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gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1100 on: August 23, 2017, 09:28:58 PM »
Who cares about Russiagate. In the next 5 years the world population will grow by something between 500 and 600 million people. Most of them in places where people are already running from in large numbers. Most of them will end up in places like the US and Canada. And they will all support the left wing. What will be the impact of that on the artic sea ice melt, and on things like US aquifers. Because many are already in a bad shape. And after 8 years Obama, you can be sure they will all come.
The USA has the most stringent immigration system and getting far more restrictive.
The economic migrant has but one priority - survival. Political ideology is not a priority.
Obama is irrelevant to them, as is Trump et al.

Ranting achieves nothing.
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1101 on: August 23, 2017, 09:34:04 PM »
Who cares about Russiagate. In the next 5 years the world population will grow by something between 500 and 600 million people. Most of them in places where people are already running from in large numbers. Most of them will end up in places like the US and Canada. And they will all support the left wing. What will be the impact of that on the artic sea ice melt, and on things like US aquifers. Because many are already in a bad shape. And after 8 years Obama, you can be sure they will all come.

It depends on what the left wing supports. If it keeps supporting corporations and money in politics, like it has for the last 30-40 years, nothing good will come of it.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1102 on: August 23, 2017, 09:35:32 PM »
Per the linked Alternet article, Christopher Steele has given the FBI the names of his 'Golden Shower' dossier, and that he may be compelled to testify before Congress:

Title: "British Spy Christopher Steele Has Given FBI the Names of His Sources for Trump Dossier: Report"

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/christopher-steele-has-given-fbi-names-his-sources-trump-dossier

Extract: "A recent U.S. court ruling could compel Steele to testify before lawmakers."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1103 on: August 23, 2017, 09:54:00 PM »
Per the linked Alternet article, Christopher Steele has given the FBI the names of his 'Golden Shower' dossier, and that he may be compelled to testify before Congress:

Title: "British Spy Christopher Steele Has Given FBI the Names of His Sources for Trump Dossier: Report"

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/christopher-steele-has-given-fbi-names-his-sources-trump-dossier

Extract: "A recent U.S. court ruling could compel Steele to testify before lawmakers."
So it wasn't 2nd hand, but third hand or more information.
I don't suppose any laws were broken, but ...


There are reasons that hearsay evidence isn't accepted in a court.
Terry

Alexander55

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1104 on: August 23, 2017, 10:22:22 PM »
Who cares about Russiagate. In the next 5 years the world population will grow by something between 500 and 600 million people. Most of them in places where people are already running from in large numbers. Most of them will end up in places like the US and Canada. And they will all support the left wing. What will be the impact of that on the artic sea ice melt, and on things like US aquifers. Because many are already in a bad shape. And after 8 years Obama, you can be sure they will all come.
The USA has the most stringent immigration system and getting far more restrictive.
The economic migrant has but one priority - survival. Political ideology is not a priority.
Obama is irrelevant to them, as is Trump et al.

No, it don't becomes more restrictive, because of that globalisation the door will only get further open. Because it's not just immigration. Immigration comes in many different ways. Some come as refugees. Some are immigrants  that go back to their home country to pick up a wife, and than the entire family of the wife follows. Or don't they have the right to unite their family ? Some come as students and stay, and the rest of the family follows . Some come as business people. Some just pay to come over. Some just use the corrupt way. Some come in a illegal way. And that don't seems to be a problem. The number of people that will oppose restrictions on immigration will only get bigger and bigger.

Ranting achieves nothing.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1105 on: August 23, 2017, 10:32:12 PM »
For what it's worth: whether Obama's time in office was a resounding, unparalleled success or a profound and abysmal failure has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or how much Trump and his people violated the law.
Absolutely true
Quote
Likewise, whether the United States has in the past engaged in shifty and underhanded policies to unduly influence elections in other countries has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or how much Trump and his people violated the law.
True - but it certainly lets Putin off the hook.
Quote
Likewise, whether the Democratic Party is ruled by out-of-touch elitists and moneyed snobs has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or how much Trump and his people violated the law.
Again, absolutely true.
Quote
Likewise, persistently repeating the term "neo-McCarthyism" has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or how much Trump and his people violated the law.
True - but it may very accurately frame the present situation.
Quote
Robert Mueller has a large and formidably-experienced team looking up and down many avenues. Now, some have speculated that since Mueller has announced nothing yet, there must be nothing there, but that's simply not how any criminal investigation has EVER worked. We DO know that high-ranking members of Trump's team colluded with what they thought to be Russian government officials to gather information that would hurt Clinton. That alone is enough to disqualify much of Trump's high command, and it's also FAR more than enough to warrant the time and money a thorough investigation takes.
Here is where we part ways.
1) I don't trust Mueller as I've heard that he was one of Baby Bush's Lawyers - I will see what I can find about his background, but if he was part of that White house team I wouldn't trust him to bring back my change.
2) I doubt that gathering background data on an electoral foe is illegal. I'd even go so far as to say that gathering dirt on opponents is a necessary part of the democratic process.
Quote
My guess for the past several months has been that Trump will resign rather than submit to the indignity and humiliation of being forcefully ejected from office. But I wonder whether he knows that even were he to quit the investigation would continue in some form or other...
My hope is that he stays until the bitter, (or sweet), end. The precedent of hounding a President from office without having to go through whole procedure is too painful to contemplate.


When a President that we like is drummed out of office using this as a precedent, you and I will both be screaming bloody murder, and rightly so, IMHO


Terry

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1106 on: August 23, 2017, 11:26:58 PM »
Quote
True - but it certainly lets Putin off the hook.

That's fine, since Putin isn't "on" the hook. Trump is, because he's the President. For now.

Quote
True - but it may very accurately frame the present situation.

Maybe, or maybe not. But it doesn't change things one bit.

Quote
I doubt that gathering background data on an electoral foe is illegal. I'd even go so far as to say that gathering dirt on opponents is a necessary part of the democratic process.

Again--and again and again and again and again and again--Trump isn't being investigated for "gathering background data on an electoral foe". He's being investigated for colluding with a hostile foreign state to subvert America's electoral processes.

Quote
My hope is that he stays until the bitter, (or sweet), end. The precedent of hounding a President from office without having to go through whole procedure is too painful to contemplate.

That is painful indeed--though not a tenth as painful as watching America fall to such a state that there's nothing left. Not a hundredth as painful as witnessing a civil war. Not a thousandth as painful as a global-scale thermonuclear war.

I say we go for it.

Quote
When a President that we like is drummed out of office using this as a precedent, you and I will both be screaming bloody murder, and rightly so, IMHO

Not me. I am patriot enough to put the interests of the Republic over the needs of my party, or someone I like. When John Edwards was found to be soiled, I was first in line to wish him booted. Ditto Anthony Weiner. Ditto Corrine Brown, Traficant, Rostenkowski, and so on. To me, the letter (R, D, or I) after a politician's name is far less important than the letters (Pres, Sen or Rep) in front of it. May that always be the case.


TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1107 on: August 24, 2017, 12:20:10 AM »
Jim


I'm having too much trouble keeping the quotes straight, (and the resize out of it), to continue.


Reread what I'd replied to & then your follow-ups.


Hounding any president out of office is wrong. That is a patriotic statement that I'm making even though I left your country in disgust when I was sure that Shrub would win a second term.

Edit - What background I did on Mueller shows that he was Shrub's FBI head, not one of the White house lawyers. He acted honorably WRT the wiretapping scandal.

Terry
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 12:25:45 AM by TerryM »

magnamentis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1108 on: August 24, 2017, 01:19:11 AM »
Who cares about Russiagate. In the next 5 years the world population will grow by something between 500 and 600 million people. Most of them in places where people are already running from in large numbers. Most of them will end up in places like the US and Canada. And they will all support the left wing. What will be the impact of that on the artic sea ice melt, and on things like US aquifers. Because many are already in a bad shape. And after 8 years Obama, you can be sure they will all come.

while you may have point one can still care about now and about other things than that, there is no contradiction in it. only limit is the individual multitasking bandwidth so to say  ;) ;) i see little sense in playing out one topic that is an integrated part of the whole against another.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1109 on: August 24, 2017, 03:18:17 AM »
It will be interesting to see where this new evidence leads to:

Title: "Russia probe unearths attempted meeting between Trump campaign and Putin: report"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/russia-probe-unearths-attempted-meeting-between-trump-campaign-and-putin-report/ar-AAqC3p4?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "A top Trump aide emailed campaign officials last year about an individual seeking to arrange a meeting between top campaign officials and Russian President Vladimir Putin, according to a new CNN report.

The email, sent by Rick Dearborn who is now President Trump's deputy chief of staff, was unearthed by congressional investigators probing possible ties between the Trump campaign and Moscow.

The email was sent in June 2016, which is around the time that Trump campaign members, including the president's son Donald Trump Jr., met with a Russian lawyer at Trump Tower who had promised compromising information on Hillary Clinton.

Russian officials made other reported attempts to meet with members of Trump's campaign. The Washington Post obtained emails last week that targeted George Papadopoulos, who was a volunteer on Trump's campaign.

No additional meetings between Russian-linked officials and Trump officials have been confirmed.
A special counsel and multiple congressional committees are investigating Russia's role in the 2016 election, as well as possible coordination between Trump's campaign and Russian officials."
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1110 on: August 24, 2017, 08:44:35 AM »
Edit - What background I did on Mueller shows that he was Shrub's FBI head, not one of the White house lawyers. He acted honorably WRT the wiretapping scandal.

Terry

Who is "Shrub", and why don't you use his real name ?
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1111 on: August 24, 2017, 01:29:26 PM »
Hounding any president out of office is wrong.

So it was wrong for Nixon to be "hounded out of office"? Should Americans--and the House--have simply looked the other way, shrugged, and said, "Yeah, obstruction of justice, abuse of power, and criminal cover-up are all bad things. But we shouldn't hound Nixon, so it's all good."

I disagree.

We need a President who's not just capable of handling the duties of the office, but one who is beholden to no one or nothing but America's citizens and its ideals. And given that an increasing amount of the data contained in the so-called "Steele dossier" has been corroborated, meaning that perhaps most if not all of it is true, Russia has been working Trump for years, grooming him while amassing major quantities of compromat to be used against him.

The guy with access to the nuclear codes shouldn't be in such a position. And I am perfectly comfortable "hounding out of office" anyone in that position if that's what it'll take to keep us safe.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1112 on: August 24, 2017, 02:35:27 PM »
The only one hounding Donnie out of office....is Donnie.  And he will continue to do so.  When he gives scripted speeches, he will read the words in a forced and fake manner like he did in Nevada yesterday.  When he goes off script like he did in Phoenix, you will see more of the real Donald Trump.

Is it any wonder why Donnie doesn't give press conferences?  Donnie's handlers understand what they are working with.  The last thing they want is reporters asking him questions and exposing himself mentally.

Just like the Watergate break-in was connected to Nixons poll numbers....so is Donnie's RussiaGate connected to his poll numbers.  As Donnie's numbers continue to slowly slide south....Republicans will slowly bail....and we have seen that over the last month.  Of course....RussiaGate is many multiples worse than Watergate....so they really aren't comparable on that level....but the same psychologies are at play.....only Donnie's psychological weaknesses are also much worse than Nixons.

And that has always been the most fascinating thing about Watergate and RussiaGate....is the psychology involved:

1). The psychology of the main actor...Donnie
2). The psychology of those in the administration and Congress
3). The psychology of the populace as the process continues to play out...and how slowly it changes over time (Mark Twain was spot on).  Humans really are slow to change...especially when it means they have to admit they were wrong.🇨🇦🇦🇺



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magnamentis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1113 on: August 24, 2017, 04:33:35 PM »
Hounding any president out of office is wrong.

So it was wrong for Nixon to be "hounded out of office"? Should Americans--and the House--have simply looked the other way, shrugged, and said, "Yeah, obstruction of justice, abuse of power, and criminal cover-up are all bad things. But we shouldn't hound Nixon, so it's all good."

I disagree.

We need a President who's not just capable of handling the duties of the office, but one who is beholden to no one or nothing but America's citizens and its ideals. And given that an increasing amount of the data contained in the so-called "Steele dossier" has been corroborated, meaning that perhaps most if not all of it is true, Russia has been working Trump for years, grooming him while amassing major quantities of compromat to be used against him.

The guy with access to the nuclear codes shouldn't be in such a position. And I am perfectly comfortable "hounding out of office" anyone in that position if that's what it'll take to keep us safe.

lack of being held responsible on all kinds of higher echelon is a general flaw in the system, i'd even go much farther than just ousting those irresponsible kind but make them pay, throw them into prison and the likes. however, what i'm saying is that i fully agree with your views like so often ;)

wili

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1114 on: August 24, 2017, 04:35:16 PM »
Hear! Hear!

JP should be declared a national treasure!
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1115 on: August 25, 2017, 01:38:29 AM »
This list of Trump's efforts to obstruct justice just keeps growing:

Title: "Analysis | 7 times Trump tried to call off the dogs on Russia"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/analysis-7-times-trump-tried-to-call-off-the-dogs-on-russia/ar-AAqERII?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "In a must-read piece, Politico reports that President Trump appeared to pressure two Senate Republicans to back off their Russia-related efforts. Josh Dawsey and Elana Schor report that Trump vented frustrations about Congress's Russia sanctions bill to Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) and tried to get Sen. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) to back off a planned bill to protect Russia special counsel Robert S. Mueller III from being fired.
...
1) Trying to get Tillis to back off
...
2) Venting to Corker about sanctions bill
...
3) Complaining to McConnell about not getting protection
...
4) Asking Comey for loyalty
...
5) Suggesting Comey be lenient on Michael Flynn
...
6) Asking Comey to say Trump wasn't under investigation
...
7) Asking Coats and Rogers to deny evidence of collusion"
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budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1116 on: August 25, 2017, 07:26:40 AM »
Edit - What background I did on Mueller shows that he was Shrub's FBI head, not one of the White house lawyers. He acted honorably WRT the wiretapping scandal.

Terry

Who is "Shrub", and why don't you use his real name ?

Terry:

Rob asked the question: Who is Shrub and why don't you use his real name? I imagine you were not referring to Monty Python's "Knights of Ni!?

BudM


Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1117 on: August 25, 2017, 08:11:37 AM »
It depends on what the left wing supports. If it keeps supporting corporations and money in politics, like it has for the last 30-40 years, nothing good will come of it.

Huh ?? The left wing supports corporations and money ? Where does this come from, Neven ?

I'm not sure how left-right interests are in Europe right now, but here in the US, 'left' is Bernie Sanders who has only the people in mind, centrist is Clinton/Obama, and Trump is on the extreme right. Trump is trying to undo every policy that Obama put in place, and put in place a corporate interest policy that goes as far as trying to kick poor people off health insurance to benefit a tax break for the ultra rich and big corporations.

Would you care to reconsider your statement ?
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1118 on: August 25, 2017, 09:15:06 AM »
It depends on what the left wing supports. If it keeps supporting corporations and money in politics, like it has for the last 30-40 years, nothing good will come of it.

Huh ?? The left wing supports corporations and money ? Where does this come from, Neven ?

I'm not sure how left-right interests are in Europe right now, but here in the US, 'left' is Bernie Sanders who has only the people in mind, centrist is Clinton/Obama, and Trump is on the extreme right. Trump is trying to undo every policy that Obama put in place, and put in place a corporate interest policy that goes as far as trying to kick poor people off health insurance to benefit a tax break for the ultra rich and big corporations.

Would you care to reconsider your statement ?

Sure, Trump is the worst, as is the GOP in general. Brazen, really. They've pushed the Overton window so far, that what is considered 'centrist' now, would be considered extreme right 40-50 years ago. And the further right the 'centrists' move, which they have done these past decades, the further right the right-wing wackos move. Because otherwise they would look too much the same, right? That's how you get Trump and it will only get worse if nothing happens. The next Trump might be smart.

As for the Democratic Party serving the interests of Big Pharma, Wall Street, MIC, Silicon Valley, etc., I believe there is plenty of evidence for that. It is the reason the Democratic Party in my view is utterly corrupted. It's going to take more than a Bernie Sanders to get that straightened out (and some argue it would be better to not straighten it out).

Anyway, there's a separate thread for that subject: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
The enemy is within
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1119 on: August 25, 2017, 09:46:35 AM »
Neven, I understand your argument, and there may very well be some truth to that.
But you are kicking against the wrong tires.

The REAL issue is the rise of ultra right nationalists, both in the US and in Europe as well.
These are the real backers of big corporations and big money into politics.

And since ultra right nationalists started in Russia with the rise of Putin, it has relevance to this thread.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1120 on: August 25, 2017, 02:01:12 PM »
Rob:

I think your comment is spot on.  In fact, to expand on your tire analogy.... 

A car is going down the road.  It has 2 good tires.....but the 3rd tire is 25% flat (Democrat) and the 4th tire is 75% flat (Republican).  Which one do you fix FIRST?

They both need to be fixed.....or the car won't run as efficiently as it can.  But CLEARLY the one that needs to be fixed IMMEDIATELY is the one that is 75% flat or the car (country) risks running off the road.

Why Neven continues to spend so much time on the third tire is beyond my limited comprehension. 
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1121 on: August 25, 2017, 02:39:12 PM »
The Gallup poll from yesterday shows Donnie's approval at 34%....tied for his all time low.  Disapproval is at 60%.  A "chartist" would look at the long chart of Donnie's approval/disapproval and "see" bad things ahead.  They would expect both the approval numbers to continue to drop and the disapproval numbers to rise.....as they break through areas of resistance and go further into record territory.

When the fundamentals (Donnie being Donnie) and the technicals (the chart formation) say the same thing.....it usually happens.

This is why I expect Donnie's numbers to continue to deteriorate further before he gets any type of bounce...(short or intermediate term recovery).

He really is screwed.  And he has nobody to blame but himself....although he sees that quite differently than I do.


« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:10:30 PM by Buddy »
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crandles

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1122 on: August 25, 2017, 05:02:46 PM »
And he has nobody to blame but himself....although he sees that quite differently than I do.

A bad workman blames his tools, but a really really bad president blames the media?  :-\ :o

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1123 on: August 25, 2017, 07:14:05 PM »
I see that Roger Stone is warning anyone in Congress that is thinking about impeaching Trump.  He also says that all hell will break out if that happens.  If there is anyone that knows anything about hell...it is certainly Roger Stone.  That would be a homecoming for him.👹
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1124 on: August 25, 2017, 09:59:13 PM »
Rob:

I think your comment is spot on.  In fact, to expand on your tire analogy.... 

A car is going down the road.  It has 2 good tires.....but the 3rd tire is 25% flat (Democrat) and the 4th tire is 75% flat (Republican).  Which one do you fix FIRST?

They both need to be fixed.....or the car won't run as efficiently as it can.  But CLEARLY the one that needs to be fixed IMMEDIATELY is the one that is 75% flat or the car (country) risks running off the road.

Why Neven continues to spend so much time on the third tire is beyond my limited comprehension.

I guess the difference between us, is that you think there are two tyres, and I think there is one, which is 25% + 75% = 100% flat. And it's actually not the tyre, but the engine. If it were the tyre, the question would be: With what do you fill it?

I believe the two tyre illusion is a polarizing propaganda tool to keep us all pawns in the oligarchic money game.

Oligarch team Trump tried to put on their spikes, but it looks like that is going to fail. So, the question is what happens next? Do we get another slick and everyone goes back to sleep, while no changes are being made to the systemic problems we face as a society and species? Or do we get out of the race?

The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1125 on: August 25, 2017, 11:48:32 PM »
Edit - What background I did on Mueller shows that he was Shrub's FBI head, not one of the White house lawyers. He acted honorably WRT the wiretapping scandal.

Terry

Who is "Shrub", and why don't you use his real name ?

Terry:

Rob asked the question: Who is Shrub and why don't you use his real name? I imagine you were not referring to Monty Python's "Knights of Ni!?

BudM


Sorry BudM & Rob.
I was out of town for a while, then more days resting up from the exertion. I used Shrub to refer to Bush the Younger, or George Walker Bush. Can't take credit for it as Shrub was an Ann Richards nick name for the 43d President.
Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1126 on: August 26, 2017, 02:16:48 AM »
It looks like Mueller is still hard at work:

Title: "Subpoenas Sent to PR Executives Who Worked on Manafort Project"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/subpoenas-sent-to-pr-executives-who-worked-on-manafort-project/ar-AAqI1np?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "Special Counsel Robert Mueller issued grand jury subpoenas in recent days seeking testimony from public relations executives who worked on an international campaign organized by Paul Manafort, people directly familiar with the matter told NBC News.

This is the first public indication that Mueller's investigation is beginning to compel witness testimony before the grand jury — a significant milestone in an inquiry that is examining the conduct of President Donald Trump and his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, among others.

It is also further indication that Manafort, Trump's onetime campaign chairman, could be in serious legal jeopardy."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1127 on: August 26, 2017, 04:13:20 AM »
Mueller is as busy as a beaver:

Title: "Mueller Reportedly Looking at Whether Flynn Played Role in Effort to Get Clinton Emails from Hackers"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mueller-reportedly-looking-at-whether-flynn-played-role-in-effort-to-get-clinton-emails-from-hackers/ar-AAqI4Xe?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "The Wall Street Journal reports tonight that Mueller is looking into “what role, if any, former national security adviser Mike Flynn may have played in a private effort to obtain Hillary Clinton’s emails from Russian hackers.”"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1128 on: August 26, 2017, 04:41:41 AM »
Neven:

I think there are two GROUPS (not types).

One group:  Republicans

1). With the exception of a few....either outright lie about global warming, or don't want to do anything about it.
2). Doesn't want to do anything....or very little about gun control
3). Wants to reduce income taxes on the wealthy further, and couldn't really give a rats ass about wealth inequality
4). Loves the deregulation that Donnie is doing...and couldn't care less about the health of the planet
5). Keeps on pushing fossil fuels...and obstruct renewables in some cases
6). Want repeal Obamacare and could care less about healthcare for uninsured

I don't think I need to list out the Democrat's.  These two groups couldn't be any different.  The Republican Party has "gone off the rails".  There is NO equivalency between the two groups.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1129 on: August 27, 2017, 10:50:04 AM »
In lieu of the presidential pardon of Joe Arpaio, which was not recommended by the DoJ, it seems this joke of a president could pardon anyone Mueller would charge, including the president himself...

This president surely tests the limits of our laws, and there may not be any other way to rid him and his cronies of their abuse of power then to impeach.
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1130 on: August 27, 2017, 04:44:20 PM »
In lieu of the presidential pardon of Joe Arpaio, which was not recommended by the DoJ, it seems this joke of a president could pardon anyone Mueller would charge, including the president himself...

This president surely tests the limits of our laws, and there may not be any other way to rid him and his cronies of their abuse of power then to impeach.

True. However, 1) presidential pardons are only applicable to federal crimes, and 2) accepting a presidential pardon is explicit admission of guilt--and such an admission leaves the pardoned person wide open to civil suits. IOW, a presidential pardon can keep a person out of prison, but not out of trouble.

That's what I'm hoping for, anyway...

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1131 on: August 27, 2017, 06:04:47 PM »
I guess the difference between us, is that you think there are two tyres, and I think there is one, which is 25% + 75% = 100% flat. And it's actually not the tyre, but the engine. If it were the tyre, the question would be: With what do you fill it?

I believe the two tyre illusion is a polarizing propaganda tool to keep us all pawns in the oligarchic money game.

Oligarch team Trump tried to put on their spikes, but it looks like that is going to fail. So, the question is what happens next? Do we get another slick and everyone goes back to sleep, while no changes are being made to the systemic problems we face as a society and species? Or do we get out of the race?

In the USA, Millennials are almost 80% progressive (and they are the largest single block of potential voters) but as they think that they cannot trust the 'system' this potential block of voters tends to have a very low turnout.  So in effect they have already gotten out of the race, which leaves the right-wing open to gerrymander and to suppress voting almost at will.

It may be true that the 'rat race' is headed towards a crash (at least I believe this), but that is no excuse to disengage from the reality of the moment (by not voting) no matter how ugly the current situation is, or is not.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1132 on: August 29, 2017, 12:19:41 AM »
Tangible evidence of collusion continues to build.  Between these emails and the Don Jr email, it will be a delicious irony that Trump is taken down with a big assist from emails.

Felix Sater, Trump Associate, Boasted That Moscow Business Deal ‘Will Get Donald Elected’

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/us/politics/trump-tower-putin-felix-sater.html?smid=tw-share

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1133 on: August 29, 2017, 04:28:27 AM »
Donnie better start praying to Joel Osteen (famous fake Christian fraud) for more news OTHER THAN RussiaGate..... 'cause it is not looking good for Donnie and company.

All those dots in RussiaGate keep connecting.....and Trumps prior statements on Russia continue to be nothing but lies.😱

I'm glad the dam's in Houston have held.  I don't think Donnie is going to be nearly as lucky when his dam breaks and the truth buries him and his fraudulent family.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1134 on: August 29, 2017, 07:17:55 AM »
Felix Sater, Trump Associate, Boasted That Moscow Business Deal ‘Will Get Donald Elected’

It is unclear why Sater would think that a Trump Tower in Moscow would get Trump elected in the US. There either is more to this 'deal' that Sater is not telling, or Sater was seriously overselling his argument. Time will tell...

What appear to be clear is that Trump associates are happy to engage in deals with Russia, even while Russia was under US sanctions.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1135 on: August 29, 2017, 04:32:56 PM »
Felix Sater, Trump Associate, Boasted That Moscow Business Deal ‘Will Get Donald Elected’

It is unclear why Sater would think that a Trump Tower in Moscow would get Trump elected in the US. There either is more to this 'deal' that Sater is not telling, or Sater was seriously overselling his argument. Time will tell...

What appear to be clear is that Trump associates are happy to engage in deals with Russia, even while Russia was under US sanctions.
For more details see the Salon article entitled: "Trump’s shadowy Moscow deal: Could this be the key that unlocks the whole Russia scandal?"

http://www.salon.com/2017/08/29/trumps-shadowy-moscow-deal-could-this-be-the-key-that-unlocks-the-whole-russia-scandal/

Extract: "The Sater emails included this startling claim:


“I will get Putin on this program and we will get Donald elected. Our boy can become president of the USA and we can engineer it. I will get all of Putin’s team to buy in on this, I will manage this process.”

Why building this tower was supposed to lead to Trump’s election is a mystery. Oddly, none of the emails the Times excerpted directly mention the tower project, raising plenty of questions about exactly what they might have been talking about.

Marcy Wheeler, among others, wondered why Cohen would have reached out to Putin’s communications chief about a real estate licensing deal. That communications chief, according to the “Steele dossier,” was “the ‘main protagonist’ of the kompromat campaign against Hillary.” Wheeler speculated that this alleged Trump Tower deal, never before revealed, might be cover for another kind of “deal” altogether.

Whether or not this turns out to be some kind of collusion or conspiracy with the Russian government to defeat Hillary Clinton and get Trump elected, we’ve never seen anything like this: Associates of a presidential candidate directly asking the leader of a foreign adversary to help them arrange for what amounts to a multimillion-dollar payoff. It’s shocking on its face, especially since Trump lied about it repeatedly.
...

Sater hinted in an interview earlier this month that he may be cooperating with both Mueller’s investigation and congressional probes of Trump.

“In about the next 30 to 35 days, I will be the most colourful character you have ever talked about,” Sater told New York Magazine. “Unfortunately, I can’t talk about it now, before it happens. And believe me, it ain’t anything as small as whether or not they’re gonna call me to the Senate committee.”"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1136 on: August 29, 2017, 11:08:04 PM »
Here's Rob Parry's take on the Moscow hotel deal... he suggests that rather than further evidence of 'collusion' it shows how little influence or connection Trump and co had with the Kremlin due to the deal going nowhere: More Misleading Russia-gate Propaganda

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1137 on: August 30, 2017, 03:23:52 AM »
Per the linked article, presidential pardons would make local prosecutions more likely:

Title: "Presidential Pardons Might Not End Russia Prosecutions"

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/presidential-pardons-might-not-end-russia-prosecutions-n797266

Extract: "But even mass pardons of all suspects in the Russia case would not close the door to potential prosecutions.

While presidential pardons can halt the federal case, local prosecutors could then pursue any Americans suspected of aiding Russia’s election meddling. In fact, legal experts say presidential pardons could make that prospect more likely.

According to a new MSNBC legal analysis, federal pardons could open the door to local criminal investigations in several states."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1138 on: August 30, 2017, 09:33:10 AM »
If Trump does use his pardoning powers to thwart the Russia investigation, it’s very likely to backfire :
https://www.vox.com/2017/8/29/16211784/donald-trump-pardon-constitution-michael-flynn-manafort

This article outlines the legal implications of using the 'presidential pardon' powers for Trump associates under investigation.

One may wonder if we ever would get to that point, and if we do, that articles of impeachment should have been filed for presidential abuse of power.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1139 on: August 30, 2017, 09:33:29 AM »
Here's Rob Parry's take on the Moscow hotel deal... he suggests that rather than further evidence of 'collusion' it shows how little influence or connection Trump and co had with the Kremlin due to the deal going nowhere: More Misleading Russia-gate Propaganda

Alternately, the deal to build Trump Tower Moscow may have just been a false cover story to explain why Team Trump and Moscow were talking to each other, while they were actually colluding to sway the 2016 election in Trump's favor.  Which would also explain why the tower never started construction.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1140 on: August 30, 2017, 09:39:02 AM »
Alternately, the deal to build Trump Tower Moscow may have just been a false cover story to explain why Team Trump and Moscow were talking to each other, while they were actually colluding to sway the 2016 election in Trump's favor.  Which would also explain why the tower never started construction.

I agree. There appears to be no reason at all for Sater to claim that "Our boy can become president of the USA and we can engineer it," just by building a tower in Moscow.

There is more to this 'deal' than Sater is telling.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1141 on: August 30, 2017, 09:47:20 AM »
Why was Ivanka given access to Putin's private office in 2006?

Title: "Chelsea Clinton Subtly Shades Ivanka Trump Amid Reports Her Old Friend Visited Putin's Private Office "

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/chelsea-clinton-subtly-shades-ivanka-trump-amid-reports-her-old-friend-visited-putins-private-office/ar-AAqW51M?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "It all started with The New York Times, which on Monday published a report about a 2015 email exchange between President Donald Trump‘s business associate Felix Sater and lawyer Michael Cohen that claimed Sater had made arrangements for Ivanka’s 2006 trip to Russia.
The trip, Sater alleges in his email, included a private stop at Vladimir Putin’s private office where he wrote that Ivanka sat “in Putin’s private chair at his desk and office in the Kremlin."

Ivanka, 35, confirmed to the Times that she took “a brief tour of Red Square and the Kremlin” in 2006 as a tourist. Although she didn’t recall sitting in Putin’s chair, she said it was a possibility that she did — adding that she has “never met President Vladimir Putin.”

But many of her critics on Twitter saw Ivanka’s insider experience as another example of the president’s dangerous ties to Russia — especially since Sater had boasted that building a Trump Tower in Moscow would help get the Russian government on Team Trump.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1142 on: August 30, 2017, 09:54:36 AM »
The linked AlterNet article presents arguments for why the chances of Trump's impeachment are increasing:

http://www.alternet.org/case-trumps-impeachment-grows-ever-stronger
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1143 on: August 30, 2017, 07:08:28 PM »
Interesting development yesterday that might merit discussion.
Mueller's grand jury has apparently subpoenaed Manafort's former lawyer, for documents and testimony -- herself.

Special counsel subpoenas Manafort's former attorney and spokesman
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/29/politics/mueller-manafort-attorney-spokesman-subpoenas/index.html

For most prosecutions, this is highly unusual, and generally impermissible.  Attorney-client privilege generally forbids investigation into any communications between a lawyer and her client.

There is, however, one category of criminal activity that puts a lawyer in personal legal jeopardy.  That is, RICO prosecutions.  RICO being the category of laws designed to facilitate prosecution of organized crime.  The legislation was written to enable prosecutors to go after lawyers of organized crime figures.  All that's needed is probable cause evidence that a given lawyer was involved in management or decision-making for a "Racketeering-Influenced or Corrupt Organization."
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/umkc67&div=16&id=&page=

Some googling quickly presents good hints that Manafort's real-estate dealings were corrupt.  Many connections to Russian oligarchs, with real estate deals conducted in cash.  And, his "consulting" work for pro-Russian Ukrainian officials.  Pretty clearly, a lot of unreported income from that.  Most of which seems to be pre-Trump campaign days.  So the connection to Trump himself seems a bit murky to me.

But Trump and Kushner both seem to have had roughly parallel dealings with shady Russian Oligarchs.  Any connections among the three men in such dealings is an open question to me.  But it wouldn't be surprising to find some common dealings that might pull all three organizations together in criminal liability.

RICO penalties are ferocious.  IIRC, 30-year sentences, asset forfeiture, heavy fines, and culpability just for being involved with an organization found to be corrupt.  No other personal criminal activity necessary.  This is like a 500-pound hammer coming down on at least Manafort, and maybe the Kushners and Trumps as well.

Exciting stuff.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1144 on: August 30, 2017, 07:47:56 PM »
I've read that Bill Clinton gave a $500,000 talk in Moscow while Hillary was Sec, of State.


Is this true?
Is this being investigated?


Terry

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1145 on: August 30, 2017, 08:01:38 PM »
I've read that Bill Clinton gave a $500,000 talk in Moscow while Hillary was Sec, of State.


Is this true?
Is this being investigated?


Terry

I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.  But Bill was a private citizen.  What law says a private citizen can't accept such an offer just because his spouse is a government employee?  What, are couples supposed to divorce in such circumstances in order to accept such an offer?

I don't see an ethical or legal problem here.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1146 on: August 30, 2017, 08:30:37 PM »
Apparently it wasn't enough.  One year later, in 2011.....Hillary called out Putin for the elections in Russia.  There was no favor in return.  Clearly far different than Donnie boy. Not to mention that the revenue was reported by Hillary.......as opposed to the liar king Trump who has lied about Russian connections every chance he gets.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1147 on: August 30, 2017, 11:31:22 PM »
Yet another act of obstruction of justice by Team Trump:

Title: "Trump makes policy pledge to senator investigating son's Russia meeting"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/30/trump-tower-russia-meeting-chuck-grassley

Extract: "President promises federal support for ethanol to industry backer Chuck Grassley a day after reports that Trump Jr will meet with Grassley’s committee"
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1148 on: August 31, 2017, 02:40:14 AM »
A little more than a week ago I said that I was expecting some activity from the New York AG in the coming weeks.  Remember.....pardons are only good for federal crimes, not state.  Looks like Mueller has been working with Schneiderman, the NY AG.  What I expect...is for Schneiderman to bring charges.....or at least some of his charges.....BEFORE Mueller starts to bring his.  Which means Schneiderman will be doing some negotiating with Manafort or Flynn or others.

Game on Donnie.  It's still third and twenty on your own ten yard line:  What are you going to call?  Don't fumble the ball in Texas while you're thinking about Russia.🐻
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 04:34:56 AM by Buddy »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1149 on: August 31, 2017, 02:48:44 AM »
A little more than a week ago I said that I was expecting some activity from the New York AG in the coming weeks.  Remember.....pardons are only good for federal crimes, not state.  Looks like the NY AG has been working with Schneiderman, the NY AG.  What I expect...is for Schneiderman to bring charges.....or at least some of his charges.....BEFORE Mueller starts to bring his.  Which means Schneiderman will be doing some negotiating with Manafort or Flynn or others.

Game on Donnie.  It's still third and twenty on your own ten yard line:  What are you going to call?  Don't fumble the ball in Texas while you're thinking about Russia.🐻

Just as Thetis left her son vulnerable when she dipped him in the river Styx,  there is no protection for Trump from the NYAG.  Observe as an already mad man comes completely off the rails as the walls close in.