Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)  (Read 38545 times)

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #200 on: June 23, 2019, 11:55:35 PM »
Big companies are not existential threats to the plant's living flora and fauna.

Big Oil knew what was going to happen to the climate long ago and instead of adapting they spent dollars on lobbying and funding the merchants of doubt.

German Big Auto lobbied for emission tests they could fake with software and then faked them with software. OK the emissions mainly kill the poor living next to the roads but in a way they are fauna too.

So your claim is false...and we didn't even get to big Chem.



You added context which was not part of my comment.  I was talking about the size of companies, not the behavior of specific companies. 

A large number of small oil and coal companies could do as much damage as a smaller number of large companies.

 

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #201 on: June 24, 2019, 12:00:13 AM »
A decentralized power production is a great tool for economic justice in this sector.

Nice if we get it but a side issue: Utility scale solar is much cheaper than rooftop. There are advantages to rooftop - it tends to be local so less transmission losses. But if these benefits are not sufficient to outweigh the extra costs is it really sensible to put a preference for decentralised ahead of the cost of installation disadvantage. Lots of people needing to make investment decisions could well be a big factor in slowing things down. Shouldn't we be prioritising speed to get to say 70% renewable electricity then minimising cost to get there and only after that other nice to have like decentralised power production?

Kind of hard to 'decentralize' 140 meter hub height wind turbines and hydro plants by putting them on people's rooftops and in their back yards.  We need that stuff in order to keep the cost of electricity low enough to push out fossil fuels.  Wind turbines are built by large companies, not something you can build in your basement shop.  And large dams are very large construction projects.

BTW, I am not advocating for damming more rivers.  Just wanted to get that in before one our our 'hair on fire' members suffered a stroke.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2073
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 17209
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #202 on: June 24, 2019, 04:13:39 AM »
Humans could of course also use much less energy. No more energy affluence. That way all the extra green energy, freed by us through being frugal (and happier), can be used for CCS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frugality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #203 on: June 24, 2019, 05:37:11 AM »
Humans could of course also use much less energy.

Many certainly could.  How do you propose getting the high energy users to cut way back on their energy use?

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2073
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 17209
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #204 on: June 24, 2019, 06:44:06 AM »
That's a good question Bob. I don't know if there is an answer, a solution, a way of convincing people to change. My take is, either the high energy users, the rich, change voluntarily or they change unvoluntarily (climate catastrophy, societal collapse, food-, water-, wars etc). My understanding of rich humans is that the change will most likely be unvoluntarily.
With rich people I mean all consumerists, 'accumulationists'.
Consumerism
Anti-consumerism

It could start with banning all advertisements and marketing.
After that, let's see what remains of the Internet.... Oops, 'everything' seems dependent on accelerated accumulation  :o
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #205 on: June 24, 2019, 06:51:55 AM »
Nice if we get it but a side issue: Utility scale solar is much cheaper than rooftop.

I don't know how this would be, but don't have numbers at hand. Do you have a comparison by chance?

Quote
Lots of people needing to make investment decisions could well be a big factor in slowing things down.

As i outlined in my previous post, this is not the case. I can say that because i've seen it with my own eyes. It happened in Germany.

When you have a cheap loan and get subsidies the credit is repaid in 5-10 years. The solar cells produce power for 20-30 years or even longer. This is a no-brainer deal. There is no stock with a better yield. When the subsidies in Germany were active,  you could see rooftop solar installed in an astonishing speed.

Quote
Shouldn't we be prioritising speed to get to say 70% renewable electricity

Yes, this is why i'm arguing for this concept.

Also, it must be 100%!




b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #206 on: June 24, 2019, 07:01:09 AM »
Kind of hard to 'decentralize' 140 meter hub height wind turbines and hydro plants by putting them on people's rooftops and in their back yards.  We need that stuff in order to keep the cost of electricity low enough to push out fossil fuels.  Wind turbines are built by large companies, not something you can build in your basement shop.  And large dams are very large construction projects.

Why can't a farmer buy a wind turbine and install it on their land? Why can't cities do that? Why does it need to be a big company for that?

I'm asking because this is exactly what happened in Germany. Now you tell me it's not possible.

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #207 on: June 24, 2019, 07:07:20 AM »
banning all advertisements and marketing

That would be heaven on earth. :)

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #208 on: June 24, 2019, 07:52:24 AM »
That's a good question Bob. I don't know if there is an answer, a solution, a way of convincing people to change. My take is, either the high energy users, the rich, change voluntarily or they change unvoluntarily (climate catastrophy, societal collapse, food-, water-, wars etc). My understanding of rich humans is that the change will most likely be unvoluntarily.
With rich people I mean all consumerists, 'accumulationists'.
Consumerism
Anti-consumerism

It could start with banning all advertisements and marketing.
After that, let's see what remains of the Internet.... Oops, 'everything' seems dependent on accelerated accumulation  :o

If we wait for things to get so bad that the rich change involuntarily due to climate catastrophe the rest of us will be toast.  The rich will have means of survival that few others will have. 

I'm not sure how banning advertisements and marketing would lower energy use.  Perhaps it would put a small dent in consuming, but certainly not enough to save our bacon.  But suppose it could.  How would you go about banning advertisements and marketing?

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #209 on: June 24, 2019, 07:58:10 AM »
Kind of hard to 'decentralize' 140 meter hub height wind turbines and hydro plants by putting them on people's rooftops and in their back yards.  We need that stuff in order to keep the cost of electricity low enough to push out fossil fuels.  Wind turbines are built by large companies, not something you can build in your basement shop.  And large dams are very large construction projects.

Why can't a farmer buy a wind turbine and install it on their land? Why can't cities do that? Why does it need to be a big company for that?

I'm asking because this is exactly what happened in Germany. Now you tell me it's not possible.

A farmer could buy a big wind turbine and put it on their land.  Who would manufacture the wind turbine?  What kind of company could the farmer call on to haul in monster blades and stand a 140 meter tower? 

What happened in Germany is that the economics worked out so that rooftop solar was very attractive and lots of people installed.  But the panels and inverters were not made in a little shop around the corner.  It takes factories.


b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #210 on: June 24, 2019, 08:02:34 AM »
Quote
If we wait for things to get so bad that the rich change involuntarily due to climate catastrophe the rest of us will be toast.  The rich will have means of survival that few others will have.

Bob, this is what i don't understand. You are totally thinking in the right direction here. Yet, you are also arguing for big companies producing rich people, not distributing wealth throughout the whole economy only a few posts upstream.

Allow me, with all due respect, to point out, that you have a massive cognitive dissonance here.

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #211 on: June 24, 2019, 08:09:53 AM »
Who would manufacture the wind turbine?  What kind of company could the farmer call on to haul in monster blades and stand a 140 meter tower?

Well, you buy one! A modern wind turbine is ~1mio Euro including delivery and installation. That's not an extraordinary occurrence. A bank would give the loan without hassle because they know it's a good investment. From the profits you earn you can afford maintenance cost. You call the contractor and they show up when you need them.

I don't even get your point to be honest. Do you think a wind turbine manufacturer would only sell to big companies? That makes no sense.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #212 on: June 24, 2019, 08:42:01 AM »
Who would manufacture the wind turbine?  What kind of company could the farmer call on to haul in monster blades and stand a 140 meter tower?

Well, you buy one! A modern wind turbine is ~1mio Euro including delivery and installation. That's not an extraordinary occurrence. A bank would give the loan without hassle because they know it's a good investment. From the profits you earn you can afford maintenance cost. You call the contractor and they show up when you need them.

I don't even get your point to be honest. Do you think a wind turbine manufacturer would only sell to big companies? That makes no sense.

You're going to have to purchase the turbine from a big company.  The bank that floats the loan is going to have to be pretty large to am million dollar loans.  I't going to take a big company to do the hauling and installation because it takes size to be able to afford the equipment.

What I'm getting at here is the desire from several on this site to do away with big companies and capitalism.  There are just a lot of things that can be done on a small scale, we need big businesses for some things.

Let me suggest that it is not the size of the business but how the business "behaves".  If a big business treats it's customers well, treats it's employees well, doesn't pollute, doesn't get involved in politics/elections, doesn't engage in anticompetitive practices, and pays a fair amount in taxes where's the harm in the business being large?


b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #213 on: June 24, 2019, 09:22:03 AM »
we need big businesses for some things.

I don't disagree with that Bob. I'm pointing out, that the energy sector is different.

Of course, you need (biggish) companies to produce things. I'm not a fan of capitalism as you might have picked up, but i do see the positive aspects of free markets. If one company produces big amounts of a thing, they can do it efficiently.

In the energy sector though, you don't necessarily have efficiency gains in centralized production when it comes to renewables. On the contrary actually. A power grid with 100% renewables works better if it is decentralized.

So here you have the chance to portray this decentralised nature on the technical level also to the economic level. You have the chance to direct the market into a favourable state with no legislation at all.

Again, i'm not saying this applies to any kind of production. All my arguments here are not a generalisation in this regard. They are about the energy transition towards renewables.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #214 on: June 24, 2019, 09:57:01 AM »
Quote
A power grid with 100% renewables works better if it is decentralized

A renewable power grid works better if the turbines and solar panels are spread around the harvest area.

The grid works the same whether each turbine is owned by one person or one huge company owns all the turbines.


b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #215 on: June 24, 2019, 10:20:04 AM »
A renewable power grid works better if the turbines and solar panels are spread around the harvest area.

The grid works the same whether each turbine is owned by one person or one huge company owns all the turbines.

Yes, decentralized actually means "the turbines and solar panels are spread around the harvest area" in this context.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2073
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 17209
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #216 on: June 24, 2019, 11:02:49 AM »
How would you go about banning advertisements and marketing?

*  Make it compulsory to tell the complete truth. Advertisements and marketing will dwindle and disappear.
*  Inflict morality on companies, businesses, commerce.
*  Stop presenting companies as equal to a human being in court.
*  Forbid lobbying! Humans can influence policy 1x per 4 or 5 year, others (companies, rich people etc.) every single day: >2500x
*  Start with scientific policy making. What were the results of previous policies -> analyse and adjust. Transparancy. e.g. obviously Privatisation has been a disaster. Roll it back. Renationalize so government regains control. How to roll back globalisation?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #217 on: June 24, 2019, 11:19:12 AM »
How would you go about banning advertisements and marketing?

IMHO it must be possible for a person to avoid ads.

When i don't want to see ads in magazines, i can stop reading magazines with ads.
For internet use, i can install an adblocker.
I can switch channels when the TV shows ads.

Those are examples when ads are avoidable and therefore shouldn't be banned.

When it comes to the public room though, i can't avoid placard and billboards. There they should be banned.

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2705
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 156
  • Likes Given: 53
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #218 on: June 24, 2019, 03:28:17 PM »
Nice if we get it but a side issue: Utility scale solar is much cheaper than rooftop.

I don't know how this would be, but don't have numbers at hand. Do you have a comparison by chance?
https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-120-vfinal.pdf

p2
Solar PV—Thin Film Utility Scale $36-44
Solar PV—Rooftop Residential  $160-267

'Only' a factor of at least 4.4 times more expensive!

How?
Lots of small sites,
Lots of grid tie ins to do,
An inverter needed for each site rather than fewer inverters efficiently used.
Lots of salesmen visits to do to convince householders it is worth doing.
...

I would expect residential rooftop to be more expensive, but a factor of 4.4 does seem a lot.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 04:23:01 PM by crandles »

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3119
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 585
  • Likes Given: 213
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #219 on: June 24, 2019, 03:53:27 PM »
Regarding which method is fastest, cheapest and best, I suspect an old NASA proverb applies:
“Good, fast, cheap...pick two”.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

bluice

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 403
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 406
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #220 on: June 24, 2019, 04:36:43 PM »
Economies of scale work in renewable energy just the same as on every other industry.

Archimid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3091
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 743
  • Likes Given: 195
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #221 on: June 24, 2019, 05:39:52 PM »
We need all of the above. We need for anyone that can afford it to become energy independent, at the same time as the maximum amount of renewable energy sources and storage are deployed at a grid scale.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

bluice

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 403
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 406
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #222 on: June 24, 2019, 05:45:22 PM »
TBH I don’t need to be personally energy independent. I want to have power when I need it, at a competitive cost and I want it to be zero carbon.

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #223 on: June 24, 2019, 05:52:08 PM »

https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-120-vfinal.pdf

How?
Lots of small sites,
Lots of grid tie ins to do,
An inverter needed for each site rather than fewer inverters efficiently used.
Lots of salesmen visits to do to convince householders it is worth doing.


Thanks for the link, just used it myself. :)

These arguments are convincing. I never thought it is that big of a difference given it's the same modules we are talking about.

I looked to find numbers for Germany including subsidies but didn't find anything so far.

Archimid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3091
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 743
  • Likes Given: 195
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #224 on: June 24, 2019, 06:04:22 PM »
TBH I don’t need to be personally energy independent. I want to have power when I need it, at a competitive cost and I want it to be zero carbon.

If you want to have power when you need it, you need to be energy independent. If the grid goes down and you have no backup power, you won't have power when you need it. Given climate change, your grid will go down with increasing frequency. Thus back up power is needed.

I understand that energy independence and having back up power is not the same thing, but energy independence should be the goal. Energy independence is as close to free energy as we ever going to get. If can make it so everyone have their own source of renewable energy suited for their needs right on site and it is going to be darn close to free energy.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #225 on: June 24, 2019, 06:16:15 PM »
How would you go about banning advertisements and marketing?

*  Make it compulsory to tell the complete truth. Advertisements and marketing will dwindle and disappear.
*  Inflict morality on companies, businesses, commerce.
*  Stop presenting companies as equal to a human being in court.
*  Forbid lobbying! Humans can influence policy 1x per 4 or 5 year, others (companies, rich people etc.) every single day: >2500x
*  Start with scientific policy making. What were the results of previous policies -> analyse and adjust. Transparancy. e.g. obviously Privatisation has been a disaster. Roll it back. Renationalize so government regains control. How to roll back globalisation?

My question is more basic.  How would you implement any of those changes?

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #226 on: June 24, 2019, 06:24:53 PM »
TBH I don’t need to be personally energy independent. I want to have power when I need it, at a competitive cost and I want it to be zero carbon.

If you want to have power when you need it, you need to be energy independent. If the grid goes down and you have no backup power, you won't have power when you need it. Given climate change, your grid will go down with increasing frequency. Thus back up power is needed.

I understand that energy independence and having back up power is not the same thing, but energy independence should be the goal. Energy independence is as close to free energy as we ever going to get. If can make it so everyone have their own source of renewable energy suited for their needs right on site and it is going to be darn close to free energy.

Germany's grid outages add up to about 12 minutes per year.  Grids can be very reliable.

The idea of everyone being free of the grid and energy independent is, well, have you actually thought that through? 

Do you have any experience with not being grid connected? 

Do you have any idea what it would take to replace the grid with billions of standalone systems?

I've been off the grid for almost 30 years.  I'm off the grid because hooking up would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.  (That's one of the things that made my land affordable.)  Most people just wouldn't want to be off the grid and have to run their own utility company.  If I could switch over to grid power I would.

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5796
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1949
  • Likes Given: 1720
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #227 on: June 24, 2019, 06:28:41 PM »
B_l, while I echo your sentiments regarding harmful big business, lying oil companies, limiting/banning advertising, decentralization of energy production, self sufficiency and more, I must  say that my limited experience in life has shown that solving two problems at once is vastly more difficult than separating them and solving each of them independently of the other. If we wait to solve climate change so that the solution will be according to good principles, the solution will come slower and less guaranteed. I'd much rather solve climate change and have rich oil companies maintain their wealth, than have none of both. I'd much rather have a centralized grid of 100% renewables than a decentralized renewable generation of 30% or 50%. And so on. We don't have time to be anything else other than completely pragmatic.

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3442
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 635
  • Likes Given: 318
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #228 on: June 24, 2019, 06:35:09 PM »
I don't recall there being an "off the grid - personal utility company" thread, but references to individuals doing that are scattered here and there. 

Ah, I found Off-Grid Is it really a contribution to the solution that was active in March 2013 (with a dozen posts).  Do you want to move "Off Grid" posts there?
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #229 on: June 24, 2019, 06:45:16 PM »
B_l, while I echo your sentiments regarding harmful big business, lying oil companies, limiting/banning advertising, decentralization of energy production, self sufficiency and more, I must  say that my limited experience in life has shown that solving two problems at once is vastly more difficult than separating them and solving each of them independently of the other. If we wait to solve climate change so that the solution will be according to good principles, the solution will come slower and less guaranteed. I'd much rather solve climate change and have rich oil companies maintain their wealth, than have none of both. I'd much rather have a centralized grid of 100% renewables than a decentralized renewable generation of 30% or 50%. And so on. We don't have time to be anything else other than completely pragmatic.

This is my stance as well.  Do not make fighting climate change harder by complicating the fight.

There are significant problems with how some businesses operate in the US, with wealth distribution, with fair pay, with women being underpaid, etc..  Deal with those problems separately from fighting climate change. 

I don't know which company would be your largest villain in terms of global warming.  Perhaps Exxon would be mine.  However if Exxon came out and said ...

Quote
We understand that our product, petroleum, is destroying the climate.  Starting right now we will phase out oil, producing only what is needed for to main transportation as transportation switches to electricity.  At the same time we will start an aggressive move to turn our company into a provider of renewable energy.

... I would welcome the change.  And once it was clear that they were following through with their pledge I'd forgive them for decades of oil production. 


b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #230 on: June 24, 2019, 06:59:02 PM »
B_l, while I echo your sentiments regarding harmful big business, lying oil companies, limiting/banning advertising, decentralization of energy production, self sufficiency and more, I must  say that my limited experience in life has shown that solving two problems at once is vastly more difficult than separating them and solving each of them independently of the other. If we wait to solve climate change so that the solution will be according to good principles, the solution will come slower and less guaranteed. I'd much rather solve climate change and have rich oil companies maintain their wealth, than have none of both. I'd much rather have a centralized grid of 100% renewables than a decentralized renewable generation of 30% or 50%. And so on. We don't have time to be anything else other than completely pragmatic.

I think i lined out why the success of renewables in Germany is a function of the exact program i described. We have 50% renewables in the grid as of today. I'm arguing for it because it sped up the energy transition. Because it is not difficult. Because you have a predictable outcome.

The good principled outcome is a byproduct! This is not the only reason i'm arguing for it.

This program creates economic incentives to install renewables for millions of people, for every house owner, for landowner and farmers, and for communes and cities. If this program was still in place today, given the prices for renewables dropped, it would be expensive not to have solar cells on your south-facing side of the rooftop.


Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #231 on: June 24, 2019, 07:28:09 PM »
The average US electricity bill is about $100/month.  The possibility of saving ten or twenty dollars a month is not enough to get most people to put out a lot of effort.

In Germany there was a subsidy program that meant if you installed solar, not only could you cut your utility costs, you could actually make a nice profit.  You could put yourself in business as an electricity provider and earn good money.

In Australia the cost of electricity was so high that installing solar save a lot of money per month, not the sort of ten/twenty dollar stuff.

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #232 on: June 24, 2019, 07:46:36 PM »
Correct, Bob. There is no one who regretted it. It was a huge success. The math just worked out for small investors like homeowners so many did it. Then the program was cancelled in part and the feed-in compensation was cut. New installations became a zero-sum game and people stopped installing solar panels.

Now with the prices for solar coming down growth has picked up again a little. >> https://www.energy-charts.de/ren_share.htm?source=solar-share&period=annual&year=all

Feed-in compensation for wind is okish, here the growth is more consistent. >> https://www.energy-charts.de/ren_share.htm?source=wind-share&period=annual&year=all

Archimid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3091
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 743
  • Likes Given: 195
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #233 on: June 24, 2019, 08:02:09 PM »
Quote
Germany's grid outages add up to about 12 minutes per year.


Good for them. Sadly as new and extreme weather patterns start to emerge more often their grid will be challenged more often, just like everyone else.

Quote
Grids can be very reliable.

Until they aren't. Fires, storms, floods, heatwaves are all increasing and with that increase comes increase pressure on the grid.


Quote
The idea of everyone being free of the grid and energy independent is, well, have you actually thought that through?


Yep. As I said, if achieved, it would be an era of unparalleled prosperity and security. Right now, it seems impossible because energy storage is still expensive. In terms of power production
with solar, for most latitudes solar provides all the energy needed right now. We don't need any other technology. As storage catches up to power generation, then the need for transmission and generation infrastructure will not be there.

Quote
Do you have any experience with not being grid connected? 

3 months without grid power at my home. I powered my home with a small inverter gasoline generator that mostly kept the fridge going and provided lights and wind fans to be able to sleep at night.  Not having power sucks, specially if the infrastructure is built under the assumption that there will always be power available.

Quote
Do you have any idea what it would take to replace the grid with billions of standalone systems?

Lots of batteries, lots of solar panels and a whole industry of installers and maintainers.


Quote
I've been off the grid for almost 30 years.  I'm off the grid because hooking up would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.  (That's one of the things that made my land affordable.)  Most people just wouldn't want to be off the grid and have to run their own utility company.  If I could switch over to grid power I would.

Having a cable that is always* on is a great thing, while the cost of home energy sources is high. As costs lower and the limits of storage and generation increase, energy independence will be ubiquitous. I don't think the technology is there yet, but it is the inevitable end result.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #234 on: June 24, 2019, 08:19:55 PM »
Quote
Germany's grid outages add up to about 12 minutes per year.


Good for them. Sadly as new and extreme weather patterns start to emerge more often their grid will be challenged more often, just like everyone else.

Fun fact: In Germany, it is required by law that every house is connected to the public grid. So, no grid free live-style available here.

And yes, power outages are a very very rare thing here. Actually, i can only remember one off the top of my head. It lasted for a couple of hours. In all of Europe, the uptime is pretty good.



Archimid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3091
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 743
  • Likes Given: 195
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #235 on: June 24, 2019, 08:27:34 PM »
Quote
Fun fact: In Germany, it is required by law that every house is connected to the public grid. So, no grid free live-style available here.


The law changes according to the times, with some lag.

Quote
And yes, power outages are a very very rare thing here. Actually, i can only remember one off the top of my head. It lasted for a couple of hours. In all of Europe, the uptime is pretty good.

Expected. I imagine that hurricane speed winds, 50C heatwaves, hail and floods are very rare too.  Sadly that low disaster frequency is likely to change with the climate and with it, the reliability of the grid.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #236 on: June 24, 2019, 08:29:53 PM »
Expected. I imagine that hurricane speed winds, 50C heatwaves, hail and floods are very rare too.  Sadly that low disaster frequency is likely to change with the climate and with it, the reliability of the grid.

Yes, by all means, nature is more forgiving here then there.

morganism

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 202
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #237 on: June 27, 2019, 10:52:49 PM »
shows that injecting air and carbon dioxide into methane ice deposits buried beneath the Gulf of Mexico could unlock vast natural gas energy resources while helping fight climate change by trapping the carbon dioxide underground.

https://phys.org/news/2019-06-natural-gas-carbon-dioxide.html

Nitrogen-Driven Chromatographic Separation During Gas Injection into Hydrate-Bearing Sediments, Water Resources Research (2019). DOI: 10.1029/2018WR023414

"In the paper, the authors showed that a process in which one type of molecule trapped in hydrate is exchanged for another (called guest molecule exchange) is a two-stage process and not a single, simultaneous process, as it was previously thought to be.

First, nitrogen breaks down the methane hydrate. Second, the carbon dioxide crystalizes into a slow-moving wave of carbon dioxide hydrate behind the escaping methane gas.

The computer simulations indicate that the process can be repeated with increasing concentrations of carbon dioxide until the reservoir becomes saturated. The authors said that unlike some methods of carbon storage, this provides a ready incentive for industry to begin storing carbon dioxide, a major driver of climate change."

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 211
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #238 on: June 27, 2019, 11:04:24 PM »
I don’t understand the storing part of it ....put CO2 plus some energy use and you get some methane out...

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #239 on: June 27, 2019, 11:06:22 PM »
shows that injecting air and carbon dioxide into methane ice deposits buried beneath the Gulf of Mexico could unlock vast natural gas energy resources while helping fight climate change by trapping the carbon dioxide underground.

https://phys.org/news/2019-06-natural-gas-carbon-dioxide.html

Nitrogen-Driven Chromatographic Separation During Gas Injection into Hydrate-Bearing Sediments, Water Resources Research (2019). DOI: 10.1029/2018WR023414

"In the paper, the authors showed that a process in which one type of molecule trapped in hydrate is exchanged for another (called guest molecule exchange) is a two-stage process and not a single, simultaneous process, as it was previously thought to be.

First, nitrogen breaks down the methane hydrate. Second, the carbon dioxide crystalizes into a slow-moving wave of carbon dioxide hydrate behind the escaping methane gas.

The computer simulations indicate that the process can be repeated with increasing concentrations of carbon dioxide until the reservoir becomes saturated. The authors said that unlike some methods of carbon storage, this provides a ready incentive for industry to begin storing carbon dioxide, a major driver of climate change."

This sounds like a suggestion to quit beating our thumb with a 20 oz hammer and switch to a 16 oz hammer. 

Leave the damn methane where it is causing no problems.  Install wind and solar faster so that we don't need to burn fossil fuels.

Mother "Thumb" would thank us.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5555
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 753
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #240 on: June 28, 2019, 08:05:02 AM »
The Japanese have been doin methane capture from hydrate for a decade or so at R&D scale. One might argue that burning the methane is better than allowing it to and enter the atmosphere. Of course, the question is how fast the methane hydrate will destabilize, absent such direct intervention ...

sidd

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #241 on: June 28, 2019, 08:22:45 AM »
The Japanese have been doin methane capture from hydrate for a decade or so at R&D scale. One might argue that burning the methane is better than allowing it to and enter the atmosphere. Of course, the question is how fast the methane hydrate will destabilize, absent such direct intervention ...

sidd

You think the oceans are going to warm enough to thaw deep water methane hydrates in the next several years? 

Until we get close to the melting point we need to leave the stuff where it is.  If we get close to the melting point then we probably have lost the battle and it will be time to move underground.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2073
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 17209
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #242 on: June 28, 2019, 01:14:00 PM »
My question is more basic.  How would you implement any of those changes?
and
... We don't have time to be anything else other than completely pragmatic.
Sorry Bob, I missed your question.
Also answering here the last sentence of oren's post.

I am convinced that you won't get anything done by keeping the systems we have. Nothing substantial will happen. Just take the 2015 Paris ageement (and the earlier pledges) and look at the Keeling curve.

This is an emergency situation. We should stop playing by 'their' book. Fundamentals must change.
Options:
 1. - change the majority to stop consuming and take personal responsibility (very unlikely)
 2. - rebellion, revolution, systems change (best option I think but also very unlikely, see 1. )
 3. - do nothing and perish in a horrendous future short life
The problem is most people are lulled into complacency: There still is time. There is hope. There still is a carbon budget.
This happens via the media and politics. The mass media (TV; Radio; Internet; Magazines) doesn't warn or give uncomfortable news because it is completely dependent on advertisements. Telling the truth costs a lot of money (right Guardian?).

What if we don't have more than a decade before the start of society collapse?
In what timeframe do you, oren, think these things (from your post) can be solved one at a time?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #243 on: June 28, 2019, 04:52:16 PM »
Quote
Options:
 1. - change the majority to stop consuming and take personal responsibility (very unlikely)
 2. - rebellion, revolution, systems change (best option I think but also very unlikely, see 1. )
 3. - do nothing and perish in a horrendous future short life

My take:

1. - essentially impossible.  At least until it's too late to avoid extreme climate change.  What we put into our atmosphere today won't make things noticeably worse until sometime in the future.  By the time people get into 'panic' mode and make large lifestyle changes we probably will have pumped more GHG into the atmosphere than we can deal with.

2. - rebellion/revolution.  If you mean an upheaval in which governments are overthrown and new governments established just seems undoable.  First, you need enough people so firmly committed that they will put their lives on the line to fight governments that control armies and police forces.  Then, if you succeed, there would be years of creating new governments so that progress could get underway.

3. - we won't do "nothing".  We are doing things right now, just not at a high enough rate.

If the US (using your favorite whipping boy) were to increase the amount of wind/solar installed in best years by less than 2x we'd be done with fossil fuels in 20 years.  In 2017 the US produced 2.2% more electricity with renewables and 2.2% less electricity with fossil fuels.  We're now about 60% FF.  If we converted 3% of our electricity generation to renewables per year fossil fuels would be gone in 20 years.

The issue, IMO, is how to move the transition faster.  We will not transition rapidly enough to prevent harm from climate change, we are already being hurt.  The issue is how bad will things get before we manage to get greenhouse gas emissions under control.  And whether we are able to develop reasonable ways to pull carbon back out of our atmosphere and oceans.




nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2073
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 17209
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #244 on: June 28, 2019, 06:21:48 PM »
Thank you for your relpy. I disagree with your 3., seeing the Keeling curve and paleoclimate. It'll come. You have to remove the stuff.
Quote
If the US (using your favorite whipping boy)
The U.S. of A. stands out like a sore thumb. Of course that gets attention. Furthermore this is, in my perception, a majority north-america centered forum. If it was international we wouldn't be seeing the imperial unit system, to give an example.
It is almost as if most people from the U.S.A. think the world stops at their borders and their TV contexts.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5796
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1949
  • Likes Given: 1720
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #245 on: June 28, 2019, 06:44:19 PM »
What if we don't have more than a decade before the start of society collapse?
In what timeframe do you, oren, think these things (from your post) can be solved one at a time?
I expect the civilizational collapse mid-century, so about 3 decades away. But regardless of the timeline, I am not aware of any quick solution that can save us in time, asuming current trajectories and human behavior. The best we can do is accelerate what we are already doing (renewable energy etc.), and hoping to minimize the damage.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #246 on: June 28, 2019, 06:50:23 PM »
Thank you for your relpy. I disagree with your 3., seeing the Keeling curve and paleoclimate. It'll come. You have to remove the stuff.
Quote
If the US (using your favorite whipping boy)
The U.S. of A. stands out like a sore thumb. Of course that gets attention. Furthermore this is, in my perception, a majority north-america centered forum. If it was international we wouldn't be seeing the imperial unit system, to give an example.
It is almost as if most people from the U.S.A. think the world stops at their borders and their TV contexts.

You disagree that the amount of electricity generated by renewables is not increasing?  Or that people are not increasing the number of EVs purchased?  Or do you disagree with the 60% and 2.2% numbers I posted?  With what do you disagree?

As for the last part of  your post, honestly, many people in the US do somewhat think only inside the US.  If you haven't spent time here you probably have no idea of how geographically isolated the US is from the rest of the world.  If I want to go to another country I have to drive two long days to get there.  In a single day of driving in Europe one can pass through multiple countries. 

Most Americans don't get long vacations.  And there's lots to see and do inside the country.  Travel to other continents is not a common thing.  Travel north and you encounter a fringe of population along Canada's southern border.  And the people there are very similar to Americans.  Travel south and the first thing you encounter is a lot of desert.  It's necessary to travel deeply into Mexico before one encounters much of the Mexican culture.  People from other countries come to the US but, in general, we don't interact with them.  They spend their time running from tourist attraction to tourist attraction, not interacting with regular Americans.

Other than a few British TV sitcoms that have been played on public TV (which most people don't watch) European movies and TV haven't made their presence know here.  The flow is in the opposite direction.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #247 on: June 28, 2019, 06:54:11 PM »
What if we don't have more than a decade before the start of society collapse?
In what timeframe do you, oren, think these things (from your post) can be solved one at a time?
I expect the civilizational collapse mid-century, so about 3 decades away. But regardless of the timeline, I am not aware of any quick solution that can save us in time, asuming current trajectories and human behavior. The best we can do is accelerate what we are already doing (renewable energy etc.), and hoping to minimize the damage.

What makes the difference between painful damage and civilization collapse?  By civilization collapse I assume you mean something of a Mad Max world or a return the the Dark Ages.  What is the tipping point you envision?

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2073
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 17209
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #248 on: June 28, 2019, 07:13:22 PM »
Quote
You disagree that the amount of electricity generated by renewables is not increasing?
Quote
the Keeling curve and paleoclimate
You disagree that the amount of CO2 is still increasing (record year 2018) and perhaps, in the near future, get help from living nature? You disagree that paleoclimate records say that if there's this amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, science says: These (pliocene) things have happened and therefore will happen again?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2073
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 320
  • Likes Given: 17209
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #249 on: June 28, 2019, 07:18:15 PM »
What makes the difference between painful damage and civilization collapse?  By civilization collapse I assume you mean something of a Mad Max world or a return the the Dark Ages.  What is the tipping point you envision?
Essentials. The endpoint of the trends.
The tipping point: Hunger and thirst. Violence and unsafety, fear.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?