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Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #200 on: August 28, 2017, 12:56:16 PM »
According to this estimate, Hurricane Harvey is likely to become the costliest natural disaster in US history.
Initial conservative estimate of #Harvey $$ losses from Kevin M. Simmons, disaster economist at @AustinCollege, for @ProPublica:
https://twitter.com/EricHolthaus/status/901993792084992000

Edit:
Trying to keep politics out of this thread, but can't ignore this:
Mexico offers to help Harvey-soaked Texas
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/weather/2017/08/27/mexico-offers-help-harvey-soaked-texas
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Agric

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #201 on: August 28, 2017, 01:52:39 PM »
An analysis published March 2016 detailing the failure of Houston to prepare for this someday inevitable event, and its probable consequences locally and for the US economy:

https://www.propublica.org/article/hell-and-high-water-text

Harvey is already a catastrophic event, I hope it doesn't get much worse. Current forecasts don't seem to suggest significant probability of it intensifying and wandering far enough east to bring a dangerous amount of rain to New Orleans, I'm not sure what their present ability to cope would be if it did.

gerontocrat

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #202 on: August 28, 2017, 02:46:52 PM »
Harvey is already a catastrophic event, I hope it doesn't get much worse. Current forecasts don't seem to suggest significant probability of it intensifying and wandering far enough east to bring a dangerous amount of rain to New Orleans, I'm not sure what their present ability to cope would be if it did.
New Orleans? I am not so sure - see latest NHC image below. Each time I look it gets worse for New Orleans.
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Agric

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #203 on: August 28, 2017, 03:02:17 PM »
Yes, forecasts for NOLA rainfall through Friday have been worsening over last day but still remain 5 to 10", should not be dangerous. If Harvey drifted further east by not too much, especially if it remains over water for longer than expected, then things could get nasty for NOLA. There are about 5 million people in Houston wishing it in NOLA's direction  :-\

pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #204 on: August 28, 2017, 03:16:29 PM »
The 0z Euro has the second landfall the farthest east of any of its model runs, right along the TX/LA border on Wednesday.  While the synoptics have suggested no significant strengthening, the Euro also takes it farther offshore with more time over water than previous runs.  If these are trends and they continue, NOLA would certainly be in range for even more precip and impacts.

pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #205 on: August 28, 2017, 04:52:22 PM »
The 12z NAM 3k shows a scenario that keeps Harvey right offshore on top of Houston instead of the eastward drift.  Centers the precip maxima of 13-18 inches through Wednesday right in and around Harris County, so it's a bad solution for Houston.  Not sure how the NAM handles tropical system data, so the Euro may be better resolved.

pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #206 on: August 28, 2017, 05:53:49 PM »
The 12z GFS op follows position output seen in the NAM, and brings Harvey back ashore at 995mb with TS winds right up Gavelston Bay.  Max precip of up to 20 inches through 72 hours again centered in Houston metro.

TerryM

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #207 on: August 28, 2017, 06:10:08 PM »
Thanx for the updates!
Last I've heard was 39.7 inches - so far.
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #208 on: August 28, 2017, 06:47:46 PM »
Latest NHC track.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #209 on: August 28, 2017, 06:50:42 PM »
Storm-total rainfall from #Harvey now approaching 40" in the Houston area, per @NWSWPC. Up to 20" more still on the way. Unimaginable.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902202368820838400

#Harvey has brought so much rainfall that @NWS had to update the colour charts on its graphics in order to effectively map it.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902197514803134464
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #210 on: August 28, 2017, 06:55:01 PM »
Update on the rainfall threat from Tropical Storm #Harvey
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902207394062544896


The entire Texas Nat'l Guard was just activated for #Harvey storm assistance.
#Breaking Gov @GregAbbott_TX has activated all of the Texas National Guard. About 12,000 ready to help in #Harvey flooding
https://twitter.com/OmarVillafranca/status/902198939084099585
Text of the request at the link.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #211 on: August 28, 2017, 06:59:55 PM »
Latest high-res NAM (12Z) model shows 12-20" for the Houston area, but 10-15" for New Orleans. That's really frightening w/ inop pump system
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902199139173142528

Before Harvey, city of New Orleans said a forecast of ~12" in 24hrs might require evacuating the city. That forecast is arguably here, now.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902199433906888704

New Orleans is now in a flash flood watch. 5-10" of rainfall, "with locally higher amounts possible".
Decision time, @MayorLandrieu.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902205225737400320

Backup Plans
http://grist.org/briefly/new-orleans-is-now-planning-to-evacuate-the-city-if-a-heavy-rainstorm-comes/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #212 on: August 28, 2017, 07:47:53 PM »
"Evacuation plans are predicated on storm surge, not rainfall flooding. Rain evacuations difficult to impossible due to forecast limitations."
https://twitter.com/michaelrlowry/status/902000726129471489

"This is one reason why Houston didn't evacuate...they've tried that, and the costs were enormous."

Context from Hurricane Rita in 2005 for decision not to evacuate:

Exodus weighs heavily in death toll of 107
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-weather/hurricanes/article/Exodus-weighs-heavily-in-death-toll-107-1502590.php

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #213 on: August 28, 2017, 07:59:37 PM »
Houston-area (but not Houston itself) evacuations are ordered near the Brazos River.  Water may overtop levees.

List: Evacuation orders for Fort Bend Co. neighborhoods within levees
Quote
FORT BEND COUNTY, Texas - The Fort Bend County Office of Emergency Management released a list of mandatory and voluntary evacuations orders for neighborhoods near the Brazos River.

Many communities protected by Levee Improvement Districts (L.I.D.'s) may experience high water as levees could overtop, leading to failure in areas that have never flooded.

These are places where residents have never had to evacuate before and are now having to leave their homes.

After the water rises, depending on the water levels, residents may not be able to get in or out for two to three weeks as roads become inundated to depths which may surpass the capability of even the biggest pickup and semi trucks.

Emergency services will no longer be able to respond to emergencies in these flood zones. Residents who choose to stay make be cut off from local grocery stores for weeks, so they should make sure to have food available.

Those in single story homes must leave as the waters may rise higher than the roof line in some neighborhoods. ...
http://www.khou.com/amp/news/list-evacuation-orders-for-fort-bend-co-neighborhoods-within-levees/468540701


Edit for the sake of pets:
TERRY HIGH SCHOOL IS ACCEPTING CRATED PETS, PLEASE BRING FOOD/MEDICATIONS
https://mobile.twitter.com/khou/status/902222909023846400
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 09:05:39 PM by Sigmetnow »
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pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #214 on: August 28, 2017, 08:10:20 PM »
12z Euro holds on to the western LA landfall, so more precip across to NOLA and an onshore fetch.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #215 on: August 28, 2017, 08:15:28 PM »
SciAm & Jeff Masters provide an interesting article about Harvey & climate change:

Title: "Hurricane Harvey: Why Is It So Extreme?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hurricane-harvey-why-is-it-so-extreme/

Extract: "How did the storm rapidly blow up from Category 1 to 4, why is it so stuck over Houston, how can it possibly produce so much rain?

Hurricane Harvey is drowning southeastern Texas for the fourth day, putting a vast area under feet of water. Experts say Harvey has been stuck longer in one place than any tropical storm in memory. That is just one of the hurricane’s extremes; the storm is off the charts by many measures. Scientific American wanted to learn why, and we asked meteorologist Jeff Masters for help."

See also:

http://www.salon.com/2017/08/28/hurricane-harvey-why-is-it-so-extreme_partner/

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A-Team

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #216 on: August 28, 2017, 08:30:59 PM »
A better way of quantitatively following the situation (than radar-estimated rainfall) are USGS river gauges used by the Army Corps of Engineers to measure cubic feet per sec discharge of Buffalo Bayou as well as its height at multiple points downstream from the two 1940's reservoirs. These are updated online every 15 minutes or so. Some sites like Katy have real-time rain gauges (bottom).

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?site_no=08073700 Piney Pt gauge

This morning, the Corps began releasing another 8,000 cfs from behind the dams. This is a substantial amount of water, about 1.3% of the Mississippi River discharge of 593,000 cfs.

While the water level no doubt has gotten too high in the reservoirs, it's known it can safely work its way through adjacent neighborhoods and eventually find its way into Buffalo Bayou. However that would flood adjacent (pricier?) homes.

So they decided instead on a floodgate release, saying they know this will flood additional homes directly downstream. While these homeowners, especially the uninsured, will probably squawk later -- dozens of posted drone overflights show flooded streets but dry driveways and homes -- the Corps is arguing the workaround water would have flooded them later anyway.

That's debatable of course because much slower flow of workaround water could very well result in peak shaving, as the Corps well knows. However if heavy rain continues, it is six of one versus a half dozen of the other.

They seem not to have posted the exact time of floodgate opening but a surge is seen at the gauge directly below the Addicks Reservoir in the right time frame. This raised Buffalo Bayou water levels by 2.5' which could administer the coup de grâce for many homes which had been squeaking by so far. However this water will spread out farther downstream and the effect at lower gauging stations will be less pronounced than 24' above flood stage (red line, 2nd image).

Jeff Masters just posted maps and an excellent review of Addicks and Barker reservoir options and operations that complements news about the shaky earthen dams in a local newspaper:

https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/harvey-moves-back-over-water-historic-rainfall-will-continue

http://www.houstonpress.com/news/how-addicks-and-barker-reservoirs-are-handling-tropical-storm-harvey-9740819

http://www.houstonpress.com/news/if-the-addicks-and-barker-dams-fail-6594886
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 10:07:18 PM by A-Team »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #217 on: August 28, 2017, 08:35:31 PM »
Good to see Houston addressing circumstances that may keep flood victims from evacuating or accepting help:

UPDATE regarding George R. Brown [Convention Center] shelter: Hall "A" in the GRB has been designated for evacuees with pets...
https://twitter.com/BARC_Houston/status/902195338014056448

"If someone tries to deport you, I will represent you myself." Mayor @SylvesterTurner
Seek help regardless of your status
#ABC13 #Hounews
https://mobile.twitter.com/abc13antonio/status/902209173231984641
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A-Team

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #218 on: August 28, 2017, 09:12:38 PM »
Here is by far the best live-streaming, news aggregating Harvey site I have come across. Normally the WSJ is blocked but if you come in from the side, it is not. Far too many stories, tweets and youtubes elsewhere have either no time stamps or faked time stamps that update to fool google search with old news.

http://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/hurricane-harvey-live-coverage

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #219 on: August 28, 2017, 09:35:13 PM »
Has anyone here ever seen a Vertical Integrated Liquid reading as high as what Harvey has been consistently holding for 3 days now?

210kg/m^2 at landfall.
245kg/m^2 yesterday.
195kg/m^2 today.

I've never seen this, and I've watched hundreds and hundreds of tropical cyclones in my life. Maybe someone else has seen stronger numbers on radar before?


Unfortunately, it looks like we are about to go "Hyper-Active" for the Atlantic season.

With September and October being the months which usually have the highest thermodynamic potential...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 09:46:21 PM by WadeDanielSmith »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #220 on: August 28, 2017, 10:26:21 PM »
West of Harvey:  extreme heat. 
East of Harvey:  potential tropical cyclone just off the east coast of the U.S.

NWS: Away from the Gulf Coast, record heat returns to the West this week while a potential tropical cyclone skirts the Eastern Seaboard.
https://mobile.twitter.com/nws/status/902263895548669953
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WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #221 on: August 29, 2017, 01:00:12 AM »
Oh yeah, another weird, but not unprecedented thing about Harvey is that it made category 4 without ever really building a deck of -70C or colder cloud tops.

Usually, Category 4 and 5 Hurricanes build to -80C, -90C, sometimes even -100C cloud tops at peak intensity, then they level back off to -60C cloud tops and hold there for a while.

Harvey basically never had more than a few spotty clouds at -70C level.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #222 on: August 29, 2017, 01:07:30 AM »
Reviewing the Houston mayor’s tweets.  Not only did he not call for an evacuation, he actually recommended against it.  And downplayed the various forecasts of 30-50 inches of rainfall circulating on social media for one that says 15-25 inches.  For better or for worse, it seems clear he did NOT want any kind of mass evacuation.


Ignore unfounded, unsourced weather predictions that have needlessly frightened Houstonians. Get info from trusted outlets. @HoustonOEM
https://twitter.com/sylvesterturner/status/900847875952967680

I believe the mayor's tweet was referring to this "unsourced weather prediction" that was floating around social media a few days ago.
https://twitter.com/cara1o1/status/901833247004409857

Please think twice before trying to leave Houston en masse. No evacuation orders have been issued for the city. #Harvey
https://twitter.com/sylvesterturner/status/901154698316722176

No contra flow lanes or outbound shuttles from Houston for a reason -- only smaller coastal areas under evacuation orders.
https://twitter.com/sylvesterturner/status/901155299075264512
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #223 on: August 29, 2017, 02:02:47 AM »
Huge Exxon oil refinery damaged by heavy rain from Harvey
Quote
An ExxonMobil oil refinery near Houston was damaged by the remnants of Hurricane Harvey, and the company says chemicals could be released into the air.

Exxon (XOM) said a roof at the facility in Baytown "partially sank" because of heavy rain.

A report filed with Texas environmental regulators said Exxon expects air emissions linked to the damage will end by Friday at the facility. Exxon shut down the refining and chemical complex and said it was taking action to "minimize emissions."

Exxon declined to give details about the extent of the damage other than to say it plans to assess the full impact "once it is safe to do so." ...
http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/28/news/companies/exxon-refinery-baytown-harvey-damage/index.html


Per City of Shoreacres: Chemical release notice. Shelter in place. Stay inside. Close windows/doors. Turn off  air conditioning/ventilation.
https://twitter.com/readyharris/status/902292342933258240

Shoreacres is about 8 miles from Baytown -- and 10 miles from Dickinson, site of some of the worst flooding -- but has its own refinery....
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WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #224 on: August 29, 2017, 02:34:18 AM »
Can somebody tell this idiot on Jeff Masters' site that AGW is NOT the primary contributor to Harvey?

This is SLIGHLY AGW enhanced, but in all honestly, only slightly, around 10%, possibly even less. We won't know until some statistical models and deterministic models are run, but this is more about a perfect ENSO Neutral year and a perfect Gulf Loop Eddy and a perfect no shear atmosphere.

My GOD, you cannot blame a BARE MINIMUM category 4 Hurricane on "Global Warming" every time it forms, because that's been happening for the past several hundred years anyway; actually for Billions of years, but that's beside the point.

The rainfall is roughly 10% AGW enhanced.

The Wind's speed, and therefore Angular Momentum and Linear Momentum was just barely HALF the thermodynamic maximum...only around 10% of which is AGW related, you can't seriously be blaming this on AGW...and certainly not as the primary cause.

The part of the Gulf that Harvey passed over during "Explosive Intensification" was 4C above normal, and no more than about 0.5C of that was AGW related. The other 3.5C of it came from natural ENSO variation plus natural Loop Eddy variation. Literally, even Dr. Jeff Masters, Mr. Global Warming Alarmist that he is, said so.

If we took 10% off the flooding, it still broke the previous record. Hell, if we took 20% off the flooding, it still broke the previous record, and quite obviously there is no way AGW has gotten bad enough to explain as much as 20% of this, not yet anyway. I tmight get that bad 100 years from now, but it's not that strong of an amplification yet.

Lying about it and exaggerating, such as making bad computer models that double the effect, such as how Michael Mann did, all of that bad science and fake news only fuels total deniers more.

Let's be serious, about 100 to 200 years from now, the effect gets very bad, I get that, I even can prove that.

However, these people can't seriously be doing this every time a record gets broken.

Basic statistics:

It takes 144 years of data in order to have a 95% confidence that you have actually seen one "One in One hundred years" event. We only have 137 years of modern, reliable data, so we have less than 95% confidence that our definition of a "100 years flood" is even correct for any given location. In a few cases, you can use proxy data, such as dead forest tree ring data, to gauge the statistical likelihood of a flood, but seriously, most of this is "fake news" alarmism, not real science.

Okay, 100 to 200 years, AGW gets out of hand.

Right now, it can't be blamed for everything that happens on the planet.

We have 10,000 weather stations in the U.S. This means in an average year, we are SUPPOSED to see approximately 10 one-thousand years floods "somewhere" in the U.S., and we are SUPPOSED to see approximately 10 one-thousand years droughts "somewhere" in the U.S. on average, every year.

To be honest with you, we're actually having fewer climate disasters lately than we are "supposed" to be having...12 years without a category 3 landfall, but in the 1980's, 1990's, and early 2000's they happened all the time...before AGW was really even measurable...

Please, seriously, they distract from the real science when they try to blame eveyrthing on AGW, even though a lot of this is honest to God normal ENSO variability....for example, what do you blame Amelia, the previous record holder, since it dumped 48 inches long before AGW had even begun to effect SST or Sea Ice?

Labor Day 1935 (185mph) was too early to be an AGW event, obviously, but is the strongest Western Hemisphere Landfall. Thanks to Super-Typhoon Haiyan (195mph in the Phillipines), Labor Day 1935 is now the second strongest global landfall officially. Unofficially, Cyclone Monica (Australia) may be the strongest landfall globally.

Camille has been downgraded from a 190mph landfall to a 160mph landfall, because it's been discovered from physical evidence and computer modeling that there is no way it was a 190mph sustained storm at landfall. Long before AGW was large enough to matter.

Andrew is now the second strongest U.S. landfall on record at 165mph, but that was in 1992, before AGW became large enough to even effect Sea Ice.

It's actually been an abnormally long time since a "theoretical maximum" hurricane hit the U.S. I hate to say that, but it happens to be true.


Since they downgraded Audrey to a Category 3, this means it has been over 160 years since the last time Louisiana experienced a Category 4 landfall, which was the "Last Island Hurricane," which I can assure you was way, way more devastating than Hurricane Harvey.

The previous Category 4 Hurricane before Last Island to hit Louisiana was during the War of 1812, which was documented by the BRITISH fleet commander, because he was horrified by it and actually offered assistance to the U.S. civilians in New Orleans when he saw how bad it was there.

Believe it or not, Category 4 and 5 hurricanes apparently don't hit the U.S. as often today as they did 100 to 200 years or so ago.

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #225 on: August 29, 2017, 02:46:25 AM »
Most deadly U.S. hurricanes, in order:
Galveston: Category 3. over 8000, but believed to be as many as 12000 deaths.
"Forgotten Hurricane", Lake Okachobee, Florida: Category 4. over 4000, but unknown.
New Orleans, War of 1812 Hurricane, Category 4. Over 3000 deaths, possibly 4000.
Last Island Hurricane, near "Last Island" resort, Category 4. Several thousand deaths, unknown.
Katrina, New Orleans, Category 3 (with Category 5 Surge). A bit over 1800 deaths.


If you adjust for inflation, Galveston is probably still the most financially destructive hurricane too.


Let me point this out, almost forgot this detail.

Three of the worst U.S. hurricanes on record were actually "Global Cooling" era hurricanes.

New Orleans war of 1812 hurricane is in the worst 10 years period of the Little Ice Age.
Last Island Hurricane is 1850, and is a Little Ice Age hurricane.
Galveston is in the middle of a Volcanic Winter caused by Krakatoa, which lasted about another 15 years after this. In fact, the NEXT bad Galveston Hurricane was also in a Volcanic Winter year caused by Krakatoa*.

* I know this, because two of the three worst U.S. FREEZE events happened in the 1910's, because the planet still hadn't recovered from Krakatoa. In these two events, New York Harbor froze over again, and the Mississippi froze over all the way down to the mouth. For reference, the SMALL rivers in Louisiana where I live have never had ice floating on them in my lifetime. So I know that was Volcanic Winter induced.

Most of these "most destructive/deadly" hurricanes are way, way before AGW mattered.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 03:09:04 AM by WadeDanielSmith »

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #226 on: August 29, 2017, 03:29:07 AM »
A few years ago, on either the Weather Channel or the Science Channel, I forget which, there was a documentary where scientists were trying to use a new technique to gauge the category intensity level of pre-modern record hurricanes. The way it works is this:

Stronger hurricanes lift more heavy Hydrogen (Deuterium) and Heavy Oxygen (17/18 vs 16) than do normal low pressure systems.

Tree ring data can be used to discover the isotopic ratio of light Oxygen to "Heavy Oxygen". Using the Oxygen ratios is more reliable than the Deuterium ratios because cells have enzymes which remove most Deuterium atoms, because the gravitational mass of the extra neutron interferes with the shape of the Covalent Bonds and Hydrogen Bonds of the Hydrogen atom in amino acid formation and protein folding. Since plants naturally "select out" Deuterium, but don't "select out" heavy Oxygen, this makes the heavy Oxygen a more reliable marker in the cell structure of the plant. So then by comparing the isotopic ratio of Oxygen 18 to Oxygen 16, you can approximate the Category level of a Hurricane...


When I first saw this, it blew my mind. I was like, "That is GENIUS!"


Sooo...why don't we put a mass spectrometer in space, or several of them, and map the Deuterium distribution and the Heavy Oxygen distribution, the same way we do for visible and infrared satellite and morphed microwave imagery and radar? With this tool, we might be able to better identify "known unknown" trends, such as eye wall replacement cycles. This might also provide a better way to measure VIL, as Radar measured VIL can be contaminated from looking through too many layers or too large a distance. This could also be used in combination with the Advanced Dvorak Technique to improve margin of error in surface pressure and surface winds calculations, at least in principle, with enough computing power and a good 5 to 10 years human experience interpreting the data...


The way I would do this tool is this:

Take unenhanced Visible Satellite imagery as the baseline, and have 3 colors for "Heavy" Isotopes, which would overlay over it. At night time you'd use Shortwave Infrared as the baseline.

black/white is "Light Water" clouds.
Green would be Deuterium enriched clouds.
Blue would be Oxygen 17 enriched clouds.
Red would be Oxygen 18 enriched clouds.
Purple: Molecule has two or more heavy isotopes in a single molecule (i.e. 2D2O18).

So it would work like "color enhanced infrared" except it would color the isotopes instead of the temperatures of the clouds.

This idea is not too far-fetched. We are already using Quantum Theory to try to help gauge the intensity of Hurricanes. The Lightning data tools use EM radiation and even Gamma Radiation released by Lightning to try to track the number and intensity of Lightning strikes in thunderstorms in the eye wall. If the lightning strikes are increasing and building higher, then it is theoretically supposed to mean that the storm is growing stronger. The strongest lightning strikes produce Gamma Radiation via Positron Emission and annihilation in microscopic amounts.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 03:51:21 AM by WadeDanielSmith »

pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #227 on: August 29, 2017, 03:38:15 AM »
Widespread 30+ across Harris County

https://mobile.twitter.com/RaleighWx

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #228 on: August 29, 2017, 03:44:51 AM »
Yes, the Radars are probably over-estimating the rainfall slightly, however, I suspect some areas on the South East side of Houston may have gotten more rain than we can record....the fresh water flooding rose so high that any professional or hobbyist gauges in the area may have been compromised anyway.

I know there were some amateurs who had a few inches higher than any official gauges earlier. I don't know how reliable they are though.

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #229 on: August 29, 2017, 04:14:45 AM »
Every Hurricane has a "Curve Ball" moment.

If you watch a few hundred Tropical Cyclones, you learn that.

No matter how good you get at understanding and even forecasting these things, there's always something more to learn.

We all knew this was going to be at least a 3 day stall/near stall scenario before it even came off the Yucatan Peninsula. What we didn't realize is there was literally going to be zero shear through the original landfall, and we also didn't realize this was going to be packing statistically insane precipable water levels non-stop through its entire existence. That is the curve ball. The stall was predictable. The insane radar VIL levels correlating to real-world flooding is the other talking point besides the stall itself. This one I don't quite understand, even with the absurdly hot Gulf.

Dr. Navarro on TWC tried to explain that in this case the Dry Air was paradoxically enhancing today's rainfall, which blew my mind too. Never heard a PhD claim that dry Air was actually enhancing a TC's overall liquidity! She said that it was somehow enhancing outflow, which improved lift. Well, she's a smart lady, so I'll assume she's right, even though it seems a bit weird of an explanation.

The VIL levels need some scientific modeling and further analysis, because that's the second talking point contributing to the amount of flooding we've seen with Harvey. The Gulf being 4f above average for August only explains about 40% of the VIL rating, which means it would still be higher than an EF5 tornado, for three consecutive days, which is still abnormal even for a Tropical Cyclone.


The biggest gaps in our understanding of Hurricane forecasts, both at the professional level and amateur level, are correct rainfall forecasts and correct interpretation of "eye wall replacement cycles".

Last year, Carl Parker nailed one and beat me.
This year, he over-played what LOOKED like a similar scenario to  him.

Good meteorologist, not picking on him.

At issue here, there was a difference, which for whatever reason at the time, he was distracted and didn't notice it enough. So he interprets the scenario as a weakening phase, and assumes the storm will be 120mph at landfall. I point out that the pressure was still in RI mode (near explosive Intensification mode almost,) and that the apparent eye wall replacement cycle didn't seem to matter much. So I'm like, "No, not this time. You beat me last year, but this time I know I'm right. It's going to 130mph, and double eye walls is only worse for landfall, not better: it means you have Hurricane force winds over twice as big of an area..."

THIS is not guess work. This is very, very hard to call, and sometimes I blow this very badly, and sometimes I nail it. It's just very hard to gauge this.

so I'm like, "what other metrics in physics can we measure to help gauge a hurricane's intensity or rainfall potential?"

Well, here are a few, and there aren't many to be sure...

Mass Spectrometry idea. Requires 5 to 10 years of experienced interpretation and further assisted super-computer modeling...

"Brute Force" Sampling: Double the number of buoys and weather stations, more "resolution" on sampling. Theoretically, this would reduce the number of errors in computer model initializations...very slightly. I have examples of how this can improve the initialization by as much as 1mb to 3mb of pressure, maybe even more, in some cases. There are classic examples of meteorologists "correcting" the bad initialization of the computer models output via a "Kentucky Windage" approach, upon realizing it is a bad initialization, by simply adding or subtracting the difference back to the predicted value. In the future, we would hopefully have a slightly more scientific approach to this problem.

Add more space-based polar orbit Radars on 45 degree orbital plane offsets, means more "direct hits" on fly-bys, more "resolution" on steering and sampling. This is most relevant to the 4 and 5 day forecast, which is usually outside of land-based radar range. This can theoretically get "less contaminated" VIL readings too...with 4 of these orbiters, instead of just 1, we'd be 4 times as likely to get one good direct hit per 6 hour modeling period...AND we'd simultaneously get good sampling of the entire Globe every 6 hour modeling period anyway. We'd never be able to take a 7 day Hurricane forecast seriously without more 3d space radars.

There is actually not much scientific benefit to improving the precision of most of the instruments by another decimal. I.E. 1/100th of 1mb of pressure doesn't matter much. 1/100th of a knot wind speed doesn't matter much. 1/100th of a percent humidity doesn't matter much. 1/1000th of a degree F doesn't matter much for air or water temperature. In fact, the "Resolution" approach actually makes a larger improvement in "Precision" than does the "Precision" approach itself.


Not sure what else is scientifically "Measurable" and "Quantifiable" about Hurricanes, but if anybody has any ideas I've overlooked, I'd like to hear them.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 04:45:44 AM by WadeDanielSmith »

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #230 on: August 29, 2017, 04:24:29 AM »
Beaumont was one of the less-mentioned areas which was getting hit very hard by the rains earlier. Right now they are in a slight lull, but they may get back into heavy rainfall action in a few more hours.

I'm not quite sure why nobody has mentioned this area very much on television, even though they actually have some of the highest confirmed rainfall totals.

pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #231 on: August 29, 2017, 04:27:28 AM »
Confirmation of a 36 hour rainfall record from AGW enhanced Harvey.

Per state climatologist: Gage at Clear Crk and I-45 recorded the greatest 3-day rainfall in the US of 36.80 inches

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeffLindner1/status/902346229513900032

pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #232 on: August 29, 2017, 04:40:25 AM »
Houston has been under moderate rain much of the day.  There is currently a very intense band SE of the city that looks to be 3+ inches per hour.  With the larger reservoirs and bayous surpassing critical levels, this could create additional hazards overnight if the band manages to lift NW.

miki

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #233 on: August 29, 2017, 05:02:28 AM »
WDS, I think a good start could be Paul Beckwith. A climatologist with a good way of explaining things clear. A link to his tutorial on Harvey.

https://paulbeckwith.net/2017/08/27/epic-tutorial-on-horrific-hurricane-harvey/

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #234 on: August 29, 2017, 05:05:57 AM »
I believe the post-season analysis with super-computer assistance, will be able to pick out how much of it is AGW enhancement. Expect some sort of "Best fit" value, with a margin of error value from NHC or else from a University professor most likely. It might ultimately take a few years before the best research on this is complete.


I'm really concerned for the Thermodynamic Potential situation in the Atlantic, as we call these things "September Storms" for a reason. Still, October in a rigged Neutral ENSO year like this is scary too.

The European model claims there's going to be at least a Category 2 storm perhaps passing by the north side of the Antilles later this week. Hard to say what the second half of the track would be this early. Hopefully it's a fish storm, but nobody take your eyes off it for very long. This model has become by far the most reliable. Not sure how often they update this thing, but right now it's kicking the GFS model's tail lately.

Seeing as how Harvey went from TD to Category 4 after hitting a T8 Thermodynamic Potential Predictor zone...I'd hate to see an already developed storm pass into that T8 predictor off the coast of Florida and Georgia, for example....that would be Andrew 2.0 for sure, and we don't need that. Hopefully, mercifully no.

There are T8 (or T9 off the scale!) Predictors in the following locations.

Florida Bend area, Gulf of Mexico: Slightly AGW enhanced. Perfect natural cycle enhancement.
Bay of Campeche, Gulf of Mexico: Slightly AGW enhanced. Perfect natural cycle enhancement.
Main Development Region: Slightly AGW enhanced. Near-Perfect natural cycle enhancement.
Florida/Georgia east coast: Slightly AGW enhancement. Present day sheared. Still T8 Predictor.

EE Pacific: Slightly above normal enhancement, not as far out of normal as the Gulf of Mexico though.

Caribbean: Slight AGW enhancement. Unfavorable natural conditions FOR THE MOMENT ONLY. October will be INSANE down hear, most likely.

pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #235 on: August 29, 2017, 05:19:23 AM »
The paragraphs in the snip below feel like a template for what we will all too frequently see in the not too distant future.  In fact the future is upon us.  Beyond comprehension and beyond our collective ability to control or mitigate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/us/houston-flooding-harvey.html

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #236 on: August 29, 2017, 05:48:59 AM »
I knew this was going to approach Mitch and Wilma (Cancun) level rainfalls when I first saw it emerge into the BoC. The first three days of the track scenario were pretty obvious, glance at the satellite and read it blind. The next two not as obvious.

So I looked at the GFS model and I was like, "yeah, that's about right, this is going to be bad...OMG, that stall is too long, OMG, OMG that's way too long."

Yet, to actually see the water values unfold on our modern radars, which we didn't actually get to see for Wilma at Cancun nor Mitch at Honduras, this was very much ridiculous rain levels.

Normally, the Jet stream kicks something out after at most 2 or 3 days in U.S. even in stall/near-stall scenarios. This one just got completely out of hand.


Oh yes, I agree with a point in that tutorial video about the steering.
The thermal blanketing effect of Global Warming can produce poor north/south steering, allowing persistent westward tracks and stalls from the MDR, Caribbean, and Gulf, instead of recurve tracks.

There is another problem:
When AGW gets bad enough, which it is already approaching this threshold, a second "MDR" will emerge in the Atlantic: Pop-up hurricanes can now form off the Florida-Georgia-Carolina coast, like this not so developed low over there right now. Eventually, when AGW gets bad enough, these will start getting strong enough to survive the track across the North Atlantic, over the Bermuda High, and will begin making landfalls in Western Europe. We had a close call in 2005, and another one a few years ago, but it's a matter of time now.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 05:55:38 AM by WadeDanielSmith »

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #237 on: August 29, 2017, 06:06:45 AM »
I give up.

That was incredible.

The NAM computer model just spit out a result so bad it's insane. This model says parts of Houston are still going to get ANOTHER 20 to 30 inches of rain over the next 2 days or so....even with the storm broken up like this.

The GFS is on board with it, and I guess the European won't be too much different.

So sad. Worst thing since Mitch in the Atlantic Basin.

Just obscene, and they are already been releasing water from the reservoirs to try to avoid a dam failure. I don't know what to say. This is likely about to go from awful to worse. We might not have seen the whole death toll from this just yet either, probably about to rise some more.

wili

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #238 on: August 29, 2017, 06:10:23 AM »
Barker and Addicks seem to already be releasing water down their spillways. Let's hope these old, badly maintained dams hold up under this extreme situation. The heart of Houston sits below them.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #239 on: August 29, 2017, 06:23:08 AM »
Oh yeah, AGW effects on the Atlantic Coast are harder to understand, because steering features evolve more rapidly up there than in the Gulf or Caribbean regions.

There is a region of the Atlantic near New England and Newfoundland which gets a ridiculous hot spot forming in recent years, compared to the 30 year average, and this has gotten so far out of normal on some years that it can support storms a full category or two higher than the 30 years normal would have supported, at least assuming the environment allows it. This is effected Super Storm Sandy, and it also effected the Wilma Nor' Easter formation. Wow, Wilma seems to have done some of everything...perhaps the trend in steering somehow favors October Caribbean storms moving into or near New England? Let's not forget, October Category 5 Matthew tried this last year, but didn't quite get that sort of "turning in" steering at the end of the track as did Wilma and Sandy....else we'd have had another New York "Super Storm".

pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #240 on: August 29, 2017, 06:24:32 AM »
The 0z GFS is simply a solution that would amplify the Houston catastrophe beyond measure.  It's getting hard to find the proper words at this point.  The system meanders erratically just offshore and comes up Gavelston Bay Tuesday evening with the precip maxima again across Harris County and Houston metro, 20-30 inches on top of current totals.  The onshore fetch would add to the problems.

This really feels like a knock out blow if it comes to pass.  The Euro has been showing a farther east solution which would alleviate some pressure on Houston, the next run will come out in a few hours.

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #241 on: August 29, 2017, 06:41:33 AM »
This is in a bad case. From what I understand, the Army Corps is basically soft-speaking around the fact that the dams are probably going to experience partial failure by mid-morning tomorrow, especially if this rain keeps up.

WadeDanielSmith

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #242 on: August 29, 2017, 06:44:41 AM »
At least the storm can't build a CDO again, I hope, but a massive amount of very tall convection just exploded over Houston in the past few hours. -60C cloud tops are returning to the region again.

pileus

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #243 on: August 29, 2017, 07:05:37 AM »
Sickening to watch in real time.  The very intense rates are rotating in to Houston and may render flood control measures in the primary reservoirs and bayous irrelevant.

wili

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #244 on: August 29, 2017, 07:54:49 AM »
o
m
g

https://twitter.com/RyanMaue/status/902400742518120448

"If GEFS ensembles are to be believed, then we need to watch the Western Gulf for another tropical system next week. Not helpful."

https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/gfs-ens/2017082900/gfs-ememb_lowlocs_us_36.png

...

And Addicks rising fast: https://www.harriscountyfws.org/GageDetail/Index/2110?view=full
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:05:39 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

BenB

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #245 on: August 29, 2017, 11:44:39 AM »
Another aspect of the relationship between AGW and Harvey is background sea level rise, which in Texas is very significant (over 2 feet at Galveston over the past century, although admittedly only partly due to AGW):

https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends_station.shtml?stnid=8771450

This affects storm surges and the speed at which flood water and swollen rivers drain into the sea, worsening the impacts of the storm.

Eli81

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #246 on: August 29, 2017, 12:48:26 PM »
Nice article by Eric Holthaus.

Quote
We knew this would happen, decades ago. We knew this would happen, and we didn’t care. Now is the time to say it as loudly as possible: Harvey is what climate change looks like. More specifically, Harvey is what climate change looks like in a world that has decided, over and over, that it doesn’t want to take climate change seriously.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/28/climate-change-hurricane-harvey-215547

Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #247 on: August 29, 2017, 01:27:44 PM »
Current level of Addicks Reservoir is 107.46 ft, overtopping begins at 108 ft. Will likely start in a few hours.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902461883071868928

Level of Barker Reservoir was 100.05 ft at 10pm, overtopping begins at 104 ft. Will likely start later today.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902462478616936448

These structures were built in the 1930s to prevent downtown Houston from catastrophic flooding, and designed to withstand a 1000-year flood
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902462794661937156

At this point, overtopping of Addicks&Barker Reservoirs seems inevitable. No one really knows what'll happen b/c it's never happened before.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902465151747596288

Here's my best guess:
Water from the reservoirs will start to spill around upper ends of the dams later today, flowing into Buffalo Bayou.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902466626347458560
(More of the thread continues in image below.)


What Happened to the Two Reservoirs That Were Supposed to Protect Downtown Houston?
http://amp.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2017/08/28/what_happened_to_the_reservoirs_that_were_supposed_to_protect_downtown_houston.html 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 01:33:15 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

crandles

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #248 on: August 29, 2017, 01:37:17 PM »
Believe it or not, Category 4 and 5 hurricanes apparently don't hit the U.S. as often today as they did 100 to 200 years or so ago.

But is this a potential effect of climate change? More blocking and more stalling so hurricanes don't travel as far makes crossing a coast less likely. So some benefit to this climate change reducing number of landfalls but also an increased chance of most severe effects of stalling having just crossed a coast?

Similarly, similar numbers of hurricanes but an increase in proportion of the most powerful hurricanes could also be competing effects: Increase in sea surface temperatures encourages tropical storm formation and strengthening but increased shear reducing chances of tropical storms forming.

With such competing effects potentially going on, how do you arrive at a fair assessment of the role climate change has played?

Having said this, generally I agree with you that it is a bad idea to overstate the case when there is inadequate data to fully support such a position.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Hurricane season 2017
« Reply #249 on: August 29, 2017, 01:42:34 PM »
In the best-case scenario, it will take 1-3 *months* to release all the water in the reservoirs, which are normally dry & used as parkland.
https://twitter.com/EricHolthaus/status/902469733789818880

The upstream neighborhoods will remain flooded that entire time.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902469819768774656

[The article below], from @HoustonPress in 2012, is a decent deep-dive into risks of Addicks and Barker and efforts to fix them.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/902480094207262720

If the Addicks and Barker Dams Fail
http://www.houstonpress.com/news/if-the-addicks-and-barker-dams-fail-6594886
 

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.