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What will the CT 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum be?

More than 3.5 million km2
1 (1.4%)
Between 3.25 and 3.5 million km2
0 (0%)
Between 3.0 and 3.25 million km2
4 (5.7%)
Between 2.75 and 3.0 million km2
3 (4.3%)
Between 2.5 and 2.75 million km2
3 (4.3%)
Between 2.25 and 2.5 million km2
9 (12.9%)
Between 2.0 and 2.25 million km2
14 (20%)
Between 1.75 and 2.0 million km2
15 (21.4%)
Between 1.5 and 1.75 million km2
8 (11.4%)
Between 1.25 and 1.5 million km2
3 (4.3%)
Between 1.0 and 1.25 million km2
2 (2.9%)
Between 0.75 and 1.0 million km2
6 (8.6%)
Between 0.5 and 0.75 million km2
0 (0%)
Between 0.25 and 0.5 million km2
1 (1.4%)
Between 0 and 0.25 million km2
1 (1.4%)

Total Members Voted: 67

Voting closed: June 20, 2013, 06:29:57 PM

Author Topic: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll  (Read 117718 times)

Neven

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2013, 02:23:09 PM »
Based on what I've seen on the day-to-day UB SIC comparison yesterday and today, I think we'll see two more century breaks. But I'm pretty stunned at how much 2013 is behind in so many regions.

Even more stunned now. Not sure what I'll do with my eyeballs yet. Maybe give them the Oedipus-treatment? They deserve it.

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Jim Pettit

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2013, 03:02:15 PM »
Please keep your eyeball intact.  ;) But it is amazing, isn't it? CT SIA is today almost a million square kilometers higher than it was on Day 165 last year, and that difference is almost certain to go over a million during the next four days, a period that in 2012 saw the loss of 620k km2. However...the gap should begin narrowing after that, as in the week beginning on Day 170, 2012 lost just 418k; if that coincides with the "cliff jump" some are predicting for this year, catching up is not at all beyond the realm of possibility.

Juan C. García

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2013, 04:04:33 PM »
I am going to stay in the range 1.75-2 million km2 of SIA, that I voted in April and May. I believe that the ice is weak, and even that the melt is having a low start, I believe that we could have a great melt in the following months.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

TheUAoB

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2013, 09:01:16 PM »
I really fail to understand how anybody is taking the SIA at face value. The ice is dispersed like never before, there's no volume, area is just overestimated since few cells yet have fallen below threshold.

I also wonder at near-surface air and surface water temperatures, is it not likely the air cooled by rapidly melting ground ice?  Try a little experiment:

Take 2 glasses and 2 ice cubes.

Put an identical quantity of water at the same temperature in each glass.

Crush one ice cube and put crushed ice into a glass, place the other ice cube into the other glass.
 
Measure the temperature of the water until the ice melts.

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2013, 09:08:18 PM »
The UAOB,

I really have to disagree. CT Area is a measure that's been used for years, and as far as I'm aware has a consistent method of calculation throughout the series.

Most of the pack has thickened this year to typical thermodynamic thickness of around 2m thick, this is what's expected from basic physics and observations as the thickness that can grow from open ocean in one season. This isn't much different from last year. What is different is temperature as a result of the different atmospheric set up.

As this will be going slightly off topic I'll continue on the Short To Medium Term Discussion thread, as it's more relevant there.

See here:
http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,92.msg7473.html#msg7473
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 05:18:40 PM by ChrisReynolds »

wanderer

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2013, 12:11:29 PM »
So, finally two near-double-century breaks.

2013 is just 3-4 days behind 2012, and 2012 had a little loss-break from day 169-172, now we have day 166, so IF the trend is continuing we would catch up with 2012 on day 172.

This is an interesting outlook, how 2013 could still beat 2012:

http://arctic-news.blogspot.co.at/2013/06/arctic-sea-ice-september-2013-projections.html

wanderer

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2013, 12:13:49 PM »
Sorry, I meant 2013 is 4-5 days behind 2012.

LurkyMcLurkerson

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2013, 03:46:44 AM »
I really fail to understand how anybody is taking the SIA at face value. The ice is dispersed like never before, there's no volume, area is just overestimated since few cells yet have fallen below threshold.

I've come to think of this year as _potentially_ giving us a very good view of any major flaws going forward in the sorts of data we have available.

I'm not confident, either, that the area is giving a very good overall impression of the most relevant conditions. Seems to me that it depends on how confident we are about what data we have for thickness, among other things. More area of thin ice is, of course, meaningless area. And fractures throw a whole additional wrench at the whole thing, I have very little idea what to make of them beyond some very shallow (thin?) sorts of thoughts on exposed surface area and the like.

I tend to think that one's predictions right now will most likely tend to correspond to one's confidence in the measurements we have, in their ability to actually reflect the most relevant factors in the melting _now_, now that the ice is going through whatever its death throes will be.

I'm actually largely neutral on the quality _and current relevance_ of the data we have, not knowing enough about any of the details of these data sets to be able to judge it well. If there are major flaws there, I look forward to having those clarified, and this season has a good shot at doing that, I think.

crandles

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2013, 11:55:02 AM »
If there are major flaws there, I look forward to having those clarified, and this season has a good shot at doing that, I think.

I am not sure flaws is the right word for this. Area and extent might be fine for measuring what they purport to measure.

The impression I have is of a long lasting low causing ice dispersion and Ekman pumping. If this has a major effect of raising warm water which then melts more ice, over what timeframe does that extra melting occur?

If this is what is happening, then it is correct not a flaw for extent to be high. It is more a matter of upward heat flux being important and we are lacking measures of this aspect because it is difficult to get a good measure of this.

Maybe this year might give us a better guide to the timeframe and magnitude of extra melt from Ekman pumping.

Or maybe other aspects could be more important.

Yes, I see prospects and hope this year might help clarify. (Then again, next year could easily comes up with a different aspect that need clarifying. Ho hum at least it remains interesting.)

AndrewP

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2013, 07:33:14 AM »
Funny how this forum was all about positive feedbacks to open ocean, and the importance of an early start to the melt season. Now when we have a slow start to the melt season and the associated feedbacks, the new theory is that the ice is just so thin we're just going to drop off a cliff anyways (and never mind the fact that not only is the loss in area slower this year, thickness is also significantly greater as well).

Unbelievable that most people on this forum are predicting SIA less than last year when by every objective parameter (SIA, PIOMAS) the ice pack is much more similar to 2009 than 2012. There is not a single objective criterion for predicting less SIA than last year.

wili

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2013, 09:30:47 AM »
I think we all realize by now that the Arctic is always full of surprises. I admit to being surprised that we are still well behind last year's melt at this point, given the apparently fractured nature of the ice before melt season started. We'll see what further surprises lie in store for us in the next few weeks.

By the way, do you have a particular prediction at this point that you would care to make, AP?
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jdallen

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2013, 09:44:30 AM »
Unbelievable that most people on this forum are predicting SIA less than last year when by every objective parameter (SIA, PIOMAS) the ice pack is much more similar to 2009 than 2012. There is not a single objective criterion for predicting less SIA than last year.

I beg to differ with you AndrewP.  There are a number of criteria, quite objective, for prediction less SIA, even though my own prediction is somewhat more modest.

1) Less MYI by a factor of 20%  from last year.

2) Thinner FYI, overall, by between 5-10%, from what I can glean from various sources.

3) The *entire* ice caps' massive loss of structural integrity

4) Massive early loss of snow cover in the high arctic, both across Siberia, and Northern Canada, permitting earlier and sharper influxes of continental heat, particularly along the margins of the ocean (case in point:  25C to *33*C temps in Alaska.  If you follow Koeln's temperature plots, you'd see most of Eastern Siberia is not far off from that.

I could go on.

SO, I'm afraid your base assertion fails.  Lots of smart people here have plenty of good, solid evidence to support predictions of massive ice loss.
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ggelsrinc

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2013, 10:54:44 AM »
Funny how this forum was all about positive feedbacks to open ocean, and the importance of an early start to the melt season. Now when we have a slow start to the melt season and the associated feedbacks, the new theory is that the ice is just so thin we're just going to drop off a cliff anyways (and never mind the fact that not only is the loss in area slower this year, thickness is also significantly greater as well).

Unbelievable that most people on this forum are predicting SIA less than last year when by every objective parameter (SIA, PIOMAS) the ice pack is much more similar to 2009 than 2012. There is not a single objective criterion for predicting less SIA than last year.

The criterion I've seen most people use is the quality of the arctic sea ice. They point to the fragmentation event and the persistent cyclone acting on sea ice with low MYI. It's possible for the systems that measure arctic sea ice to show increases while the sea ice is behaving in ways that will cause it to quickly melt away in the near future. The objective criterion would be sea ice presently exists in areas where it's all melted out in recent years. That's why the focus is on the CAB.

I'm still predicting slightly less CT area than last year, but I hope the fragmentation event was early enough to slow down the melt season. I'm not going to be disappointed if the CT area is more than the record minimum.   

Neven

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2013, 11:05:07 AM »
I don't believe last year's records will get broken, but I've been wrong about things in the Arctic more often than I have been right. Nothing in the Arctic is a dead certainty.
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Chuck Yokota

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2013, 11:49:32 AM »
I had voted for 1.75 to 2.00 Mkm^2.  I am not particularly interested in the current total area or current daily changes.  I figure the peripheral seas have become basically annual ice, and will melt out sometime during the melt season regardless.  What will matter in the end is the ice in the CAB.  That ice is thin and vulnerable, and a lot of it will melt out.  How much will depend on the weather; but I think it can't avoid breaking last year's record. 

Neven

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2013, 01:09:36 PM »
And another century break, 143K, fourth in a row. CAPIE shot down 5 percent points in 5 days and is now only behind 2007 and 2012.

This year is still trailing 2012 by 932K, but 2012 will have three slow days now, with just a drop of around 50K.
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2013, 01:11:27 PM »
(EDIT: I see I inadvertently cross-posted with Neven, and actually repeated a few things he'd already mentioned. Apologies....)

CT SIA dropped another 143k km2 yesterday, the fourth century break in a row for a four-day total decrease of 662k km2. Also of note, the negative anomaly is now greater than a million km2 for the first time since 26 Jan.

2013 still lags behind 2012 by more than 930k km2, but a one-week lull of sorts began on this day last year, so if 2013 continues to fall as it has been doing, that gap should narrow considerably over the coming days.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 01:29:35 PM by Jim Pettit »

crandles

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2013, 02:17:36 PM »
And we have a 349k day!

Not only that, if follows two double century days bringing total to 784k for 3 days. The anomaly is now highest for over 2.5 years.

Err, this is all increases for Antarctica. (Sorry.)

frankendoodle

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2013, 06:07:29 PM »
I find two things interesting about this poll:

1) Most of the postings on this forum have seriously doubted 2013 breaking any records. The prevailing thought seems to be "will beat 2007 but not 2012" with some naysayers being far more pessimistic. Yet 3/4 of us voted for a tying/record breaking daily minimum for 2013. Hmmm...

2) Neven chose to close the poll at the beginning of the Summer Solstice :)

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2013, 06:22:03 PM »
Frankendoodle,

There is no issue here. I, along with many others voted to keep what we'd considered previously, before seeing how June turned out. I think you'll find that most of the votes have been cast in the first week of June, before the June Cliff.

It is quite possible that the condition of the ice will mean we will see 2012's June loss smashed, and the delayed start wiped out. I voted 1.75 to 2M, more recently I've said I agree with Neven, that we'll probably beat 2007, but not 2012. In view of current losses and the state of the ice between the Pole and Laptev, my current stance is that I don't know what the outcome will be.

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2013, 07:22:39 PM »
And another century break, 143K, fourth in a row. CAPIE shot down 5 percent points in 5 days and is now only behind 2007 and 2012.

This year is still trailing 2012 by 932K, but 2012 will have three slow days now, with just a drop of around 50K.

In my calculations I use the baseline 1980 to 1999 to calculate anomalies. 2012's June Cliff ended on 18 June 2012, from which date the anomalies levelled (losses were similar to the baseline average). The latest CT Area data is to 18 June 2013. In other words, if the current trend of losses sustains 2013 may be about to catch up on 2012. Against this it should be noted that in the baseline average seasonal cycle there is an inflection to greater rate of loss around this time, so anomalies may be about to level out, even if a high rate of daily loss continues.


jdallen

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2013, 08:13:49 PM »
In my calculations I use the baseline 1980 to 1999 to calculate anomalies. 2012's June Cliff ended on 18 June 2012, from which date the anomalies levelled (losses were similar to the baseline average). The latest CT Area data is to 18 June 2013. In other words, if the current trend of losses sustains 2013 may be about to catch up on 2012. Against this it should be noted that in the baseline average seasonal cycle there is an inflection to greater rate of loss around this time, so anomalies may be about to level out, even if a high rate of daily

Excellent graph, Chris. It suggests to me that there is still plenty of time for the melt to reach or pass 2007/2012 levels.
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Anne

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2013, 08:32:27 PM »
Just to lower the tone, Paddy Power is offering odds of 11/8 on Arctic Sea Ice reaching record minimum extent (as defined by WMO) in 2013.

Richard Rathbone

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2013, 08:53:34 PM »
Clearly they aren't using Neven's polls to set their odds, or it would be something like 5/11 rather than 11/8.

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2013, 10:41:46 PM »
Excellent graph, Chris. It suggests to me that there is still plenty of time for the melt to reach or pass 2007/2012 levels.

I'm not convinced that the rapid drops will continue for long enough. To me it's a more feasible scenario that we'll hit a levelling, but continued losses throughout the melt season may be enough for 2013 to give 2012 a real challenge.

Anne

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2013, 10:58:42 PM »
I was surprised that Paddy Power was running a book on it. He's famous for wacky bets (eg Richard Dawkins to be Pope @ 666/1). I don't know much about betting, but understand that odds on something recherché like this are going to be governed as much by bets laid as by an educated forecast. I'm curious to know who's been laying bets on this. It boggles the mind, when you stop to think.

ETA: shows how much I know about betting. The more bets laid, the more the odds shift to reflect the punters' choice. The fewer bets laid, the more likely the odds are to reflect Paddy Power's information. Hmm. Still, so many questions.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 11:07:04 PM by Anne »

jdallen

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2013, 11:10:28 PM »
I'm not convinced that the rapid drops will continue for long enough. To me it's a more feasible scenario that we'll hit a levelling, but continued losses throughout the melt season may be enough for 2013 to give 2012 a real challenge.

Just so.  Based on your data I would expect a similar leveling. Colder than usual temperatures not withstanding, I'm thinking similar amounts of energy have still been "attacking" the ice.  That stretch from Svalbard to Laptev is now being exposed to peak insolation with clearer skies, and from what Wipneus and A-team have been posting, there actually may be more open water there than even the models have been showing.


This year may level out lower than last. The ice will tell us on August first, I expect.
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LurkyMcLurkerson

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2013, 12:05:15 AM »
Funny how this forum was all about positive feedbacks to open ocean, and the importance of an early start to the melt season. Now when we have a slow start to the melt season and the associated feedbacks, the new theory is that the ice is just so thin we're just going to drop off a cliff anyways (and never mind the fact that not only is the loss in area slower this year, thickness is also significantly greater as well).

Unbelievable that most people on this forum are predicting SIA less than last year when by every objective parameter (SIA, PIOMAS) the ice pack is much more similar to 2009 than 2012. There is not a single objective criterion for predicting less SIA than last year.

To be honest, I've been wondering to myself all sorts of things about how all sorts of factors work with each other for the whole way through. I don't really make predictions on any of it, because frankly, I'm very new to this -- I have some science background, but I only started really paying much attention to this stuff at any depth last year, and I haven't done the serious digging I would have to do to make an informed guess. But even so, my personal view at the beginning of this season and still now is that there is a _huge_ range of estimate this year that is reasonable and can be defended, because we've hit the point of ice loss IMO where factors we hadn't previously really seen play a big role are much likelier to be important. That's true this year, and next year, and...

Which means, on the depressing end, that we're basically all bickering over whether the patient will die quickly via heart failure, or die slowly via sepsis, and whether a slightly better blood test trumps a failing kidney for today.

But also means, on the upside, that we'll get to watch to see what of these factors play out how, and maybe come away with a much better understanding of the details. Which sure can't hurt as we go into the phase of rapidly losing other ice around the globe.

Personally, I find it rather interesting that many comments on the topic have gone toward calling others out on their assessments. I understand wanting to keep things here in the realm of well-reasoned, but the fact is, nobody really knows what the heck this is going to look like in a month. We've never done this. We don't know how it plays out. Predictions are a useful tool for testing one's ideas, but they're often going to be wrong for the right reasons, or right for the wrong ones, so the final number isn't really the point.

And arguments to that effect that are based on nothing more than a late start or a date comparison are no better than any others. We have no idea how important that is in comparison to other factors. We are babes in the woods.

I, at least, have never expressed an opinion on what will be left, because I don't have a strong one right now. I will keep viewing and thinking with genuine curiosity, and go back to lurk mode.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2013, 04:28:03 AM »
Thanks for that, Lurky.

I'd like to see more attention paid to the mechanics, the physics of the melt and less on guessing the weather.

I'm really looking forward to finding out what the CB ice pack looks like and how it behaves once the persistent storm fades away.  We're observing something that humans have never seen before.  Why should we even start to believe that we can predict the details of a year to year melt?

James Lovejoy

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2013, 05:35:55 AM »
My guess is for just more than 2012, 2.25 to 2.50 MKm2.

We're still way behind 2012, but some of it is in areas we can expect to melt out.  I see a huge uncertainty here.  Most because we're predicting weather, and how much gets flushed through the strait, but a lot because I don't have a real good handle on what the ice is like, is it several million k2 of sluree, or several thousand 100+ km floes?

I'm seeing maximum at 3.0-3.25, but minimum, with just the wrong circumstances under 1 million.

James Lovejoy

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2013, 05:37:58 AM »
Oops!  that sluree, should be slurpee.  sorry

Neven

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2013, 09:33:17 AM »
James, you can edit your comments by clicking the 'Modify' button in your comment.

I think I'm seeing some big changes between the UB SIC maps for the 18th and 19th. I wonder if that will be reflected in the SIA numbers. And there's still no open water in the Beaufort yet.
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crandles

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2013, 04:43:51 PM »
Just to lower the tone, Paddy Power is offering odds of 11/8 on Arctic Sea Ice reaching record minimum extent (as defined by WMO) in 2013.

There is also global average temperature bets.

Global Average Temperature
Anomaly defined as the °C above long-term average of 14.0 °C. Temperature Anomaly provided by The World Meteorological Organization (WMO). PP decision final.

WMO website says there are three temperature records.

Intrade used to do bets which was punters offering and accepting bets against other punters. I can see how that works. Paddy Power as the best expert on likely global temperatures seems unlikely so I am trying to clarify which record - waiting for email. Shame I/experts can't short the options that have no chance on paddy power.

I'd expect experts to be able to wait until Paddy Power odds are out of date then come in with some bets and Paddy Power should lose money to those experts. Whether they recoup that through people who do don't do enough research before betting is something I cannot guess at.

Neven

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2013, 05:02:13 PM »
CT hasn't been updated yet today...

edit: it's back up, but no new numbers as of yet...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 06:02:23 PM by Neven »
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2013, 06:28:55 PM »
CTarea: -127k

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2013, 06:40:50 PM »
Puzzled, I have -127 for day 2013.4755. Yesterday's update was 2013.4603, and that's a drop of 0.143.

EDIT

Really puzzled.

Yesterday's data now uploaded, and it is -127 for 2013.463. Now 749 from 2012.

How come some people can get it before others? I checked twice previously once before writing what's above the EDIT, and once before clicking to post. Yet the latest data has only just appeared.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 06:59:55 PM by ChrisReynolds »

Neven

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2013, 07:07:50 PM »
Yes, I also had to push F5 a couple of times to see what Wipneus had already reported.
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2013, 07:08:36 PM »
Quote
How come some people can get it before others?

You don't say how you get it. A browser may cache it, don't do that.

I am using the command line (wget) to check the file mod time, and if newer than the one I have retrieve it.

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2013, 07:21:05 PM »
I use either Chrome or IE to access the page and copy the data into Excel. Maybe it is browser cache - must look for a setting to disable.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #89 on: June 20, 2013, 07:45:35 PM »
Shift-F5 to force a reload bypassing the browser cache.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #90 on: June 20, 2013, 09:16:12 PM »
Unbelievable that most people on this forum are predicting SIA less than last year when by every objective parameter (SIA, PIOMAS) the ice pack is much more similar to 2009 than 2012. There is not a single objective criterion for predicting less SIA than last year.

I beg to differ with you AndrewP.  There are a number of criteria, quite objective, for prediction less SIA, even though my own prediction is somewhat more modest.

1) Less MYI by a factor of 20%  from last year.

2) Thinner FYI, overall, by between 5-10%, from what I can glean from various sources.

3) The *entire* ice caps' massive loss of structural integrity

4) Massive early loss of snow cover in the high arctic, both across Siberia, and Northern Canada, permitting earlier and sharper influxes of continental heat, particularly along the margins of the ocean (case in point:  25C to *33*C temps in Alaska.  If you follow Koeln's temperature plots, you'd see most of Eastern Siberia is not far off from that.

I could go on.

SO, I'm afraid your base assertion fails.  Lots of smart people here have plenty of good, solid evidence to support predictions of massive ice loss.

Your points are false.

Points 1+2
PIOMAS is significantly higher than last year indicating that the ice IS thicker. PIOMAS isn't perfect, but the increase compared to last year is large enough to be confident that the ice is thicker.

Point 3 .. not sure what you mean by this.

Point 4
Also false. N. hemisphere snow cover is 25% greater than last year at this time (over 2 million sq km).


The final minimum will be primarily governed by 3 factors:

1) weather (which is unpredictable)

2) thickness (which is greater than last year)

3) early season area loss an initiation of positive feedbacks (there is much more area than last year at this time)


Thus, all relevant factors point to a higher minimum than last year. Even if you go searching for irrelevant minor factors like snowcover in AK, there is still no reason to predict a lower minimum than last year.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2013, 09:41:50 PM »
Shift-F5 to force a reload bypassing the browser cache.
Thanks Peter.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2013, 10:00:52 PM »
Your points are false.

Points 1+2
PIOMAS is significantly higher than last year indicating that the ice IS thicker. PIOMAS isn't perfect, but the increase compared to last year is large enough to be confident that the ice is thicker.


PIOMAS, difference between May avg for 2012 and 2013 (2013-2013)



Over much of the pack in May there is a significantly thinner region in 2013. In the region between Laptev and the pole the ice has been thinned by being dispersed and melted in the recent storm impacts. So in the main region ice was thicker it very probably isn't now.

Furthermore examination of thickness categories in PIOMAS does not support the claim that the ice is thicker this year.



So although volume is higher the ice thickness profile is more like 2011, but this year doesn't have the MYI intrusions seen in 2011 and 2012.

Furthermore June CT Area loss up to where 2012 started to follow the average seasonal cycle (i.e. non exceptional losses) is only beaten by 2012.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5489/9084621005_b6ebe6ca73_o.png

And the detail of CT Area anomalies indicates the same sort of precipitous June area loss that is typical of recent record/near record years.



Frankly I don't think a full assessment of the available data is much help either way. But in view of what I see in MODIS/HYCOM/PIOMAS I wouldn't bet against an even greater rate of loss in the next 6 weeks or so.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #93 on: June 20, 2013, 10:34:19 PM »
@ChrisReynolds - thank you for so directly addressing AndrewP's questioning of my points 1&2


Point 3 .. not sure what you mean by this.


In this, I'm addressing the physical integrity - think strength, coherence and resistance to fracturing -  of the ice in the arctic.  Since March, even earlier, there have been a series of fracturing events which have 1) separated what has been land-fast ice from its holds all across the arctic, but most specifically across the CAA. and 2) broken up what are typically relatively coherent areas of ice (think 20-30K surface area) into myriads of smaller ones.  A clear example of this can be seen if you look in lance-modis detail.  Here's R05C0 from the 17th:

http://lance-modis.eosdis.nasa.gov/imagery/subsets/?subset=Arctic_r05c03.2013170.terra

Instead of a clean surface, over most of this extent you have a jumble of smaller floes, few of which are more than 1-2K in area, and most of which are very small, surrounded by a web of open leads.  Even looking at the area with higher concentration to the left, even there you can see a network of closed leads and cracks, which subdivide the extent into far smaller, less structurally coherent segments. This becomes abundantly clear if you look at some more recent, cloud-free images of R03C04 and R04C03, both of which are areas adjacent to the pole, and are down to close to 50% concentration.

This implies a couple of things.  First, that the ice is weak, FYI, and more vulnerable to heating.  Second, that given a shock, or just separation during the natural course of seasonal melt, it will separate into smaller sections than usual, each of which will be more vulnerable to heat. 


Point 4
Also false. N. hemisphere snow cover is 25% greater than last year at this time (over 2 million sq km).


*Where* are you getting the 2Million SQ KM figure?

http://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_gif/ARCHIVE/NHem/2013/ims2013170.gif

Rutgers shows May snow cover was 2.8 million SQ KM *less* than the 1981-2010 mean, and only about 160,000 SQ KM more than May 2012.  I can't find the 2013 June numbers yet, but news I've read is that it has declined sharply below average, and most recent years.

http://climate.rutgers.edu/snowcover/table_rankings.php?ui_set=1
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2013, 10:07:48 AM »
The weekly rutgers numbers show that for the most recent week (week 22) the snow cover was 10.8 million sq km as opposed to 8.6 for the same week last year.

Chris, PIOMAS as a whole shows there is greater volume than last year. This is indisputable. While much of this increased thickness may be located on the periphery of the Beaufort, Laptev, ESB, Chukchi, Barents, and Kara seas, this will only further retard the loss of area over the next few weeks and delay the initiation of albedo feedbacks.

As has been pointed out so frequently on this forum, the volume of ice lost from this time of year until minimum remains nearly constant. It stands to reason that there will be something like 25% more volume at minimum this year than last.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2013, 11:24:50 AM »
The weekly rutgers numbers show that for the most recent week (week 22) the snow cover was 10.8 million sq km as opposed to 8.6 for the same week last year.

Chris, PIOMAS as a whole shows there is greater volume than last year. This is indisputable. While much of this increased thickness may be located on the periphery of the Beaufort, Laptev, ESB, Chukchi, Barents, and Kara seas, this will only further retard the loss of area over the next few weeks and delay the initiation of albedo feedbacks.

As has been pointed out so frequently on this forum, the volume of ice lost from this time of year until minimum remains nearly constant. It stands to reason that there will be something like 25% more volume at minimum this year than last.

Last year also lost 4.36 million sq km in the two weeks following week 22 and 4.37 was lost in 2011.

http://climate.rutgers.edu/snowcover/table_area.php?ui_set=0

Counting snow cover on GIS is meaningless.

Kara has a lot of sea ice left, but that should melt out. Beaufort is the big unknown, because it's hard to say how much CAB will move sea ice there. You will also notice that land area by Kara is snow covered.

If the sun starts to shine, that sea ice can go fast. There wasn't evidence of much drift the last time I checked.

Last year had 6 days of sea ice in the 8 millions and 11 days in the 7 millions and 6 millions. We are on the 3 day of the 8 millions and have 8,595,132 sq km. 25 days of melt could easily catch up with 2012. It looks to me like the melt is 4 days behind 2012. The arctic ocean lost a lot of heat in the fragmentation event and had the melt delayed with PAC clouds. 


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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2013, 02:35:29 PM »
Small upward tick of 2k.
Big jumps in the Beaufort sea and Canadian Archipelago area being balanced by small losses in many other regions it seems.
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2013, 03:08:02 PM »
Chris, I hope you don't mind that I posted your PIOMAS/Thickness graphic on the Climate Change blog at Weather Underground. I credited you and posted a link to dobat and ASIB. If it's a problem just let me know and I'll take it down.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2013, 03:24:22 PM »
When is the current Alaska heat wave going to start affecting the ice on the Chukchi and Beaufort Seas?

http://www.climatecentral.org/blogs/all-time-heat-records-broken-in-alaska-heat-wave-to-continue-16131

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: June poll
« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2013, 06:11:38 PM »
Chris, I hope you don't mind that I posted your PIOMAS/Thickness graphic on the Climate Change blog at Weather Underground. I credited you and posted a link to dobat and ASIB. If it's a problem just let me know and I'll take it down.

It's all public domain, feel free to use if you find it useful. I don't even expect credit, I just ask that it be made clear that the base data is from the PIOMAS team, but the subsequent calculations/processing used to make those images is not done by the PIOMAS team.