction in the present.

It was never inevitable. It still isn't. WE ARE, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MAKING IT INEVITABLE IN OUR OWN MINDS.

You will understand if you are honest and rational that as I am speaking nothing but the truth, there is no rebuttal that cannot be easily cast aside with further truth, and I don't believe one is gifted truth for any purpose other than sharing it and trying to raise awareness for the better. The truth is not mine, it has nothing to do with me as a person, and I deserve no credit for its appearance within my consciousness should it be truth.

We must all accept and cannot avoid the truth, and the moral ramifications of the truth once it is clear to us. If we do not accept it, it is still as yet unclear.

It is our choice what to do with it.

Although it's an interesting rhetorical strategy to cast others as suicidal and murderers whilst trying to educate and influence towards a "unified consciousness", may I suggest that's it really not an effective consensus building strategy and is more likely to cause a negative response to your perspective and end goals.

But to entertain the concept, the reality is that this "murdering" has always been and will always be a central characteristic of humanity.  Humans have either transformed, subjugated, or murdered every form of flora and fauna that we've encountered in our brief tenure as a species.  The only forms of life to escape this intentional fate are the undiscovered, and even so we indirectly do the same things to them via our collective human activities within the biosphere.

Of course efforts should continue and need to ramp up considerably to shift energy consumption away from fossil fuels, and to repair and preserve what remains of the natural world for today and future generations.  Harnessing the media and other entities to assist with that is a perfectly reasonable and rational approach.  But the observational record of human behavior, and what we appear to understand about the physical forces we've unleashed, would strongly suggest that we are time limited as a species.  There is nothing murderous or suicidal about reaching that conclusion.

Your thoughts and intent are admirable, though likely Quixotic.

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #120 on: February 28, 2017, 10:32:16 PM »
Although it's an interesting rhetorical strategy to cast others as suicidal and murderers whilst trying to educate and influence towards a "unified consciousness", may I suggest that's it really not an effective consensus building strategy and is more likely to cause a negative response to your perspective and end goals.

But to entertain the concept, the reality is that this "murdering" has always been and will always be a central characteristic of humanity.  Humans have either transformed, subjugated, or murdered every form of flora and fauna that we've encountered in our brief tenure as a species.  The only forms of life to escape this intentional fate are the undiscovered, and even so we indirectly do the same things to them via our collective human activities within the biosphere.

Of course efforts should continue and need to ramp up considerably to shift energy consumption away from fossil fuels, and to repair and preserve what remains of the natural world for today and future generations.  Harnessing the media and other entities to assist with that is a perfectly reasonable and rational approach.  But the observational record of human behavior, and what we appear to understand about the physical forces we've unleashed, would strongly suggest that we are time limited as a species.  There is nothing murderous or suicidal about reaching that conclusion.

Your thoughts and intent are admirable, though likely Quixotic.

How do we reach consensus without relative unity in consciousness?

Certainly once the acute, real awareness is there not only of how impending the risk is but also of a legitimate albeit difficult hope, which by and large is nonexistent, there immediately becomes something murderous or suicidal about inaction within our minds. Why not follow that hope? It was awakened within me after I gave up and said "We're done for" and I'm sure it exists in others. I cannot come to another rational conclusion. Negative reaction is expected but also should be expected to fade quickly with understanding and replaced with optimism and a new purpose for many, a new being, we will be transformed.

If we try and succeed, if we heal the earth, the world thereafter will likely be glorious and unlike anything we can conceive in the present context. We would be together, working together to heal the world and each other. If we try and fail anyways, at least we go down together. If we do not try yet we know we could have, along with our uncertainty of destruction, we are simply suicidal and murderous at the same time. The only variable is if it IS impossible, which we cannot say for sure. So there is only one rational solution.

Again that is a difficult recognition but it is true.

We cannot say what the results of a global consciousness shift would be, so to say "It might end in chaos and panic and destruction anyways" is still not an out here. The results are also the same, so the risk is calculated, and not doing it is a worse choice as there doesn't appear to be any other option.

Rational beings who value the natural world which exists here now and could potentially be healed for the future must try. Rational beings who value the natural world but think it is better that we don't try so that "life has a better chance of restarting here after everything is gone" or anything else must accept that they are putting their stamp of approval on present destruction. But they must also admit, they do not know whether or not we could succeed in a true effort at recovery and future abundance, especially once you understand possible solutions exist like this idea I have presented, which is "unlikely but rational". That does make one somewhat murderous and suicidal.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:00:48 PM by 5to10 »

be cause

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #121 on: February 28, 2017, 10:59:16 PM »
 I smoke ... and drink Ayahuasca . These interactions have shown me how pliable this world is . Our thoughts .. all of them .. are the creative forces that make this world what it is . However the only thoughts we can truely change are our own .
Ayahuasca visions have shown me that this world is an illusion where the sleeping children of the Creator are given endless opportunity to awaken . As the bible says .. Adam slept. There is no reference to him (us) awakening . As Jesus says .. ye are all Gods !
  He also said 'judge not' .. but we always are , denying ourselves experience of our Divinity. When we allow ourselves , we too will see the 'New Jerusalem' and a world of love and light will embrace even the Donald Trumps  :)
  Where then our fears and worries about Climate change ?
be the cause of only good
and love all beings as you should
and the 'God' of all Creation
will .. through you .. transform all nations :)

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #122 on: February 28, 2017, 11:05:19 PM »
I smoke ... and drink Ayahuasca . These interactions have shown me how pliable this world is . Our thoughts .. all of them .. are the creative forces that make this world what it is . However the only thoughts we can truely change are our own .
Ayahuasca visions have shown me that this world is an illusion where the sleeping children of the Creator are given endless opportunity to awaken . As the bible says .. Adam slept. There is no reference to him (us) awakening . As Jesus says .. ye are all Gods !
  He also said 'judge not' .. but we always are , denying ourselves experience of our Divinity. When we allow ourselves , we too will see the 'New Jerusalem' and a world of love and light will embrace even the Donald Trumps  :)
  Where then our fears and worries about Climate change ?

I think they are there, just silenced by our indulgence, effective even in the subconscious. I do understand the sentiment. I'd also have to say that our fears and awareness on climate change are increasing and the effects are also speeding up/increasing, so this would agree with the idea that it is all from within.

It's all very heady stuff yet the truth seems to force its way through the murk if you are looking for it. We beat this from within, together.

magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #123 on: February 28, 2017, 11:46:20 PM »
it's recommended to not begin replies with "irrelevant" and continue with "you cannot" because:

- it's kind of rude

- even if does not exactly fit your (a bit far fetched but that's ok) thoughts it is relevant, very much so even.
. it's not only just part of the problem, it's key, at least one of the key underlaying reasons for bias and lying.

- i just did it hence one can do it

- the topic is about all contributions combined, there is no "the discussion is about" because for someone
. else the discussions perhaps seems to be or is about something more or perhaps less holistic or whatever.

it's a pity that so many interesting topics end with someone claiming the entire truth and making the rules alone.
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josh-j

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #124 on: March 01, 2017, 01:07:58 AM »
Nevertheless 5to10 is right; giving up on the assumption that nothing will work misses the potential we humans have to act differently.

Collective action won't come about through data alone. People need to grasp the issue emotionally and also be able to see a way forward so as to be moved to action rather than denial or despair. It's something I expect many posters here have experienced; the feeling of knowing what is coming while also continuing 'normal' life.

But if 'our' knowledge was more widely understood, this despair aspect would drop away and be replaced with hope. Even if we couldn't ultimately succeed, we would be part of a heroic effort, and I think that is a common trait that could be awoken in most people.

As to how this could be done... I wonder how constrained reporters are by their rich media-mogul bosses?

This is a great discussion - and 5to10, you certainly woke me up just now (right before bed  ;D )

TerryM

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #125 on: March 01, 2017, 05:04:12 AM »
When there is nothing that can be done, that which cannot be done will be grasped at, rather than admit it is beyond us.

By the time we knew there was a problem, we were far past solutions.  Sometimes you just don't realize until it's too late.

Irrigation, dams and agriculture put us outside the envelope, beyond the environment governing our numbers and impact.

Which puts us thousands of years late in grasping the consequences.  Shit happens.

We had a good run.


I just felt that this had to be brought to the head of the list again.


Our problems aren't new, and the solutions are unlikely to be found in new technology.
I don't think our species is staring the grim reaper in the eye, but almost all humans need to be gone before things can begin to right themselves.
Civilization created the problem, and civilization needs to go gently into the night lest it take all of us along.


Terry

epiphyte

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2017, 07:54:44 AM »
...
c: exploding population in humans directly resulting from industrialization, not vice versa.
 just as 90% of other problems we see. Warming, greenhouse gases for example is measured from a pre-industrial baseline for that reason as well of course.

My great-granddad travelled by horse. I travel further because I have a car that has 400 mile range on a tank of gas.  My problems:

1) I'm 400 miles from home and out of gas
2) I don't know my way around in this unfamiliar place
3) I'm hungry


It's the car's fault?  Or as my 13 yr-old would say 'Logic much, brah?'

My Dad was connected daily to the people in his office, the people in his home, and (one way only) to the newsreaders on  on TV, and the journalists who wrote the articles in the London Evening Standard and the Sunday Telegraph.

In pursuit of maintaining personal and business connections, I crossed the Atlantic more than a hundred times, and ran up more than a million air-miles - enough to go to the moon and back four times - to meet people who's names I couldn't pronounce, living in places I'd never heard of. I inadvertently generated thousands of tonnes of CO2 doing it.

Now I'm at home and I don't know my way around in this unfamiliar place.

My 16 year-old daughter converses daily with people all over the planet, as a matter of course, courtesy of an information infrastructure that is increasingly powered by renewable energy. What do they talk about?  - things that are increasingly detached from the physical world.

In one way, it's progress of the kind that will be needed, if humanity is to avoid the same fate as a yeast culture growing in a brewing carboy. In another, it's problematic - because all of us are closer than most realize to being (in cognitivebias' words) 400 miles from home, out of gas, and hungry.

Objectively, our civilization is more fragile than any in history, for no other reason than that it is utterly ephemeral - millions of people must show up for tens of thousands of highly specialized jobs every day just to keep it running - and there's no backup.

The sum-total of human knowledge - not just technology but government, business and personal records, social connections, diaries, photographs, even memories, is now vested in a context which requires that knowledge to be continuously available in order to sustain itself. The single printed copy of the 1990 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica at your local library just isn't going to cut it.

The average person living in the USA or much of Europe couldn't light a fire if their lives depended on it, far less generate electricity, or go get the groceries at the local Wal-mart, which is long day's walk away.

Heck, even the average farmer probably couldn't grow enough food to feed his own family without Round-Up-Ready genetically-modified seed-corn, which includes a built-in terminator gene to ensure that if you keep some of your crop back to plant next year, nothing will grow.

Is it the internet's fault? Or as my 12 year-old would say, "Dad, was there a point to all that? - I stopped listening about a month ago."




Neven

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2017, 08:04:04 AM »
Welcome to the ASIF, Ranman99. Your profile has been released.

It won't help but ... if I view the Yin Yang symbol as duality and my sense of existing/being is the edge of the circle. What is outside of the circle is true, infinite and unborn and the context for what is inside to arise in. What is inside is the play.

It does not mean "I" don't do something "I" will always do something ::) Sorry just babbling as usual.

Nothing like immanent crises to bring focus.
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6roucho

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2017, 05:12:27 PM »
I have lived and worked in many countries either in or exiting from dictatorships.  I failed to find one either intelligent or benevolent.
Unfortunately for our survival as a species, intelligent benevolent people don't seem to lust after power. There must be an evoluionary reason for that.

this depends whether evolution is the goal
I agree it's a mistake to think of evolution as a goal: evolution is purely a process, but it undoubtedly is responsible for [almost] everything we are as animals.

magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2017, 06:26:10 PM »
Civilization created the problem, and civilization needs to go gently into the night lest it take all of us along.


Terry

+1

unfortunately for the 98% but that's how it is :(
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dnem

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2017, 06:26:14 PM »
>I agree it's a mistake to think of evolution as a goal: evolution is purely a process, but it undoubtedly is responsible for [almost] everything we are as animals.

Although CRISPR has the potential to change all that!

magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2017, 06:50:07 PM »
>I agree it's a mistake to think of evolution as a goal: evolution is purely a process, but it undoubtedly is responsible for [almost] everything we are as animals.

Although CRISPR has the potential to change all that!

we came on terms, all clear :-) thanks for feedback

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRISPR
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OrganicSu

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #132 on: March 01, 2017, 07:39:31 PM »
I hear you 5to10 like you are in my own head.
If the media miraculously get it and want to get us all onto the right road, do you know what they need to say?

If I was elected dictator of the world tomorrow with a magical wand to make everyone follow me rules, I would decree, with immediate effect:
Shut down all nuclear power and store the toxic wastes as best as possible.
Stop all production.
Stop all transportation.
No more ff generated electricity. Electricity exists only from existing renewable until it breaks.
Eat whatever you can find.
Everyone must plant trees and dig swales.
No cutting down of trees.
There are enough hand tools and clothes and housing etc needed for the foreseeable future.

Even then  there is no guarantee that AGW is reversible and that homo sapiens get to exist longer than the foreseeable future.
So I would kindly ask everyone to pray.

jdallen

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #133 on: March 01, 2017, 10:37:33 PM »
I hear you 5to10 like you are in my own head.
If the media miraculously get it and want to get us all onto the right road, do you know what they need to say?

If I was elected dictator of the world tomorrow with a magical wand to make everyone follow me rules, I would decree, with immediate effect:
Shut down all nuclear power and store the toxic wastes as best as possible.
Stop all production.
Stop all transportation.
No more ff generated electricity. Electricity exists only from existing renewable until it breaks.
Eat whatever you can find.
Everyone must plant trees and dig swales.
No cutting down of trees.
There are enough hand tools and clothes and housing etc needed for the foreseeable future.

Even then  there is no guarantee that AGW is reversible and that homo sapiens get to exist longer than the foreseeable future.
So I would kindly ask everyone to pray.
Ooof! And three billion people promptly die from starvation, exposure, disease and fighting. There is a difference between lowering a basket of eggs  to the floor, and simply knocking it off the shelf.  We have the means and time to do the former.
This space for Rent.

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #134 on: March 01, 2017, 10:46:35 PM »
No cutting down of trees
.
I humbly request, your majesty.
Would it be ok if someone cut down the thousands and thousands of dead ones that died last year across the street from my home? I mean, they are dead already.

magnamentis

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2017, 11:32:38 PM »
No cutting down of trees
.
I humbly request, your majesty.
Would it be ok if someone cut down the thousands and thousands of dead ones that died last year across the street from my home? I mean, they are dead already.

we have to change the thread title into: "Totally Open" hehe....

it seems that the two found each other LOL

like with all dictatorships decrees only cause people to suffer and let everything rot to unusable state and in the process poison the earth. whoever has been in eastern europe during "cold war times" knows exactly what that means.
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Bruce Steele

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2017, 11:37:27 PM »
For a slightly longer list some of you may choose to read a current" Doomstead Diner" piece. What you shouldn't say in public.

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/

It ends . " Such is the nature of a cull "

wili

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #137 on: March 02, 2017, 12:28:19 AM »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tigertown

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #138 on: March 02, 2017, 12:29:50 AM »
I said what I did about the dead trees in a lighthearted manner, but the point is still valid. We are a little further along in this deal than most people realize, although I think they will soon have to.

Cate

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #139 on: March 02, 2017, 01:26:31 AM »
I miss A-Team. I reeaaaallly miss A-Team.

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #140 on: March 02, 2017, 01:37:37 AM »
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #141 on: March 02, 2017, 03:24:13 AM »
I thought to participate in this thread by taking the last frame of ADS/Jaxa sea ice thickness map for February by Wipneus and giving it 2 meters of melt all around Arctic. Hey, Ho! (these always look pretty bad early in the spring, but some thickness growth wo-ould be nice, thank you) Better do this  again after solstice  ::) :P :o ??? The highly inaccurate calculation out of this image would say that is somewhere around 1,1 Mkm2. (a bit more sensible number would be 1,8M (right to changes reserved))
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 09:47:06 AM by Pmt111500 »
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Oddmonk

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #142 on: March 02, 2017, 03:53:54 AM »
This is a very interesting thread. I thought I would participate with a rant! I would like to offer my views on the emerging moral debate about our collective and individual responsibilities and efforts to alter the predicted course and consequences of climate change. Sorry it's so long.

On the one hand, some of us think we all must vigorously proselytize to spread the word that AGW is real and consequential, while attempting to limiting our own impact. On the other hand, some of us feel that this will be insufficient to affect any real change, and have transitioned to trying to accept our collective doom. Many of us are probably waffling between these poles. I know I am, in my efforts to find enduring hope for humanity. I am greedy for more information, ideas and insights. I also miss A-Team!

As the data collected here on ASIF and elsewhere continue to add up—sea ice extent and volume decline, glacier retreat, atmospheric and surface temperature shifts and warming, CO2 levels, methane levels, sea level rise—it becomes increasingly difficult to imagine realistic solutions.

I don't see much reason for hope in any of the current speculative technical solutions to AGW in general, many of which are impossible from an engineering perspective, and none of which have political or economic viability at the moment. Technical stopgaps exist and are necessary, such as higher sea walls, fresh water collection, transportation and storage for people and agriculture, drought-resistant crops, emissions reductions in industry and transportation, and renewable power generation, etc. But damming Fram Strait to prevent export, or pumping seawater into the CAB to build volume, is fantasy.

International political and policy solutions are probably the only humane and effective ones in the long term, but it remains to be seen how this might be accomplished, especially with the current global political upheaval. The United Nations is the closest humans have to an institution capable of mediating between the various interests involved, but there are some 200 nations, each with its own diverse interests and capacities. It appears to be difficult enough to find consensus among the Arctic nations.

The most significant obstacle to hope, in my opinion, lies in our individual and collective reluctance to leave behind the security and seeming stability of the status quo. Even when we see the failures of the carbon age, we must acknowledge that the energy it provides enables the survival of billions of humans. Some of us even thrive on that energy: our jobs, homes, cars, cities, medicine and technology, and the internet connecting us here, are all possible because of carbon fuels. I require a car to get to my job, for example, and my house is heated and cooled by coal fired electricity and natural gas. My place of employment uses the electrical equivalent of a small town and would not (does not) function without it. Renewables have a long way to go before they can replace all that energy. Renewables are the only solution in the long term, but the political will to make the transition right now is absent.

Climate change will continue to disrupt regions and systems—both natural and human—and as it does, people will attempt to adapt through migration, economic exchange and accrual, political involvement, education, and technology. Societies will and do attempt to adapt through stronger political and social controls on individuals and institutions, through economic and political isolationism, increased exploitation of natural 'resources', and nationalism and war.

Arguably, this is happening now with the rise of the far right in the USA and Europe. Totalitarianism—the attempted total control of society by the state and it agents—offers some hope for the most fearful and under-informed of us in the shape of security for the in-group. Think Trump's wall, for example. Such nationalism begets an 'us vs. them' attitude and ideology. It promotes the belief that "I and my kin are good, everyone else is a threat to our survival, so keep them away or kill them." Unfortunately for the believers, however, such a position is belied by the material interconnectedness of all natural and human systems. Real isolationism will come at great human cost, as the United States may discover if Trump's foreign policy drifts even more to the extreme right.

Urban North Americans, Europeans, Africans, Asians and Australians and New Zealanders rely entirely on global food networks, the global flow of oil and coal, metals, minerals, capital investments, international loans and trade negotiations. Without these global systems of fuel, capital, and food and water distribution, many places on the planet are already uninhabitable. Consider, for example, the energy it takes to condition the air in the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, where summer temperatures average 41C (~106F), with spikes into the upper 40s (>110F). Or Ski Dubai, an indoor ski slope at the Mall of the Emirates, cooled to below 0C continuously. Dubai desalinates more than a millions cubic meters of water a day.

Fossil fuels and agriculture seem to have driven human expansion (population) significantly beyond the sustainable carrying capacity of regional ecosystems, if not of the whole Earth. Consider the rapidly rising rates of species extinction that are by now well-documented and scientifically incontrovertible. Those extinctions are a result of human exploitation of the ecosystems we shared with those creatures, and in some cases we ate them all. In ecology, an organism that disrupts the local ecology is considered to have exceeded the ecosystem's carrying capacity. We humans have.

As regional climates change, human systems are disrupted. North and West African migration to the Mediterranean, as an example, is arguably driven by desertification and water scarcity and the political and economic turmoil that ensues. We can't live in a place with no water. Migration, in turn, places new pressures on new ecosystems and new social, political and economic circumstances, which are often themselves stressed by climate change and population pressures. The South and Midwest in the USA is another example of already maxed out ecosystems and economies that are experiencing stress and pressure from migration from Latin America. In US agriculture there is a double irony, since it relies on—but will not integrate—an international migrant labor force. As ineffective and morally objectionable as Trump's border wall may be, it is—quite literally—a technical solution to the human problems of climate change.

I have yet to see a persuasive picture of how climate and social equilibrium might be achieved. Prognostication and prediction are beyond the capacity of any one person, but the principle of parsimony would suggest that the evidence of AGW and the resulting changes in climate and weather that we here on ASIF are witness to will overwhelm the carbon economy and the 'civilization' it sustains.

We need more data before we can even know with any certainty what is happening and what will happen. Can anyone make more than an informed guess at when, if ever, the arctic will be ice free? Can anyone claim with scientific certainty to know what will happen to the weather in the Northern Hemisphere when/if it does? Can anyone say for sure that desertification and extreme weather won't become more urgent problems for humans than sea level rise? The IPCC's timeline for climate change seems unrealistically long, but what is the realistic timeline?

When Spring is 20 days early, as it is in the southeastern United States currently, how will agricultural production be affected? Will next spring be the same, or different? How will farmers know when to plant? When to harvest? Will there be annual surplus due to multiple crops, or famine from multiple crop failures?

Until we can answer questions such as these, we humans need to keep careful records of our scientific observations. It may be a bonfire of human vanity to attempt to understand and control our impact on the ecology of the planet, but it may also be the salvation of the species.

As I said, I waffle. I desperately want to be optimistic, and I cling to any glimmer of hope. Nevertheless, I am terribly afraid of what may come.

A final note: a sudden end of the carbon age will be catastrophic for the vast majority of humans. To do so by decree would be genocide.



5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #143 on: March 02, 2017, 04:12:33 AM »
Great post Oddmonk.

The situation at hand strikes me with awe, confusion, fascination, frustration, but at least not fear.

Optimism is our only chance.

If everyone could make a choice based on this fundamental truth in their own minds...

Can we say that it is impossible to unify and work towards impactful solutions, and the possibility of a better, brighter future should we weather the literal and figurative storms? No? Then we must try by all means to do what we can to save this living world we are destroying.

Do we admit that it may be possible, but refuse to try? Then we are beyond the shadow of a doubt ENSURING it is impossible in the end (Even though we cannot say for certain that it is right now). Thus we are voting for ensured destruction in an uncertain situation, through inaction.

This is an individual and collective truth.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 04:22:42 AM by 5to10 »

wili

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #144 on: March 02, 2017, 04:52:22 AM »
It's rather hard these days to be both well informed and completely optimistic.

But if you mean, with Antonio Gramsci: Optimismo de la voluntad y pesimismo de la razón, then I can perhaps follow you, at least on some days.  :) :(
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

OrganicSu

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #145 on: March 02, 2017, 06:19:48 AM »
Sorry about the '3billion' immediate deaths due to my decree. Oops, should have thought it through a bit more??
Today, what everyone involved in emitting CO2 is doing is committing genocide. You just need to bend your head to a different time frame. 1 week = x years.

We have way more than enough information to know this is a genocidal path. To stay on it is to commit genocide. You are culpable even if you prefer to feel like you are not.

As for dead trees, yes, cut them down and bury them.

If 350 ppm CO2 is the manageable level how do you think we are going to get there, very fast?

Tigertown

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #146 on: March 02, 2017, 06:51:47 AM »
If 350 ppm CO2 is the manageable level how do you think we are going to get there, very fast?
Like I pointed out in another thread a while back, if you look at surface concentrations around the world, these are 30 to 40 ppm's higher than they are near the mountain peak in Mauna Loa. So that's a long ways from 350 ppm, with 280 being ideal.

At the moment, we are probably more or less looking at these going up, not down. We are loosing sinks that for so long had been reliable. Trees that are dead and dying, not to mention deforestation. Phytoplankton numbers are going down and the  rest are absorbing less CO2. Permafrost is melting and giving up CO2 and methane. Add all that to industrial sources. I could go on and I am sure you all can add to that. It is not just a matter of stopping a speeding freight train, but turning it completely around. I don't think anyone is going to start a movement on here to do that.

OrganicSu

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #147 on: March 02, 2017, 07:12:06 AM »
I would love if humanity got it and turned this freight train around. If it doesn't happen genocide is guaranteed. We are all culpable. Breathe deep, make the choice and carry on if you want to.
Chou chou...

5to10

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #148 on: March 02, 2017, 08:05:54 AM »
I would love if humanity got it and turned this freight train around. If it doesn't happen genocide is guaranteed. We are all culpable. Breathe deep, make the choice and carry on if you want to.
Chou chou...

I will go down trying everything I can for what feels right.

I know most people would do the same, if they TRULY understood the fundamental choice we have, and the imminent risk. Both are widely hidden still.

The fear, the disillusion.. Do not let it win.


I had a thought today - Picture our ability to find and implement solutions, and our awareness itself as affected by a system that has some manner of feedbacks much like climate.

Simplify it. At this point we are somewhat around a slightly positive overall trend towards heightened awareness. Slowly, we learn. Slowly, we unlock the answers and see the solutions. Many negative feedbacks exist (Media, lying politicians etc)

What if we ramped up the positive feedbacks and removed the negatives (all that divides and confuses)?

Is it not fair to say that we could be making WAY faster, way more impactful progress TOGETHER? Who knows how fast the answers will come if we can accomplish this.

Have hope, please! Keep trying. We have a chance to right this.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 08:10:56 AM by 5to10 »

TerryM

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Re: 2017 open thread
« Reply #149 on: March 02, 2017, 10:28:27 AM »
It's rather hard these days to be both well informed and completely at all optimistic.

But if you mean, with Antonio Gramsci: Optimismo de la voluntad y pesimismo de la razón, then I can perhaps follow you, at least on some days.  :) :(


"Optimism of the will and pessimism of reason"


The duality of thought that I've often tried to find the words for.


My intellect screams that there is no hope. The rest of me says that 'this too shall pass', that 'every problem has a solution', and that 'it's always darkest near the dawn'.


Intelligence at war with cliches.
Intellect vs. life experience.
Knowledge against instinct.


Different mental processes produce divergent answers even though the data is equivalent. A single mind accepts the inevitable, yet it fights & struggles as though change might somehow prevail.
 
I can't believe there is any glimmer of hope, yet to do nothing, even with certainty that nothing  can possibility prevail, seems monstrous.


Terry
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 10:52:58 AM by TerryM »