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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #350 on: May 18, 2017, 03:56:11 PM »
The report doesn't make sense, that Schiller went into Comey's office and simply copied information off the hard drive.  Government computers have encrypted hard drives with 2-factor authorization.  Shiller's a bodyguard, not a computer geek.  He could have opened the computer and pulled out the hard drive, that's possible.  The only other alternative is that he booted the computer with his own (or illegally borrowed) credentials, which leaves an indelible computer trail on servers--but even that wouldn't readily permit access to Comey's files.  Either way, there'd be hard evidence of felony-level crimes immediately apparent.  And the felony could not have happened without conspiracy with others, specifically including Trump.

It's hard to believe Trump *and* Schiller could be this stupid.
OTOH it is not easy to believe that a U.S. public servant's computer should not be accessible by the man who has the Red Button.

Well, sure, for straightforward official business.  He orders the agency's IT department to deliver the computer and the private encryption keys.  But getting the computer's contents surreptitiously is a whole 'nother matter.

I think there's a way this could have happened that makes sense, though it's still stupid.  Schiller opens up the computer, pulls the hard drive, clones it, then replaces it.  Only broken seals would be left as evidence.  But then he only has high-level encrypted data, with no official way to decrypt it.  That would require KGB-level technology, thus hand-off to the Russians in the White House.

The problem is that broken seals would be sufficient evidence alone to prosecute.  And Comey's computer wouldn't likely have many relevant e-mails--those would be on an e-mail server.  Even downloaded files might be on a file server.  Possibly nothing of value would be on his hard drive.

I think Trump and Schiller *are* stupid enough to do this, however.  The Russians would be happy to cooperate, because regardless of any value of the data, they'd hold proof of Trump's impeachable conduct.

gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #351 on: May 18, 2017, 04:02:29 PM »
Everything is a huge hoo-hah about who did what and when and who knew. The reality is that Russia has won, if the mission was to cripple the US Government.

A dysfunctional White House is now a non-functioning White House.
A dysfunctional Congress is now a non-functioning Congress.
With the executive and the legislature out of action, only the judiciary left to dispose of.

However much one might abhor the politics of a Republican Legislature and a Trumpian Presidency, given what is going on in the world it is not good for the USA or its allies to have an ungoverned (ungovernable?) US of A.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #352 on: May 18, 2017, 04:17:34 PM »

Because of the nature of the allegations and suspicions, the relevant evidence would be from classified information.  A *named source* would be on an express train to a prison term.  The sort of leaks springing up now can *only* come via un-named sources. 

Any un-named source should be viewed with some skepticism, but not dismissal.  A whole raft of un-named sources, with un-named corroboration, reported by generally reliable media (Washington Post, NYTimes, etc.) should be considered reasonably reliable in overall thrust.

I don't know. I'm just suspicious of everybody. I've seen a lot of BS in the WaPo and NYT as well, and this un-named source thing just opens a portal to so much ideology-driven and ends-justify-means stuff. I mean there are lots of people who want to get rid of Trump asap, at all costs.

I agree about the 'getting rid of' part. I'm not sure whether 'asap' is best strategically, and the costs could be higher than we think.

And I'm still not sure this Russiagate thing might blow up the wrong way. I wish all that fervour, energy and aggression was directed more towards the general problem, rather than to the symptom. All this foreplay is sucking up so much attention that the ejaculation may prove disappointing, making it very difficult to get turned again on in the future.

I think Trump and Schiller *are* stupid enough to do this, however.  The Russians would be happy to cooperate, because regardless of any value of the data, they'd hold proof of Trump's impeachable conduct.

Every time something seems far-fetched, illogical or contradictory, it is countered with the argument that Trump is actually that stupid. It's just too epistemically closed for me.

I'm not going to apologize for "Patriotbots"...or whatever that site was that Martin linked.  BUT...like ALL SOURCES...whether direct (via people you know) or through the mainstream media or the "blog media".....like PalmerReport....they ALL should looked at with a SKEPTICAL EYE.

That is the true meaning of skeptic:  Someone who is skeptical of EVERYTHING.   Not just one side or the other.  Just as...I am sure....that you view Jimmy Dore with a skeptical eye. ;)

I absolutely agree with you on this. And I don't take what Jimmy Dore says as gospel truth. I don't see him as a news source, but rather as a commentator and activist. And I happen to like what he says and the way he says it.

Take for instance that Seth Rich thing. I'm just looking into it today and there's some bombshell potential there (if the guy did leak the Podesta stuff to Wikileaks and then got killed...), but here too there's very little hard evidence. There's this PI - that doesn't look reliable to me - on Fox News saying he has a source within the police department yadda yadda yadda.

Almost everything looks like propaganda to me, and I can't think of a way to solve it.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #353 on: May 18, 2017, 05:12:30 PM »
Here is the "likely end" if you want to skip ahead to the "end of the book."  Trump will "pull a Nixon."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/art-of-the-deal-coauthor-trump-meltdown_us_591d1c53e4b094cdba511035

Donnie will stay in it AS LONG AS HE HAS A REASONABLE CHANCE.  In other words....until the votes are there to impeach him....he will stay in the game.  Once he knows the votes aren't there, like Tricky Dick, he will hit the "eject button"......and claim victory.

We are likely MANY MANY months away from that....maybe over a year.

THE END....
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #354 on: May 18, 2017, 05:22:28 PM »
The report doesn't make sense, that Schiller went into Comey's office and simply copied information off the hard drive.  Government computers have encrypted hard drives with 2-factor authorization.  Shiller's a bodyguard, not a computer geek.  He could have opened the computer and pulled out the hard drive, that's possible.  The only other alternative is that he booted the computer with his own (or illegally borrowed) credentials, which leaves an indelible computer trail on servers--but even that wouldn't readily permit access to Comey's files.  Either way, there'd be hard evidence of felony-level crimes immediately apparent.  And the felony could not have happened without conspiracy with others, specifically including Trump.

It's hard to believe Trump *and* Schiller could be this stupid.
OTOH it is not easy to believe that a U.S. public servant's computer should not be accessible by the man who has the Red Button.

From the article Palmer speculates that Comey was setting a trap by instructing his subordinates to give Schiller access to his computer, and Trump has the clearance to decrypt any encoded messages that Schiller might have brought back to the WH:

Extract: "Finally, if Comey was indeed setting a trap for Trump, he would have told his staff to give Trump’s firing messenger access to the computer in question. And it might help explain why the Deputy Attorney General decided to appoint a Special Counsel to take over the investigation today."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #355 on: May 18, 2017, 05:33:41 PM »
And the Palmer Report 'parade of hits' on Russiagate keep coming:

"Michael Flynn appears to be leaking dirt on Donald Trump"

https://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/dirt-flynn-trump/2911/

Extract: "Here’s the leak itself: the New York Times is reporting this evening that Michael Flynn voluntarily informed Donald Trump’s White House that he was under FBI investigation, and Trump decided to appoint Flynn as National Security Adviser anyway (link). Now think about who looks good in this story and who looks bad. Trump and everyone around him look terrible for having allowed a target of an active FBI investigation to take such a sensitive role. But Michael Flynn sure does look good."

See also, Palmer Report's Twitter feed at:

https://twitter.com/PalmerReport?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #356 on: May 18, 2017, 05:59:05 PM »
... I don't know. I'm just suspicious of everybody. ...
Yeah, who is this "Neven" guy who shows up everywhere on this forum and the ASIB? ;D

I watch Rachel Maddow and read Fox News (on the internet), then scratch my head and go back to reading about Arctic ice.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #357 on: May 18, 2017, 06:17:44 PM »
... I don't know. I'm just suspicious of everybody. ...
Yeah, who is this "Neven" guy who shows up everywhere on this forum and the ASIB? ;D

I don't know, but whatever you do, don't trust anything he says.  ;D

I watch Rachel Maddow and read Fox News (on the internet), then scratch my head and go back to reading about Arctic ice.

That's a good advice. That's what I'm going to do soon. But I'm glad I took the time to read up a bit on what is happening in the leader of the world, even though it depresses me to no end.

"Michael Flynn appears"

"speculates that Comey"

...sigh...

This stuff feeds on itself.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #358 on: May 18, 2017, 06:49:55 PM »
The linked Palmer Report op/ed article is entitled: "Is Ukraine behind secret recording of Paul Ryan discussing Russia paying Donald Trump?". Will Bob Mueller need to open an investigation on Paul Ryan?

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/ukraine-paul-ryan-russia/2919/

Extract: "Last night an eye popping story appeared in the Washington Post which revealed that Paul Ryan and other Republican leaders had been caught on tape discussing alleged Russian payments to Donald Trump. This audio was recorded nearly a year ago and is just being released now, with Trump’s Russia scandal already in meltdown mode. But what’s most stunning is that the government of Ukraine might have been behind the secret recording."
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 07:23:19 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #359 on: May 18, 2017, 07:22:49 PM »
Also, see the linked Palmer Report opinion piece entitled: "With Donald Trump’s downfall underway, the U.S. intel community may be targeting Paul Ryan too"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trumps-downfall-underway-u-s-intel-community-may-targeting-paul-ryan/2920/

Extract: "So what we’re now witnessing may be the beginning of the intel community’s effort to put enough evidence out there to get the American public to realize that Paul Ryan is going down along with Trump and Pence. As I’ve previously pointed out, that doesn’t automatically mean that fourth in line Orrin Hatch would become President (link). When Spiro Agnew and Richard Nixon went down in rapid fashion, we saw Congress work it out so a bipartisan consensus pick like Gerald Ford could be elevated to the Presidency, thus making the order of succession irrelevant. But it sure does look like the intel community is trying to inform us that Paul Ryan may no longer even be in the line of succession when it’s all said and done."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #360 on: May 18, 2017, 08:05:44 PM »
The linked CNN article is entitled: "Now it's up to the special counsel", and it points out (among other things) that the WH staffers now face the likely prospect of being examined by Mueller:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/18/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-democracy/index.html

Extract: "Staffers now face the prospect that they will be examined by Mueller's probe and will worry about their own potential legal jeopardy, and must cope with the corrosive reality of working in an administration that will now be under a dark cloud of investigation and uncertainty for months or even years to come.

It seems unlikely, for instance, that Comey will now testify in public in what would have been one of the most significant congressional hearings in recent times. There is also no guarantee that if he does not decide to recommend criminal prosecutions, Mueller will feel the need to release a report into his investigation. That is one reason why Democrats will continue to press the case for sweeping congressional probes."
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gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #361 on: May 18, 2017, 08:25:55 PM »
So while all this crap is going on, who is looking after the shop?

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #362 on: May 18, 2017, 08:39:15 PM »
So while all this crap is going on, who is looking after the shop?
Putin
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #363 on: May 18, 2017, 08:42:17 PM »
Take for instance that Seth Rich thing. I'm just looking into it today and there's some bombshell potential there (if the guy did leak the Podesta stuff to Wikileaks and then got killed...), but here too there's very little hard evidence. There's this PI - that doesn't look reliable to me - on Fox News saying he has a source within the police department yadda yadda yadda.

Almost everything looks like propaganda to me, and I can't think of a way to solve it.
Don't waste your time. It is a Faux News red herring with an utterly ridiculous source. See my response to your previous question on this. 
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

wili

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #364 on: May 18, 2017, 10:00:25 PM »
Yeah, I'm not sure why any thinking person would ever spend any time on Fox, unless maybe for a kind of sick entertainment, or to take a peak at the sheer madness.

For 'news,' it has been shown to be worse than worthless...people who watch it have a less clear idea of facts in the world than people who watch no news at all, iirc.
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #365 on: May 18, 2017, 10:15:52 PM »
Almost everything looks like propaganda to me, and I can't think of a way to solve it.
Don't waste your time. It is a Faux News red herring with an utterly ridiculous source. See my response to your previous question on this.[/quote]

FWIW, Jimmy Dore also says that there is no evidence, even though there are some strange things wrt this case (nothing stolen, Wikileaks offering a reward). As I thought, that private investigator is totally unreliable, retracting what he had said earlier about there being evidence that Seth Rich had been in contact with Wikileaks.

But there's one more thing you said that I want to reply to:

I still dearly remember the DVD Neven gave me with documentary films. One was about Edward L. Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, father of c20th "public relations". Psychology and technology have advanced meanwhile. And now methinks Russia has advanced "information warfare" to a new niveau.

Ha, I had forgotten I had given you that DVD! That Century of the Self is one hell of a documentary series that totally blew my mind 10 years ago.

But what it shows, is how corporations and elites have refined these techniques to make people buy the stuff they want to sell them. Not necessarily nations or nation states, just groups with vested interests. When push comes to shove, these groups do not care about the nations or nation states they may reside in. Call them Oligarchs Sans Frontières, if you like.

If you want to rail against Trump, fine, but be careful not to couch it in language - like the mainstream media does relentlessly and irresponsibly - that takes us back to this Cold War mind set. Or worse, real warfare.

The 'Russian' oligarchs haven't advanced 'information warfare' to a new level. It's not like we now suddenly are being f**ed. This has been going on for a long time. And that 'USA not USSR' meme will not stop it. It only makes it worse.

Of course, earlier on this thread, others have said that 'Russiagate' is really the wrong name to use. As so often with this kind of labelling (death tax, Obamacare, Axis of Evil), it's to instil fear in people, make them afraid of some invisible enemy. So that they don't think or actively engage in positive change.

This isn't about Russia. This is about people of good will against bad people. And we need to get the bad people out, on all sides, if we want to have a chance at solving anything.

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #366 on: May 18, 2017, 10:26:27 PM »
The linked Slate article is entitled: "A Special Enemy".  Trump's combative style has kept most of his opponents off-balance; however, this article makes it clear that Trump's style likely will play into Mueller's hands (& I note that Comey is a friend of Mueller's).

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/05/special_counsel_robert_mueller_was_born_and_bred_to_torment_donald_trump.html

Extract: "Former FBI Director Robert Mueller was born and bred to torment Donald Trump.

Even if Mueller’s investigation doesn’t result in any charges being brought, it’s almost certain Mueller and his team will end up asking Trump questions he doesn’t want to answer and demanding to see documents he doesn’t want to provide. Barring a drastic change in Trump’s disposition, the president will respond to these affronts by publishing angry tweets about Mueller and snarling about him in interviews. Maybe he’ll even compare him to a “dog,” as he did recently when talking about former Acting Attorney General Sally Yates. Or perhaps he could threaten Mueller, as he did last week in a tweet directed at former FBI Director James Comey.

While Trump loathes a lot of people, his hatred of Mueller is likely to be particularly intense. That’s because Mueller is exactly the kind of guy Trump always hates. He’s also exactly the kind of law enforcement official Trump doesn’t understand.

If and when Trump does go after Mueller—he dipped his toe in the water Thursday morning by tweeting about how it was unfair that a special counsel had been appointed to conduct the “witch hunt” against him—their showdown will be marked by a pleasing irony. In one corner will be the patrician and brainy Mueller, who has little in common with the “real cops” the president so admires. In the other will be Trump, who will soon find out what being ”tough on crime” really means."
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 10:37:23 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #367 on: May 19, 2017, 12:16:57 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Lieberman emerges as front-runner for FBI post".  It will be interesting to see whether Joe gets the nod.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/18/joe-lieberman-fbi-frontrunner-238563
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #368 on: May 19, 2017, 01:52:11 AM »
Mueller's appointment boils Trump's presidency down to a singularity. Did he do it, or did he not.


Trump's promises and actions against climate change agreements no longer matter.
Trump's appointments, except those somehow linked to Russia no longer matter.
Trump's xenophobia and misogynistic leanings are no longer issues.
Will Mexico pay for the Wall? who cares.
How can you worry about Trump getting your job back. That's not important.


If Trump is discovered to have fixed the election with Putin's aid - he's history.
If Trump and Putin are innocent, it's 8 years, then his choice for the next 4.


Ken Starr knew Clinton was guilty, of something. Monica's dirty dress proved more important than land swaps or any of the other crimes that Starr had imagined. After years of investigation the impeachment was held. Clinton was exonerated. Single payer was forgotten, Yugoslavia was no more. Eight years reduced to a stain on a plus size gown, sad.


Terry


Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #369 on: May 19, 2017, 05:00:09 PM »
In a simplisitc, back-and-white world, certainly Democrats would have but two choices:

A) See how deeply Trump worked with a hostile foreign state to subvert our democracy, and just let everything else go to hell; or...

B) Focus solely on internal problems, and surrender our democracy to Americans who invite hostile outsiders to influence the electorate, keeping our fingers crossed that those hostile outsiders will change their minds next time and let free elections take place so progressives can attain and retain positions of power so we can deal with those issues.

Fortunately, the world is neither so simplistic nor so black-and-white. There are at this moment tens of millions of smart people fully capable of simultaneously walking and chewing gum; these people know that we can both investigate Trump's aiding and abetting of Putin AND work on the dozens of issues facing Americans today. We can look into whether and how deeply Flynn's and Manafort's criminal actions extend into the White House AND show Americans that liberals (and not conservatives) have given America most of those things it cherishes most.

Those consuming only right wing media--or at least living on a diet consisting primarily of it--can be easily misled into thinking there's nothing to see, no "there" there; Fox barely mentions Russia, and conservative talk radio is working overtime trying to fool its listeners into thinking this is all a witch hunt and an effort to delegitimize Trump. But this isn't nothing. Far from it. And if the steadily increasing drip-drip-DRIP of denial and obfuscation from Washington doesn't illustrate that, the multiple grand juries looking into things certainly should.

On another note: there is absolutely no way that Trump gets eight years out of this. People with favorability ratings in the 30s simply don't get re-elected. In fact, people with ratings in the 30s are prone to getting primaried. And Trump has absolutely NOTHING up his sleeve that will reverse those terrible numbers. The emperor has no clothes--and very few are afraid to tell him that.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #370 on: May 19, 2017, 05:58:25 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Rosenstein Briefing Suggests Russia Probe Now Criminal".  Thus as the DOJ considers Russiagate to be a criminal investigation, most evidence in this matter cannot be made public without allowing those who may be guilty to escape without consequences.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rosenstein-briefing-suggests-russia-probe-now-criminal/ar-BBBhvam

Extract: "… Rosenstein's remarks to lawmakers suggested that what had been a "counterintelligence investigation" was now morphing into a criminal one, one senator said afterward."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #371 on: May 19, 2017, 06:08:51 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "House Republicans are worried more taped conversations will leak".

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/19/house-republicans-are-worried-more-taped-conversations-will-leak/

Extract: "A new report indicates that House Republican leaders are worried more secretly recorded conversations will leak to the press.

On Wednesday descriptions of a taped conversation among House Republican leaders after meeting with Ukrainian Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman leaked, due to reporting by The Washington Post. The most notable moment from the conversation was when House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California joked that “there’s two people I think Putin pays: [GOP Rep. Dana] Rohrabacher and Trump.” As people laughed at his comment, McCarthy emphasized “Swear to God!”

House Speaker Paul Ryan can then be heard ending the conversation and forcing the Republicans who heard McCarthy’s remark to swear to their secrecy. “No leaks. This is how we know we’re a real family here,” Ryan told the Republicans."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #372 on: May 19, 2017, 07:29:50 PM »
Ukrainian politicians & Republicans are a natural fit. It's when Corporate Democrats start seeing things the same way as Poroshenko sees things that I worry.


For Neven:


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-19/seth-richs-reddit-account-discovered-loved-pandas-patriotic-clothes-and-joe-rogan


Apparently two of Seth's reddit accounts have been uncovered. No smoking guns, but fresh data to sort.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #373 on: May 19, 2017, 07:50:48 PM »
Fox News is all-in on the Seth Rich nonsense.

So are the Russians.

So are silly, debunked, I-wish-to-hell-they'd-just-go-away conspiracy sites--Breitbart, Drudge, ZeroHedge, etc.

Meanwhile, there's a dead son, a murdered brother, brokenhearted friends, a grieving family--and a bunch of desperate folks politicizing his death to get the spotlight off of TrumpCo's treason.

Despicable. Disgusting. But par for the course.

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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #375 on: May 19, 2017, 09:31:00 PM »
Fox News is all-in on the Seth Rich nonsense.

So are the Russians.

So are silly, debunked, I-wish-to-hell-they'd-just-go-away conspiracy sites--Breitbart, Drudge,

FOX, Trump, Brietbart, etc....ARE ALL IN.  Anyone who thinks that Donnie will go away quietly.....is kidding themselves.

He will do WHATEVER he can....with whatever means he has.  And he will do so working with Sean and others in the "alt right" media.

I give Mueller 3 months AT MOST before Donnie cans him.  Mueller won't mess around.....and before 3 months are gone he will get too close.  If Donnie thinks he can sway enough support using the alt right media....he will ABSOLUTELY DO SO.   All Donnie has to do is make sure there aren't 2/3 of Senators that will vote for impeachment (prior to that....a majority of the US House has to bring the impeachment charges up.....which will require about 10% of Republicans in the House to vote for them).

And he will be getting help from Ryan and McConnell and others.  There will be some very serious shit going down before this is over.....

This is a WAR that will be fought on the airwaves....and the internet.....to keep Donnies poll numbers from taking FURTHER....and to keep Congressional Republicans from bailing.  Donnie knows if his poll numbers tank further.....Republicans will save THEIR OWN ASS BEFORE HIS.

FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #376 on: May 19, 2017, 09:32:32 PM »
Fox News is all-in on the Seth Rich nonsense.

So are the Russians.

So are silly, debunked, I-wish-to-hell-they'd-just-go-away conspiracy sites--Breitbart, Drudge, ZeroHedge, etc.

Meanwhile, there's a dead son, a murdered brother, brokenhearted friends, a grieving family--and a bunch of desperate folks politicizing his death to get the spotlight off of TrumpCo's treason.

Despicable. Disgusting. But par for the course.


So we shouldn't be reading any of the myriad emails he left behind. RIP, with an emphasis on R.?


Any idea why Assange gave $20K for information leading to his murderer?
Had Assange done so before, has he done so since?
Why would Assange even be aware of his passing - he was in the UK & I'm not sure Seth's murder had made national news at that time.


Probably a right wing plot to take the heat off the Russians, except the data hadn't even been dumped at that point so there was no heat on the Russians?


So many questions - and now a call to stop any investigations, because he's a dead son, his heartbroken friends, his grieving family.
Your empathy is touching. - if not entirely convincing.


Despicable, Disgusting, Damnable (alliterations work in better in triplicate), but par for the course.
 (why the golfing aphorism - such an elitist game) Try "another day at the office", for the white collar crowd, "another day at the track", for the sportsmen. or "a walk in the park" for the loitering kind.


I have no idea who feeds Wikileaks it's data. The US Justice Department seems to believe it's disgusted insiders - see Chelsea Manning as an example - also an example of someone whose treatment IMO has been Despicable, Disgusting, & Damnable.


It's possible of course that Russia, China, North Korea or perhaps the Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians whose causes Seth championed might have fed the DNC files to Assange, although Assange denies this.


Better to damn the messenger than investigate the message. Better to bury his writings with his corpse. Wikileaks has such a long history of just making things up that we can't take Assuage at his word for anything.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #377 on: May 19, 2017, 09:37:59 PM »
Buddy
A few quick questions:


1) How many presidential impeachments in all of America's history?


2) How many succeeded?


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #378 on: May 19, 2017, 09:40:33 PM »
3

1
FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #379 on: May 19, 2017, 10:06:50 PM »
The "alt right press" now includes people like Hugh Hewitt in my mind.  I put him in the same boat or worse than Sean Hannity.  He is nothing more than a shill for the alt right.

Friday morning, Ryan told conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt that the recording was “a cause of concern” for him and other Republicans.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/19/paul-ryan-reacts-kevin-mccarthy-recording-238602

It make me so comforted ;).....that the Republicans aren't worried about THE SUBJECT MATTER....they are worried ABOUT WHO LEAKED THE SUBJECT MATTER.

That is like someone saying:

"I'm most concerned about who LEAKED the name of the rapist...not so worried that a rape existed."
FOX (TASS) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #380 on: May 19, 2017, 10:14:30 PM »
2


0


Andrew Jackson and Bill Clinton were both acquitted on all charges.
Tricky Dick resigned before either the house or the senate began deliberations.


Buddy, to some of us Nixon's reign was not part of a history lesson. We watched it real time.


Re-writing history only works when those that saw it unfold have died. WWI is probably safe as of now. - Give the Nixon period a few more decades.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #381 on: May 19, 2017, 10:18:09 PM »
Tricky Dick resigned before either the house or the senate began deliberations.

I know that.  But thanks for the history lesson.  I was including Tricky Dicky because he knew he didn't have the votes.  The only reason he resigned.

And....as I have said....the only reason that Donnie will resign, is if he doesn't have the votes. ;)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #382 on: May 19, 2017, 10:31:20 PM »
Over the coming weeks and months....on MANY WEBSITES....you will see a concerted effort by those in the "alt right" to DOWNPLAY RUSSIAGATE.....and ENCOURAGE FRIEDLINESS TOWARDS THE RUSSIANS.

I have no doubt that you may even see them on this website.  They  know....that this "game" is being played out in the press....on the internet.....and in the minds of the public.  So they will do anything....and pay ANYONE....to help them.

Just need to be aware of those folks who are friendly to the Russians.   Their fondness towards the Russians and Putin in particular......may have a VERY DARK UNDERSIDE.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #383 on: May 19, 2017, 10:33:07 PM »

Andrew Jackson and Bill Clinton were both acquitted on all charges.


That would be Andrew Johnson, not Andrew Jackson:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/presidential-impeachment-usa-often-has-happened/
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mati

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #384 on: May 19, 2017, 10:59:30 PM »
Dan Rather Live:

ALERT: Dan Rather will be live here on the News and Guts Facebook page to answer your questions at 5pm et. There is so much news today with the New York Times and Washington Post both breaking big stories. Please send in your questions now and we'll see you at 5!

https://www.facebook.com/newsandguts/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf

and so it goes

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #385 on: May 19, 2017, 11:00:55 PM »
So far in their history the US has impeached two presidents. Both were acquitted on all charges.


If this simple fact doesn't give you pause, it should.


Trump is a deeply flawed man.
Trump's presidency is a deeply flawed presidency.


If Trump is impeached you are asking a Supermajority of Congresscritters and a Supermajority of Senatorial Types to convict him of deeds that they may themselves have been party to.
Are you sure that your congressman never had business dealings with a Russian bank?
Never made a deal with a Russian Business, or was paid for commenting on Russian Media?


How about your State Senators. Did they attend Sochi, did they pay their way there, were they interviewed on RT? Who funded their last outing to Central America, their last ski trip to Norway or their wife, or mistresses last shopping spree in London?


All these things could be brought out in a trial. Bill got off when Larry Flynn offered a million to anyone who could prove they'd had sex with a Senator. The Senators folded like a cheap towel.


Why will this one be different? Are your Senators above reproach? Is Hillary happy to have her Russian and Ukrainian contributions thumbed through? Does your Congressman stand behind all his business dealings?
Easier to stand down and let the dust settle before your own suit gets soiled.


Why not attack Trump for the things we know he's done.
He's pulling the plug on the only healthcare plan you have.
He appointed Pruitt to run the EPA.
He thinks global warming is a Chinese plot.


Once Trump beats the Russiagate charges he's home free. You tried to bring him down and you failed.
If you come at the King, you best not miss. - So for gods sake, Come at the King with facts that are evident, facts that are proven, & facts that can bring him down.


I hate the prick too
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #386 on: May 19, 2017, 11:02:35 PM »

Andrew Jackson and Bill Clinton were both acquitted on all charges.


That would be Andrew Johnson, not Andrew Jackson:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/presidential-impeachment-usa-often-has-happened/



OOPS - Well they should have impeached Jackson, he was a SOAB!!

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #387 on: May 19, 2017, 11:04:42 PM »
Fox News is all-in on the Seth Rich nonsense.

So are the Russians.

So are silly, debunked, I-wish-to-hell-they'd-just-go-away conspiracy sites--Breitbart, Drudge, ZeroHedge, etc.

Meanwhile, there's a dead son, a murdered brother, brokenhearted friends, a grieving family--and a bunch of desperate folks politicizing his death to get the spotlight off of TrumpCo's treason.

Despicable. Disgusting. But par for the course.

I agree. I can only speak for myself and that is that I'm not interested in that for political reasons, as I'm against Trump, the Republicans, the Corporate Democrats, Putin, etc. I sincerely hope that Seth Rich didn't leak the DNC mails to Wikileaks, because if he did and it gets known, things will get very, very messy. I'm also surprised that there is no attention for this from mainstream media whatsoever, and I don't mean the latest BS from Fox and that silly attention-craving private investigator, but I mean, the story in general. Although surprised isn't the right word.

That's my biggest fear with this all-out war on Trump and 'Russia'. That it takes too long and backfires.

In a simplisitc, back-and-white world, certainly Democrats would have but two choices:

A) See how deeply Trump worked with a hostile foreign state to subvert our democracy, and just let everything else go to hell; or...

B) Focus solely on internal problems, and surrender our democracy to Americans who invite hostile outsiders to influence the electorate, keeping our fingers crossed that those hostile outsiders will change their minds next time and let free elections take place so progressives can attain and retain positions of power so we can deal with those issues.

I don't know about the foreign hostile state, but Trump is definitely in bed with Russian oligarch money. Like most American politicians are in one way or another. There still is very little hard evidence - at least shared with us, the people - about that meddling in the elections.

If it is so easy to sway the American elections, and you believe that, you also believe that the American people is stupid. And if the American people is that stupid apparently you can only sway their minds by employing the same tactics, right? That's a cul-de-sac. That won't solve anything and more importantly, you're not winning anyone over this way, except liberal know-it-alls.

There is so much bloodthirsty intensity in all this that I fear that to a lot of people this will look like a subversion of democracy and Trump is the victim. That's how it would look to me, if I didn't know any better. But you need those people on your side if you really want to change things! A lot of those people aren't evil or dumb, they're desperate!

Fortunately, the world is neither so simplistic nor so black-and-white. There are at this moment tens of millions of smart people fully capable of simultaneously walking and chewing gum; these people know that we can both investigate Trump's aiding and abetting of Putin AND work on the dozens of issues facing Americans today. We can look into whether and how deeply Flynn's and Manafort's criminal actions extend into the White House AND show Americans that liberals (and not conservatives) have given America most of those things it cherishes most.

But, Jim, almost all the attention goes out to this Trump-Russia-thing. To me and my limited perspective here in Europe with almost only the ASIF and Youtube as my resources, it looks as if this is all-consuming, feeding on itself, especially on Democrat websites. I've checked a few in the past few days and all they're about is Trump-Russia-Trump-Russia-Trump-Russia.

Where is the attention to all that stuff that is going to be needed to sway enough American people so that real change can come about? Does that only come into play after Trump is gone? What if it takes months and months, or even up to the next presidential election? Is there any strategy to this? Why not let Trump and the GOP f**k up some more together so that they get wiped out in the next elections, and focus all the energy on breaking the hold of Corporatist politicians on the Democratic Party? The primary reason that Trump is president, is because of the massive mistake of letting Clinton run and the way her campaign was run. The Democrats need to own that mistake and learn from it, instead of going on a witch-hunt, rightly or not.

The election simply hasn't stopped, and it won't be over until everyone has chosen the lesser evil. But it's really important there is a third choice before people get to choose again. And that's why it's so important to get priorities straightened out.

You say both can be done at the same time, but to me it looks like one thing needs to be done first and then the other can be done.  I think that's a strategic mistake. Get your own house in order while the other house destroys itself. Because it will.

Those consuming only right wing media--or at least living on a diet consisting primarily of it--can be easily misled into thinking there's nothing to see, no "there" there; Fox barely mentions Russia, and conservative talk radio is working overtime trying to fool its listeners into thinking this is all a witch hunt and an effort to delegitimize Trump. But this isn't nothing. Far from it. And if the steadily increasing drip-drip-DRIP of denial and obfuscation from Washington doesn't illustrate that, the multiple grand juries looking into things certainly should.

I agree with you, but a lot of what I see from the rest of mainstream media, isn't all that better. It seems everyone has an agenda, and we ain't in it. It's all about pushing ratings and ideologies.

On another note: there is absolutely no way that Trump gets eight years out of this. People with favorability ratings in the 30s simply don't get re-elected. In fact, people with ratings in the 30s are prone to getting primaried. And Trump has absolutely NOTHING up his sleeve that will reverse those terrible numbers. The emperor has no clothes--and very few are afraid to tell him that.

I hope you're right, and I hope this isn't done in a way that lets the GOP nutters get at the helm.

What a mess...

And what Terry says.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #388 on: May 19, 2017, 11:32:20 PM »
All these things could be brought out in a trial. Bill got off when Larry Flynn offered a million to anyone who could prove they'd had sex with a Senator. The Senators folded like a cheap towel.


Why will this one be different? Are your Senators above reproach? Is Hillary happy to have her Russian and Ukrainian contributions thumbed through? Does your Congressman stand behind all his business dealings?


Terry,

Great post. I for one would love some light shined in the dark corners, Hillary's included. I don't believe impeachment will work but I'd like some honest disclosures and the only way that will occur is with an investigation (I've half a mind that both parties were involved with Russia). We've all got dirty secrets but some are damaging well away from the self.

Normally, I'd say there are much better uses of time but anything that derails 45's agenda may be of benefit. At least the potential crime is of grander scale than lying about extramarital fellatio!

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #389 on: May 19, 2017, 11:35:05 PM »
Before going to bed, I also wanted to add that I really like and respect all of you. Please, don't think ill of me or reproach me that I'm trying to steer your POV and re-direct your energy. I know that in the end we all want the same.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #390 on: May 20, 2017, 12:22:19 AM »
In today's news:

1) Trump tells Russians that firing "nut job" Comey relieved him of the pressure he felt from being probed.



Further to your post, the linked article is entitled: “Trump: Firing 'nut job' FBI chief 'eased pressure”.  It seems to me that the Congressional GOP leadership needs to grow a spine, can call this obstruction of justice.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39983257


Extract: “Donald Trump reportedly told his Russian guests that firing Mr Comey had relieved the "great pressure" his administration was under because of the Russia investigation.”
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mati

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #391 on: May 20, 2017, 12:46:01 AM »
hmm
so this is no longer an ice state and global warming blog.
sorry, but i think i'll take a holiday from the histeronics.
mati
and so it goes

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #392 on: May 20, 2017, 01:40:47 AM »
I sincerely hope that Seth Rich didn't leak the DNC mails to Wikileaks, because if he did and it gets known, things will get very, very messy.
His shooting is the only messy detail in the picture. If it had something to do with the leaks, we would be in spy novel land. But it seems maximum unlikely to me, given the shape of the whole mess:

There is nothing whatsoever known about who shot him. It is the only isolated piece in the puzzle. He died in an area known for robbery and violence. He was reported as being very patriotic, plus the leaks turned out an almost total nothingburger. Maybe he was blackmailed, but about that we would plausiblo almost certainly have heard already (given all the other leaks and stuff dug out meanwhile).  I would find it more plausible "the Russians" shot him to lay out a red herring (but then they should have layed out some additional track).

No news since last year.

Therefore it is a waste of time and neurons to speculate any further about this puzzle piece. (Except you work for Fox News etc.)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 01:48:33 AM by Martin Gisser »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #393 on: May 20, 2017, 01:46:35 AM »
In today's news:

1) Trump tells Russians that firing "nut job" Comey relieved him of the pressure he felt from being probed.

2) The Russian probe has reached a current WH official.

Drip, drip, drip...



Jesus
Whoever it is that is listening in on conversations between the Trumpster and his Evil Russian guest should watch his back side.
I understand that just today a space opened up where they keep whistleblowers under detention!!
Terry


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #394 on: May 20, 2017, 02:00:50 AM »
Here are words from the DOJ on whether Trump's actions could be taken as obstruction of justice:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/19/trump-officials-he-looks-more-and-more-like-a-complete-moron

Extract: "Asked whether those comments could be construed as intent to interfere in the FBI’s investigation, a Justice Department official told The Daily Beast, “absolutely.”"
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 03:28:16 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #395 on: May 20, 2017, 02:15:40 AM »
I sincerely hope that Seth Rich didn't leak the DNC mails to Wikileaks, because if he did and it gets known, things will get very, very messy.
His shooting is the only messy detail in the picture. If it had something to do with the leaks, we would be in spy novel land. But it seems maximum unlikely to me, given the shape of the whole mess:

There is nothing whatsoever known about who shot him. It is the only isolated piece in the puzzle. He died in an area known for robbery and violence. He was reported as being very patriotic, plus the leaks turned out an almost total nothingburger. Maybe he was blackmailed, but about that we would plausiblo almost certainly have heard already (given all the other leaks and stuff dug out meanwhile).  I would find it more plausible "the Russians" shot him to lay out a red herring (but then they should have layed out some additional track).

No news since last year.

Therefore it is a waste of time and neurons to speculate any further about this puzzle piece. (Except you work for Fox News etc.)


Confess to being a neophyte on the subject but isn't the reddit connection new? I certainly wasn't aware of his feelings re. the supposed Turkish genocide.
I see him in a more nuanced light now. The extreme patriotism is only one part of the picture. Possibly a thorough reading his posts will give a clearer picture of who he was.
The reddit community blew my mind when they correctly solved the Westworld Series months before it was revealed.
I'll check back to see what they've uncovered.


Re. The leaks being a nothingburger - aren't these the leaks that Putin is accused of feeding to Wikileaks, the very ones that brought Hillary down?
Isn't this the basis for the whole impeach Trump brouhaha?


I personally am in full agreement that there is nothing there, but if it's what caused the Democrats to lose, (according to the Democrats), then it's hardly a nothingburger.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #396 on: May 20, 2017, 03:56:21 AM »
Apparently, having Mueller on the job will not prevent Comey from testifying in public before the Senate Intelligence Committee:

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/19/james-comey-to-testify-in-public-session/

Extract: "Comey’s planned appearance in an open session of the Senate Intel Committee ensures his testimony will be public.
...
The joint press release issued by Senators Burr and Warner stated that the open hearing would be scheduled “after Memorial Day.”"
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #397 on: May 20, 2017, 01:48:04 PM »
1)  There was NEVER any "choice" of going after Donnie on RussiaGate or not. HE IS IN RUSSIA'S BACK POCKET.  THEY FINANCE HIM.  WITHOUT RUSSIA....HE IS DEAD MEAT.

2)  If you DON'T go after him on RussiaGate....he is just going to "mow you over."  He is a bully.  He doesn't care if you lay down.

3)   Donnie's idea of a perfect presidency....is one like Russia:  Where it really ISN'T a democracy.....where journalists can be jailed at will......and where the president decides who makes big money and who doesn't.....and where you have one network:  TASS FOX

So there was NEVER any REAL choice about going after Donnie or not (unless you wanted to get mowed over).  He broke the law...and you go after him.

 
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #398 on: May 20, 2017, 02:33:21 PM »
1)  There was NEVER any "choice" of going after Donnie on RussiaGate or not. HE IS IN RUSSIA'S BACK POCKET.  THEY FINANCE HIM.  WITHOUT RUSSIA....HE IS DEAD MEAT.

Again, you say Russia. But what you mean is Oligarchs Sans Frontières. And I also thought that Trump was financed by Mercer, when the latter saw that psycho Ted Cruz was destroyed by Trump. But Mercer has probably been doing business with Russian billionaires as well (every mega-rich person can be tied to another mega-rich person) and so he can undoubtedly be fit into the GlennBeckian charts as well. 

I've just read that the Saudis like Donnie. If they hadn't liked him, he'd already been gone by now, as we all know how big Saudi and Israeli influence on US politics are. Talking about collusion. But they are not the enemy, of course, given how much weaponry they buy from American firms. They are friends.

2)  If you DON'T go after him on RussiaGate....he is just going to "mow you over."  He is a bully.  He doesn't care if you lay down.

I totally agree that this is one of the things that you can hurt Trump with, almost as much as all those policies he's implementing that go right against his promises, the way he's trying to make the rich even richer, killing people by depriving them of health care, and continuing the illegal wars.

But the way the Democrats, some Republicans and the mainstream media seem to go about this, is an all-out attack, or perhaps I should say all-or-nothing. There is hardly any attention for other stuff. Everything boils down to how horrible a person Donald Trump is, and a lot of people are not swayed by it. It makes them even more convinced that the establishment elite are trying to liquidate outsider Donnie.

That's what makes the overt push for impeachment/imprisonment so dangerous, politically speaking. If it doesn't happen, or takes too long, the tables might turn. And then what? Then you can't even sway people with a good and honest platform anymore. Then it will be your Reichstag fire.

3)   Donnie's idea of a perfect presidency....is one like Russia:  Where it really ISN'T a democracy.....where journalists can be jailed at will......and where the president decides who makes big money and who doesn't.....and where you have one network:  TASS FOX

Yeah, well, it was already a lot like that. I've watched enough documentaries about American culture, politics and economics in the past decade to know that democracy and freedom are very relative terms in the US. And all American media outlets, in the end, are owned by a handful of people. CNN, MSNBC and CBS, what I've seen of them, aren't that much different from Fox. They all have to stay on message or they don't get paid (handsomely).

So there was NEVER any REAL choice about going after Donnie or not (unless you wanted to get mowed over).  He broke the law...and you go after him.

You can also destroy him and the GOP during the next elections by attacking them on how they are totally failing at governing because all their lies and propaganda were totally unpragmatic to begin with, and offering a platform that offers the things that most Americans really care about: universal healthcare, free college, renewable energy, getting the troops back home, breaking up the banks, getting Wall Street under control.

And let it be offered by people that are willing to stand up for these ideas and that are trustworthy and transparent, not the Republican-Light that the Democratic Party has been turned into by corporate whores. I mean, there's a reason Bernie Sanders is currently the most popular politician in the US by far. America needs more of those.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #399 on: May 20, 2017, 05:55:17 PM »
The linked article is entitled: “Impeachment: it’s political”.  It indicates that unless the FBI can produce clear & convincing evidence of major wrong doing on Trump's part, he is bulletproof from impeachment, because impeachment is a political process.  Hopefully, the FBI can at least get Trump on obstruction of justice charges.


http://www.salon.com/2017/05/20/impeachment-it-is-political_partner/


Extract: “Republicans have a majority in the House and the Senate. Does that essentially make Trump bulletproof? More or less.

Although it is possible that Republican members of Congress could join with Democrats in calling for Trump’s removal, as we saw happen in the run-up to Nixon’s resignation over the Watergate scandal, today’s polarized political environment makes such an occurrence unlikely absent clear and convincing evidence of major wrongdoing. While Nixon’s impeachment was likely inevitable, with Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress in 1974, today Republican defections from Trump would be essential to any movement toward impeachment.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson