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What will the CT 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum be?

More than 3.5 million km2
1 (1.4%)
Between 3.25 and 3.5 million km2
0 (0%)
Between 3.0 and 3.25 million km2
4 (5.7%)
Between 2.75 and 3.0 million km2
3 (4.3%)
Between 2.5 and 2.75 million km2
3 (4.3%)
Between 2.25 and 2.5 million km2
9 (12.9%)
Between 2.0 and 2.25 million km2
14 (20%)
Between 1.75 and 2.0 million km2
15 (21.4%)
Between 1.5 and 1.75 million km2
8 (11.4%)
Between 1.25 and 1.5 million km2
3 (4.3%)
Between 1.0 and 1.25 million km2
2 (2.9%)
Between 0.75 and 1.0 million km2
6 (8.6%)
Between 0.5 and 0.75 million km2
0 (0%)
Between 0.25 and 0.5 million km2
1 (1.4%)
Between 0 and 0.25 million km2
1 (1.4%)

Total Members Voted: 67

Voting closed: June 20, 2013, 06:29:57 PM

Author Topic: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll  (Read 117699 times)

wanderer

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BornFromTheVoid

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #151 on: June 28, 2013, 03:36:35 PM »
That takes us to within 2.5 million of the 1980 minimum

I recently joined the twitter thing, where I post more analysis, pics and animations: @Icy_Samuel

Steven

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #152 on: June 28, 2013, 04:31:51 PM »
So with every region but the Beaufort on schedule to match 2012 I find much the same diagnosis from area development at the end of June as I did from May PIOMAS at the beginning. A little bit higher than 2012, with the Beaufort being the region with the extra ice.

The Canadian Archipelago is another region where more ice might survive.  The CT area of that region is now at the same level as in 2012.  But that's a false impression.  New melt ponds are forming in the Northwest passage region and are fooling the sensors.  Last year, the largest melt ponds had already drained by June 20.  That's a big lag.  It's hard to say how things will play out in that region.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 05:59:24 PM by Steven »

danp

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #153 on: June 28, 2013, 08:05:53 PM »

Is there any probability that this years melt will drift into October, even if just for a few days or a week??

No. None.

The date of minimum, after which ice area (CT Area) increases has remained largely invariant over the course of the satellite record. i.e. there is no relationship between date of minimum and area and the area at that date.

This supports the idea that the date of area minimum is set by insolation. Once the sun starts to set net energy flow is out of the ocean/ice system and into the atmosphere. No further significant melt occurs, ice formation starts once the ocean has cooled to around zero deg C.

In fact the radiation balance becomes negative earlier at high latitudes than low ones.  The statistical end of the melting season is usually characterized by a balance of freezing of the leads and open seas that have formed at higher latitudes, even as some melting is still happening at lower latitudes.  You could make an argument on that basis that the melt season should end *earlier* as the Arctic manages to melt some ice at higher latitudes each season, creating a stronger ice regrowth mechanism at earlier dates in the now-exposed high-latitude water.  Maybe that's still a possibility once we really hit a seasonally ice-free state but it sounds as though we're not there.

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #154 on: June 29, 2013, 09:15:41 AM »
In fact the radiation balance becomes negative earlier at high latitudes than low ones.  The statistical end of the melting season is usually characterized by a balance of freezing of the leads and open seas that have formed at higher latitudes, even as some melting is still happening at lower latitudes.  You could make an argument on that basis that the melt season should end *earlier* as the Arctic manages to melt some ice at higher latitudes each season, creating a stronger ice regrowth mechanism at earlier dates in the now-exposed high-latitude water.  Maybe that's still a possibility once we really hit a seasonally ice-free state but it sounds as though we're not there.

But what ever arguments we make must be constrained by observation.

Current least squares fit 1979 to 2012: -0.0376x +255.72 with an R2 of 0.0029.
Trend in the residuals from that trend: 1E-05x - 0.0034 with an R2 of 4E-10.

In other words, there is very little trend in the date of minimum, the trend itself is too small to be statistically significant and describes a negligible fraction of variance (that variance is random and can be assumed to be due to weather, not any underlying process). And the difference from the trend (residuals) also show no behaviour that is suggestive of a long term trend.

So base on the data so far, despite people's desire to believe otherwise there is no trend in the date of min in CT Area data. Given the massive changes we have seen this is telling us that it is highly unlikely that we will see such a change in the years to come.

It might seem that with a seasonally sea ice free state we will see a later date from which ice growth will recommence (the equivalent of date of minimum). This remains a popular meme amongst some amateurs studying the Arctic.

However we have dropped from minimum area of 5.3M km^2 in 1979 to 2.3M km^2 in 2012, a drop of 130%. This has entailed a much earlier melt profile, and much more open water warming. Despite this massive change in thermodynamics (much more heat to lose): the date of minimum in 2012 was half the standard deviation of the residuals away from the trend line (which is virtually flat). And the preceding years had negative residuals while 2012 was positive.

When we hit a seasonally sea ice free state (short period in Sept with no ice) it's hard to see how the date of ice regrowth will change given the lack of change so far. However once we get months of open water a later date of regrowth may start to occur.

wanderer

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #156 on: June 29, 2013, 03:51:36 PM »
Century up ?! http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/arctic.sea.ice.interactive.html

Yes. And given that 2013 saw a double century drop on 0.4877, this year is now a whopping 1.12 million km2 behind last year, the largest separation yet between the two years. Yesterday's increase--the sixth this month--was the largest since March 12.

While 2013 is back above the 8 million km2 mark, 2013 dropped below 7 million km2 on the same date (.4877).

If the rest of the melt season were to mirror exactly the behavior seen in 2009 (the year which saw the most ice lost after this date), CT SIA would bottom out at 3.17 million km2, or about 940k km2 higher than last year. Following 2012's path would render 3.53 million, and 2007's would render 3.57 million.

wanderer

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #157 on: June 29, 2013, 04:02:31 PM »
Maybe it is just another error and tomorrow we'll see another double century drop

Jim Pettit

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #158 on: June 29, 2013, 04:11:18 PM »
Maybe it is just another error and tomorrow we'll see another double century drop

I wouldn't doubt it. In fact, given that JAXA extent--which usually leads CT SIA--saw its largest drop of the year yesterday, and which has dropped by more than half a million km2 in just the past five days alone--I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see a triple century "corrective" drop in area. (Of course, with the start-and-stop way things are going this year, I wouldn't be all that surprised to see a double century  increase, either...)

Peter Ellis

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #159 on: June 29, 2013, 04:18:04 PM »
Maybe it is just another error and tomorrow we'll see another double century drop
Possibly.  Or maybe the melt ponds are draining so the apparent area goes up.  Or the clouds are clearing, meaning the "false" low concentration areas go away.

There's a reason NSIDC uses extent, which is that area measurements simply are less stable and less reliable, because concentration estimation is difficult.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #160 on: June 29, 2013, 06:33:59 PM »
There's a reason NSIDC uses extent, which is that area measurements simply are less stable and less reliable, because concentration estimation is difficult.

Well, extent compensates one problem with an even bigger one. Area can be noisy, but extent starts lying if concentration is low enough. And in case of an ice free North Pole, you'll have to accept extent is 100% wrong by definition.

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #161 on: June 29, 2013, 07:59:41 PM »
There's a reason NSIDC uses extent, which is that area measurements simply are less stable and less reliable, because concentration estimation is difficult.

Quite right. Getting worked up about day to day area changes just isn't worth it. I use area in preference because of features such as the June Cliff, which I see as significant. But I don't normally follow it day to day.

That said the current overall picture from CT Area is that, barring an amazing loss rate later in the summer, there is no chance of beating 2012, and now a lessening chance of beating 2007.

I still maintain that this is nothing to do with a 'recovery' like 2008. This is weather impacting, and the atmospheric set up for June is very weird in the context of the post 2007 years.

Artful Dodger

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #162 on: June 30, 2013, 09:51:48 AM »
Data from the active radar aboard the Canadian RadarSat2 knows for sure. Anybody want to buy the answer?  ::)
Cheers!
Lodger

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #163 on: July 01, 2013, 08:54:11 PM »
Neven/Crandles!

Not sure who's doing the pole ranges but I've just made my final 2013 prediction for the final CT Area.

~75% probability of this year being between 3.22M km^2 and 4.15M km^2.

At a mid range value of 3.68M Km^2 it's off the top of your ranges.
http://dosbat.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/june-status-part-1-ct-area.html

werther

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #164 on: July 01, 2013, 11:58:36 PM »
Hi Chris,
As I wrote in another context on this Forum 'given a continuation of the temperature track, no large wind fields nor Sunny skies and no 'Nemesis Cyclone' it might not get too bad.

So I'm with you, as my estimate has been 3.28 - 4 Mkm2 dating back to May.

A mean September minimum around 3.64 Mkm2 is to be considered a gift. Beacause its starting to be clear now that the larger part of the sea ice is picking up the specifics of annual ice.

For me, that means that a not so extreme year won't reconstitute a single cubic km of MYI.


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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #165 on: July 02, 2013, 02:13:49 AM »
I think that is way to high.  But I will probably end up wrong in this Summer of extremes.

 But I feel 90% confident it CT single say min will drop between 2.8 mil km2 and 3.0 mil km2.

It is a 2D measure, not 3D, so it will plummet later than other years in July and August.

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ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #166 on: July 02, 2013, 08:46:15 AM »
Werther,

I think purely because more ice will survive 2013 that we will see an increase in MYI (as in mainly second year ice) over the coming winter. That probably means next year will at best meet 2012. But that doesn't change the fact that we're now in a predominantly first year pack.

Unfortunately I'll have to wait for at least next year to be able to add more data to the pool which may help to tell whether we are facing a rapid crash or a tail. The weather driven failure of this year's melt invalidates any reasoning on that score, unless we still see a massive crash and my simple prediction is invalidated.

Frivolousz,

I've just presented what the numbers come out as. For this to be wrong the area loss over the rest of the melt season would have to be truly record breaking.

Neven

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #167 on: July 02, 2013, 08:58:08 AM »
I'm posting a new poll in a couple of days, so you can opt for revised predictions there. I will probably go up one or two bins myself.
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #168 on: July 02, 2013, 10:18:56 PM »
Werther,

I think purely because more ice will survive 2013 that we will see an increase in MYI (as in mainly second year ice) over the coming winter. That probably means next year will at best meet 2012. But that doesn't change the fact that we're now in a predominantly first year pack.

Unfortunately I'll have to wait for at least next year to be able to add more data to the pool which may help to tell whether we are facing a rapid crash or a tail. The weather driven failure of this year's melt invalidates any reasoning on that score, unless we still see a massive crash and my simple prediction is invalidated.

Frivolousz,

I've just presented what the numbers come out as. For this to be wrong the area loss over the rest of the melt season would have to be truly record breaking.

Although I agree breaking 2012's record (making it 3 years consecutively breaking records!) is a long shot, I expect the remainder of the melt season to emulate 2012's. Consequently, I still expect the ice area to fall below 2011's.

werther

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #169 on: July 02, 2013, 10:59:01 PM »
I think I have to clarify my exclamation  that ‘a not so extreme year won't reconstitute a single cubic km of MYI’.

Technically, you’re right of course, Chris, to claim that ‘because more ice will survive 2013 that we will see an increase in MYI’.

What I have in mind is the qualitative state of the perennial Arctic ice sheet. As a structural unity it is now reduced to 1,5 Mkm2 close to the CAA. Less than the Greenland Icesheet! Even when ’13 turns out to be relatively weak on the SIA/SIE side, the next winter is not going to provide reinforcement to this “mesh-pack”. My assumption is that forcing is so strong now that the demise of that truly perennial pack is almost irreversible.

In that sense, in 2013 the perennial Arctic ice cover is almost a reality. It depends just on weather whether the “mesh-pack” gets under 1 Mkm2. The leftovers outside this pack are rotten. No structure left.

BTW the Pole is now very near the edge. Some of us wondered where the ‘Goat’s Head’ went. From what I’ve seen through the mist is that its remains lay toppled and compressed against the dwindling mesh-pack 100-250 km SW of the Pole, ‘headed’ for Fram.

helorime

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #170 on: July 02, 2013, 11:01:03 PM »
I spent some time fiddling in photoshop, overlaying the current drop over last years that happened a few weeks earlier.  This current drop, as of today is still accelerating and at the moment is almost the same magnitude as last years, only displaced by a few weeks.  Eyeballing it if it keeps up for another couple of weeks we will be right back where we were last year.



Not sure if this will work...  Nope: didn't work. Oh well.  Based on http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_stddev_timeseries.png 

and findable here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26343744@N00/9193487665/#
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werther

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #171 on: July 03, 2013, 12:24:02 AM »
"In that sense,  in 2013 the perennial Arctic ice cover is almost a reality.

Mwah... I meant annual...

Neven

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #172 on: July 05, 2013, 10:50:15 PM »
Please continue the discussion wrt CT SIA here. And don't to forget to vote again on the new July poll.
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