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Theta

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #500 on: January 13, 2016, 03:53:27 PM »
This seems like a good place for this.

Quote
There Is a New Climate Change Disaster Looming in Northern Canada

...........For decades, mine operators in Northern Canada have stored waste rock and tailings waste—the "pulverized rock slurry" byproduct of mineral processing that's filled with skeevy chemicals like arsenic, lead, and mercury—in frozen dams reinforced with permafrost, an option far cheaper than constructing artificial structures to house the goop. But if such walls thaw, allowing air and water to interact with the highly reactive tailings, widespread "acid mine drainage" (AMD) could occur. Such a process can generate sulphuric acid and result in the leaching of heavy metals into nearby soil and water sources.

"Permafrost degradation is going to affect everything," says Magdalena Muir, research associate at the University of Calgary's Arctic Institute of North America. "When you have frozen infrastructure, you don't have to build an artificial structure and probably get used to not having to worry too much about breaches. But as soon as you have soil that behaves just like any other soil, you have all the issues you'd have in southern Canada."

The Canadian mining sector produces around one million tons of waste rock and 950,000 tons of tailings per day. As a result, the prospect of widespread AMD could be disastrous for the Canadian North: such scenarios would obviously be nightmares to contain, with the remoteness and cold climate seriously impeding cleanup. Think the Deepwater Horizon of the Arctic, except not nearly as visible and minus the dead dolphins to draw attention to the disaster. And like methane bubbling out of the permafrost, the situation only gets worse as it unfolds.

"Once a chemical process is underway—let's say, the oxidization of mining waste and leaching of heavy metals and acid drainage—it's much, much harder to stop that chemical process than just preventing it from the outset," says Ugo Lapointe, Canadian coordinator for MiningWatch. "It has its own momentum once it starts. Also, the plume of contamination downstream or underground are much harder to clean up and control once it starts, it's very, very costly."....

http://www.vice.com/read/this-is-the-looming-climate-change-disaster-in-canadas-north-that-no-one-is-talking-about

Kind of eliminates any idea of migrating north to avoid climate chaos
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Laurent

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #501 on: January 29, 2016, 08:08:31 PM »
Ancient 'dead seas' offer a stark warning for our own future
http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/2987011/ancient_dead_seas_offer_a_stark_warning_for_our_own_future.html
Quote
For long periods animals in ancient oceans could live only in shallow surface waters, above vast 'dead zones' inhabited only by anoxic bacteria, writes Richard Pancost. Human activity is now creating immense new dead zones, and global warming could be helping as it reduces vertical mixing of waters. Could this be the beginning of something big?

bligh8

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #502 on: July 28, 2019, 10:42:15 PM »
Storms not directly associated with a low pressure system that can cause wide spread power outages are currently happening today, along with a direct impact on food production. A Regime shift in rainfall totals associated with coastal low pressure systems are already causing
profound human suffering and environmental degradation all over the planet.  Increasing melt rates associated with the decrease in doubling times is happening much quicker than projected and is likely to increase SLR beyond any anticipated rates.  Sea Level rise and storms
are likely to be the final nail in the coffin of humanity…..

rboyd

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #503 on: July 28, 2019, 11:54:59 PM »
Ancient 'dead seas' offer a stark warning for our own future
http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/2987011/ancient_dead_seas_offer_a_stark_warning_for_our_own_future.html
Quote
For long periods animals in ancient oceans could live only in shallow surface waters, above vast 'dead zones' inhabited only by anoxic bacteria, writes Richard Pancost. Human activity is now creating immense new dead zones, and global warming could be helping as it reduces vertical mixing of waters. Could this be the beginning of something big?

Plus all the ice roads melting, the permafrost turning into marsh emitting CO2 and methane (highly flammable) and chaotic weather etc. Yes, the North of Canada will be a disaster zone.Northern Alberta will be even worse once the oil companies leave and all the tailing ponds are left to rot into the soil and rivers, and at the mercy of the weather (estimated cleanup cost of $350bn which nobody will be paying). Then add in widespread forest fires.

gerontocrat

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #504 on: July 29, 2019, 12:18:07 AM »
Ancient 'dead seas' offer a stark warning for our own future
http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/2987011/ancient_dead_seas_offer_a_stark_warning_for_our_own_future.html
Quote
For long periods animals in ancient oceans could live only in shallow surface waters, above vast 'dead zones' inhabited only by anoxic bacteria, writes Richard Pancost. Human activity is now creating immense new dead zones, and global warming could be helping as it reduces vertical mixing of waters. Could this be the beginning of something big?

Plus all the ice roads melting, the permafrost turning into marsh emitting CO2 and methane (highly flammable) and chaotic weather etc. Yes, the North of Canada will be a disaster zone.Northern Alberta will be even worse once the oil companies leave and all the tailing ponds are left to rot into the soil and rivers, and at the mercy of the weather (estimated cleanup cost of $350bn which nobody will be paying). Then add in widespread forest fires.

Somewhere on the ASIF are posts on how little real cash hs been put aside to clean up the tar sands fields. I am depressed enough already so am not going to look for them.

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"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #505 on: July 29, 2019, 09:56:12 PM »

gerontocrat

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #506 on: July 31, 2019, 10:41:35 AM »
This is how bad it is right now:
https://www.businessinsider.sg/summer-heat-waves-wildfires-link-to-climate-change-2019-7/
This is how bad it is right now (contd):

Add man's greed, stupidity and inhumanity and you get - Honduras.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jul/31/honduras-community-coastal-towns-rising-sea-le
It won’t be long’: why a Honduran community will soon be under water
Rising sea levels are destroying coastal towns in Honduras – and shrimp farms which export to the UK and US are making it worse

by Nina Lakhani in Cedeño, Choluteca
Quote
Eric Pineda runs a modest beachfront restaurant which serves up plates of fresh fish and rice – and faces imminent destruction.

A recent tidal surge razed the nightclub next door, leaving a pastel pink ruin, and in the past two years, several other businesses between Pineda’s property and the Pacific Ocean have been destroyed by sudden waves.

“Every year, the ocean is getting closer and higher. I think we’ve got a year – maybe two – before the water takes us too,” said Pineda, 24. “It won’t be long.”

Sea levels are rising around the world, but in this region another local factor is helping speed up coastal degradation: swathes of mangrove forests have been destroyed to make way for industrial shrimp farms which have proliferated even inside protected reserves.

Many Honduran shrimps are exported to the US and the UK, where they are sold in major supermarket chains including Waitrose, Sainsbury’s and Marks & Spencer.

“The industry destroys huge mangrove sites promising development, but actually creates very few jobs – and actually increases poverty by restricting fishing access for locals,” said Dina Morel, director of a local marine conservation organization, known by its acronym Coddeffagolf.

According to Morel, shrimp farms are routinely approved in protected areas and environmental violations rarely punished as officials often have vested interests in the profitable industry.

“The consequences of losing this essential ecosystem are clear,” said biologist Victor Bocanegra. “Environmental vulnerability, food insecurity, poverty, and social decomposition, which all leads to forced migration.”

Mangroves are essential to healthy, resilient coastlines. The sturdy trees protect shorelines from storms and floods, and help prevent erosion by stabilizing sediments with their intertwined roots.

etc etc until

Pedro Landa from Eric, a Jesuits human rights research organisation, said the lessons from (hurricane) Mitch were never learned. “Since the [2009] coup, the state has been increasingly controlled by mafia politicians with no interest in guaranteeing water supplies or economic development for ordinary people, just for themselves.”

Conclusion by a local...
“Basically we’re fucked.”
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

kassy

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #507 on: July 31, 2019, 07:02:08 PM »
Since the [2009] coup, the state has been increasingly controlled by mafia politicians with no interest in guaranteeing water supplies or economic development for ordinary people, just for themselves.”


The mafia politicians are not just doing it for themselves. Banana republic once again.

Mangroves are one type of tree we very much need to keep since it helps so much. In fact it should be one of the top priority trees to replant now but greed will be in the way.

Of course most of the feed for fish farms is still being robbed from the seas so you cannot grow them forever since nature needs to eat too...

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #508 on: August 02, 2019, 02:00:44 AM »

bluice

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #509 on: August 06, 2019, 04:38:12 PM »
I've read most posts on this thread which date to 2013 and 2014. Pretty interesting to see how the predictions came to be or didn't. There hasn't been a BOE but then again somebody in 2014 correctly expected the next El Nino to finish the (nonexistent) warming hiatus and take us into uncharted territory.

Obviously end was not so nigh that even after all these years we are still here posting. Which brings us on topic. There's lot of discussions of the looming ecological disaster which will bring down the civilization. The more I think of it the more I'm convinced that the disaster is not looming but ongoing. We are just so used to see things in human timescales that we often miss it. AGW, mass extinction, ocean acidification, habitat loss, chemical and nutrient pollution, overpopulation etc etc are all twisted in a web of interlinking environmental changes that is transforming the planet deeper into the anthropocene.

All this is happening in a timescale that is just a blink of an eye geologically, but still so slow that we see it as series of separate events while waiting for The Big One to come. It is difficult for us to comprehend that THIS is the new normal. Our children will live their lives on a different world than where we were born, and unfortunately the new world is unlikely to be better than the old one.

Societies on the other hand aren't geological but human constructions and as such they are the ones where we can expect to see abrupt transformations. As environmental pressure gradually increases the human realm is likely to see war, poverty, chaos and genocide. This also is already happening, in places such as Somalia, Syria and Yemen.

As William Gibson's has famously said: "The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed"

nanning

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #510 on: August 06, 2019, 06:00:53 PM »
Spot on bluice!

" the new world is unlikely to be better than the old one."
We know it will be a lot worse don't you think?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

bluice

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #511 on: August 06, 2019, 06:54:22 PM »
Not really, because we don’t know what the future brings. We can make estimates and build scenarios but we are never certain what will happen. I do think it’s highly likely though

Actually the only certain thing about future is that something completely unexpected will happen.

Klondike Kat

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #512 on: August 06, 2019, 09:46:50 PM »
Not really, because we don’t know what the future brings. We can make estimates and build scenarios but we are never certain what will happen. I do think it’s highly likely though

Actually the only certain thing about future is that something completely unexpected will happen.

Exactly!  Just when we think we have it figured out, nature throws us a curve.

bluice

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #513 on: August 06, 2019, 10:14:53 PM »

Exactly!  Just when we think we have it figured out, nature throws us a curve.
Yes, but the curve can go either way.

Klondike Kat

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #514 on: August 06, 2019, 11:09:29 PM »

Exactly!  Just when we think we have it figured out, nature throws us a curve.
Yes, but the curve can go either way.

No doubt.

nanning

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #515 on: August 10, 2019, 06:45:45 PM »
Sorry, but I don't understand your replies, bluice and klondike Kat.
Could you please spell out a scenario where the future would be better? Which curve is that?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

bluice

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #516 on: August 12, 2019, 10:04:44 AM »
Sorry, but I don't understand your replies, bluice and klondike Kat.
Could you please spell out a scenario where the future would be better? Which curve is that?
Well maybe we have overlooked something in the climate science that will significantly lower ECS.
Maybe there will be a major volcanic eruption cooling the climate for a couple of decades giving us more time to correct our ways.
Maybe there's an unknown negative feedback delaying AGW for a century or two. Blink of an eye geologically, enormous in human timescales.
Maybe somebody invents a workable geoengineering solution.
Maybe the ongoing eco-disaster is slow enough for people to adapt to it.
Maybe we invent an AI that solves all our problems.
Maybe we are contacted by friendly extraterrestrial intelligence :)

Granted, likelihood of such events is very small and no reasonable person would base policy on such. However one of the most important lessons from history is that future never brings what people expected it to.

Remember, Cold War never turned to nuclear exchange and MAD. Oil crisis still hasn't destroyed modern civilization and the sky hasn't yet fallen on us.

nanning

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #517 on: August 12, 2019, 06:30:25 PM »
"Granted, likelihood of such events is very small and no reasonable person would base policy on such"

From observation: That is exactly the base our governments base their policies on. Thank you for writing it down ;).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

petm

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #518 on: August 12, 2019, 06:39:29 PM »
I'm trying to figure out whether you're implying that governments tend to make rational policy, or are poking fun at them for not doing so...

My vote is also for ET. (Do we get to vote?)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 06:51:26 PM by petm »

VideoGameVet

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #519 on: August 12, 2019, 06:45:49 PM »
Sorry, but I don't understand your replies, bluice and klondike Kat.
Could you please spell out a scenario where the future would be better? Which curve is that?
Well maybe we have overlooked something in the climate science that will significantly lower ECS.
Maybe there will be a major volcanic eruption cooling the climate for a couple of decades giving us more time to correct our ways.
Maybe there's an unknown negative feedback delaying AGW for a century or two. Blink of an eye geologically, enormous in human timescales.
Maybe somebody invents a workable geoengineering solution.
Maybe the ongoing eco-disaster is slow enough for people to adapt to it.
Maybe we invent an AI that solves all our problems.
Maybe we are contacted by friendly extraterrestrial intelligence :)

Granted, likelihood of such events is very small and no reasonable person would base policy on such. However one of the most important lessons from history is that future never brings what people expected it to.

Remember, Cold War never turned to nuclear exchange and MAD. Oil crisis still hasn't destroyed modern civilization and the sky hasn't yet fallen on us.

Past performance is no guarantee of Future Returns.  Besides the feedback loops, not included in the models, are in effect now.
"Humans went to the moon on purpose. We destroyed an entire planet by just not caring."

nanning

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #520 on: August 12, 2019, 07:30:33 PM »
I'm trying to figure out whether you're implying that governments tend to make rational policy, or are poking fun at them for not doing so...

My vote is also for ET. (Do we get to vote?)
Hi petm, given that no government is in any way having rational policies today (in my view); all ignoring the increasingly alarming warnings of scientists. The possible scenarios that bluice wrote down seem close to the ideas behind current failing precautionary policies of all governments. It wasn't meant funny. I think it isn't funny and the further the proverbial can is down the road, the larger the crevasse between current policies and effective policies. Leadership and responsibility? nah.

Indeed, it could very well be E.T. that's in the expectation of the ones behind the people steering our policians and elections.

I'd like to vote on this.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

El Cid

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #521 on: August 12, 2019, 07:35:43 PM »
Sorry, but I don't understand your replies, bluice and klondike Kat.
Could you please spell out a scenario where the future would be better? Which curve is that?

The Future IS better. Every single year since WW2 has seen a growing life expectancy, smaller child mortality, improving lifestyles for more and more people in this world. More and more countries are democratic, women can vote, there is no more child labour, no slavery, no 6*12 workweeks, less and less war deaths, even the homicide rate is collapsing.

Compare our present to the middle ages: 6 of your 9 children would have died before 10 (or rather 5 ), you'd have no teeth by the age of 40 if you were lucky to live that long, toiling every day from dawn till dusk.

Seriously people, what is wrong with you???

Klondike Kat

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #522 on: August 12, 2019, 07:40:19 PM »
Sorry, but I don't understand your replies, bluice and klondike Kat.
Could you please spell out a scenario where the future would be better? Which curve is that?

The Future IS better. Every single year since WW2 has seen a growing life expectancy, smaller child mortality, improving lifestyles for more and more people in this world. More and more countries are democratic, women can vote, there is no more child labour, no slavery, no 6*12 workweeks, less and less war deaths, even the homicide rate is collapsing.

Compare our present to the middle ages: 6 of your 9 children would have died before 10 (or rather 5 ), you'd have no teeth by the age of 40 if you were lucky to live that long, toiling every day from dawn till dusk.

Seriously people, what is wrong with you???

Hard to argue with solid logic.

Bruce Steele

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #523 on: August 12, 2019, 08:04:40 PM »
The future's so bright I gotta wear shades.
  We eat the profits of our oil bonanza . As long as oil holds out we all get fed. As long as we keep burning fossil fuels the planet continues to heat . As long as we don't look any further down the road we can just party on .
   
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 10:27:39 PM by Bruce Steele »

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #525 on: August 12, 2019, 09:09:25 PM »
Sorry, but I don't understand your replies, bluice and klondike Kat.
Could you please spell out a scenario where the future would be better? Which curve is that?

The Future IS better. Every single year since WW2 has seen a growing life expectancy, smaller child mortality, improving lifestyles for more and more people in this world. More and more countries are democratic, women can vote, there is no more child labour, no slavery, no 6*12 workweeks, less and less war deaths, even the homicide rate is collapsing.

Compare our present to the middle ages: 6 of your 9 children would have died before 10 (or rather 5 ), you'd have no teeth by the age of 40 if you were lucky to live that long, toiling every day from dawn till dusk.

Seriously people, what is wrong with you???

It is so funny how people swallow these lies.

There is the largest underclass in the history of the planet at the moment. There are literally about 4 billion people who live in abject poverty, and who are literally the definition of slaves, even though we don't call them slaves anymore. Getting rid of the notion of slavery has allowed the essence of slavery to expand and encompass billions of new humans.

What is "democracy" anyways? Is it legitimizing governance by a handful of elites so that they can do as they please without risk of violent revolt (or severely reducing said risk)? Or is it equalizing opportunity etc? It is definitely not the latter.

I would also argue that the sheer scale of the slave and working classes in the developed and developing worlds negate the benefits you speak of re: mortality etc. Great, Americans live to 80 on average -- so a slave now has to work for 70 years of their life instead of 10-20. What a great life, how productive, how amazing!

It is insane to see people swallow the double-think presented by the media / etc as "good" when these innovations have been God-awful for about 90% of planet Earth's human population. A long life with children who don't die isn't necessarily better than a short life with children that do die if said humans are trapped in eternal slavery, a state where refusal to work or taking a day off results in their termination and potential death. How benevolent we are, how lucky they are, to live in modern society! LOLOLOLOLOL

El Cid

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #526 on: August 12, 2019, 10:59:44 PM »
bbr,

which ones are lies?

prove

TerryM

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #527 on: August 13, 2019, 12:51:06 AM »
I don't think anyone claimed that the present was overly bright. 8)


Staring into the future without Bruce's hopefull(y) rose hued bifocals might cause corneal damage from a flash peeking out from beneath a mushroom cloud, the flush radiating from our then irrevocably overheated orb or reflections from the deep blush we'll sport when we realize that our generation could have done something to alter the path that we're on.


The middle ages were terrible if you had the misfortune of growing up in Europe. The Chinese on the other hand began it by the ascendancy of the Tang Dynasty who governed through a Confucian Meritocracy, lived under a universal legal code, built the Grand Canal, a massive undertaking that linked North and South China and allowed even the poor to travel and trade throughout the realm.


The Chinese invented block printing at this time. Their physicians developed smallpox vaccinations, everyone could advance through education. When their chemists invented gunpowder it was utilized in firecrackers, sparklers and fireworks, something even the poorest of the poor could enjoy.


From a Eurocentric perspective the centuries leading to the 2nd millenium might seem a mean time indeed, but for much of the world it was a great time to be alive!
Tang dynasty - 618 to 907 Current Era.


"Widening our perspective may alter our conclusions" - something Confucius probably should have said. 8)
Terry

wili

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #528 on: August 13, 2019, 02:17:37 AM »
For most people in Europe, most of the Middle Ages was an improvement in many ways over the Roman Empire.

But all this is basically irrelevant.

Past trends aren't proof of what will come in the future. (Do we really have to state such a blindingly obvious truth?) 

We are heading toward 4 - 8 C increases in global temperatures in this century, and more in the following ones. That is a pretty rock solid guarantee for ecological catastrophe for nearly all species.

(Again, I am a bit bewildered that we have to state these abecedarian truths here.)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 02:31:44 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

bbr2314

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #529 on: August 13, 2019, 02:30:44 AM »
For most people in Europe, most of the Middle Ages was a big improvement in many ways over the Roman Empire.

But all this is basically irrelevant.

Past trends aren't proof of what will come in the future. (Do we really have to state such a blindingly obvious truth?) 

We are heading toward 4 - 8 C increases in global temperatures in this century, and more in the following ones. That is a pretty rock solid guarantee for ecological catastrophe for nearly all species.

(Again, I am a bit bewildered that we have to state these abecedarian truths here.)
Are you on drugs? Life in the Roman Empire was about as civilized as it is today minus the mass consumerism and information technology. Even in the Middle Ages I would wager that the % of Europeans who were able to experience a life of liberty was substantially HIGHER than it is today.

wili

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #530 on: August 13, 2019, 02:33:33 AM »
Read some (recently written) history, my drug addled friend! :)

Slavery generally declined in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. There was no more Empire to efficiently collect taxes. Roman law was not very nice to women...the list goes on and on.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11415022/The-best-thing-the-Romans-did-for-Britain-was-leave-historian-claims.html

The best thing the Romans did for Britain was leave, historian claims


On average Britons lived for two years longer after the fall of the Roman Empire

Quote
Asked if the fall of the Roman Empire was good for Britain, Prof Fleming added: “If you are a villa owner, no. But if you are part of the 97 per cent of the rest, then, yes, it might add a couple of years to your life which makes a difference.

“The people were living longer after Roman Britain because they weren’t being taxed
. “
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

bbr2314

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #531 on: August 13, 2019, 02:41:30 AM »
Read some (recently written) history, my drug addled friend! :)

Slavery generally declined in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. There was no more Empire to efficiently collect taxes. Roman law was not very nice to women...the list goes on and on.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11415022/The-best-thing-the-Romans-did-for-Britain-was-leave-historian-claims.html

The best thing the Romans did for Britain was leave, historian claims


On average Britons lived for two years longer after the fall of the Roman Empire

Quote
Asked if the fall of the Roman Empire was good for Britain, Prof Fleming added: “If you are a villa owner, no. But if you are part of the 97 per cent of the rest, then, yes, it might add a couple of years to your life which makes a difference.

“The people were living longer after Roman Britain because they weren’t being taxed
. “

I think you are living in a parallel universe where words mean more than realities. You would also say that slavery is almost non-existent today despite the fact that the vast majority of people would starve and die if they did not show up to work tomorrow. That historical anecdote is merely that, an anecdote.

Klondike Kat

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #532 on: August 13, 2019, 02:58:18 AM »
Read some (recently written) history, my drug addled friend! :)

Slavery generally declined in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. There was no more Empire to efficiently collect taxes. Roman law was not very nice to women...the list goes on and on.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11415022/The-best-thing-the-Romans-did-for-Britain-was-leave-historian-claims.html

The best thing the Romans did for Britain was leave, historian claims


On average Britons lived for two years longer after the fall of the Roman Empire

Quote
Asked if the fall of the Roman Empire was good for Britain, Prof Fleming added: “If you are a villa owner, no. But if you are part of the 97 per cent of the rest, then, yes, it might add a couple of years to your life which makes a difference.

“The people were living longer after Roman Britain because they weren’t being taxed
. “

I think you are living in a parallel universe where words mean more than realities. You would also say that slavery is almost non-existent today despite the fact that the vast majority of people would starve and die if they did not show up to work tomorrow. That historical anecdote is merely that, an anecdote.

Precious few people are wealthy enough that they can continue to eat, if they stopped working.  However, that number is much higher today (and they would survive longer) than in years gone by.

DrTskoul

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #533 on: August 13, 2019, 03:03:30 AM »
They are not that precious

TerryM

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #534 on: August 13, 2019, 03:06:50 AM »

wili

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #535 on: August 13, 2019, 04:43:02 AM »
Once again, bbr is sure he knows the right answer, though he presents no data to support it. It is useless to debate further with such. If others want to talk about history who are not so utterly blinkered, I'm happy to oblige.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

bbr2314

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #536 on: August 13, 2019, 04:52:50 AM »
Read some (recently written) history, my drug addled friend! :)

Slavery generally declined in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. There was no more Empire to efficiently collect taxes. Roman law was not very nice to women...the list goes on and on.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11415022/The-best-thing-the-Romans-did-for-Britain-was-leave-historian-claims.html

The best thing the Romans did for Britain was leave, historian claims


On average Britons lived for two years longer after the fall of the Roman Empire

Quote
Asked if the fall of the Roman Empire was good for Britain, Prof Fleming added: “If you are a villa owner, no. But if you are part of the 97 per cent of the rest, then, yes, it might add a couple of years to your life which makes a difference.

“The people were living longer after Roman Britain because they weren’t being taxed
. “

I think you are living in a parallel universe where words mean more than realities. You would also say that slavery is almost non-existent today despite the fact that the vast majority of people would starve and die if they did not show up to work tomorrow. That historical anecdote is merely that, an anecdote.

Precious few people are wealthy enough that they can continue to eat, if they stopped working.  However, that number is much higher today (and they would survive longer) than in years gone by.
I am talking as a relative % of the population, I think you are talking raw numbers. As a relative % of the population, we are at the worst-ever moment in history right now, IMO.

Remember, before urbanization, most humans WERE self-sufficient in terms of food production. A peasant's life in Medieval Europe was probably better than a factory or IT worker's life today, IMO.

petm

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« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 05:06:30 AM by petm »

bbr2314

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #538 on: August 13, 2019, 05:28:23 AM »
These graphs mean nothing. They are produced by elites (The World Bank) to further the notion that inequality has not worsened and that most people are not slaves. The best way to make a slave angry is to tell them they are a slave -- instead of the modern BS about working class blah blah blah.

Under 5% of China lives in "extreme poverty"? What kind of definition is this? I would say 95-98% of Chinese are the modern equivalent of slaves.

"Extreme poverty" is a made up term, and has no bearing on actual quality of life. Enabling someone to live to 80 so they can work til they die DOES NOT IMPROVE THEIR QUALITY OF LIFE.

Rod

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #539 on: August 13, 2019, 05:35:43 AM »
I’m not taking sides in this discussion, but this was an article that really pissed me off today! 

Lowe's spent billions on share buybacks, zero on severance for laid-off workers

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Lowe's is laying off thousands of workers after hiking quarterly dividends and spending billions to repurchase company shares.
The home improvement chain isn't offering severance to laid-off workers, some of whom have been at Lowe's for a decade or more.
Lowe's last December announced plans to buy back $10 billion worth of stock, according to TrimTabs Investment Research.

Quote
The sudden job losses are hitting some workers hard. "I'm behind in my house note and my property taxes," said Patricia Wilkerson, 59, of Dayton, Texas, who said she got no notice before losing her part-time, seasonal position at Lowe's and is receiving no severance. "Corporations are stretching people trying to get more with less."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lowes-layoffs-2019-retailer-spent-billions-on-share-buybacks-zero-on-severance-for-laid-off-workers/



petm

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #540 on: August 13, 2019, 05:37:18 AM »
I would say 95-98% of Chinese are the modern equivalent of slaves.

Do you have any data to back up your claims?

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/23/14062168/history-global-conditions-charts-life-span-poverty

petm

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #541 on: August 13, 2019, 05:40:37 AM »
Lowe's spent billions on share buybacks, zero on severance for laid-off workers

Yeah, money grabs are accelerating.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/08/the-stock-buyback-swindle/592774/

bbr2314

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #542 on: August 13, 2019, 05:42:47 AM »
Do you have any data to back up your claims?

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/23/14062168/history-global-conditions-charts-life-span-poverty
Why would they produce data showing that most people are slaves? That would undermine one of the key tenets of the global slave state which is that they (and you) are blithely ignorant of the conditions they live in and how terrible they are.

We live in a world like 1984 except the governments are all run by the same people. This has plusses and minuses, but I would say the negatives outweigh the positives for the bottom 95% of the population relative to conditions 100+ years ago.

You are ignoring my key point: what is the advantage of literacy, extended lifespan, arbitrary metrics, if the VAST MAJORITY of the planet is in fact dependent on wage slavery (aka, they are slaves), and is in fact NOT FREE? What is the advantage of literacy if it is used to teach obedience instead of free-thinking? North Korea has 100% literacy, does that make it a paradise, or does that make it a place where all of its slaves (99% of the population) are more susceptible to brainwashing than they would have been had they been unable to take in the state-driven propaganda machine?

I feel as though I am trying to reach proles / plebes and it is failing. This is not your fault, you have been indoctrinated your entire lives to believe in lies, and perhaps this is for the best, for the truth is a terrible thing.

wili

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #543 on: August 13, 2019, 05:49:53 AM »
petm, you silly fool! You want data? Data? That is only for fools!!!

We must always believe every word and every syllable and every phoneme that bbr utters or types, because s/he has the TRUE and ULTIMATE TRUTH in the PALM of his F'ng HAND!!!!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

This is actually far beyond what parody can reach.

Best to all in a very uncertain world! :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

bbr2314

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #544 on: August 13, 2019, 05:51:50 AM »
petm, you silly fool! You want data? Data? That is only for fools!!!

We must always believe every word and every syllable and every phoneme that bbr utters or types, because s/he has the TRUE and ULTIMATE TRUTH in the PALM of his F'ng HAND!!!!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

This is actually far beyond what parody can reach.

Best to all in a very uncertain world! :)

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, that is the beauty of our despotic state,  ;)

petm

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #545 on: August 13, 2019, 06:06:39 AM »
Why would they produce data showing that most people are slaves? That would undermine one of the key tenets of the global slave state which is that they (and you) are blithely ignorant of the conditions they live in and how terrible they are.

Who are they? There are a lot of academics who study poverty, slavery, and every other imaginable topic. Most are liberals just seeking truth, not servants to evil corporate overlords (although some are). Not that academics always or ever get all the way to truth, but some of them get part of the way there. I agree wholeheartedly with skepticism, but completely ignoring evidence is not skepticism, but something else entirely.

Quote
You are ignoring my key point: what is the advantage of literacy, extended lifespan, arbitrary metrics, if the VAST MAJORITY of the planet is in fact dependent on wage slavery (aka, they are slaves), and is in fact NOT FREE?

Never having myself been a slave, I don't feel qualified to evaluate this judgement even for my own purposes. Nevertheless from what I understand about slavery, I think actual slaves might well disagree. Having to work is nothing new; inequality is nothing new. I do agree that inequality is increasing now (at least in the developed world), but only relative to the last century, not the last millennium.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 06:13:49 AM by petm »

GoodeWeather

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #546 on: August 13, 2019, 06:21:33 AM »

[/quote]
I am talking as a relative % of the population, I think you are talking raw numbers. As a relative % of the population, we are at the worst-ever moment in history right now, IMO.

Remember, before urbanization, most humans WERE self-sufficient in terms of food production. A peasant's life in Medieval Europe was probably better than a factory or IT worker's life today, IMO.
[/quote]

Indoor plumbing is the only argument needed to prove this statement vastly false. 🤣

KiwiGriff

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #547 on: August 13, 2019, 07:06:17 AM »
Quote
most humans WERE self-sufficient in terms of food production
Working dawn to dusk year round in an effort to provide sufficient food and energy for your own consumption, pay the landlord his tax and a little to trade for that you can not provide your self is far harder grind than the eight to five five days a week .
In Europe most were serfs of some sort.  little more than slaves, chattels of the land, able to be brought and sold at the whim of the local manor.
There was no mythical  garden of Eden in mans past.
We, modern man, have it better than any time since the first naked apes stopped living in trees.
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

nanning

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #548 on: August 13, 2019, 07:06:48 AM »
Quote
<snip>
Remember, before urbanization, most humans WERE self-sufficient in terms of food production. A peasant's life in Medieval Europe was probably better than a factory or IT worker's life today, IMO.
I know it's unpopular at the moment but I agree with bbr2314 on this.
It's not about romanticizing the past but appreciating what quality of life means.
It is easy to come up with a list of how bad it was for those people, compared to today. I just think they were more happy, more intimate and receiving more cooperation and shared experiences, outside, an intenser life. And of course their natural surroundings were of staggering beauty compared to today. All food was organic etc. etc.
This post is not meant to start a long discussion  :P ::)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

oren

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Re: When and how bad?
« Reply #549 on: August 13, 2019, 08:55:57 AM »
Arguing with bbr. I guess it's a pastime I grew out of.