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Author Topic: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out  (Read 10274 times)

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2017, 07:16:54 AM »
Thanks for the link. Here is a link to the Democratic Establishment putting the shiv into Tulsi Gabbard. Or trying. She is very popular in Hawaii, and attempts to unseat her would cost a great deal ... in more than money.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/09/politics/democratic-leaders-gabbard-syria/index.html

Tanden and Dean are slime. Thats what i don't want to become, but i see no way to beat them for control of the Democratic party without becoming slime myself.

Need a new start.

sidd


gerontocrat

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2017, 03:13:22 PM »
If you want to get rid of someone then a good place to start is "know thine enemy as thyself".

I came across Ayn Rand years ago when Alan Greenspan was the acknowledged Master of the Universe. When considering Corporate America of any apparent political persuasion (from Tillerson to Musk) the writings of this weird lady are a must. Try the following link for starters:-

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/10/new-age-ayn-rand-conquered-trump-white-house-silicon-valley

And remember - multi-nationals and who run them are all just the same. We once upon a time thought Google might be different, we were wrong.

wili

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2017, 10:10:40 PM »
Reminds me of a couple quotes:

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

“I have always found it quaint and rather touching that there is a movement [Libertarians] in the US that thinks Americans are not yet selfish enough.”  Christopher Hitchens

 :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2017, 10:52:19 PM »
"We once upon a time thought Google might be different, we were wrong."

Who is we ? I haven't trusted google since about the time their engine became dominant. I havent used it except through cutouts in over a decade. I recommend those practices. Remember that their assets are your personal data. Don't give it to them, and better yet, pollute it. This discussion would perhaps be better on the "Securing the Internet" thread, were it not for the fact that Google is one of the Dmocratic Party's largest corporate backers, and has an army of lobbyists in DC.

sidd

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2017, 01:59:08 AM »
My heart is with the throw the bums out faction, but my head is with the do what's necessary to get the monsters out now. It's awful to live in the US of A these days. Every day brings new horrors (today: MOAB and defunding Planned Parenthood; recently, Supreme Court now in charge of voter suppression, which will keep the kleptocrats and climate deniers in power).

I felt I had said my bit, which is that the infighting isn't helping; here's one more on that from today's New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/13/opinion/how-to-stand-up-to-trump-and-win.html:

First, advocates are often university-educated elites who can come across as patronizing. So skip the lofty rhetoric and emphasize issues of pocketbooks and corruption. Centrist voters may not care whether Trump is riding roughshod over institutions, but they’ll care if he rips them off or costs them jobs.

Second, movements must always choose between purity and breadth — and usually they overdo the purity. It’s often possible to achieve more with a broader coalition, cooperating with people one partially disagrees with. I think it was a mistake, for example, for the Women’s March to disdain “pro-life” feminists.

Third, nothing deflates an authoritarian more than ridicule. When Serbian youths challenged the dictator Slobodan Milosevic, they put his picture on a barrel and rolled it down the street, allowing passers-by to whack it with a bat.

In recruiting for the Trump resistance, Stephen Colbert may be more successful than a handful of angry Democratic senators. Trump can survive denunciations, but I’m less sure that in the long run he can withstand mockery.

That was the context to introduce this useful list of action ideas (more effective than rockstar crowds screaming approval of each simplistic assertion):

https://www.mapm.org/documents/198_nonviolent_methods_2007.pdf

I get the feeling I am now a "corporate Democrat" in your view. Not much I can do about that. My opinion: burning down the house leaves you homeless.

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2017, 02:28:40 AM »
In that quote, I could have wished Kristof had found a less controversial example than "pro-life feminists" but I didn't get to choose. That was the bit I wanted to emphasize.

In Neven's blog, a variety of opinions are tolerated. But it appears there is a need to insult moderates in this thread, to gang up against natural allies and ignore the all too obvious real enemies, who are in power and exploiting these differences. While it is arguable that in this present, moderates are part of the problem (Arctic information makes it clear action is needed, not now, but yesterday), insulting them only enables the Ayn Randians. Meanwhile, Chomsky from Wikipedia.

In an interview with Al Jazeera, Chomsky called Donald Trump an "ignorant, thin-skinned megalomaniac" and a "greater evil" than Hillary Clinton. Asked about claims that Russia interfered in the U.S. presidential election through hacking, Chomsky said: “It’s possible, but it’s a kind of strange complaint in the United States. The U.S. has been interfering with, and undermining, elections all over the world for decades and is proud of it.”

Tolerating the intolerable is no fun, but blaming allies and fellow victims, while it may comfort the outrage, accomplishes little or nothing.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2017, 08:02:17 AM »
0) Perhaps there should be a thread entitled "The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out, but not before we empower them some more to depose Trump"  Or perhaps, in Augustine's words "O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet," or "Lord, give me chastity, but do not give it yet."

But since there isn't yet, let me address some of Anderson's statements here:

1) Anderson argues that in view of the great evil of the Trump Caesarship, one must ally with corporate Democrats in order to depose him. But it is the evils wrought by corporate Democrats that caused their own voters to stay home and droves of rural voters to come out and elect Trump. Supporting those corporate Democrats again will lead to worse than Trump, this I do see clearly.

2) Anderson sees a " ... need to insult moderates in this thread, to gang up against natural allies and ignore the all too obvious real enemies ... insulting them only enables the Ayn Randians. " I see nothing moderate in the rapacity of corporate Democrats at all, and I do not consider them allies, natural or otherwise. And if it is insulting to point out their habitual vices, why, then yes, I do see a need to insult them. My enemies I choose for myself, and they include the "Ayn Randians." The same for my allies, and those do not include the corporate Democrats.  And my battles, I pick for myself also and right now I choose to oppose the evils of the corporate Democrats and those of corporate Republicans and those of Trump. Oddly enuf, I find that the same actions serve all three purposes.

3) Anderson feels that it is  "awful to live in the US of A these days." Welcome to the club, some of us have been here for a very long time. We missed you all those long years when Peace Caesar Obama was killing people in several different countries. And I suspect that if and when the next Democratic Caesar ascends, we will miss you again.

4) Anderson fears that "burning down the house leaves you homeless." A fine figure of speech, but wake up,many many are already literally unhoused. The last Peace Caesar saw to that, rescuing and sheltering he banks and bankers while his minions like Larry Summers and Timothy Geithner refused aid or recompense to those defrauded and evicted. The Peace Caesar, like every Chicago machine politician before him, knuckled under to the big money. The phone call came down, the fix went in, the bankers made out and millions of families were out on the street. That is a very big reason for Trump being elected.

5) I would like to pose Anderson a question: What will it take for you to disavow people like Neera Tanden and Howard Dean ? Do you agree with their attack on Rep. Gabbard ? Does Dean, lobbyist for pharma, have to personally fellate the CEO of Eli Lilly in Times Square before you draw the line ? Does Chuck Schumer have to do likewise for Lloyd Blankfein before you demur ?  Does Hillary Clinton have to dismember a few more countries like Libya before you call her warmonger ? Does Madeline Albright have to kill a few more children on stage in Carnegie Hall before you say "Stop!" ?

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2017, 08:29:04 AM »
Susan


Without Corporate Democrats the world would not now have Trump to deal with.


Do you expect that the same people, doing the same things, will somehow yield different results?


You have close to four years to build new coalitions. Please don't waste them rebuilding the last disaster, that probably would have lost to anyone the Republicans offered up.


Corporations are expected to do well under Trump's low tax, low regulation policies. Is it totally outlandish to fear that Goldman Sachs, Microsoft and Time Warner, (all top ten Hillary donors), weren't devastated when Trump was sworn in?


Corporate Democrats are not part of a broad base, they are part of a broad problem.


4 years.
Terry

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2017, 09:01:10 AM »
I say two years, not four.  Got 2018 elections, and primaries sooner. Throw the corporates out on both sides. Run your own candidates if you have to. And what the hell, send some bux to the right people yourself. Give em free geotargeted ads if you run a website. Microtarget if you got the data.

But, regardless of appearances, not everything happens online. Get away from the computer, talk to your neighbors. You get a lot of local history that way about local candidates  Especially if you do realworld  little things like plant trees or raincapture together with a bunch of locals. Even if you dont think you are changing minds, you can be surprised, sometimes many years down the road.

And definitely don't vote a straight ticket, check each one's funding and history first.

sidd

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2017, 09:40:54 AM »
Sidd, I agree with a lot of what you stand for. I admired Noam Chomsky since I took a class from him in the early 1970s. My family supported Stevenson against Eisenhower. Reagan made me sick. Bush was horrible. I took part in Occupy.

Your (and other's) pointed attack is difficult to read (my name is Susan but it's easier to spit out "Anderson") and impossible to answer; in some cases your "facts" are incomplete. I have tried to provide a balance of information about what is going on here in the US for people who are not so ready to condemn moderate and pragmatic progressives; I am not the enemy. This is exactly what I am complaining about; people egging each other on drove me away from Bernie last year. I don't like in-crowd dynamics on any "side".

I'm lucky to live in Massachusetts; even our Republican governor is decent. Elizabeth Warren is, was, and will remain solid gold; she has never wavered, keeps her own counsel, and does what she thinks will work. Before she was on the scene Ed Markey was an unsung climate hero for over three decades. I was a Bernie fan for at least a decade, but recently concluded he is too simplistic (bombastic?), sure he and his supporters have all the answers, and inclined to attack people who should be his allies. I don't much care for Hillary Clinton but there is abundant evidence that she has been targeted, labeled, lied about, and misrepresented for decades. Fact checking reveals that much progressive blame is for actions forced by Republicans, such as the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Blaming Obama for his failure to overcome opposition ignores the problems he faced. In 2009, with that big climate jamboree at MIT and the ABC Earth2100 prime time special (Podesta's work), there was hope. These are not villains.

I know little about Tulsi Gabbard. I supported Tom Wakefield in his effort against Lamar Smith and James Thompson in Kansas. I will not support Heitkamp or Minchin, but Perez is not the enemy. Howard Dean is a good man, even if he erred. (I also supported and participated in the Occupy movement.)

Madeleine Albright has said some ugly things. As a former refugee and the first female Secretary of State, she appears to have accepted the exigencies of office. I don't think things can be simplified in this way. I ask you, reading this about Rwanda, what are we doing about Sudan and the 20 million at risk of famine in the Horn of Africa?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright
My deepest regret from my years in public service is the failure of the United States and the international community to act sooner to halt these crimes. …. it was a very, very difficult time, and the situation was unclear. You know, in retrospect, it all looks very clear. But when you were [there] at the time, it was unclear about what was happening in Rwanda.
Is it so difficult to see that there are no good answers in Syria? I tend to agree with those on both left and right that it is high time we stopped trying to interfere, since we usually make things worse. But is that possible given the Balkans in the 1990s, Rwanda, Sudan?

I'm sorry my efforts have become a target for such disgust. I have to stand up for life, and right now life's best hope is to defeat the Republicans. Hatred and victim blaming solves nothing, as we are learning very much to our cost now.
--
It was difficult to venture out into this forum, and the response was worse than I feared. Google caters to preferences, which means, for example, that WattsUp and denialists come up on the first page of any climate search. Though not so extreme, there are bias confirming mechanisms on the left as well. Both the Guardian and DailyKos are useful and fair.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 09:50:51 AM by Susan Anderson »

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2017, 11:06:08 AM »
Susan


I certainly have no intention of disparaging you, but can you please explain to me how having Goldman Sacks on board is likely to help?
You complain of Bernie's simplistic solutions, and you may be correct. Allowing Goldman Sacks nose under the tent flap soon obfuscates any message to such an extent that simplification becomes necessary just to clear the air.
I was a straight ticket democrat for over 40 years. Two incredibly bloody minded female Secretaries of State cured me of that. This wasn't anything that the Republicans can claim as a victory, they didn't put the words in Albright's or Clinton's mouths.


I don't argue here with the intention of hurting anyone's stature, rather I hope to influence some to at least consider a different perspective.


Whether it's 2 years or 4, the time is short. Harper, in Canada, was brought down in large part because of his heavy handed stance on climate change. This left his successor with little leeway.
I believe Trump can fall to the same forces. If so, and assuming a democratic candidate that hasn't already sold out, we may have some small chance of survival.


Encouraging Trump to "Get Tough with Putin", could get us all killed in a retaliatory strike.
Encouraging Democrats to again "Feed at the Trough", could cost another election.


Terry




sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2017, 09:33:00 PM »
Susan, I did not want to presume familiarity by using your first name, but I shall if you prefer. My post was not an attack on you, merely on some of your positions. I do not claim to have all the answers, but I have decided on my own actions, my own battles, my own allies and my own foes. You are not one of the last, and perhaps some day you will be an ally. Or, I might change my mind too, heaven knows it happens often enough.

Now to address some of your points:

1) Agree that Warren is a fine person and an effective advocate, she has my support also.

2) Agree that Clinton (Bill) was not solely reponsible for Gramm-Leach-Bliley. Glass-Steagall was dying ever since the excemption for the Citi-Travellers merger. The republicans forced Gramm-Leach-Bliley, but Clinton appointed people like Rubin and Summers, reappointed Greenspan who forced Brooksley Born out, and Clinton signed the bill. Clinton wasn't just along for the ride, he shares blame.

3) Obama faced opposition, true, but his picks like Summers and Geithner spoke volumes. By his actions did I know him, as soon as I saw his appointments I knew the fix was in. He didnt even try to bring the bankers or the torturers to justice, he was content to let it ride. He didnt even try to help the homeowners, he let Geithner screw them. For those actions and inactions I do blame him.

4) Albright, Powers, Rice, Clinton are all proponents of Responsibility to Protect interventionist policies which have led to untold misery. You ask about the Balkans,Rwanda,Syria,Sudan and the Horn of Africa and in each case my answer is the same. The USA should stay the fuck out.

Thes of course are my opinions. You have yours, and others have their own. But that is precisely why we participate in this forum, to share our opinions and to consider those of others. Your participation has helped me see your views more clearly, and I welcome it. No disgust toward you was intended, and if my post conveyed any to you, I am sorry, and will try to mend my ways.

sidd

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2017, 12:47:27 AM »
Thanks Sidd (and TerryM), I like your positions, I just think, speaking in an overly simplistic fashion, in some cases, you are blaming the victim rather than the perp.

Bill Clinton rescued us from Reaganomics, a gross distortion of Hayek (more about that later). To do so, he had to assume a centrist position. He had Hillary work on universal health care (early 1990s), which earned her the undying hatred of Republicans and the epithet "liar" from Safire, which stuck. She lacked Bill's folksy affect, and was never good with crowds, but she was always a better man than he was.

Obama, not lacking humility, arrived in the midst of the mother or all financial crises, and he bought the mythology of bankster authority. It took him a while, having committed himself to working for all of us, to realize the nasty wholesale quality of kleptocrat opposition to progress. Jane Mayer describes this in Dark Money.

More than anything else, I believe our current problem is voter suppression (supposing we survive the confrontation between weak Trump and weaker Kim Jong Un and don't embark in a nuclear exchange in the next few weeks, thanks to US military restraint or Chinese long-term thinking, for which I hope). We need a vast majority to gain some strength in 2018. We need realism, not infighting. To get rid of money in politics, we need Democrats, not Republicans, and we need to reverse the recent disaster with our Supreme Court (Gorsuch is for voter suppression, and Attorney General Sessions is scum, a racist white supremacist liar). Climate acknowledgment is paramount, but again we are going backwards. Republicans are happy to use progressives to defeat conventional Democrats who are used to doing their best in a bad situation to get things done, since they've never known anything else.
---
Hayek is not a "Hayekian" per Republicans. Here are two interesting quotes:

In the 1973 Law, Legislation, and Liberty, Hayek wrote:
There is no reason why in a free society government should not assure to all, protection against severe deprivation in the form of an assured minimum income, or a floor below which nobody need descend. To enter into such an insurance against extreme misfortune may well be in the interest of all; or it may be felt to be a clear moral duty of all to assist, within the organised community, those who cannot help themselves. So long as such a uniform minimum income is provided outside the market to all those who, for any reason, are unable to earn in the market an adequate maintenance, this need not lead to a restriction of freedom, or conflict with the Rule of Law.

and in The Road to Serfdom:
Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist the individuals in providing for those common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few individuals can make adequate provision. Where, as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance – where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks – the case for the state's helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong.... Wherever communal action can mitigate disasters against which the individual can neither attempt to guard himself nor make the provision for the consequences, such communal action should undoubtedly be taken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2017, 05:40:44 AM »
1) blaming the victim : who are the victims ? From personal experience, it's the guy in PA who died last year from black lung after being denied both disability and VA treatment. The dozen or so families I know who lost their houses and their marriages, dozen or so more families that lost just their houses. It's all the drivers I know that live hand to mouth, lowballing haulage rates, making less than minimum when all is said and done, just to stay alive. It's the several dozen farmers that are hanging on by their fingernails in the face of worsening climate, rapacious seed and fertilizer companies, rentier agribusiness and predatory banks. And the several more that have already lost their family farms and survive as rental labor for agribusiness. It's my neighbor who collapsed on a landscaping job yesterday morning, no insurance, and rushed to emergency. He was one of those families i was talking about.

The Clintons and the Obamas ? not so much. (But I do credit Michelle Obama for turning her husband from Syria attack.)

2) Agreed on voter suppression. A big part of that is gerrymandering. I have sent some love towards efforts to reverse in PA, this fight is at state level.

3) Disagreed on the statement: "To get rid of money in politics, we need Democrats, not Republicans"
Get rid of the corporate whores on both sides. Believe it or not, there are Republicans who dislike big money in politics as much as I do.

4) Re: Gorsuch : I actually think Gorsuch is better than that dinosaur Scalia who was his predecessor.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2017, 09:12:07 AM »
Hayek may not be Hayekian, but should we next expect a vindication of Strauss, as opposed to Straussian?
Monsters have tender moments, but they're still to be avoided.


Bill Clinton was the first president elected in my lifetime that I was enthusiastically for. Hillary was my choice over Obama, but then, as Secretary of State, a very bitter, unstable personality emerged.
Later, with her off the cuff comment when confronted with Qaddafi's torture and death, she lost my support forever.
Again, monsters must be avoided.


Is Trump a Monster - Probably
Do we need to call on Rodan to kill Godzilla?
Why not pull back the green curtains and attack the puppet masters that control both?


Terry


Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2017, 05:25:06 PM »
Before I respond, here's a repeat of an effective link that activists can use: 198 Methods of Nonviolent Action https://www.mapm.org/documents/198_nonviolent_methods_2007.pdf. I came across it in a critique that pointed out that change requires more than showing up in crowds and stoking energy. That energy needs to be put to use.
---
Terry: I'm all for that. Exactly how do you expect to do it? Attacking what I say for bringing reality into this conversation may make you feel better, but it's a waste of energy since we agree on principle. The New York Times, which should know better and claims to embrace "the truth", has just hired a denier. All we can do is write the paper and complain, and comment in comment sections. It's a grotty old world.

Sidd et al.:
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I think we want the same thing, I just blame Republicans for creating a hostile environment where compromise is the only way to get things done. That's what I mean about blaming victims: blaming Democrats for the unrelenting actions and obstruction by Republicans and their billionaire funders, the Kochtopus and Mercers and such.

As I watched Obama adjust to reality, much of what we all loved about him seemed compromised, but I was less inclined to blame him than the job he inherited and the evil abroad in the world. Jane Mayer, as I said, did a good job of describing his shock at the adamantine power of absolute opposition to getting anything done that the continuing erosion by the billionaire network didn't want (anyone wanting a copy of her Dark Money can contact me with an address and I will send you one, via the handy little thingmajig this forum provides). Blaming our representatives for accepting things as they are when they have no choice and succeeding at working within the "system" is, in my opinion, exactly what Republicans want you to do. I'm close to Warren's age, and she looks tired to me; she's a realist who doesn't give up her ethics.

re Gorsuch, the information I digested showed him to the right of Scalia. He's personable, but looking past that to his actions he is the worst news possible, particularly for voting rights. This week's New Yorker has a bit about the capture of the Supreme Court by the Federalist Society that is worth a look. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/04/17/the-conservative-pipeline-to-the-supreme-court The Conservative Pipeline to the Supreme Court: "With the Federalist Society, Leonard Leo has reared a generation of originalist élites. The selection of Neil Gorsuch is just his latest achievement."

This is from an earlier article about Gorsuch:
From his boyhood days as a Republican Senate page to his decades of volunteer work for G.O.P. candidates, Gorsuch has been a strong party loyalist. (Like many Republican pols, he refers to the “Democrat,” rather than the Democratic, Party.)

His background also includes a dose of pro-corporate, deregulatory libertarianism, as reflected in his close relationship with the billionaire Philip Anschutz, a client turned mentor. A sampling of authoritarianism can be seen in Gorsuch’s service in George W. Bush’s Justice Department, where he helped craft a proposal for the treatment of detainees at Guantánamo. (The Supreme Court later ruled it unconstitutional.) There’s social conservatism, too, evident in his one book, a critique of death-with-dignity laws and physician-assisted suicide. “All human beings are intrinsically valuable,” he wrote, “and the intentional taking of human life by private persons is always wrong.” It’s easy to read the book as a coded attack on abortion rights.

Those with different systems and, hopefully, more reasonable governments, express a natural disgust at our grotesque state of affairs, and the dangers that poses to our beloved earth and other countries. Michael Moore's Stupid White Men describes the phenomenon that has been exported, for example, to the UK where public property is being sold off to the highest bidder and common benefits are being dismantled.

Finally, one more suggestion for enlightened reporting. You all will have noticed that I use The New Yorker a lot. It's both readable and wise, and though paywalled one can look at a limited number of articles every month. A lot of Jane Mayer's research was published there first. I recommend it.

gerontocrat

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2017, 07:12:26 PM »
Ghandi kicked us Brits out of India through Civil Disobedience. Methinks this is where we are getting to.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2017, 02:10:26 AM »
1) Re: "We are going to have to agree to disagree ..."
    Agreed.

2) Re Obama: He was already showing signs of wall street lizardlike behaviour in his senate vote flip on telecom immunity. I waited for his treasury and attorney general appointments, and then i knew. He could have put in Bill Black to Treasury, who actually sent bankers to jail after the savings and loan crisis. Or Michael Hudson who would have had no problem breaking up the banks. But no, he went with Summers and Geithner. He could have appointed an attorney general with backbone, but no, he showed up with a whiteshoe corporate lobbyist sellout like Holder. 

I knew then, as certainly as I knew the sun would rise in the east that no banker was going to jail, no torturer brought to justice. I still hoped for some relief for homeowners, and those sons of bitches didn't even throw them a bone, in fact they watched the banks rip the poor bastards off  some more through fraulent loan mods and robosigning. They watched the banks let entire neighborhoods of repossessions fall into ruin.  They were celebrating hope and change with champagne parties on K street while families I knew and loved were thrown out on the street.

The guy didnt even try. And after eight years even the dumbest yokel in Nowhere, Ohio figured out what electing corporate whores gets you.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2017, 09:18:58 AM »
Ghandi kicked us Brits out of India through Civil Disobedience. Methinks this is where we are getting to.
Ghandi, I believe, relied on a sympathetic British media that brought India's plight to a moral British populace.
I'm not sure that we're assured of having either.
MLK had CBS bringing Southern atrocities into Northern living rooms. MLK's methods didn't enlighten the South, they'd watched and cheered these same atrocities for generations. Northern troops assured their compliance, but their hearts and minds still belong to Bull Connors.


sidd posted a scathing expose of Mississippi welfare fraud. Not fraud by the recipients, but systemic fraud by the State of Mississippi against her own citizens.
Those presently in charge bask in the adulation of the untutored xenophobes that they have educated.
After reading sidd's very moving post I checked Nevada's record. This "swing state" allots the princely sum of $383/mo. for a family of 3. This does much to keep the cost of prostitution under control.


I think bringing Corporate Democrats to power is out of our hands. Bubba may not understand much, but he knows how to hate & has learned who to hate. When Republicans pulled out all stops to "Kill Bill", Bubba recognized it as the lynching of one of their own. As we flail away at Trump, they'll see him less as a hero, and more as a martyr.
Don't be deceived by the polls, again.


If union members won't follow union leaders, if Bubba won't vote for a Goldman Sachs Progressive, we have to provide him with a candidate he will elect.
Is this a call for Party Purity, or a call for an electable slate?


Terry

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2017, 06:52:52 PM »
Here's a fine interview with Salman Rushdie, Tony Kushner, and Claudia Rankine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l8JEWfeocg

Not sure why an obsession with hating the Clintons (Bill is done, Hillary lost) is more important than defeating Republicans, or why Neil Gorsuch is OK. Since I don't have the energy to keep on repeating and linking to material that might induce a mite less intolerance for moderates and pragmatists and less acceptance of Republicans and their opposition work, here are some bits I wrote yesterday on corruption.

Trump is a living breathing ethical conflict. He has an unerring ability to choose people who are the most likely to bring the world to smash. Scott Pruitt and other climate evidence deniers to poison the planet. Betsy DeVos, sister of Erik Prince, the former mercenary headman of Blackwater, to ruin public education. Jeffrey Beauregard Sessions, who lied under oath, to corrupt the law, enforce voter suppression and keep those uppity different people down; the god made in his image is offended by the pursuit of knowledge that will help us make progress in stewardship, and tolerance etc. Banksters, kleptocrats, people in the pocket of looters and profiteers in every department.

Trump's insecure enormous ego is a walking talking time bomb. His inability to think and act like a moral honest human being with concerns for other people that don't serve his particular makes him vulnerable to users from Putin's oligarchs, Kochtopus billionaires, and who knows who else. His inability to string together a normal thoughtful plan, not a TV scenario or the plans of a reckless charismatic shyster, is dangerous.

Conflicts of interest are all over him like fleas in a flea circus.

Republicans in Congress, enablers of this monstrous takeover by the kleptocracy, are also ethically challenged. They no longer work for their constituents, they work for their funders. They work to stay in office, block judgeships, enact voter suppression, and are complicit in the takeover of local authorities. It's a growing festering bed of corruption.

Just consider GW Bush, who was elected with the help of his brother the Governor, and his election co-chair Katherine Harris who just happened to also be Secretary of State in Florida. That too almost defined conflict of interest.

With voter suppression, the removal of voting rights, gerrymandering, intimidation, the criminalization of poverty, Citizens United, and now a Supreme Court in the pocket of big money and fake Christianity, the kind that ignores the teachings of Jesus as described in the Gospels, their takeover is nearly complete.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/us/politics/trump-appointees-potential-conflicts.html#permid=22168997

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2017, 07:50:57 PM »
Not sure why an obsession with hating the Clintons (Bill is done, Hillary lost) is more important than defeating Republicans, or why Neil Gorsuch is OK. Since I don't have the energy to keep on repeating and linking to material that might induce a mite less intolerance for moderates and pragmatists and less acceptance of Republicans and their opposition work, here are some bits I wrote yesterday on corruption.


Susan, I for one appreciate your efforts to keep this thread in-balance; and while I am not sure that I have any more energy than you, I draw attention back to the GOP roots of our current problems I provide a link to the first article entitled "Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems".  Neoliberalism economic tradition is founded on cheap oil/gas from 1945 to the early 1970's, that allowed the GOP establishment to put on airs of their own productivity while they were busy fueling our BAU overshoot of the Earth resources.  When cheap oil/gas began to become less available Ronald Reagan led the charge to allow economic exploitation in the global economy and to encourage funding of less conventional fossil fuels like shale gas/oil, tar sands and offshore oil/gas; that put pressure on the use population who would become Trump supports because of: (a) competition from cheap labor overseas and (b) reduced returns on non-conventional fossil fuel investments which left less profit for the establishment to support the less-employed working class.  After the Reagan era, and in a desperate effort to maintain the illusion of their productivity, GOP neoliberalism evolved into neoconservatism epitomized by Dick Cheney and his Halliburton cohorts.  This neoconservatism was characterized by the hundreds of billions of dollars siphoned off by a few kleptocratic companies (including Haliburton) during Bushes invasion of Iraq.  Indeed, Halliburton siphoned off so much super profit that they moved their headquarters to the U.A.E. to avoid Congressional investigation of their financial records.  Cheney's neoconservation thus sowed the seeds for the evolution of the GOP into Trumpism (see the second linked article), where neoliberalism and nationalism are fusing into an ugly form of kleptocacy, in a desperate effort to relive the illusion of the glory days of the conventional fossil fuel era (prior to Jimmy Carter).  The current GOP establishment would have the public believe that their troubles are due to intellectual over-regulation/management, which can be addressed by firing both scientists and regulators.  Thus this thread might consider changing its name to: "The problem with the Corporate Republican-Democrat Dynamic and how to put an end to this Hegelian dialectic of thesis-antithesis-synthesis that is polarizing US policy/politics".

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

Extract: "Financial meltdown, environmental disaster and even the rise of Donald Trump – neoliberalism has played its part in them all. Why has the left failed to come up with an alternative?"

Also see the article entitled: "The Cabinet From Hell: Trumpism Meets Neoliberalism"

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38456-the-cabinet-from-hell-trumpism-meets-neoliberalism

Extract: "Maher fears that we may be witnessing an ugly merger between two dangerous ideologies: Trump's racial nationalism and the GOP's brand of neoliberalism.

"The foundations of neoliberalism have included, for instance, right to individual self-expression, multiculturalism, free press, etc. -- all things Trump has expressed strong antagonism toward," Maher said. But as the Republican leadership warms to Trump, "the capitalist class may be moving closer to accepting a far-right 'solution' to the social crisis of neoliberalism, accommodating an ideology previously regarded as unacceptable.""

Edit1: I note that the U.A.E. (the home of both Halliburton and Blackwater) is deeply involved in the Trump-Russia connection.

Edit2: In the latest Star Wars trailer Luke Skywalker appears to say: “I only know one truth; it’s time for the Jedi to end.”  Which likely means that in order to stop the Force from cycling endlessly between good and evil; we may soon see "The Last Jedi".
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 08:34:36 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Jim Pettit

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2017, 08:06:07 PM »
Not sure why an obsession with hating the Clintons (Bill is done, Hillary lost) is more important than defeating Republicans, or why Neil Gorsuch is OK.

+1000

I'm a reader of and contributor to a number of progressive/liberal outlets, and am to this day amazed by the number of self-confessed Democrats I run into there who almost seem relieved to have Trump and his legion of attendant problems in the White House instead of--horrors!--Hillary Clinton. Because, you know, they're both the same. Or something.

Some of it is, I think, leftover--and, frankly, misplaced--anger at Sanders not making it through the nominating process; these people seem secure in their belief that Sanders would have magically beaten Trump head-to-head, as though we wouldn't have been subjected to non-stop ranting about the "elderly, socialist New York Jew with the wild hair" had he been the candidate instead of Clinton. I like Bernie, still do, and supported him all through the primaries, but that's just wishful thinking.

Some of it, too, seems to be because the massive anti-Clinton messaging that has ricocheted around the MSM for years wormed its way into their brains and found firm lodging there. The Clintons are no angels, to be sure; their neoliberal hawkishness and long-term coziness with Wall Street made me deeply and extremely uncomfortable. And they often seemed to act in their own best interest, if not primarily then certainly equally. But much as some may wish to believe otherwise, HRC and Trump are definitely not different sides of the same coin. They're not even different sides of different coins. Hell, Trump is a different currency altogether. But we've been hearing since the 1990s what an evil-minded, murderous, lying, cheating, manipulative, money-grubbing couple they are--despite a near complete lack of evidence--and that, sadly, swayed some people.

But, as you've noted, that's all a moot point. Spilled milk. Water under the bridge. Both Bill and Hillary are--thankfully--out of politics. And now we face the most corrupt, incompetent, destructive, dangerous, unstable administration that's ever occupied the White House, and there's a ton of work to be done. So I wish we'd all work on that instead of endlessly relitigating HRC's net negatives or Bill's decades-old sexual dalliances. I'm not saying ignore her negatives as a candidate; I'm saying move on and look for much better.

FWIW, I'm all for a third party. But that has to be worked up to; a 3P can't just pop up out of nowhere every four years, run for President, get beaten, and disappear. It'll have to start by getting organized at the local level. By winning small races--school boards, city councils, county commission--and move up from there. Build a groundswell. Gather support and momentum like a snowball rolling downhill, and be prepared for the fact that it'll take more then one election cycle.

Unfortunately, money--and corporatism--isn't going to be cast from politics with the wave of a magic wand; it's going to take time. It's going to take commitment. And it's going to take guts.

Do we have that? I dunno...

gerontocrat

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2017, 07:26:01 PM »
" There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide".     John Adams.
Methinks he was a fan of Plato's Republic.

Perhaps corporate control of politics is a modern equivalent of Plato's later stages of the progress of democracy to tyranny, and the best to hope for is to get over it quickly.

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2017, 08:02:35 PM »
I'm not sure that we are terribly far apart at the moment.


I need to be convinced that Corporate Democrats are electable. I wholeheartedly accept that corporate democrats are preferable to corporate republicans, and would cast my vote for one, if this was the only option available.


I would much prefer a candidate without ties to wall street, and the fact that Trump beat not only Hillary, but a full string of very deep pocketed republicans, shows that a candidate can succeed even when spending far less per vote. If a buffoon like Trump can win, then a sane candidate that cares about climate change, demands a chance at world peace, and offers to bring the country the level of healthcare that the rest of the industrial world thrives on, then sucking wall street's teat may not be needed.


If we insist that Trump's victory was due to Putin's manipulations we're doomed. Embracing that lie leaves us believing that elections are only won by Big Money or through Foreign Intervention. Since our candidate can't expect Foreign Intervention we must attain Big Money, no matter the cost.
Once we again dip into those deep pockets, we have to pay them back by turning our backs on the very people whose vote we're dependent on.
We've seen how well that has worked.


Terry

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2017, 11:11:02 PM »
Thanks Jim Pettit and AbrubtSLR for your contributions from another perspective. I agree that we want the same thing. What I don't like is the sloganeering and social isolation of voices on the left that are reinforcing memes that distort and misrepresent.

We are all passionate about unseating corrupt selfish actors. I have an inconveniently good memory of many stages on the road of our "long defeat".  I utterly reject threats from the simplistic left. Just stop, it's not helping. If hating makes anyone feel better, find a more hateable object. Otherwise, they're just being used.

"Neoliberalism" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism - has come to be applied to corporate democrats (to accept the label for now) more than to its exploiters in the Koch and Reagan world. Banksters won, thanks to Republicans, and Democrats were blamed for not stopping them.

Democrats adopted Republican initiatives to put rational and compassionate provisions into the execution, and it looked bad. Consider Obama and the Arctic leases: he didn't have the power to reject a Bush obligation, so he made the best of it by taking control rather than earning "points" for rejecting it which would have resulted in Republicans setting its terms. Few people condemning him bothered to check this; one might think they didn't want to know.

It is arguable they went too far; from the outside Bernie's undistinguished legislative career looks more honest. It is arguable on the other side that his rigid adherence (except when it came to refusing gun control to please his constituents and a few other little things that don't get talked about much) is misleading, more about appearance than execution.

To be fair, I read through the Wikipedia which points out that the lines have been blurred and some Democrats have been too accommodating of these ideas.

We each have different ways of dealing with the desperate present.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 12:40:01 AM by Susan Anderson »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2017, 11:31:27 PM »
Getting back to the topic of this thread, how do we get the corporates like Pelosi and Schumer out ?

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2017, 12:13:34 AM »

We are all passionate about unseating corrupt selfish actors. I have an inconveniently good memory of many stages on the road of our "long defeat".  I utterly reject threats from the simplistic left. Just stop, it's not helping. If hating makes anyone feel better, find a more hateable object. Otherwise, they're just being used.



Could you expand on the bolded. Who are "the simplistic left", what threats are you rejecting, who is hating whom, who is being used, who is using them?


This isn't snark - I simply don't understand your references.


Thanks
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2017, 12:44:29 AM »
ASLR wrote: 
"Edit2: In the latest Star Wars trailer Luke Skywalker appears to say: “I only know one truth; it’s time for the Jedi to end.”  Which likely means that in order to stop the Force from cycling endlessly between good and evil; we may soon see "The Last Jedi".

To which I must reply:

Last Jedi Title Refers Only to Luke Skywalker
http://movieweb.com/star-wars-last-jedi-title-meaning-luke-skywalker/

 ;)

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2017, 01:03:12 AM »
Getting back to the topic of this thread, how do we get the corporates like Pelosi and Schumer out ?


The linked article is entitled: "Dems to unveil populist agenda showing Sanders' sway", and indicates that Pelosi and Schumer are working hard to promote a left-leaning 'populist' economic message to help the Democrats retake seats in 2018:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/dems-populist-agenda-sanders-trump-237114

Extract: "Party leaders believe they can only rely on Trump messing up for so long.

Schumer and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi have met twice, according to aides, in addition to multiple staff-level meetings, to flesh out a broader economic agenda that’s expected to emerge as soon as early summer.

The package will be “populist” and designed to “unite both wings of both caucuses,” one senior Democratic aide said. Infrastructure and trade are expected to be key components, another aide confirmed.

The task ahead for Democrats, then, may be to bait Trump into swinging and missing on bread-and-butter economic issues just as he did on health care, while simultaneously plugging their own plan."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2017, 01:16:38 AM »
ASLR wrote: 
"Edit2: In the latest Star Wars trailer Luke Skywalker appears to say: “I only know one truth; it’s time for the Jedi to end.”  Which likely means that in order to stop the Force from cycling endlessly between good and evil; we may soon see "The Last Jedi".

To which I must reply:

Last Jedi Title Refers Only to Luke Skywalker
http://movieweb.com/star-wars-last-jedi-title-meaning-luke-skywalker/

 ;)


If Luke is the last Jedi (singular), then maybe Rey will become a Sith Lord :o

http://movieweb.com/star-wars-8-luke-skywalker-dark-side-rumors/

Extract: "On that poster, Rey is seen thrusting her lightsaber into the sky in an homage to the original A New Hope Poster released in 1977. The lightsaber begins as blue, but turns red. This has many speculating that Rey is the one who turns to the Sith. It has already been confirmed that Rey is quite disappointed in Luke as a Jedi teacher, and not at all the man she thought he'd be."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2017, 04:49:04 AM »
Re: " the simplistic left " : I think that would be me
Re: " what threats " : the threat of choking off the money pipeline to the Democratic party leadership.
Re: " who is using whom " : I am a fellow traveller and useful idiot manipulated personally by Czar Putin.
Re: " ... Pelosi and Schumer are working hard to promote a left-leaning 'populist' economic message ... ":
i'll believe it when i see it, they've lied too many times.

Now, apart from press releases from proven liars, the "simplistic left", "threats" and such, lets talk about 2018. I think part of the answer in supporting noncorp Democrats and unsupporting the corporates. I address some of the states i know well.  US Senator Sherrod Brown is coming up for relection in 2018 in Ohio. I will send some love and money and net traffic and eyeballs  his way.  Bob Casey in PA is coming up for reelection too. Unfortunately wants to overturn Roe vs. Wade so no love for him, lets see if and who he has for primary opponent. Bob Menedez in NJ is exposed as a corrupt crook who probably wont run, so lets see who shows up as the Democratic candidate. Gillibrand in NY needs to crawl out of the pocket of Wall Street, so i will look for primary opponents there as well. Screw the DNC , I already replied to one of their begging letters telling them exactly why I was not supporting any but individual campaigns. (Don't get me wrong, i bribe the right kinds of Republicans too, but this is a thread about corporate Democrats.)

sidd

« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 05:41:47 AM by sidd »

TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2017, 06:19:44 AM »
Good God
Do you really think that our admiration for "The World's Most Respected Politician" makes us "Fellow Travelers"?
Four years ago I probably wouldn't have recognized him on the street. Then Ukraine happened, I got drawn deep into the mess, and my admiration for the man grew on an almost daily basis. Certainly the greatest Statesman of my era.


While I agree that Reagan's presidency proved any minor celeb could be elected, and the Bushes pere et fils reinforced the fact that no great intellect was required, it was actually as Governor of the Once Great State of California that Reagan's image elicited the billing "Sincerity", and my undying enmity.
Watching Reagan's rise undoubtedly inspired Schwarzenegger, The Trumpster, and many yet to come. Once the myth that our leaders needed to be intelligent was rent it could never be restored.


As a Canadian I'm prohibited from sending American politicians anything but my best wishes, rather unfair when the winner inevitably refers to himself as The Leader of the Free World, but wont allow the rest us a vote, or even participation in his election.
The Orange Prankster has killed any goodwill he might have had in Canada with his dairy BS. Canadians don't like growth hormones in milk, and antibiotics are also a no no. If he pursues this, Americans may decide they'd rather serve healthy milk to their babies, then where would the dairy industry be.


Terry


sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2017, 06:40:43 AM »
"As a Canadian I'm prohibited from sending American politicians anything but my best wishes ... "

Oh, come now. Just set up a company in Panama and a cutout in Texas ($2200 a pop for each, according to the Panama Papers) and send as much as you want to the PAC of your choice.

sidd

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2017, 07:17:32 AM »
Re: Do you really think that our admiration for "The World's Most Respected Politician" makes us "Fellow Travelers"?

What who which ? Are you including me in "our" admiration for somebody ? And could that somebody be Putin ?

Ifso i disagree. Putin is a hard man in hard times, but i do not admire him. I recognize his motivations and his actions.

sidd

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2017, 07:45:06 AM »
[Sidd: Wrong on your claims about what I wrote (reminds me how deniers distort my purple prose). In a kind of a way, you prove my point. The sneer about Putin was particularly off base.]

Still ...

OK, Uncle. I see I could have taken the edge off a bit, it does read more aggressive than was intended. We all think we are the subject of each other's posts. Earlier, I thought you were spitting "Anderson". My bad. I'm not talking about you, but the oversimplified memes I see flying around. I'm working on thoughts about what I see all around me.

We are natural allies but you parse and select and skip over a lot. Am I a "corporate Democrat"? If people like me aren't welcome in your party, you have a problem.

Why must we "get rid of" Schumer and Pelosi, rather than Ryan and McConnell? Why is Gorsuch OK? Demanding that regular Democrats who have been fighting these fights for decades and put up with a lot of shit "earn" respect? Am I a proxy because the real enemy isn't available?

Just like the thing with Sanders and Ellison. Perez is not a bad guy. The free-floating condemnations ignore the life histories of all these people. Here's Schumer, for example: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/27/can-chuck-schumer-check-donald-trump. I'm not so ready to give up just yet and throwing out existing Democrats who don't meet demands (threats) looks like giving up to me.

The purity monster is all over the place, and getting worse. This is not the way to win.

OTOH, just to be fair, I do have trouble with the label "corporate Democrat" (the subject of this discussion) which oversimplifies the money problem and leaves out the public service. For example, Elizabeth Warren just had a fine fundraising result, and an interview on Jimmy Fallon, and I don't see her using all that for personal gain. She's as hot on villains as ever. We all live in the world, and we have to decide how we're going to use what talents and worldly assistance we are given. She's just written a book, and I'm sure she'll get plenty of royalties. Where do you draw the line?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 08:03:45 AM by Susan Anderson »

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2017, 08:02:13 AM »
TerryM, perhaps I am distorting; there is an edge to my writing that I sometimes don't see. I did say I'd send a copy of Jane Mayer's Dark Money if I was provided an address and that might answer some of your questions about how we got into this mess.

Please don't take sidd's representation as a proper exegesis of what I wrote. I'll give it some thought and try to explain (though I think that's mostly been done). The trolling of Bernieworld by Trumpians and Russian hackers is an actual thing (described elsewhere), and I'm well aware that real Bernie supporters wanted nothing to do with them. I don't do Facebook, so I've had to try to evaluate the insidious effects by the proliferation of terminology like "corporate Democrats" as a condemnation of way too many good public servants. I first entered this conversation because when Neven started a topic with this premise, I felt this oversimplification of a complex problem had gone too far. It's enabling the real criminals, who are out in plain sight. The more they see us divided, the happier they are.

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2017, 08:10:32 AM »
Susan, we are allied on some issues and not on others. My point was exactly that not everybody is aligned with sinister foreign influences when we call out the corporate Democrats.

Are you a corporate Democrat ? I doubt it. Do you support some ? I think so. But lets move on.

You ask: Why must we "get rid of" Schumer and Pelosi, rather than Ryan and McConnell?

The first two and the last are corporate slaves, Ryan is actually not.  But this thread is about Democrats. I would be glad to discuss how to rid the Republican party of the corporate whores on another thread. Or perhaps Neven could change the title of this one and broaden the thread.

Elizabeth Warren has my support. She's up for reelection, but i dont get up Massachusetts way much. I have been sending CFPB detail on credit and mortgage fraud by the banks and whenever Cordray returns to OH politics he has my support.

Lets talk about 2018.

sidd


TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2017, 08:40:29 AM »
sidd
Sorry for misunderstanding your stance on Putin.
My Bad.


Susan
Thanks for the offer of the book, but border customs charges are prohibitive. You express yourself well, and I'm not above asking for clarification.
I signed up for Facebook years ago, and promptly forgot my password. I've never tried to retrieve it.
I doubt that you remember, but I contacted you once years ago on some climate blog asking if you might be a long lost cousin from Hamilton. Your name is not unique.  :)


Terry


Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2017, 09:37:27 PM »
Terry, yes, I remember that. It is exhausting answering every item, and I feel I have already said more than enough (and as Sidd remarks, my views take me off topic, since I'm more interested in defeating Republicans than condemning and punishing any Democrats except those who voted with Republicans). I use Amazon and the shipping is not prohibitive (though the moral hazard should be: guilty as charged). It covers the way that Democrats have been screwed into submission over the last four decades. Here's McKibben in a review of DM about REDMAP, http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/03/10/koch-brothers-new-brand/:

Even more importantly, they gained 675 seats in state houses across the country, giving the GOP control of the redistricting process as the new census was released. This was the careful culmination of a dream called REDMAP, funded by, among others, the North Carolina variety store magnate Art Pope, a kind of junior Koch, and it all but guaranteed that conservatives would dominate American political life at least through the next census in 2020. Mayer describes the endless fundraising for REDMAP, “especially at honeypots like the Koch summit.”

More: "State for Sale" http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/10/10/state-for-sale

One issue I have with this topic is that from abroad it is all too easy to miss everything else that has gone on and adopt the views of vocal supporters of one section of the population and ignore or condemn others.

Today, my Medium had a couple of unrelated items, one about Bernie and another about the closing of the Chicago EPA office (Great Lakes, good-bye).

Sidd, the idea that Ryan is anything but pure evil is gobsmacking! It's true that he is a nearly "pure" Ayn Randian, and believes himself to be acting on principle. He's another illustration of my problem with the "purity monster".

https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00004357&type=I

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/opinion/and-jesus-said-unto-paul-of-ryan.html
"How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of Heaven,” Jesus mused to himself. “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter heaven.”

“Let me teach you about love, Jesus — tough love!” Pious Paul explained. “You need a sustainable pro-business model. And you need to give people freedom, Jesus, the freedom to suffer misery and poverty.”
....
“Blessed are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of God,” Jesus said. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received comfort.”

“Oh, come on, Jesus,” Pious Paul protested. “Don’t go socialist on me again. Please don’t encourage class warfare. The best way to help the needy is to give public money to the rich. That then inspires the poor to work harder, galvanizes the sick to become healthy, forces the lepers to solve their own problems rather than kick back and depend on others. That’s why any realistic health plan has to focus on providing less coverage for the poor, and big tax benefits for the rich. When millions of people lose health care, that’s when a country is great again!”


On the other hand, a look at Laden's blog shows me that he sees the bias and fact-free assertions coming from those attacking Bernie; I may have taken descriptions of his attacks on Perez from a secondhand source that was not telling the truth. This happens, and makes this discussion, if one is uncompromising, all the more difficult to have.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2017, 10:13:40 PM »
I agree with Susan's stance on this topic.

I think Corporate Democrats are a symptom of legal (Supreme Court-created) realities.  I think many of the CD's are a necessary evil, not a problem to be attacked directly.

Citizen's United opened a floodgate to corporate money in elections, directed towards third-party opinion-movers.  Without corporate funding, Democrats would be hopelessly out-gunned by well-financed Republicans.

Much of the commentary in favor of kicking out the CD's seems to pre-suppose that the election loses of 2016 happened because the Democrats failed to offer sufficiently progressive candidates.    Many seem to believe that Sanders would have prevailed in a general election against Trump.  I think this is absolute nonsense.  Sanders would have lost far more badly than Hillary.  America is very, very unlikely to ever elect an avowed "Socialist," however he may try to nuance that label.  Note that I think Sanders (with a Democratic Congress) could do the US a world of good.  But he's never getting elected, except in the quite liberal state of Vermont.

As evidence, I'd offer two articles from Salon.com that analyzed who exactly voted for Trump who had previously supported Obama:

New election theory: Did “working-class whites” switch from Obama to Trump because the economy was better?

http://www.salon.com/2017/03/30/new-election-theory-did-working-class-whites-switch-from-obama-to-trump-because-the-economy-was-better/

New election analysis: Yes, it really was blatant racism that gave us President Donald Trump
http://www.salon.com/2017/04/19/new-election-analysis-yes-it-really-was-blatant-racism-that-gave-us-president-donald-trump/

These are the same "Reagan Democrats" who want worker-friendly governance, but don't like minorities, gays, muslims, or immigrants.  They really wouldn't have supported Sanders, not as long as they already have jobs themselves.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 10:18:53 PM by SteveMDFP »

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2017, 12:01:16 AM »
Re: Last presidential election

ANES survey just came out, major points:

1)Clinton got the rich and lost the poor From the Washington post article:

"2016 was plainly an anomaly. While the wealthy are usually most likely to vote for the Republican, they didn’t this time; and while the poor are usually less likely to vote for the Republican, they were unusually supportive of Trump. And the degree to which the wealthy disdained the 2016 Republican candidate was without recent historical precedent."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/04/17/racism-motivated-trump-voters-more-than-authoritarianism-or-income-inequality/?utm_term=.918adbe626ef

2)racists swing vote actually went for obama in  2008 and 2012. From the Booman tribune

"This data can be compared to previous elections going back to 1988. What’s surprising isn’t that Trump voters are more racist than Clinton voters, because the same finding is there for people who voted for Romney, McCain, Dole and the two Bushes. In fact, on three of the four questions that test racial attitudes, Trump’s voters were less racist than their Republican predecessors (the fourth question was a tie).

The big difference is among Democrats, or Hillary Clinton voters, who are far less racist in their attitudes than the Democrats who voted in any recent election, including the two for Barack Obama. The implications are bizarre, suggesting that a lot of racially bigoted people were willing to vote for Obama against an opponent who didn’t appeal too directly to their racism, but who flocked to Trump when he made “political incorrectness” central to his pitch. To be explicit here, a lot of racist Democrats voted for Obama and didn’t vote for Clinton, and they did it because of racism."

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/4/17/114259/800

The first point is why supporting Corporate Democrats will lose elections.

Re:  "Without corporate funding, Democrats would be hopelessly out-gunned by well-financed Republicans."

Obama and Bernie crowdfunded their campaigns.

Re: " the idea that Ryan is anything but pure evil is gobsmacking!"

I said nothing about Ryan's moral standing. My point was that he is not as much of a corporate slave as the three others in my statement.

I accept that some think that there is no alternative to supporting Corporate Democrats. Well, I suppose this thread is not for them.

Back to the topic at hand: Who are the corporate democrats coming up for reelection in 2018 ? Who are their likely primary opponents ? If none exist, can an opponent be found and persuaded to run in the primary ? Pelosi is coming up for relection in the House, she has large sacks of money but no one is invulnerable, as the Hillary loss proved. I note with regret that Schumer is not up for reelection for a while.

sidd
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 12:07:00 AM by sidd »

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2017, 12:46:28 AM »
Make no mistake, after months of research, I left Bernie and joined Hillary. I still like her positions. I make excuses for things she's done I don't like (I've made lists in earlier comments). I dislike Bernie's polarizations and simplifications, and the attack language adopted by his supporters. It has caused a deep rupture in my friendships, but I can do no other. I don't like bullying.

Let's avoid taking sides on this. Sidd makes many valid points, and the subject of this forum is "corporate Democrats". I am eager for people to avoid circular firing squads, and participate in absolute opposition to the existing power structure on the Republican side.

I find it inexcusable to excuse Ryan and Gorsuch, I will say that. Otherwise, if my efforts encourage people to take "sides" I apologize.

Please look up Shaughnessy Naughton, a person I've supported (with the science march coming up Saturday, which just happens to be earth day and my birthday as well) like Elizabeth Warren and Ed Markey. The latter is a near-perfect example of an unsung hero of true public service.

As a woman, I would love to absolutely reject "hair and makeup". But as a realist, I know despite Indira Gandhi, Goldar Meir, and Angela Merkel, in this country we're stuck. Men can be ugly (Trump!); women can't.

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2017, 01:03:19 AM »
And dammit! from my about to be 69 years (wish I could skip that one and just be 70 for 2 years) I do know one thing.

Hatred hurts the hater more than the hated.

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2017, 01:28:42 AM »
It's really a stunning contrast to see what democratic voters require of their candidates compared to what republican voters require of theirs. Granting the fact that to regain power you need to demonstrate so much more than the opposition, but Democratic candidates suffer the Goldilocks conundrum: not too old, not too young, not too callow, not too scripted etc. Contrast this with Republican candidates who just need to shout, "Tax cuts, no abortion, immigrants out!" and they're golden. Progressive voters may need to re-calibrate their standards and stop searching for perfect; it's the enemy of rescuing this country from abject failure and pillage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/opinion/georgia-didnt-affirm-trump.html#permid=22202179

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2017, 01:42:54 AM »
1) I am not excusing Ryan, Gorsuch or anyone else.  I will be glad to discuss getting Republicans out of power on another thread.

2) And, of course, happy birthday Susan !

sidd

SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #95 on: April 20, 2017, 02:26:53 AM »
Re: Last presidential election
[snip]

The big difference is among Democrats, or Hillary Clinton voters, who are far less racist in their attitudes than the Democrats who voted in any recent election, including the two for Barack Obama.

[snip]

Exactly my point, and the gist of the Salon articles.  Hillary lost the racists who might vote Democrat.  She didn't lose because she was inadquately  progressive/pure/non-corporate, she lost because she was seen as too progressive for those "Reagan Democrat" types.

And if we're going to kick out Corporate Democrats, are there ANY who are pure enough to stay in?   Elizabeth Warren, the justified darling of progressives everywhere (including me) isn't corporate-free at all.  In fact, when it comes to medical device manufacturers, she's been a corporate whore:

Elizabeth Warren Goes to Bat for Medical Device Industry
http://time.com/3695581/elizabeth-warren-medical-device-lobbyists-obamacare

So, where do we draw the line between Democrats we might support and Democrats whom we try to defeat?  I think the effort to draw such a line dooms the party.  As imperfect and corporate-influenced as it is, the Democrats are alll better than the Republicans.  "A house divided cannot stand."

The Republicans have been having a mirror-image internal struggle for a decade.  The reactionary "base" has been trying to shun the "RINOs."  They blame establishment/moderate
Republicans for their party's falures, too.  They've long claimed that only a true-blue Conservative can inspire the broad American voting public.  They didn't get the President they wanted at all, what they have is a deeply divided party whose divisions are preventing them from governing when they have both houses and the presidency on the R side. 

Attempting to do the mirror-image effort on the D side is pure folly.

DrTskoul

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2017, 02:50:35 AM »
Make no mistake, after months of research, I left Bernie and joined Hillary. I still like her positions. I make excuses for things she's done I don't like (I've made lists in earlier comments). I dislike Bernie's polarizations and simplifications, and the attack language adopted by his supporters. It has caused a deep rupture in my friendships, but I can do no other. I don't like bullying.

Let's avoid taking sides on this. Sidd makes many valid points, and the subject of this forum is "corporate Democrats". I am eager for people to avoid circular firing squads, and participate in absolute opposition to the existing power structure on the Republican side.

I find it inexcusable to excuse Ryan and Gorsuch, I will say that. Otherwise, if my efforts encourage people to take "sides" I apologize.

Please look up Shaughnessy Naughton, a person I've supported (with the science march coming up Saturday, which just happens to be earth day and my birthday as well) like Elizabeth Warren and Ed Markey. The latter is a near-perfect example of an unsung hero of true public service.

As a woman, I would love to absolutely reject "hair and makeup". But as a realist, I know despite Indira Gandhi, Goldar Meir, and Angela Merkel, in this country we're stuck. Men can be ugly (Trump!); women can't.

+inf and happy birthday...
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #97 on: April 20, 2017, 03:24:15 AM »
Re: Warren and medical tech bill

Not enuf to make me lose support for her. I am no absolutist, i pick the ones i will support and those i consider beyond the pale. For example i am looking at house democrats in ohio for 2018. I dont trust beatty or fudge, and tim ryan is pretty far out there on some of his positions, but i trust him more than the other two.

sidd

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #98 on: April 20, 2017, 05:42:09 PM »
I don't disagree with my colleagues to my left, my problem is "how". If I could wave a magic wand and take away the excess millions (let alone billions) from the looters and hoarders, and take big money out of influence, courts, and elections, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But refusing to collaborate with people of goodwill who work within the system is, I'm convinced, a way to encourage strife and lose the bigger battles. As soon as "sides" are taken between good people, energy is wasted. Cautionary note: that goes both ways.

Language like "put the shiv in" doesn't work for me to describe a complex situation. I did a search and don't know what to make of this: https://www.google.com/search?q=what+did+the+democratic+party+do+to+tulsi+gabbard

I read a couple of the articles, and with this discussion in mind, reserved judgment. I think this reservation of judgment and tolerance for opposing views is what I'm begging for. This with her support from Bannon looks awful, but it's not what it seems. https://ivn.us/2017/02/09/why-do-trump-supporters-love-democrat-tulsi-gabbard/

If I were Hawaiian, I would definitely vote for her. Her crossing of conventional lines makes her unusual, and the only other congresscrittur I know of who met with Assad is Nancy Pelosi (! - years ago) and at the time it didn't look good to me.

People who thought Trump would listen to people like Gabbard are receiving a lesson in reality now.
---
NEW, important, real reason I am back again: Last night I watched a terrific interview with Elizabeth Warren on The Maddow Show. (Yes, I know, some of you don't care for her.) Unfortunately, the link I used is closed this morning, and MSNBC may not be available across the pond or this soon. Anyone who doesn't know Elizabeth Warren, she's about as close to ideal as anyone could get. Hard to believe she's 67! Here's a possible starting point.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/warren-trump-poised-to-deliver-knock-out-blow-to-middle-class-924959299911

[Please do try to find it. Skip over the intro (Russian influence on and collaboration with the Trump campaign ... and now Russians/Exxon want sanctions removed for Arctic drilling (Tillerson now being SoS)). The version, now blocked, that I watched had Warren coming in at minute 25.]
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 05:52:35 PM by Susan Anderson »

Susan Anderson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #99 on: April 20, 2017, 05:54:28 PM »
ah! Tim Ryan (sidd) is not Paul Ryan (the "Irish undertaker). I may have encouraged confusion there. More power to ya! ;)