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Neven

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #700 on: December 23, 2014, 12:07:15 AM »
It's the same here in Austria: when the grid goes down, the inverter shuts off. Like sidd says, because of worker safety. It happened a couple of weeks ago.

I read about these things last year when I was looking at the current situation with regards to batteries, but I've forgotten all about it. You need a second inverter to organise everything. I believe SMA has an interesting system for that.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #701 on: December 23, 2014, 12:12:36 AM »
I just gave a link to grid-tie inverters which allow battery storage behind the meter.

When the grid goes down your house/business automatically operates in "off the grid" fashion.  No second inverter needed.  One inverter does it all.

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #702 on: December 23, 2014, 12:40:14 AM »
Sorry, I should have not been so brief.

1)lightning (overvoltage issue):

a) it is hard to prove to the utility or the NEC that your equipment will fail safe  given a megavolt/100Kamp pulse on any or all utility conductors. Grid tie inverters today pass that test.

b)Grid tie inverter + battery + transfer switch + islanded (non grid tie operation) operation does not yet pass that test.

2)reclosing issue: the sentence " ... short on utility line causes breaker to trip deenergizing the line .."
should have read " ... short on utility line causes utility breaker to trip deenergizing the line ... "
It's the utility side breaker (perhaps at the substation) cycling, reclosing as it tries to clear the short (vaporize putative squirrel.)

Let us say you have a system in operation as follows: solar(wind) + battery + clever inverter + clever transfer switch

When utility power goes out, this combo switches to islanded operation. Transfer switch isolates from utility, inverter switches to non grid tie (freewheel) operation. Now utility power comes back on. Transfer switch reconnects to utility, inverter switches to grid tie operation. And utility goes off again. And on. And off. A few times. So your combo must follow. Utility on = Grid tie. Utility off = islanded. The combo is not proven to handle this cleanly in the presence of large voltage swings and common mode currents.

When utility turns off these things must provably happen in sequence:

1)Grid tie inverter must turn off
2)Transfer switch must disconnect from utility and switch to islanded operation.
3)Inverter come back on in freewheeling mode


When utility comes back on these things provably must happen in sequence:

1) Freewheeling inverter must turn off
2)transfer switch must reconnect to utility
3)Inverter must come back on in grid tie mode

This must be guaranteed in the presence of large voltage swing and common mode current. And u see because of the delays involved in closing and opening transfer switch and locking to grid for grid tie operation, the utility power might go on and off several times while your system is still reacting to out of date information. Not so easy. This calls for a provable state machine, which has been done in ladder (PLC) logic for industrial automation, which i hope Radian is using.


sidd

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #703 on: December 23, 2014, 01:40:57 AM »
Quote
Now utility power comes back on. Transfer switch reconnects to utility, inverter switches to grid tie operation. And utility goes off again. And on. And off. A few times. So your combo must follow. Utility on = Grid tie. Utility off = islanded. The combo is not proven to handle this cleanly in the presence of large voltage swings and common mode currents.

sidd - Outback is a major inverter company.  It was started several years ago when a core group of engineers left Trace due to Trace (now Xantrex) moving manufacturing to China (IIRC) .

Outback is very unlikely to put a product on the market that can't deal with grid weirdness. 

Plus, what is the difference between amps of 240 vac coming from solar panels and amps of 240 vac coming from batteries?  It's all power behind the meter, behind the inverter.

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #704 on: December 23, 2014, 04:59:59 AM »
Don't get me wrong, i like Outback, and I am sure they have smart people trying to do everything right. Just saying that approval process will take a while, for reasons I can understand.

One important difference between utility supply and you is phase. A grid tie inverter will lock to utility phase. But when utility goes out, you must disconnect from utility, the new equipment is supposed to disconnect from utility and freewheel.  Utility comes back on with arbitrary phase angle with respect to your local generation, so you must turn off inverter, reconnect to utility and phase lock again. You must do everything reliably and safely to the satisfaction of the utility in the face of large voltage swings and common mode currents.

The lightning thing is a big issue too ...

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #705 on: December 23, 2014, 06:33:04 AM »
There's a big difference on the DC side, arcing.




Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #706 on: December 23, 2014, 06:12:17 PM »
Re your squirrel scenario:  my generator waits for 10 seconds of restored utility power -- in order to assure the power is really restored -- before it switches back to the grid.  I suppose that period could be lengthened....

Edit: "Will transfer back to the utility once utility returns (above 75% of nominal) for 15 seconds."
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 06:32:59 PM by Sigmetnow »
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sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #707 on: December 23, 2014, 07:48:34 PM »
Are you sure of that 75% ? Either in voltage or frequency, that is seriously out of spec, and motors especially on compressors will not like running at that low of a voltage at all. The number should be more like 95%

sidd

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #708 on: December 23, 2014, 08:01:17 PM »
If I'm reading this spec sheet correctly it's >80% for 15 seconds.

http://gens.lccdn.com/GeneracCorporate/media/Library/content/all-products/transfer-switches/residential-transfer-switches/0198240SBY-Complete_Smart-Switch.pdf

"Either in voltage or frequency, that is seriously out of spec, and motors especially on compressors will not like running at that low of a voltage at all."

If the grid is running that low then everything on the grid is suffering.   I think if I was running grid-tied with storage I'd want the power on my side to be full voltage and constant frequency.  That could be accomplished by using the grid as "battery charger input" and letting ones own inverter keep the clean power flowing.


Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #709 on: December 24, 2014, 09:06:46 PM »
New paper:  residential solar + electric vehicle would make suburbs' carbon footprint closer to that seen in the city.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/12/24/how-solar-power-and-electric-cars-could-make-suburban-living-awesome-again/
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wili

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #710 on: December 24, 2014, 09:09:12 PM »
A perspective from the Energy Policy Forum:

Renewables Highly Competitive Though Not Yet At Scale

http://energypolicyforum.org/2014/12/22/renewables-highly-competitive-though-not-yet-at-scale/

Quote
It is possible that total clean energy capacity installed in 2014 will be greater in non-OECD countries than developed nations for the first time. Oil and gas companies have long touted an expected upward growth trajectory in energy demand and assumed that they would enjoy the rewards almost exclusively.

Interestingly, demand in these countries is leaning towards renewables now rather than conventional forms of energy.

That's a development I hadn't heard of before. Are others aware of evidence for this shift? What does it presage?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #711 on: December 24, 2014, 09:13:03 PM »
Self-driving "commuter pods" could greatly increase the awesomeness of suburban living.   Hop in at your front door.  Work or recreate during your commute.  Get dropped off at the front door where you work.  Car picks you up at the end of your day.

Your "eight hours" could start when you close the pod door in the morning, finish when you arrive at home, and cut your 'in office'  time by an hour or two.

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/12/22/1st-real-google-self-driving-car-arrives/

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #712 on: December 24, 2014, 09:21:09 PM »
A perspective from the Energy Policy Forum:

Renewables Highly Competitive Though Not Yet At Scale

http://energypolicyforum.org/2014/12/22/renewables-highly-competitive-though-not-yet-at-scale/

Quote
It is possible that total clean energy capacity installed in 2014 will be greater in non-OECD countries than developed nations for the first time. Oil and gas companies have long touted an expected upward growth trajectory in energy demand and assumed that they would enjoy the rewards almost exclusively.

Interestingly, demand in these countries is leaning towards renewables now rather than conventional forms of energy.

That's a development I hadn't heard of before. Are others aware of evidence for this shift? What does it presage?

It means, I think, that the word has spread and most countries now recognize that renewables are cheaper than new fossil fuel and nuclear plants.  New coal and new nuclear produce expensive electricity. 

For those interested in the sorts of projects happening outside of the "usual countries" this site is a fun read.  They don't do a lot of in depth reporting but mostly post short "this is getting installed here" stuff along with some great images. 

http://www.evwind.es/


sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #713 on: December 26, 2014, 12:57:06 AM »
Re: grid tie + solar + battery

Upon rereading the thread I realize I have only addressed technical issues, with a sympathetic eye to utility engineers. There are financial and even survival considerations for the utilities which might contribute to delays in approval and certification.

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #714 on: December 26, 2014, 01:04:49 AM »
Re: grid tie + solar + battery

Upon rereading the thread I realize I have only addressed technical issues, with a sympathetic eye to utility engineers. There are financial and even survival considerations for the utilities which might contribute to delays in approval and certification.

sidd

Unless one lives in a utility district with very high electricity prices and one that shows no sign of competing with end-user storage (part of Australia, for example) it's unlikely end-user storage will be a large factor.  Utilities can compete with cheaper wind and hydro as well as use their ability to purchase storage at better prices.

crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #715 on: December 26, 2014, 03:43:50 AM »
Unless one lives in a utility district with very high electricity prices and one that shows no sign of competing with end-user storage (part of Australia, for example) it's unlikely end-user storage will be a large factor.  Utilities can compete with cheaper wind and hydro as well as use their ability to purchase storage at better prices.

Of course utilities can buy cheaper wind hydro and storage than end users no disagreement there. However further down the renewables road, those costs are only a tiny part of utility costs. If a significant bit of the supply is wind which is highly likely given current costs then there will be excess supply causing wholesale market price of electric to becomes tiny marginal costs. Capital costs are effectively paid for (possibly overpaid for if subsidy level is higher than needed) by guaranteed prices of the subsidy system is going to be a much larger share of utility cost base.

(In short, Utility is allowed to and needs to charge for difference between renewables guaranteed selling prices and the tiny market prices, and this becomes large majority of utility's cost in future.)

In addition to subsidy for renewables generation there are also capacity payments eg
Quote
More than 49GW of capacity was secured for delivery in 2018-19 at a price of £19.40 per KW.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30545091

Seems another large payment the utilities have to pay and pass on to us but at least the utilities can buy the energy cheap - largely at marginal costs which are tiny. £19.40 per KW seems like a lot to me though I wouldn't want to start a business in a country where electric might not be available when it was needed so I suppose it is necessary and even at bargain at £11 a year per average household.

Anyway those capacity payments to keep some ff plants available will presumably dwindle as we increase renewables capacity and increase storage capacity?

If renewable subsidy costs dominate what utilities are allowed and need to charge (or at least we build up to such a situation over roughly the next 10 to 20 years) and then suppose storage becomes cheap enough to allow off grid renewables and storage to beat paying such costs. Surely the utility is then in trouble and a trickle of customers leaving could ratchett up the problem making it inevitable the trickle turns to a flood of people going off grid. Those subsidy system guaranteed prices might begin to look rather less guaranteed before we reach that point.

I don't suppose this matters much. For a while the renewables get built and are likely to continue to be used to generate power. After a while however, do those renewable price guarantees starting to look rather less guaranteed cause a slowing in the rate of installation of renewables?  I would think probably not provided renewables are cheap enough to compete. So I don't suppose it matters much. Still utility failures seem possible given the way subsidy systems are heaping large liabilities on them (they also get large rights to charge customers supposedly worth as much but if customers considers this too expensive then the asset may not be worth as much as the liability).

Whether such utility failures are bound to happen or just a possibility seems to depend quite a lot on how much of the costs of renewables installed in future are fixed compared to their marginal costs, and the potential for small scale storage to become cheaper than those past fixed costs. That depends quite a bit on general inflation vs deflation with volume, experience and innovation cutting cost of storage. So while I wouldn't say it is bound to happen, current cost structures of current cheapest renewables do seem to make it look quite a possibility. Or maybe you view things differently?

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #716 on: December 26, 2014, 05:20:34 AM »
One doesn't just purchase some panels and batteries and go offline.  (Unless they live somewhere like the Antelope Valley that has 360 days of sunshine a year.)

Cut yourself off from the grid and you'll have capacity costs.  You're going to have a generator or fuel cell and purchase fuel for it.  You're going to have to purchase more hours of fueled generation than will the grid which can first turn to hydro and wind. 
--

Subsidies are a  temporary player.  The US is nearing the end of subsidies for wind and solar.  The two of them, combined, are only about 5% of grid supply.  And those subsidies disappear after ten years from commencement.  I'm guessing that there will be no subsidy money paid out in the US by the time wind and solar hit the 20% mark. 

(Offshore wind excepted.  New technology.)

If anything is done to push fossil fuels off the grid it will likely take place in form of a carbon price or cap and trade, not more subsidies for renewables.
--

As someone who has been off the grid for about 25 years I really don't think many people will bother.  The average electricity bill in the US is $100/month.  The people who view that as a significant amount of money are not the people who have the capital or borrowing ability to set up an off grid system.  Many of them won't own a roof to put a system on.

Being off grid can be a bit of a PITA.  When I go away for any length of time (even overnight in the winter) I need to empty the refer.  Not just deal with the stuff like milk, but shut the whole thing down and turn off everything electric.  (An automatic generator system and large fuel tank would let me slip out, but that's more expense.)

There's a lot of romance to being off the grid.  Until you live the lifestyle for a while. 

While one can fantasize about sticking it to the (utility CEO) man what happens is that you put yourself at the mercy of the fossil fuel and battery man.

I think utilities are going to go through a rough patch as they get rid of coal and add renewables and storage.  Natural gas will likely play a larger role for a while until storage prices start falling and eating into's NG's market share. 

I suspect most utilities will increase (or establish) a "connection fee" set high enough to earn some money off people with panels but not high enough to get many of them to disconnect.  A capacity fee.  Not cheap but not as expensive as a generator/fuel cell.

SATire

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #717 on: December 26, 2014, 01:45:29 PM »
Crandles and Bob - life is different here than at your place.

Living without the grid is not due to economics but is life-style here. It is just cool and of course such life-style is for the reasonable rich people. Or for the average rich people rating CO2-neutrality over a nice new car. Those people are still quite rare (<10%, like bio-farmers, Steiner-followers, CO2-motivated vegetarians and such avant-garde) but surely the future is theirs. Green BAU people as some call them. Or maybe some Amish BAU people - I am not so familiar with the different BAU-types since there is one BAU-type for everybody and not all of them are bad...

But also economics is different here. Utility does not own the grid any more - regulations prohibit that. Renewables can not compete here and will not in the near future (as explained above) - but that doesn't matter as long as it will be installed. The people want the transition and politics is changing the rules to make that happen. So we do not need to dream about some market magic to make that happen, we can just do it either way.

Trying to look into the future I assume, that people will generate an increasing portion of the electricity and they will share it via the grid - like they share things in the internet now. So we may continue to pay some fee for the grid as today, but the electricity bill will decrease in future, since the maximum of subsidies cost happens to be about today. And even with our large subsidies paid via the electricity bill our average bill is smaller than yours - efficiency is already better here and still improving. To resume: We can do it. We do not need any help from market, scaling, technology or something else - but we may appreciate any such help nevertheless. Renewables tipped, because the people want it that way - more is not needed.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #718 on: December 26, 2014, 04:52:53 PM »
Quote
I write about bad news pretty much all the time, so for the holiday season, let’s check out a little piece of good news.

Of all the criticisms lobbed at renewable energy, two points are most common:

 1- Wind and solar are intermittent — the wind doesn’t always blow, the sun doesn’t always shine — which means they are not “dispatchable,” i.e., a grid manager cannot reliably and predictably deploy them to meet demand.

 2- Renewables are more expensive than fossil fuels.

As it happens, the New England ISO (Independent System Operator) is busy upending that conventional wisdom.

ISO-NE, as the nerds call it, is the nonprofit organization that administers the New England grid and its wholesale power market. It is responsible for making sure that supply (generation) matches demand (load) at all times; it tells all the 82 large generators in its territory when to put electricity on the grid and when not to. Every hour, generators “bid in” to the wholesale market and the ISO draws from the cheapest power first.

Two exciting bits of news out of ISO-NE, both brought to us by Jerry Elmer of the Conservation Law Foundation.

First, the ISO is busy at work making renewables dispatchable. Of course it can’t make the wind blow or the sun shine. But to an ISO, “dispatchable” has a specific technical and legal meaning. It needs the generator to be in constant electronic communication with the ISO control room. (Check.) It needs reliable five-minute-ahead forecasts for wind strength and sun intensity. (Check.) And it needs algorithms that will enable it to dispatch renewables when circumstances line up. (In the works, due some time next year for wind and hydro, the year after for solar.)

There’s lots of technical detail about what it means for renewables to be “within dispatch,” but I won’t burden you. The main takeaway is that ISO-NE is soon going to treat wind, hydro, and solar as dispatchable resources, which will make them much more competitive in New England wholesale power markets.



Second, as of earlier this month, ISO-NE is for the first time permitting what’s called “negative price offers.” This one requires a bit of explanation.

Renewable generators often bid their power in to wholesale markets at $0. (They act, in the lingo, as “price takers.”) After all, they have no fuel cost. If they’re generating power and the grid doesn’t take it, it just goes to waste. So they’ll accept any price for it.

That doesn’t mean they get $0 for it. The wholesale spot price is set by the bid from the most expensive source necessary to meet demand. That’s why wholesale power is more expensive during times of heavy demand — the price is being set by expensive “peaker plants” that are only rarely fired up. Theoretically, if all demand were being met by renewable generators that had bid in at $0, then the price would be $0 (which actually happens occasionally during periods of low demand). But in normal circumstances, all the $0 price bid does is guarantee that renewable energy will be used first.

Now. That’s all well and good. Here’s the twist: Renewable energy generators also get Renewable Energy Credits (RECs) for the power they generate, which they can then sell for profit. But they only get RECs for power they feed into the grid. Sometimes the amount they would get in RECs makes it worth it for them to pay the grid to take their power — in other words, to bid into wholesale markets at a negative price, just to ensure that they’re allowed to generate as much power as they can.

Until recently, ISO-NE didn’t accept negative price offers, so renewables couldn’t take advantage of this competitive strength. On Dec. 3, however, that policy changed. Elmer explains what happened next:

On Thursday, December 11, the wholesale price of electricity in New England dropped to minus $151.73 during one hour of the ISO’s “Operating Day.” Today (December 19) we had a clearing price of zero for an hour this morning, and then the clearing price dropped to minus $47.67. Negative wholesale electricity prices in New England are not merely a theoretical possibility; they have been happening this month.

As Elmer acknowledged when I chatted with him, this period of negative pricing was probably something of an anomaly, for reasons too boring to get into. It will likely be a while before renewables reach a scale where negative prices are a regular feature.

Nonetheless, it will happen more and more frequently. As renewable generation grows, negative price offers allow it to undercut fossil prices and displace fossil generation. In New England, renewable energy is no longer more expensive.



Remember: For years, Very Serious People have been telling us about things renewable energy can’t do. Meanwhile, renewable energy keeps doing them.

Within the next year or two, New Englanders are going to enjoy cheap, dispatchable renewable energy, something VSPs said was impossible. It must be a Christmas miracle.
http://grist.org/climate-energy/a-bit-of-good-green-energy-news-for-your-holidays-courtesy-of-new-england/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #719 on: December 26, 2014, 09:12:43 PM »
Satire - where do you live?

" Utility does not own the grid any more"

In the US we call the company that owns the grid the utility company.  They may or may not own generation facilities.

"Renewables can not compete here and will not in the near future " ?  Makes no sense.

"Trying to look into the future I assume, that people will generate an increasing portion of the electricity and they will share it via the grid"

Then people will pay to hook to the grid.  If you're hooked to the grid then it is likely that whomever owns the grid will be able to sell you storage/fill-in electricity cheaper than you can purchase your own.



Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #720 on: December 26, 2014, 09:18:28 PM »
Quote
Renewables are more expensive than fossil fuels.

This is a tired old myth that needs to be taken out and shot.  It's based on comparing the cost of paid off fossil  fuel plant electricity to the cost of newly built wind and solar farms.

New:new - renewables are cheaper.

Paid off:paid off - renewables are cheaper.


SATire

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #721 on: December 27, 2014, 01:38:25 AM »
Bob, they did some regulation here some years ago: We have 4 big utility companies with the big power plants (RWE, E.ON, Vattenfall and EnBW). Those companies once also used to own the grid, but that part was separated to 4 new network operators (Amprion, 50 Hertz, Tennet and TransnetBW) to open the network to the millions of new electricity producers driving the renewables installation (roof-top, farmers, communities and other companies). But the electricity bill comes from the local distributors or the company you have the contract with - very similar to the telecom market you may choose from whom you buy which kind of electricity (e.g. renewables only or such). So people have the choice of their hook. And of course most people prefer to be on the grid to sell & buy their electricity - and maybe in future just share it...

The fact that renewables are not competitive in a market like ours today and most probably will not be in future I did try to explain you above in a lot of posts. You may ignore that point - it does not matter much anyway since the success of renewables will not depend on that competition. That success depends on the peoples will - that was my main point, in case you missed that. Please reconsider the idea, that the market could solve our problem by itself - any market never solved a problem. Instead a market may be a tool or a problem by itself. And if such market is not properly regulated the best it can do is producing one bubble after the other... So dream the renewables bubble but here we will work to avoid such kind of performances.

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #722 on: December 27, 2014, 02:02:10 AM »
Re: Financial threats to electric utilities from distributed models
This came out last year, and has been referenced on this forum already i think. Still cogent.

http://www.eei.org/ourissues/finance/Documents/disruptivechallenges.pdf

Distributed generation and demand side management is killing them. The report never mention merit order effects. That, coupled with negative pricing as discussed in an earlier post, kills faster. This is showing in costs of financing for utilities, and you can get a taste of the infighting at the calhounpowerline blog.

Financing costs are showing up on fossil carbon production also. Unburnable reserves are real, and is (one, in a list of other reasons, like embarrassing the current USA/Saud enemies like Veneuzela,Russia,Iran ...) why Saudi is dropping prices. They need to sell everything they got right now, before carbon pricing kicks in. They intend to be the last oil producer standing, total war in pursuit of market share as the market shrinks. If they succeeded it would be ironic, they will end up as last and monopoly producers of buggy whips. But I do not think they will succeed because, among other things, too many people hate them.

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #723 on: December 27, 2014, 02:17:12 AM »
Quote
Please reconsider the idea, that the market could solve our problem by itself - any market never solved a problem

Renewables are making fossil fuels unprofitable in Germany.

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #724 on: December 27, 2014, 02:43:57 AM »
CleanTechnica now includes non-utility-scale solar in their US electricity source numbers.
Quote
“With only one month left in 2014, it has become a horse race between natural gas and renewable energy as to which will dominate new electrical generation for the year. Regardless of the winner, it is apparent that coal, oil, and nuclear will be left behind in the dust.”
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/12/23/wind-solar-account-70-new-us-generating-capacity-november/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #725 on: December 27, 2014, 02:44:45 AM »


I don't know how up to date this is but it should give some idea of how lower pricing takes some countries out of play.

Seems like there are only two routes:  Prices stay low and low cost producers fill the now-lower world demand or an agreement is made between all/most to cut output in order to artificially restrict supply and support high prices.

The EIA says that world consumption in 2014 will be 91.4 mbpd which suggests the graph needs updating.  I'm guessing the US Bakken oil isn't included.

http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/report/global_oil.cfm

Saudis produce for $20 but rely on higher prices to balance their budget.

SATire

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #726 on: December 27, 2014, 12:06:48 PM »
Quote
Please reconsider the idea, that the market could solve our problem by itself - any market never solved a problem

Renewables are making fossil fuels unprofitable in Germany.
Installation of new renewables is achieved by subsidies - thus peoples intention dominates the market successfully.

crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #727 on: December 27, 2014, 01:17:29 PM »
So we may continue to pay some fee for the grid as today, but the electricity bill will decrease in future, since the maximum of subsidies cost happens to be about today. And even with our large subsidies paid via the electricity bill our average bill is smaller than yours - efficiency is already better here and still improving. To resume: We can do it. We do not need any help from market, scaling, technology or something else - but we may appreciate any such help nevertheless. Renewables tipped, because the people want it that way - more is not needed.

Do you have some data or reference for that 'the maximum of subsidies cost happens to be about today'? What country(s) does that apply to?

In UK, subsidies last for 20 or 25 years and grow with inflation. We started less than 20 years ago and I assume even Germany started less than 20 years ago. Meanwhile the quantity of renewables installed keeps going up. So UK subsidies will not peak for at least 15 years even under the most optimistic assumptions.

Maybe you also get all the subsidy over a short period like 10 years?

Maybe UK long periods are good for starting low and ramping up in effect? Or maybe they are a bad idea to be so long as you don't feel the full ramped up cost for a long time, also making considering whether it is an acceptable and appropriate level of costs difficult?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #728 on: December 27, 2014, 02:35:40 PM »
Here's a thought.  (Brace yourself. ::))

As renewables with "zero cost electricity" increase, we need a completely new pricing model for providing power.  Consider if:  everyone pays an electricity "tax", based on your tier of use (minimal, average residential, moderate business, heavy industrial, etc.), and your power is supplied at no charge -- sort of like universal health care.  Utilities are paid from the taxes according to the power they provide: renewable sources are worth more, and the remaining carbon emitters actually have to "pay to play."

I suppose even folks off the grid might need to pay (a minimal tax) until a new paradigm (micro-grids, self-powered buildings) emerges.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

SATire

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #729 on: December 27, 2014, 03:12:39 PM »
So we may continue to pay some fee for the grid as today, but the electricity bill will decrease in future, since the maximum of subsidies cost happens to be about today. And even with our large subsidies paid via the electricity bill our average bill is smaller than yours - efficiency is already better here and still improving. To resume: We can do it. We do not need any help from market, scaling, technology or something else - but we may appreciate any such help nevertheless. Renewables tipped, because the people want it that way - more is not needed.

Do you have some data or reference for that 'the maximum of subsidies cost happens to be about today'? What country(s) does that apply to?
CRandles, I am talking about Germany, since that is the place where I life. Here I want to give some evidence, that "maximum subsidies happen about today":
1. EEG increased every year since introduction in 2000 - but next year  it will be lower than this year (6.17 ct/kWh for non-privileged customers): http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/152973/umfrage/eeg-umlage-entwicklung-der-strompreise-in-deutschland-seit-2000/

2. Some prognosis here: http://bee-ev.de/Publikationen/20141015_BEE_Hintergrund_EEG-Umlage-2015.pdf (page 3)

3. Politics is telling us, that the EEG subsidies shall not rise further. 6 ct/kWh seems to be a value at which more and more people feel that it is expensive. And as I described above the peoples intention is driving the transition. A too fast and too expensive transition could put the whole project at risk.

EEG started in year 2000 with >50 ct/kWh paid for PV - for 15-20 years. So some first and most expensive systems will drop off in the next years. Furthermore, new installations are less expensive and growth of installations is not necessary any more - we are already in the linear range capacity wise (and that results in decreasing investments every year, since costs go down). So the biggest work concerning installations and scaling is clearly done. But you know the other critical tasks I did talk about previously... There is always something left to do until we are about 100% sustainable in perhaps 2050.

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #730 on: December 27, 2014, 08:29:29 PM »
Subsidies are likely to peak in the US in 2016.  That's the year that solar subsidies drop from 30% to 10%.  I doubt that further wind subsidies will be in place past 2015. 

In the US there are two types of subsidy, investment tax credits (ITC) and production tax credits (PTC).  ITCs are usable upon completion of the system.  Those tax reductions will be taken right away.  The PTCs cover production for the first ten years of system operation.  Most US subsidies should be paid out before 2030.

Renewable subsidies have been wildly successful.  Thirty years ago wind-electricity cost $0.38/kWh, now it is under $0.04/kWh (without subsidies).  Solar panel prices have fallen from around $100/watt to about $0.50/watt.

In the US we've spent about $25 billion on wind and solar subsidies.  We've spent over $185 billion on nuclear and its cost keeps rising.  We spend between $140 billion and $242 billion a year dealing with coal-related health problems.

SATire

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #731 on: December 28, 2014, 01:28:30 AM »
Here's a thought.  (Brace yourself. ::))

As renewables with "zero cost electricity" increase, we need a completely new pricing model for providing power.  Consider if:  everyone pays an electricity "tax", based on your tier of use (minimal, average residential, moderate business, heavy industrial, etc.), and your power is supplied at no charge -- sort of like universal health care.  Utilities are paid from the taxes according to the power they provide: renewable sources are worth more, and the remaining carbon emitters actually have to "pay to play."

I suppose even folks off the grid might need to pay (a minimal tax) until a new paradigm (micro-grids, self-powered buildings) emerges.
Sigmetnow, it is a good thing to open the mind for new market ideas. However, I do not like your idea of an electricity "flat rate": At no costs there would be no need for a sustainable way of living. It is way easier for people to reduce energy consumption if there is an increasing price tag on it. The not used kWh is the best kWh and the best way to get sustainable one day.

While it makes some sense to pay the grid from taxes - like e.g. streets or internet cables - it should cost a lot if you need something resulting in holes in the earth or CO2 in the atmosphere. E.g. at my place government/cities pay poor people an  A+++ fridge with 120 kWh/year instead of helping them to pay the electricity bill. 

Furthermore I do not see much need for utility companies in future: Mainly hydro and off-shore wind are left after exit fossils and nuclear. But all other renewables are mainly run by "normal" people here -  roof-top solar, farmers with bio-gas, communities with wind parks and such. It makes not much sense to pay all those people by taxes - that would result in squandering of resources.

Another point is, that subsidies will also be needed in future here - less than today but still significant (the 6,24 ct/kWh EEG in Germany in 2014 are about 23 billion Euro this year - if Bob is right then one year of subsidies here equals total cumulated subsidies in the US. (Before blaming stupid Germans now please consider, that the EEG is more efficient than the other models out there - that payment is a present to our children and yours, too).

I think we need way more charge for CO2 (strangely that would directly result in lower subsidies for renewables here...) and also taxes on all things depending on holes in the earth - thus any resource consumption. That could lead us to an economy with increasing efficiency and decreasing consumption. We need much less consumption of resources than today (e.g. 10% of today) to get independent from the holes. Then recycling could satisfy our needs and sustainability could be reached. After we have reached sustainability I would be open for ideas for increasing life-style again. But before that time such ideas would guide us in the wrong direction.

So any flat-rate for consumption is not helpful. Consumption must rise in price every year to teach us sustainability in the soft way. If we can not do that we perhaps will be taught the hard way to stop consumption at all. That is the thing to avoid and that is really worth some effort, I think.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #732 on: December 28, 2014, 02:05:00 AM »
Quote
I do not see much need for utility companies in future: Mainly hydro and off-shore wind are left after exit fossils and nuclear. But all other renewables are mainly run by "normal" people here -  roof-top solar, farmers with bio-gas, communities with wind parks and such.

What you are really saying is that there will be a lot more utility companies in the future and some of them will be fairly small.  Some, home owners with some extra solar to sell, will be micro-companies.

We need some terms that differentiate between "utility companies" that produce power and "utility companies" that distribute power.  Probably a third term for the companies that do both.  We'll keep the large and very large companies that distribute power / operate the grids.

Csnavywx

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #733 on: December 28, 2014, 05:37:47 AM »
Subsidies are likely to peak in the US in 2016.  That's the year that solar subsidies drop from 30% to 10%.  I doubt that further wind subsidies will be in place past 2015. 

In the US there are two types of subsidy, investment tax credits (ITC) and production tax credits (PTC).  ITCs are usable upon completion of the system.  Those tax reductions will be taken right away.  The PTCs cover production for the first ten years of system operation.  Most US subsidies should be paid out before 2030.

Renewable subsidies have been wildly successful. Thirty years ago wind-electricity cost $0.38/kWh, now it is under $0.04/kWh (without subsidies).  Solar panel prices have fallen from around $100/watt to about $0.50/watt.

In the US we've spent about $25 billion on wind and solar subsidies.  We've spent over $185 billion on nuclear and its cost keeps rising.  We spend between $140 billion and $242 billion a year dealing with coal-related health problems.

Which is why they need to be continued. We've got the boulder barely moving, but for some reason, we seem intent on just leaving it at that.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #734 on: December 28, 2014, 06:12:20 AM »
I think the answer is to put some sort of a price on carbon. Either a carbon tax or cap and trade.  That way the renewable/storage future can work itself out without distortion from inappropriately designed subsidy programs.

I'd make an exception for immature technologies such as offshore wind and thermal solar.  They need to be given some assistance to see if they can play a meaningful role.

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #735 on: December 28, 2014, 07:33:19 AM »
Re:Solar thermal

Solar hot water needs no subsidies, works today. Concentrating solar thermal will remain niche i think, since the price is not dropping as fast as solar PV and batteries

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #736 on: December 28, 2014, 10:08:11 AM »
Re:Solar thermal

Solar hot water needs no subsidies, works today. Concentrating solar thermal will remain niche i think, since the price is not dropping as fast as solar PV and batteries

sidd
Difficulty is that for the 1st world there are many problems 1)You have a sizable portion of the po. who are earning less than they did 30 yrs ago. 2) about the same who have high debt % than at any time in the past and still able to continue paying it. 3) gov (local and otherwise) regulation making DIY cheap efforts almost impossible. With all that you are left with more costly alternatives that most can not afford the upfront expenses.
One idea I just had was the allowing of electric coop utilities with the gov subsidizing it by building and maintaining the power grid, then you could have the coop providing loans for home owns to build solar cells and small wind turbines bought through the coop and they share the power and sell excess.
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crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #737 on: December 28, 2014, 12:34:25 PM »

Difficulty is that for the 1st world there are many problems 1)You have a sizable portion of the po. who are earning less than they did 30 yrs ago. 2) about the same who have high debt % than at any time in the past and still able to continue paying it.
...
One idea I just had was the allowing of electric coop utilities with the gov subsidizing it by building and maintaining the power grid, then you could have the coop providing loans for home owns to build solar cells and small wind turbines bought through the coop and they share the power and sell excess.

Do 1 and 2 matter much? If it makes sense, should still be able to find investors so that company installs solar pv without cost to tenant/landlord/home-owner. Investor gets any subsidies and charges electric user an amount guaranteed to be less than the saving on the electric. If the household is hard up and certainly cannot afford capital cost, then this should look attractive - perhaps more so the harder up they are.

SATire

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #738 on: December 28, 2014, 04:07:04 PM »
Quote
I do not see much need for utility companies in future: Mainly hydro and off-shore wind are left after exit fossils and nuclear. But all other renewables are mainly run by "normal" people here -  roof-top solar, farmers with bio-gas, communities with wind parks and such.

What you are really saying is that there will be a lot more utility companies in the future and some of them will be fairly small.  Some, home owners with some extra solar to sell, will be micro-companies.

We need some terms that differentiate between "utility companies" that produce power and "utility companies" that distribute power.  Probably a third term for the companies that do both.  We'll keep the large and very large companies that distribute power / operate the grids.
What I am really saying is, that today we have 4 big utility companies (running nuclear, coal, lignite, wind off-shore and big hydro) and 4 big network operators (e.g. running the 400 kV grid). Furthermore we have now about 1,4 million producers of electricity - most of them very small, e.g. <40 kW peak roof-top solar and others are e.g. cooperative wind farmers or private bio gas farmers. And then we have plenty of local distributors running the low voltage grid (the last mile) and selling the electricity to private end users - they are often owned by the cities. Finally we have some dealers which love to make a one year contract selling electricity produced by someone else through other parties grid - I do not know how you name such "companies", since they actually do nothing but marketing and selling ;-) But they call them self "utility", too. Like this one: http://www.yellostrom.de/

So that is the situation today. For the future I assume that renewables will increase further - so the number of electricity producers will rise, since there are still plenty of roofs without PV. And the 4 big utilities will shut down nuclear soon and than lignite and coal. So they will be left with hydro, wind off-shore (that is for really tough guys here in North sea...), the fossil backup (we will never risk to be without electricity during 3 windless weeks in winter - even if the risk is only 10%. Germans do not like such risks and I think we are right not to risk our life just to safe some money.) and maybe power-to-gas.

So please make your suggestion how you would name all those parties. Here we are fine with explaining the situation after understanding the "marketing tricks" ;-)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #739 on: December 28, 2014, 06:56:07 PM »
In the US we use those words differently.

In the US "network" companies are internet companies.  I've never heard the grid or any part of it referred to as network.

When someone says "utility company" in the US they almost always mean the company that sends you the bill for your electricity and gas usage.

A company that owns coal, nuclear, wind or solar production but sells only wholesale to "utility companies" is probably called a power company most of the time.

We're in a transition period, at least in the US, where we're moving from a single company that you contacted to have your electricity and gas turned on to a more complex system where you may purchase from one company but have a different company do the deliveries.  We haven't yet sorted out the new terminology.


Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #740 on: December 29, 2014, 12:55:17 AM »
Here's a thought.  (Brace yourself. ::))

As renewables with "zero cost electricity" increase, we need a completely new pricing model for providing power.  Consider if:  everyone pays an electricity "tax", based on your tier of use (minimal, average residential, moderate business, heavy industrial, etc.), and your power is supplied at no charge -- sort of like universal health care.  Utilities are paid from the taxes according to the power they provide: renewable sources are worth more, and the remaining carbon emitters actually have to "pay to play."

I suppose even folks off the grid might need to pay (a minimal tax) until a new paradigm (micro-grids, self-powered buildings) emerges.
Sigmetnow, it is a good thing to open the mind for new market ideas. However, I do not like your idea of an electricity "flat rate": At no costs there would be no need for a sustainable way of living. It is way easier for people to reduce energy consumption if there is an increasing price tag on it. The not used kWh is the best kWh and the best way to get sustainable one day.
...

So any flat-rate for consumption is not helpful. Consumption must rise in price every year to teach us sustainability in the soft way. If we can not do that we perhaps will be taught the hard way to stop consumption at all. That is the thing to avoid and that is really worth some effort, I think.

Hey, SATire.  You make some interesting points from a German perspective.

Here in the U.S., we have a long tradition  ;) of finding enough tax deductions to keep our income from rising into the next "tier" of a higher tax rate.  If our energy use is measured (as it is today), and people know they will be charged more if their total energy use rises above a certain point, most people will -- as you noted -- respond by curbing their use.  If people can get "deductions" from their tax, or move into a lower tax rate, by installing energy-efficient appliances, or installing solar or wind, that would also be an incentive.

Here, lessening your taxes by producing energy for your home, or getting paid for producing energy for others' homes, could be done, at an individual level, using the same sort of tax code we use today.  But then, our tax code is already Very Complicated -- so one more section to cover energy-use might not be the big deal to us that you envision it would be for you.

Anyway, I was just throwing the idea out there, for a fun thought-exercise.  As you say, other efforts still need to be made, to reduce carbon and increase efficiency.  No argument there.  But I think we all recognize that the financial side of the business of energy-production-and-consumption needs as much of an overhaul as the physical part.

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wili

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #741 on: December 30, 2014, 02:34:52 PM »
http://phys.org/news/2014-12-america-sun-energy-goal.html

America's place in the sun: Energy report sets goal

Quote
A recent energy report said that America should build on the recent growth in solar energy by setting a goal of obtaining at least 10 percent of its electricity from solar power by 2030. "Star Power: The Growing Role of Solar Energy in America" from the Environment America Research & Policy Center said that the federal government should commit to a baseline goal of obtaining at least 10 percent of the nation's electricity from solar energy by that time.







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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #742 on: December 30, 2014, 09:43:36 PM »
The IEA has greatly underestimated the growth of renewables for some years now.  Why?

Quote
Taking a conservative view of future prospects in the energy sector can be necessary to avoid being swayed by the latest fad.  A conservative view recognises the realities of the long time horizons and vast scale of the world’s energy systems.  However it can carry the risk of missing the role of genuinely transformative technologies, as appears to be the case here.  The IEA’s current caution may still prove justified.  But  Eurelectric, the European power industry association, noted in a recent report that the European power sector is already undergoing one of the largest transformations in its history[3].  Such changes seem likely to be a global phenomenon.  Wind and (especially) solar PV seem likely to form part of the largest transformation of the energy sector at least since the growth of oil consumption in the middle decades of the 20th century, and perhaps since the invention of the steam engine.  The IEA seems to be slow to recognise this.
https://onclimatechangepolicydotorg.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/why-have-the-ieas-projections-of-renewables-growth-been-so-much-lower-than-the-out-turn/
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SATire

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #743 on: December 30, 2014, 11:06:41 PM »
The IEA has greatly underestimated the growth of renewables for some years now.  Why?
That is a typical "not invented here"-blindness. The renewables were boosted in Europe and then in China and now slowly in USA. It was already quite mature somewhere else when it started to grow in USA.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #744 on: December 30, 2014, 11:20:53 PM »
There's something much more wrong than just the EIA being conservative and avoiding "fads".

Here's the EIA prediction of solar installation in the US. When the subsidy drops from 30% to 10% at the end of 2016 solar installations will cease and not restart for a decade.



Here's what the EIA is predicting the US grid to look like in 2040.



Over 29 years we will convert only 3% of our gen to renewables.  That's 0.1% a year.  Non-hydro renewables have been growing faster than that since 2000.  Wind and solar combined grew at an annual average of 0.7% of total during the three years preceding 2011.

Coal will drop only 1% share over the 29 years. We're not building new coal plants.  25% of our existing coal plants are on schedule to be close in the next couple of years.  Many of our other coal plants will well past their expected lifespan well before 29 years are played out.

Between 2008 and  2011 fossil fuels lost a 3% market share.  Since 2011 they are down another couple percent.



Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #745 on: December 31, 2014, 02:12:51 AM »
Another category of clean energy we'll be seeing more of:  human powered.  And I don't mean pedaling-a-stationary-bicycle.  Although, particularly when you visit the gym....  Why not?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/30/tech/innovation/tomorrow-transformed-energy-harvesting/index.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #746 on: January 01, 2015, 02:37:42 AM »
Zero net energy buildings using "smart glass" are being built today.
Quote
View is turning a former racquetball club in Sunnyvale into a “zero-net-energy” office building — one that generates as much electricity as it uses over the course of a year. Solar panels on the roof will supply the electricity. The windows, covering about 40 percent of the walls, filter sunlight and glare to slash cooling costs.
 “You have to maximize the things that are free, and minimize the things that are expensive,” said Brandon Tinianov, View’s senior director of business development. “Daylight is free. Air conditioning is expensive.”
 California officials looking to cut energy use and fight climate change have big plans for zero net energy, often shortened to ZNE or “net zero.” The state has adopted a nonbinding goal that by 2020, all new homes will be net zero, with new commercial buildings meeting the same standard by 2030.
 “The technology is in place — it’s just a matter of getting the (construction) industry tooled up to do this,” said Meg Waltner, manager of building energy policy for the Natural Resources Defense Council.
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/How-smart-glass-windows-slash-energy-bills-5984083.php
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #747 on: January 02, 2015, 05:13:49 PM »
The story of Germany's energy transition.
Quote
Such a massive power shift may sound impossible to those of us from the United States, where giant oil and coal corporations control the energy industry and the very idea of human-caused climate change is still hotly contested. Here in Germany, that debate is long over. A dozen years of growing public support have driven all major political parties to endorse the Energiewende. If a member of parliament called climate change a hoax or said that its cause is unknown, he or she would be laughed out of office.
http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20121113/germany-energiewende-clean-energy-economy-renewables-solar-wind-biomass-nuclear-renewable-energy-transformation
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #748 on: January 02, 2015, 09:33:21 PM »
 ;)
"This Amazing Device that Runs on Bananas, Carbohydrates, and Other Food Will Revolutionize American Cities in 2015." http://t.co/UnSY16qTXC.
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Laurent

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #749 on: January 04, 2015, 02:25:26 PM »
Equity in Cleantech: Confronting the Solar Industry’s Diversity Issue
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/featured/confronting-the-solar-industrys-diversity-issue