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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #350 on: July 01, 2017, 09:31:48 PM »
Lee Fang is usually worth reading.  Here he is on a corporate democrat dinosaur laughing about single payer, echoed by corporate republican dinosaur.

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/01/dick-gephardt-single-payer-health-insurance-lobbyists/

sidd


A very good link sidd, thanks.


As someone who has been very ill under both the American and Canadian models my belief is that if I'd remained under American care I would have died some years ago. Not just dead, but dead with very little left to pass on to my survivors.


I had the best insurance available in Nevada, but co-payments, prescription coverage, and the quality of care that was available would have assured those results. There is a reason that every other advanced country uses some form of single payer healthcare, and the reason is that it's the only way to keep the insurance companies from deciding who lives or dies, and at what level of discomfort.


American voters have finally seen through the propaganda blitz, but now find themselves with no party willing to offer single payer as a plank on the party platform. The Republicans sold out back in Reagan's day. The Democrats faltered under Bill Clinton, and have been unwilling to budge since. Obama had a mandate, but chose to ignore his constituents.


Progressive Democrats would win the coming elections if they can convince the voters that they really are going to provide single payer healthcare this time around. No weasel words, no subtle hints that they would make a change, just a promise that this time they will stand up and enact a law similar to Canada's that will cover all health issues in the country.


I'm not holding my breath.
Terry

jai mitchell

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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #352 on: July 02, 2017, 08:51:14 PM »
Essay by Assange on the Democratic Party. He is pessimistic.

"The Democratic establishment has vortexed the party's narrative energy into hysteria about Russia (a state with a lower GDP than South Korea). It is starkly obvious that were it not for this hysteria insurgent narratives of the type promoted by Bernie Sanders would rapidly dominate the party's base and its relationship with the public. Without the "We didn't lose, Russia won" narrative the party's elite and those who exist under its patronage would be purged for being electorally incompetent and ideologically passe."

"The Democrat establishment needs the support of the security sector and media barons to push this diversionary conspiracy agenda, so they ingratiate themselves with these two classes leading to further perceptions that the Democrats act on behalf of an entrenched power elite. Eventually, Trump or Pence will 'merge' with the security state leaving Democrats in a vulnerable position ... "

That last point i have quoted is probably what will do the Democrats in, the Trump does an alliance with the torturers and cuts the Democrats out. Assange goes on to state that the Democratic Party is unsalvageable. I don't know if i agree yet, but it is getting close.

Read the whole thing:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spvqcj

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #353 on: July 02, 2017, 09:38:05 PM »
My word! Even Booman admits that the Democratic Party's power structure has lost its mind.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/7/2/11276/73850

which links to

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/liberal-fever-swamps/530736/

The latter is in the same vein as the Rensin piece from the  LA review of books that I posted previously.

"People like Mensch, Claude Taylor, Andrea Chalupa, Eric Garland, and Leah McElrath feed their followers a steady diet of highly provocative speculation, rumor, and innuendo that makes it sound as if Trump’s presidency—and, really, the entire Republican Party—is perpetually on the verge of a spectacular meltdown.

The most prolific of the conspiracy-mongers tend to focus on the Russia scandal, weaving a narrative so sensationalistic and complex that it could pass for a Netflix political drama. Theirs is a world where it is acceptable to allege that hundreds of American politicians, journalists, and government officials are actually secret Russian agents; that Andrew Breitbart was murdered by Vladimir Putin; that the Kremlin has “kompromat” on everyone, and oh-by-the-way a presidency-ending sex tape is going to drop any day now."

Coppins has unkind things to say about the Palmer Report as well.

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Jim Pettit

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #354 on: July 02, 2017, 11:25:21 PM »
I've found that to maintain my own sanity it's best to avoid the fevered ramblings of disgruntled or self-promoting nutcases like Assange, Mensch, Booman, Rensin, Taylor, Chalupa, Palmer, and the like. Why anyone would choose to wade around the fetid, ankle-deep sewage that's glurged forth from their keyboards and pooled around their pseudo-journalistic perches is beyond me, especially when there's so much intelligent, cogent, coherent, pithy, and truthful writing around. Yeah, they occassionally offer the interesting tidbit, and--rarely--do so before almost anyone else. But for the most part, their ramblings are seldom worth the bytes they use.

There exist a large number of writers around who have done, and continue to do, an amazing job staying on top of not just the ever-expanding Russia investigation, but also Trump's downward spiral into something approaching dementia, his administration's rapid destruction of governmental norms, and Congress's headlong rush to deny lower- and middle-class people affordable health care or their earned benefits. On top of that, they also manage to write thoughtful treatises on the infiltration of the DNC by pro-corporate GOP-lite types, the need for better and more progressive-minded candidates, America's almost overnight move away from reality and science, and so on. And they do this with moderation; for instance, these writers are perfectly capable of reporting on the mounting evidence showing that Trump and/or his people worked with a hostile foreign entity without falling into Menschian, Red Scare-type BS, for they know that the former can indeed exist without the latter, and in fact probably does.

I wish more people would read them instead of the low-rent liberal versions of Hannity, Limbaugh, and Beck named above. I really do...




Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #355 on: July 02, 2017, 11:25:38 PM »



!Thanks Obama!
Slowly but surely methinks Dore is an agent of the Koch brothers...

wili

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #356 on: July 03, 2017, 01:16:35 AM »
Jim P wrote: "...there's so much intelligent, cogent, coherent, pithy, and truthful writing around..."

Can you point us toward those you think rise to this mark? (Not being snarky, just looking for good reading recommendations. Thanks in advance.  :))
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

jai mitchell

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #357 on: July 03, 2017, 01:45:21 AM »



!Thanks Obama!
Slowly but surely methinks Dore is an agent of the Koch brothers...

that is because you have absolutely no idea what you talk about.  If he was an agent of the Kochs would he then discuss climate change as the most important issue of our time???  You obviously have not watched much of his stuff.
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sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #358 on: July 03, 2017, 07:05:49 AM »
I should point out that my references to articles does not mean I endorse the author's entire corpus. I do try to quote those passages which struck me as cogent, and indicate where i disagree. And I do ask that one read the whole thing.

That said, I think that Assange is a skilled analyst, here he is on the differential effects of leaks on closed and open organizations:

"The more secretive or unjust an organization is, the more leaks induce fear and paranoia in its leadership and planning coterie. This must result in minimization of efficient internal communications mechanisms (an increase in cognitive "secrecy tax") and consequent system-wide cognitive decline resulting in decreased ability to hold onto power as the environment demands adaption. Hence in a world where leaking is easy, secretive or unjust systems are nonlinearly hit relative to open, just systems. Since unjust systems, by their nature induce opponents, and in many places barely have the upper hand, mass leaking leaves them exquisitely vulnerable to those who seek to replace them with more open forms of governance. "

https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Non_Linear_Effects_of_Leaks_on_Unjust_Systems_of_Governance

Describes both the effect of leaks on USGov intelligence organizations as well as the DNC in the last election.

sidd

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #359 on: July 03, 2017, 04:25:39 PM »



!Thanks Obama!
Slowly but surely methinks Dore is an agent of the Koch brothers...

that is because you have absolutely no idea what you talk about.  If he was an agent of the Kochs would he then discuss climate change as the most important issue of our time???  You obviously have not watched much of his stuff.
Here is a 2014 speech of Bernie on the Koch brother(s) agrnda:


Here's a new book on their econo-philosophical background:
Historian: Republican Push to Replace Obamacare Reflects Radical Right's Stealth Plan for America
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/6/29/republican_push_to_replace_obamacare_reflects

I should post some more stuff. Later.

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #360 on: July 03, 2017, 04:33:58 PM »
Citing a comedian like Dore as a source of facts that are more accurate than the MSM, plays right into Trump's hands, allowing him to label any MSM reports that are critical of him as being fake news; because he won the election (beating the Deep State including the MSM and the Corporate Democrats) which gives him the right to decide what is truth and what is not.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #361 on: July 03, 2017, 05:03:26 PM »
Who is citing Jimmy Dore as a source of facts? I post his videos because of his arguments. He's not perfect. He has something of an ego (balanced by his self-mocking) and sometimes he rants too much, but overall his arguments are strong, much stronger than what I occasionally read here from folks, saying that 'we' have to support Corporate Democrats if 'we' want to beat the dishonest Republicans.

What plays right into the (tiny) hands of Trump, is fake news/propaganda from what is perceived as left-leaning mainstream media. If, for instance, you're going to keep pushing the meme that all 17 US intelligence agencies have agreed that Russia tried to influence the 2016 election to benefit Donald Trump, whereas it was 3-4 agencies, you play into the hands of Donald Trump.

But to return to the topic: Corporate Democrats play into the hands of Trump on a daily basis. That's why they either have to be kicked out of the Democratic Party, together with all the superdelegates, or a third party needs to be started.

Jimmy Dore talks about this a lot, when he's not talking about Trump or something else, which is why I and others post most of his videos here.
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Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #362 on: July 03, 2017, 05:57:23 PM »
But I occasionally watch Secular Talk as well with Kyle Kulinski:

Corporate Democrat Blocks Single Payer Healthcare In California
! No longer available

I think Kulinski's arguments are convincing, but maybe there's a side to this story I haven't heard yet.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #363 on: July 03, 2017, 06:49:17 PM »
saying that 'we' have to support Corporate Democrats if 'we' want to beat the dishonest Republicans.
at least they should not pander to Republican propaganda memes. And they should not belittle the achievements of other Democrats, e.g. Obama.

Dore did more than belittle: Now that folks suddenly stand up for decent healthcare (after Obama showed them!) suddenly Obama is an arsehole for not having done enough? Now suddenly he should have done what Hillary tried in vain last century? Against the Koch funded propaganda apparatus (Cato Inst., Heritage foundation, Tea party zombies, etc.) that left Hillary buried in mindboggling smear?
Sorry, this is political suicide squad par excellance.

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #364 on: July 03, 2017, 07:35:59 PM »
I believe Obama and especially Clinton have sufficiently proven they are beholden to corporate interests, and no, this is not a Republican meme. Both parties right now are serving the oligarch class, with Trump barging in right between them with his band of extremist oligarchs who apparently weren't satisfied enough with how they were being served by the nutty GOP and the two-faced Corporate Democrats. I guess this was inevitable, given how effed up the system is.

You can only break through this by getting a large part of the population behind you again. For that you need to inspire them to come out and vote. And you inspire them by talking about the issues they face in their daily lives, and MEAN IT. You convince them you mean it by showing you don't take corporate money, for starters.

You don't convince nearly enough people with the old mantra of 'GOP evil, Democrats lesser evil'. You don't inspire anyone with a pretty-looking Corporate Democrat who will just continue to throw money at Wall Street and expand foreign wars. I would say the last election has proven this beyond debate.

Martin, your kind of thinking results in corporate stooges like Hillary Clinton staying in power, which inevitably leads to disasters like Trump. We can't afford any more of this business-as-usual duopoly back-and-forth. The vicious cycle needs to be broken. You need to either change the way you think, or step aside and let the younger generations assert themselves.

The longer this takes, the bloodier it will get.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #365 on: July 03, 2017, 09:11:54 PM »
Right now I could write a few pages of stuff...
First, last friday's Bill Maher show had a ton to say. Even the wørd gerrymandering appeared, twice...

Second, the (un)surprising appearance of an old anti Clintons smear propaganda polit artist, Peter W. Smith. Now all America wants to see his death certificate... (Was it Hillary's assassin squad again? Bwahaaahahah..)
So I guess I wait till after the July 4th holidays...

Third, the Republican corporate propaganda swamp, after trillions of dollar-years, and Russiagate: Which, as Maher's guest stressed, is about full-scale psychological warfare, and not just hacking. I think there were several players in this internet psycho war, kind of a tri-el, not just a duel America-Russia. But they found extremely fertile soil, prepared since the times of Reagan and Thatcher.

How to counter this massive dis-information warmachine (and socially engineered endemic popular stupidity) by grassroots efforts? Good luck...
My first advice, what I try to explain here: First, do no selfharm.

Here's Bernie again:
Quote
And we just saw this a few weeks ago in Montana’s Rob Quist. And what happened to Rob is going to continue to happen. What happened to Rob is he did a great job raising money from small individual contributions. I think it was 25 bucks a contribution. Fantastic! Raised over $5 million, $6 million. Fantastic! Did great. But—but the billionaire class got very, very nervous, and they put almost $7 million (??) in independent expenditures by—and by a 10-to-1 ratio, their independent expenditures outspent Rob’s. And he lost that election.
(my ?? and my emph.)
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/7/3/bernie_sanders_on_resisting_trump_why

Here is one of their prime strategies. And methinks Jimmy Dore is happily colluding by unnecessarily smearing Obama:
Quote
Cambridge Analytica worked on campaigns in several key states for a Republican political action committee. Its key objective, according to a memo the Observer has seen, was “voter disengagement” and “to persuade Democrat voters to stay at home”
(my emph.)
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy
 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 09:26:31 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #366 on: July 03, 2017, 09:22:00 PM »
Quote
How to counter this massive machine by grassroots efforts? Good luck...

Why aren't you saying outright what you think? Because you seem to imply that the only way to 'win', is by accepting large amounts of money from corporations. Or is there some other way you won't share with us?

And yes, the soil is fertile, which makes it so important that you don't throw superseeds on it (you know, the content of what was leaked from the DNC servers).

I applaud you for continuing to defend frackmasters, warmongers and Wall Street servants Obama and Clinton. It's okay. Heidegger too came around eventually and saw the error of his ways.  ;D
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #367 on: July 03, 2017, 09:44:14 PM »
There was a Republican meme that said that there was no difference between the two parties, (so why not vote for the monsters, at least we hate Mexicans), was the unwritten sub-plot of the meme.
Unfortunately the Republican lie became the factual truth when Corporate Democrats began feeding from the same trough as the Republicans.


Today we have right wing Republicans fighting against right wing Democrats, and after the business day ends they both go back to the corporate table to power up for the next day's battle.
Sanders wasn't the only one who proved you could win an election without deep pockets funding your campaign. Trump was outspent every step of the way. He won. Sanders won. The Republicans and the Democrats both lost even though they outspent the winners by obscene amounts.


Sanders and Trump had the freedom to say things that voters wanted to hear, and that the Corporate class didn't want spoken.


Trump ranted about building a wall that would have kept low wage Mexicans from working Corporate assembly lines, and depressing wages. Sanders spoke of one payer healthcare, one payer healthcare that would free Americans from their job linked health insurance. Bad for the Insurance Business, bad for the Pharmaceutical Business, bad for Big Business, bad in fact for everyone except the people.


Trump won the election, (with more than a little help from the FBI), and Sanders might have won if the Corporate DNC hadn't cut him off at the knees. Hillary ran an entirely negative campaign because her sponsors wouldn't let her speak of the things that would have won her votes. Vote for me because he's an ass won't win elections, but what else could she say?


She couldn't offer single payer, Obama had already burned that bridge. She couldn't say she'd do away with tuition debt because the banks would have pulled their funding. She couldn't promise to bring home jobs because the Multinationals wouldn't approve. She couldn't promise to bring home the troops without facing defunding from the MIC.


She was left to run a campaign with no message of hope, no promise that things would get better, no redress of past grievances. A campaign in fact whose only promise was that Trump wouldn't hold the reigns.
And she damn near pulled it off.
That was one of the lessons from the last elections. The Corporations are now so powerful that they came very close to winning on a campaign based only on fear.


The Republicans are joined to Big Business by the hip. If Democrats can cut the cord, sever their ties to Big Money, it will free them to run campaigns promising things that voters actually want. They can win in almost every district if they throw off the shackles that Corporate funding demands.


Campaign for single payer healthcare. Campaign to end foreign "Police Actions". Campaign to cut the military budget to 2% of GDP, about what our allies pay. Campaign to forgive tuition debt and to offer free tuition to all. Campaign against Corporate welfare.


The Corporations will be furious, but the voters do, in the end, control who wins elections.


Terry


Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #368 on: July 04, 2017, 12:01:48 AM »
Quote
How to counter this massive machine by grassroots efforts? Good luck...

Why aren't you saying outright what you think? Because you seem to imply that the only way to 'win', is by accepting large amounts of money from corporations.
I hope I don't imply either-ors. The either-or is one of the great propaganda tools wielded by the right, in all its glory, from messaging down to gerrymandering a primitive either-or voting system.

Quote
Or is there some other way you won't share with us?
Transcend the tertium non datur. The Buddha already knew there is a Middle Way. Game theorists and elementary particle theorists see a triality (not a duality) at the heart of things political and material. Blablabla... :)

But it's not just about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater (some U.S. billionaires are social democrat minded) while baby Trump is still in the tub (bathed by the frackmasters, warmongers and Wall Street servants high priests and vultures)

Quote
And yes, the soil is fertile, which makes it so important that you don't throw superseeds on it (you know, the content of what was leaked from the DNC servers).
I haven't yet seen this seed very potent. (The DNC is no scientists, so there sure is more spice to be found than in the 2009 climategate hack...) Seems to need some magic to germinate or some artificial widespread massive seeding (via bots and trolls and some Berners).

Quote
I applaud you for continuing to defend frackmasters, warmongers and Wall Street servants Obama and Clinton. It's okay. Heidegger too came around eventually and saw the error of his ways.  ;D
The later Heidegger is another critic of classical metaphysics and the machinations of the tertium non datur.

Right now we have more Wall Street (and the worst of it) in the White House than was ever imaginable. The coal barons and worst of industrial fossilists are dictating environmental politics and the State of Exxon governs the State Department. Social security, education, etc. is in the hands of characters out of a Dickens novel.

Allthewhile Jimmy Dore calls Obama an asshole for not having introduced single payer healthcare. Without Obama's success, what would the wind behind Bernie be? Would the resistance against the fossil corporatist agenda be as fierce as it is now? Obamacare has shown a lot of people what they have to lose. That's one major  fuel of the right's propaganda vilification of Obama. Not the right chorus to join.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 12:10:25 AM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #369 on: July 04, 2017, 07:52:56 AM »
Is the pressure from activists starting to have an effect?

Cory Booker “Pauses” Taking Bribes For Time Being
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #370 on: July 04, 2017, 10:01:08 PM »
Another good video from Dore today (he has another one on 'Wimbleton' which is horrible, so I'm not posting it  :D ), and I like the speech from the spokesperson for the CA Nurses:

CA Nurses Are Sick Of Democrats-Threaten To Leave Party!
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #371 on: July 05, 2017, 12:48:05 AM »
Thanks Neven


I'm not sure that anyone who never lived in the US can appreciate how broken the health care system is and has been.
If there is one cause that should and can bring American voters together it's eliminating health insurance. The parasites have feasted on rich and poor alike for decades and it's time for them to go. They take your health, your money, and finally your life - and give back nothing.
Health Insurance causes bankruptcy, suicide, physical pain, mental anguish, and all so the parasites can build bigger castles, fly bigger planes, and buy more powerful politicians. No single industry causes more harm.
If the present Democratic party can't ween themselves from this teet they deserve their fate.


It was Hillary that drove me from the party, it will be Pelosi, the DNC, and the California state leadership that keeps me away. California Democrats need a new vote on leadership with no "super delegates" now, or the few Democrats that show up to vote in 2018 will ensure a Republican sweep of the state. After their gerrymandering the 2020 presidential election will be up for grabs.


When your enemies screw you over it's expected. When your friends do it it's treason.
Terry


jai mitchell

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #372 on: July 05, 2017, 02:00:44 AM »
best Fourth of July news I've had in a long time!!!   8)  8)  8)

would post the vid but I don't know how. . .

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jai mitchell

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #373 on: July 05, 2017, 03:45:52 PM »
Scott Pruitt's EPA just declared that COAL ASH is NOT a hazardous material!!!!!!


http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/epas-new-rules-say-coal-ash-not-hazardous-waste-n271986    :o :o :o


-------------
oh crap! that was Obama!!!!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:42:24 PM by jai mitchell »
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #374 on: July 05, 2017, 04:29:07 PM »
The linked commentary from Gary Kasparov reminds us of the dangers of abandoning the center for extremes at the left or right.  Food for thought for those of you doing the Chef's Finger Kiss whilst plotting the demise of the corporate Democrats and the ascension of Multiple Home Owner and Primary Loser Bernie Sanders and his Bros to the throne of power.

The political center cannot hold — and that’s bad for all of us

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/democracy-post/wp/2017/06/29/the-political-center-cannot-hold-and-thats-bad-for-all-of-us/

The extremes are thriving these days on both sides of the Atlantic. The traditional swing of the ideological pendulum from right to left and back again is gaining speed — and it is increasingly bypassing the center. Decades of decline and apathy under the establishment status quo have empowered the far right and the far left, both true believers and opportunists.
---
Will the pendulum slow in the middle, or will it race by once again? If Trump was America’s Brexit moment, will there also be an American Corbyn, ready to meet the far right’s coloring-book fascism and isolationism with socialism and, well, its own version of isolationism?

I’m very worried about the answer, whether it comes from familiar faces like Sanders and Warren or in the guise of some younger, more charismatic figure with whom angry young liberals will identify even more. The siren song of socialism has always been a popular tune among the young. For all the horrors it spawned, socialism possessed a utopian narrative that was genuinely attractive to many. The honeyed promises of justice and equality appealed to those who failed to see that the only way to guarantee equality is coercion, and that those in charge of that coercion soon become “more equal than others,” in George Orwell’s flawless phrase from “Animal Farm.” That every communist state has also been a brutal authoritarian state is not a coincidence — it is the natural and inevitable outcome.
---
Inequality in the free world is a huge and growing problem, and the far right’s answer is to demonize immigrants and to try to turn back the clock. Unfortunately, the left is just as focused on scoring political points instead of acknowledging that any remedy will be complex and difficult. Meeting ignorance with ignorance of an equal and opposite value is no solution.
---
The center must respond with ambitious plans and bold leaders that address these conditions in order to compete with the heated rhetoric and outlandish ideas coming from the extremists on the left and the right. Just as Trump was against so much and for so little, being against him can only be the beginning. The opposition must work to ensure that the backlash against Trump doesn’t result in something even worse (as hard as it is to imagine such a possibility now).

I have been asked frequently to use my life experience with authoritarian regimes to shed light on Trump’s plans and behaviors, which are very troubling indeed. But I hope the anti-Trump forces on the left will also heed me when I say that those who believe that the government cannot solve anything are easily matched in their potential to do harm by those who believe the government can solve everything.

jai mitchell

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #375 on: July 05, 2017, 04:48:35 PM »
for those of you doing the Chef's Finger Kiss whilst plotting the demise of the corporate Democrats and the ascension of Multiple Home Owner and Primary Loser Bernie Sanders and his Bros to the throne of power.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #376 on: July 05, 2017, 06:31:44 PM »
With all due respect to Garry Kasparov, but you can't just equate socialism to stalinist communism.

Are you suggesting that kicking out Corporate Democrats equals communism?
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #377 on: July 05, 2017, 07:41:37 PM »
With all due respect to Garry Kasparov, but you can't just equate socialism to stalinist communism.

Are you suggesting that kicking out Corporate Democrats equals communism?


IIRC Kasparov is himself considered to be a political extremist both in his home country of Azerbaijani and in Russia. An unusual voice to be calling for moderation.


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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #378 on: July 05, 2017, 08:08:03 PM »
pil wrote: "...extremes at the left..."

There really are no 'extremes at the left' in anything close to main stream politics in the US.

Most of the positions of someone like Sanders are also held by center and even right wing politicians in most other developed countries.

By global measures, though, the US Republican Party is indeed very extreme. It is, for example the only major political party in the world that rejects the science of Climate Change.

Let's here try to avoid the false equivalences that swirl around us, shall we?
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #379 on: July 06, 2017, 08:12:24 PM »
Another data point suggesting a hard swing left will not lead to success for the Democratic Party and should give pause to the ongoing caper to foist the dreaded corporate Democrats.

Liberal firebrands may not be best hope for divided Democrats in the Trump era

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/07/06/liberal-firebrands-may-not-be-best-hope-for-democrats-in-trump-era.html

Democrats have their own fault lines, as the party's protracted 2016 primary battle made clear.  But the report concluded that the party's rank-and-file chose between establishment figure Hillary Clinton and self-styled revolutionary Bernie Sanders on the basis of style more than substance.

Though Sanders' supporters were more hostile to international trade agreements, they held similar views to Clinton's allies on core economic concerns such as income inequality and the importance of an activist government.

"Their voters were not all that different on most issues," wrote Lee Drutman, a fellow at the New America think tank who was part of the Voter Study Group team. "To the extent that the Democratic Party is divided, these divisions are more about faith in the political system and general disaffection than they are about issue positions."

Thus attitude may represent the key variable within Democratic politics over the next three years. Already, some Democrats have staked out divergent positions on how vehemently to resist the agenda of Trump and the GOP Congress.

After Democrat Jon Ossoff struck a temperate tone in his losing race for a Georgia House seat, some intraparty critics complained that he should have excoriated the president more. The recent fight for Virginia's Democratic gubernatorial nomination — in which Sanders-backed former House Democrat Tom Perriello lost to Lt. Gov. Ralph Northam — revolved around who had greater ability to produce change.

The Virginia outcome suggests that firebrands in the mold of Sanders and Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren may have less momentum within the party than they assumed in the wake of Trump's triumph. Like the Republican president, each has drawn energy with angry complaints that the political system is rigged to the detriment of average Americans.
---
David Axelrod, the chief strategist in Barack Obama's breakthrough 2008 victory, notes a recurrent pattern: Voters seek qualities in their next president that compensate for what they consider defects in the last one.
---
"In 2020, there will be a market for an antidote to him," Axelrod said. That points toward a quieter, more thoughtful approach that places a higher premium on governing experience.

"There will be a receptivity to someone who offers big ideas about how to insure a fair shot and economic security for the broadest number of Americans in a rapidly changing economy, rather than promising a return to an irretrievable past," Axelrod said. "There will be a market for a more healing and unifying figure who can speak to our common values and concerns as Americans rather than mining resentment and sowing antagonism."

If he's right, harsh denunciations of the wealthiest 1 percent won't prove the most effective Democratic answer to Trump's denunciations of illegal immigrants. That dynamic would give an advantage to potential White House candidates with a more consensus-oriented message, such as Joe Biden or Cory Booker, rather than Sanders or Warren.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #380 on: July 06, 2017, 09:40:08 PM »
pileus
The consensus on this thread seems quite the opposite of what your link states. Here, and in most of the links posted to this thread, style is ignored while substance is of paramount importance. The questions that are being asked are "Who pays your bills", and the often related, "What is your stand on single payer healthcare".


My guess, without tracking them down, is that the New American Think Tank is a product of the Corporate Democrats & that this article is a rather feeble attempt at misrepresenting their opponent's position.


I suppose when you've lost both the practical and moral lead, moving the argument to a different arena is good strategy, it just leaves such an unpleasant odor behind.
Terry

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #381 on: July 06, 2017, 09:55:42 PM »
Well, Cory Booker is only taking a pause from accepting corporate cash, so if he ends his pause before campaign time, he could try and buy a position he probably covets very vehemently (for himself). All those great parties at the White House, and then getting all those presents/ex post facto bribes once you're no longer president, celebrity for life, even if you're a war criminal.

Quote
But the report concluded that the party's rank-and-file chose between establishment figure Hillary Clinton and self-styled revolutionary Bernie Sanders on the basis of style more than substance.

And we've all had the privilege of witnessing Hillary Clinton's dazzling style, with a record amount of campaign money going into smearing her opponent, rather than talk about issues.

Quote
"Their voters were not all that different on most issues," wrote Lee Drutman, a fellow at the New America think tank who was part of the Voter Study Group team. "To the extent that the Democratic Party is divided, these divisions are more about faith in the political system and general disaffection than they are about issue positions."

Yes, disaffection about Clinton and her Corporate Democrat buddies having a public and a private position (wink, wink). The positions are the same, except that the Corporate Democrats will talk the talk, but only walk the walk their donors allow them to. Cory Booker is a perfect example, doing everything he can to make sure health care doesn't become cheaper/universal.

I'm sorry, this is just CNBC gaslighting to keep liberals afraid of going all out for what they actually stand for, and meekly choose the lesser evil. And then lose yet again. Or win a Pyrrhic victory, with their beloved Corporate Democrat president protecting the interests of Wall Street and Big Pharma, keeping the wars going and increase mass surveillance/reduce freedoms.

First you think about what you stand for, and then you devise a strategy. Not the other way around. You don't adapt your values to what you believe will make you more likely to win.

In the first paragraph I mentioned parties. Look how cosy it was at this Washington Post senior editor party:

Washington Post's Disgusting Guest List At Hamptons Party
! No longer available

As Glenn Greenwald wrote on Twitter: It's almost like there's a ruling class that transcends feigned partisan acrimony.

No kidding.
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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #382 on: July 06, 2017, 10:28:10 PM »
Drutman and Axelrod present the case for conventional Party wisdom, but more and more the Democratic Party is merely a version of the Republican Party. The Democrats do all the bad things they ascribe to Republicans, but with feigned reluctance. Truman once said that given the choice between a Republican and a Republican in Democrat clothing, the voters will choose the former. Hightower put it more plainly: There's nothing in the middle of the road except a yellow line and dead armadillos.

I have remarked that Hillary Clinton was an excellent Republican candidate and Sanders was a throwback to an older Democratic Party. Trump, of course, is from the Monster Raving Loony party, and his victory reveals the ideological bankruptcy of both the Republicans and the Democrats.

Booman has a thoughtful article on future courses for the Democrats and some unkind words for Mark Penn. I fear, that as usual, he will be ignored.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/7/6/124254/1373

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #383 on: July 07, 2017, 06:34:22 PM »
Lee Fang is usually worth reading.  Here he is on a corporate democrat dinosaur laughing about single payer, echoed by corporate republican dinosaur.

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/01/dick-gephardt-single-payer-health-insurance-lobbyists/

sidd

Jimmy Dore just released a video on this, and my goodness, he says that Gephardt guy, is actually a superdelegate for the Democratic Party. That's simply insane. Is there a list of superdelegates somewhere? How many of them are being paid by corporations?

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #384 on: July 07, 2017, 08:06:28 PM »
A couple weeks ago, Taibbi had an article out that outlined the problems for the corporate democrats, showing just how disconnected they are:

--
" ... Atlantic senior editor David Frum tweeted in despair:

"I think we need a word to describe people broadly satisfied with the status quo & skeptical of radical changes based on wild promises."

...

"I mean, there have to be a few of us, right? Maybe we could form a movement of some kind or form a political party with that word in it?"

...

Frum's clarion call spoke to the almost total cluelessness of the D.C./punditoid class to which he belongs. (To be clear, though I'm a New Yorker, I also belong to this miserable group.)

...

The idea that people who want expanded health care, reduced income inequality, fewer wars and more public services are "unrealistic" springs from an old deception in our politics.

For decades pundits and pols have been telling progressive voters they don't have the juice to make real demands, and must make alliances with more "moderate" and presumably more numerous "centrists" in order to avoid becoming the subjects of right-wing monsters like Reagan/Bush/Bush/Trump.

Voters for decades were conned into thinking they were noisome minorities whose best path to influence is to make peace with the mightier "center," which inevitably turns out to support military interventionism, fewer taxes for the rich, corporate deregulation and a ban on unrealistic "giveaway" proposals like free higher education. Those are the realistic, moderate, popular ideas, we're told.

But it's a Wizard of Oz trick, just like American politics in general. There is no numerically massive center behind the curtain. What there is instead is a tiny island of wealthy donors, surrounded by a protective ring of for-sale major-party politicians (read: employees) whose job it is to castigate too-demanding voters and preach realism.

Those pols do so with the aid of a bund of dependably alarmist sycophants in the commercial media, most of whom, whether they know it or not, technically inhabit the low end of the 1 percent and tend to be amazed that people out there are pissed off about stuff.

...

If 80 percent of Americans ever realized their shared economic situation, they could and probably should take over government. Of course, they wouldn't just be taking power for themselves, they'd be taking it from the big-dollar donors who own such a disproportionately huge share of wealth in our society.

Such people of course have many very good reasons to embrace the status quo. The problem is, they're not terribly numerous as a group, which unfortunately for them still matters in a democracy. It's one of the unpleasant paradoxes of exclusive wealth. If you live in a democracy, you're continually forced to manufacture the appearance of broad support for the regressive policies underpinning your awesome lifestyle.

--

Read the whole thing:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-goodbye-and-good-riddance-to-centrism-w487628

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SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #385 on: July 07, 2017, 08:10:24 PM »

. . . .       
What plays right into the (tiny) hands of Trump, is fake news/propaganda from what is perceived as left-leaning mainstream media. If, for instance, you're going to keep pushing the meme that all 17 US intelligence agencies have agreed that Russia tried to influence the 2016 election to benefit Donald Trump, whereas it was 3-4 agencies, you play into the hands of Donald Trump.
. . . .
 

Are you *really* going to take Trump's assertion (of 4 rather than 17) at face value?  It's actually a distinction without a difference, as Politifact explains.  One of the 4 oversees all 17.  See:

17 intelligence organizations or 4? Either way, Russia conclusion still valid
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/jul/06/17-intelligence-organizations-or-four-either-way-r/

Quote
Four out of the 17 were involved in the January assessment about Russia: CIA, FBI, NSA and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which is an umbrella agency that oversees all 17 organizations. 

This doesn’t mean the remaining 13 intelligence organizations disagree with the January assessment, nor does it mean the report was insufficient, according to multiple national security experts.

The 17 organizations differ on their missions and scope, so they wouldn’t all be expected to contribute to every intelligence assessment, including one of this import.
. . .
For example, the intelligence arms of the Drug Enforcement Agency or the Coast Guard would not be expected to collect intelligence related to Russian interference in an election, said Steven Aftergood, director of the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists.


To pretend this distinction is important or relevant is to obfuscate.  Since the overall head of all 17 agreed, it's plain that there was no persuasive dissent among the total of the intelligence community.  And while it's *imprecise* and a bit of an exaggeration to say all 17 reached this conclusion, it's not entirely wrong.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #386 on: July 07, 2017, 09:46:04 PM »
To pretend this distinction is important or relevant is to obfuscate.  Since the overall head of all 17 agreed, it's plain that there was no persuasive dissent among the total of the intelligence community.  And while it's *imprecise* and a bit of an exaggeration to say all 17 reached this conclusion, it's not entirely wrong.

If you are imprecise and exaggerate a bit for effect, you play into the hands of Donald Trump. It was just an example, and possibly a minor one at that. Because a lot of stuff is being pushed, and a significant part of it is coming from the newborn leftist version of Glennbeckistan. It has the potential to play into the hands of Trump, just like the birth certificate thing eventually played into the hands of Obama.

I find it rather disappointing, not just to see how similar to the GOP the Democratic Party has become, but also how to see much the supporters of both parties are alike. Everything is allowed as long as you destroy the enemy. Frothing at the mouth, hysteria, righteous indignation. This is war.

I'm against Trump and against Corporate Democrats. I find it a position that is rather easy to defend. Unfortunately, I'm not American, or else I'd probably try to do more. To kick the Corporate Democrats and then Trump out.

On-topic again:

StefeMDFP, what do you think of that Gephardt guy, what he says, who he's paid by, and then, the fact that he is a superdelegate for the Democratic Party? Do you consider that healthy, politically speaking?
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #387 on: July 07, 2017, 09:50:33 PM »
Steve
Hillary pulled the 17 agencies out of thin air during a political debate. It's not the kind of debating tactic we'd commonly approve of, but it's a political debate for god's sake. Facts get exaggerated, people are misquoted, and the candidates are want to make up any number of debating facts that have little connection with reality.
Get over it already.


What happened next was the problem. Every news agency in the country grabbed her quote and repeated the lie for months, and repeated it in large block type at the head of the page.
Rather than doing even minimal fact checking, ie Who are the 17 intelligence agency heads, when did they reach this consensus, where did this historic meeting take place, how was Candidate Clinton made aware of these (facts?)


If anyone had listened to the 10th grade summer intern making coffee runs in the newsroom, they would have realized that the story as written would not rate a "D" grade in Miss Fenton's "Introduction to Journalism" class at Dalewood Secondary School.


Unringing a bell is a difficult task, especially when this clarion has been struck so loudly and so often.


This is precisely the danger I see in the mindless pursuit of a Trump/Putin conspiracy. As the lies are exposed more and more will come to believe that if you lied about this, you're probably lying about other Trump (facts?). At some point the whole "Trump is a terrible president" meme breaks down into a "you lied about him doing this", so "you're probably lying when you say he did that", and eventually Trump becomes the biggest victim of lies that ever held the presidency. Becomes The Peoples President.


With this particular onion having been peeled as far as it has we've got to do something to escape the stench. Hillary is not coming back so blame her. Dump a few prominent editors for stumbling with the story, the NYT is leaking editors anyway. Admit a mistake was made and scream Mea Culpa from every battlement. Cry copious tears, chew your tie, tug at your toupee as you beg forgiveness, channel Jimmy Swaggart if you must.


It's ugly, but unringing bells is difficult, demeaning work. Perhaps next time you'll remember Miss Fenton's "Simple Rules for Good Journalism".


Terry


Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #388 on: July 07, 2017, 11:11:15 PM »
Quote
With this particular onion having been peeled as far as it has we've got to do something to escape the stench. Hillary is not coming back so blame her. Dump a few prominent editors for stumbling with the story, the NYT is leaking editors anyway. Admit a mistake was made and scream Mea Culpa from every battlement. Cry copious tears, chew your tie, tug at your toupee as you beg forgiveness, channel Jimmy Swaggart if you must.

Nah, that's too much, as this is just a minor thing. But I would definitely stop pushing the meme. Other than that, I totally agree with your assessment of the media and how no one researched this on day one. I was disappointed to hear that the Coast Guard didn't possess conclusive intel showing that Russia had its thumb on the election scale.  ;)

But let's continue to talk about Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out.
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TerryM

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #389 on: July 08, 2017, 12:05:40 AM »
But let's continue to talk about Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out.


While California would serve as the perfect poster child for progressive policies I frankly see it as far too big a prize to win on our first shot out of the gate. The opposition would find themselves inundated with cash from every Big Money donor in the country, and while California is solidly Blue at this time, the voters have been known to be fickle.


Hawaii is a much smaller media market, isn't seen as pivotal, and is isolated. Plus it has Tulsi Gabbard!


If the democrats on those islands could wrest their party from corporate democrat's hands we'd have a base to start from. I have no idea of what shape the party's in there, but with grassroot donations to even the playing field I'd imagine that it's a battle that could be won.


Not advocating giving up in California or any other state, but a win right now might open a lot of eyes.


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #390 on: July 08, 2017, 01:06:32 AM »
To pretend this distinction is important or relevant is to obfuscate.  Since the overall head of all 17 agreed, it's plain that there was no persuasive dissent among the total of the intelligence community.  And while it's *imprecise* and a bit of an exaggeration to say all 17 reached this conclusion, it's not entirely wrong.
Yeah. But ... :)
But 17 is a bit wrong, and there is only wrong or not wrong (just like with pregnancy, as my uncle Sepp used to explain, channeling Aristoteles and Th. Aquinas) and thus it is wrong. Therefore it is as wrong as anything Trump says or tweets.

... and there comes the Democrat circular firing squad!
... (P.S.: (OSU marching band))

Unringing a bell is a difficult task, especially when this clarion has been struck so loudly and so often.
Plenty of rung bells around. I prefer unbeating of dead horses :) oops which reminds me of Obama and Hillary...

Quote
At some point the whole "Trump is a terrible president" meme breaks down into a "you lied about him doing this", so "you're probably lying when you say he did that", and eventually Trump becomes the biggest victim of lies that ever held the presidency. Becomes The Peoples President.
Currently "crooked" Hillary is  the biggest victim of lies. She would have done tried doing more for those Peoples than any president since before Reagan.


Quote
Hillary is not coming back so blame her.
Q.E.D. :)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 01:25:52 AM by Martin Gisser »

SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #391 on: July 08, 2017, 01:58:29 AM »

On-topic again:

StefeMDFP, what do you think of that Gephardt guy, what he says, who he's paid by, and then, the fact that he is a superdelegate for the Democratic Party? Do you consider that healthy, politically speaking?

His words, and association with the health insurers, are both disappointing.  However, he doesn't serve in Congress any more, and he's only one of 700 superdelegates.  As such, what he has to say is nearly totally irrelevant.

The existence of superdelegates is a disappointment in terms of the principles of democracy.  However, an effective political party typically must make some compromises of principle in the interest of effective strategy.  Nominating someone appealing to the Democratic base, but unpalatable to the rest of the general electorate, does no Democrat any good.  That's exactly the purpose of the superdelegates, and I think they played a role in selecting the candidate more likely to succeed.

Count me as one of those who believes Sanders would have lost to Trump in a genuine landslide.  He remained popular only because the vast sums of money involved in the campaign were not used to tarnish his name.  Had those guns been trained on him, he would have been devastated.

Getting back to single payer.  Yes, it would be a far better approach to health care, but it cannot possibly pass in today's America.  It would spell the immediate corporate death of all health insurers.  They would, therefore, expend all possible sums necessary to defeat such a proposal.  In the post-Citizens United world, that vastly out-guns all possible efforts for single-payer.

I think an all-payer proposal has a much better chance, as the insurer's would still have existence, although less profitable, while deriving almost all the benefits of single-payer.  I believe Germany has such a system, which is generally satisfactory.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #392 on: July 08, 2017, 02:10:18 AM »

What happened next was the problem. Every news agency in the country grabbed her quote and repeated the lie for months, and repeated it in large block type at the head of the page.
Rather than doing even minimal fact checking, ie Who are the 17 intelligence agency heads, when did they reach this consensus, where did this historic meeting take place, how was Candidate Clinton made aware of these (facts?)

 

I agree completely.  The sins of the Press are legion, and they're not showing signs of getting any better.  The Press is certainly over-emphasizing Russiagate.  It's cheap, easy click-bait for them.  There's really not a lot to do about this except wait for the FBI investigation to yield fruit.  Well, maybe keep a bit of pressure on the congressional Intelligence Committees, so these Republican-led bodies actually do their job.

The sins of the Press should, however, not be mistaken for sins of Democrats.  That's a totally different matter.

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #393 on: July 08, 2017, 04:44:54 AM »
Tim Ryan gets it. So do his consituents. I have been thru his district many, many times over several decades, and Hillary is extremely lucky to have squeaked by there. I think everyone who can should help him out.

--

"The brand is just bad," the Congressman said on CNN Wednesday night. "I don't think people in the beltway are realizing just how toxic the Democratic Party brand is in so many parts of the country"

...

Re: Pelosi

"She's less popular than Donald Trump in my district," Ryan told CNN's Don Lemon.

...

" People in Ohio, Don, aren't really talking about Russia or Michael Flynn or Putin or anything else. They're worried about paying the bills ...  we're talking about Trump so much we're not talking about them."

...

Well, we're losing. It's Trump, four; us, zero, you know, in the special elections. And that's a real problem. And we keep losing these races. And, you know, at some point, you got to start winning. And we're not winning. We haven't figured out how to win.

--

Read all about it.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/06/22/dem_rep_tim_ryan_pelosi_toxic_to_democratic_party_doesnt_benefit_candidates_to_be_tied_to_her.html

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/22/533909764/democratic-rep-tim-ryan-criticizes-his-partys-strategy

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Jim Pettit

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #394 on: July 08, 2017, 02:59:22 PM »
Tim Ryan gets it. So do his consituents. I have been thru his district many, many times over several decades, and Hillary is extremely lucky to have squeaked by there. I think everyone who can should help him out.

I lived in Tim Ryan's district, and I can absolutely say: thank the stars that he didn't become minority leader. I'm no Pelosi fan, and I'm also a firm believer in looking deeply inwards to find where your problems lie. But at the same time, the Democratic Party doesn't need members of the Democratic Party publicly trashing the Democratic Party, calling it and its leadership "toxic" and "unpopular", and generally insulting parts of the progressive movement who don't march in lockstep with him.

Meh.

(So far as the "Is it 17 agencies or 4", Trump's reductionist parsing is just plain silly. Why, Trump should just take things to their natural conclusion and proclaim, "Hey, only one nation's intelligence agencies think Russia interfered in the election, while another nation--Russia--says there was no interference. I guess we'll never know who's right!" The bottom line is, Trump has professed a belief in Russian propaganda, and a deep disbelief in the American government and free press. There is absolutely NO downside to letting people know that as part of a much larger strategy.)

sidd

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #395 on: July 08, 2017, 08:43:31 PM »
Re: Mr Pettit's comment on Ryan and his district

Apparently we differ on Ryan. Out of curiosity, what was the last time you were in his district ? I went thru there several times during the last election and the discontent among Democratic rank and file was apparent, as in the electorate at large. Hillary Clinton was universally despised, as was Pelosi. I have been through there at least twice since the election, and the groundswell for Trump is still apparent.

Perhaps we hang out with different crowds ...

Re: "  ... the Democratic Party doesn't need members of the Democratic Party publicly trashing the Democratic Party, calling it and its leadership "toxic" and "unpopular" . "

Wait. Tim  Ryan is voicing democrat discontent at grassroots level, which I know exists since before the presidential election, and exists today. Pelosi is a toxic name in a large part of Ohio among Democrats. Is it the position of the Democratic party that  Ryan should not express what his constituents are saying ?

If so, Assange is correct and the Democratic Party is indeed doomed. But I disagree that the Democratic Party is at the point where it must suppress the opinions of it's own voters. Soon perhaps, but not quite yet. As always I could be wrong.

sidd
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 12:06:58 AM by sidd »

AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #396 on: July 10, 2017, 03:00:37 AM »
Chomsky thinks the GOP is the most dangerous organization in human history.

Title: “Noam Chomsky - The Most Dangerous Organization in Human History”


“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Neven

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #397 on: July 10, 2017, 11:55:25 AM »
Chomsky thinks the GOP is the most dangerous organization in human history.

Title: “Noam Chomsky - The Most Dangerous Organization in Human History”


And that's absolutely try. Our discussion here is whether we should unite behind Corporate Democrats so that enough money can be generated through corporate donors to defeat the greater evil that is also sponsored by corporate donors. Or whether we try to make a clean sweep, using small donations and technology (social media) to unseat both, like Trump did in a way.

I think that most people here agree that the second strategy would be the best. In theory at least. But some will say it can never be done. I think if people would let go of these fears and beliefs that the first strategy offers the best chances of victory, the second strategy might actually become a possibility.

Keep in mind that most young people want the second strategy, and this is about their future.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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AbruptSLR

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #398 on: July 10, 2017, 05:24:59 PM »
Keep in mind that most young people want the second strategy, and this is about their future.

If a child reaches down to grab a 'snake in the grass', it is a parent's obligation to hold back the child, even if the child wants the freedom to play with whatever it wants.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 06:50:30 PM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

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Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
« Reply #399 on: July 10, 2017, 06:05:02 PM »
Count me as one of those who believes Sanders would have lost to Trump in a genuine landslide.  He remained popular only because the vast sums of money involved in the campaign were not used to tarnish his name.  Had those guns been trained on him, he would have been devastated.
Count me, too. The propaganda/fake news/infowar/smear/psyop machinery employed by the Republican and Russian universes still seems to get underestimated. Methinks it plays a central role on this 3-player chessboard game.

Quote
Getting back to single payer.  Yes, it would be a far better approach to health care, but it cannot possibly pass in today's America.  It would spell the immediate corporate death of all health insurers.  They would, therefore, expend all possible sums necessary to defeat such a proposal.  In the post-Citizens United world, that vastly out-guns all possible efforts for single-payer.
Plus,
their shareholder value would drop and evaporate a significant portion of the pensions savings of many citizens. So, it is not just a threat to particular corporations.

So, obviously there needs to be an incremental approach in re-forming U.S. health insurance. Obamacare was the first step. While small, one for the history books. "Progressives" should not turn this into historical ballast, while it actually floats much of the resistance against the Republican agenda.  (Guess what, without millions of protesters knowing their Obamacare (possibly under a different name) the GOP would by now have their health care bill through, and America one step further down the spiral...) hmmmm etc. repeating myself.

Quote
I think an all-payer proposal has a much better chance, as the insurer's would still have existence, although less profitable, while deriving almost all the benefits of single-payer.  I believe Germany has such a system, which is generally satisfactory.
In Bismarck's time it was much easier to set up a decent social insurance system. Today in the U.S. it involves a gigantic reconfiguration in terms of the financial subsystem which pentrates all of society, from the 1% down to the 50%.