Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)  (Read 93212 times)

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #250 on: June 28, 2019, 07:21:07 PM »
Quote
You disagree that the amount of electricity generated by renewables is not increasing?
Quote
the Keeling curve and paleoclimate
You disagree that the amount of CO2 is still increasing (record year 2018) and perhaps, in the near future, get help from living nature? You disagree that paleoclimate records say that if there's this amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, science says: These (pliocene) things have happened and therefore will happen again?

Are you accusing me of something which I have not stated?  Please don't just make stuff up. 

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #251 on: June 28, 2019, 07:39:48 PM »
What makes the difference between painful damage and civilization collapse?  By civilization collapse I assume you mean something of a Mad Max world or a return the the Dark Ages.  What is the tipping point you envision?
Essentials. The endpoint of the trends.
The tipping point: Hunger and thirst. Violence and unsafety, fear.

That's too abstract to have any meaning.

People have been dying in very large numbers due to hunger and thirst for a long time.  Long before the climate began to change.  We may see death rates increase.  Some portion of the world's population has been living with violence , unsafety, and fear for all of recorded history and likely well before. 

The Great Famine of 1315-1317 killed an estimate 7.5 million people in Europe.
The Chalisa Famine which occured in India in 1783/84 killed 11 million.  Another famine in India a few years later killed another 11 million.
The 'Great Four' famines in China in the 1800s killed 45 million.
The famine that hit China at the end of the 1960s killed as many as 43 million.

Throughout history there have been wars that have killed millions upon millions.  As many as 65 million died in World War One.  As many as 85 million died in  World War Two.

Those things did not cause worldwide civilization collapse.  Give me something that might cause civilization collapse thirty years from now.

I will grant you that there may be some climatic consequence we have yet to identify that could really mess things up.  But since we don't know about it you can't use it as an explanation to back your claim.

Let me ask again, what would cause the collapse of civilization about 30 years from now? 

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4606
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 879
  • Likes Given: 826
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #252 on: June 28, 2019, 09:35:35 PM »
Quote
It is almost as if most people from the U.S.A. think the world stops at their borders and their TV contexts.
Are you implying it doesn't?   ;D :o ::) :P

Massive migrations from hot/wet places (Bangladesh, India, Central America, Middle East), plus a few nuclear bombs tossed here and there (in somebody's desperation), with coastal disruptions and a food scare or two plus some tropical diseases spreading 'north' making Western societies more on edge, all together may cause vigilantism to increase to the point civil society in the traditional sense ceases to exist in many places (like it does in some ghettos and in some war-torn countries today).  I think this could happen by 2050.

The "Wild West" wasn't wild everywhere.  (I very much remember Reies Tijerina (and La Alianza) doing his (their) thing in the 1960s, so that's not so very long ago!  The Wikipedia article doesn't mention their turning a New Mexican highway into a toll road, by stopping cars with a road block, deciding how rich a driver was, and extracting a toll [something like $1 if they looked middle class; $10 if they looked rich].  When the police came to arrest them, they simply got on their horses and rode off into the distance, only to start a new road block someplace else later. More of that time.)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9805
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3584
  • Likes Given: 3922
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #253 on: June 28, 2019, 11:04:38 PM »
Yeah, something like that. Food stresses, water problems, resource depletion, places becoming less livable, heat, drought, storms, flooding and SLR, but with the help of conflicts, trade wars, actual wars, populist leaders, inflation etc.

zizek

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #254 on: June 28, 2019, 11:16:13 PM »

Big companies are not existential threats to the plant's living flora and fauna.


denialism.

kassy

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8234
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2041
  • Likes Given: 1986
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #255 on: June 29, 2019, 10:39:27 PM »
India looks interesting and it is a lot of people. At some point you can not truck in enough water if the monsoons are failing.

Earlier famines are not really a reference point for 2019. Any famine now can be seen better then in the 18th century. If people know you won´t help them they will help themselves in some way.

Hunger and thirst are powerful motivators never mind having kids you know they willl just let starve. At some point you have nothing to lose and ´or die trying´ becomes an option.

Then it mixes with local ideology and it goes boom.

PS: As a radical OT thought my favourite CCS scheme is growing Azolla and weighing it down with lots of career politicians. The whole lot should be dumped into the ocean.


Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #256 on: June 29, 2019, 11:08:29 PM »
Remember to distinguish between a localized collapse and global civilization collapse.

We've already seen local civilization collapses due, at least in part, to climate change.  Syria and Sudan’s Darfur region are two conflicts that seem to be partially driven by climate change.  But think out what it would take to cause the entire world to fall into conditions that would drive us back to the stone age.  Or whatever version of civilization collapse you envision.

Think about how rapidly or not rapidly that might happen and what ways we might have to maintain the general civilization we now have, albeit perhaps on a smaller scale.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2487
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 273
  • Likes Given: 23170
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #257 on: June 30, 2019, 05:45:59 AM »
Quote
But think out what it would take to cause the entire world to fall into conditions that would drive us back to the stone age
We can't go 'back' to the stone age I think because we miss the expertise, the know-how. Almost all skills have been forgotten, especially in richer countries.

Our global interconnectedness and extreme dependence on technology makes us very vulnerable. Local collapse will have ripple on effects. I don't think 'we' can scale back. Once it goes, it goes. We don't have the resilience and redundancy like e.g. ecosystems. We've built a house of cards.
Seeing what's left of ideals and enlightenment, empathy and morals, I'd say civilisation is already collapsing.

sorry for the off-topic.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #258 on: June 30, 2019, 08:33:01 AM »
Quote
But think out what it would take to cause the entire world to fall into conditions that would drive us back to the stone age
We can't go 'back' to the stone age I think because we miss the expertise, the know-how. Almost all skills have been forgotten, especially in richer countries.

Our global interconnectedness and extreme dependence on technology makes us very vulnerable. Local collapse will have ripple on effects. I don't think 'we' can scale back. Once it goes, it goes. We don't have the resilience and redundancy like e.g. ecosystems. We've built a house of cards.
Seeing what's left of ideals and enlightenment, empathy and morals, I'd say civilisation is already collapsing.

sorry for the off-topic.

I simply don't buy into domer porn.  The total collapse of civilization due to extreme climate change is as unlikely as the other big fantasy that entertained so many a few years back, the total collapse due to peak oil.

Peak oil is no longer a danger because within a few years we could transform our transportation systems, make some unliked but tolerable changes in lifestyle, and continue on.  There was no oil cliff over which the world would have tumbled but, at worse, a decrease of affordable oil supply played out over several years.

If we screw up and allow extreme climate change we won't wake up one morning and find seas eighty feet higher and summer temperatures unbearable over the entire planet.  Those changes would happen over time and as thing became worse at least a portion of us would devise a way to survive. 

We've got the technology to protect ourselves from extreme heat and grow the food we need in controlled conditions.  We probably couldn't support billions, but we could support hundreds of thousands or millions.  And we can take our knowledge and technology with us as we retreat underground or into heavily insulated buildings during the worst of the heat.

vox_mundi

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 10163
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3510
  • Likes Given: 745
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #259 on: July 05, 2019, 06:54:17 PM »
Call for Green Burial Corridors Alongside Roads, Railways and Country Footpaths
https://phys.org/news/2019-07-green-burial-corridors-roads-railways.html

A leading public health expert is calling for a strategic initiative to develop green burial corridors alongside major transport routes because British graveyards and cemeteries are rapidly running out of room. With 500,000 deaths annually in England and Wales, it is likely that there will be no burial space left within five years.

Writing in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, Professor John Ashton points to the recent announcement of a scheme to plant 130,000 trees in urban areas as a contribution to reducing pollution and global warming. While lacking in ambition, he writes, it gives a clue as to what might be possible by joining up the dots of green environmentalism and human burial.

Open Access: John Ashton, Necropolis in crisis: housing the living is one thing, there is also a problem in housing the dead, Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine (2019)
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― anonymous

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Tom_Mazanec

  • Guest

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6774
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #261 on: July 07, 2019, 06:20:24 AM »
Re: where

i attach fig 2 b and c

sidd

Tom_Mazanec

  • Guest

Tom_Mazanec

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #263 on: July 16, 2019, 03:21:06 PM »

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2487
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 273
  • Likes Given: 23170
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #264 on: August 01, 2019, 11:17:33 AM »
"Sucking carbon out of the air is no magic fix for the climate emergency"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/01/negative-emissions-tech-climate-emergency-carbon-dioxide-emissions
By Simon Lewis, professor of global change science at University College London.

Quote:
With a range of options, we might think that negative emissions means that climate change can be tackled, and tackled fast. But evidence that these technologies can work at a small demonstration scale is causing the opposite. Negative emissions are treated as a “get out of jail free” card – a licence to keep emitting and clean up the mess later with new technologies. Politicians and their advisers love them, because they can announce a target such as 1.5C while planning to exceed it, with temperatures hopefully clawed back later in the century through negative emissions.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1455
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 210
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #265 on: August 01, 2019, 11:38:11 AM »
"Sucking carbon out of the air is no magic fix for the climate emergency"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/01/negative-emissions-tech-climate-emergency-carbon-dioxide-emissions
By Simon Lewis, professor of global change science at University College London.

Quote:
With a range of options, we might think that negative emissions means that climate change can be tackled, and tackled fast. But evidence that these technologies can work at a small demonstration scale is causing the opposite. Negative emissions are treated as a “get out of jail free” card – a licence to keep emitting and clean up the mess later with new technologies. Politicians and their advisers love them, because they can announce a target such as 1.5C while planning to exceed it, with temperatures hopefully clawed back later in the century through negative emissions.

The technology works ( actually it is easy to scrub CO2 from the air). The problem is the footprint of the facilities ( huge surface area needed ), the energy to absorb pure CO2 ( is it not negative ) and the capital needed. All around estimates are really lowballing it. The famous examples of outfits that have been seen lately in the news dont have the skills or the desire to scale them up.

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1455
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 210
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #266 on: August 01, 2019, 11:39:50 AM »
Call for Green Burial Corridors Alongside Roads, Railways and Country Footpaths
https://phys.org/news/2019-07-green-burial-corridors-roads-railways.html

A leading public health expert is calling for a strategic initiative to develop green burial corridors alongside major transport routes because British graveyards and cemeteries are rapidly running out of room. With 500,000 deaths annually in England and Wales, it is likely that there will be no burial space left within five years.

Writing in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, Professor John Ashton points to the recent announcement of a scheme to plant 130,000 trees in urban areas as a contribution to reducing pollution and global warming. While lacking in ambition, he writes, it gives a clue as to what might be possible by joining up the dots of green environmentalism and human burial.

Open Access: John Ashton, Necropolis in crisis: housing the living is one thing, there is also a problem in housing the dead, Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine (2019)

Composting is even better

Tom_Mazanec

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #267 on: August 23, 2019, 02:00:57 AM »
An overlooked solution to climate crisis
https://www.dailypioneer.com/2019/columnists/an-overlooked-solution-to-climate-crisis.html
Quote
Grasslands are, perhaps, the most neglected ecosystem in the world. However, their ability to meet the climate change challenge must galvanise nations into putting them high on the conservation agenda. The Government must take note

Grasslands across the globe,  especially in India, have played a silent but stellar role in reining in the process of climate change. But according to a study by Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) journal, climate change, pollution and various environment alterations across the globe are changing their identity. One of the key contributions made by grasslands is their inconspicuous role in containing carbon levels in the atmosphere. It is this storage capacity for carbon that makes grasslands effective warriors against climate change.


Sciguy

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1969
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 237
  • Likes Given: 188
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #268 on: August 29, 2019, 08:28:20 PM »
Here's a link to a good article about biochar and the role it can play in sequestering carbon dioxide.  The format is an interview with the CEO of a start-up company that is making bio-char from bio-mass burning.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/28/biochars-role-in-mitigating-climate-change/

Quote
Biochar is a stable form of carbon, made from woody materials in a heat and oxygen-deprived system. Conventionally, biochar has been made as a small residue of biomass power production. Each tonne of biochar contains about three tonnes of carbon dioxide. When the wood is taken and turned into a stable carbon, it can’t escape as a liquid or gas, which would happen if it were burned or decomposed.
Biochar is carbon that you can hold in your hand – like charcoal. In the natural carbon cycle, about 1% of carbon is sequestered. By making biochar of the biomass, you can sequester up to two-thirds of the carbon in the biomass. Nature already knows how to sequester carbon into the soils, but we need to learn.

Quote
I’ve read that there are over 50 known use cases for biochar, and new research comes out every month indicating a new use possibility. Could you maybe give us a few examples of the best use cases?
Our first use case is urban landscaping. Plants are under severe stress in urban areas and campuses with not much space to live and runoff water can have a lot of toxins.
Stockholm did a very successful trial where biochar was planted in the root system of the trees as a stormwater filter, aerating the roots and providing some room to move about, while filtering the toxins out.
To me, the most powerful application for biochar is raising the pH of acidic soils, helping the soil ‘microbiome’ by co-composting to put into the ground. This way, biochar can have a long-lasting effect on the living part of the soil, and stabilize the nutrients.
Other use cases include stopping nutrient or other matter leaching into waterways (biofilters), water cleansing, speeding up compost, and environmental remediation from toxins.

Freegrass

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3825
  • Autodidacticism is a complicated word...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 951
  • Likes Given: 1251
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #269 on: June 08, 2020, 07:17:26 PM »
Is Olivine a solution against Climate Change and Ocean Acidification?

https://projectvesta.org/
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #270 on: June 08, 2020, 08:39:40 PM »
Nope.

morganism

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1691
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 215
  • Likes Given: 124
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #271 on: June 15, 2020, 11:30:50 PM »
Great paper on easy nano grain CO2 catalyst, made by simple flame pyrosis. Easy and scalable, this can create a flexible syngas product, and you can "dial" in the CO and H quantities to make fuels or plastics.

This could get rid of oil and gas production in a year or so..... especially if we started switching over to methanol and electric right now, and not subsidizing fossil fuel cars and companies anymore.

"It means it can be used industrially, it can be scaled, it’s super quick to make the materials and very effective,” she says.

“We don’t need to worry about complicated synthesis techniques that use really expensive metals and precursors – we can burn it and in 10 minutes have these particles ready to go. And by controlling how we burn it, we can control those ratios of desired syngas building blocks.”

"“The idea is that we can take a point source of CO2, such as a coal fired power plant, a gas power plant, or even a natural gas mine where you liberate a huge amount of pure CO2 and we can essentially retrofit this technology at the back end of these plants. Then you could capture that produced CO2 and convert it into something that is hugely valuable to industry,” says Dr Lovell."

The researchers say in effect, they are closing the carbon loop in industrial processes that create harmful greenhouse gases. And by making small adjustments to the way the nanoparticles are burned by the FSP technique, they can determine the eventual mix of the syngas building blocks produced by the carbon dioxide conversion.

“At the moment you generate syngas by using natural gas – so from fossil fuels,” Dr Daiyan says. “But we’re using waste carbon dioxide and then converting it to syngas in a ratio depending on which industry you want to use it in.”

For example, a one to one ratio between the carbon monoxide and hydrogen lends itself to syngas that can be used as fuel. But a ratio of four parts carbon monoxide and one part hydrogen is suitable for the creation of plastics, Dr Daiyan says.

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/engineers-find-neat-way-turn-waste-carbon-dioxide-useful-material

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/aenm.202001381

morganism

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1691
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 215
  • Likes Given: 124
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #272 on: August 09, 2020, 01:37:42 AM »
a new electrocatalyst that converts carbon dioxide (CO2) and water into ethanol with very high energy efficiency, high selectivity for the desired final product and low cost. Ethanol is a particularly desirable commodity because it is an ingredient in nearly all U.S. gasoline and is widely used as an intermediate product in the chemical, pharmaceutical and cosmetics industries.

https://www.anl.gov/article/turning-carbon-dioxide-into-liquid-fuel

"The team’s catalyst consists of atomically dispersed copper on a carbon-powder support. By an electrochemical reaction, this catalyst breaks down CO2 and water molecules and selectively reassembles the broken molecules into ethanol under an external electric field. The electrocatalytic selectivity, or ​“Faradaic efficiency,” of the process is over 90 percent, much higher than any other reported process. What is more, the catalyst operates stably over extended operation at low voltage."

revealed a reversible transformation from atomically dispersed copper to clusters of three copper atoms each on application of a low voltage. The CO2-to-ethanol catalysis occurs on these tiny copper clusters. This finding is shedding light on ways to further improve the catalyst through rational design.

“We have prepared several new catalysts using this approach and found that they are all highly efficient in converting CO2 to other hydrocarbons,”

Juan C. García

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3359
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1279
  • Likes Given: 1127
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #273 on: October 18, 2020, 05:11:09 PM »
A good video of "Just have a think":

Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

morganism

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1691
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 215
  • Likes Given: 124
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #274 on: October 27, 2020, 06:11:08 AM »
A new material for separating CO2 from industrial waste gases, natural gas, or biogas

It is capable of completely removing CO2 from gas mixtures without chemically binding CO2.

" The new material is an inorganic-organic hybrid. The chemical basis is clay minerals consisting of hundreds of individual glass platelets. These are only one nanometre thick each, and arranged precisely one above the other.

Between the individual glass plates there are organic molecules that act as spacers. Their shape and chemical properties have been selected so that the pore spaces created are optimally tailored to accumulate CO2. Only carbon dioxide molecules can penetrate into the pore system of the material and be retained there.

In contrast, methane, nitrogen, and other exhaust gas components must remain outside due to the size of their molecules. The researchers have used the so-called molecular sieve effect to increase the material's selectivity for CO2."

https://www.biofueldaily.com/reports/A_new_material_for_separating_CO2_from_industrial_waste_gases_natural_gas_or_biogas_999.html

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666386420302253?via%3Dihub

Iain

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 584
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 95
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #275 on: November 02, 2020, 02:26:20 PM »
It's code-named "Lucy"

The amount of CO2 removed will be tiny, but it shows what a motivation monetary reward is.

"UK sky mining facility sucks carbon out of the air to make eco-friendly diamonds"

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-10-29/uk-sky-mining-facility-sucks-carbon-out-of-the-air-to-make-eco-friendly-diamonds
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

kassy

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8234
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2041
  • Likes Given: 1986
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #276 on: November 02, 2020, 03:13:46 PM »
If you want you can bling out with atmospheric carbon stuff. So you get diamonds and then you can get sunglasses from Covalent which makes them from AirCarbon. Think they can get you a bag too.

Of course these are now small drops but maybe we will end up sucking a whole lot of carbon out of the air that way.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2476
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 583
  • Likes Given: 42
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #277 on: November 02, 2020, 04:27:13 PM »
If you want you can bling out with atmospheric carbon stuff. So you get diamonds and then you can get sunglasses from Covalent which makes them from AirCarbon. Think they can get you a bag too.

Of course these are now small drops but maybe we will end up sucking a whole lot of carbon out of the air that way.

I think it's a ridiculous approach.  Yes, you can take C02 and reduce the oxidized carbon to elemental carbon.  But that's an incredibly energy-intensive process.  It takes more energy than was released when the carbon was burned.

Plants will do something similar using solar energy.  Since they (frequently) grow and reproduce without human energy expenditure, that approach is a no-brainer.  But it's slow, and most of that carbon ends up back in the atmosphere before too long.

Humans can sequester the CO2 with minmial energy expenditure, by combining the acidic CO2 with almost any alkali.  Vast quantities of alkali are needed, so using olivine rock is a rational option.  Basalt too.  There are threads on this forum about all that, so I won't recap them.

Sequestering CO2 from smokestacks is plausible, but not currently economically feasible.  That can be changed with appropriate fees for releasing carbon, and/or credits for sequestration.  Fixing the greenhouse gas problem is really about fixing policy, not individual actions.

kassy

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8234
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2041
  • Likes Given: 1986
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #278 on: November 03, 2020, 01:02:03 AM »
I think it's a ridiculous approach.

I think so too. Diamonds from air...that´s weird.

But there might be chances there.

If we overbuild solar + wind we should get lots of energy we do not have a use for so if you time it right you can put more energy into processes although that might be more useful for recycling then making diamonds from the air. Then again if you have the excess energy anyway you can use it.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 81
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #279 on: November 03, 2020, 02:54:27 AM »
I think it's a ridiculous approach.

I think so too. Diamonds from air...that´s weird.

At least it produces something potentially valuable to mitigate the cost and isn't likely to end up back in the atmosphere. If it substantially reduces the cost of sequestering carbon, what is not to like? Well ok, perhaps the necessary scale of opportunity isn't there but maybe every little helps.


Sciguy

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1969
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 237
  • Likes Given: 188
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #280 on: November 25, 2020, 06:50:02 PM »
As companies seek to reach net zero or even sequester all of their historic emissions, "carbontech" firms are becoming economically viable.

https://www.greenbiz.com/article/carbontech-getting-ready-its-market-moment

Quote
Carbontech is getting ready for its market moment

By Heather Clancy
October 28, 2020

It may be a little early to start writing about trends for 2021, but I’m going to do it anyway. What’s on my mind? Carbontech, a category of climate tech I’d love to see break through next year. It's the exciting idea that we can take something that could be considered waste, draw it out of the atmosphere and turn it into a source of revenue or economic growth.

There are signs that give me optimism. This morning, digital payments company Stripe announced a plan to let its merchant customers divert a portion of their revenue to carbon removal projects. The move follows Stripe’s own pledge to put $1 million into four "high potential" projects earlier this year, and the two initiatives are related. The specific technologies that Stripe is funding are carbon-sequestering concrete (CarbonCure), geologic storage (Charm Industrial), direct air capture (Climeworks) and ocean mineralization (Project Vesta).

Quote
Lest I forget, another well-known commerce player, Shopify, last month picked carbon removal and carbontech as a focus for its Sustainability Fund, which commits $5 million annually to climate-tech solutions. Some companies it is supporting are the same as Stripe (CarbonCure, Charm Industrial and Climeworks). It is also including ocean sequestration in the mix through its support of Planetary Hydrogen. And it is also letting merchants add options for offsetting that buyers can select during transactions.

Quote
How ginormous could the carbontech market get? According to nonprofit Carbon180, the total addressable market for products that could be affected is $6 trillion — with the biggest opportunities for using "waste CO2" found in transportation fuels and building materials. Captured carbon also could be a resource for food, fertilizers, polymers and chemicals. (Before you ask, very few innovators that CCN is tracking are focused on enhanced oil recovery applications.)

Sciguy

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1969
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 237
  • Likes Given: 188
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #281 on: November 25, 2020, 06:57:51 PM »
Carbon sequestration investments may be included in a new US stimulus plan early next year.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/11/09/1011859/biden-calls-for-major-investments-into-carbon-removal-tech/

Quote
Biden calls for major investments into carbon removal tech

The president-elect’s transition plan also recommends research and development funding for batteries, renewable hydrogen and advanced nuclear.

James Temple
November 9, 2020

President-elect Joe Biden wasted little time setting a new tone on climate change.

On Sunday, one day after major outlets called the presidential election for the former vice president, the Biden-Harris transition team released documents laying out the incoming administration’s early priorities, including a blueprint for “tackling the climate crisis.”

Most of the details were drawn directly from Biden’s sweeping campaign climate plan, which would dedicate $1.7 trillion to overhaul energy, transportation, agriculture, and other sectors. But the list of areas in which Biden hopes to make “far-reaching investments” includes at least one new term: negative-emissions technologies.That phrase encompasses a number of approaches for drawing greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere. These can include carbon-sucking machines that companies like Climeworks and Carbon Engineering are developing; methods to speed up natural processes through which minerals capture and lock away carbon; and schemes that rely on plants to absorb carbon dioxide, then convert them into fuel sources and capture any resulting emissions (a process known as “bioenergy with carbon capture and sequestration”).

Scientists say that removing billions of tons of carbon dioxide per year by midcentury will be essential for preventing very dangerous levels of global warming.

Quote
Policy observers believe that there could be opportunities to incorporate significant research and development funding for clean energy in upcoming economic stimulus packages, noting that such measures have bipartisan support. Indeed, Congress largely beat back the Trump administration’s repeated efforts to slash federal investments in these areas during the last four years.

morganism

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1691
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 215
  • Likes Given: 124
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #282 on: November 26, 2020, 08:16:23 AM »
Carbon capture conversion to sugars-About a third of this process globally is carried out by single-celled algae that live in the oceans

https://phys.org/news/2020-11-scientists-mystery-enigmatic-organelle-pyrenoid.html

The enzyme that performs the first step of the reaction to assimilate carbon dioxide into sugars is a bulky protein called Rubisco assembled from eight identical small subunits and eight identical large subunits arranged together symmetrically. All the parts of this assembly, which is called a holoenzyme, work in concert to perform Rubisco's enzymatic duty. Rubisco's rate of activity—and by extension, the rate at which plants and algae can grow—is limited by its access to carbon dioxide. Free carbon dioxide can be scarce in water, so aquatic algae such as Chlamydomonas reinhardtii sometimes struggle to keep Rubisco working at peak capacity. To counteract this, these algae evolved a special structure called the pyrenoid to supply concentrated carbon dioxide to Rubisco. The pyrenoid is so important that almost all algae on the planet have one. Different species of algae are thought to have evolved the structure independently."

The structural basis of Rubisco phase separation in the pyrenoid, Nature Plants (2020). DOI: 10.1038/s41477-020-00811-y

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #283 on: January 22, 2021, 04:30:32 PM »
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk)1/21/21, 6:08 PM
Am donating $100M towards a prize for best carbon capture technology
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1352392678177034242
Elon Musk:
Details next week

Everyday Astronaut:
Is a sabatier reactor considered a carbon capture technology? Or maybe a good carbon capture machine can be used for a more efficient and powerful sabatier reactor
Elon Musk:
It’s a good path for fully renewable rocket energy, so solves part of problem, but longer chain hydrocarbons than CH4 are needed to be solid at room temp
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 81
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #284 on: January 22, 2021, 11:37:10 PM »
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1352392678177034242

Elon Musk:
Am donating $100M towards a prize for best carbon capture technology

Rodius

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2123
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 645
  • Likes Given: 46
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #285 on: January 30, 2021, 01:16:04 AM »
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1352392678177034242

Elon Musk:
Am donating $100M towards a prize for best carbon capture technology

I wonder if he would accept any  given plant as the answer?

interstitial

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2867
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 567
  • Likes Given: 96
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #286 on: January 30, 2021, 03:42:49 AM »
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1352392678177034242

Elon Musk:
Am donating $100M towards a prize for best carbon capture technology

I wonder if he would accept any  given plant as the answer?
Bamboo would be a good choice

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #287 on: January 30, 2021, 04:51:13 AM »
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1352392678177034242

Elon Musk:
Am donating $100M towards a prize for best carbon capture technology

I wonder if he would accept any  given plant as the answer?
Bamboo would be a good choice

We’ve damaged the environment too much; we can’t expect Mother Nature to deliver an easy fix for what we’ve done.  And we are too lazy and tribal to recover the world with plants.

We need to apply ingenuity and science to find a solution that is more efficient, quicker, and easily implemented widely without a lot of effort — it’s sad, but true.  An X Prize with a monetary incentive is more likely to engage scientists to come up with creative solutions, with better future potential compared to industry fixes that just put carbon out of sight (pumping CO2 underground, etc.). 
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

El Cid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 923
  • Likes Given: 225
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #288 on: January 30, 2021, 07:07:39 AM »
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1352392678177034242

Elon Musk:
Am donating $100M towards a prize for best carbon capture technology

I wonder if he would accept any  given plant as the answer?

Exactly my thought. We have millions of years of R&D here by Nature. Trees. Plants. Animals. Regenerative Agriculture. Many Reg Ag practitioners increased their soil carbon content (measured in the upper 30 cms) by 0,5% in a decade.

We have 40 m sqkm of agricultural land. This means that we could potentially capture 5*10^10 ton of carbon in 10 years. 50 billion tons of carbon. That is 180 billion tons of Co2. That is 5 years of emissions. Not bad at all. 

I bet this would be cheaper and more environmentally friendly to do than any wonderful technology dreamt up by Elon Musk et al.

Can I get the 100 million bucks now?


Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #289 on: January 30, 2021, 03:44:47 PM »
Quote
We have 40 m sqkm of agricultural land. This means that we could potentially capture 5*10^10 ton of carbon in 10 years. 50 billion tons of carbon. That is 180 billion tons of Co2. ...

Great!  If it’s so easy, why hasn’t it already been done? ? ?

Theory is easy.  Execution of theory is quite a different matter!

We can’t even keep our existing carbon sinks from being destroyed, due to our greed and ignorance.  There’s absolutely no chance “40 m sqkm of agricultural land” will be turned to persistent carbon storage.  And if it were, what would we eat?
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 81
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #290 on: January 30, 2021, 04:09:32 PM »
Solar panels to shade scrub land that is too hot for most agriculture. Use power to pump water and irrigate land, grow hemp, pyrolysis to improve soil and allow more hemp growth.

Don't think 32 words is going to cut it though.

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 81
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #291 on: January 30, 2021, 04:19:48 PM »
A carbon tax to pay for all the best schemes submitted.   ;)

Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2504
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 744
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #292 on: January 30, 2021, 05:39:08 PM »
Sigmetnow, I believe some ag lands that have been using conventional  industrial ag  can change their operating practices and add carbon back to their farmland. Mollisol  soils  that are naturally deep and fertile can be saved and some of the carbon released with plows and conventional chemical fertilizers can be added back but getting carbon levels back to virgin ground ( prairies ) is just fantasy. Some farmers have changed how they farm and can document carbon capture but restoring formerly fertile ground is not the same as converting desert lands or thin soil profiles into carbon sinks.
It took millions of years to build deep, rich prairie soils . It  took less than two hundred years to turn those rich soils into carbon sources and to be practical we should think about the next two hundred years to restore them.
 Paying people to restore ag land when they profited off ruining it seems like one more scam to me but I suppose some form of bribery will be used to help placate corporate ag interests and carbon capture looks to be the likely form . We can measure the efficacy of using ag land to capture carbon and incentives can be tailored to results but I doubt that is how the government will proceed.
 We are getting scammed just like those carbon credits rich people buy to assuage their guilt when they fly. Where are the studies that document how much carbon has been buried by tree planting paid for with carbon credits ?
 But then where is the proof that the tax incentives Tesla receives have resulted in carbon savings commensurate with their costs ? Tesla owners want to believe they are saving the planet and deserve their handouts and big ag just wants in on the payola.
 A tax system that pays people who don’t need new cars, or big tractors, or vast landholdings and can live frugally isn’t going to make the rich richer and therefor it isn’t going to happen. Tesla and big ag are much more likely the benefactors of our false prophets.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 06:18:36 PM by Bruce Steele »

El Cid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 923
  • Likes Given: 225
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #293 on: January 30, 2021, 10:59:56 PM »
Quote
We have 40 m sqkm of agricultural land. This means that we could potentially capture 5*10^10 ton of carbon in 10 years. 50 billion tons of carbon. That is 180 billion tons of Co2. ...

Great!  If it’s so easy, why hasn’t it already been done? ? ?.... And if it were, what would we eat?

For the same reason that we couldn't stop COVID. Politicians are stupid and lazy. So is everyone else. Habits change hard.

And what would we eat? Reg ag yields are not necessarily significantly lower than conventional. Besides, half of our cropland grows food for cows and pigs. Less meat consumption = no problems.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #294 on: January 31, 2021, 02:45:16 AM »
Quote
We have 40 m sqkm of agricultural land. This means that we could potentially capture 5*10^10 ton of carbon in 10 years. 50 billion tons of carbon. That is 180 billion tons of Co2. ...

Great!  If it’s so easy, why hasn’t it already been done? ? ?.... And if it were, what would we eat?

For the same reason that we couldn't stop COVID. Politicians are stupid and lazy. So is everyone else. Habits change hard.
...

So we agree!   I think. ;)

Let’s say it is definitively determined that to remove the necessary amount of carbon from the air, we can switch to harder farming methods and expend millions of person-days planting millions of acres of trees/grasses/whatever, if we start a wartime-like effort right now.  (And we determine how that would change the ecology of the affected areas, for better or worse....)

OR

The X Prize for the best new physio-chemical method of decarbonization results in a procedure that can be applied at an industrial scale, in “decarbonization factories,” which can be built around the world, in tiny footprints, comparatively speaking, and in locations not suitable for agriculture.

So of course it’s not an either/or.  We do both. 

But if everyone were required to choose between, say, giving up five years of their life somewhere far from home, working physically every day planting and tending to planted vegetation... 

OR... 
giving up 5% of their income, to build and maintain decarbonization factories in their region, with no further effort required on their part,

...which option do you think the majority of people would choose?

We need a solution for the lazy folks, and we need a monetary impetus to find that solution, quickly, and get started rolling it out globally. (And yes, we need to determine how that might adversely affect the environment, too.)

Thus, the Musk prize.  Because just planting stuff the right way isn’t sufficient, or fast enough.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

interstitial

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2867
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 567
  • Likes Given: 96
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #295 on: January 31, 2021, 06:51:22 AM »
Near as I can figure natural carbon sinks are already assumed in our carbon budget. Mostly it seems like restoring natural carbon sinks is a way not to get further behind not a way to get ahead. Most of this sounds like double accounting to me. Though I have not looked into this topic much. Maybe I am wrong.

El Cid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2507
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 923
  • Likes Given: 225
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #296 on: January 31, 2021, 08:16:29 AM »

Let’s say it is definitively determined that to remove the necessary amount of carbon from the air, we can switch to harder farming methods and expend millions of person-days planting millions of acres of trees/grasses/whatever, if we start a wartime-like effort right now.  (And we determine how that would change the ecology of the affected areas, for better or worse....)


No. You misunderstand regenerative ag. You do NOT start changing the landscape to forests. You change practices. You stop tilling, you start using diverse covercrops, you use animals on the land not in enclosed industrial spaces, you use diversity instead of monocultures. There is absolutely no wartime effort needed here, the technology exists, every farmer has it or can buy it easily. It's "only" a change of mindset - unfortunately that is the most difficult obstacle in our lives.


Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #297 on: January 31, 2021, 03:33:15 PM »

Let’s say it is definitively determined that to remove the necessary amount of carbon from the air, we can switch to harder farming methods and expend millions of person-days planting millions of acres of trees/grasses/whatever, if we start a wartime-like effort right now.  (And we determine how that would change the ecology of the affected areas, for better or worse....)


No. You misunderstand regenerative ag. You do NOT start changing the landscape to forests. You change practices. You stop tilling, you start using diverse covercrops, you use animals on the land not in enclosed industrial spaces, you use diversity instead of monocultures. There is absolutely no wartime effort needed here, the technology exists, every farmer has it or can buy it easily. It's "only" a change of mindset - unfortunately that is the most difficult obstacle in our lives.

We need to do much, much more than just switch current (and future) agricultural methods. 
We need more forests and grasslands, too.  And even that is not enough. 
We need new technological decarbonization methods removing the carbon that our other technology unearthed and belched into the atmosphere.  “Natural” methods work, over time, but we can’t wait that long, and humans are too lazy, tribal and territorial to employ enough of them any time soon.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #298 on: February 09, 2021, 01:36:18 AM »
Details of the $100 million prize for innovators who aid the development of carbon dioxide removal (CDR).   Yes, it’s an Xprize.

“Carbon negativity, not neutrality,” Musk said in a statement. “This is not a theoretical competition… Whatever it takes. Time is of the essence.”

Elon Musk’s $100 Million Prize Is for Removing Carbon Dioxide From the Air
The competition will be managed by Xprize, with three winners named in 2025 to share the prize money
February 8, 2021
Quote
Teams entering the Xprize competition to win a portion of Musk’s $100 million will have to demonstrate a method for capturing as much as 1 ton of CO₂ per day as cheaply as possible, while proving to judges that the technology can be scaled up to remove as much as 1 billion tons a year.

“The Xprize team has deep technical experts and have a history of successfully running similar prizes,” said Noah Deich, president of Carbon180, a non-profit focused on carbon removal. “If there’s a way to get entrepreneurs, who might otherwise try and tackle problems less relevant to the fate of civilization, then Xprize is really well suited to that challenge.”

According to contest officials, the carbon-removal competition is likely to have four tracks—air, land, oceans, and rocks—that focus on different routes technologies can take to achieve CDR. Some of these pathways are already occupied by startups. There are at least three companies with air purifier-like machines that filter and trap CO₂: Canada’s Carbon Engineering, the Swiss company Climeworks, and Global Thermostat based in the U.S. So far, these three existing startups have built pilot plants that can, at best, capture thousands of tons of CO₂ each year.

The prize might spur startups to pursue other viable routes. Oceans naturally dissolve much of the CO₂ that human activity releases, for instance, and scientists have started developing ideas for capturing the dissolved gas held in the water. It’s also possible to use crushed minerals on farmland that speed up the process of trapping CO₂ that would have otherwise happened much too slowly naturally.

“It’s not two or three solutions or a handful of companies, it’s probably a handful of solution types and dozens or hundreds of different efforts that we need,” said Marcius Extavour, executive director of environment at Xprize. “We need a whole industry doing carbon removal.”

If the world gets serious about demand for carbon removal, a study published in 2020 suggested that the emerging industry could come to rival the size of modern fossil-fuel production. Annual revenues from carbon removal could reach as much as $1.4 trillion by 2050—about the same as the oil and gas sector earns today.


The easiest solution for CDR appears to be planting more trees, but that approach also presents a number of problems. The carbon-offsets industry that has capitalized on the idea has been found to often fall short of delivering verifiable CO₂ removal over a long duration. Any nature-based solutions entering the competition for Musk’s prize money will have to show that carbon can stay trapped for 100 years or more, according to Extavour.


Xprize is currently in the final stages of a separate competition that is looking to further develop conventional carbon capture technology and find ways to put the CO₂ to use in valuable products, such as synthetic fuel or advanced materials like carbon fiber. A total of 48 teams entered the competition and nine remain in the final round, with two prizes worth $10 million each to be handed out later this year.

“It’s been very difficult to raise capital in” carbon capture, said Extavour. “When we started five years ago, the questions from investors were: Is this real? Does it actually work? These carbon-management solutions were not really mainstream in the climate-intervention conversation then.” …
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-08/elon-musk-s-100-million-prize-is-for-removing-carbon-dioxide-from-the-air?srnd=green&sref=aGTrSb9U
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

kassy

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8234
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2041
  • Likes Given: 1986
Re: Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)
« Reply #299 on: February 09, 2021, 02:36:56 PM »
Quote
Annual revenues from carbon removal could reach as much as $1.4 trillion by 2050—about the same as the oil and gas sector earns today.

Of course the technical term for that is paying twice and it will be the public that pays.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.