Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Gardening  (Read 531246 times)

lisa

  • New ice
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Gardening
« Reply #250 on: August 26, 2014, 04:07:25 AM »
I come from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, along the southern shore of Lake Superior.  We call it the UP, or the "Yoop" and the people who live there are Yoopers.

It's a very rural, woodsy area where a lot of people still don't lock their doors at night, let alone their car doors.  So there's a joke:

"Why do Yoopers lock their cars in August?"

"Zucchini!"

Um, it's not a *good* joke, but always makes me laugh.  Mostly because I've actually had this happen to me -- got in my car from a day at word and was welcomed by about 5 pounds of zucchini sitting there all fresh and pretty in the passenger seat.

Clare

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Gardening
« Reply #251 on: August 26, 2014, 12:17:25 PM »
Thank you to you all for sharing your successes & struggles here. Some great pics of your plots & produce and great advice too. Here in NZ it is late winter but I can grow things all year round, not too many frosts & I use cold frames etc for the tender crops. So we have a good selection of things to eat.
This time of year I'm always full of anticipation for the new season with ordering seeds, with at least one new thing to try (soya beans/edame this time) and happily last season's failures have now faded from my mind. The bees are busy & my broad beans (tuinbonen/fava) are just up.


Lynn Shwadchuck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #252 on: August 29, 2014, 03:13:16 PM »
Asparagus bugs were a scourge I didn't even know I had this year till a friend identified the problem last week. But I refuse to be out there with a tub of soapy water knocking them off for hours. I did that with rode chafers one summer. Turned out the blackberry canes I was fussing over were a crap species anyway.

My garden will shrink next year. Moving berries into two of the five main beds. I'm growing only what's pretty much guaranteed based on experience here. Or fun (but a gamble) like canteloupe.
Still living in the bush in eastern Ontario. Gave up on growing annual veggies. Too much drought.

lisa

  • New ice
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Gardening
« Reply #253 on: September 09, 2014, 03:36:14 PM »
Yep, it's time to dissect the season.  I was working two jobs last spring when I put my garden in, so it feels all thrown together.  I concentrated on tomatoes, thinking that I'd do a significant amount of canning.  I also put in cabbage pumpkin, corn, peas, melon, zucchini, pumpkin, and quinoa. 

Late blight took my tomatoes (all of mid-Michigan was hard hit) and I was working so much that I never did harvest the half row of peas I put in (I saved the brown pods for seed for next year.)  I didn't have enough corn plants to ensure good pollination (only four of the six plants I put in grew past knee height) so the four cobs I had, though good tasting, were only half full of kernals.  Or perhaps they were poorly pollinated for some other reason -- it wasn't heat but maybe too much rain, I dunno.  None of my melons produced, again, it might have been too cool and wet, but my zucchinin, cabbage and pumpkins did well (we're having pork, pumpkin and black been stew tonight, and there's zucchini bread baking as I write this.)  The quinoa isn't ready to harvest yet.

The raspberries did well, and we ate them as they ripened.  So good!  The grandkids (toddlers) got into the rhubarb and broke up most of the stalks.  It will recover, but there wasn't much left over for rhubarb crisp.

Next year, I'm going to put in more time to fencing and keeping a good path between beds.

I was planning on putting in potatoes next year, but due to all the late blight around, I think I'll skip a year.  And I'll be putting next year's tomatoes in a bed across the street from the bed they were in this year. 

I'm going to grow sweet corn again, up the the number of plants to twenty or so, and experiment with saving the seed.  I'll also put in cabbage, zucchini, pumpkin -- and add rutabaga (swedes), onion and butternut squash.  I'll try melons again, and give them a little more attention to see what's going on with them.

And we'll go with the quinoa again, seeing if I can grow it from saved seed, and starting it in pots instead of broadcasting the seed. 


Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 744
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Gardening
« Reply #254 on: September 10, 2014, 09:33:06 PM »
   It is acorn season and although the drought has knocked the live oak 
( red oak ) harvest down to nothing there are some huge valley oaks( white oaks ) 
that must have their roots into the water table near the town of Los Olivos.
For human consumption acorns require leaching with several water changes over a week or so in the fridge.
As it turns out valley oak acorns  are a lot less tannic than the live oak acorns.
I collected about sixty pounds with a rake and a couple dust pans in about an hour.
With a leaf blower and some screens I could probably collect a couple hundred pounds or more in a days work. 
   I have been feeding the acorns to the pigs without leaching them. There aren't books on how you go about feeding acorns to pigs so I am kinda winging it. I know in Spain they have a practice of dehesa, putting the pigs out to pasture to feed on acorns but they also have different oak trees in Spain( maybe less tannic). I am feeding small amounts to pigs going off to market in a couple months. I am not feeding the more tannic red oak this year. The Mangalitza pigs I raise are a very fat pig and can reach 50% body fat . I have rendered the fat and I plan on running some diesel equipment on it. It is of course lard ,and high quality lard at that, but an animal that can be fed on barley(a dry land crop), pumpkins, and acorns is an animal willing to eat what most people won't . If you can run some equipment on the fat and still afford to raise pork at a profit well maybe you can make a profit farming . That's the plan anyhow. Not giving up on veggies or fruit but growing more than 15,000lbs. of veggies on small acreage has been very difficult single handed. i.e. no profit. Ten years of experience and really no prospects 
for $ improvement without diversifying. 65 baby pigs since last November.
   
        

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #255 on: September 10, 2014, 09:40:30 PM »
From Tree to Table: gathering and processing acorns

May help ?

Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 744
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Gardening
« Reply #256 on: September 12, 2014, 12:09:16 AM »
Laurent, Do you know anyone who still collects and processes acorns for food?  After looking around I found an on line book about California Oaks. There is a reference to the Valley White Oak as having been" highly sought after as animal food ". So I am not breaking any new ground feeding the 200 lbs. of valley oak acorns I have collected the last couple days. I am also leaching some for muffins. I have processed Live Oak acorns like the video you sent but this is first time with the White Oak acorns.

  http://www.californiaoaks.org/ExtAssets/acorns_and_eatem.pdf

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #257 on: September 12, 2014, 12:19:17 AM »
Don't know yet, what are you looking for exactly ? A seller of processed acorn in california ? something else ?

Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 744
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Gardening
« Reply #258 on: September 12, 2014, 02:14:57 AM »
Laurent, Just curious, do people eat acorns in France? Although it was a staple around here for thousands of years I haven't ever seen anyone collecting them. Nobody seems to mind me raking them up.  Same deal with amaranth, knowledge mostly lost and nobody cares. These crops were once revered , there were ceremonies to help insure good harvests.   

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #259 on: September 12, 2014, 08:13:28 AM »
It is the same here, I haven't even tried myself. That is definetely something I have to do this automn...
It is mentioned in some books that we use to eat acorn in the ancient times.

jai mitchell

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2357
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 207
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Gardening
« Reply #260 on: September 14, 2014, 08:19:36 AM »
you can also pickle acorns and substitute them for olives or you can use leeched acorns as substitutes for recipes calling for chickpeas, peanuts or macadamia.  I think it would do well for a curry as long as they are leeched well.

obviously if a native culture used them as a staple food they are worth harvesting.

http://www.thepeoplespaths.net/NAIFood/acorns.htm

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Acorns-for-Food

http://honest-food.net/2010/01/14/acorn-pasta-and-the-mechanics-of-eating-acorns/

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2010/12/recipes-for-the-mighty-acorn-a-forager-experiments/67228/

Haiku of Futures Passed
My "burning embers"
are not tri-color bar graphs
+3C today

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #261 on: September 16, 2014, 09:11:53 AM »
Quote
Abstract

The acorns from oaks (Quercus) and tan oaks (Lithocarpus) have been used as food for many thousands of years. They occur in the archaeological record of the early town sites in the Zagros Mountains, at Catal Hüyük (6000 BC), and oak trees were carefully inventoried by the Assyrians during the reign of Sargon II. In Europe, Asia, North Africa, the Mid-East, and North America, acorns were once a staple food. They are still a commercial food crop in several countries. Acorns are still harvested and used in several areas of the United States, most notably Southern Arizona and California. There is still some harvesting in Mexico. For many of the native Californians, acorns made up half of the diet and the annual harvest probably exceeded the current sweet corn harvest in the state.

http://works.bepress.com/david_a_bainbridge/17/

JackTaylor

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #262 on: September 17, 2014, 12:15:40 PM »
   ~ ~ --
   I have been feeding the acorns to the pigs without leaching them. There aren't books on how you go about feeding acorns to pigs so I am kinda winging it. I know in Spain they have a practice of dehesa, putting the pigs out to pasture to feed on acorns but they also have different oak trees in Spain( maybe less tannic). I am feeding small amounts to pigs going off to market in a couple months. I am not feeding the more tannic red oak this year. The Mangalitza pigs I raise are a very fat pig and can reach 50% body fat .
~ ~ --
WOW Bruce,

You do know how to evoke some memories I had not considered for over 50 years.
A good high-fat and free food.  That ought to increase the price/lb for prosciutto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosciutto

Back then, in the foothills of Western North Carolina, gathering acorns for the pigs was a big deal if they could not be "free ranged" to root for themselves.

Horse (mule) drawn wagons full from the hills and hollars http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hollar .
But, can't compare to the 'tales' of chestnuts (tons) collected according to some of my dearly departed much older relatives - community friends.


Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 744
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Gardening
« Reply #263 on: September 18, 2014, 07:45:23 PM »
Jack, Fall season has me boxing up the shallots , onions and curing the crop of kabocha. Pumpkins are getting orange and will need some shade to get them through to the 31st. With more than enough work I should be doing, the fall mast has me getting some time off foraging. Walnuts and acorns are a good excuse to root around under the canopy, nice because it's still in hot around here. Your comment about the chestnut blight got me thinking about what a huge loss it must have been to rural pig (   and wild turkey,deer,raccoon etc.)production.
 I found a quote in the NPR piece about the chestnut blight. " It was the single greatest ecological disaster this country has ever seen, and nobody remembers it."
There is much missing knowledge, the chestnut mast, acorns ,amaranth.
  http://nhpr.org/post/harvesting-chestnuts-granite-state

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #264 on: September 23, 2014, 09:31:04 PM »

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #265 on: September 25, 2014, 11:34:28 PM »
Acorns in short supply, say Forestry Commission and naturalists
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/sep/25/acorns-in-short-supply-say-forestry-commission-and-naturalists

It was also a low year for apple trees...

silkman

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 58
  • Likes Given: 14
Re: Gardening
« Reply #266 on: September 26, 2014, 09:53:59 AM »
I can confirm that's the case up here in Cheshire - few acorns but the beech has been prolific. I have a stand of mature beech beyond the end of my garden and my lawn is covered in mast. Shame I don't have a couple of pigs.

I can't really complain though as last year's winter gales provided a large quantity of fallen branches -now cut and seasoning nicely for the stove!

And what a great autumn for blackberries! I can't understand why so few people take advantage of this gift of nature. Wonderful pies and crumbles in return for a few scratched fingers.

I love this time of year!

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #267 on: September 26, 2014, 10:18:55 PM »
Back To Eden OFFICIAL FILM

http://www.backtoedenfilm.com/

It is tempting, isn't it ? well, well, if there was no climate change, that would be perfect. Except there is, so every carbon we put in the atmosphere is too much...and in order to make that wood chips and transport it, you need a lot of energy then a lot of carbon is released. I am not saying you should not use the technic, if you have the material then go for it. Oh and no need to speak about god...you should put your wood chips in Automn so that the fungy can start to eat them, if you put them in spring they may absorb to much nitrogen, that would be needed by your plants.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 10:33:06 PM by Laurent »

Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 744
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Gardening
« Reply #268 on: October 04, 2014, 01:47:00 AM »
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/climatechangeengland

Laurent, This report linked in the Guardian piece you posted Sept.25 has recommendations for planning on adapting to climate change. I don't believe the same advise is happening in the U.S. and locally we are encouraged to source seed for native tree propagation to the immediate area , the same watershed preferably. Going and sourcing seed a hundred miles south as is the 
"Forestry Commission" advice in England would be considered more like  gorilla gardens. Not organized and not encouraged.  Just another form of denial, this one perpetuated by environmental mythos.
Pretending we can maintain the same habitates we currently have with the wild swings in temperature we can expect over the next hundred+ years is just more denial, it is just perpetuated by a different faction of the American public. Trees can have lifetimes measured in centuries and planning on the health of future trees or forests demands we plan on what's good for them in scales of time relevant to  future tree survival .  In the lifespan of some trees planted today the icecaps will continue to melt and sea level may advance up to 250ft. Now imagine where we should plant those trees. Maybe a bit over the top but for sure the future world won't be the one we currently reside in, the future giants may depend on very odd placement today.     

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #269 on: October 04, 2014, 04:13:28 AM »
Agreed. Consider carefully what is coming, before you put a spade in the ground. I agonize over this all the time, but one does what once can, and cares and hopes. But "It is not necessary to hope in order to persevere."

sidd

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #270 on: October 04, 2014, 05:15:34 AM »
Agreed. Consider carefully what is coming, before you put a spade in the ground. I agonize over this all the time, but one does what once can, and cares and hopes. But "It is not necessary to hope in order to persevere."

Call me cynical, but maybe the more important thing to focus on would be to ensure an organised enough civilisation still exists that would be able to plant trees en masse, sourcing them from other parts of the world in reaction to changes playing out on the ground?

By and large, I expect the biosphere will take care of itself (notwithstanding a lot of extinctions). It's our capabilities and ourselves that are really threatened.

Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 744
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Gardening
« Reply #271 on: October 04, 2014, 05:40:37 AM »
Sidd, Thank you "one does what one can, and cares and hopes. But it is not necessary to hope in order to persevere ."
 I was thinking of trying to plant some specimen trees in the greenhouse, 14ft. tall hoop. If I could get them up to ceiling height after a couple times pruning, say twenty years out, their age and climate warming may result in this area being more similar to the sub-tropical zones currently 50 miles south.
The current seed sources for the sub-tropicals i have in mind are in Santa Barbara and may be under water within hundred years. Some of those trees are already 150 years old...like the famous Mortonbay Fig. Where we are in another 150 years? Plant for that , get through the hard freezes for twenty years and leave some nice trees and some good ground behind. Turned sixty recently, sold boat and raised a 6 ton silo with a rented hoist today.
Here is to farming future ground.   

Ccg, Funny thing but you just don't plant things without purpose. Fruit trees everybody plants but planting the beechnuts, walnuts , pecans, oaks, figs, Perry pears,persimmons, chestnuts, carob and masting forest trees demands space and large inputs of time. Pigs have me off on a tangent but what those pigs eat we can eat too. We are much more picky than to put a lot of effort into processing our meals these days but if you would like to hand down a legacy plant for foragers two legged and four.
If you do a very good job the forest will perpetuate itself. So from my recent experience most masting trees aren't valued for their crop. If you could change that and get a little competition for the harvest you might get more interest in planting trees for future generations.   

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #272 on: October 04, 2014, 06:51:24 AM »
If you do a very good job the forest will perpetuate itself. So from my recent experience most masting trees aren't valued for their crop. If you could change that and get a little competition for the harvest you might get more interest in planting trees for future generations.   

In theory, it's struck me before that large enough forests planted in key areas could provide protective habitat for people and other species as things change - because forests are quite capable of generating their own climate to some extent (the Amazon is an excellent example).

However, as I think you're hinting at - today commercial requirements, land ownership, etc all would render this of more probable use as a hopeful technique post collapse to hold onto or theoretically reclaim habitat - because it's hard to see something like that working on the sorts of scale needed today. Certainly trees are much underrated, and anything that gets us more of them later is surely a good idea.

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #273 on: October 04, 2014, 11:48:35 AM »
Bruce, yes it is very hard to know what to plant. Winters would certainly be cold (frost) for the next 5 to ten years at 45° of latitude. the idea to grow lower latitude trees in a green house is a good idea but need a lot of work and space, if you can do it yourself, go for it but that should be handled also at a wider scale because it does require a lot space, like a community, a county or(and) above. We should have some links, make some networks of seeds and plants exchanges. That is definitely something we have to do all of us.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #274 on: October 05, 2014, 02:43:44 AM »
Re: planting trees from warmer climes

Guy i know has been doing this. initially plants em in half whisky barrels on a dolly, wheels em out in spring, back in in winter, fora couple years, progressively going to longer winter exposure (got to be careful  here, rootball in half barrel will freeze faster than the ground) then drops em in a hole by a southfacing stone wall. He does this staggered so every year he is planting another. Gives him time to build out the stone wall ... he has other plans for that wall ...

Also when he wheels em out, he puts them in the spot they are going to go in in the ground. Then he digs the hole, knocks the barrel staves apart, roughens up the rootball, sprays with root stimulator, plops in the hole which he lined with appropriate soil, and waters profusely.

Like he says, you win some, you lose some, some get rained out, but you dress for all of them.  As you guessed, he was a relief pitcher.

Re: "Call me cynical, but maybe the more important thing to focus on would be to ensure an organised enough civilisation still exists that would be able to plant trees en masse, sourcing them from other parts of the world in reaction to changes playing out on the ground?"

I have been called cynical myself. In fact, i am cynical enough to wonder what an effort by an "organised enough civilisation that would be able to plant trees en masse, sourcing them from other parts of the world," might look like. Especially a civilization that had allowed matters to deteriorate to that point to begin with, or its successor after ecocidal collapse. I do seem to recall that China is now thus attempting to halt encroaching desert, and there are similar, but smaller scale efforts in Africa. And I see the efforts of the CCC (USA, depression years) and the vast monocultures they planted over strip mined land, and i see the same type of efforts by "reclamation" after strip mining today and the words of Aldo Leopold about living in a "world of wounds" echo in my head. I suppose this "reclamation," is better than the tailing piles by forsaken places like Shamokin. (PA, you can look at satpics, not nearly as bad as some others, but an old, beaten, coal town. "Rode long, whipped hard, and put away wet.")

Re: "By and large, I expect the biosphere will take care of itself (notwithstanding a lot of extinctions). It's our capabilities and ourselves that are really threatened."

I will quote Kingsnorth here: "And what really keeps me awake at night is the possibility that this civilisation could survive having destroyed 90% of the rest of life on Earth."

In these contexts, see Ellul on technology traps. But that is a discussion for another day and another thread.

I dress some wounds as best I can. But I have to pass so, so, many by.

See, i don't plant trees to save the world. I gave up hope of doing that long ago. I plant them to save my soul. One might insert an "l" in the word "save" if one were cynical enough.

sidd

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #275 on: October 05, 2014, 03:28:41 AM »
I have been called cynical myself. In fact, i am cynical enough to wonder what an effort by an "organised enough civilisation that would be able to plant trees en masse, sourcing them from other parts of the world," might look like. Especially a civilization that had allowed matters to deteriorate to that point to begin with, or its successor after ecocidal collapse.

Part of my logic is that large quantities of trees could act to moderate the climate for people. Whatever ecosystem should take over in the end, who knows - moving species around is liable to add its own level of interference (aka invasive species). On the other hand, many species will go extinct that in theory might have a chance if moved artificially (as a compensator to the rate of change preventing natural migrations) and if one moved them thus and then just let nature take over - perhaps we would have a more biodiverse result (above and beyond the benefits of trees moderating local climate for livability). In the end after all, it will be too hot for most species in most places - surely giving some of the hotter climate ones a chance further north is worth a try? In the long run evolution will sort it all out.

Trees moderate rain and water run off, they moderate temperature (especially in the summer), they moderate the wind, often bring up nutrients from deep underground, and supply us with fuel, building materials, some chemical feedstocks, charcoal, etc potentially (if managed sustainably).

Of course in terms of how I view it, you're looking at a multi-generational effort post collapse. In fact, you're potentially looking at trees being venerated almost to the extent of a religion. While in theory it could make some things worse and still represents interference in the system, I have trouble believing it would register on the same scale of harm already being done and likely to be done. Besides, for as long as our species exists - we and our actions are an integral part of the ecosystem. We just need to stop consuming it...

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #276 on: October 05, 2014, 01:07:12 PM »
You may want to protect your plants like explained here :

There is also the trick of planting your trees in front of a wall exposed south, the heat is stored in the wall and it heats the plant at night. If you have enough stone you may build a heat collector around your young tree and in half a circle 30 cm from the tree, facing south and 1 meter in height, in summer that may be too much heat...
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 01:53:27 PM by Laurent »

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #277 on: October 05, 2014, 10:44:18 PM »

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #278 on: October 06, 2014, 06:14:57 AM »
Besides, for as long as our species exists - we and our actions are an integral part of the ecosystem.

Michael Pollan writes in his book "Second Nature" :
“If nature is the one necessary source of instruction for a garden ethic,culture is the other. Civilization may be part of our problem with respect to nature, but there will be no solution without it. As Wendell Berry has pointed out, it is culture, and certainly not nature, that teaches us to observe and remember, to learn from our mistakes, to share our experiences, and perhaps most important of all, to restrain ourselves. Nature does not teach its creatures to control their appetites except by the harshest of lessons–epidemics, mass death, extinctions. Nothing would be more natural than for humankind to burden the environment to the extent that it was rendered unfit for human life. Nature in that event would not be the loser, nor would it disturb her laws in the least–operating as it has always done, natural selection would unceremoniously do us in. Should this fate be averted, it will only be because our culture–our laws and metaphors, our science and technology, our ongoing conversation about nature and man’s place in it–pointed us in the direction of a different future. Nature will not do this for us.”

But i fear that Kingsnorth's darkest vision is all too possible.

sidd

viddaloo

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1302
  • Hardanger Sometimes
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #279 on: October 06, 2014, 10:33:34 AM »
It's quite gross to claim that man shows ecological restraint, while other species don't. So typical for human hybris to think that way.
[]

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #280 on: October 06, 2014, 02:55:07 PM »
It's quite gross to claim that man shows ecological restraint, while other species don't. So typical for human hybris to think that way.

Other species don't though. I mean, some of them were inconsiderate enough to pollute the whole atmosphere in a much bigger way with poison, er, I mean oxygen.

Personally I think Gaia hypothesis acts as an important corollorary to evolution - not all beneficial changes for an organism are valid and successful changes, because all species essentially must co-evolve in ways that work together. Hence if black daisies grew twice as fast in daisyworld, you'd think that must be a beneficial mutation by Darwinian rules - but if it alters the heat balance of the planet, it can't swing things much as they damage their own environment.

As to other species showing restraint, nonsense. If I toss a handful of rabbits into a lush green field, do you think they will behave sustainably? Or do you think they will multiply rampantly until all the grass is consumed and the corpses of starving rabbits litter the landscape?

People are no difference from rabbits - our large brains appear to let us bring a lot more efficiency and ingenuity to these basic processes (consumption and reproduction) - but they do not allow us to fundamentally change the paradigm to date, largely because they appear to be wired to make us put blind faith in our ability to indefinitely solve the ever larger and more complex problems we are creating. Misplaced faith as our responses probably aren't so different to the rabbits when it comes down to it - evolution follows the same general ruleset, and we share plenty of traits and genetics even with them.

For an organism capable of acting as a super predator to succeed long term, it must simultaneously evolve the ability to temper itself where nature no longer can short term. Yet to do so is to conflict with almost everything else evolved where short term gains are king.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 602
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Gardening
« Reply #281 on: October 07, 2014, 12:22:05 AM »
"If nature is the one necessary source of instruction for a garden ethic,culture is the other. Civilization may be part of our problem with respect to nature, but there will be no solution without it. "

That subtly conflates 'culture' and 'civilization.' My understanding is that the two have distinct meanings. Civilization may be a particular kind of culture, but surely not all human cultures can be categorized as 'civilizations.'

Am I missing something?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #282 on: October 07, 2014, 01:38:26 AM »
Agreed, "civilization" was unfortunate word use by Pollan. Berry used "culture" in the quote, and is repeated everywhere else in the quote i posted.

sidd

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 602
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Gardening
« Reply #283 on: October 07, 2014, 03:35:27 AM »
Yes.

Clever as Pollan can be, I must say, I generally prefer Berry.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

lisa

  • New ice
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Gardening
« Reply #284 on: October 13, 2014, 06:10:48 AM »
So, I'm looking at a piece of property next week.  There's a fair chance that I and my family, working class for the most part, may be able to bag it through a land contract deal.

The land is located in the UP of Michigan, about 15 miles inland of Lake Superior.  This is an area I grew up in -- I know it well.  It's mostly a zone 4, edging up into zone 5 some years, except last year when it was more like a zone 3.

The soil is poor -- either too sandy or too peat-bog acidic.  Berries do well up in the UP -- there's tons of blueberries, raspberries, thimbleberries, saskatoon, chokecherry and wild grape.  I'd love to plant chestnut, oak and beech, as well as apple, pear and cherry -- and I've been reading the posts here about greenhouse tree planting and stone walls with interest.

I guess I'm just saying -- if you had 40 acres like this, what would you do?  Is anyone interested in coming along for the ride, virtually, if you will.   

What the heck is step one?  Well, I guess that'd be a kind of inventory of what the area looks like.  I'll be getting some GPS coordinates next week.  I'm thinking that we'd put up a small cabin next summer, with a well and septic tank and start right away on improving the soil.  Everyone will be working to support their families and putting a little aside for equipment and time to put into the place.

Overall, I'm not hopeful.  Not that I don't think we can form a decent homestead from this chunk of land, but I wonder how much difference it'll make in the long run.  But what was that quote about  hope?  "One need not hope in order to undertake, nor succeed in order to persevere."  Yeah, that's where I'm at right now.

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #285 on: October 13, 2014, 06:28:00 AM »
Overall, I'm not hopeful.  Not that I don't think we can form a decent homestead from this chunk of land, but I wonder how much difference it'll make in the long run.  But what was that quote about  hope?  "One need not hope in order to undertake, nor succeed in order to persevere."  Yeah, that's where I'm at right now.

Every person who learns skills that are not dependent upon the industrial dependencies of modern civilisation is arguably a potential little island of resilience that did not exist before.

Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 744
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Gardening
« Reply #286 on: October 13, 2014, 07:29:24 AM »
Lisa, I have run a small farm about ten years. I put up a 30 by 72 unheated greenhouse to extend my farm season. Ripe tomatoes a couple months earlier in the season and extended also in the fall.  This was long after I had dealt with water and septic. Sometimes buying property with water and septic already developed can save you money. So put together costs. Advice from my grandfather, water first. All wells and many septics as well as roads need maintenance so about every ten years you will be hit with substantial bills.  Even if you just want to move a trailer onto your property you will need water. There are off grid options for power but well drillers and septic systems come first.
 Trees are something that improve property so if you can put some energy into getting them started early you will be rewarded later. Finding were you intend on putting your garden might impact your tree planting , don't block your southern exposures.
 This is all very general advice but if you can maintain at least one steady income it will help. Farms that can show income are also a good tax write off so you should look into keeping some livestock to sell. A few cattle may allow you to write off wells, fences, road work etc.   You have a few years leeway before you need to show a profit.
 I tried growing vegetables and although I have fairly good markets fairly close I couldn't produce enough volume to make much money. I am currently raising pigs in conditions far more humane than most commercial farms, outdoors in little herds. Even if you are distant from markets livestock can reduce transport costs that vegetables constantly require.
 There is a certain pleasure in  persevering. 

lisa

  • New ice
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Gardening
« Reply #287 on: October 13, 2014, 03:49:28 PM »
Thanks for the replies, guys.  What you both say jibes with my instincts, too.  I'd like to post often as I move along on this project.  When/if we're able to get the parcel, I'll start a new thread on this "walking the walk" subject line.  I want to see a lot of armchair generals!  I'll need all the advice I can get.

I've worked at a small organic CSA farm -- it was a place that provided work therapy for my clients (I'm a CNA).  So besides being a home gardener, I'm familiar with hoop houses and small fields.

I've never kept animals other than pets, but I'm ready to keep livestock; I've been thinking and educating myself about it for years.  My husband and sons are hunters.  They can do the slaughtering!

So, beyond the first cabin and trees, I have plans for a small barn, a root cellar and smoke house, and hoop houses for fresh vegetables.   Placement for all of this will take some real planning, and once I'm on the ground, I'll post topo maps here.  Then all I need is a bucket to gather up everyone's collective wisdom. 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 04:01:30 PM by lisa »

jbatteen

  • New ice
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #288 on: October 14, 2014, 05:22:58 PM »
Lisa, sounds like you've got a great start there.  I dream of one day owning property in the Northern MN <---> UP area somewhere.  I'm from Southern MN originally.  With lots of compost and probably buying things with the nutrients you're missing (via guanos or fish meal etc) you can build up some very fertile soil over the course of a few years, ideally underneath where you plan to build a high tunnel.  Until then you will do best growing things that are well-adapted to your soils, like berries and trees.  Otherwise I don't have much to add.  I'll be watching with great interest.

mark

  • New ice
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gardening
« Reply #289 on: October 21, 2014, 11:48:37 PM »
Lisa, likewise it sounds great. Part of my job in the UK is advising on natural ways of keeping sports turf in playing condition that requires a knowledge of the soil and what it can do. If you want help on the project then there would be a need for a bit more info than 'too sandy or peat bog acidic' - theres a world of difference between the 2. I assume that you will put aside some of the land to grow crops/trees/fruit/berries that grow in the immediate area as that ensures success. Then I would assume you would want to 'adapt' some soil to produce vegetables and other crops that the local soils may not support. The soil is your friend so getting a basic understanding of the potential of your patch should be your first move.

Best of luck

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #290 on: October 27, 2014, 10:00:40 AM »
He Started With Some Boxes, 60 Days Later, The Neighbors Could Not Believe What He Built
http://themetapicture.com/he-started-with-some-boxes-60-days/

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #291 on: October 31, 2014, 10:37:59 AM »
If you want to exchange some plants that site may help :
http://plantcatching.com/en

lisa

  • New ice
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Gardening
« Reply #292 on: November 09, 2014, 04:43:59 PM »
Thanks for the link, Laurent!  Also, I got your seeds, so multiply those thanks.  Very cool seeds.

Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 744
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Gardening
« Reply #293 on: November 09, 2014, 06:13:57 PM »
Here is a new book on Permaculture/sustainable ecovillages with examples of ongoing worldwide efforts. Hat tip to Robert Wilson over at Tverberg... Finite World blog.

http://thebluepaper.com/article/book-review-sustainable-revolution-north-atlantic-books/

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50

Michael Hauber

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1114
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 168
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Gardening
« Reply #295 on: November 25, 2014, 10:00:38 AM »
Roots are amazing things.  Many of our common vegetables can grow a root systems extending a foot deep by the time the seedling is a few centimeters high.  And even something like a carrot can grow roots that go over a meter deep by the time it is mature.
Climate change:  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, expect the middle.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 602
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Gardening
« Reply #296 on: November 25, 2014, 10:08:07 PM »
According to the book Grass (no, not that kind), a rye sprout four months old has a root system so extensive that if you cut off all the ramifications and laid them end to end they would extend 137 miles.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: Gardening
« Reply #297 on: December 15, 2014, 10:40:53 AM »
Teens create automated aeroponics garden kit with NASA tech
http://faircompanies.com/videos/view/teens-create-automated-aeroponics-garden-kit-with-nasa-tech/

Just wondering if I can use urine to feed theses plantes or a mix with something more natural to have an ideal ph of 6-6,5 ?

You may also want to see this one to complete :
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 10:55:25 AM by Laurent »

lisa

  • New ice
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Gardening
« Reply #298 on: January 13, 2015, 05:05:41 AM »
Chestnuts!  Does anyone have any hands-on experience?  It looks really good for us to get that parcel up north, and after doing a survey of the place, we're thinking that we'll plant fruit and nut trees this coming planting season. 

I'm leaning at planting them at 20'-30 centers so I won't have to prune and thin, even if that means we won't have much (due to under-pollination) for the first 5-8 years.  I'm also leaning at planting them in a quincunx pattern, with a good pollinator in the middle, just 10 trees to start with.

Of course, I'm looking at cultivars that will grow north of the 45th parallel, zone 3-5 (which will change, I know, will be greatly fluctuating between sub-zero polar air and some years when it'll barely freeze at all.) 

Clare

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Gardening
« Reply #299 on: April 05, 2015, 03:44:20 AM »
A NZ Urban Garden project:
I thought this Koanga Institute
http://www.koanga.org.nz/knowledgebase/design-knowledge/200-sq-m-urban-design/
site might interest other gardeners, yes I realise a number of you are pros, or that a sustainable closed self sufficient system is not everyone's goal. And maybe like me you couldn't cope with breeding rabbits & guinea pigs to kill for your dinner?  :(
But they are trying some interesting things & 'cos they are a couple of hours drive north of me I have booked myself & DH for their next garden tour! This group have been saving heritage seeds & fruit trees for 30 years & have recently expanded their goals to include this.

The 1930's Weston Price book mentioned is available as a free download here.
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html

And I'll try adding a Dropbox link here
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b7bsqfc2ymtzirh/AADvx27fXuB_wMVmLx44R8Vua?dl=0
 to an article about this garden project that featured in a recent NZ Gardener magazine, or just email me if it doesn't & you would like to read it.

Clare