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JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #600 on: January 15, 2017, 04:49:19 PM »
Yes!  This is generally a good discussion now.

While Martin is very passionate in his 'bias' towards Clinton I still say it is misplaced and (sorry to say) fundamentally misinformed.  He is choosing one faction of the oligarchy over another because the narrative on the one he supports tugs on more of his subconscious triggers than the narrative of the other one. But it is just succumbing to being manipulated.  One needs to fight this effect every second that they are reading the propaganda being pushed by the faction who controls the media outlet they are currently listening to. 

But lets pull away from the secondary issues of Trump/Clinton/Putin for a moment (I'll come back to them below), which are so completely overtaken by the fake news (commonly known as propaganda), and hit at the core of the discussion.

Courtesy of ASLR:

Quote
With a world of hurt coming within a few decades, you need to pick your poison: Populists (Team Trump, etc.) or globalism (WEF), or you could just fiddle while Rome burns.

This is dead wrong I would say.  The problem with this statement is that its framed as a binary nature decision which completely obscures the situation.  Globalism is utterly and totally dependent on a growing per capita energy supply which has a high EROEI (this is the foundation of wealth).  Needless to say we are well past the peak of that situation and it is not returning via greatly expanded fossil fuel production (black BAU) nor can the green BAU provide it via renewable technologies (at least in the timeframe still allocated to us).  We are not as rich as we used to be and we are going to get poorer.   Less per capita wealth is a given with a growing population and declining resources.  So globalization is dying and will continue to decline as we progress into the deeper stages of collapse.  So strike that phrase from the quote.

Now populism, which is clearly growing globally at a rapid pace and at which Team Trump is hardly the first to the post, is a symptom of the declining high EROEI energy and, of course, the contraction in economic prospects for a large percentage of the global civilization.  This is another standard effect of societal/economic collapse.  It always happens this way.  And why?

Because the most important thing to all humans where ever they live is economic and military/personal security.  Numbers 1 and 2 in all human societies and nothing else is close enough to matter if 1 and 2 are not present or if the populace comes to think that 1 and 2 are in question (this is where propaganda is so effective).  These two items are the greatest subconscious triggers that exist.  When societies are rich and no one in general is concerned about 1 and 2 then we allow the other items of identity social and political natures to flourish.  It is easy to discern in this dynamic the fundamental flaws of the various political strategies being used by those fighting the rise of populism around the world.  When one is on the wrong side of such a dynamic it is going to be very hard to succeed or win elections.

This is the basis of the argument I made in the earlier post about how quickly this organized attempt to crush the Trump presidency could go wrong.  If it succeeds it overthrows what little is left of the democratic system in the US as it allows the Deep State (the oligarchy) to eliminate any vestige of a system of laws structuring how the country is run (whether one likes how that structure is formed or not one has to work within it to change it or there is no legitimacy left).  So.  Overthrow the government and you have not just made progress towards collapse you have made the first of the big steps down into the abyss.  It cannot be taken back.

That being said this path we are currently on is unlikely to be altered and what I described above is very likely to eventually happen anyway.  Collapse hits directly at the economic and military/personal security and pretty much everyone will give up personal rights and freedoms in a heartbeat to save their families and them selves.  This is why Putin is so popular in Russia (he really is to an extent far beyond what any US president has ever known) as he is perceived to have saved Russia from being overwhelmed by the US and the West in their attempts to subjugate the Russian peoples.  This attempt has been a clear and obvious goal of the Empire for a long time. 

That Putin responds to Trumps indication that he wants to deemphasize this subjugation and emphasize economic ties plays well.  It is clearly in the interests of both countries and the people that live in them.  Not to mention everyone everywhere else also.  Defang the thrust of empire (which is going away anyway) and emphasize sounder economic goals and you slow the degradation of civilization and gain some time.  This makes for a huge heartache in that faction of the oligopoly which makes its wealth from the response to the narrative based around the demonizing of those entities who are not yet subjugated to the empire.  That subjugation is essential to the maintenance of the empire as it is completely dependent on the flow of wealth from the colonies to the center.  As we are tapping out the sources of wealth in the global South (as it is phrased) we must find other sources of wealth.  After the fall of the Soviet Union the empire poured its minions into Russia and the new countries formed from the USSR and immediately set up loan structures and supported the shift of state assets into the hands of local oligarchs who would help funnel this new source of wealth towards the west.  It worked will for a time but it was destroying Russia and and the people of Russia could see this happening.  Enter the dominance of 1 and 2 above and you have created a situation ripe for the rise of a populist - Putin. 

A similar situation has occurred in the US where the oligarchy has arranged through its owned politicians (essentially all national level politicians fit this description) and set up a tax, labor and capitalist system which has funneled almost all the wealth to the very top. Thus creating a situation ripe for the rise of a populist - Trump.  You reap what you sow.

By any reasonable measure Russia is an authoritarian capitalist state.  And people there are largely satisfied with that situation as it has improved their economic and personal security.  The US is also largely an authoritarian capitalist state (we have much better and deeper monitoring of our population than the Russians do theirs) and our population is moderately supporting currently but support is drifting lower as our economic security is clearly shrinking for most of our population.  And on top of that the political face of the main faction of the oligopoly is demonizing countries like Russia and China in order to try and reverse the drift down in support for how the country is ran.  This is creating a really dangerous situation as such actions frequently lead to war between the 'supposed' antagonists.  Needless to say militarily and economically squeezing Russia  and threatening their national security as the US is doing can go wildly wrong.  If it does that also precipitates and giant step down into the abyss of collapse.  The Great Game of global dominance and strategy has run its course - except that those who's power and wealth depend on it won't let is go.

Back to the big picture.

Globalization is a dead man walking.  A wide expansion of global affluence is in the same boat.  The Empire (being the US and its complicit partners like the EU).  We are past the peak wealth generated by cheap energy and we are burning through the worlds resources by being so far beyond the global carrying capacity.  We are continuing to rapidly grow the population (by May this year we will hit 7.5 billion people) which requires the consumption of additional resources and pumps additional greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere. Climate change is getting bad, it is going to get a lot worse and our actions are highly unlikely to do anything but contribute to this situation.  Eventually our ability to produce enough food will collide with the shrinking global capacity to support us.  Then hell will break loose.

The world is going to shrink back to civilizational structures which were standard before we became wealthy.  Sovereign states will deal in limited terms with other states.  Conflicts between regional actors will become more common again while global conflict will decline.  Powerful countries will use their power to steal as much from others as they can as long as they can (with the US being the dominant country to do this).  It is survival afterall.  A diminution of personal rights (look at what has happened in the US over the last 20 years) and restrictions on freedoms.  A heavy emphasis on security and survival.  Immigrants, and there will be hundreds of millions of them, will not be welcome anywhere eventually and force will be used to enforce such.  Your world is going to shrink and the folks you want the deepest and closest ties to are your family, neighbors, village, town, city, county, and state. In that order.  Right or wrong we have always lived or died with that and we will in the future as well.

This I believe is an unavoidable future directly as a result of our inability to overcome our basic human natures.  I have been an advocate for a managed collapse (degrowth if you like) while fully recognizing our inability to make decisions along those lines.  But I still see in the above situation that this is the only path left to us to avoid the 'worst" (not anywhere near all) of the consequences of a collapsing civilization. 

Well that is a stream of consciousness to start the day. I am sorry if it is a little disjointed as I write here pretty much off the top of my head.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #601 on: January 15, 2017, 06:25:17 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Senate Intel chiefs promise investigation of Trump-Russia ties as House Democrats accuse FBI director of stonewalling".  Let the bipartisan Congressional investigations begin.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/01/13/democrats-accuse-fbi-director-of-stonewalling-on-trump-russia-ties-as-more-call-for-him-to-step-down/?utm_term=.4ef759a1f91d

Extract: "Chairman Richard Burr (R-N.C.) and ranking member Mark Warner (D-Va.) said that their investigation, announced on Tuesday, would review “any intelligence regarding links between Russia and individuals associated with political campaigns” — a scope that includes allegations of ties between president-elect Donald J. Trump’s campaign and the Russian government."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #602 on: January 15, 2017, 06:27:41 PM »
Courtesy of ASLR:

Quote
With a world of hurt coming within a few decades, you need to pick your poison: Populists (Team Trump, etc.) or globalism (WEF), or you could just fiddle while Rome burns.

The linked article is entitled: "Quotes That Can be Used to Resist Donald Trump’s “Oval Office Tyranny” in 2017"

http://www.globalresearch.ca/quotes-that-can-be-used-to-resist-donald-trumps-oval-office-tyranny-in-2017/5565047

Extract: "We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. – H. L. Mencken (Baltimore Sun 26 July 1920)
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. – Voltaire
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished – unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. — Voltaire
A nation can survive its fools – even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor — he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation — he works secretly and unknown to undermine the pillars of a city — he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared. – Cicero (42 B.C.)
Fascism should rightly be called corporatism as it is a merger of state and corporate power. — Benito Mussolini
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State. — Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Germany’s Minister of Propaganda and Public Enlightenment
The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have (hidden) owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls. They got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying. Lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want. They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork… It’s a big club and you ain’t in it. You and I are not in the big club… The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice… Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on… It’s called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. — George Carlin
If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. — Thomas Jefferson 
 Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. – Benjamin Franklin
Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day. – President Theodore Roosevelt, April 19, 1906.
The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power… Among us today a concentration of private power without equal in history is growing. – President Franklin D. Roosevelt
We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.  This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications… In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. — President Dwight D. Eisenhower in his televised farewell speech (1961)
Those who make peaceful change impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. – President  John F. Kennedy
We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we do about peace – more about killing than we do about living. — WWII General Omar Bradley
I am sick and tired of war.  Its glory is all moonshine.  It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.  War is hell. – Civil War General William Tecumseh Sherman
No one ever became poor underestimating the intelligence of the American consumer. — H. L. Mencken
 …the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. – H. L. Mencken (1922)
When a candidate for public office faces the voters he does not face men of sense; he faces a mob of men whose chief distinguishing mark is the fact that they are quite incapable of weighing ideas, or even of comprehending any save the most elemental — men whose whole thinking is done in terms of emotion, and whose dominant emotion is dread of what they cannot understand. So confronted, the candidate must either bark with the pack or be lost… All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. — H. L. Mencken - Baltimore Sun (26 July 1920)
It also gives us a very special, secret pleasure to see how unaware the people around us are of what is really happening to them.”– Adolf Hitler
 What good fortune for those in power that the people do not think. — Adolf Hitler
Through clever and constant application of propaganda people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise. — Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf 1923)
The people want wholesome dread. They want to fear something. They want someone to frighten them and make them shudderingly submissive. — Ernst Rohm, Hitler’s chief of the SA
The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it. — Joseph Mengele, MD, “Angel of Death” at Auschwitz
Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who COUNT the votes decide everything. — Joseph Stalin
It’s dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. — Voltaire
We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we cannot have both. — Justice Louis D. Brandeis
Few of us can easily surrender our belief that society must somehow make sense. The thought that the State has lost its mind and is punishing so many innocent people is intolerable. And so the evidence has to be internally denied. – Arthur Miller
The system is bankrupt when humanity shrinks from recognizing that it is in the process of destroying itself. The enormous expenditure of energy, scientific sophistication and wealth on the military is the main cause of poverty, inflation and despair in the world. — Petra Kelly (Fighting For Hope)
It’s ridiculous to talk about freedom in a society dominated by huge corporations. What kind of freedom is there inside a corporation? They’re totalitarian institutions. You take orders from above and maybe give them to people below you. There’s about as much freedom as under Stalinism. – Noam Chomsky"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #603 on: January 15, 2017, 07:04:00 PM »
As a follow-on to my last post, the linked article is entitled: "Quotes That Can be Used to Resist Donald Trump’s “Oval Office Tyranny” in 2017"

http://www.globalresearch.ca/quotes-that-can-be-used-to-resist-donald-trumps-oval-office-tyranny-in-2017/5565047

Extract: "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. — George Orwell
If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. – Henry A. Wallace
A fascist is one whose lust for money or power is combined with such an intensity of intolerance toward those of other races, parties, classes, religions, cultures, regions or nations as to make him ruthless in his use of deceit or violence to attain his ends. – Henry Wallace
Man and fascism cannot co-exist. If fascism conquers, man will cease to exist and there will remain only man-like creatures that have undergone an internal transformation. But if man, who is endowed with reason and kindness, should conquer, then Fascism must perish, and those who have submitted to it will once again become people. – Vasily Grossman (Life and Fate)
The world is…galloping into a new transnational dystopia. This development has not been properly recognized outside of national security circles. It has been hidden by secrecy, complexity and scale. The internet, our greatest tool of emancipation, has been transformed into the most dangerous facilitator of totalitarianism we have ever seen. The internet is a threat to human civilization. These transformations have come about silently, because those who know what is going on work in the global surveillance industry and have no incentives to speak out. Left to its own trajectory, within a few years, global civilization will be a postmodern surveillance dystopia, from which escape for all but the most skilled individuals will be impossible. In fact, we may already be there. While many writers have considered what the internet means for global civilization, they are wrong. They are wrong because they do not have the sense of perspective that direct experience brings. They are wrong because they have never met the enemy.– Julian Assange (Cypherpunks: Freedom and the Future of the Internet)
The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who during times of great moral crisis maintained their neutrality. – Dante
Shamefully, the decaying Democratic Party works to block millions of voters from having a choice of progressive third-party candidates. No country in the Western world places more obstacles to third-party and independent candidates getting on the ballot than the United States. Democrats and Republicans built this exclusionary duopoly. As a result, major redirections and reforms, often supported by a popular majority, are excluded from electoral arenas. Without a competitive democracy, our political system cannot attract better candidates. A political monoculture with safe, gerrymandered incumbents serving myopic commercial interests is systematically undemocratic. It helps explain why the Democratic Party has been unable to defend this country from the worst Republican Party in history at the congressional and state levels. – Ralph Nader
All great truth is dealt with in three ways: First it is ridiculed; then it is violently opposed; and finally it is accepted as self-evident. – Arthur Schopenhauer
It seems to me that the tellers of unwelcome truths (the poets, the prophets, the heretics, the whistle-blowers and the knowledgeable exposers of conspiracies) are dealt with in six ways:
1) First, they are ignored; 2) Second, they are ridiculed; 3) Third, they are threatened with ostracization, persecution, imprisonment or execution; 4) Fourth, they are ostracized, persecuted, imprisoned or executed (physically, psychologically or spiritually); 5) Fifth, their truths may be accepted as self-evident and then, 6) Sixth, the truths of these courageous prophets are then co-opted by the tyrants, the politically powerful, the police state, the wealthy elite and/or the ruthless, amoral corporate powers,  who may even build statues and declare federal holidays to honor the now safely dead truth-teller. – G. G. Kohls, amateur philosopher, “plagiarizing” Schopenhauer
Not all conservatives are stupid people, but I have found that most stupid people are conservative. – John Stuart Mill
Certified lunatics are shut up because of their proneness to violence when their pretensions are questioned; the uncertified variety are given the control of powerful armies and can inflict death and disaster upon all sane men within their reach. — Bertrand Russell
The people never give up their liberties except under some delusion. – Edmund Burke
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. – Edward Abbey
Fifty-one percent of a nation can establish a totalitarian regime, suppress minorities and still remain democratic. – Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
– Sinclair Lewis
What Christians have got to do is take back this country, one precinct at a time, one neighborhood at a time and one state at a time. I honestly believe that in my lifetime, we will see a country once again governed by Christians…and Christian values.” “I want to be invisible. I do guerilla warfare. I paint my face and travel at night. You don’t know it’s over until you’re in a body bag. You don’t know until election night.  – Ralph Reed (R- Christian Coalition executive director 1987-1989)
Why is this man in the White House? The majority of Americans did not vote for him. Why is he there? And I tell you this morning that he’s in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this. — Lt. General William G. Boykin, Deputy Undersecretary of Defense Under George W. Bush -10-17-03
We’ll know that our disinformation campaign has worked when everything the American public believes is false. – William Casey, Ronald Reagan’s newly-appointed CIA Director at his first staff meeting, 1981
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer. – Henry Kissinger, as reported in the October 28, 1973 New York Times Newspaper
The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. — J. Edgar Hoover, former head of the FBI and probable co-conspirator in the JFK assassination
Civil disobedience becomes a sacred duty when the state becomes lawless or corrupt. – Mahatma Gandhi
If…the machine of government…is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. – Henry David Thoreau
Show, by your actions, that you choose peace over war, freedom over oppression, voice over silence, service over self-interest, respect over advantage, courage over fear, cooperation over competition, action over passivity, diversity over uniformity, and justice over all. — Anthony J. Marsella, PhD"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #604 on: January 15, 2017, 07:17:43 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Meet the Obscure Group Influencing Trump's Energy Policy".  Team Trump thinking is dominated by the fossil fuel industry and associate minions.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-05/tiny-group-of-tesla-skeptics-emerges-as-trump-energy-powerhouse?utm_source=Inside+Climate+News&utm_campaign=0bbb27d780-Weekly_Newsletter_week_of_1_1_2017&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_29c928ffb5-0bbb27d780-326462105

Extract: "An obscure Washington policy group that opposes almost any government aid for renewable energy has emerged as an influential force in shaping Donald Trump’s plans to dismantle Obama administration climate initiatives.

The tiny Institute for Energy Research and its advocacy arm, the American Energy Alliance, work from an office decorated with an oversized photo of an oil derrick in a nondescript building in downtown Washington. Their names aren’t even on display in the unmanned lobby nine floors below.

But the modest trappings and small, 14-member staff belies their impact.

"There’s not a material energy or environmental policy on which they are not involved -- and most of them, they own," said Michael McKenna, a lobbyist who advises the alliance."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #605 on: January 15, 2017, 07:24:49 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Trump’s ‘Extreme’ Cabinet Could Fuel Warming Crisis".

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/trumps-cabinet-could-fuel-warming-crisis-21040?utm_source=Daily+Carbon+Briefing&utm_campaign=2a5d8ae70e-cb_daily&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_876aab4fd7-2a5d8ae70e-303429069

Extract: "Stunning many experts, however, is the preponderance of nominees who dispute established climate science and have profited from global warming. Trump’s cabinet could combine President Reagan-era attacks on environmental protections with science denialism reminiscent of the George W. Bush administration.

“It is, first of all, an extreme right-wing ideological cabinet,” said David Goldston, director of government affairs at the nonprofit Natural Resources Defense Council, which helped the Obama Administration develop its climate rules and strategies. “Those who are not ideologically far right wing are very corporate in their orientation.”"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #606 on: January 15, 2017, 09:56:39 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Outgoing CIA Chief Rips Into Trump on Russia Threat".  It is easy for those on this thread to cast doubts on Democrats relations to the intelligence community, as Obama (& Clinton) were in charge of the executive branch.  On Friday Trump will have this power/responsibility, so I would like to take my turn at casting doubt on the incoming executive branch w.r.t. to the abuse of intelligence (especially with regard to favoring the fossil fuel industry).

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-clashes-civil-rights-leader-inauguration-looms-44788310

Extract: "The outgoing CIA director charged on Sunday that Donald Trump lacks a full understanding of the threat Moscow poses to the United States, delivering a public lecture to the president-elect that further highlighted the bitter state of Trump's relations with American intelligence agencies.

John Brennan's pointed message on national television came just five days before Trump becomes the nation's 45th president amid lingering questions about Russia's role in the 2016 election even as the focus shifts to the challenges of governing.

"Now that he's going to have an opportunity to do something for our national security as opposed to talking and tweeting, he's going to have tremendous responsibility to make sure that U.S. and national security interests are protected," Brennan said on "Fox News Sunday," warning that the president-elect's impulsivity could be dangerous.

"Spontaneity is not something that protects national security interests," Brennan declared.
Trump, who has unleashed a series of aggressive tweets against the U.S. intelligence community and his political rivals in recent weeks, did not respond to Brennan's criticism."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Neven

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #607 on: January 15, 2017, 10:14:50 PM »
Why, after all those wonderful quotes you posted earlier, do you insist on making it Trump vs Clinton/Obama? Is it because it's like Red Sox vs Yankees? She's wearing the blue bra, so I support her. He's wearing the red underwear, so I'm against him? (hat-tip to Bill Burr)

Read that George Carlin quote again.

Do we really believe that the intelligence community has some report on Trump and Russia that it wants to share with us? And that, yeah, this time we can trust them? But after weeks of innuendo there is still zero evidence of all the bullshit that is flung at us?

This is so ludicrous that it cannot be but false. It's just smoke and mirrors, bread and circuses.

Why not let Trump do his bullshit crap and use it to galvanize a real movement for some real change, instead of getting lulled to sleep by Drone Obama and the Clinton mob?
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #608 on: January 15, 2017, 10:19:42 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Davos elites suffering acute anxiety over the dawning of the Trump era".  I do not want to paint the globalists represented by the WEF as saviors (or even white knights); however, many populist posts in this thread essentially say that they want to hold globalists responsible for such risks as climate change and financial irresponsibility, while at the same time seeking to prevent the international cooperation required to address such issues.  Such populist-tribalism supports "othering" and will only compound our current problems.

http://www.businessinsider.com/davos-elites-suffering-acute-anxiety-over-the-dawning-of-the-trump-era-2017-1

Extract: "Suma Chakrabarti, president of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD), believes a "modern version of globalization" is possible but acknowledges it will take time to emerge.

"It is going to be a long haul in persuading a lot of people that there is a different approach. But you don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water," he told Reuters.

Still, some attendees worry that the pace of technological change and the integrated, complex nature of the global economy have made it more difficult for leaders to shape and control events, let alone reconfigure the global system.

The global financial crisis of 2008/9 and the migrant crisis of 2015/16 exposed the impotence of politicians, deepening public disillusion and pushing people towards populists who offered simple explanations and solutions.

The problem, says Ian Goldin, an expert on globalization and development at the University of Oxford, is that on many of the most important issues, from climate change to financial regulation, only multilateral cooperation can deliver results. And this is precisely what the populists reject.

"The state of global politics is worse than it's been in a long time," said Goldin. "At a time when we need more coordination to tackle issues like climate change and other systemic risks, we are getting more and more insular.""
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #609 on: January 15, 2017, 10:28:28 PM »
Why, after all those wonderful quotes you posted earlier, do you insist on making it Trump vs Clinton/Obama? Is it because it's like Red Sox vs Yankees? She's wearing the blue bra, so I support her. He's wearing the red underwear, so I'm against him? (hat-tip to Bill Burr)

Read that George Carlin quote again.

Do we really believe that the intelligence community has some report on Trump and Russia that it wants to share with us? And that, yeah, this time we can trust them? But after weeks of innuendo there is still zero evidence of all the bullshit that is flung at us?

This is so ludicrous that it cannot be but false. It's just smoke and mirrors, bread and circuses.

Why not let Trump do his bullshit crap and use it to galvanize a real movement for some real change, instead of getting lulled to sleep by Drone Obama and the Clinton mob?

Neven,

There are about 7.5 billion different views of what constitutes the "truth" in this world, and what is droning to one person is the truth to someone else.  You read Carlin's quote one way, I read it another way.

Best,
ASLR

Edit: To be a little bit more responsive to your post, I am actually personally tired of posts about Hillary Clinton, & I do not view my posts about globalist views as being about her.  I will make an effort to minimize any content about Hillary in my future posts about my distrust of Team Trump and what I view as the current rather twisted version of populism (for which Trump is the poster child) around the world.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 10:58:10 PM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Martin Gisser

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #610 on: January 15, 2017, 11:09:49 PM »
While Martin is very passionate in his 'bias' towards Clinton I still say it is misplaced and (sorry to say) fundamentally misinformed.  He is choosing one faction of the oligarchy over another because the narrative on the one he supports tugs on more of his subconscious triggers than the narrative of the other one.
I would have preferred Bernie.

My "passion" for Hillary grew only last year, when I checked the stuff her opponents spread. The DNC email fake scandal is eerily equivalent to the "climategate" fake scandal, if you check context and email dates. Of older stuff I could not find anything of substance, except her being stupidly hawkish. I have even listened to her rationalization of voting for "S.J. Res. 45, A Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq" - which those who believe she was for the Iraq war did not. The Lybia intervention was stupid, too, of course, but not only her idea (ask the French). I hope it is the last lesson on "regime change". I have a Lybian friend who had to flee Gaddafi. He was as happy as Hillary that Gaddafi was dead, first, and planned his return home.

I have no doubt that Trump and Hillary are similar dangers to world peace, just like Putin. -- But there's more that makes putting both in the same basket a ridiculous false equivalence. A difference is made by the factions of "the Empire" they represent:

Trump is the puppet of the globalized fossil fuel oilygarchy: The Koch brothers, Exxon (which is a colonial power of its own with a trail of carnage from Chad to Indonesia), Rosneft/Putin, etc. http://m.democracynow.org/stories/16994
Bashing Hillary for speaking at Goldman Sachs? - have a look at Trump's Goldman Sachs folks. Check the financial deregulation they plan. And then there's the dark side of the billionaire empire which he serves with "trickle down economics". Not to mention the pharmaceutical and "health care" industry. Etc.

My conclusion actually was that HRC is the best and most serious high rank politician produced by the U.S. in decades. And that was her problem, methinks. A woman of her format is more insulting to some than a half black male president.

But now enough of her...



Quote
That Putin responds to Trumps indication that he wants to deemphasize this subjugation and emphasize economic ties plays well.  It is clearly in the interests of both countries and the people that live in them.  Not to mention everyone everywhere else also.
It is mostly in the interest of Exxon and Rosneft: Russia has not much to offer beyond fossil fuels (Ok, and excellent software engineers). It is not in the interest of the globalized biosphere, where everyone everywhere else lives. (More below)
"Sanctions Over Ukraine Put Exxon at Risk" -- http://www.wsj.com/articles/sanctions-over-ukraine-put-exxon-at-risk-1410477455
"Tillerson's rise as Exxon’s ‘Russia czar’ coincides with Putin’s own rise as the leader of Russia." -- https://thinkprogress.org/exxon-ceo-trump-worst-nominee-for-climate-40c00f67ccfe#.8ypqf9ael


Quote
the oligarchy has arranged through its owned politicians (essentially all national level politicians fit this description) and set up a tax, labor and capitalist system which has funneled almost all the wealth to the very top. Thus creating a situation ripe for the rise of a populist - Trump.  You reap what you sow.
Very funny (sorry) how The People voted for someone to massively exacerbate and accelerate this. Trump is not a "wolf in sheep's clothing", he is an undisguised velociraptor. Hilarious how The People just love to suffer and give more money to the oligarchy. We want no stinking healthcare, no minimal wage, no socialist security, no education, etc.

Quote
Back to the big picture.

We are continuing to rapidly grow the population (by May this year we will hit 7.5 billion people) which requires the consumption of additional resources and pumps additional greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere.
Not necessarily.
Which reminds me why I came to the Forum - to post about a project in the "Walking the Walk" section: the "Ecosystem Restoration Cooperative".

Besides, I herewith bet that China will turn carbon negative by 2050. They plan on turning into a "green empire", leaving the black empires of America and Russia in the dust (perhaps literally).
http://inhabitat.com/chinas-eco-civilization-plan-calls-for-23-forest-cover-by-2020/
The Chinese have already demonstrated the feasibility with ecologically restoring the Loess Plateau within 10y starting 1995.  http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2007/03/15/restoring-chinas-loess-plateau

Quote
Climate change is getting bad, it is going to get a lot worse and our actions are highly unlikely to do anything but contribute to this situation.  Eventually our ability to produce enough food will collide with the shrinking global capacity to support us.
Not necessarily. When The US People had voted for climate destruction in favor of the fossil oilygarchy, the reaction at the Marrakesh conference was incredilous shrugging. So what? The climate action train is finally on track, and Trump, Tillerson and Putin will not derail or significantly delay it. They will just be left behind, for their fossil capitalist train wreck.

Quote
Powerful countries will use their power to steal as much from others as they can as long as they can (with the US being the dominant country to do this).  It is survival afterall.
Let them eat precious stones, dollar debt soup, and drink oil. They cant steal green grass. Sending military force to collect potatos is uneconomic.

Quote
This I believe is an unavoidable future directly as a result of our inability to overcome our basic human natures.
Methinks theres more to human nature. What we need to overcome is civilization as we know it (and its madnesses). And now that we are out of the Holocene climate era (as Arctic weather tells us), the adaptive pressure might as well be taken serious by the sane fraction of mankind. Maybe there are enough people who can hear the voice of Earth and just say "go f@*k yourself up, if you need to, but let me tend the garden". The projects I mentioned above give me a little hope.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 11:22:45 PM by Martin Gisser »

JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #611 on: January 16, 2017, 04:10:02 AM »
ASLR

I don't know how to respond to what you have there as you seem to me to be avoiding the conversation at this point.

Martin

I too would have preferred Bernie - but no longer as I feel he just caved and lost credibility.

I won't pick apart your post line by line (though I am tempted).  This specific section however...

Quote
My conclusion actually was that HRC is the best and most serious high rank politician produced by the U.S. in decades.

makes me want to throw up.  I will just say to that that there are few opinions I have heard in a long time which I would disagree more with than what you just said.  But Hillary is a dead horse and beating her any longer (even though she deserves it) is a waste of time.

By the way we do not have any where near the time you need from your description of what you think is progress.

The People voted the way they did because the natural human reaction when presented with two choices  where candidate one is openly stating that she will continue Obama's method of governing and will continue the economic policies of the past 20 years; and the other candidate, who is equally flawed, but speaks to their concerns and promises change.  This leaves the voters no way out but to take a chance that the candidate offering change will actually deliver.  They are not stupid about this and fully expect that they will be disappointed.  In America we call this taking a Hail Mary pass.  Choosing between a low probability event and a zero probability event is a no brainer.  You go for it. It is rational.  That the Democrats did not see this coming shows their incompetence as I have been arguing this was going to happen for a long time (mostly in other venues).  It just got here sooner than I expected.  You can't crap on people forever and expect no reaction.

This is why you do things like what the US is doing below.  It is part of the effort in keeping the unrest on the Frontier from boiling over too much.  "You are going to take this crap and like it!"

In 2016 the US deployed Special Operations forces to 138 nations or 70% of the countries on Earth.

Quote
.....And in a 2015 report for Joint Special Operations University, Harry Yarger, a senior fellow at the school, noted that “BPC has in the past consumed vast resources for little return.”

Despite these results and larger strategic failures in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, the Obama years have been the golden age of the gray zone.  The 138 nations visited by U.S. special operators in 2016, for example, represent a jump of 130% since the waning days of the Bush administration. Although they also represent a 6% drop compared to last year’s total, 2016 remains in the upper range of the Obama years, which saw deployments to 75 nations in 2010, 120 in 2011, 134 in 2013, and 133 in 2014, before peaking at 147 countries in 2015.  Asked about the reason for the modest decline, SOCOM spokesman Ken McGraw replied, “We provide SOF to meet the geographic combatant commands’ requirements for support to their theater security cooperation plans.  Apparently, there were nine fewer countries [where] the GCCs had a requirement for SOF to deploy to in [Fiscal Year 20]16.”

The increase in deployments between 2009 and 2016 — from about 60 countries to more than double that — mirrors a similar rise in SOCOM’s total personnel (from approximately 56,000 to about 70,000) and in its baseline budget (from $9 billion to $11 billion).  ...........

http://americanempireproject.com/blog/the-year-of-the-commando/

A 130% increase over the Bush administration.  Yup.  Obama and Clinton are just creatures of peace.

Not that it would surprise me that these numbers grow under Trump and his successors.  It is part of the doubling down on empire process.  When things are unraveling there is a natural reaction to exert more force to try and maintain what level of control you seek to have.  This of course bleeds resources and, when in the decline phase where we find ourselves, it actually causes collapse to accelerate. 



We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

TerryM

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #612 on: January 16, 2017, 05:16:28 AM »
Martin


In your first paragraph you mention Hillary's "hawkishness". That alone was enough to make me flee her camp.
Global warming will probably kill my grand kids. War with Russia will probably kill me.


Terry
 

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #613 on: January 16, 2017, 06:41:46 PM »
ASLR

I don't know how to respond to what you have there as you seem to me to be avoiding the conversation at this point.

The linked commentary is entitled: "Commentary: Fiends of the Earth", and it indicates that Team Trump is actually a worst case scenario and not just a simple continuation of the graceful decline of Pax Americana.  This is really all that I have to contribute this thread, so you are correct that I plan to greatly reduce my posts here:

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2016/dec/commentary-fiends-of-the-earth

Extract: "Some environmental planners spend their careers mapping out worst-case scenarios. As of January 20, they’ve got one in the White House."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Martin Gisser

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #614 on: January 16, 2017, 08:22:49 PM »
This specific section however...

Quote
My conclusion actually was that HRC is the best and most serious high rank politician produced by the U.S. in decades.

makes me want to throw up.  I will just say to that that there are few opinions I have heard in a long time which I would disagree more with than what you just said.  But Hillary is a dead horse and beating her any longer (even though she deserves it) is a waste of time.
Yeah.
I'm not surprised by your comment.
What I said is actually a very mainstream European thing. In the late 1990ies when I was in Finland all serious girls loved her (Finnish men dont talk much)... This weekend in Bavaria I had a beer with a 12th grade English teacher, whose class followed the election closely: Many tears in class the day after. -- I didn't care much, until the stupid propaganda (which even inluded cannibalism stories) and the sometimes psychotic hate ("lock her up") made me suspicious.

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #615 on: January 16, 2017, 09:31:06 PM »
Very good article ASLR. It would have been a long, tedious and nauseating four to eight years with HRC as President. For what it's worth, I think it would have been safer and better for the environment, (a little anyways), if  she had won. Trump and his ilk are a menace and should not be underestimated.

Neven

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #616 on: January 17, 2017, 10:57:54 PM »
Jimmy Dore explains it again (why red-blue polarization for its own sake is stupid and counter-productive):

! No longer available
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #617 on: January 17, 2017, 11:04:52 PM »
Neven, I cant access your link in the above post. After your text, there's an empty space followed by a red exclamation point which is followed by "no longer available".

Update: Despite the message saying "no longer available", I clicked on it anyways, and behold, the Jimmy Dore show! So the link worked after all. Jimmy Dore reminds me of Morton Downey Jr. and the Jerry Springer show.

Although I'm not offended, I don't understand why he cant get his point across without using a lot of profanity. Although I enjoyed the humor, I was not impressed.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 06:35:20 AM by budmantis »

TerryM

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #618 on: January 18, 2017, 12:06:23 AM »
Link is fine from here.


Pick The Issues - Attacking Trump for being Trump is not only ineffective, it invites comparisons to those who attacked Obama and Clinton through their entire presidencies.
Both Obama and Clinton won second terms largely because most Americans rightly saw the unrelenting broad attacks against them as fundamentally unfair.
If your wish is to assure 8 years under Trump, continue with the broad attacks, otherwise attack a policy you disagree with.


Attacking Putin as a means of harming Trump is probably counterproductive. Obama, when debating Romney, accused him of "living in the 80's" when he went after Putin. Obama won the debate and the election.
The Republicans have a long history of fearing Russian leaders. Democrats never headed the "witch hunts" and won elections by castigating those who did.


Most don't want war - with anyone.
Why attack a person that offers peace?


Attack Trump for ignoring climate change.
Attack Trump for bringing back coal.
Attack Trump for his cabinet.
Do Not Attack Trump for Not Being a Warmonger!!!


Terry


SteveMDFP

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #619 on: January 18, 2017, 01:40:48 AM »
. . .
Attack Trump for ignoring climate change.
Attack Trump for bringing back coal.
Attack Trump for his cabinet.
Do Not Attack Trump for Not Being a Warmonger!!!


Terry

Well, it seems plainly true that Trump and Putin have a mutual admiration society going on.  I don't really see this as reducing risk of war.
We've seen Putin assertively use his military for territorial ambitions, in Georgia and Crimea especially.  The rest of Ukraine is at great risk right now, as I see it.
Vigorous responses from the US and allies have, as I see it, put some brakes on Putin's territorial ambitions.
If Trump continues to undermine NATO and seek to remove sanctions on Russia, I see nothing stopping Putin from rolling tanks into Kiev.

Meanwhile, Trump is relentlessly antagonizing China.  If he starts a trade war, gets militarily active in the South China Sea islands disputes, renounces the long-standing One China Policy, I wouldn't be surprised if China takes over Taiwan by force.

I don't see Trump as a peacemaker, just the opposite.


sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #620 on: January 18, 2017, 07:10:00 AM »
"Vigorous responses from the US and allies have, as I see it, put some brakes on Putin's territorial ambitions."

Let me rephrase that from Putin's point of view :

"Vigorous responses from Russia, as I see it, put some brakes on provocations by the USA."

Conversation with people not from the USA or Russia indicate that they are quite tired of both the USA and Russia. But more so the USA as it grows more ferocious with declining power, and perhaps more important, declining credibility. Fewer and fewer believe the USA anymore, whether promise, threat  or blandishment. Perhaps indeed the hour chooses the man, hence Trump. An uncredible man for an uncredible nation.

sidd

SteveMDFP

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #621 on: January 18, 2017, 02:33:36 PM »
sidd,

Fair enough, yes the US has been provocative, with the expansion of NATO and anti-missile defenses.  I've been against these provocations.  Sanctions in direct response to the invasion of neighbors, however, has seemed more than prudent.

We'll soon see whether Russia's territorial ambitions lessen or strengthen as Trump pushes for an end to sanctions and de-emphazing NATO.  I won't be surprised if tanks roll into Kiev.  But we'll see.

The risks of an escalation with China seem quite concerning, and of even larger significance.  Here, Trump has been a saber-rattler, if not quite a warmonger--yet.

JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #622 on: January 25, 2017, 12:25:58 AM »
sidd,

Fair enough, yes the US has been provocative, with the expansion of NATO and anti-missile defenses.  I've been against these provocations.  Sanctions in direct response to the invasion of neighbors, however, has seemed more than prudent.

We'll soon see whether Russia's territorial ambitions lessen or strengthen as Trump pushes for an end to sanctions and de-emphazing NATO.  I won't be surprised if tanks roll into Kiev.  But we'll see.

The risks of an escalation with China seem quite concerning, and of even larger significance.  Here, Trump has been a saber-rattler, if not quite a warmonger--yet.

Not to beat a dead horse, but as you are likely referring to Ukraine here it is worth, once again, pointing out that this is just American propaganda and is not the case.

The legitimately elected government of the Ukraine was overthrown in a coup by elements in the country who were trained and funded by State Dept (and likely intelligence agency) employees working for Victoria Nuland and her boss Hillary Clinton for the Obama administration.  To the tune of about 5 billion of your tax dollars.  Now the government at the time was certainly pro Russian in the fact that it had decided to take the Russian offer of loans vice the more expensive IMF backed western loans.  And it was corrupt.  But it was legitimate.

We helped topple the government.  The current government in Kiev is not legitimate in that it was not elected and seized power by force.  Those in eastern Ukraine who are fighting the government in Kiev are fighting to restore the legitimate government and are therefore in the right as they are its remaining representatives. 

The vote in Crimea to join Russia was as fair and legitimate an election that the country has ever seen and was overwhelmingly for it (somewhere around 90% which makes sense because Crimea is almost 100% Russian).  The Russian military facilities in Crimea were theirs by treaty and thus not subject to be revoked by the new government in Kiev or did they have to be 'taken' by the Russians.

Americans need to stop sucking down the propaganda a bit and learn what is actually going on in the world once in awhile.

For instance the muscle behind the coup - that is the people we trained to do this - are members of a political party which stretches back to WWII and they fought on the side of the Nazi's and murdered many thousands of Jews and other 'undesirables'. They are proud of this to this day, still celebrate their WWII leaders, and their leaders still to this day use parts of Hitlers speeches verbatim.  They are real life Nazi's.  A little know fact of WWII is that by the end of the war the Waffen SS (the most harsh of Hitlers troops) were only 60% German anymore and many of those other 40% were western Ukranians (those same folks we were talking about above). Do you really want to take their side?  Do you really want your tax dollars spent on them just to try and threaten Russian security. 

And less you think that the Russians don't have real interests there think about what our response would be if the Russians overthrew the Canadian government and instituted a regime hostile to us in Toronto.  We actually would invade.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #623 on: January 25, 2017, 05:58:10 PM »
Here is some deep food for thought on the direction of the Empire and also what the rise of Trump means.  It could have easily gone in the 2016 predictions thread as the author (a Canadian) here started predicting Trumps win of the election in 2015 and cemented it with the below long post in May 2016.

The tide has turned in the affairs of men and Trump stepped out to ride the wave (and this is not to imply this is a good thing just that it is the thing).  This one topic (here with Neven's permission) has just been to try and bring to light to many here some of the external issues which are moving history right now that are related to the main trust of this blog but which have a much larger impact on what human actions are going to be in the future than the data and numbers on arctic ice and climate change would suggest we do.  What is being learned about climate change and its implications will not for a long time be the main factor in what drives mass human decision making (and one could argue it never will with solid justification).  I spend most of my time in these other subjects as to me that is the critical path to where we are going.  I come here as I find the science fascinating and the data compelling and the conclusions catastrophic.

We are what we are and one can find no logical reason to think we are capable of the deep change to our natural decision making process (which is mostly subconscious) which would be able to take advantage of much of the great information detailed in other threads on this blog.  But if there is any chance of that happening then we have to lay it all out in plain sight in all of its ugliness.  America drives this bus presently and the path we take will be the dominant deciding factor in the end results. 

......................
May 2016

Quote
Why Donald J. Trump Will Be the Next President of the United States

Trump often emerges on stage from behind a dark navy curtain. That is a symbolically rich move, and it is a symbolism whose deeper meaning and importance throws others off, especially the likes of Hillary Clinton. This is the puppet master, the man behind the curtain, the campaign donor and buyer of favours and influence, who has suddenly decided to step out into the spotlight, and to not only be seen but to announce his role as a former puppet master, now turned rival. That has to ruin the whole show. The move is so deeply subversive, that one has to wonder just how many have truly appreciated its import.

Taking the bait, by agreeing to provide an explanation of why on several occasions since last September I have been voicing my always more certain belief that Donald Trump will be the next president of the US, is not the same thing as saying he should or should not be the president. The primary motivation in producing this is to argue against the self-satisfied misconceptions of status quo representatives, who “refuse to adapt to reality,” whose “explanations” take the dominant system for granted, and who write as if from the depths of a permanent static equilibrium. It is also written as an expression of surprise—surprise that so many in the US, even if a minority overall, seem to have understood so little about their own country, probably because again they take so much for granted and self-confidence has been fossilized as orthodoxy.....

As further bait to get you to read the whole article

Quote
...Here I need to write bluntly and in very poor taste, to better match real, lived, individual experience and private thoughts (maybe not yours, but some, whether conscious or not). When immigrants came to the US in pursuit of the “American Dream,” who would they imagine as the better embodiment of that dream?

A) The small, spiteful, neckless old lady with the cruel face and the mysterious coats that appear to be hiding large urine bags (or a colostomy bag), someone with the kindness of a prison warden and a grating cackle that is a searing assault on every image of Cinderella and Snow White? Or,

B) The gleaming skyscraper, the golden luxury suite housing the square-faced, golden-haired mountain of Grade A Beef in a $10,000 suit standing under a chandelier that looks like glinting diamonds in sparkling champagne, who is otherwise soaring through the skies in his own massive jet?

If you are answering (a), then you do not understand the United States......

https://zeroanthropology.net/2016/05/04/why-donald-j-trump-will-be-the-next-president-of-the-united-states/
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #624 on: January 25, 2017, 07:58:57 PM »
We are what we are and one can find no logical reason to think we are capable of the deep change to our natural decision making process (which is mostly subconscious) which would be able to take advantage of much of the great information detailed in other threads on this blog.  But if there is any chance of that happening then we have to lay it all out in plain sight in all of its ugliness.  America drives this bus presently and the path we take will be the dominant deciding factor in the end results. 

The first step is to get in-touch with our subconscious inclinations, and the second step is to resist the damaging inclinations (while promoting the positive inclinations).  In this regards, the linked article is entitled: "What Those Who Studied Nazis Can Teach Us About The Strange Reaction To Donald Trump", and it warns the public against adopting what the Germans call Gleichschaltung (coordination) or getting in line with the emotional fantasies being promoted by the Trump administration as part of its grab for power (& other things).  Instead, the article recommends continual resistance to such "Alternate Facts"/propaganda.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-nazi-propaganda-coordinate_us_58583b6fe4b08debb78a7d5c

Extract: "In his 1940 book, Germany: Jekyll and Hyde, Haffner explains this relationship between impression and propaganda, even for those opposed to the Reich. He writes, “Outside of Germany people often wonder at the palpable fraudulence of Nazi propaganda, the stupid incredible exaggerations, the ludicrous reticence concerning what is generally known. Who can be convinced by it? They ask. The answer is that it is not meant to convince but to impress. It addresses emotion and fantasy. Nazi propaganda seeks to create in our minds tenacious ideas and fantasies.”


While on the campaign trail in February, Trump urged followers to “knock the hell” out of protesters, promising to pay their legal bills if they were arrested and charged. That same February in Fort Worth, he promised a crowd that he would “open up our libel laws” so that news outlets can be sued for writing “false” or “purposely negative” articles. In July, he urged Russia to interfere in the election on his behalf, later saying he was joking. In September, he urged still other supporters to “monitor” polling stations. In October, he promised when victorious to throw his rival, Hillary Clinton, in jail. And just recently he advocated revoking the citizenship of Americans who burn flags.

So, in the last year, Trump has flirted with or, maybe more his style, groped and pawed at totalitarianism, yet the advice from many is to “give him a chance” ― or to coordinate.

The report of the study, “On the Perception of Incongruity: A Paradigm,” said, “Our major conclusion is that perceptual organization is powerfully determined by expectations built upon past commerce with the environment. When such expectations are violated by the environment, the perceiver’s behavior can be described as resistance to the unexpected or incongruous.”

The participants could only see what they expected to see. Their minds coordinated. For many Americans, the expectations of the game are divided government, stability and continuity regardless of what the candidate promises. However, if the new regime has embraced authoritarianism, then there will be trick cards in the deck that have to be identified correctly and challenged.

“Patriotism” became a trick card in Klemperer’s memoir and study of Nazi language, The Language of the Third Reich. Klemperer wrote of a Jewish neighbor, Frau K, who continued to speak with pride about Germany and the “Fuhrer,” despite having been deemed subhuman by the regime. Patriotism and deference to leadership ― respect for the office of the president, as we call it ― might have elevated Frau K in the old paradigm, but in the new one it worsened her condition.

“Divided government” became a trick card in Shirer’s 1960 history, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, when Hitler pushed through the Enabling Act and, “In five brief paragraphs,” took the power to legislate, approve treaties, and initiate constitutional amendments away from Parliament. A divided government essentially “committed suicide,” according to Shirer, and bequeathed its power to a dictator. 

There were many others, but “dominance” made them difficult to recognize. Joachim Fest writes in his memoir Not I, “At first, the countless violations of the law by our new rulers still caused a degree of disquiet. But among the incomprehensible features of those months, my father later recalled, was the fact that soon life went on as if such state crimes were the most natural thing in the world.” Those months would turn to years. Not the thousand years that Hitler had predicted, but enough to cause millions of deaths.

We should not waste our time or imaginations trying to reconfigure Trumpism to explain why all of the “good people” supported him. It is more important to see it for what it is and resist."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #625 on: January 25, 2017, 09:05:06 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Corruption Report: Turning to Populist Leaders May Make Things Worse", and it clearly warns that the populist trend leads to more corruption.

http://www.voanews.com/a/corruption-report-populist-leaders/3691263.html

Extract: "An anti-corruption watchdog is highlighting a link between inequality and government corruption with the release of its annual global index, saying people are increasingly looking to populist leaders who promise to tackle corruption, but are likely to make the situation worse.

“In countries with populist or autocratic leaders, we often see democracies in decline and a disturbing pattern of attempts to crack down on civil society, limit press freedom, and weaken the independence of the judiciary,” said Jose Ugaz, chair of Transparency International, as the group released its report Wednesday. “Instead of tackling crony capitalism, those leaders usually install even worse forms of corrupt systems.”"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #626 on: January 27, 2017, 02:48:03 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "It is now two and a half minutes to midnight", and a significant portion of this movement is associated with Donald Trump's behavior:

http://thebulletin.org/press-release/it-now-two-and-half-minutes-midnight10432

Extract: "In the statement about the Doomsday Clock, the Bulletin’s Science and Security Board notes: “Over the course of 2016, the global security landscape darkened as the international community failed to come effectively to grips with humanity’s most pressing existential threats, nuclear weapons and climate change … This already-threatening world situation was the backdrop for a rise in strident nationalism worldwide in 2016, including in a US presidential campaign during which the eventual victor, Donald Trump, made disturbing comments about the use and proliferation of nuclear weapons and expressed disbelief in the overwhelming scientific consensus on climate change …The board’s decision to move the clock less than a full minute — something it has never before done — reflects a simple reality: As this statement is issued, Donald Trump has been the US president only a matter of days …”
\
The statement continues: “Just the same, words matter, and President Trump has had plenty to say over the last year. Both his statements and his actions as President-elect have broken with historical precedent in unsettling ways. He has made ill-considered comments about expanding the US nuclear arsenal. He has shown a troubling propensity to discount or outright reject expert advice related to international security, including the conclusions of intelligence experts. And his nominees to head the Energy Department, and the Environmental Protection Agency dispute the basics of climate science. In short, even though he has just now taken office, the president’s intemperate statements, lack of openness to expert advice, and questionable cabinet nominations have already made a bad international security situation worse.”"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

pileus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #627 on: January 27, 2017, 12:24:24 PM »
It's safe to say that Trump nor his red hat base are students of history.  So it likely comes down to a race between descent into major conflict or accelerating/abrupt climate change.  More than likely the former inflamed by the impacts of the latter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/fdr-started-the-long-peace-under-trump-it-may-be-coming-to-an-end/2017/01/26/2f0835e2-e402-11e6-ba11-63c4b4fb5a63_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.3a4eb63a03f7#comments

"The results have been astonishing. Many historians have pointed out that we live in unprecedented times. The period since 1945 has been marked by the absence of war between the world’s major powers. Most of prior human history is a tale of economic mercantilism, political conflict and repeated war. Since 1945, we have lived in what John Lewis Gaddis dubbed the “Long Peace.” Through the Long Peace we have also had decades of rising incomes, living standards and health throughout the world, especially in the United States.

When Roosevelt was beginning to design his system, he was the dissenter. The dominant foreign policy ideas in America at the time were represented by a movement called “America First.” Nativist, isolationist and anti-Semitic, the movement held that an outward-oriented America was a policy for suckers. It took Hitler and World War II to make Americans recognize that, for a country of America’s size and scale, isolation and narrow self-interest would lead to global insecurity and disaster. One wonders what it will take to make today’s America Firsters relearn that same lesson."

JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #628 on: January 28, 2017, 03:09:56 AM »
ASLR

Quote
The first step is to get in-touch with our subconscious inclinations, and the second step is to resist the damaging inclinations (while promoting the positive inclinations).

That is simply not going to happen. We are incapable of seeing into our subconscious just like we cannot see dark matter. 

Yes Trump is a populist.  And something of a nationalist which normally tends to come with populism.  What Trump is not, and what the hysterical opponents of him need to get away from, is the constant claims and implications that he is like a Nazi or like Hitler.  This is utter BS.  For one thing it diminishes the magnitude of how evil Nazism and Hitler was and that is a very unfortunate thing to be party too.  For another reason it appears to paint Trump as an anti-semite which also flies into the face of what facts we know - after all his favorite child is an Orthodox Jew and her husband, his most trusted adviser, is as well.  Not to mention his stances on support for Israel are in line with the hard right in that country.  So just drop this stuff please as it helps in no way in achieving your goals of opposition and it destroys what credibility you might have.  Trump also, by the way, does not fit the definition of being a fascist all that well - though he may well have tendencies in that regard - along with almost every other President we have had for the last few decades not to mention Clinton herself.  So this definition is also unhelpful.

pileus

This...

Quote
So it likely comes down to a race between descent into major conflict or accelerating/abrupt climate change.  More than likely the former inflamed by the impacts of the latter.

is on point.  But I would rephrase it a bit and say that it is not a race as the two sides of your comparison are part and parcel of the same situation.  We are almost certainly going to do both at the same time.  Which come to think of it is probably what you meant.

In a civilzational collapse, like we are in the early stages of now, the natural tendency of the populace is to choose leaders who are populists as they best address or articulate solutions to those subconscious fears which come to dominate decision making.  Thus Trumps power as a budding politician.  This rise of populism was sort of foreordained.  People are scared - rightly so.  A large segment of the population has been deliberately left behind in the race to globalization not just in America but around the world.  The fascist/oligopolial nature of the neoliberal political consensus in the world is the main villain in this.  As we passed the civilizational point where we were on a constantly increasing affluence track into one where the per capita wealth stagnated and then went into decline the rise of populism was a given.  This situation was significantly worsened by the bipartisan shifting of the tax and economic systems to funnel the wealth towards the 1%.  It brought it quite a bit forward in time. 

So a Trump was coming regardless of the outcome of the last election.  Just like such politicians are rising across the world.  I expected Trump to lose and we would certainly have been better off if the Democrats had not cheated and Sanders had won.  But that is not relevant any more.  We would likely have gotten a much more capable version of Trump in 2020 and that has been disrupted by Trump winning now.  But it only would have delayed the inevitable.  We will also see political trends towards more authoritarian figures and outright totalitarian figures.  And the populace will help put them in place with some enthusiasm.  Great civilizational stresses and dangers to ones basic security trigger our subconscious to choose those paths as they indicate survival is in that direction.  So the all encompassing inclusive liberal democracy you seem enamored with is probably pretty much the last choice on any list going forward in time.

This is actually what the students of history would tell you.  The kind of benign government you desire is the least likely one you are liable to get when you extrapolate to the kind of future we have brought upon ourselves.  There is nothing irrational in such choices. When it appears not to make sense then what to problem most likely is is that the observer has biased his observation towards a given solution and ends up surprised by the results.  It is another natural part of the inability of us all to consistently act and think rationally.  As my son would say, "Science is so easy compared to this stuff."

We can only hope that the Arctic melts out this year to almost nothing and that I am wrong and this actually makes people wake up and panic.  But I really doubt it and if they just panic in line with the Green BAU utopia nonsense then the panic will just have been wasted.

But deal with reality or it will deal with you as they say.  Trump is what we have.

There are a couple of ways to proceed from here.

One of which is to help manage a degrowth track back to a level of civilization which is more sustainable and eases the path towards a much deeper civilizational contraction which at this point is unavoidable. The consensus on both political sides is not to take that path as it is too difficult and requires going against our basic human nature.  So be it - rational thought and logic is not really part of our makeup and it is just too much to expect us to do that. 

So we take option two.  That is your choice (not mine).  Most if not all of the posters here have chosen the Green BAU path and the majority of the population seems to prefer just sticking with the regular approach or Black BAU as I call it.  But the two of you are just like listening to the two factions of the Capitalist Party, otherwise known as Democrats and Republicans, argue about how many Wall Streeters you can put on the head of a pin.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #629 on: January 28, 2017, 05:36:27 PM »
ASLR

Quote
The first step is to get in-touch with our subconscious inclinations, and the second step is to resist the damaging inclinations (while promoting the positive inclinations).

That is simply not going to happen. We are incapable of seeing into our subconscious just like we cannot see dark matter. 

JimD
The linked article is entitled: "AI Turning Your Subconscious Mind into a digital personal fingerprint", and it indicates that even if you (i.e. the masses) are not willing to make the effort to get into better contact with your (i.e. the masses) subconscious that AI will be allowing others to understand your (i.e. the masses) motivations better than you (the masses) do yourself (themselves).
 
https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/03/artificial-intelligence-turning-your-subconscious-mind-into-a-di/


Extract: "Ultimate goal of AI is not only enhancing the quality of life, but also accelerating the personalization of every device around us. The journey of personalization starts with understanding the users, their personality and there by accurately predicting their business outcomes. It is known that the human subconscious mind bears a huge influence in identifying the true personality of who you are and your decisions.

Actions performed online like comments, shares, likes etc though seem to be a conscious decision from the user, it has a huge influence in terms of decision making from subconscious mind. Based on many scientific studies 90-95% of human's decisions are governed by their subconscious mind. If the theory holds true then extracting personality by tapping into someone's subconscious mind is not only intruding but also can provide more powerful and accurate business insights. This will also accelerate the aspect of personalization that may benefit users and businesses. As we were exploring this topic we came across this startup that has been selected into CES 2017 Eureka startup program who seem to be doing just that, called DOTIN .

See also:
http://dotin.us/

As to the truth about the criminal nature of the Trump Administration, by the time that you are willing to offer resistance it will likely be too late.

Best regards,
ASLR

Edit, to gain some insight on how one can get in touch with one's subconscious mind, read the Wikipedia article entitled:  "Mindfulness".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 08:53:44 PM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

longwalks1

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #630 on: January 28, 2017, 08:44:51 PM »
JimD

So a Trump was coming regardless of the outcome of the last election.   ...  Thanks.  I proof and foof occasionally on the DistributedProofreadersCanada site on the 1946 War Crimes Trials.  Trump is no Hitler.  Some comparisons to "Il Duce" might be more appropriate.  I read something recently that was comparing him to the Caesars of history.  Bread and Circuses.  Bread and circuses until there is none. 

Vol 1  http://www.fadedpage.com/showbook.php?pid=20160208   
Vol 2  http://fadedpage.com/showbook.php?pid=20160321

To search on FadedPage (where DPCanada sends its finished books) use Various as the Author or search Major War Criminals.  Note - no restriction on the above to US - as it is "accordance with the direction of the International Military Tribunal by the Secretariat of the Tribunal, under the jurisdiction of the Allied Control Authority for Germany." imho. 

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #631 on: January 28, 2017, 09:06:50 PM »

As to the truth about the criminal nature of the Trump Administration, by the time that you are willing to offer resistance it will likely be too late.

If only now that Trump has come to power, you are willing to offer resistance, you are already too late.  ;)

! No longer available
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 10:15:11 PM by Neven »
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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #632 on: January 28, 2017, 11:01:07 PM »

As to the truth about the criminal nature of the Trump Administration, by the time that you are willing to offer resistance it will likely be too late.

If only now that Trump has come to power, you are willing to offer resistance, you are already too late.  ;)


It's never too late to resist.

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #633 on: January 29, 2017, 12:06:36 AM »

As to the truth about the criminal nature of the Trump Administration, by the time that you are willing to offer resistance it will likely be too late.

If only now that Trump has come to power, you are willing to offer resistance, you are already too late.  ;)


It's never too late to resist.

exactly :-)

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1748.msg100941.html#msg100941

Susan Anderson

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #634 on: January 29, 2017, 12:54:32 AM »
Every day the news gets worse, but today I am proud of my fellow Americans who have spontaneously erupted in large numbers everywhere, and are all over the news. The volume and intensity of the resistance at airports and statehouses nationwide is a sign that many of us will not surrender to the evil that has taken over our government.

pileus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #635 on: January 29, 2017, 02:50:34 AM »
I expected Trump to lose and we would certainly have been better off if the Democrats had not cheated and Sanders had won.  But that is not relevant any more.  We would likely have gotten a much more capable version of Trump in 2020 and that has been disrupted by Trump winning now. 

Much of your thinking is well-grounded, but the notion that Senator Sanders lost due to Dem Party cheating is a bit hyperbolic IMHO. 

Yes, the DNC/Podesta hacks revealed deliberate plotting and undermining actions towards Sanders, but really is that unreasonable given all of the circumstances?   Sanders was/is not a Democrat and attempted a hostile takeover of the party.  The DNC machinery is largely establishment/centrist and reacted like any group of party elites would:  try to protect your favored front-running candidate and scheme against the rogue challenger.  Whether that's right or wrong, fair or unfair is open to opinion.  And is there any doubt that most if not all major political parties and candidates engage in the type of actions and behaviors you suggest were leveled towards Sanders?  The only difference here is that there was an unprecedented revealing of the DNC operations and the innerworkings of the Clinton campaign due to the cyberhacks.  What if we could see behind the curtains of RNC communications and planning, or past campaigns from either side?  Surely we would find brass knuckles tactics and hard nosed strategies that are intentionally hostile to various candidates.  Clinton was at a huge disadvantage by having both her and DNC strategies and tactical communications revealed for all to see, and to critique.  It basically consumed most of the oxygen in the election cycle, with very little focus on actual issues.

As you stated, it's not relevant anymore, but I'm skeptical that Sanders would have prevailed against Trump, Bannon, and the conservative media machine.

I do agree with your comments about the inevitability of a Trump-like candidate in 2020.  Right now I'm thinking about it more in terms of the "now anyone can be president" genie being let out of the bottle due to Trump.  And that genie won't be put back in.  This also applies to whatever becomes of the Dem party or even third party candidates.  We may have uber-authoritarian candidates on the GOP/conservative side, but we may also see markedly "non-traditional"/non-career politician type candidates from the Dems.  Just hopefully not Mark Zuckerberg.

Or, Trump/Pence fatigue might snap the rubberband back and we see someone like Gavin Newsom or Kirsten Gillibrand.  She bears watching, as so far she seems to be positioning as the "total" opposition force towards Trump on the Dem side.  And I do have a bias towards feeling that we need a female president.  Clinton was a retread, flawed and deeply disliked by many, but IMO she would have been a solid POTUS, certainly better than the horror show now in progress.

pileus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #636 on: January 29, 2017, 07:19:23 AM »
Well if the reports circulating about the exec branch defying the court order via customs are accurate, then we have ourselves an explosive situation that could go downhill very fast, meaning Sunday.  If the WH does not de-escalate and Congress does not move on this, there could be counter measures by others within the govt, prob the intel agencies.  And the massive public protests will get bigger.  Strange days ahead.

Why are we in a Star Wars movie.

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #637 on: January 29, 2017, 08:17:15 AM »
Every day the news gets worse, but today I am proud of my fellow Americans who have spontaneously erupted in large numbers everywhere, and are all over the news. The volume and intensity of the resistance at airports and statehouses nationwide is a sign that many of us will not surrender to the evil that has taken over our government.

As am I. If Trump continues trying to rule by fiat, his actions will continue to incite further resistance. If the Republicans don't start challenging Trump's actions, they'll find themselves on the wrong side of history, and will suffer accordingly.

ivica

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #638 on: January 29, 2017, 09:44:35 AM »
One may read following article at Politico, for fun at least:
America, You Look Like an Arab Country Right Now
Welcome to the club.
By Karl Sharro, January 22, 2017

This one is not funny: A “color revolution” is under way in the United States by The Saker, January 28, 2017.

logicmanPatrick

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #639 on: January 29, 2017, 11:23:43 AM »
How times change - from "This is the type of pioneering spirit that built this Nation." to "All immigration laws will be enforced.".  :'(

Quote
On 9th August, 1945, 16 Estonian refugees set sail from Sweden across the Atlantic to America in a 11-meter single-sail boat. The voyage lasted four and a half months. Deportation of Baltic boat refugees from the United States was vetoed by the then President Harry Truman. The story of the Erma won widespread international attention and even inspired ideas for a Hollywood film in the 1950s.
http://unitas-foundation.squarespace.com/news-main/the-book-sailing-to-freedom-to-be-reprinted-internationally-12/1/2016

Quote
Harry S Truman
Statement by the President Concerning the Estonian Refugees in Florida.
October 24, 1946

I HAVE FELT considerable personal concern over the 48 Estonians who recently displayed such courage and determination in crossing the Atlantic to our shores in two small open boats. This is the type of pioneering spirit that built this Nation.

This morning the Attorney General stayed the order requiring these people to leave the United States. This order had been issued by local officials in conformity with existing immigration regulations when it was discovered that these people had not obtained entrance visas because of over-subscription of the immigration quota for Estonians.

I have directed that all avenues be explored toward enabling this group to remain here, if they so desire, so that they may eventually become citizens of this country. The Department of State is now working on these details.

I am British, by the way.  My ancestors came to these shores with swords and shields and cries of "we don't need no stinkin' visas".   ;D
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

TerryM

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #640 on: January 30, 2017, 10:07:17 AM »

This one is not funny: A “color revolution” is under way in the United States by The Saker, January 28, 2017.


Not funny at all.


The volume of anti Putin propaganda exceeded that allotted to Saddam or Qaddafi. Now, suddenly Trump is the boogy man.


Nothing good can come from this.


BTW, Your link is a must read.
Terry

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #641 on: January 31, 2017, 06:28:24 PM »
Cross posted from The Trump Presidency thread. JimD, ASLR cross posted your reply dated 1/14/17. After reading, I posted some comments about it. ASLR suggested I address my comments and questions to you. I'd appreciate your input. Thanks.

__________________________________________________________________________

Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1106 on: Today at 06:21:56 AM »

ASLR: In regards to JimD's post from 1/14/17, six days before Trump was inaugurated, I have some observations:

1. The Deep State certainly hasn't come into existence recently. Therefore, all Presidents in the past thirty years have not faced such a threat. Which means either they were part of this apparatus or were not perceived as a threat to them.

2. Trump is trying to rule as an autocrat would, a surefire recipe for eventual removal from office by either impeachment or being found unfit to serve. Either way, his time in office will be short. Why not just let him implode instead of trying to take him out? The only reason has to be that the deep state finds him such a threat to their plans that they deem it necessary to remove him from office quickly.

3. Those of us that didn't vote for Trump cant stand the guy and find the present situation intolerable. Speaking for myself, I want him and his ilk out, but not before he's seen for what he is by his own supporters, otherwise he'll be considered a martyr for their cause, and their cause will continue. As there is a significant minority that are diehard Trumpsters, it is in everyone's interest that these folk see him for what he is.

4. If trying to stop the deep state from removing Trump by a coup, what can we do (if anything) to stop them?


« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 06:37:21 PM by budmantis »

ivica

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #642 on: January 31, 2017, 10:10:27 PM »
budmantis,

We should stick to our premises, what are they?
a few examples, from a top of my head:

"" ivica
"i do not blame any ..ism or religion, i do blame manipulators."   January 12, 2017, 02:23:47 PM

"" snowden
Edward Snowden ‏@Snowden Jan 29, 2017
"I'm not against any President. I'm against policies that violate our Constitution. Want to make America great? Honor what made it that way."

"" we are the change, Published on Jan 18, 2017


""the saker
http://thesaker.is/blogs-philosophy/

"" anonymous, joke?
Anonymous ‏@GroupAnon 23h23 hours ago
"We blame society,
but we are society."

"" debie
i read them for example from this


there was someone else recently sticking out with his premises but i forgot. blame me.-

this is OT for this thread, i apologize, JimD.



I had to edit this, i can not live w/o music, & music -- that is the nature, that is what i am.

JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #643 on: February 22, 2017, 03:59:52 AM »
Cross posted from The Trump Presidency thread. JimD, ASLR cross posted your reply dated 1/14/17. After reading, I posted some comments about it. ASLR suggested I address my comments and questions to you. I'd appreciate your input. Thanks.

__________________________________________________________________________

Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« Reply #1106 on: Today at 06:21:56 AM »

ASLR: In regards to JimD's post from 1/14/17, six days before Trump was inaugurated, I have some observations:

1. The Deep State certainly hasn't come into existence recently. Therefore, all Presidents in the past thirty years have not faced such a threat. Which means either they were part of this apparatus or were not perceived as a threat to them.

2. Trump is trying to rule as an autocrat would, a surefire recipe for eventual removal from office by either impeachment or being found unfit to serve. Either way, his time in office will be short. Why not just let him implode instead of trying to take him out? The only reason has to be that the deep state finds him such a threat to their plans that they deem it necessary to remove him from office quickly.

3. Those of us that didn't vote for Trump cant stand the guy and find the present situation intolerable. Speaking for myself, I want him and his ilk out, but not before he's seen for what he is by his own supporters, otherwise he'll be considered a martyr for their cause, and their cause will continue. As there is a significant minority that are diehard Trumpsters, it is in everyone's interest that these folk see him for what he is.

4. If trying to stop the deep state from removing Trump by a coup, what can we do (if anything) to stop them?

bud

Sorry to not respond earlier but I no longer spend much time here as I have mostly moved on to other venues.

I have never read the Trump thread you mention so I cannot address any thing there.

1.  I think you could say with certainty that all of our previous presidents going back to before I was born were not enemies of the "Deep State" and therefore there was no interest in removing any of them.  Pretty much all national level politicians are fully vetted members of the group of folks who can consider seriously running for president.  The entire structure of how we vet, select and fund candidates allows a solid level of control along these lines.  I don't believe this is an accident either.  This is not to say that the Deep State actors are monolithic though.  There are differences of opinion on what is best and how to get there.  And rivalries as always. There is, however, a strong consensus on the general ideology and global strategies.  The strong evidence for this is how little separates the Obama/Clinton's from the Bush/Reagan's when it comes to the more significant policies.  The two camps have to have constituencies to get their share of power and they have sort of divided up the citizens to make the system work.  Sanders and Trump broke the mold by running around the funding mechanisms and successfully going right to the people for their cash and by appealing directly to them.  This is anathema to the Deep State as they lose control of the outcome.  In Sanders case the DNC (being the left wing branch of the Capitalist Party) managed to execute a plan to defeat him and hang onto their candidate.  The Republicans, who were united in their attempt to prevent Trump (and who allied with Clinton, the press and the big money) failed.  Clinton's incompetence rose to the occasion and we now have Trump.  So to the Deep State there is two solutions now.  The one which will be worked very hard is to pressure Trump to evolve into a position where, regardless of rhetoric, he is sufficiently following the general directions of where the right wing of the Capitalist Party wants to go that everyone will be accepting of the current governing personnel.  We can already see Trump 'negotiating' his evolution towards some of their desires. The 2nd and very unlikely avenue is to remove Trump - but this is really unlikely.  And not to be desired as some long thought about the consequences will show you. 

2.  Sorry but I think your # 2 comments are way off base and unlikely.  All presidents tend towards autocracy in our system as we have a sort of Imperial Presidency.  But most of the hysterics from the defeated Clintonites is just that.  Obama was more autocratic than Bush Jr but he was given a pass by the Dems because he was Obama and they owned him.  Very few of the actual actions of Trump to date are measurably different than the actions of his predecessors. The Press and the Dems are just howling at everything now to make trouble and "resistance". 

I don't think there is a better than 5% chance that Trump does not serve out his full term.  He is not going to fall on his face because he will not be allowed to fail by the Republicans and just like anyone else with their hand on the brass ring he will not want to let go.  He is being intensely advised and solid members of the Deep State are filling his administration.  They will assure that things do not go to far off track - from their perspective, not yours.  Trump will certainly work towards many of his campaign promises as we have surprisingly seen - but many of those policies are actually supported by the mainstream Deep State as well, they just use less inflaming words when talking about them.  Trump is anti-illegal immigrants and opposed to new immigration - they can accommodate him on these issues as long as there is some modifications to their needs.  And they will get them as Trump is foremost a negotiator and never intended not to do that.  He is for a big drop in corporate taxes - big surprise there ha ha - and they LOVE that idea and will run that through the system as soon as they can.  What's not to like there?  He wants to push American jobs and less free trade and he has some support there as well, but it is more nuanced as it depends on who's industry it effects and how.  No one should cry over the killing of the TPP trade deal as it was poison for US citizens.  NAFTA is out of date and certainly should be reworked.  But what serves Trump here is gaining back some jobs and the real and open attempt to gain back more.  This, in political terms, is already working for him.  If he can maintain momentum on this issue (and immigration) alone he will be a strong candidate for reelection in 2020.  And the Supreme Court.  This is not a little issue and Trump has again delivered on his promises and produced another Scalia.  And there is a good chance he will get to deliver another one down the road. This is a huge victory for them.  Do not think that the Republicans don't desperately want to win in both 2018 and 2020.  If the above is working they will assist in making it a big political win for them and live with Trump - especially if their working hard to modify his rough edges bears fruit.  They may not like him all that much but don't ever forget that HE DELIVERED and saved them from wandering in the wilderness.  Absolutely everyone thought that Clinton was going to walk all over them and they might lose the Senate and this would have meant another four years in purgatory.  He saved them.  And now they are presented with an opportunity to have their way for a long time if they can execute in 2018 and 2020.  And the table is set for them this time.

I think some of the outrage and amazement is that Trump, unlike any politician running for the office, has actually tried and seems to intend to keep trying to fulfill his campaign promises.  How dare he!  He actually meant what he said.  NO politician does that.  Certainly not Obama and you can bet Clinton would not have either.  But he is and he certainly is no politician - yet.  This 'sells' big time to those who voted for him.  How many times did you read during the campaign that he was just lying to voters and that he would never do any of the stuff he said.  Must taste like crap in a lot of mouths out there.

3.  I understand what you are saying and why.  But it is wishful talk.  And you need to know that and be prepared for none of that to happen.  This idea that what you believe is 'truth' and what the other side believes makes them 'deplorables' is typical human behavior.  The other side thinks the same way about you you know.  They anxiously await the day the Libtards wake up and realize that most of the things they 'believe' in are stupid nonsense.  (don't take that personally I am just making a point)  I don't expect either side to get what they desire.  In a pure sense everyone deserves an equal chance and the space to exercise their 'rights'.  It is the utopian ideal.  But it is not the reality of human relations and it never has been.  Wealth and power tend to run the show and nothing has to date been allowed to stand in the way of that (don't forget that Clinton was far more owned by the Deep State than Trump was and thus a far less likely candidate for meaningful change).  In a collapsing world with climate change and carrying capacity issues slowly overwhelming us it is very hard to even imagine a different situation coming to pass.  Isn't it?

4.  Well I don't think you need to stop 'them' you need to stop yourself from helping make it happen.  That is the point.  Don't work for something for a short term gain (getting rid of Trump because you hate him) and by doing that giving up what is left of our so called democracy and ending up in the very place you mistakenly think Trump is taking us.  If you somehow facilitate the Deep State executing some form of a coup (which they don't really want to do as the current situation is what they prefer) then you will never get back any semblance of what you think you are trying to protect by getting rid of Trump.  There is a big mistake in strategy going on here on your side of the coin.  The idea that an enemy of my enemy is my friend.  This is dead wrong in most situations.  The Deep State is not your friend even if they finally move Trump on out.  When have they ever been your friend before?  The intelligence services are not on your side here.  They are fundamentally authoritarian in nature just like the military.  It is part of their basic nature.  Given the opportunity (as Obama, Bush and B Clinton largely did) they will collect on you and know everything about you so that they can control any situation as needed.  There is no limit to this desire on their part.  Don't facilitate our drift towards authoritarian control.  It will happen in its own good time but I would like to live out my days a little more comfortably if I may.

If you want to win you have to learn from your mistakes.  It was not the Russians, it was not the stupid deplorables, it was not the racists, etc, etc that resulted in this situation.  It was incompetence on the part of those who took an easily winnable campaign and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.  Dump the fools and get some leaders and make a plan and execute it.  Become an actual liberal party again.  Out populist the populist.  Take not just the poor and working class people of color but all of the poor and working class people into your arms.  The middle class will follow as they see the trend of them heading into the working class as long as the Deep State holds all the cards and makes the rules.  Trump's election did not turn on the racist whites it turned on the people who once voted for Obama voting for Trump.  Take those people away from the other side and you cannot lose.  Continue ignoring them and I expect you will find it harder and harder to win.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #644 on: February 22, 2017, 04:04:32 AM »
ALSR

A bit of a tweek here.  Just in fun, but with a serious side. 

Since I know how partial you are to AI and its possible positive side.  Here, however, is a real world actual existing early version of another use for AI and it certainly is hard from certain perspectives to think of it as positive.  IN fact it may have been the deciding factor in electing Trump.

Tell me what you think of this.

https://scout.ai/story/the-rise-of-the-weaponized-ai-propaganda-machine
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #645 on: February 22, 2017, 05:26:01 AM »
ALSR

A bit of a tweek here.  Just in fun, but with a serious side. 

Since I know how partial you are to AI and its possible positive side.  Here, however, is a real world actual existing early version of another use for AI and it certainly is hard from certain perspectives to think of it as positive.  IN fact it may have been the deciding factor in electing Trump.

Tell me what you think of this.

https://scout.ai/story/the-rise-of-the-weaponized-ai-propaganda-machine

Jim,

Thanks for a more detailed article than I have seen before on Cambridge Analytica and how Temp Trump/Mercer used it; and I enjoyed the read.

My impression is that we should all buckle-in because while the 3rd Industrial Revolution was about Information Science, the 4th Industrial Revolution is about the acceleration of the rate of change due to Information Science (so we haven't seen anything yet).

My general impression is that after circa 2045 we will see two significantly different tracks for post-collapse society: (1) one dominated by a cyborg approach and (2) one dominated by a species being type of approach.

When I have more time, I will write more.

Best,
ASLR
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #646 on: February 22, 2017, 05:57:41 AM »
Thanks Jim for your reply. Since I wrote my post at the end of January, my opinions have changed somewhat. In fact, reading my post from three weeks ago, I cant help but shake my head! My views continue to evolve as I've always tried to keep an open mind, although at times it is very difficult, as my default has always been a black vs. white approach. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my query. I doubt we'll ever agree completely, but I respect your insight and wisdom.

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #647 on: February 22, 2017, 10:24:01 AM »
Great post, Jim, echoing a lot of what I've been trying to get across in the Trump thread. Thanks.

I'm cross-posting it back to the Trump thread.
The enemy is within
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TerryM

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #648 on: February 22, 2017, 11:41:47 AM »
Good to hear from you again Jim!


I spent ~2 years away from this forum in an attempt to grok the Ukrainian situation. I've been back for some time now & as always find interacting with the folk here to be a very pleasurable experience.


The shock of Trump's win has been difficult, but buy and large posters here are intelligent and willing to bend as facts present themselves.


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #649 on: February 22, 2017, 11:24:14 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Russia military acknowledges new branch: info warfare troops".   As we accelerate into the 4th Industrial Revolution, it would be Pollyannaish to ignore the use of information science in either warfare, or politics (I am sure that the NSA is not making this mistake).

http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/planes-tanks-ships-russian-military-gets-massive-upgrade

Extract: "Along with a steady flow of new missiles, planes and tanks, Russia's defense minister said Wednesday his nation also has built up its muscle by forming a new branch of the military — information warfare troops."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson