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Archimid

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1150 on: August 31, 2017, 02:55:52 AM »
Robert Mueller Eliminates Trump’s Trump Card

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/08/robert-mueller-eliminates-trumps-trump-card.html

Quote
Donald Trump’s ability to issue presidential pardons has been the ultimate weapon looming over Robert Mueller’s investigation. Trump could potentially pardon himself of any crimes. More importantly, he could dangle a pardon to his former staffers to encourage them not to supply Mueller with any incriminating information on Trump. Mueller is apparently handling his investigating like the prosecution of a mob boss, pressuring underlings to flip on the boss. Trump’s advantage is that, unlike a mob boss, he can give out an unlimited number of get-out-of-jail-free cards.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1151 on: August 31, 2017, 04:40:08 AM »
What I meant to write above was "Mueller is working with the New York AG".  I corrected the original entry above.  Hopefully I won't have the same fate as Donnie's Phoenix rally organizer.🙄
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1152 on: August 31, 2017, 08:05:06 AM »
I've read that Bill Clinton gave a $500,000 talk in Moscow while Hillary was Sec, of State.
Is this true?

Yes. It's right there in Clinton's 2010 tax returns :
http://pfds.opensecrets.org/N00000019_2010.pdf

Right between the Capetown (6/27/2010) and San Francisco (6/30/2010) speeches.
You could not find this, Terry ?

Also remember the context : This is during a time that the Obama administration wanted to improve ("reset") the relationships with Russia.

Apparently, Putin did not want that since he continued to violate human rights in Russia, which ultimately led to the  Magnitsky Act in 2012. And from that point on it gets really interesting...
 
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1153 on: August 31, 2017, 08:27:30 AM »
Remember that Sergei Magnitsky was the Russian lawyer who uncovered a state-sponsored $ 230 million tax fraud scheme. After he reported the case to the Russian authorities, he was taken into custody and held in prison for a year where he was eventually beaten to death in late 2009.

A portion of that $230 million made it to the New York real estate market, which triggered Preet Bharara, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York to take on the case.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/manhattan-us-attorney-announces-civil-forfeiture-complaint-against-real-estate

Preet Bharara was fired by Donald Trump, and his successor quickly settled the case for $ 5.9 million.

More details in various places, including here :
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/07/12/doj-settled-massive-russian-fraud-case-involving-lawyer-who-met-with-trump-jr/
Or just Google the "Prevezon case".
and note what happened to a key witness in that case Nikolai Gorokhov who was also the lawyer for the Magnitsky family.

You can't make this stuff up, folks.
It's like a mafia movie unfolding. And it is real.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 10:02:44 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1154 on: August 31, 2017, 11:46:10 AM »
ABSOLUTELY REAL.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1155 on: August 31, 2017, 01:19:34 PM »
As Donnie and family are stripped of any last doubt that the are as guilty as sin, and we go through the next several months of tv hearings and legal chess.....the question of just how WIDE the net will be now becomes more prominent:

1). Tier 1 is Donnie and anyone who helped in executing the collusion with Russia.

2). Tier 2 is those who knew in real time, and helped in trying to coverup....but weren't involved in the actual execution or planning.

3). Tier 3 are those that didn't know in real time....but found out later, and still chose to help coverup.

4). Tier 4 are those that knew what was going on...or knew what did happen...but chose not to coverup...but also chose NOT to say anything.  Congressmen fall into this group...and I suspect they have at least political jeopardy.....and possible removal from office.

As you work your way down that outline....you can see that the net that catches Congressmen, ex Congressmen (right Jason😳), friends (Rudy), fake journalists (Sean Hannity, Jeanine Pirro, FOX News), etc......that net could be pretty large.

This will take a long time to play out....and many of those involved may not be charged until AFTER Donnie is removed from office.  Which means they won't be pardoned by Donnie.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 04:23:35 PM by Buddy »
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1156 on: August 31, 2017, 02:12:22 PM »
Mueller's brilliant move to share evidence with the NY State AG pretty much wipes out Trump's ability to make his crimes go away via a flush of pardons. And it also makes the GOP's wish to make this all disappear that much more difficult and unlikely, since even a complete defunding of the Mueller investigation would be but a mere bump in the road.

IOW: the Trump administration is a dead man walking.

We know Russia worked to influence the 2016 election through a number of mechanisms, including implantation of thousands of pieces of anti-Clinton fake news (which, sadly, a number of people who should know better fell for), and also including direct manipulation of voting machinery in several states.

We know that the Trump campaign had a little quid pro quo deal with Russia to give them what they want in exchange for their help in getting him elected.

We know that Trump, his team, and some in the GOP high command have worked to obstruct justice.

But mostly we know that, sooner rather than later, arrests will be made; trials will be held; guilty verdicts will be rendered; people will go to jail; reputations will be destroyed.

It's only a matter of time.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1157 on: August 31, 2017, 04:14:39 PM »
[

Yes. It's right there in Clinton's 2010 tax returns :
http://pfds.opensecrets.org/N00000019_2010.pdf

Right between the Capetown (6/27/2010) and San Francisco (6/30/2010) speeches.
You could not find this, Terry ?

Also remember the context : This is during a time that the Obama administration wanted to improve ("reset") the relationships with Russia.

Apparently, Putin did not want that since he continued to violate human rights in Russia, which ultimately led to the  Magnitsky Act in 2012. And from that point on it gets really interesting...


It's sometimes difficult to locate verifiable sources for such sometimes contentious issues. I wasn't aware that Bill Clinton's tax records were openly available, thanks for the info.


Do you happen to know if the Clinton Foundation lists it's contributors in any official/reliable documents? I've read that Ukrainian oligarchs were donating obscene amounts even as they were begging for IMF funding. Again I'm aware that you probably wouldn't accept Sputnik or RT as sources.


WRT the Magnitsky Act, I'm relieved that the US Senate is taking an interest in how prisoners are treated around the world, and hopefully at home. Perhaps our Saudi and Egyptian allies will take note.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1158 on: August 31, 2017, 04:32:09 PM »
Mueller's brilliant move to share evidence with the NY State AG pretty much wipes out Trump's ability to make his crimes go away via a flush of pardons. And it also makes the GOP's wish to make this all disappear that much more difficult and unlikely, since even a complete defunding of the Mueller investigation would be but a mere bump in the road.

IOW: the Trump administration is a dead man walking.

We know Russia worked to influence the 2016 election through a number of mechanisms, including implantation of thousands of pieces of anti-Clinton fake news (which, sadly, a number of people who should know better fell for), and also including direct manipulation of voting machinery in several states.

We know that the Trump campaign had a little quid pro quo deal with Russia to give them what they want in exchange for their help in getting him elected.

We know that Trump, his team, and some in the GOP high command have worked to obstruct justice.

But mostly we know that, sooner rather than later, arrests will be made; trials will be held; guilty verdicts will be rendered; people will go to jail; reputations will be destroyed.

It's only a matter of time.


Jim
Could you provide a few examples of the fake Hillary news that Russia promulgated?


The second bolded section is my hope also. In my experience when presidents have died, or been forced out of office without a trial, the regimes that followed were not much of an improvement.
Roosevelt gave us Truman, Kennedy gave us LBJ & Nixon gave us Ford.
Reagan might also be seen as a product of Nixon's resignation, but that is at best a tenuous connection.


Terry

Hefaistos

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1159 on: August 31, 2017, 04:46:22 PM »
Republican Rep Dana Rohrabacher says on Hannity's radio show that he and President Donald Trump will meet so he can relay information he received from WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange on the DNC hack last year.

"If the information comes out, there will be an outrage among the American people that their time has been wasted,” Rohrabacher told Hannity. “They've had this story over and over and again shoved down their throats as if the Russians colluded with Donald Trump, and this is an attempt, as I say, to negate their vote in the ballot booth.”

"When the American people realize that this is a con job and a power grab they'll be upset." he added. "I'm trying to get this out in the public now where we can get this Julian Assange thing straightened out so that people know that it wasn't the Russians that hacked into the system, and that's not how this information was released."

https://www.rt.com/usa/401565-assange-rohrabacher-trump-dnc/

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1160 on: September 01, 2017, 03:58:56 AM »
Apparently, Manafort was taking notes on his cellphone during the June 26th meeting set-up by Donald Trump, Jr.; and if the notes relate to that meeting then they are particularly damning:

Title: "Manafort Notes From Russian Meet Refer to Political Contributions"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/manafort-notes-russian-meet-contain-cryptic-reference-donations-n797816

Extract: "Paul Manafort's notes from a controversial Trump Tower meeting with Russians during the 2016 presidential campaign included a mention of political contributions near a reference to the Republican National Committee, two sources briefed on the evidence told NBC News.

The contents of the note, which have not been previously disclosed, elevated the significance of the June 2016 meeting for congressional investigators, who are focused on determining whether it included any discussion of donations from Russian sources to either the Trump campaign or the Republican Party.

It is illegal for foreigners to donate to American elections. The meeting happened just as Trump had secured the Republican nomination for president, and he was considered a longshot to win. Manafort was the campaign chairman at the time.

Manafort's notes, typed on a smart phone and described by one source briefed on the matter as cryptic, were turned over to the House and Senate intelligence committees and to Special Counsel Robert Mueller. They contained a reference to political contributions and "RNC" in close proximity, the sources said."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1161 on: September 01, 2017, 04:31:06 AM »
Mueller is gaining allies and Trump is losing them:

Title: "Exclusive: Mueller Enlists the IRS for His Trump-Russia Investigation"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/exclusive-mueller-enlists-the-irs-for-his-trump-russia-investigation/ar-AAr3MOz?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "Special counsel Bob Mueller has teamed up with the IRS. According to sources familiar with his investigation into alleged Russian election interference, his probe has enlisted the help of agents from the IRS’ Criminal Investigations unit.

This unit—known as CI—is one of the federal government’s most tight-knit, specialized, and secretive investigative entities. Its 2,500 agents focus exclusively on financial crime, including tax evasion and money laundering. A former colleague of Mueller’s said he always liked working with IRS’ special agents, especially when he was a U.S. Attorney.
And it goes without saying that the IRS has access to Trump’s tax returns—documents that the president has long resisted releasing to the public."
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1162 on: September 01, 2017, 07:58:24 AM »
Do you happen to know if the Clinton Foundation lists it's contributors in any official/reliable documents? I've read that Ukrainian oligarchs were donating obscene amounts even as they were begging for IMF funding. Again I'm aware that you probably wouldn't accept Sputnik or RT as sources.

OK. The previous allegation you vented (about Clinton's Russia speech) was debunked after a Google search and two clicks.

This new one (bolded above) was a little harder, but still no more than 30 minutes of searching revealed the facts and the context, and there is nothing there :

One Ukrainian billionaire and philanthropist is a significant contributor to the Clinton Foundation, and has been since 1994. When Clinton was to become Secretary of State, the Clinton Foundation itself has set some clear guidelines on what to do with foreign contributions to the Foundation. Here is that memorandum of understanding with the White House :
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/understanding.pdf

It clearly states that IF a contributor from a foreign country would increase their level of donation to the Foundation during the time that Clinton was Secretary of State, that :

Quote
the Foundation will share such countries and the circumstances of the anticipated contribution with the State Department designated agency ethics official for review, and as appropriate, the State Department's designated agency ethics official will submit the matter for review by a designated official in the White House Counsel's Office.

This clearly sets rules on potential conflict of interest and for your claim specifically, this clause was never invoked, so this Ukrainian did not change his level of donations even when Ukraine was "begging for IMF funding" as you call it.

So NO, Terry. There is nothing there !

But there is something more troubling about your bold claims.
When you write "I've read that" it makes me believe that you have NOT done ANY fact checking on this particular claim. It seems from your last sentence that you just read an article on RT and then take it as truth, adding some more dramatic clauses "obscene amounts" and "begging for IMF funding" along the way. And not a single reference.

Let me tell you one thing : This is the last time that I fact-checked your bold pro-Russian claims. Next time you can do the fact checking yourself, and please add some CONTEXT.

Thanks
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1163 on: September 01, 2017, 08:13:06 AM »
Could you provide a few examples of the fake Hillary news that Russia promulgated?

It does not work that way, Terry.

It's not that Russian smear articles against Clinton are signed with "I'm an PR agent funded and controlled by the Russian government".

There is an huge network of bloggers and commenters and trolls, and they operate in echo chambers which are shared with American and European echo chambers, who amplify fake news stories. Part of this network are the official Russian news outlets : RT, Sputnik etc, from which YOU apparently get your misinformation. As witnessed by the two stories I just debunked.

[edit] Remember ClimateGate ? Russian hackers stole CRU emails, and published them, and the right wing media blew up the story. Same thing happened during the presidential elections (and is still happening), only on a vastly wider scale.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 08:38:54 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1164 on: September 01, 2017, 01:44:18 PM »
For those of you hoping that Donnie is going quit in the next few weeks as some people would have you believe....I don't buy it.

I think he will quit eventually....but only when he literally has no way out....ala Richard Nixon.

Until then....he will keep lying, probing, doing anything he can do to ride this out.  His family...and the Kushner family have everything at risk....and they are now "all in."

So hunker down.....order that next keg and another pallet of popcorn...🍺🍿
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1165 on: September 01, 2017, 03:48:12 PM »
RobD
I'm sure you find solace in believing what the majority believes, and what by far the greater part of the media presents.
When you confirmed that Bill indeed did receive $500k for his Moscow speech, then later claim to have debunked this, you leave me questioning your consistency.


I've been uncomfortable with what I've uncovered in Ukraine since 2014. I too grew up believing that Russia was, if not an "Evil Empire", at least an opponent of "The West". My friends kept returning from Vietnam either in body bags, or more often horribly changed.
They sent my wife's son to Iraq twice, and he too came back a different man.
We had no business in Vietnam. We had no business in Iraq.


I marched for peace in Berkeley. I railed against your mid-east policies, and I was against the US when you overthrew the Ukrainian government (read a little Victoria Nuland). After Odessa the lines were drawn. I understood that Putin was playing Go, while the west was mired in Chess moves - Actually I thought I'd discovered something new, not realizing that Kissinger had written a book about this using the Russian term for Go -  :-\


I'm glad that you fit snugly into your environment.
Terry

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1166 on: September 01, 2017, 04:38:15 PM »
RobD
I'm sure you find solace in believing what the majority believes, and what by far the greater part of the media presents.
When you confirmed that Bill indeed did receive $500k for his Moscow speech, then later claim to have debunked this, you leave me questioning your consistency.
. . .

The event wasn't debunked, but the implication that it was unethical was debunked.
There's simply no reason why Bill, as a private citizen, shouldn't accept such an invitation.
It's not Hillary's responsibility to police Bill's behavior.  Indeed, his behavior has never been under Hillary's control at all, as the "blue dress" demonstrates in physical terms.

The highest ethical standards would dictate only some transparency (though he's legally entitled to privacy about his personal sources of income).  By freely providing information about his speaking income, Bill has demonstrated ethical excellence.  And Hillary's non-role in his speaking fees is plainly unimpeachable.

In effect, yes, the implication was debunked.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1167 on: September 01, 2017, 06:50:37 PM »
The highest ethical standards would dictate only some transparency (though he's legally entitled to privacy about his personal sources of income).  By freely providing information about his speaking income, Bill has demonstrated ethical excellence.  And Hillary's non-role in his speaking fees is plainly unimpeachable.

In effect, yes, the implication was debunked.
Again I miss a "like" button :-)

Sure there must be some evil intent behind the Clintons' and their foundation's radical transparency. Maybe they want good Donnie look bad?

https://www.clintonfoundation.org/contributors

[edit] P.S.: Here's how ridicu-lousy that Bill Clinton speech meme is:
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-donald-trump-makes-speaking-fees-compared-everyone-else-2015-8

http://publicspeaking.co.ke/post/10-highest-paid-public-speakers-in-the-world
Quote
1. Donald Trump, $1-1.5 million
...
2. Ronald Reagan, $1 million
...
3. Tony Blair, $616,000
...
4. Bill Clinton, $150,000- $450,000
...
5. Rudy Guilani, $270,000
...
6. Alan Greenspan, $250,000
...
7. Lance Armstrong, $100,000 and up
...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 06:58:43 PM by Martin Gisser »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1168 on: September 02, 2017, 04:47:24 AM »
I've been uncomfortable with what I've uncovered in Ukraine since 2014.
Me too. I studied the war in Donbass in detail, and there is no question about it : Russia is the aggressor and directly responsible for almost all of the 6,000 civilian deaths that war incurred.
Take it from the people of Mariupol who suffered rocket attacks directly from Russian forces :

And don't get me started on MH17.

Quote
I was against the US when you overthrew the Ukrainian government (read a little Victoria Nuland).

That is just Russian propaganda, without a single grain of evidence.
And an insult to the heavenly 100 who died in this popular uprising to oust a corrupt president who used the Ukrainian treasury as his personal bank account.

I know you have your opinions about Ukraine. But watch this, and please show a bit of humility for the struggles of that nation :

« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 08:46:51 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1169 on: September 02, 2017, 10:31:21 AM »
Rob:

Terry is part of the pro Putin faction.  Apparently stealing from Ukraine was ok.....as long as it was done by someone that was pro Putin.

Russia continues to try and control the flow of information, not only in Russia, but in places like the US........where it helped Donnie win the US election in order to have a patsy who is friendly to Russia.....and someone willing and anxious to plunder the US, and leave Vladimir to continue to plunder Russia.

Vladimir and Donnie are cut from the same cloth....with the exception that Trump is not nearly as smart as Putin....which is why Putin is so dangerous.  But both want their kingdoms where they can do whatever they want.....and get rich doing it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 01:11:08 PM by Buddy »
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Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1170 on: September 03, 2017, 05:20:13 AM »
I see the Russophobia is still in full flight here, quite amazing really. Anyways, here's an interesting article by CJ HOPKINS on The United States of Manufactured Hysteria.

It seems rather relevant to the 'discussions' taking place here ... at least from my perspective.

Oh but the US certainly did support neo-Nazis in the Ukraine's Maidan, specifically Svoboda and Pravy Sektor, Obama even said the Ukrainian military's bombing of its own civilian population in the east was "remarkably restrained"!

But no you're all right, the US corporatocracy is certainly right, and this rabid Russophobia is even farther right!

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1171 on: September 03, 2017, 05:23:51 AM »
If the Democrats can retake the house in the mid-term election, and if then both Trump and Pence are forced to leave office, then Nancy Pelosi would become president ;D
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1172 on: September 03, 2017, 07:33:59 AM »
If the Democrats can retake the house in the mid-term election, and if then both Trump and Pence are forced to leave office, then Nancy Pelosi would become president ;D

Interesting point! Assuming that the Democrats choose her to be Speaker, which isn't a certainty.

BudM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1173 on: September 03, 2017, 08:55:40 AM »
Oh but the US certainly did support neo-Nazis in the Ukraine's Maidan, specifically Svoboda and Pravy Sektor,
What are you talking about ?
Svoboda obtained 1.16 % of the vote in 2014 and Pravy Sektor 1.8 %.
The people of Ukraine probably the least "neo-Nazi" of any nation on the planet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014

And talking about neo-Nazi's, that hybrid group fighting for Novorossiya/Russia in Donbass seems to be crawling with neo-Nazis :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/06/nazis-are-core-of-russias-hybrid-army.html

Quote
Obama even said the Ukrainian military's bombing of its own civilian population in the east was "remarkably restrained"!

Zeug, you are either a victim of the Russian propaganda machine, or you are a part of it.
There is no evidence, not a single case, that the Ukrainian military bombed their own civilian population.

However, there is plenty of evidence that Russia repeatedly bombed civilians in Donbass, and then blamed Ukraine for it in their media coverage.

The Mariupol attacks, and the Volnovakha checkpoint attack, and Kramatorsk, and Artemivsk, attacked with cluster munition, and in Donetsk, against the very people that these "separatists" claim to protect, the deadly attacks on school 63, and the Leninsky bus stop, and the Jan 30 mortar attacks, ALL of these CLEARLY were fired from Russian controlled areas.

And despite the evidence that these attacks occurred from Russian controlled areas, Russian media consistently, and hypocritically, puts the blame on Ukraine.

That's no Russophobia. That's just fact checking.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 09:41:57 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1174 on: September 03, 2017, 02:59:54 PM »
Hi Rob,

your election results are from the 2014 presidential election... not the parliament? Are you confused?

Your contention that the people of Ukraine are "probably the least 'neo-Nazi' of any nation on the planet" seems a bit overwrought but I'd agree it's not the people who are the problem given that 1 in 5 Ukrainians are of ethnic Russian descent. But Rob, even the US Congress banned funding for the Azov Regiment in 2015 for being too obviously Nazi what with their Wolfsangel symbolism etc, before hilariously flip flopping on arming neo-Nazis in 2016 then flop flipping again in 2017 ... I think the US now officially does/doesn't support arming Nazis in Ukraine?

Then there's the openly Nazi torch light marches in support of the war against the ethnic Russian populations in the east which the Charlottesville neo-Nazi morons seem to have copied.

Do you know nothing of Ukrainian history, Stepan Bandera, OUN-B, the Galician Division of the Waffen SS, their WW2 mass murders of Jews, Poles, Russians etc? Your least 'neo-Nazi' government on the planet even renamed a major Kiev street in honour of Bandera! There are statues to him in downtown Lvov!!

Mate, you are either seriously deluded or obfuscating.

But anyways, here's the latest from Rob Parry on the lynch mob mania gaining traction in the US mainstream media re Russiagate Russophobia: Russia-gate’s Totalitarian Style

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1175 on: September 04, 2017, 01:39:09 AM »
Zeug
The problem as I see it is that some are buying into totally deceptive propaganda. There have
been two distinct stories coming out of Ukraine since the government was overthrown.


Knowing the truth is actually of little value when it's propaganda that sways the masses.
When the truth becomes so mired in obfuscation, and it's so much easier to parrot the prevailing mythology, then logic and common sense are close to being driven from the floor.


Unfortunately it seems likely that propaganda will win the day.
The CIA recently admitted to overthrowing the democratic government of Iran - back in 1953!
In 60+ years we may, or may not, learn why Ukraine's democratic leaders were driven out.


Help yourselves to another order of Freedom Fries. Remember the Maine, and that we don't want, "The smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud".tm


When Nuland stated that the US had spent upwards of $6B to overthrow the elected government I assume she is simply stating fact.
When thousands celebrated Stephan Bandera's birthday with a torch lit parade, Nazi symbols and chants of "Whoever doesn't jump is a Muscovite", I assume they're pro-Nazi.


The Ukrainian forces don't hide their Nazi affiliation, so why should we deprive them of their right to define who they are? They march under Nazi banners, sing Nazi refrains, and wear Nazi tattoos. They aren't Neo-Nazis, these are the real thing.


I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong in the future - but I am right this time around.


Terry


Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1176 on: September 04, 2017, 03:06:46 AM »
Just to see how out-of-touch with reality Russian propaganda is these days, just note that there is a right-wing ultra-nationalist in the Kremlin, and a right-wing nationalist in the White House, while Russian propaganda goes full steam against a fringe right-wing nationalist party in Ukraine, which obtained only 1.8 % of the vote in parliamentary elections and its leader obtained only 0.9 % of the vote in presidential elections.

And the difference between an ultra-nationalist and a nationalist is that a nationalist would declare fire-and-fury when a foreign nation threatens you, while an ultra-nationalist imposes fire-and-fury on its neighbor without any threat and then blames a fringe party in that nation for the violence.
 
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1177 on: September 04, 2017, 03:20:42 AM »
If you repeat it enough times, it will unfortunately become the common knowledge that will pass for truth.


They erect statues to Nazis in Ukraine while tearing down statues that celebrate the victors.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1178 on: September 04, 2017, 04:41:58 AM »
Terry, I presented you the facts (of the un-popularity of Ukriane's fringe right).
And no, I don't need to repeat these facts to become truth, since they are already true.

Facts are stubborn things.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 04:50:01 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1179 on: September 04, 2017, 07:41:47 AM »
Agreed that Bandera factions are marginal vote in Ukraine. Unfortunately, western powers are arming those margins, exactly as they did in the Gladio history. As before, no good will come of this, especially since Russia considers Ukraine central to Russian interest.

May i suggest a separate thread called "Ukraine" or sumpn. In this thread i am more interested in the evidence for and against Russian interference in the 2016 presidential erection.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1180 on: September 04, 2017, 08:33:15 AM »
Unfortunately, western powers are arming those margins, exactly as they did in the Gladio history. As before, no good will come of this, especially since Russia considers Ukraine central to Russian interest.

OK. I give you credit for stating an incredible amount of BS in just two sentences.
For starters, western powers are NOT arming these fringe right wing factions in Ukraine, and neither did they do so in the past. In fact, western powers have resisted arming even the regular Ukraine army, let alone these private battalions, for the sole purpose of not creating an excuse for Russia to further their military actions in Donbass. And when you write that Russia considers Ukraine to be central to their interest, that's colonialism. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and Russia has no business interfering in that nation's fate, and certainly not on its territory.

Quote
May i suggest a separate thread called "Ukraine" or sumpn. In this thread i am more interested in the evidence for and against Russian interference in the 2016 presidential erection.
sidd
I think that Russia's interference in Ukraine provides context about what Russia's ambitions are and how far they are willing to go with their interference in foreign nations to achieve them. It puts the interference in the US elections in perspective. But fine, if you want to create a new thread, please feel free to do so.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:00:42 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1181 on: September 04, 2017, 04:22:51 PM »
1) Clearly we disagree on extent of support for ukranian far right from the west. I do recommend the wiki article on the gladio cluster  for a historical review of similar actions, and my view is that  the same actors are now destabilizing ukraine.

2)  Russia's interests in the ukraine may be colonial, but are very real, nonetheless.

sidd




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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1182 on: September 05, 2017, 01:31:52 AM »
Tick.....tick......tick.....Donnie.  Enjoy your last months golfing before RussiaGate sends you to "The Big House."  If you think the White House is crappy....wait till you get a look at your room in "The Big House."

And while global warming continues to rear its ugly head...and moves towards Florida....we have a POS in the White House who continues to deny that global warming is happening.  And you have a senator and a governor that agree with him.  Florida.....you deserve much better.  Rick Scott cheated the government of hundreds of millions of dollars when he was CEO of Columbia Healthcare.

Florida....you need to get rid of Rick Scott and Marco Rubio.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 04:41:45 AM by Buddy »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1183 on: September 05, 2017, 04:28:15 AM »
1) Clearly we disagree on extent of support for ukranian far right from the west.
OK. Let's clear this up now :

Either the West did support Ukrainian far right, or it didn't.

If it did, you should be able to come up with evidence that it did so.
If it didn't you can't.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1184 on: September 05, 2017, 04:42:32 AM »
2)  Russia's interests in the ukraine may be colonial, but are very real, nonetheless.

First of all, it is "Ukraine", a sovereign nation. Not "the ukraine".

And Russia's colonial interests in Ukraine include annexing a portion of her territory, invading another part, and killing 6000 of its citizens and forcing a million people into misery, destabilizing world order along the way.

Since that is the kind of aggression that Russia is capable of inflicting on one foreign nation, why would it not be able to and want to meddle in the elections of other nations ?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1185 on: September 05, 2017, 05:42:27 AM »
1) I have begun a thread on the Ukraine, nazis and western support in the group called "The Rest" Perhaps we can discuss there.

2)  As to interests of russia in ukraine being evidence of russian proclivity to meddle in elections in the USA, i think that is quite a stretch. For example the USA would actively resist putative russian intervention in canada or mexico.  But that does not necessarily imply they would, in that event, intervene to get yeltsin in power in russia.

Oh wait. They did anyway ... but that is more an indictment of the USA that russia, is it not, especially absent russian meddling on the borders.

In a larger sense i feel the USA is now striking at imaginary enemies. The danger is that mr. trump has imagination. Unfortunately those imaginations are not exactly the ones the military-industrial-government complex wishes him to have.

sidd
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 06:03:40 AM by sidd »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1186 on: September 05, 2017, 09:44:41 AM »
1) I have begun a thread on the Ukraine, nazis and western support in the group called "The Rest" Perhaps we can discuss there.
Good. I was getting a bit tired of talking about this politically irrelevant fringe group, and the absence of evidence that the west has anything to do with them.

Quote
2)  As to interests of russia in ukraine being evidence of russian proclivity to meddle in elections in the USA, i think that is quite a stretch. For example the USA would actively resist putative russian intervention in canada or mexico.  But that does not necessarily imply they would, in that event, intervene to get yeltsin in power in russia.

Oh wait. They did anyway ... but that is more an indictment of the USA that russia, is it not, especially absent russian meddling on the borders.
Hard to follow your line of thought here.
But you are right that Russia's meddling in Ukraine (and denial that it did so) does not necessarily means that they are meddling in other nations.

Quote
In a larger sense i feel the USA is now striking at imaginary enemies. The danger is that mr. trump has imagination. Unfortunately those imaginations are not exactly the ones the military-industrial-government complex wishes him to have.

Not sure what you are trying to say about Tump here, but for your first sentence a simple question :
Is Steele's "dossier" correct or also "imaginary".
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1187 on: September 05, 2017, 04:49:37 PM »
Re: Steele dossier

The dossier seems to be a collection of raw, unvetted intelligence, so I lend little credence until proper vetting and attribution has been done. In this context there is an interesting conversation with David Cornwell and Ben MacIntyre in the new york times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/books/review/john-le-carre-ben-macintyre-british-spy-thrillers.html

The latter has a comment re Russian involvement in the dossier:

"I can tell you what the veterans of the S.I.S. [the British Secret Intelligence Service, or MI6] think, which is yes, kompromat was done on him. Of course, kompromat is done on everyone. So they end up, the theory goes, with this compromising bit of material and then they begin to release parts of it. They set up an ex-MI6 guy, Chris Steele, who is a patsy, effectively, and they feed him some stuff that’s true, and some stuff that isn’t true, and some stuff that is demonstrably wrong. Which means that Trump can then stand up and deny it, while knowing that the essence of it is true. And then he has a stone in his shoe for the rest of his administration."

That is actually a fair summation that i might support, while awaiting  further evidence.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1188 on: September 06, 2017, 08:59:53 PM »
US rep Nunez is acting very guilty these days.  Of course.....there is a reason for that.  He IS GUILTY.  I'll have to watch a little FOX News tonight after work.  Nunez' pal Chaffetz....is now lying for FOX.  Chaffetz is also guilty.....and likely the primary reason he quit his house seat after 1 year (they only have 2 year terms).

If I were Donnie.....or Nunez......or Chaffetz.....I would be VERY worried.

Tick......tick.......tick Donnie.🏌️ Enjoy the golf while you can. 😉
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1189 on: September 06, 2017, 11:59:20 PM »
It is still an open question as to whether Pence is guilty of obstruction of justice:

Title: "Is Mike Pence guilty of obstruction of justice? I asked 7 legal experts."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/6/16254908/mike-pence-donald-trump-comey-russia-obstruction-justice

Extract: "Last week, both the New York Times and Washington Post broke stories that might implicate Vice President Mike Pence in a potential obstruction of justice case against Trump. Although the precise details are sketchy, we know that Trump initially authored a lengthy memo stating his real reason for firing Comey (that he wanted to shut the Russia investigation down).

That memo was later rejected by White House Counsel, Don McGahn. But the reports from the New York Times and Washington Post indicate that before it was rejected, Trump read the memo aloud to some of his closest advisers, including Pence. Which means Pence was very likely aware of Trump’s real motivations regarding the Comey decision. Yet on the following day Pence went before the public and affirmed Trump’s cover story for firing Comey.

“If Pence gave any feedback in revising the letter to cover up those intentions and to give disingenuous legal reasons for firing Comey,” Jed Shugerman, a law professor at Fordham University, told me, “he is guilty of conspiracy to obstruct justice and aiding and abetting.”

Obstruction of justice is also a notoriously difficult crime to prove. As Jessica Levinson, a law professor at Loyola Law school, told me, “It requires that one attempt to corruptly ‘influence, obstruct, or impede’ the ‘administration of justice.’" And it’s not clear that Pence’s knowledge of the draft memo or his statements the following day “rise to the requisite level.”"
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1190 on: September 07, 2017, 07:03:33 PM »
The Senate Intelligence Committee is helping to let the public know just how widespread Russian interference into the 2016 election actually was:

Title: "Top senator: Russian Facebook ads were 'just the tip of the iceberg'"

http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-facebook-ads-election-trump-mark-warner-2017-9

Extract: "The vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Mark Warner, said Thursday that the purchase of $100,000 worth of Facebook ads from Russian-linked accounts during the 2016 election was only "the tip of the iceberg."

Facebook said in its statement that about 25% of the ads purchased by Russians "were geographically targeted." Facebook representatives told lawmakers behind closed doors Wednesday that the ad sales had been traced back to a notorious Russian "troll factory," according to The Washington Post. 

Warner said Thursday that while "we know about the hacking, as a former tech guy, what really concerns me is that there were upwards of 1,000 paid internet trolls working out of Russia taking over computers, making botnets, and generating news down to specific areas.""
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1191 on: September 07, 2017, 07:21:46 PM »
Why Mark Zuckerberg will never be President:

Quote
"Facebook's Fight Against Fake News Was Undercut by Fear of Conservative Backlash"

"According to two sources with direct knowledge of the company’s decision-making, Facebook executives conducted a wide-ranging review of products and policies earlier this year, with the goal of eliminating any appearance of political bias. One source said high-ranking officials were briefed on a planned News Feed update that would have identified fake or hoax news stories, but disproportionately impacted right-wing news sites by downgrading or removing that content from people’s feeds. According to the source, the update was shelved and never released to the public. It’s unclear if the update had other deficiencies that caused it to be scrubbed.

“They absolutely have the tools to shut down fake news,” said the source, who asked to remain anonymous citing fear of retribution from the company. The source added, “there was a lot of fear about upsetting conservatives after Trending Topics,” and that “a lot of product decisions got caught up in that.”

So: fear of right-wing whines over anti-Clinton face news being called out for the trash it was was enough to force Facebook to keep spreading the bullshit. Awesome. And now we have the most spectacularly stupid and incompetent person in history in charge of the country in part because of that.

Screw Zuckerberg and his team of spineless, overpaid cowards. And screw anyone gullible enough to have believed any of that pro-Trump and/or anti-Clinton rubbish.


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1192 on: September 07, 2017, 08:02:06 PM »
Jim
Are you arguing that Facebook should not be censoring the news, or that they should be censoring, but are shutting down the wrong sites?


American law favors free speech, Canadian law disallows "hate speech". Neither system is totally effective in attaining their stated goals.


I'd personally prefer some standard that incorporated truth into the equation, perhaps based on British defamation law where the fines can be very high, but the truthfulness of the statement offers get out of jail card if it can be proven.
The downside of civil law is that many posters today have no cash or property, and are therefor suit proof.


I don't use Facebook, but I quit them years before this issue raised it's head. Today I worry more about the power Google exerts when they pull ad revenue based on their own discretion. That's a lot of power for an entity to have, perhaps too much power.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1193 on: September 07, 2017, 08:12:09 PM »
In case you missed it -

New York Times
Quote
Russian Election Hacking Efforts, Wider Than Previously Known, Draw Little Scrutiny

The assaults on the vast back-end election apparatus — voter-registration operations, state and local election databases, e-poll books and other equipment — have received far less attention than other aspects of the Russian interference, such as the hacking of Democratic emails and spreading of false or damaging information about Mrs. Clinton. Yet the hacking of electoral systems was more extensive than previously disclosed, The New York Times found.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1194 on: September 07, 2017, 08:16:57 PM »
In case you missed it #2

Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections

Office of the Director of National Intelligence

Link to pdf.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1195 on: September 07, 2017, 09:12:07 PM »
In case you missed it #2

Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections

Office of the Director of National Intelligence

Link to pdf.


I believe I read this in it's entirety some time ago. Is there a particular portion you'd like to address?


In general I've never found US intelligence to be reliable. Too many instances of certainty that the Commies were hiding in the closet or assurances that WMDs were under the next sand dune.
More specifically I do believe that the NSA has snagged every e-mail sent or received during at least the last decade. When the Russians wanted to discredit Victoria Nuland over her activities in Ukraine, they simply released their wiretap of one of her conversations. Simple, effective, and never denied.


If Putin was up to all of his alleged machinations, don't you believe that a phone tap, or an e-mail  exists that incriminates him?  Do you believe that the NSA would shield Putin by not releasing these incriminating documents if they exist?


In short, if they had evidence they would have produced it long ago. They didn't, so I don't believe it exists.


Terry - Fool me once and a-a-a-a-a? GWB

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1196 on: September 07, 2017, 09:34:03 PM »
Fool me once and a-a-a-a-a? GWB

I just read a very interesting book called The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer, and it also had a nice quote by Bush the younger: You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you need to concentrate on.

He apparently said it as satire during some event, but there's always a kernel of truth in jokes. In this case the kernel is as big as Archimid's mangoes.  ;)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1197 on: September 07, 2017, 09:43:49 PM »
Jim P.....

Absolutely agree with your post RE Zuckerburg.  And that means that WE....all of us....need to work harder to combat fake news and the lies they spread.

Russia is CERTAINLY one of the primary forces at the heart of fake news.  And they will continue to spread lies as best they can.  Putin guides his own people through RT......intimidating (and killing) those that speak against his administration.....as well as having his trolls spread lies (whether in Russia or other countries around the world).

I would suspect that most any website of any significant size is "infected" by Vladimir trolls from time to time.  And that certainly would include this website.  It is really not much different than what FOX has done.  In fact....I would bet that they learned that if a FOX can get away with continually lying....why can't they do it as well?

Putin and Trump are cut from the same clothe:  Lying, greedy, and in search of as much power and money as they can grab by whatever means they can.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 12:17:06 AM by Buddy »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1198 on: September 08, 2017, 12:13:00 AM »
Mueller is seeking interviews with WH staff regarding the development of the statement on the Trump Tower meeting between Don Jr. and the Russian lawyer:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/07/politics/mueller-trump-air-force-one-statement-russian-lawyer/index.html
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1199 on: September 09, 2017, 10:14:51 AM »
In USA Today today :
A report by the Alliance for Securing Democracy (a non-profit organization) presents evidence that Russia meddled (smearing candidates, fake news stories etc) with the elections in at least 27 countries since 2004 :

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/09/07/alleged-russian-political-meddling-documented-27-countries-since-2004/619056001/
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 10:21:28 AM by Rob Dekker »
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