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rboyd

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Re: Coal
« Reply #650 on: March 13, 2017, 10:11:48 PM »
CCS has a lot of hidden costs:
- The cost of transportation and storage, at least an extra $10 per ton carbon
- The extra mining of coal, as CCS uses more coal to power the required processes, releases methane. On a CO2 equivalent basis this will reduce the amount of net captured CO2 and drive up the per ton cost
- The cost of the extra power if it were sold at retail costs
- Maintenance and wear and tear on big, complex, pieces of equipment

So, probably well north of $100 per ton CO2 equivalent, say $130+. Probably why CCS has completely stalled and seems to have no chance of the grandiose build out assumed in the UN IPCC scenarios. We simply have to cut coal use rapidly (and not replace it with natural gas which is just as bad once you count the fugitive methane emissions).

Of course, this will not happen in the US with a Trump administration. Wasn't happening anywhere near fast enough under an Obama administration, The recent falls in natural gas prices in the US will  simply drive electricity generation from coal to natural gas.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #651 on: March 22, 2017, 05:39:18 PM »
Coal in 'freefall' as new power plants dive by two-thirds in 2016
The amount of new coal power being built around the world fell by nearly two-thirds last year, prompting campaigners to claim the polluting fossil fuel was in freefall.

The dramatic decline in new coal-fired units was overwhelmingly due to policy shifts in China and India and subsequent declining investment prospects, according to a report by Greenpeace, the US-based Sierra Club and research network CoalSwarm.

The report said the amount of new capacity starting construction was down 62% in 2016 on the year before, and work was frozen at more than a hundred sites in China and India. In January, China’s energy regulator halted work on a further 100 new coal-fired projects, suggesting the trend was not going away.

Researchers for the groups said a record amount of coal power station capacity was also retired globally last year, mostly in the US and EU, including Scotland closing its last one.

One of the reasons for the fall in new plants was that too much capacity had been built in recent years, particularly in China.
...
In total, 64GW of coal capacity was retired last year, mainly in the US and EU. Despite US President Donald Trump saying on Monday that he is preparing a new executive order to help America’s ailing coal industry, campaigners echoed analysts who have said he is unlikely to be able to significantly stop its decline.

“Markets are demanding clean energy, and no amount of rhetoric from Donald Trump will be able to stop the fall of coal in the US and across the globe,” said Nicole Ghio, senior campaigner at the Sierra Club, a US-based NGO which has managed to force many US coal plants to close over the last decade....
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/22/coal-power-plants-green-energy-china-india
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #652 on: April 04, 2017, 04:23:48 PM »
Australia:

'Barbaric': Farmers rattled as Adani coal mine granted unlimited water access
The proposed Adani coal mine has been granted unlimited access to groundwater by the Queensland government in a move farmers fear would allow it to drain huge amounts of water from the Great Artesian Basin.

According to a copy of Adani's water licence obtained by Fairfax Media, the $16 billion Carmichael mine merely needs to monitor and report the amount of water it extracts with a permit that runs until 2077.
...
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/barbaric-farmers-rattled-as-adani-coal-mine-granted-unlimited-water-access-20170404-gvdk5v.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #653 on: April 05, 2017, 03:31:14 PM »
The end of coal: EU energy companies pledge no new plants from 2020
Europe’s energy utilities have rung a death knell for coal, with a historic pledge that no new coal-fired plants will be built in the EU after 2020.

The surprise announcement was made at a press conference in Brussels on Wednesday, 442 years after the continent’s first pit was sunk by Sir George Bruce of Carnock, in Scotland.

National energy companies from every EU nation – except Poland and Greece – have signed up to the initiative, which will overhaul the bloc’s energy-generating future.
...
Wendel Trio, the director of Climate Action Network Europe, hailed the news as “the beginning of the end for coal”.

“It is now clear that there is no future for coal in the EU,” he said. “The question is: what is the date for its phase out in the EU, and how hard will the coal industry fight to keep plants open, even if they are no longer economically viable?”
...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/05/the-end-of-coal-eu-energy-companies-pledge-no-new-plants-from-2020
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #654 on: April 05, 2017, 04:33:43 PM »
The end of coal: EU energy companies pledge no new plants from 2020
Europe’s energy utilities have rung a death knell for coal, with a historic pledge that no new coal-fired plants will be built in the EU after 2020.

The surprise announcement was made at a press conference in Brussels on Wednesday, 442 years after the continent’s first pit was sunk by Sir George Bruce of Carnock, in Scotland.

National energy companies from every EU nation – except Poland and Greece – have signed up to the initiative, which will overhaul the bloc’s energy-generating future.
...
Wendel Trio, the director of Climate Action Network Europe, hailed the news as “the beginning of the end for coal”.

“It is now clear that there is no future for coal in the EU,” he said. “The question is: what is the date for its phase out in the EU, and how hard will the coal industry fight to keep plants open, even if they are no longer economically viable?”
...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/05/the-end-of-coal-eu-energy-companies-pledge-no-new-plants-from-2020

Sweet...
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oren

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Re: Coal
« Reply #655 on: April 05, 2017, 09:39:10 PM »
I know the EU are the good guys, but any new coal plant built now could last 50 years. Why are the necessary actions always postponed to the future? Why not immediately?
(sorry about the rant...)

magnamentis

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Re: Coal
« Reply #656 on: April 05, 2017, 10:24:31 PM »
I know the EU are the good guys, but any new coal plant built now could last 50 years. Why are the necessary actions always postponed to the future? Why not immediately?
(sorry about the rant...)

because the governments would be sued for compensation payments to the enterprises who in good faith, before being aware of such a new law or before it was implemented, invested huge amounts of money in panning (and lobbying LOL) so the term is "Rechtsicherheit" means translated more or less something like reliability of the law that is in effect when certain processed that take years to finalization were started, this among other things that fall under that "term".

of course there is more to it and not all is "sound" (clean) but then that's the main reason, after all, once again it's either money to earn or money to safe for either side but money it always is.
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rboyd

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Re: Coal
« Reply #657 on: April 06, 2017, 12:31:32 AM »
Germany built a lot of new coal plants in the past couple of decades, some very recently. One reason perhaps why the coal phase out there continues on into the 2040's; enough time for them to be fully depreciated and to earn their expected revenues.

A big headache for Holland, where three new coal plans opened in 2015 and the parliament is talking about closing them down by 2030.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/germany-opens-giant-new-coal-plant-it-no-longer-needs-40255/

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/23/dutch-parliament-votes-to-close-down-countrys-coal-industry

From the Guardian article referenced by sigmentnow: "Europe will have to phase out all of its coal plants by 2030 or else “vastly overshoot” its Paris climate pledges, climate experts say." That's the real test, especially with Poland opting out of the commitment to not built new coal plants after 2020 (it gets 90% of its electricity from coal).

« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 12:37:22 AM by rboyd »

TerryM

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Re: Coal
« Reply #658 on: April 06, 2017, 04:12:16 AM »
The end of coal: EU energy companies pledge no new plants from 2020
Europe’s energy utilities have rung a death knell for coal, with a historic pledge that no new coal-fired plants will be built in the EU after 2020.

The surprise announcement was made at a press conference in Brussels on Wednesday, 442 years after the continent’s first pit was sunk by Sir George Bruce of Carnock, in Scotland.

National energy companies from every EU nation – except Poland and Greece – have signed up to the initiative, which will overhaul the bloc’s energy-generating future.
...
Wendel Trio, the director of Climate Action Network Europe, hailed the news as “the beginning of the end for coal”.

“It is now clear that there is no future for coal in the EU,” he said. “The question is: what is the date for its phase out in the EU, and how hard will the coal industry fight to keep plants open, even if they are no longer economically viable?”
...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/05/the-end-of-coal-eu-energy-companies-pledge-no-new-plants-from-2020


Very good news for the atmosphere, and Russian gas exports. If Poland insists on eschewing the clean burning gas that the rest of the EU uses, perhaps the others will place tariffs on nations that deliberately choose to pollute, even those within the free trade zone.
Boycott may be the path for the rest of us.
Terry

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #659 on: April 06, 2017, 05:08:24 AM »
The end of coal: EU energy companies pledge no new plants from 2020
Europe’s energy utilities have rung a death knell for coal, with a historic pledge that no new coal-fired plants will be built in the EU after 2020.

The surprise announcement was made at a press conference in Brussels on Wednesday, 442 years after the continent’s first pit was sunk by Sir George Bruce of Carnock, in Scotland.

National energy companies from every EU nation – except Poland and Greece – have signed up to the initiative, which will overhaul the bloc’s energy-generating future.
...
Wendel Trio, the director of Climate Action Network Europe, hailed the news as “the beginning of the end for coal”.

“It is now clear that there is no future for coal in the EU,” he said. “The question is: what is the date for its phase out in the EU, and how hard will the coal industry fight to keep plants open, even if they are no longer economically viable?”
...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/05/the-end-of-coal-eu-energy-companies-pledge-no-new-plants-from-2020


Very good news for the atmosphere, and Russian gas exports. If Poland insists on eschewing the clean burning gas that the rest of the EU uses, perhaps the others will place tariffs on nations that deliberately choose to pollute, even those within the free trade zone.
Boycott may be the path for the rest of us.
Terry

Poland and Greece did not due to their coal resources and bad economies. They would have to import all the gas. A lot of the new western European gas could be LNG. Single source and dependence (Russian) is too risky.
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
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TerryM

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Re: Coal
« Reply #660 on: April 06, 2017, 06:23:38 AM »

Poland and Greece did not due to their coal resources and bad economies. They would have to import all the gas. A lot of the new western European gas could be LNG. Single source and dependence (Russian) is too risky.


Greece is in financial hot water, but Poland's stand is a politically motivated one.


Poland isn't advocating the use of LNG, they want to burn coal. Perhaps a very heavy carbon penalty will persuade them to clean up their act.
Those that choose to pay the penalty that LNG costs entail are at least paying to play, unlike those that expect a free ride while destroying the atmosphere for all of us.
I think everyone here recognizes the environmental costs of coal, as well as the environmental damage done by fracked gas, which is the source of American produced LNG.
Let's not give anyone a free pass because of their politics - dirty fuel is dirty fuel, and should be phased out ASAP.
I for one will try to avoid Polish products until such time as they drop coal.


Terry

gerontocrat

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Re: Coal
« Reply #661 on: April 06, 2017, 11:50:27 AM »
Australian politicians are still trying to help finance a huge new coalmine. The link below gives a view on this outrage against just about everything.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2017/apr/04/brenda-the-civil-disobedience-penguin-v-the-adani-mine-democracy-is-fatally-compromised

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DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #662 on: April 06, 2017, 12:32:04 PM »

Poland and Greece did not due to their coal resources and bad economies. They would have to import all the gas. A lot of the new western European gas could be LNG. Single source and dependence (Russian) is too risky.


Greece is in financial hot water, but Poland's stand is a politically motivated one.


Poland isn't advocating the use of LNG, they want to burn coal. Perhaps a very heavy carbon penalty will persuade them to clean up their act.
Those that choose to pay the penalty that LNG costs entail are at least paying to play, unlike those that expect a free ride while destroying the atmosphere for all of us.
I think everyone here recognizes the environmental costs of coal, as well as the environmental damage done by fracked gas, which is the source of American produced LNG.
Let's not give anyone a free pass because of their politics - dirty fuel is dirty fuel, and should be phased out ASAP.
I for one will try to avoid Polish products until such time as they drop coal.


Terry

Your better avoid Indian and Chinese too...
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #663 on: April 06, 2017, 12:42:05 PM »
First of all... who said American LNG ? But anyway... Qatar would probably be the largest source. I think Italy already has a couple of terminals already. ..

“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #664 on: April 06, 2017, 12:47:19 PM »
And the Greeks are complete morons for not taking advantage of cheap Chinese solar panels ( as u mentioned ) and wind.  Both are more than abundant.  But I digress...
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
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DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #665 on: April 06, 2017, 12:49:31 PM »
Also lets boycott the people that produce the most coal

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/ieo/images/figure_4-4.png
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

TerryM

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Re: Coal
« Reply #666 on: April 06, 2017, 06:25:06 PM »
Australian politicians are still trying to help finance a huge new coalmine. The link below gives a view on this outrage against just about everything.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2017/apr/04/brenda-the-civil-disobedience-penguin-v-the-adani-mine-democracy-is-fatally-compromised
Thanks
Yes that is outrageous.
I'm proud of my province, Ontario, as it went from hosting one of the worlds largest coal plants to zero coal in a fairly short time. Federally my government is hypocritical in that it talks green while putting onerous tariffs on solar panels. My stance against tar sand exploitation is a protest against the Keystone Pipeline.


Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #667 on: April 06, 2017, 06:59:27 PM »
Irony alert!   ;D

Kentucky Coal Mining Museum converts to solar power
http://www.wymt.com/content/news/Kentucky-Coal-Mining-Museum-converts-to-solar-power-418430563.html
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TerryM

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Re: Coal
« Reply #668 on: April 06, 2017, 07:06:41 PM »
First of all... who said American LNG ? But anyway... Qatar would probably be the largest source. I think Italy already has a couple of terminals already. ..



IIRC there is at least one port in the Balkans, but it, and it's sponsoring country are in serious financial trouble since they expected neighboring countries to buy their reconstituted gas to help them meet their minimums, The neighbors apparently spoke of solidarity, but wouldn't pay the huge markup over piped in Russian gas.


America is already the world's primary source for LPG with many more facilities being built, or on the drawing board.
http://www.lngworldshipping.com/news/view,us-builds-terminals-to-boost-lpg-exports_40846.htm
And the first to win an export permit for fracked American gas way back in 2012 was a company 70% owned by Qatar!
http://business.financialpost.com/news/energy/qatar-exxon-venture-wins-first-u-s-lng-export-permit


As Americas fracked gas is marketed around the world domestic prices will jump, but international conglomerates will flourish.


Ain't life wonderful?
Terry
Edit:
I believe that China has been shutting down already completed coal burning facilities, suggesting your graphs may be out of date.


TerryM

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Re: Coal
« Reply #669 on: April 06, 2017, 07:13:39 PM »
Irony alert!   ;D

Kentucky Coal Mining Museum converts to solar power
http://www.wymt.com/content/news/Kentucky-Coal-Mining-Museum-converts-to-solar-power-418430563.html

Museums are for dead things, I think solar power is quite fitting. :)


Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #670 on: April 06, 2017, 08:08:52 PM »
A massive coal mining project was scrapped in Alaska after no one would invest in it
A controversial coal mining project in Alaska worth more than $600 million has been abandoned by its developers, underscoring the uphill battle President Donald Trump will face in fulfilling his promise to bring coal mining jobs back to America.

PacRim Coal LP, the developer behind the Chuitna Coal Project, was in the later stages of the state and federal mine permitting process to develop coal deposits 45 miles southwest of Anchorage. The firm planned to ship the coal to South Korea, Japan, and China.

But PacRim has suspended all permitting activities and will no longer pursue the project after failing to find an investment partner in the venture, an Alaskan state official confirmed to VICE News.
...
https://news.vice.com/story/chuitna-coal-mine-scrapped-in-alaska-after-no-one-would-invest-in-it
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DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #671 on: April 06, 2017, 09:07:45 PM »
First of all... who said American LNG ? But anyway... Qatar would probably be the largest source. I think Italy already has a couple of terminals already. ..



IIRC there is at least one port in the Balkans, but it, and it's sponsoring country are in serious financial trouble since they expected neighboring countries to buy their reconstituted gas to help them meet their minimums, The neighbors apparently spoke of solidarity, but wouldn't pay the huge markup over piped in Russian gas.


America is already the world's primary source for LPG with many more facilities being built, or on the drawing board.
http://www.lngworldshipping.com/news/view,us-builds-terminals-to-boost-lpg-exports_40846.htm
And the first to win an export permit for fracked American gas way back in 2012 was a company 70% owned by Qatar!
http://business.financialpost.com/news/energy/qatar-exxon-venture-wins-first-u-s-lng-export-permit


As Americas fracked gas is marketed around the world domestic prices will jump, but international conglomerates will flourish.


Ain't life wonderful?
Terry
Edit:
I believe that China has been shutting down already completed coal burning facilities, suggesting your graphs may be out of date.

2016 graphs... China is not shutting down coal..they have scrapped plans to build new ones. But the will debottleneck existing ones...
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #672 on: April 06, 2017, 09:42:39 PM »
Thought at first this was a joke. But, no!

U.S. Interior Dept. changes website from family visiting park to a giant pile of coal
Even the smallest of symbolic details can't escape the changes of life in Trump's America. The government agency responsible for overseeing a staggering 258 million acres of land, including ecologically vital conservation areas, has changed the image on its homepage from a scenic park vista to a massive, tall pile of coal.

The website change, which happened in the past 24 hours, is in keeping with the Trump administration's push to drill for oil, natural gas, and minerals on public lands.
...
http://mashable.com/2017/04/06/interior-department-changes-webpage-coal-pile/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #673 on: April 06, 2017, 11:14:59 PM »
Holy F-bomb.... :o
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
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TerryM

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Re: Coal
« Reply #674 on: April 06, 2017, 11:25:59 PM »
Thought at first this was a joke. But, no!

U.S. Interior Dept. changes website from family visiting park to a giant pile of coal
Even the smallest of symbolic details can't escape the changes of life in Trump's America. The government agency responsible for overseeing a staggering 258 million acres of land, including ecologically vital conservation areas, has changed the image on its homepage from a scenic park vista to a massive, tall pile of coal.

The website change, which happened in the past 24 hours, is in keeping with the Trump administration's push to drill for oil, natural gas, and minerals on public lands.
...
http://mashable.com/2017/04/06/interior-department-changes-webpage-coal-pile/



This could start a trend ... How about that photo of the little Vietnamese girl, screaming as she runs away from the Napalmtm dropped from the friendly skies by ... The Department of Defense


The Department of Justice could feature a naked scene from Abu Ghraib, complete with dogs.


The possibilities are endless, except for the EPA who will have their computers seized.


Terry

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #675 on: April 06, 2017, 11:39:50 PM »
< deleted OT...>
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #676 on: April 07, 2017, 10:20:43 PM »
Only a matter of time before they designate the Grand Canyon for coal ash disposal....   ::) :o :( >:(
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #677 on: April 08, 2017, 05:21:21 PM »
When you know the truth, but your job requires you to have an alternative world view.

Coal CEO to Trump: Stay in Paris climate deal
...remain in the Paris accord, but soften the U.S. emissions pledge, end payments to United Nations-backed green energy funds, and promote development of low-emissions coal technologies, among other things. ...
https://www.axios.com/coal-ceo-to-trump-stay-in-paris-climate-deal-2348023290.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

gerontocrat

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Re: Coal
« Reply #678 on: April 11, 2017, 03:24:57 PM »
MADNESS
MADNESS

Malcolm Turnbull tells Indian billionaire native title will not stop Adani coalmine
Prime minister also confirmed company would seek $1bn government loan to fund rail line for $16bn project, after meeting Gautam Adani in New Delhi

Note that this is while the reports on new coral bleaching of the great barrier reef continue to flood in,
and it seems that cyclone Debbie floods are sending vast amounts of sediment contaminated with coal dust towards the reef.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/11/malcolm-turnbull-tells-indian-billionaire-native-title-will-not-stop-adani-coalmine

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/10/great-barrier-reef-terminal-stage-australia-scientists-despair-latest-coral-bleaching-data

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/apr/11/run-off-pollution-from-cyclone-debbie-flooding-sweeps-into-great-barrier-reef
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sidd

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Re: Coal
« Reply #679 on: April 17, 2017, 07:50:57 AM »
Now this is interesting. April 10th article from the AZ republic about our favorite bankrupt coal company  Peabody trying to sell the navajo coal generating station under the utility currently operating it, who want to close it down. The thing is a monster, and the major eater of coal from a peabody mine.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/energy/2017/04/10/peabody-energy-hopes-land-buyer-troubled-navajo-generating-station/100303150/

and then we have the IRS notice on april 12th that "For calendar year 2017, the credit period for Indian coal production has expired."

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/04/12/2017-07493/credit-for-renewable-electricity-production-and-refined-coal-production-and-publication-of-inflation

Goodbye Peabody. Can't say I'll miss you.

sidd


Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #680 on: April 17, 2017, 03:56:49 PM »
 The Australia-India connection.

There’s An Army Of Indian Twitter Accounts Pushing Suspiciously Identical Pro-Mining Tweets
The accounts appear to post tweets with very specific talking points.
Australian prime minister Malcolm Turnbull met with Indian mining boss Gautam Adani last week over the future of a controversial coal project on the edge of the Great Barrier Reef.

When Adani met with Turnbull last week, the mining boss tweeted this picture which showed the men with Indian prime minister Narendra Modi.

But when the replies to the tweet started rolling in, it was clear that several were pushing a very specific talking point. ...
https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/adani-mine-army
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

rboyd

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Re: Coal
« Reply #681 on: April 18, 2017, 05:13:35 PM »
Coal is pretty much dead in the UK

Through a 50% jump in natural gas usage in 2016. Coal supplies less than 10% of electricity. Wind stalled in 2016, but there were increases in solar and biomass (although a lot of controversy over burning wood pellets from US forests).

https://theconversation.com/the-year-coal-collapsed-2016-was-a-turning-point-for-britains-electricity-70877

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #682 on: April 18, 2017, 06:19:14 PM »
Coal is pretty much dead in the UK

Through a 50% jump in natural gas usage in 2016. Coal supplies less than 10% of electricity. Wind stalled in 2016, but there were increases in solar and biomass (although a lot of controversy over burning wood pellets from US forests).

https://theconversation.com/the-year-coal-collapsed-2016-was-a-turning-point-for-britains-electricity-70877

Huge controversy in my mind. It takes years of past and future CO2 stored and emitting them instantly. Not sustainable!!
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #683 on: April 19, 2017, 05:42:32 AM »
Burning biomass does not de-sequester fossil fuel carbon.  As long as we have a good replant process we should be able to burn some biofuel without hurting ourselves too much.

Much less hurt than burning coal.

And I think we tend to overlook the carbon that trees and other plants do sequester in their root systems.  A tree can have as much mass below ground as above.  If we cut off the top for fuel we're only taking half of what that tree has pulled out of the atmosphere.  It could be that by harvesting mature trees and replanting in their place we actually get more carbon underground than leaving the tree to stand then eventually die and rot, releasing its above ground carbon.

Long run we probably ought not plan on making biomass from  trees a major part of our fuel system.  But during the transition it's probably better to burn biomass than coal.

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #684 on: April 19, 2017, 02:16:06 PM »
Burning biomass does not de-sequester fossil fuel carbon.  As long as we have a good replant process we should be able to burn some biofuel without hurting ourselves too much.

Much less hurt than burning coal.

And I think we tend to overlook the carbon that trees and other plants do sequester in their root systems.  A tree can have as much mass below ground as above.  If we cut off the top for fuel we're only taking half of what that tree has pulled out of the atmosphere.  It could be that by harvesting mature trees and replanting in their place we actually get more carbon underground than leaving the tree to stand then eventually die and rot, releasing its above ground carbon.

Long run we probably ought not plan on making biomass from  trees a major part of our fuel system.  But during the transition it's probably better to burn biomass than coal.

Do you think we currently are not greedy enough to have a good replanting process?

Is the mass of wood consumed in balance with the growth of new trees in the area they were harvested?  Right now the few of them burn wood pellets from wood use byproducts!! All good with that.

However, past history with other resources has shown the tendency to over-build and this would result to the felling of trees exclusively for power generation. It is a moral hazard.

[EDIT] this already happens now

It took half a century for an acorn to grow into the 20-meter-tall oak tree standing here in a North Carolina hardwood forest near the banks of the Northeast Cape Fear River. But it takes just seconds to turn the oak into fuel for the furnace of a European power plant.

"It basically tells the Congo and Indonesia and every other forested country in the world: ‘If you cut down your forests and use them for energy, not only is that not bad, it's good,’" says Tim Searchinger, a senior fellow at the World Resources Institute in Washington, D.C., who has studied the carbon impacts of wood energy.

Oak trees in North Carolina are heading for a U.K. power plant largely because of a single number: zero. That's the amount of CO2 that European power plants can claim they emit when burning wood. It's not true, of course, and in some cases wood-burning furnaces actually puff more CO2 from their smokestacks per unit of electricity produced than those burning coal or natural gas. (In part, that's because wood can have a higher water content than other fuels, and some of its energy goes to boiling off the water.) But under the European Union's ambitious 2009 plan to produce 20% of its electricity from renewable resources by 2020, regulators endorsed an earlier decision to designate wood as a carbon-neutral fuel for the purposes of emissions accounting.

In response, some countries—including the United Kingdom, Belgium, Denmark, and the Netherlands—have built new wood-fired plants or converted coal-fired plants to wood. The United Kingdom has been one of the most enthusiastic, with the government providing subsidies for wood pellets that make them competitive with fossil fuels. At the country's largest power station, a 4000-megawatt behemoth in North Yorkshire, owner Drax Group has converted half of the furnaces to burn wood pellets.

U.S. exports, nearly all from the southeast, grew from zero in 2005 to more than 6.5 million metric tons in 2016, according to Forisk Consulting, a firm in Athens, Georgia. Pellet exports are expected to grow to 9 million metric tons by 2021.

 
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

gerontocrat

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Re: Coal
« Reply #685 on: April 19, 2017, 04:24:51 PM »
COAL. Not biomass and forests. So I will not reply on this thread. What self-discipline Sir Governor Neven ?
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rboyd

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Re: Coal
« Reply #686 on: April 19, 2017, 04:52:34 PM »
Looks like we need a biomass thread

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #687 on: April 19, 2017, 06:16:45 PM »
COAL. Not biomass and forests. So I will not reply on this thread. What self-discipline Sir Governor Neven ?

These are COAL plants that they are converting. How do you have handle overlapping technologies? With overlapping threads?
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

DrTskoul

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Re: Coal
« Reply #688 on: April 19, 2017, 06:18:28 PM »
Anyway, that was a rhetorical question. OT over.. we are becoming a little too sensitive
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #689 on: April 22, 2017, 07:37:42 AM »
NG Control Room @ NGControlRoom
National Grid can confirm that for the past 24 hours, it has supplied GB’s electricity demand without the need for #coal generation.


Javier Blas‏Verified account
Javier Blas Retweeted NG Control Room
CONFIRMED: UK goes for a full day without burning #coal to generate #electricity for first time in 135 years #climatechange #renewables

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #690 on: April 22, 2017, 03:49:10 PM »
British power generation achieves first ever coal-free day
National Grid hails milestone as other sources like gas, nuclear, wind and solar allow UK to keep lights on with all coal-fired powerplants offline
Friday was Britain’s first ever working day without coal power since the Industrial Revolution, according to the National Grid.

The control room tweeted the milestone on Friday. It is the first continuous 24-hour coal-free period for Britain since use of the fossil fuel began. West Burton 1 power station, the only coal-fired plant that had been up and running, went offline on Thursday....
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/21/britain-set-for-first-coal-free-day-since-the-industrial-revolution
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #691 on: April 27, 2017, 03:40:30 AM »
We've already destroyed the land; can't do anything else with it; so, sure, let's put solar there.  Jobs!

Coal company plans huge solar farm on strip mine
An Eastern Kentucky coal mining company plans to build what could become the state's largest solar farm on a reclaimed mountaintop strip mine, promising jobs for displaced coal miners.
...
"I grew up with coal," said Ryan Johns, an executive with Berkeley, an Eastern Kentucky coal company. "Our company has been in the coal business for 30 years. We are not looking at this as trying to replace coal, but we have already extracted the coal from this area." He said it's just an extension of using that land to produce energy for the nation while putting out of work coal miners back to work.
...
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/tech/science/environment/2017/04/18/coal-company-plans-huge-solar-farm-strip-mine/100597672/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

gerontocrat

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Re: Coal
« Reply #692 on: April 27, 2017, 03:27:26 PM »
GOLDMAN SACHS BET ON COAL AND GOT SCREWED (Peabody Energy & Energy Future Holdings Corp. and Claire's Stores Inc.). Couldn't happen to a nicer company. If I was a US citizen with a 401(k) maybe I would be asking the fund managers how much of my loot was directly and indirectly in fossil fuels. These guys put peoples' individual futures at risk. URL below.

https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2017-04-24/goldman-sachs-s-debt-trading-miss-makes-case-for-volcker-rule
SHARE DIVE
Debt-trading revenues tend to be volatile. That's normal. But something was abnormal about how disappointing Goldman Sachs's fixed-income trading results were in the first three months of 2017.Goldman is typically a powerhouse in this lucrative business, and yet the New York bank was the only one of its peers to miss analysts' debt-trading estimates for the quarter. The firm's explanation that credit trading in particular was weak made little sense because volumes set records, and other banks cited that area as notably strong.
SHARE DIVE

Bloomberg News reporters uncovered the real reason in an article on Monday: Goldman traders bet big on specific distressed credits, including Peabody Energy Corp., Energy Future Holdings Corp. and Claire's Stores Inc., and those wagers went belly up.

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sidd

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Re: Coal
« Reply #693 on: April 29, 2017, 09:05:34 PM »
Adani's woes mount:

1)Westpac refused to fund Australian coal mine

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-28/westpac-adds-coal-to-its-lending-black-list/8479600

2)India Supreme Court takes away tariff increae, wipes out already booked revenue of more than the company's entire net worth.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/power/sc-ruling-on-power-tariffs-to-hit-imported-coal-based-power-generators/articleshow/58351409.cms

Adani's debt load will kill it shortly. Cheers.

sidd

rboyd

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Re: Coal
« Reply #694 on: April 30, 2017, 08:22:02 PM »
From the second article:

"The issue started back in 2010 when Indonesia revised its export norms that led to a sharp rise in coal prices. Both Tata Power and Adani Power depend on coal imports from Indonesia and they had to shell out higher prices for the coal they imported. To pass the increased input costs to consumers they tried to invoke the force majeure clause in the power purchase agreements with clients ... Nevertheless, India Ratings believes that Tata Power at a consolidated level has a natural hedge to the increase in coal prices due to its 30% stake in an Indonesian coalmine."

Looks like Tata could be in a very good position to pick up Adani assets on the cheap.

sidd

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Re: Coal
« Reply #695 on: April 30, 2017, 09:34:10 PM »
Prediction: Adani assets will not be bought by Tata Power. They are hemoragging money on all their coal plants, including the so called hedge. As always, I could be wrong.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Coal
« Reply #696 on: May 05, 2017, 12:44:06 AM »
Duke Energy abandons in-person annual meeting after years of anti-coal protests
Corporate governance experts believe companies go virtual to avoid adverse publicity.
https://thinkprogress.org/duke-energy-abandons-in-person-shareholder-meeting-d9837db3969b
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rboyd

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Re: Coal
« Reply #697 on: May 08, 2017, 03:37:36 PM »
China expected to invest US$15bn in coal-fired power projects in Pakistan

Seems China has no problem adding coal-fired power stations in Pakistan, adding up to a dozen coal-fired power stations in the next 15 years. Part of the China Pakistan Economic Corridor.

"The coal-fired power projects are part of the US$54bn China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), which will include US$33bn of investments in 19 power projects (coal-fired and renewable power plants, transmission lines and other energy infrastructure). This should raise Pakistan's power generation by 6 GW by the end of 2018 and should eventually add 16 GW of power capacity, of which 1/4 from renewables (3,900 MW from three hydropower projects, four wind projects and a solar park) and 3/4 from coal-fired power plants.

This future surge in coal-fired power generation is expected to raise its greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions, which are already rising by 3.9%/year and reached 405 MtCO2eq in 2015. The new coal-fired power plants will use the latest supercritical technology, somehow reducing emissions."

https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/china-should-invest-us15bn-coal-fired-power-projects-pakistan.html

Bob Wallace

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Re: Coal
« Reply #698 on: May 08, 2017, 06:20:00 PM »
I don't understand why China is helping other countries build new coal plants when the Chinese government has stated that it intends to be a global leader in the fight against climate change.


TerryM

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Re: Coal
« Reply #699 on: May 08, 2017, 08:19:54 PM »
Agreed


Does Pakistan have huge local coal sources they insisted on using? Perhaps this was the only deal they would accept?
Still a terrible deal to make.


Terry