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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #100 on: April 20, 2017, 07:03:14 PM »
It's too bad Warren says she won't run for president in 2020. I'll watch that interview, although I find it very difficult to watch Maddow nowadays.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #101 on: April 20, 2017, 07:59:59 PM »
Warren is up for reelection in 2018. The election is a critical one, without her the CFPB would have been gutted long ago. The banks hate her, whoever her opponent is will have the big, big bucks. If reelected she is in the Senate till 2024. I think she is as valuable or more valuable in the Senate than as president.

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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #102 on: April 20, 2017, 08:05:28 PM »
"But refusing to collaborate with people of goodwill who work within the system is, I'm convinced, a way to encourage strife and lose the bigger battles."

Agreed. Who are these people ? I suspect your list is different from mine.

I am willing to work with some and not with other Democrats. Unthinking lockstep adherence to the Party line is not for me. (And similarly, I am willing to work with some Republicans, but that's not germane to this thread.)

sidd

gerontocrat

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #103 on: April 20, 2017, 08:11:09 PM »
Corporate Democrats and Corporate Republicans both go ski-ing in Aspen. I am reminded of a boozy conversation in Calcutta many years go with a businessman who explained why he bribed both Communist and Congress politicians.

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #104 on: April 20, 2017, 09:06:46 PM »
Neven, it's mostly pure Warren, just skip over the Maddow bits. But what's with condemning a strong intelligent woman?  Maddow does overdramatize and comes across as too didactic, I agree. Her reporting is head and shoulders above most for a moderately mainstream outlet.

Warren is not saying she won't run, she's tired of being asked and doesn't want to discuss it and that's the only way she can get people to shut up. Meanwhile, she needs to be re-elected to the Senate (I think that will be a runaway). She said her choice not to run in 2016 was because her husband asked her not to.

Sidd, while I'm sure he stands for what we all agree would be ideal, represents an extreme of dislike for hardworking Democrats. I opine he overdoes it. I did make a plea for not expending energy on hating moderates, and will continue to do so but am done here for now, being disgusted with the poisonous attacks on people I respect. In a pluralistic society, compromise will always be necessary to get things done. Otherwise, we have isolation, loss, war, and death.
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sidd:
Shiv: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shiv

Slime (climate deniers have called me slime; others mostly don't use the term) http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slime

You jailin' man?
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People who actually want to know as opposed to hating on people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Dean

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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #105 on: April 20, 2017, 11:20:31 PM »
Dean flipped on health care and is a pharma shill these days. Tanden has form, suppressed oppositon to Israel at CAP, advocated seizing oil from Libya and Iraq, and is part of the very corporate power structure we are discussing here. Some of us can stomach working with people like these. I cannot, and I will work against them.

sidd

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #106 on: April 21, 2017, 01:02:40 AM »
As I have previously remarked, part of the answer is supporting with noncorp Democrats. Take Warren for example, although she faces no credible democratic challenger in 2018, i do not think her re-election is a lock. That's the kind of thinking that gave us Trump and I must admit that I succumbed as well, I could not imagine that even a flawed candidate like Hillary Clinton and the DNC could screw up a campaign as badly as to lose to a grifter like Trump. But she did. Losing Warren from the Senate would be a severe blow.

I attach links to an article about various people who might run, and another to the results of a lukewarm poll. The Republican candidate will have unlimited funds. After the last debacle, i dont trust the Democratic Party to run a lemonade stand, Warren would do well to rely on Party support as little as possible, and get her own people out on the ground as early as possible. Send her some love and money if you are able.

http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/elizabeth-warren-slips-re-election-bid/2017/01/23/id/769959/
http://www.lowellsun.com/news/ci_30857864/mass-fiscal-alliance-head-wont-challenge-warren

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #107 on: April 21, 2017, 08:26:14 AM »
Sherrod Brown is another anticorp Senator from Ohio up in 2018 whose loss would be a bad thing.  It's the same rodeo as in 2012, Josh Mandel, climate denialist, is running again, has buncha money already from out of state PACs, much probably from banks because Brown is strong supporter of Warren. I would love to think he can do it again, but can't afford to lose him, he can use help.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #108 on: April 21, 2017, 04:42:54 PM »
Democrats cheer for Sanders, then boo Perez.


I really think this is out of our hands. If the DNC doesn't clean up it's act we can expect Trump to be around for his full eight years.


Sanders will be 78 when the next presidential election is held, if he's alive he may be drooling. The next time Democrats meet will they Boo Perez, then walk out when his chosen candidate is presented?
You can't abandon everything your base wants, then expect their support because the other guy is even worse.


"Lets get behind Goebbels because that Hitler guy is crazy."


Terry

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #109 on: April 21, 2017, 05:35:00 PM »
Hatred is corrosive.

It's easy to trash talk, hard to do things. I reject the trash talk. It is inaccurate and degrades the truth.

The broad characterization of cheering crowds as being the ne plus ultra of evaluation is nonsense.

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #110 on: April 21, 2017, 06:32:09 PM »
Hatred is corrosive.

It's easy to trash talk, hard to do things. I reject the trash talk. It is inaccurate and degrades the truth.

The broad characterization of cheering crowds as being the ne plus ultra of evaluation is nonsense.


I'm in a hateful mood this AM


Last night I had dinner with a delightful Serbian girl who just finished her education at Oxford. I mistakenly asked if she had witnessed any of the bombing.


Aged 12 she had followed her sister & her sister's beau, (a conscript), to a romantic peak where they could look down at the nightly bombing of the city in the valley.


The troops had been billeted at a local pub, not the best plan, and were partying with all the local damsels and their "brothers". One of the inebriates hit a switch that energized an ancient radar they had procured, and within minutes a vengeful missile destroyed the pub, and it's inhabitants.


They never found any pieces of her other siblings, and when she returned to the village school it was apparent that all her classmates had been partying at the pub. The school was there, the teacher arrived, no one missing but the students.


Her remaining, now nuclear family, changed religion, no more of those evil icons, all power to the Pope. Then emigrated to Canada.


She studied film making, her IQ assuring a scholarship at Oxford. I wonder what movies she will make or influence.


We're invited to her home next weekend to view portions of her film collection. I'm almost afraid of what I will see.


Hatefully Yours
Terry

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #111 on: April 21, 2017, 06:50:50 PM »
There you go. You needed somebody to bash and I'm "it".

Your Serbian woman sounds delightful, good for her. Hatred elected Trump and the monstrous Republicans. Fighting with allies elected him. Refusing plurality elected him.

I note Republicans are celebrating the distorted reports of that event. "societies die when cruelty masquerades as common sense"

As the rally’s hundreds of attendees waited for Sanders, the grumbling sometimes crashed into view. After the State’s stage filled with volunteers, mostly young, a heckler yelled “Why aren’t the Bernie delegates up there?” (Some of the senator’s 2016 delegates were in a special seating area, with VIP badges.) A local Democratic Party leader said that the “the new chair,” meaning Perez, would be arriving soon — there were a handful of boos. A state senator told the crowd that the political system was rigged; a heckler yelled, “like the primary!”

But those sentiments were largely drowned out by active Democrats, who cheered for local Rep. Chellie Pingree (D-Me.) — a former president of the progressive Common Cause, and a supporter of single-payer health care. Pingree roused the crowd in boos for Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos, the fight to repeal the Affordable Care Act, and a president who was “dropping bombs and making threats on Twitter” while blocking Syrian refugees from the country.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/04/17/perez-sanders-tour-kicks-off-amid-progressive-skepticism/

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #112 on: April 21, 2017, 07:38:35 PM »
Possibly a different event?


https://youtu.be/7JRItFPtRaY


The following video has a 1:48 version of what followed that I haven't viewed in it's entirety.


And yes, the Serbian girl is a jewel. it's unusual for a 70+ couple to form such a strong bond with someone so young, in such a short space of time.
We watch the evening news and see the missiles fly into the night, seldom comprehending the pain they inflict.


Her fathers family was decimated by the Germans, now she and her sister are all that remain of a once large clan. She said that her grandfather never hated the Germans, although they killed his wife and all but one of his children. He apparently was never able to discipline the survivor, or even take a whip to a horse afterwards though.
She's aware that my wife is American, and somehow it doesn't matter.


I'm done venting. Somehow I had to share this.
Terry


Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #113 on: April 21, 2017, 10:17:02 PM »
Oh dear, Serbia. Let's not go there. When I was young and angry I thought they had it coming to them for not standing up to psychopath Milosevic and his Bosnian cronies. But later I understood that in every group you have good people and bad people, and the good ones must not suffer for what the bad ones did. The US and NATO should have bombarded those effing cowards on the hilltops of Sarajevo bombing marketplaces. They should have prevented the Srebrenica massacre and many others. The fact that they let the atrocities go on for so long, is to this day the biggest disillusionment in my life (I was 15-16 at the time).

If the US bombs something, it's either for oil or because it's time to spend billions on new bombs.

But, let's get back on topic. Susan, re Maddow:

But what's with condemning a strong intelligent woman?


I'm not condemning the person, I'm condemning the action. If someone starts to act like Glenn Beck, I don't care if that person is a man or a woman. I don't condemn Sarah Palin because she's a strong woman, but because her actions are those of a madman.

I could tolerate her arrogance and smugness, because as you say her reporting was good and interesting, Maddow has completely lost it. What she's doing, is one of those things that is making sure that the Democrats will keep losing.

Here's why, a video titled Rachel Maddow Has LOst Her Mind & People Are Noticing:

! No longer available


Why is Maddow talking/speculating/insinuating so much about Russiagate, when there are so many other (more) pressing issues) Is she really pushing for a war with Russia? Or is that just a side effect of getting ratings and filling pockets? Either way, it's war mongering.

And as for war mongering: Recently you also said that you believe Howard Dean is a good man. I probably don't have enough information, but this footage of him made my stomach turn:

Howard Dean's Disgusting Smears Of Tulsi Gabbard Call For Peace

! No longer available


Susan, in every group there are good people and bad people. There are good and bad people in the Democratic Party. There are good and bad people in the Republican Party.

You can't side with the bad people on the blue team, because beating the red team (including the good people on that team) is all that matters.

The good people need to stand up to the bad people, irrelevant of which group they belong to.

Sidd is making an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff. It's not all or nothing. Warren is bona fide, as are Sanders and Markey. Pelosi, Schumer, Booker, Dean, Perez, Podesta, Clinton, even if they were bona fide (which they aren't, they're compromised), they are responsible for Democrats losing on all levels and should be removed. I don't know enough about US political details, but I'm sure you can get quite some ways with assessing whether politicians are really serving the needs of the people, rather than those of corporations (and I know it isn't clear-cut).

How do the Americans kick the bad people out of the Democratic Party, so that it can then take on the bad people in the Republican Party? How do they get rid of the superdelegate nonsense? How do they set up rules, or something like a Hippocratic oath (do no harm), to make sure politicians keep serving US citizens, and not just the 1%?

Don't tell me that it is now more important to get rid of Trump. That way of thinking is what got Trump there in the first place.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #114 on: April 21, 2017, 10:42:37 PM »
Ha haaa... Rachel Maddow. I'm sorry I love her even more than Bill Maher.

She's not making stuff up, but mostly summarizing things reported elsewhere. That's why I watch her for the little I follow Russiagate nowadays. Have spent 6 months watching it. Being fed up, I'm happy for Rachel doing an excellent job. Essentially there is nothing seriously new and nothing seriously newly shocking since Manafort at the Republican convention 2016. Except for details, and Rachel gets them very right. The girl has an excellent grasp of things. Oh yeah, me has a faible for lesbians.

Did you white rural inbreds know she sucks blood and has been in bed with Hillary?  ;) :-)
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #115 on: April 22, 2017, 12:15:30 AM »
"societies die when cruelty masquerades as common sense"

That's a relevant irrelevant discontinuity, I guess. I just found it in the place where I was saving my writing, so, moving on ...

====
Neven, you seem to have bought some extremist rhetoric about leaders I have known for decades and have every reason to respect. Perhaps you could take a look at my most recent Washington Post quote (and the linked article) about the meeting with Sanders and Perez where a few people booed. I know it is possible to read only material that reinforces the more angry Bernie supporters' assertions, but I thought you were more open-minded than that.

But my recent comments were meant to bring forward the amount of venom that is being sent my way as a proxy for a good few hardworking decent people I support, and the foul language being used to do so, because I dare to present alternatives.

Do you really think eliminating more than half of the existing Democratic party, who are victims not perpetrators of all the things we oppose, is a working idea (even if you're right about "corporate" Democrats, which I don't think you are)?

I don't disagree about what needs to go, but it is my opinion that you all are absolutely wrong about how this all came into being and that blaming victims is exactly what the Republicans are aiming at. It began with Reagan, and with the help of things like Rove and the Koch billionaire network, has corrupted and insinuated its way across the land for decades. This is not the doing of Democrats, not now, not ever, with a very few exceptions.

Since you are not here in the US, and have been otherwise occupied, it surprises me that you assume you know that I am absolutely wrong on this cast of characters. I didn't get really political until Reagan, but I live here. And I very much share the opinions of Elizabeth Warren, who would say the same thing I am saying about these people.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 01:10:37 AM by Susan Anderson »

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #116 on: April 22, 2017, 12:22:56 AM »
Ha haaa... Rachel Maddow. I'm sorry I love her even more than Bill Maher.
 The girl has an excellent grasp of things. Oh yeah, me has a faible for lesbians.


I've long carried a lump, (in my throat)? for lesbians, although usually for the larger, more rugged variety.
For eons I was on an almost Captain Kirk like quest. "To come where no man had come."


Terry

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #117 on: April 22, 2017, 01:35:41 AM »
1) Let me ask a (perhaps naive) question addressed to the defenders of the Democratic Party.

Is there even a single incumbent Democrat running in 2018 whom they will admit as being in the thrall of plutocracts ? And should be opposed ?

2) " ... eliminating more than half of the existing Democratic party ... "

Oh, dear, things are worse then, than I thought. Is it really the case that more than half the party are corporate Democrats ?

sidd

« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 01:48:31 AM by sidd »

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #118 on: April 22, 2017, 02:38:16 AM »
As I said, this has become very personal. If I suggest that Elizabeth Warren might be willing to work with people in order to succeed at getting things done, she is evil? I taint those I mention? Your list of "corrupt" Democrats are not corrupt. It is incredible that you are cheering each other on in labeling and condemning people who are working for us all. Sidd's condemnations are not the law and the prophets.

I've tried to get people to stop taking sides, either way.

From these all-knowing moral heights, what are you prepared to do? Hatred is poison and it distorts. To me, it looks a lot like climate science denial. The complicated truth has gone missing in favor of simple condemnation of hardworking public servants.

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #119 on: April 22, 2017, 02:57:58 AM »
"societies die when cruelty masquerades as common sense"
I would say they (from small groups upward to planetary civilization) die when bullshit masqueraded as common sense gets politically acceptable.

E.g. there is this Ryan clown. Famed for some budget proposal with asterisks. Mentioned in this thread. Now that clown is still in the Washington circus. And hasn't he had some brilliant health care plan recently? And he isn't even the worst evil clown there. Was it McConnell dingsbums? That face alone! Stupidity and corporate coal corruption carved in his bespectacled face!

I'm sorry, this thread is ridiculous. Bickering about Hillary and Goldman dingsbums - yet having the Goldman swamp 10x in the WH. Bickering about Ryan, whose intergalactic incompetence seems not noteworthy...

Aaah, that's what I wanted to say:

Civilizations fail when incompetence is no longer noteworthy.

---
P.S. Thanks, Susan, for being a beacon of Internets sanity there across the big pond. I appreciate your comments since the times of Andy Revkin's well-forgotten blog.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:04:21 AM by Martin Gisser »
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2017, 03:33:55 AM »
The Russian I-Bomb
(and how it could impact)

sorry I should go to bed or drink that Bavarian beer... Just some notes on a currently dissolving state of Zen perplexion.


, but it is my opinion that you all are absolutely wrong about how this all came into being and that blaming victims is exactly what the Republicans are aiming at. It began with Reagan, and with the help of things like Rove and the Koch billionaire network, has corrupted and insinuated its way across the land for decades. This is not the doing of Democrats, not now, not ever, with a very few exceptions.
The self-stupidification of American civilization became apparent to me (15y) with Reagan. Watched his star wars speech live on telly while on high school exchange in NJ.

The Russians had an easy well-prepared target for one of the greatest showers of bullshit the world has seen until 2016. They just needed to amplify Republican weirdo bullshit and put some fresh spice on it, exponentiate its exposure by Twitter bots and an army of high school kids as FB sock puppets... and oh, and have a presidential candidate who reads out Sputnik news at a rally before the bullshit gets deleted from the Internets...
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:42:55 AM by Martin Gisser »
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

DrTskoul

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #121 on: April 22, 2017, 04:09:21 AM »

Aaah, that's what I wanted to say:

Civilizations fail when incompetence is no longer noteworthy.


Thank you... incompetence and stupidity...

I see polarization of politics is universal...common sense less so.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. Which side of the political spectrum sees the most fragmentation In small powerless parties in Europe?? And in the US ?
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #122 on: April 22, 2017, 04:23:13 AM »
Sidd's condemnations are not the law and the prophets.
...
The complicated truth has gone missing in favor of simple condemnation of hardworking public servants.


The linked article is entitled: “Bernie Sanders defends his endorsements of red state Democrats: “Can’t exclude people who disagree with us””.  Ossoff is a centrist (not a left-wing populist) yet Bernie endorsed him.  Why?  Because Bernie is a grown-up who knows that you need to work with people that you may disagree with in order to make progress.

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/21/bernie-sanders-defends-his-endorsements-of-red-state-democrats-cant-exclude-people-who-disagree-with-us/

Extract: “Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, the face of the progressive movement in the United States and the most popular politician in the nation, is defending his decision to support two Democratic candidates this week. Sanders finally endorsed Democrat Jon Ossoff in his contested election in Georgia’s sixth congressional district, after initially hesitating to call Ossoff a progressive. The Independent senator also defended his endorsement of a Democratic candidate in Nebraska who supports restrictions on abortion access.

“Let me be very clear,” Sander said in an interview Thursday night with the Huffington Post, “It is imperative that Jon Ossoff be elected congressman from Georgia’s 6th District and that Democrats take back the U.S. House.””
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TerryM

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Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #124 on: April 22, 2017, 06:33:29 AM »
I got curious and looked up the top oil and gas recipients from the Senate in 2015-2016 at OpenSecrets. It rather surprised me. Note 17 and 19. More at: https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.php?ind=E01&cycle=2016&recipdetail=S&mem=Y&sortorder=U
I've seen some good initiatives from Bennet, and you all know Sanders. I'm surprised Inhofe isn't on the list, because a few years back he was reputed to have received $2 million from Exxon over time.

   Candidate   Amount
1   Cruz, Ted (R-TX)   $1,247,957
2   Rubio, Marco (R-FL)   $630,618
3   Murkowski, Lisa (R-AK)   $581,850
4   Portman, Rob (R-OH)   $466,308
5   Toomey, Pat (R-PA)   $374,597
6   Ayotte, Kelly (R-NH)   $356,463
7   Johnson, Ron (R-WI)   $347,960
8   Lankford, James (R-OK)   $333,050
9   Blunt, Roy (R-MO)   $299,698
10   Burr, Richard (R-NC)   $287,507
11   Hoeven, John (R-ND)   $283,655
12   Scott, Tim (R-SC)   $192,175
13   Lee, Mike (R-UT)   $175,555
14   McCain, John (R-AZ)   $174,450
15   Paul, Rand (R-KY)   $145,730
16   Boozman, John (R-AR)   $143,250
17   Bennet, Michael F (D-CO)   $138,615
18   Moran, Jerry (R-KS)   $137,775
19   Sanders, Bernie (D)   $128,187
20   Thune, John (R-SD)   $124,200

I'm going to take a break from all this, because I've been taking it too personally. I still believe we all want the same thing, and totally agree that money in government is a huge problem.

budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2017, 06:41:54 AM »
Hi Everybody:

It's been a while since I've posted. My wife and I have been vacationing and arrived back in Florida on Monday. Sounds like everyone needs to take a step back and listen instead of pontificating. I ought to know, I've done my share of that in the past! Let's all remember one thing, we're all on the same side for the most part. Best regards to all, will probably do more reading than commenting, I think. I do have one picture from our trip I'd like to share. Chances are, we will all agree on its relevance. Found it outside a saloon in Tombstone, AZ.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2017, 09:51:58 PM »

But my recent comments were meant to bring forward the amount of venom that is being sent my way as a proxy for a good few hardworking decent people I support, and the foul language being used to do so, because I dare to present alternatives.

First of all, if you feel there is venom+foul language sent your way, I want you to be more specific, because I wouldn't tolerate it. In those videos I put up, Jimmy Dore gets very worked up and uses foul language. It's not directed towards you, but to Howard Dean. I find Jimmy Dore's argument convincing, and that's what counts for me, more than some anger and foul language. For me, form almost always follows content/function.

Do you really think eliminating more than half of the existing Democratic party, who are victims not perpetrators of all the things we oppose, is a working idea (even if you're right about "corporate" Democrats, which I don't think you are)?

It's not literally eliminating, I'm not proposing a witch hunt. But I really think it's of vital importance to draw a line, send out a signal, and make clear that the same old tactics are no longer working. The American people comes first, not the donors.

Yes, the (bad) Republicans are horrible. Reagan, Rove, Kochs, I fully agree with you. But fighting them by becoming them doesn't work (ie pleasing big donors for their money to buy smearing advertising time). You can only fight them with truth, transparency and clearly formulated ideas. You call that simplistic, but sometimes things are simple. The problem of Western society is at heart very simple and of all times: Rich people getting richer without limit. People like Solon and Aristotle already knew this thousands of years ago. That's why democracy was created in the first place.

Most of what I see from the Democrats (granted, I'm a European who doesn't see everything) is empty rhetoric. For instance, the Clinton campaign has been an absolute disaster, but there is no introspection, no one gets kicked out or demoted, everyone is holding onto the soft seats.

It's of vital importance to draw a line and send out a signal, or else it's going to be more of the same (but worse).

Since you are not here in the US, and have been otherwise occupied, it surprises me that you assume you know that I am absolutely wrong on this cast of characters

I don't assume that you're wrong, but I don't have to take your opinions as gospel truth either (however much I like and respect you). When you say Howard Dean is a good man, and I see him smear someone from his own party (a veteran even, him being a draft dodger) who says that maybe the sarin gas attack should be properly investigated first before Donny tiny hands shoots of 100 million dollars worth of to-be-replaced missiles and increase tensions with Russia, I see a despicable man who is mongering war. Howard Dean condemns himself by his actions.

The same for Maddow. She's pushing for a return to the Cold War. It's simply insane and laughable, with huge backfiring potential to ensure the Democrats keep losing.

The fact that she is a strong woman or a lesbian has nothing to do with that. On the contrary, I will take women over men any day of the week. I wish we had 100 Warrens, but we're not getting them if we don't stand up.

And I very much share the opinions of Elizabeth Warren, who would say the same thing I am saying about these people.

If I suggest that Elizabeth Warren might be willing to work with people in order to succeed at getting things done, she is evil?

No, but who says she wouldn't be willing to work with other people who want to reform the DNC (making it more transparent, ending the superdelegate BS) and push a progressive agenda like Sanders is doing? I get it that they are practical as politicians, but does that mean they wouldn't prefer it if things were different?

Don't you want to beat the (bad) Republicans? Why are you so afraid that it can't be done by accepting compromising donations from the mega-wealthy? It's a self-defeating and thus losing strategy, Susan (and ASLR). We don't have time for another wishy-washy Obama/Clinton to mix beautiful speeches and symbolism with pushing TPP, fracking, prisons, wars, massive surveillance, etc, etc.

We need systemic change, not the superficial stuff.

Let's draw a line, let's send out that signal.

PS The mainstream media isn't going to do it for us.
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #127 on: April 22, 2017, 11:06:53 PM »
budm
Nice to see you back home after what I'm sure was a wonderful adventure.
Did you happen to drop in at Murray Springs, just south west from Tombstone? Only interesting if Clovis hunters and dead Mammoths are your thing.


Reasoning and pontification are about the only tools available on this thread. We'll never be able to measure the benefits, or damage done by following one course of action over another.


If Corporate Democrats are sent into the desert, and Republicans win, "told you so's" will echo through the land.
If Democrats stick to the tried and true, (only more of it), and they lose, "you did it again didn't you" will peal from every (faux-ivory) tower.


Truth is that we need the Republicans to lose, and we need the winners to have cleaned up their act.
Personally I have very little hope of an outcome I'll be happy with. I don't think we can win using 2016 tactics & I don't think we can rebuild the party in the allotted time. When 2018 gains are followed by 2020 losses the recriminations will be fierce. I suppose what I'm attempting is to force progressive Democrats into going through the recrimination phase now.


What we did in 2016 will provide fodder for Politics 101 classes for decades to come, and not as an example of how to win.
What we are doing now, in 2017, will also be studied. Did we admit that we made mistakes, and try to rectify them? Did we externalize the blame and push the boulder further up the hill, hoping this time to take it past the summit.


I believe I know the correct course to take, but I have no way to prove this, and won't have even after 2020 has past. We can lose having made the correct choice and we can win, even if we've screwed up terribly.


Perhaps I should proffer the argument that we should ignore 2018 & 2020 and look ahead at what kind of party we want after the dust settles. Do we want a leftist party that ignores the bankers needs & wants, while working for the workers, or do we have a more right wing vision for our party, where what's good for General Whatever is good for the US of A. Perhaps a kinder, gentler, version of the Republicans.


Alas, the time is short & the die is damn near cast. It seems as though we're going to externalize the blame - Damn Trump, Putin, Wikileaks & Comey - as we drift in lockstep with the same cads that finance our enemy.
Finding myself at odds with those whose intellect and sincerity I respect, makes my self appointed task painful. At the end of the day you'll find me preaching to an ungrateful congregation. Still sure that my analysis is correct. A Casandra without the foresight to know beyond doubt what the future holds.


Terry






budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2017, 08:10:10 AM »
Hi Terry:

Didn't make it to Murray Springs, although the Clovis people do interest me. We would have stayed longer, but I had issues with altitude, although we do plan on going back sometime in mid to late May. Will have to pay closer attention to the altitude next time!

I've enjoyed the discussion with you and Susan Anderson and Sidd, as well as others. The landscape is so complicated, it's difficult to know where to make a stand, so I've been listening and reading for the most part.

In our travels, we went to San Diego and walked the beach at Border State Park, literally on the border with Mexico. This picture will give people an idea of what a wall and/or fence looks like. I wanted to actually touch the fence and maybe talk with the folks on the other side, but the border patrol wouldn't allow it. About twenty feet from the fence, I was waived off by the border patrol.

Regards,

BudM

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2017, 11:46:20 AM »
Jimmy Dore has another video in which he applauds Keith Ellison (after being very hard on him a few weeks ago). The video is called Keith Ellison Blames Obama For Democratic Party Collapse:

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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #130 on: April 24, 2017, 12:09:55 AM »
Here's a really good Jimmy Dore video, published tonight, that explains that according to polls Bernie Sanders is still the most popular politician in the US by far (but still the Democratic Party refuses to follow his lead). Unfortunately they are slightly negative about Elizabeth Warren towards the end, out of disappointment that she didn't stick her chin out enough during some issues. But they don't disapprove of her either.

Sanders and Warren are the most popular politicians right now in the US. What an opportunity there is to really build up a wave to sweep the nation. Both parties are in disarray, but only the Democrats (or a third party) have a real chance of getting power back and push some real change.

I feel Jimmy Dore really explains it very well:

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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #131 on: April 24, 2017, 01:19:49 AM »
I sincerely hope that Dore is wrong when he says that we need a Progressive Party, out from under the democratic umbrella.
Third parties don't win in the States, and they have skewed elections. In this case they would siphon votes from the Democrats, possibly allowing an unpopular Republican to slip through.


My hope is that the Democrats return to their Liberal, Progressive roots.


I'm wondering how Tulsi Gabbard is holding up to the hammering from Corporate Democrats? Only someone Stateside will have a feel for how the public is reacting.
Is her seat safe in Hawaii?
Does she have any influence with the DNC, in Washington, or in the national discourse?


Thanks in Advance
Terry


P.S.
Susan
I hope you've never taken anything I've written as a personal slap in the face. I think I'm beginning to understand your position WRT where the Democrats are heading & why we can't "clean house", at least at this point in time.
We need more voices with more, often divergent, visions of what it will take to shed the Republican's influence & I welcome & encourage your input.




sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #132 on: April 25, 2017, 05:28:00 AM »
I asked a few days ago:

" Let me ask a (perhaps naive) question addressed to the defenders of the Democratic Party.

Is there even a single incumbent Democrat running in 2018 whom they will admit as being in the thrall of plutocracts ? And should be opposed ? "

Apparently, not. No one but Neven and I have proposed any. So let me propose another. Dianne Feinstein.

For a history of her and her husband's war profiteering, take a look at

http://www.metroactive.com/metro/01.24.07/dianne-feinstein-0704.html

That was during Afghanistan and Iraq. Her subsequent resignation from the military construction appropriations subcommittee is covered at

http://www.metroactive.com/metro/03.21.07/dianne-feinstein-resigns-0712.html

More recently in 2009, when the Democrats had the presidency and majorities in House and Senate whats the first thing she does on the first day of Congress in 2009 ? 25 billion to her husband's company from FDIC. To the victor go the spoils. For, get this, "managing" foreclosures. Evicting people I know out on the streets.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/21/senate-husbands-firm-cashes-in-on-crisis/

Since then she has done some more endearing things like PIPA, supporting all government surveillance, criminalizing strong encryption, gutting the Post Office so her husband could make some more ...

That's a tough fight. She's got a buncha money from defence contractors, lawyers and support from other corporate Democrats. But if we never fight, we never win.

More broadly, if that's the kind of person the Democratic Party wants to keep in power, screw them.
There have been other parties before, and there will be again.

sidd

budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #133 on: April 25, 2017, 05:43:01 AM »
In a recent Washington Post/ABC poll, only 28% of respondents believed that the Democratic party was in touch with the concerns of the average person.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/24/politics/democratic-party-poll/index.html

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #134 on: April 25, 2017, 06:58:29 AM »
budm
Great link!
Thanks


The polls apparently agree that without a major makeover, our party will simply shrink away. It's nice to have all that corporate money on hand, but without voters it doesn't mean much.
Retrospection, getting back to the principles & ideals that once separated us from the Republicans is the only way we win.
We can't rely on the Republicans to continually nominate monsters, enabling us to pick up a few seats. The negative perception of us that independents have is wrong. The negative perception of our leaders that independents have might be spot on.
We don't need to change. We need to change our leaders.


Terry

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #135 on: April 25, 2017, 07:38:40 AM »

The links I posted to Feinstein and Blum war profiteering tell you how the Republicans sold the Afghanistan and Iraq wars in the House and Senate. They cut the corporate Democrats in on the deal. That's how they will sell the next war. And the next. And the next. Watch who gets fat on the spoils. Watch the money.

2018 is not that far away. Find some primary opposition to the Democratic sellouts, and support them.

sidd


budmantis

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #136 on: April 25, 2017, 07:44:33 AM »
budm
Great link!
Thanks


We don't need to change. We need to change our leaders.


Terry

Agreed Terry. Glad you liked the link.

BudM

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #137 on: April 25, 2017, 08:01:33 AM »
1) "We don't need to change. We need to change our leaders."

You will not do the second until you do the first. For too long have we tolerated both Party machines. Occupy and BLM and First Nations are correct, go to the street. No way to get somebody like Feinstein out without crowdfunding and street money.

2) Re: Polls

Here's one showing that if a reelection were held today, more of Trump's support would hold than Hillary's.

"There are no signs of major slippage in support among those who voted for Trump. His approval rating among those who cast ballots for him stands at 94 percent. Among Republicans, it is 84 percent. Asked of those who voted for him whether they regret doing so, 2 percent say they do, while 96 percent say supporting Trump was the right thing to do.When asked if they would vote for him again, 96 percent say they would, which is higher than the 85 percent of Hillary Clinton voters who say they would support her again. "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/nearing-100-days-trumps-approval-at-record-lows-but-his-base-is-holding/2017/04/22/a513a466-26b4-11e7-b503-9d616bd5a305_story.html

sidd

solartim27

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #138 on: April 25, 2017, 08:05:40 AM »
So let me propose another. Dianne Feinstein.
Could not agree more.  Haven't voted for her in the primaries for a while, and skip thatposition in the general now that it is top 2 in CA.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #139 on: April 26, 2017, 05:32:17 AM »
One reason for the Democratic party's predicament is the media bubble. They believe their own bullshit. They should read Ellul more carefully.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/25/media-bubble-real-journalism-jobs-east-coast-215048

If there is to be a transformation of the Democratic Party, it must include more than the coasts. This is difficult, since most of their money and support comes from the coasts. They can win back the unions, and the rural racists who voted for Obama twice and not Hillary, they can win back the farmers, and yes, the coal miners. But they do have to act as more than a party for the well off, well educated coastal elites.

sidd

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #140 on: April 26, 2017, 07:00:50 AM »
Right after I post that hope that the Democratic Party can win back the hopeless poor, i see this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39710529

Dear god, these guys are hopelessly tone-deaf. Even Yglesias at vox, which was pretty much in the tank for Clinton,  thinks so:

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/25/15419740/obama-speaking-fee

And once upon a time the nytimes used to publish opinion pieces like these:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/02/opinion/02iht-edjacoby.4775315.html

How is that going to roll in Appalachia ? The Obamas and the Clintons  are already much more than millionaires, can't they get of the gravy train for even a minute ? Come on, guys. This ain't gonna play in Peoria. You just lost some more millions of votes.

There seems to be nothing thats gets through that dissuades from their naked greed.

sidd
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 07:11:39 AM by sidd »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #141 on: April 27, 2017, 10:45:00 PM »
Pelosi gets a primary opponent, a Bernie supporter.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-nancy-pelosi-just-got-a-challenger-and-1493224950-htmlstory.html

CA is one of those states with open primaries, you do't have to register as a Democrat, and has a runoff system where all candidates appear on a ballot, top two go on to runoff.

Send Jaffe some money. If you live in her area, show up to the polls. Before that work to get people registered. Mebbe we can get her out.

sidd

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #142 on: April 27, 2017, 11:00:36 PM »
There seems to be nothing thats gets through that dissuades from their naked greed.
Yawn. Naked greed? So, what word do you have for Trump's greed?
I bet he will (like Hillary) donate the money to charity. Oh the corruption. Lock them up. Vote Trump.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. And so the Left is their own biggest enemy.
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #143 on: April 27, 2017, 11:16:46 PM »
Pelosi gets a primary opponent, a Bernie supporter.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-nancy-pelosi-just-got-a-challenger-and-1493224950-htmlstory.html

CA is one of those states with open primaries, you do't have to register as a Democrat, and has a runoff system where all candidates appear on a ballot, top two go on to runoff.

Send Jaffe some money. If you live in her area, show up to the polls. Before that work to get people registered. Mebbe we can get her out.

sidd


What a coincidence. I watched a Jimmy Dore Show video today (from December 8th 2016) that shows Howard Dean praising Nancy Pelosi. Boy, what a scumbag that guy is (or has become, I've been told). He explains why Pelosi is still House Minority Leader, after the incredible failures and sell-out of the Democratic Part: she raises a lot of money. That's why she can afford all that empty rhetoric, I guess.

Here it is:

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I really don't understand why we can't all agree that this woman has got to go, asap. And there are more like her (no, not all of them).

Is that Jaffe guy the best option? Or are there younger people involved as well? I'd like to donate some money to the person with the best chances of beating Pelosi. That would really be statement and a message. Maybe it would give people like Sanders and Warren the leverage to really change things and make maximum use of the opportunity that Trump is offering (if played right).
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #144 on: April 28, 2017, 12:44:49 AM »
Re: "So, what word do you have for Trump's greed? "

This thread is to discuss Corporate Democrats, not the shortcomings of Trump. There are several other threads for that. Take it to one of those.

And here's Jimmy Dore going to town on Obama's taking a payoff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJO5xCEDmk

Jimmy beats on obama like a rented mule.

sidd

« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 06:59:53 AM by sidd »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #145 on: April 28, 2017, 05:14:46 AM »
Careful on direct foreign support to candidates. That might backfire, and I do not know the election laws in detail. But after Citizen's United decision, PACs are probably fair game.

Consult an attorney. The oligarchs do it by setting up shell corps and cutouts, 4-5KUS$ for the lot,  detailed in the Panama Papers.

As far as Jaffe goes, I dunno anymore than was in the article i posted. I will try find out more about him.

Oooo i just found his web site. Labor law attorney, represents only employees apparently, not employers.

http://www.jaffetriallaw.com/


sidd

« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 06:57:34 AM by sidd »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #146 on: April 28, 2017, 09:01:47 AM »
Careful on direct foreign support to candidates. That might backfire, and I do not know the election laws in detail. But after Citizen's United decision, PACs are probably fair game.


Ah yes, didn't consider that. I live only 25 km from what used to by the Iron Curtain, and my name is Slavic (hence Russian). Maybe you can be my conduit?

@Martin: It's not either/or. This thread is about the bad elements in the Democratic Party which have been dominating it for quite a while now. That 'perfection is the enemy of the good' has become a meme for people like Pelosi and Schumer to hide behind.

On the ASIB Susan wrote:

Meanwhile, those who give a pass to the real villains because of their passion to condemn those they label "corporate democrats" are only weakening the resistance by demanding "purity". Who among us is innocent of modern conveniences? I admire those who walk the walk, but we cannot defeat out and out hypocrisy and villainy with less than 10% of the population.


Well, then you're not going to defeat it. It's that simple.

It looked as if we were in the process of defeating it with 'Yes, we can' and hope and change, and look what came out of that: Bail-outs, more war, more fracking, more poverty, more discontent, less hope, less change.

So, why not strive for a little more purity? Why not rally behind people like Warren, Sanders, Gabbard and this congressman called Ro Khanna who attended a recent live Jimmy Dore Show:

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As long as Pelosi, Schumer, Perez and many others are there, as long as the untransparent DNC with its superdelegate nonsense doesn't get reformed, as long as dirtbags like Howard Dean constantly get to appear in mainstream media to act like a Republican, the Democrats are going to keep losing and losing and losing.

What the people who advocate for no real changes to the Democratic Party seem to propose, is that we can only beat the Republicans by lying like they do and by getting more money from donors than they do. And anything other than that is a purity test (yuck, purity).

What's wrong with striving for more purity?
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #147 on: April 28, 2017, 12:08:29 PM »

And here's Jimmy Dore going to town on Obama's taking a payoff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJO5xCEDmk

Jimmy beats on obama like a rented mule.

sidd

I'm watching this video right now. I like this quote from the article that Dore is discussing:

"Leaders who sincerely care about the progressive center as a nationally and globally viable political movement need to push back against this perception (ie Obama accepting 400K from a Wall Street for a speech; N.) by behaving with a higher degree of personal integrity than their rivals - not by accepting the logic that what is good for the goose is good for the gander."

Stop with the purity tests already!  ;)
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #148 on: April 28, 2017, 01:00:31 PM »
Robert Reich said it too (back in December):

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“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman