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Author Topic: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)  (Read 21877 times)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2017, 02:01:48 PM »
A look at the why and how of CCS, including visits to operating plants.

Can Carbon-Dioxide Removal Save the World?
CO2 could soon reach levels that, it’s widely agreed, will lead to catastrophe.
Quote
One of the reasons we’ve made so little progress on climate change, he contends, is that the issue has acquired an ethical charge, which has polarized people. To the extent that emissions are seen as bad, emitters become guilty. “Such a moral stance makes virtually everyone a sinner, and makes hypocrites out of many who are concerned about climate change but still partake in the benefits of modernity,” he has written. Changing the paradigm, Lackner believes, will change the conversation. If CO2 is treated as just another form of waste, which has to be disposed of, then people can stop arguing about whether it’s a problem and finally start doing something.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/11/20/can-carbon-dioxide-removal-save-the-world
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2017, 09:27:55 PM »
BBC reports: Climate's magic rabbit: Pulling CO2 out of thin air

Carbon Capture, but not Carbon Storage.
Quote
...
A half-hour outside Zurich stands one of the frontline attempts to develop a commercial approach to sucking down CO2.

On the roof of a large recycling centre at Hinwil stand 18 metal fans, stacked on top of each, each about the size of a large domestic washing machine.

These fans suck in the surrounding air and chemically coated filters inside absorb the CO2. They become saturated in a few hours so, using the waste heat from the recycling facility, the filters are heated up to 100C and very pure carbon dioxide gas is then collected.

...
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2017, 10:07:06 PM »
BBC reports: Climate's magic rabbit: Pulling CO2 out of thin air

Carbon Capture, but not Carbon Storage.
Quote
...
A half-hour outside Zurich stands one of the frontline attempts to develop a commercial approach to sucking down CO2.

On the roof of a large recycling centre at Hinwil stand 18 metal fans, stacked on top of each, each about the size of a large domestic washing machine.

These fans suck in the surrounding air and chemically coated filters inside absorb the CO2. They become saturated in a few hours so, using the waste heat from the recycling facility, the filters are heated up to 100C and very pure carbon dioxide gas is then collected.

...

That's nice but there are two unanswered questions:

1) Can it scale?  Would it be affordable enough to build in huge volume so that there would be meaningful carbon removal from the atmosphere?

2) How would the CO2 be sequestered?  Just capturing CO2 from the air and then using it in agriculture or industry in a manner that puts the carbon back into the atmosphere gets us nowhere.

numerobis

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2017, 10:27:51 PM »
We need not wait for storage: If captured CO2 displaces CO2 produced from rocks for the purpose of producing CO2, it’s already a net improvement. I’m thinking of iron smelters, for instance.

Avalonian

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #104 on: February 20, 2018, 06:16:03 PM »
Does anyone have any comments on this?

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/540706/researcher-demonstrates-how-to-suck-carbon-from-the-air-make-stuff-from-it/

I'm hearing it touted as a way to reduce CO2 to preindustrial levels in 10 years (admittedly with very extensive deployment!), but there seems to be little information on how the atmospheric capture actually works... and whether there's enough lithium to do it on that scale in the first place! Call me a sceptic, but to have no news after two and a half years...

Any further info on this process?

SteveMDFP

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2018, 07:33:41 PM »
Does anyone have any comments on this?

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/540706/researcher-demonstrates-how-to-suck-carbon-from-the-air-make-stuff-from-it/

I'm hearing it touted as a way to reduce CO2 to preindustrial levels in 10 years (admittedly with very extensive deployment!), but there seems to be little information on how the atmospheric capture actually works... and whether there's enough lithium to do it on that scale in the first place! Call me a sceptic, but to have no news after two and a half years...

Any further info on this process?

There's a later, and highly detailed article in Nature:
Tracking airborne CO2 mitigation and low cost transformation into valuable carbon nanotubes
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep27760

I'm skeptical of the utility of this approach for pulling CO2 from the atmosphere.  But these pure carbon nanofibers could be really useful as a replacement for many materials.

Steve

DrTskoul

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2018, 08:02:07 PM »
Does anyone have any comments on this?

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/540706/researcher-demonstrates-how-to-suck-carbon-from-the-air-make-stuff-from-it/

I'm hearing it touted as a way to reduce CO2 to preindustrial levels in 10 years (admittedly with very extensive deployment!), but there seems to be little information on how the atmospheric capture actually works... and whether there's enough lithium to do it on that scale in the first place! Call me a sceptic, but to have no news after two and a half years...

Any further info on this process?

There's a later, and highly detailed article in Nature:
Tracking airborne CO2 mitigation and low cost transformation into valuable carbon nanotubes
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep27760

I'm skeptical of the utility of this approach for pulling CO2 from the atmosphere.  But these pure carbon nanofibers could be really useful as a replacement for many materials.

Steve

At this point air capture is at least 5x more expensive than post combustion point source capture.
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Avalonian

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2018, 08:38:40 PM »
Thanks, Both - and I'll have a good look at that paper, Steve.

The expense of direct capture from air is probably going to be a real problem, given human nature... the people doing this are probably going to want to make profits first and save the world as a by-product. Unfortunately, by the time these systems have been fitted to available cement works and power stations, and carbon nanofibres are being produced on mass, all over the world, any financial impetus for atmospheric capture may well have been lost.

It's one of those ideas that looks as though, theoretically, it would probably work... if the resources were thrown at it by governments and industries everywhere. Industries, however, would be out-competed by those that took the easy option of post-combustion capture, so that they go under. Like you two, I was inherently sceptical that this is 'The Answer'... but couldn't quite see why. It might still work, but needs to be supported in ways that, it seems to me, our current society just doesn't do. But perhaps China will...

oren

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2018, 01:16:50 AM »
Unfortunately the easy option is not post-combustion capture. It's no capture at all.  :(

sidd

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2018, 06:03:40 PM »
I didn't notice this: Trump's tax break for the rich has 30US$/ton (imperial ton, not metric tonne) sequestered carbon

"The credit under U.S. Code 45Q Credit for Carbon Sequestration would provide $30 a ton benefit for the first 75 million metric tons of sequestered carbon or $2.25 billion."

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2018/04/trumps-carbon-capture-tax-break-mechanical-and-biological-paths.html

sidd

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2018, 05:03:53 AM »
This could be a step forward... cost now down to $100 (from $600) per ton, and turn the CO2 into fuel.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44396781



Of course, when you burn the fuel...  ::)

Sleepy

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2018, 05:14:46 AM »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #112 on: June 08, 2018, 07:14:25 AM »
This could be a step forward... cost now down to $100 (from $600) per ton, and turn the CO2 into fuel.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44396781

Of course, when you burn the fuel...  ::)

Sadly, the two technologies described here yield zero reduction of atmospheric CO2.  Turn CO2 into a fuel by adding hydrogen+energy.  Burn the fuel, and the CO2 is back in the air.  Maybe it's a solution for marine vessels or aircraft, which can't really be powered by battery/solar/wind.  But it won't reduce the CO2 in the air at all.

Concentrate CO2 from the air and pump it into a greenhouse.  When the vegetable matter is metabolized or otherwise decays, the CO2 again returns to the air.

I think that for the next 50 years or more, the only economically practical way to pull CO2 out of the air will be the old-fashioned way:  photosynthesis by green plants.  Maybe ocean algae, maybe reforestation.  Maybe reformed agricultural practices.  Won't be easy to make any perceptible headway at all

Bob Wallace

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #113 on: June 08, 2018, 07:29:52 AM »
I wonder if we could operate large scale forestry with very quick growing trees, process the wood into charcoal in order to decrease the amount of mass, and bury the charcoal in large "open pit mines".

Use only renewable energy to run the system.

Outside of that when it comes to removing and safely storing atmospheric carbon I got nothin'.

Sleepy

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #114 on: June 08, 2018, 07:39:22 AM »
This might be of interest in this thread as well.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1021.msg157832.html#msg157832

Also a recent article about ESA's GlobBiomass project:
https://sentinels.copernicus.eu/web/sentinel/news/-/article/copernicus-sentinels-to-help-measure-earth-s-biomass
Standing on the ground here around 60°N one would think there's a lot of biomass, the images in the article tells a different story. Adding the global image.
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sidd

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #115 on: June 08, 2018, 07:55:27 AM »
Re: "bury the charcoal in large "open pit mines". "

This will take an effort comparable to the coal mining industry today, with corresponding environmental impact.  Perhaps just sink the trees in deep ocean trenches.

Olivine weathering might be a solution. Again, large scale earthmoving operations. Runoff is a concern.

Deep burial, a la iceland is another possibility. Geological formations capable of sequester for centuries if not millennia are rare.

Then there is the soil carbon sequestration in grassland via the glomalin pathway. Results are mixed. Perhaps very promising, but again, land resources and human participation required are large.

No sequestration pathway is easy.

Perhaps best to concentrate on burning less carbon and eating less meat, those are low hanging fruit. If you don't put carbon in the air, you won't have to suck it out later.

I suspect large scale carbon sequestration is a task that will not be accomplished in my lifetime. That's not saying much tho, i expect to see, at best, a couple more decades.

sidd

Bob Wallace

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #116 on: June 08, 2018, 08:48:47 AM »
If we were to stop emitting CO2 today we'd still need to re-sequester carbon in order to return to more moderate global temperatures. 

Burying large amounts of charcoal would be quite like the coal mining we've done over the last 100 plus years.  Plus we'd need to offset the oil and natural gas we've burned.  And we'd probably want to get the job done in far less than 100 years, if possible.

Of course there would be an environmental impact.  We'd have to work to minimize the bad while we benefited from the good.  We'd end up with areas where the surface of the ground was higher than before we started burying charcoal.  But if we attend to runoff problems and shape the earth cap over the charcoal into a natural-like topography the Earth shouldn't suffer.

We might do some clever intentional shaping of the burial areas and create water sinks which could help recharge aquifers.  Create areas of 'bowls' which wouldn't appear to be artificial bowls but would trap rainfall and let it perk back into the ground rather than run into streams.


Sleepy

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #117 on: June 08, 2018, 08:58:04 AM »
Perhaps best to concentrate on burning less carbon and eating less meat, those are low hanging fruit. If you don't put carbon in the air, you won't have to suck it out later.
Yeah but still a gordian knot for most adults.

Some personal side effects that may occur after cutting that knot:
You will;
-need less money.
-have more time.
-be more relaxed.
-loose weight.
-be healthier.
-have more energy.
-spend more energy on your children or grandchildren.
-be happier.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #118 on: June 08, 2018, 02:07:26 PM »
I wonder if we could operate large scale forestry with very quick growing trees, process the wood into charcoal in order to decrease the amount of mass, and bury the charcoal in large "open pit mines".
Still a rocket science technocrat view, but at least a step into the right direction.

We have huge areas of severely degraded agricultural land which could be vastly improved (water and nutrient retention, phosphorus mobilization) by mixing in adequate char coal (actually "biochar" which is something different to classical char coal). But this requires some nontrivial systems thinking and an agri-cultural revolution beyond simplistic (yet megalomaniac) rocket science.

Plus, there are deserts. I'm waiting for China to show the West how to do it. I'm waiting for the invention of the woodgas-electric hybrid car.

It is not a matter of huge pits and huge piles or dumping forests into the deep ocean, etc. There are lots of farmers, big and small, who could do it "by hand".

Martin Gisser

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #119 on: June 08, 2018, 02:20:43 PM »
We'd end up with areas where the surface of the ground was higher than before we started burying charcoal.
Not necessarily. It could be spread over a vast area. Also, often enough the surface had been lowered by agricultural abuse and consequential erosion. Paradigm: Icelandic "rofabard" landscape. Restoring Icelandic soils and forests ruined since the Vikings could already make quite a dent.

Biochar production and reforestation could be combined. That's why I'm waiting for the Chinese. They are decades ahead. The bootstrapping would take a decade or two until the young forests give enough coppice wood to harvest and to power the machines (by wood gas with biochar output).


Sleepy

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #120 on: June 08, 2018, 02:22:22 PM »
A hugely popular video with; Rob Hopkins, Transition Network, and Staffan Lindberg in Uppsala Sweden talking, and acting, about offsetting emissions of carbon dioxide with biochar.
82 views since last year. Don't worry, he starts talking English around 1:20 or so. :)

Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #121 on: June 08, 2018, 03:33:47 PM »
Quote
It could be spread over a vast area. Also, often enough the surface had been lowered by agricultural abuse and consequential erosion.

That's possible.  Possibly buried shallow in the forests where the trees are grown.  And we probably would use degraded land for the forests so filling "shallow canyons" that are a result of our bad land practices could be a fill site.

Fifty years ago I traveled through the area east of Paris and observed farmers growing their firewood on top of their fence posts.  They planted trees on the fence line and once the trunks were large enough attached barbwire to them.

Then the cut off the growth above the post to fuel their heating and cooking fires.  They used species of trees which, when topped, put up new growth in the form of several twigs/limbs.  The farmers thinned the shoots to three or four, let those grow large enough, and then cut that new growth for firewood.

They timed their cutting so that each year they cut a portion of their fence tops, working their way around their fields, and enjoying a sustainable supply of wood.

I can see a carbon sequestering forest operating in the same way.  A mobile, solar powered, automated "charcoal factory" that cuts trees once they're achieved the end of their rapid growth phase then turns them into charcoal, and buries the charcoal.  A factory that might work for five or six years before returning to the same location.

And a second automated device that followed along, about a year behind, thinning the shoots that come from the stump down to three or so.

Automated, it could simply sit on days when there was not enough sunshine to power operation.

I've done a manual version of this.  I helped plant two eucalyptus wood lots.  After five years we started cutting about 25% of each grove each year.  Year nine we were cutting 'stump growth'.

We've got over used, "burned out" fields in the South where cotton has stripped the land of nutrients.  We're shipping trains of NYC sewage to the South for disposal.  Seems like there could be an opportunity to put a few pieces together and put at least some carbon back underground.

Hefaistos

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2018, 03:54:09 PM »
This could be a step forward... cost now down to $100 (from $600) per ton, and turn the CO2 into fuel.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44396781

Of course, when you burn the fuel...  ::)

Sadly, the two technologies described here yield zero reduction of atmospheric CO2.  Turn CO2 into a fuel by adding hydrogen+energy.  Burn the fuel, and the CO2 is back in the air.  Maybe it's a solution for marine vessels or aircraft, which can't really be powered by battery/solar/wind.  But it won't reduce the CO2 in the air at all.

Concentrate CO2 from the air and pump it into a greenhouse.  When the vegetable matter is metabolized or otherwise decays, the CO2 again returns to the air.

I think that for the next 50 years or more, the only economically practical way to pull CO2 out of the air will be the old-fashioned way:  photosynthesis by green plants.  Maybe ocean algae, maybe reforestation.  Maybe reformed agricultural practices.  Won't be easy to make any perceptible headway at all

Link to the full text of the research paper, published June 7 2018:
https://www.cell.com/joule/fulltext/S2542-4351(18)30225-3

"An industrial process for large-scale capture of atmospheric CO2 (DAC) serves two roles. First, as a source of CO2 for making carbon-neutral hydrocarbon fuels, enabling carbon-free energy to be converted into high-energy-density fuels. Solar fuels, for example, may be produced at high-insolation low-cost locations from DAC-CO2 and electrolytic hydrogen using gas-to-liquids technology enabling decarbonization of difficult-to-electrify sectors such as aviation. And second, DAC with CO2 sequestration allows carbon removal."

Martin Gisser

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2018, 03:59:31 PM »
A mobile, solar powered, automated "charcoal factory" that cuts trees once they're achieved the end of their rapid growth phase then turns them into charcoal, and buries the charcoal.  A factory that might work for five or six years before returning to the same location.
No solar power needed. Wood gas motors are known since pre WWII. The charcoal production releases syngas, which can power the machines. Plus, there are tars and oils and plastics than can be produced on the fly. Old classical chemistry.

Simply burying charcoal is uneffective. It needs to be loaded with nutrients first.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2018, 04:03:25 PM »

We've got over used, "burned out" fields in the South where cotton has stripped the land of nutrients.  We're shipping trains of NYC sewage to the South for disposal.  Seems like there could be an opportunity to put a few pieces together and put at least some carbon back underground.

There may be an existing model of how to incorporate biochar into such agricultural land restoration efforts.  Under current economics, I'm skeptical that farmers can make it pay to put biochar in any quantity into the soil. 

Consider that in the US we have ethanol standard for gasoline.  Forget, for the moment, that it doesn't make environmental or economic sense.  We nevertheless have not inconsiderable biomass going into fueling US vehicles.

Analogously, we might have a bio-char standard for topsoil and fertilizer sales.  Say 5% by mass of all fertilizer or landfill sold, and 15% of all topsoil sold must be bio-char.  Lots of complaints from those who want the cheapest possible fertilizer and topsoil.  But it's not a bad additive, and it would create medium-to-long-term sequestration.  It could be a piece of a partial solution.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #125 on: June 08, 2018, 04:34:39 PM »
Quote
No solar power needed. Wood gas motors are known since pre WWII. The charcoal production releases syngas, which can power the machines. Plus, there are tars and oils and plastics than can be produced on the fly. Old classical chemistry.

Simply burying charcoal is uneffective. It needs to be loaded with nutrients first.

The charcoal does produce a biogas/oil.  That product may have uses that offset petroleum in some niche uses where it would be difficult to use electricity.  It might make more sense to power the charcoal process with solar. 

I'm less interested in the land improvement provided by charcoal.  It does seem to improve soil with some soil types but not all.  The large issue here, IMHO, is to get carbon buried.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #126 on: June 08, 2018, 04:41:05 PM »
Quote
There may be an existing model of how to incorporate biochar into such agricultural land restoration efforts.  Under current economics, I'm skeptical that farmers can make it pay to put biochar in any quantity into the soil.

We probably should not worry about whether a biochar system like I imagine would pay for itself.  Re-sequestering carbon is something that we will probably have to pay for in order to cool the planet back down.

If we look at the larger picture any cost of a carbon sequestering program would be more than offset by avoided storm, drought, flooding damage.  If we could make it pay for itself, even partially, that's icing on the cake.

jai mitchell

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #127 on: June 08, 2018, 05:18:44 PM »
My city mobilization plan calls for intensive urban capture of all foodwastes and greenwastes to be incorporated into a comprehensive digesting and composting program.  Currently the Halifax Regional Municipality is generating about 75,000 tonnes of compost for delivery per year with a total population of 350,000.

The references in my plan indicate that the utilization of foodwastes in digestion, with biogas capture for off solar peak generation use and the combination of the efffluent waste with greenwaste composting that is mixed with biochar produces a much greater soil carbon retention rate than simply burying biochar, by orders of decades.

Quote
10. The development of regenerative agriculture as a means to offset current greenhouse gas emissions is fundamental to restoring a safe climate. (Rodale Institute 2014) The adaption of biochar as a secondary feedstock has been demonstrated to increase soil fertility and to greatly extend the retention of carbon in soils. (Bolan 2012) The specific application of this strategy toward urban agriculture environments results in increased soil fertility, local resiliency, regional economic development and improvements in groundwater retention and aquifer recharge. (Rhodes 2017)

Rodale Institute. 2014. "Regenerative Organic Agriculture and Climate Change ‐ A Down‐to‐Earth
Solution to Global Warming." Kurtztown, PA: The Rodale Institute, April 17.

Bolan, N S. 2012. "Stabilization of carbon in composts and biochars in relation to carbon sequestration and soil fertility." Elsevier Science of the Total Environment 424 264‐270.

Rhodes, Chrisopher J. 2017. "The imperative for regenerative agriculture." Science Progress Vol 100, Number 1 pp 80‐129.

----
on a global scale the potential for biochar as a method of sequestering carbon in agriculture is estimated to be between 1 and 5 gigatonnes of carbon per year.

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aabf9b

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Martin Gisser

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #128 on: June 08, 2018, 05:50:21 PM »
Quote
No solar power needed. Wood gas motors are known since pre WWII. The charcoal production releases syngas, which can power the machines. Plus, there are tars and oils and plastics than can be produced on the fly. Old classical chemistry.

Simply burying charcoal is uneffective. It needs to be loaded with nutrients first.

The charcoal does produce a biogas/oil.
Then it would be sub optimal char coal for agriculture, with no open pore space for soil microbial life, etc.  As a soil improvement, serious biochar would also increase soil organic matter, thus effectively sequestering even more carbon, perhaps 2x as much in total, and even more in reforestation.

The good old wood gas motor runs on wood, not char coal. It could be optimised and miniaturized. E.g. an electrified wood pellet micro gas turbine electricity generator for the hybrid car of the 21st century. (Tesla etc. is 20th century :) lame tech.)  According to my humble kitchen desk experimental estimates, you just need to sacrifice one passenger seat for such a thing to get as much electricity as the whole battery pack can hold (plus heat for car heating in winter). 15kg gives up to 17kWh plus perfect biochar:
http://www.azimuthproject.org/azimuth/show/Experiments+in+biochar

I'm talking about this stuff since 2010 and don't expect any serious engineer to bite the bait any time soon...

Bob Wallace

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #129 on: June 08, 2018, 05:57:37 PM »
I'm familiar with the use of biochar for soil improvement.  If biochar could be generated and economically transported to where it would be useful, that's a bonus.  But the issue is Carbon Capture and Storage.

Getting carbon out of the air/oceans and back where it is no longer part of our GHG/climate change problem.


Martin Gisser

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #130 on: June 08, 2018, 06:16:49 PM »
But the issue is Carbon Capture and Storage.

Getting carbon out of the air/oceans and back where it is no longer part of our GHG/climate change problem.
Biochar in agriculture and desert afforestation is the only technically serious way of gigaton scale CCS. All else are rocket scientists' wet dreams, IMHO.  Well, practically, given the machine-thinking mental degradation of current human civilization, it is the agri-revolutionary's wet dream... :)

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #131 on: June 08, 2018, 06:18:44 PM »
But the issue is Carbon Capture and Storage.

Getting carbon out of the air/oceans and back where it is no longer part of our GHG/climate change problem.
Biochar in agriculture and desert afforestation is the only technically serious way of gigaton scale CCS. All else are rocket scientists' wet dreams, IMHO.  Well, practically, given the machine-thinking mental degradation of current human civilization, it is the agri-revolutionary's wet dream... :)

Do you have any ideas as to how to remove carbon from our atmosphere and oceans?

(There's a thread for agriculture IIRC.)

Martin Gisser

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2018, 11:55:36 PM »
Do you have any ideas as to how to remove carbon from our atmosphere and oceans?
1) Let photosynthesis convert it to wood (or hemp, or grass, ...).
2) Convert wood to (sufficiently) stable biochar (*) by suitable pyrolysis.

2+) Harvest energy as byproduct, reducing fossil-carbon footprint

3) Remove even more C by intelligently using the bio-char in agriculture and forestry to build up soil organic carbon: Increased water and nutrient retention, plus anaerobic pockets to mobilize P, plus an extra N cycle, ...

Natural example (millenia of prairie fires): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem
Human-made example (pre-Columbian civilization that terra-formed the Amazon jungle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta


--------------
(*) Biochar is different to standard char coal. It is more porous, as more tars and oils are burned off. Plus, it should be quenched with water to gain water holding capacity. I produce it stone age style in my garden fire pit.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #133 on: June 13, 2018, 12:44:33 AM »
But the issue is Carbon Capture and Storage.

Getting carbon out of the air/oceans and back where it is no longer part of our GHG/climate change problem.
Biochar in agriculture and desert afforestation is the only technically serious way of gigaton scale CCS. All else are rocket scientists' wet dreams, IMHO.  Well, practically, given the machine-thinking mental degradation of current human civilization, it is the agri-revolutionary's wet dream... :)

Do you have any ideas as to how to remove carbon from our atmosphere and oceans?

(There's a thread for agriculture IIRC.)

For carbon removal from oceans, there's kelp and seashell farming.  I started a topic on it a few months ago:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2275.0.html

Sleepy

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #134 on: June 18, 2018, 06:55:34 AM »
This article is better suited here.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/6/14/17445622/direct-air-capture-air-to-fuels-carbon-dioxide-engineering
Quote
To state the bottom line clearly: The ability to pull carbon out of the air is not a silver bullet. It is not the cheapest or most effective way to fight climate change. It won‘t allow us to bypass any of the hard work of reducing our emissions.
Quote
In the end, DAC, like most clean energy technologies, is neither a silver bullet nor bullshit. It’s just a promising development in a world that needs all the promising developments it can get.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2018, 10:13:55 AM »
Bunch-O-vids from the International Conference on Negative CO2 Emissions.


James Hansen
Negative CO2 emissions - why, when and how much?



Anders Lyngfelt
The Necessity and the Allure of Negative CO2 Emissions – A Question of Balance.



Sally Benson
Geological storage of carbon dioxide for negative emissions.



Sabine Fuss
What we know and do not know about negative emissions.



Detlef van Vuuren
An integrated assessment modeling perspective on negative CO2 emissions: Why do most models find NETs so attractive?



Oliver Geden
Integration of Carbon Dioxide Removal into the European Union's climate policy.



Jen Wilcox
Direct Air Capture.



Pete Smith
Negative emissions from soil management.



Phil Renforth
Enhanced Weathering.



Me? I'm going out for some real Direct Air Capture!!  :)
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gerontocrat

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #136 on: July 15, 2018, 11:53:20 AM »
The pavlov's dog solution to a problem - never do less, always do more.

Motorway crowded? Widen the road.
Airport crowded? More runways and terminals.
Too much CO2 ? Make a new industry to capture carbon.

Tears by bedtime? But when will be bedtime?
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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2018, 11:49:50 PM »
Countries to try geoengineering first: China or India

Negative emissions: People will try everything ( that makes sense or not )

Enhanced weathering: without crushing stones it does not work. Crashing stones takes a lot of energy...
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #138 on: October 31, 2018, 07:30:49 AM »
Try everything is the scary part.
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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #139 on: October 31, 2018, 08:58:03 AM »
Here is also an article in the french press about carbon capture and storage.
https://abonnes.lemonde.fr/climat/article/2018/10/31/climat-le-mirage-des-emissions-negatives_5376851_1652612.html?xtor=RSS-3208?xtor=RSS-3208
Nothing new, they see forests as the best available technology right now.

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #140 on: October 31, 2018, 09:13:44 AM »
Increase biomass 2-20 times? From #114 above:


Add Bolsonaro.
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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #141 on: November 25, 2018, 01:04:31 PM »
Quote
How to Convert Climate-Changing Carbon Dioxide into Plastics and Other Products

https://news.rutgers.edu/how-convert-climate-changing-carbon-dioxide-plastics-and-other-products/20181120#.W_qM3GhKiUn

Quote
Rutgers scientists have developed catalysts that can convert carbon dioxide – the main cause of global warming – into plastics, fabrics, resins and other products.

The electrocatalysts are the first materials, aside from enzymes, that can turn carbon dioxide and water into carbon building blocks containing one, two, three or four carbon atoms with more than 99 percent efficiency. Two of the products created by the researchers – methylglyoxal (C3) and 2,3-furandiol (C4) – can be used as precursors for plastics, adhesives and pharmaceuticals. Toxic formaldehyde could be replaced by methylglyoxal, which is safer.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #142 on: November 25, 2018, 01:17:19 PM »
Quote
How to Convert Climate-Changing Carbon Dioxide into Plastics and Other Products

https://news.rutgers.edu/how-convert-climate-changing-carbon-dioxide-plastics-and-other-products/20181120#.W_qM3GhKiUn

Quote
Rutgers scientists have developed catalysts that can convert carbon dioxide – the main cause of global warming – into plastics, fabrics, resins and other products.

The electrocatalysts are the first materials, aside from enzymes, that can turn carbon dioxide and water into carbon building blocks containing one, two, three or four carbon atoms with more than 99 percent efficiency. Two of the products created by the researchers – methylglyoxal (C3) and 2,3-furandiol (C4) – can be used as precursors for plastics, adhesives and pharmaceuticals. Toxic formaldehyde could be replaced by methylglyoxal, which is safer.
Let's turn CO2 into plastics

What a wonderful solution. (Goes in search of the sarcasm emoji)
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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #143 on: November 25, 2018, 01:46:07 PM »
It may significantly lower the cost of CCS if the CO2 can be converted to something very useful, like plastic. Plastic disposal is a whole different problem that must also be solved.
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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #144 on: November 25, 2018, 02:52:15 PM »
Hemp has 50,000 uses
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #145 on: November 25, 2018, 05:17:14 PM »
Arch, I get your point about usability, but do you really have no concerns about plastic pollution?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_pollution
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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #146 on: November 25, 2018, 06:47:44 PM »
Arch, I get your point about usability, but do you really have no concerns about plastic pollution?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_pollution

Some plastics are necessary.  Think: medical supplies.  Appliance parts. Circuit boards!
Have you not watched ‘The Andromeda Strain’?  ;) 
We need plastic.  Just, much less of it.  And preferably not sourced from fossil fuels.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 06:57:34 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #147 on: November 28, 2018, 05:28:08 PM »
Scientists achieve direct electrocatalytic reduction of CO2, raising hopes for smart carbon capture
EureaAlert! released Nov. 28, 2018

Quote
Chemists at Tokyo Institute of Technology (Tokyo Tech) propose an innovative way to achieve carbon capture using a rhenium-based electrocatalytic system that is capable of reducing low-concentration CO2 (even 1%) with high selectivity and durability, which is a new potential technology to enable direct utilization of CO2 in exhaust gases from heavy industries.

In their study published in Chemical Science, Ishitani and colleagues including Hiromu Kumagai and Tetsuya Nishikawa drew on decades of work on honing the capabilities of a rhenium-based catalyst, and demonstrated its ability to reduce low-concentration CO2 in the presence of a chemical called triethanolamine (TEOA).

Compared to many previous studies that have focused on reducing pure CO2, few have explored how to improve direct capture of low-concentration CO2 -- a topic that warrants further investigation, considering that plants harness low concentrations of CO2 (about 400 ppm, that is 0.04% of the atmosphere) and exhaust gases from heavy industries typically contain low levels of CO2 (around 3-13%).

By avoiding the need for additional energy-consuming condensation processes, their strategy, if scaled up, could provide a more viable, environmentally friendly solution to CO2 capture in many settings.

In a series of experiments to assess electrocatalytic activity, the researchers found that at a CO2 concentration of 1%, the rhenium-based catalyst showed very high selectivity (94%) towards carbon monoxide (CO) formation.

A likely reason behind the high performance, the researchers say, is the efficient insertion of CO2 into the rhenium-oxygen bond.
...
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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #148 on: November 28, 2018, 07:20:14 PM »
Plastics make up a small amount of fossil fuel use, roughly 3-5%
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/hamman1/

So, people could still build plastics from fossil fuels if the other uses were curtailed. However, the problem of plastic pollution would still be around.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #149 on: December 04, 2018, 08:07:05 PM »
”If Solidia’s concrete-making technology succeeds in gaining traction around the world, it could be a way of binding up large quantities of carbon dioxide in roads and other structures.”

Betting on a new way to make concrete that doesn’t pollute
Quote
Because of the high heat and large amounts of energy needed as well as the chemical processes involved, making conventional or Portland cement — a process which requires high temperature kilns — produces as much as 7 percent of total global CO2 emissions. On a ton for ton basis, cement plants spew more carbon dioxide than any other manufacturing process, according to the International Energy Agency. Taking on cement making is “quite key from a decarbonization perspective,” said Araceli Fernandez Pales, a senior energy technology analyst at the agency, which is based in Paris.

Solidia claims it can reduce as much as 70 percent of that pollution by using different chemical formulas and smarter procedures to make cement. Ordinarily, for instance, concrete is cured or hardened in a reaction using water and steam. Solidia uses carbon dioxide instead.

At the end of the production line at the concrete plant, a fork lift operator stacks the trays of paving blocks like baked bread in what look like shipping containers. Carbon dioxide, collected from the flues of industrial plants, is pumped in from a nearby tank in amounts regulated by a system using sensors and computer software. Through a chemical reaction the CO2 is incorporated in synthetic limestone instead of being released into the atmosphere. The Solidia blocks are ready for use in 24 hours — a big potential advantage over ordinary pavers, which require a couple of weeks to harden. ...
Quote
In other words, if a block breaks on the patio, the house will not fall down. Applications like reinforced concrete or mix poured from trucks are more complicated with more complex regulation and, thus, for down the road.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/climate/betting-on-a-new-way-to-make-concrete-that-doesnt-pollute.html#click=https://t.co/xuFTnPiBFn
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