Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: The Hyperloop  (Read 61916 times)

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #400 on: February 20, 2018, 02:19:04 PM »
At the link is a Periscope video of a (rather frenetic) live CNBC discussion about the Mumbai Hyperloop.  In Hindi, with some English.

https://twitter.com/CNBC_Awaaz/status/965564977783349248

At one point, they mention “linear acceleration and a next-generation maglev.”
Edit: Also, the test track will be 10 km long.

My Hindi is a bit rusty ;) ;D but the first image below appears to compare the speed of the Hyperloop (1,223 kph;  760 mph) as just under the speed of sound (1,235 kph), and faster than an airplane and a bullet train.

The second image is a rendering of the passenger cabin (with an all-too-close-to-a-Tesla-logo at the back :o ).

Third image is of the actual pod from the test site in Nevada.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 02:53:03 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #401 on: February 20, 2018, 03:05:03 PM »
...

Regardless of my own opinion regarding the Hyperloop, I do want to thank Sigmetnow for posting numerous updates here (and elsewhere on the forum). And I wish the level of acrimony on this thread would go down. Time is the ultimate judge, and it's not necessary to convince anyone while waiting. So all please try to avoid getting angry or taking offense if the others on the thread are not convinced. 10 years from now we can all go back here and find out who was right.

Thanks, oren.  I’d say the hyperloop idea here is progressing steadily through the stages of, “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”  ;) :)

But mostly, I think the hyperloop is just a fascinating technological advancement!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 03:53:09 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #402 on: February 20, 2018, 04:18:31 PM »
Addressing Congestion in India’s Most Bustling Corridor: Pune - Mumbai
I think part of the talk around the Hyperloop is hype and a good brand name, regardless of the engineering challenges as highlighted by some of the posters up-thread. The distance from Pune to Mumbai is only 160km according to google. For a commuter going from Pune to Mumbai in a newly dug tunnel, how much of a difference would it make to have a 320 km/h speed or a 640 km/h speed? Saving 15 minutes is nice-to-have but not significant, when calculating the whole door-to-door trip, and considering the current far worse situation. I am quite certain the typical commuter would prefer to have the solution in place quickly and cheaply, rather than wait years for all "true Hyperloop" challenges to be solved at a high cost.
I therefore strongly suspect that the actual system deployed in the Pune-Mumbai corridor will be called Hyperloop but will not be remotely close to the Hyperloop as originally envisaged by Musk.

Regardless of my own opinion regarding the Hyperloop, I do want to thank Sigmetnow for posting numerous updates here (and elsewhere on the forum). And I wish the level of acrimony on this thread would go down. Time is the ultimate judge, and it's not necessary to convince anyone while waiting. So all please try to avoid getting angry or taking offense if the others on the thread are not convinced. 10 years from now we can all go back here and find out who was right.
I concur. Also adding that on a forum like this, I would prefer if people tried to support their opinions by posting available facts.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

wili

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2423
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 45
  • Likes Given: 230
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #403 on: February 20, 2018, 05:03:12 PM »
I say this with no acrimony, but I do find development of hyperloop a waste of precious resources that could be much more effectively deployed elsewhere. But then I have the same opinion almost all space travel (and air travel, for that matter).

Why are we in such a rush to get somewhere else? And whatever the bizarre bases of such impulses, why should we be indulging such wasteful and irrational urges?

I haven't flown for about 20 years and have done no long distance travel for about a decade and I seem to be no worse for it, and in fact far more connected to my local community (and the money saved is handy too).

There are basic human needs that are going unaddressed for billions of people every day: access to clean water, access to adequate healthy food, housing, financial security, health....

There is no basic human need to travel across the planet at speeds near the speed of sound.

There just isn't.

(OK, maybe there was just a little whiff of acrimony in that last bit...sorry  :-\ ::))
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #404 on: February 20, 2018, 05:34:04 PM »
You beat me wili, I'm celebrating my tenth year this year. Jumped off the treadmill in 2003 and voluntarily grounded since 2008. Life's miserable? No, it's actually better, much better family wise.

Noone has yet built a compressor that will allow the hyperloop to reach transonic speeds. It won't go much over mach 0.5 without it, thanks to the Kantrowitz limit. See previous posts.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #405 on: February 21, 2018, 09:20:02 AM »
Noone has yet built a compressor that will allow the hyperloop to reach transonic speeds. It won't go much over mach 0.5 without it, thanks to the Kantrowitz limit. See previous posts.

If I interpret the Hindi video that Sigmetnow posted correctly, they expect the Pune to Mumbai trip with hyperloop to take 45 min.

https://twitter.com/CNBC_Awaaz/status/965564977783349248

That's an average speed of about 200 km/hr.

For such speeds, it would be more cost effective to ditch the tube altogether.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #406 on: February 21, 2018, 04:30:38 PM »
...

If I interpret the Hindi video that Sigmetnow posted correctly, they expect the Pune to Mumbai trip with hyperloop to take 45 min.
...

Incorrect.  They repeatedly show a Hyperloop One route time of 25 minutes.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #407 on: February 21, 2018, 05:19:10 PM »
Noone has yet built a compressor that will allow the hyperloop to reach transonic speeds. It won't go much over mach 0.5 without it, thanks to the Kantrowitz limit. See previous posts.

If I interpret the Hindi video that Sigmetnow posted correctly, they expect the Pune to Mumbai trip with hyperloop to take 45 min.

https://twitter.com/CNBC_Awaaz/status/965564977783349248

That's an average speed of about 200 km/hr.

For such speeds, it would be more cost effective to ditch the tube altogether.
I never watched it, Rob. But if it is 25 minutes (as Sig claims above) and compares to the car route of 162 kilometres, that would still be an average speed below 400km/h, and far away from transonic.

Edit; think these guys needs more space.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 06:54:46 PM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #408 on: February 22, 2018, 01:17:22 AM »
Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
A first for the world

Today, our partners at the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission (MORPC), based in Columbus announced a $2.5 million Rapid-Speed Transportation Initiative that will explore hyperloop, alongside traditional rail for the corridor. These actions by MORPC break new ground because they are integrating hyperloop technology into a larger Environmental Impact Study – the first time that has happened anywhere in the world.

In September 2017, we announced the Chicago-Columbus-Pittsburgh route as one of the 10 winners of our Global Challenge. During deliberation, it was clear that the Midwest is serious about innovation. We read letters of support from leaders across the region: Ohio Governor John R. Kasich, the Indiana Department of Transportation, the Ohio Department of Transportation, and the cities of Columbus, Lima, and Fort Wayne.
...
Phase 1: Hyperloop Feasibility Study

The first step is a feasibility study where engineers are going to roll up their sleeves and examine route alignment, right-of-way, and the overall technical feasibility of building a hyperloop along the route. The study will also look at the feasibility of the economic and political landscape – providing estimates of transportation demand and economic benefits, implementation strategy, and stakeholder and public engagement strategy.

The Feasibility Study, estimated to take nine months, will analyze potential routes connecting the tech-savvy cities of Columbus and Pittsburgh to the global powerhouse of Chicago -- strengthening market opportunities across the region. A hyperloop connecting Pittsburgh, Columbus, and Chicago would transform the movement of goods and people in the Midwest, and create a Great Lakes Megaregion, home to some 20 percent of the nation’s population and economic activity. There is vast untapped economic potential in the region, as there is currently no direct freight or passenger rail connection along the corridor.
...
The freight capabilities of a Midwest Hyperloop would solve some of the region’s capacity and access challenges. Currently there is no direct highway route between Chicago and Columbus or Pittsburgh. In 2015, there were 5.9 million tons of freight worth $16.7 billion moved between Columbus, Pittsburgh, and Chicago. This tonnage is expected to increase to 9 million by 2040 at nearly double the value, according to the federal Department of Transportation.
...
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/hyperloop-included-25-million-columbus-chicago-environmental-impact-study

”Chicago to Columbus in less than an hour is a step closer to reality.”
- Hyperloop One
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #409 on: February 22, 2018, 01:31:30 AM »
Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Comission

Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
Multiple partners have verbally committed financial resources to the initiative including the city of Columbus ($250,000), Ohio and Indiana rail partners including MORPC, Union County, and the cities of Marysville and Lima ($500,000). Additionally, support from other private partners and Virgin Hyperloop One is anticipated but yet to be determined.

“We are excited to partner with leading public and private organizations on the future of rapid-speed transportation here in Central Ohio,” said MORPC Executive Director William Murdock.  “Being in one of the fastest growing regions in the Midwest and with the potential to add up to one million people by 2050, we are taking the next steps in exploring the best transportation options for both passengers and freight that will better connect Columbus to Chicago and Pittsburgh.” ...
http://www.morpc.org/news/morpc-announces-2-5-million-rapid-speed-transportation-initiative/

Which will they choose: high speed rail, or hyperloop?
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #410 on: February 22, 2018, 01:46:32 AM »
“I used to say decades on something like this.  But transportation planning is moving so much faster than it used to. Things that are taking decades are now taking years.”

Hyperloop -- no longer just a pipe dream for Columbus?
Quote
Five months after winning an international challenge from Virgin Hyperloop One, the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission is ready to announce “the first step” of the proposed project in a “major announcement.”

In September 2017, MORPC’s proposal to link Pittsburgh, Columbus and Chicago via high-speed transportation was chosen as one of 10 winners around the globe by Hyperloop One, a division of the Virgin Group. English business magnate and Virgin Group founder Richard Branson is the Hyperloop One chairman.

In a release at the time, Hyperloop One said the 10 winners qualify for “meaningful business and engineering resources and work closely with each of the winning teams/routes to determine their commercial viability.”

The other winning routes, which represent Canada, India, Mexico, the United Kingdom and the United States, are Toronto-Montreal in Canada, Bengaluru-Chennai and Mumbai-Chennai in India, Edinburgh-London and Glasgow-Liverpool in the United Kingdom, Mexico City-Guadalajara in Mexico and Cheyenne-Denver-Pueblo, Dallas-Laredo-Houston and Miami-Orlando in the U.S.
...
‘Midwest Megaregion’

The idea behind MORPC’s proposal -- called Midwest Connect -- is to create a “Midwest Megaregion” out of the three cities they say would combine for a gross domestic product of $865 billion.

To accomplish that, a Hyperloop would run from Pittsburgh to Chicago, with “major stops” in Columbus and Fort Wayne, Indiana, on the way. Other stops, according to MORPC documents, would include Lima and Newark.
http://www.thisweeknews.com/news/20180212/hyperloop----no-longer-just-pipe-dream

“Because of our role in this, we’ve been invited to the table with a very select few and the federal government. I think that’s pretty cool on its own for central Ohio.”
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #411 on: February 22, 2018, 04:06:11 AM »
Thank you Sigmetnow, for listing all these pipe-dream projects.
Now let us see if Virgin Hyperloop One can actually :

- build a tube where they can test the speed they claim, and
- how they are going to address the Kantrowitz limit (which kicks in at MACH 0.5), and
- build a commercial pod with chairs and a door and a toilet and things like that, and
- transport a human through their tube, and
- build an airlock that can decompress in seconds (or even minutes), and
- explain how they will solve the thermal expansion problem,
and so on

You know, basic stuff.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #412 on: February 22, 2018, 04:17:53 AM »
I never watched it, Rob. But if it is 25 minutes (as Sig claims above) and compares to the car route of 162 kilometres, that would still be an average speed below 400km/h, and far away from transonic.

Edit; think these guys needs more space.

Spot-on, Sleepy.
It seems to me that India needs a higher speed rail expansion much more than they need Hyperloop.

"Time will tell, but in the world of hyperloop you need to take all claims with a hefty dose of cynicism"

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/virgin-hyperloop-one-india-pune-and-mumbai
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #413 on: February 22, 2018, 08:01:46 AM »
Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Comission

Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
Multiple partners have verbally committed financial resources to the initiative including the city of Columbus ($250,000), Ohio and Indiana rail partners including MORPC, Union County, and the cities of Marysville and Lima ($500,000). Additionally, support from other private partners and Virgin Hyperloop One is anticipated but yet to be determined.

“We are excited to partner with leading public and private organizations on the future of rapid-speed transportation here in Central Ohio,” said MORPC Executive Director William Murdock.  “Being in one of the fastest growing regions in the Midwest and with the potential to add up to one million people by 2050, we are taking the next steps in exploring the best transportation options for both passengers and freight that will better connect Columbus to Chicago and Pittsburgh.” ...
http://www.morpc.org/news/morpc-announces-2-5-million-rapid-speed-transportation-initiative/

Which will they choose: high speed rail, or hyperloop?

HSR, unless someone builds a working contra-rotating high vacuum / low pressure compressor which would allow the hyperloop to go past the Kantrowitz limit and give the hyperloop the much needed real speed advantage.
A couple of quotes from the previously posted MIT final report:
Quote
Neither option is perfect, it either means limiting the cross-sectional area of the pod, hence decreasing payload or increasing tube construction costs, or it means adding an expensive, high-maintenance compressor to each pod. Furthermore, transonic compressors at such low
Reynolds numbers would require a large research and development effort, because they are not in use in any aerospace application today.
Quote
Of course, if the power requirement for a compressor to avoid the Kantrowitz limit is higher than the power loss due to the additional drag from exceeding the Kantrowitz limit, adding a compressor would be futile.

And from Softinway, also previously posted:
Quote
Musk proposed a compression ratio of about 20:1, which would require several compression stages for an axial compressor arrangement and an intercooler system. The temperature increases resulting from this high order compression require a complex cooling method or a traditional steam pressure vessel for the proper dumping of hot air. A final challenge on the compressor end would be the fact that it will be operating at a very low pressure. Only a handful of companies like Safran Aero Boosters have the necessary experience with low-pressure compression.

The city of Chicago struggles to keep all of its streets driveable. The state of Illinois has so much debt, that Moody downgraded its debt rating to Baa3, one level above Junk. We have interstate bridges falling into the Mississippi River. But somehow we are going to find the resources to build a new hyperloop system to replace our inefficient mode of travel. I know it sucks, but the system, beyond a few lines, will never be built.

My understanding is that most of the Hyperloop(s) will be built with private money.

Have you changed your mind about financing yet?
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #414 on: February 22, 2018, 08:12:21 AM »
I never watched it, Rob. But if it is 25 minutes (as Sig claims above) and compares to the car route of 162 kilometres, that would still be an average speed below 400km/h, and far away from transonic.

Edit; think these guys needs more space.

Spot-on, Sleepy.
It seems to me that India needs a higher speed rail expansion much more than they need Hyperloop.

"Time will tell, but in the world of hyperloop you need to take all claims with a hefty dose of cynicism"

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/virgin-hyperloop-one-india-pune-and-mumbai
Thanks for that article Rob. Well, if one's not concerned about the technical unsolved issues we've discussed here, then the economy would be easier to solve, but still an unanswered part:
Quote
However, for all the newfound transparency in the hyperloop world, we didn’t get concrete information about how much the hyperloop will cost, nor who will be funding it: Virgin Hyperloop One, regional or national government, or all of the above working together.

Large scale infrastructure projects always need support from governments, municipalities and tax payers.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #415 on: February 22, 2018, 07:24:59 PM »
...
Which will they choose: high speed rail, or hyperloop?

HSR, unless...

Ha ha!  Gotcha!  It’s a trick question. ;D

Of course, they will select the Hyperloop. ;)  The Midwest U.S. proposal was one of the strongest of thousands of regions around the world who came together, put together a plan, and said, “This is why we should have a hyperloop.”

Quote
The Hyperloop One Global Challenge kicked off in May 2016 with a call for comprehensive proposals to build Hyperloop networks connecting cities and regions around the world. More than 2600 teams registered, and we narrowed the field down to the 35 strongest proposals. The Challenge drew broad support from government leaders, and unleashed bold ideas from some of the world’s most creative companies, engineers, and urban planners. The final assessment was difficult but, along with our team of expert judges, we selected the ten routes… as winners of the Global Challenge.
https://hyperloop-one.com/global-challenge

 8)

All kidding aside, we’ll know the results of the Midwest Feasibility study in about nine months.  And we’ve all seen the arguments presented here against the hyperloop.  Again.  And again.  And again.  There is no need for anyone to re-post them every time there is a new hyperloop development, OK?

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #416 on: February 22, 2018, 07:30:58 PM »
“#Dubai Crown Prince unveils the initial design of the @HyperloopOne's
pod in the presence of Virgin Hyperloop One CEO Rob Lloyd”
https://twitter.com/DXBMediaOffice/status/966728027521642496
Images at the link.

“A look inside the Virgin @HyperloopOne #prototype which makes global debut in #Dubai -
 (link: http://bit.ly/HyperloopDxb)

Photo: Leslie Pableo | KT
https://twitter.com/khaleejtimes/status/966709277984509953
Image below, more at the link

Video: Hyperloop prototype makes global debut in Dubai
Quote
The world got its first glimpse of the initial design of Hyperloop in Dubai today. The futuristic transportation system could zip you from Dubai to Abu Dhabi in under 12 minutes.

The Roads and Transport Authority (RTA), in collaboration with Virgin Hyperloop One, unveiled the first model of the Hyperloop as part of the UAE Innovation Month.

The RTA and Virgin Hyperloop One have identified the routes for operating the Hyperloop, along with its initial design model.

Mattar Al Tayer, Director-General and Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors of the RTA, said they have made "considerable progress in the technical, engineering and economic feasibility study of the project".

The Hyperloop boasts of deluxe interiors, cutting-edge broadcasting, display information and entertainment materials, and leather seats. The technology uses an electromagnetic propulsion system to accelerate the movement of goods and services through a vacuum tube. The system is designed to assist the levitation of the capsule slightly off the track within the tube and move it at speeds up to 1,200kmph.

"Accordingly, the Hyperloop can travel between Dubai and Abu Dhabi in 12 minutes, and lift about 10,000 passengers per hour in both directions," said Al Tayer. "When introduced in the future, the Hyperloop technology will impact town planning and availability of parking spaces. It will revolutionise people mobility between various destinations in the city, logistical hubs like airports and ports, and shipping patterns."

Rob Lloyd, CEO of Virgin Hyperloop One, said the UAE and the RTA were early supporters of the technology. "It is particularly exciting to be unveiling the Dubai Hyperloop pod with the RTA tod-ay. Our focus in 2018 would be continuing the close collaboration with the RTA, to progress to the next phase of the project. Our aim is to explore the viability of a wider UAE Hyperloop network."
https://www.khaleejtimes.com/news/transport/video-rta-unveils-hyperloop-prototype-in-uae-innovation-month
Second image below.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #417 on: February 22, 2018, 08:10:29 PM »
Dubai to Abu Dhabi commute in 15 minutes? Time to believe the hype
Quote
Mr Lloyd said that it is planned that the Dubai-Abu Dhabi line would be just one route in a wider GCC network.

“A hyperloop network that runs from Jeddah to Riyadh, to Abu Dhabi to Dubai as a backbone from the Red Sea to the Arabian sea is an amazing opportunity and would transform the potential movement of goods and the mobility of people and have a dramatic impact on the economic development and continued growth in the region,” Mr Lloyd said in an exclusive interview with The National.

His company has spent a year working with the RTA to examine costs, ticket prices, likely passenger loads and the best routes. Discussions had been “very productive” he said.

The high-speed pods would run overground for most of the route, Mr Lloyd said, and then in tunnels to reach both city centres.
...
In 2016, Virgin Hyperloop secured US$50 million in initial funding from Dubai-based DP World and Caspian Venture Capital. It envisages having a prototype running by 2020.
...
Virgin Hyperloop says it envisages financing for its projects to come from partnerships between governments and the private sector. 

“I’m not worried about investors; I’m not worried about funding this company. I’m actually excited by the growing momentum,” Mr Lloyd said.  “We have governments around the world approaching us today interested in the huge economic impact that this technology delivers.”
https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/dubai-to-abu-dhabi-commute-in-15-minutes-time-to-believe-the-hype-1.707188
Article and images at the link.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #418 on: February 22, 2018, 09:47:43 PM »
...
Which will they choose: high speed rail, or hyperloop?

HSR, unless...

Ha ha!  Gotcha!  It’s a trick question. ;D

Of course, they will select the Hyperloop. ;)  The Midwest U.S. proposal was one of the strongest of thousands of regions around the world who came together, put together a plan, and said, “This is why we should have a hyperloop.”

Quote
The Hyperloop One Global Challenge kicked off in May 2016 with a call for comprehensive proposals to build Hyperloop networks connecting cities and regions around the world. More than 2600 teams registered, and we narrowed the field down to the 35 strongest proposals. The Challenge drew broad support from government leaders, and unleashed bold ideas from some of the world’s most creative companies, engineers, and urban planners. The final assessment was difficult but, along with our team of expert judges, we selected the ten routes… as winners of the Global Challenge.
https://hyperloop-one.com/global-challenge

 8)

All kidding aside, we’ll know the results of the Midwest Feasibility study in about nine months.  And we’ve all seen the arguments presented here against the hyperloop.  Again.  And again.  And again.  There is no need for anyone to re-post them every time there is a new hyperloop development, OK?
I got the expected reply.  ;)
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #419 on: February 23, 2018, 03:55:44 AM »
U.S.:  Another hyperloop company, Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT), recently announced agreements to study the feasibility of a hyperloop from Cleveland, Ohio to Chicago, Illinois.

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies signs first cross-state deal in the U.S.
Quote
“One of the two major dedicated companies pursuing the creation of functional Hyperloops (high-speed tunnel transportation that can zoom pods around in low pressure) has signed its first agreements that could lead to an interstate Hyperloop system.

The deal with Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT) includes agreements with both the North Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA) and the Illinois’ Department of Transportation (IDOT) to start work on a feasibility study, the first step of determining whether it’s even possible to build a route before beginning work in earnest. The study will focus on determining the viability of a number of different corridors, all the with the goal of connecting Cleveland and Chicago.” 
https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/15/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-signs-first-cross-state-deal-in-the-u-s/
Images below.

Ohio Aerospace and Aviation Technology Committee
Quote
“The Senate unanimously passed a resolution recently supporting the efforts to bring @hyperloopglobal to Ohio. OAATC Members and Chairman @Bill_Beagle reaffirm this in a recent letter to HTT supporting their efforts of research and development for this innovative operation.”
https://twitter.com/ohioaatc/status/964147865932136448
Text image and rendering at the link.

Quote
PLAYA VISTA, Calif., Feb. 15, 2018 /PRNewswire/ -- (New Images) - Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT | HyperloopTT) announced today the signing of official agreements with the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA) who is teaming with the Illinois' Department of Transportation (IDOT) to begin a feasibility study for the region. Several corridors have been identified for study connecting Cleveland to Chicago.
http://www.hyperloop.global/progress
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #420 on: February 23, 2018, 03:58:12 AM »
Musings on the benefits of developing hyperloop technology — even if the hyperloop itself never takes off.

Quote
“We have been talking with a construction company which maintains highways. They said that [with the introduction of a hyperloop system, they could] remove some of the freight trucks from the roads and this could exend the lifetime of those highways. This could reduce the number of accidents as well, with fewer trucks on the road.”
 
One of the biggest ambitions is that hyperloop could alleviate some of the traffic congestion issues that cities face, as well as offering significant environmental benefits.
 
Proponents say hyperloop can be powered mostly or entirely by renewable energy, resulting in low to zero net emissions. A study by the US Department of Transportation found that “on most routes hyperloop would be 2 to 3 times more energy efficient than air on a passenger mile basis” as well as up to three times faster than the world’s fastest high-speed rail system (Shanghai’s Maglev/Transrapid).
Game changer
https://smartcitiesworld.net/special-reports/special-reports/game-changer


Quote
The good news is that, even if hyperloop never takes over, the engineering work going on now could produce tools and techniques to improve existing industries. Much like NASA’s Apollo missions led to cordless drills, firefighting equipment, and supercomputers, hyperloop has the potential to spur significant transportation innovation if research continues at its current pace. In fact, that crossover has already begun.
The Hyperloop Industry Could Make Boring Old Trains and Planes Faster and Comfier
https://www.wired.com/story/hyperloop-spinoff-technology/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #421 on: February 23, 2018, 04:01:43 AM »
I took a screenshot of the pod from the video from Sigmetnow's link for the Dubai - Abu Dhabi line. I must say I think they did a good job there.

The pod looks great, and it has an isle, and 4 seats sideways, and possibly even a toilet. That takes care of one of the items on my list.

Couple of things :

First thing to notice is the doors. They are indeed "airplane" style doors as I expected for a pressure tight vehicle. Not the unreal Tesla-like "fold-up" doors they showed in the earlier presentations.

Secondly, this pod does not have Elon's compressor in front, so I guess they are going to "muscle" their way through the Kantrowitz limit, by mounting more linear motors in the track.

Thirdly, look how tightly the pod fits in the tube. If that tube is representative of the real tube size, then the fraction of Atube/Apod is going to be much lower than our previous assumptions and the tests they did in Nevada (which came in about Atube/Apod=2). This one shows Atube/Apod around 1.1. That means the Kantrowitz limit will be reached much sooner than Mach 0.5.

Essentially what they show here is a pod in a tube that will push ALL the air forward for the speed it is designed for. That means the air pressure on the track will double every time the distance to the end station is halved. Like a piston. That certainly creates a pressure wave that will slow the pod down to a crawl near the end station, and create quite a bit of heat and also noise at the end of the tube as the air pressure in front of the pod increases exponentially and rushes around the pod.

That last one is quite interesting. Maybe they want to use that air dome as a brake...?
Come to think of it, if they mount the air pumps near the end of the tube, they can use the air pressure wave that the pod creates as an opportunity to suck out more air.
That would be a clever way to get around the Kantrowitz limit,....:)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 06:29:35 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #422 on: February 23, 2018, 05:20:07 AM »
Question : We know that Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT) licensed the Inductrack technology from Lawrence Livermore Labs for their levitation :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack

This system requires a track made of electrical loops, which is going to be quite expensive.

Does anyone know which system Virgin Hyperloop One uses for levitation ?

I found this :

https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/how-and-why-were-levitating

Quote
In practice, this results in the generation of eddy currents, which dissipate energy as heat and are the operating principle behind induction stoves. In bulk conductors, eddy currents are tiny circular motions of current that aren’t particularly useful for efficient maglev. The trick with the Hyperloop One levitation system is to control the conductivity so that electricity flows more easily in some directions than in others. This way, the harmful eddy currents are reduced while bulk flows trace out shapes impossible in bulk conductors, repelling the pod magnets with very low drag. Metamaterials often exhibit bizarre, unintuitive behavior, such as the remarkable iridescence of a butterfly’s wings, a CD, or an opal. What biology does for light, we are doing for raw magnetism, in a deliberate approach to harness induced current flows through fine scale material manipulation.

But that is still pretty vague. And if anything, suggest a micro-engineered track, similar to Inductrack, which is always going to be expensive.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #423 on: February 23, 2018, 07:36:19 AM »
Quick calculation :

If they use a pod in a tube as displayed above, they are going to have some serious issues with heating. Since the pod is about the same size as the tube, it will function as a piston.
That means it will compress the air in front of it adiabatically, which will increase the temperature as you approach the end station.

The Dubai - Abu Dhabi connection is about 100 km, so at about 10 km before the end station, the air is compressed 10X. This will increase the temperature of the air to about 500 C
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_process

even closer, temperature will be exponentially higher.

So there is still a basic problem with this design, unless they slow down considerably on the last 10 km. Which may be OK since they need to slow down any way.
This problem is going to be worse for longer connections.
Still a close call of the feasibility of this Dubai - Abu Dhabi Hyperloop connection.
I'm looking forward to their first tests...
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Adam Ash

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 300
    • View Profile
    • The 100 metre line
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #424 on: February 23, 2018, 07:40:24 AM »
Hi.  Interesting to see what the speed of sound is at 20C 50% humidity at various pressures being discussed.

Pressure vs Speed of Sound at 20C
Barm/skm/h0.5 Mach (km/h)
13441238619
0.13501258629
0.014021448724

I really doubt that there is any practical need for speeds above Mach 0.5, which get you to over 600 km//h (far away from the K limit), although clearly there are propulsive energy advantages with lower pressures, if they can be sustained.

Adam Ash

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 300
    • View Profile
    • The 100 metre line
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #425 on: February 23, 2018, 07:47:08 AM »
Quick calculation :
... it will function as a piston....
.
But it does not have to.  ALL THAT IS REQUIRED, is to put in a series of decent diameter by-pass pipes (say 0.2 D of the main pipe) which lead backwards along the tube.  These will take high pressure air found in front of the pod, and allow it to vent to the low pressure zone behind the pod.  Each bypass loop being about twice the length of the longest pod.

Working similar to the inlet and exhaust ports on a two-stroke engine.

This will obviate the need for any energy-consuming fans or compressors on the pods.  Zero energy required for the pressure relief pipes.  Frequency of PR pipe installation determined by anticipated dP between the front of the pod and the rear.  At 0.01 bar, one every 5 to 10 km may be enough, tho they are cheap, and the more the better.

SteveMDFP

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1228
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 104
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #426 on: February 23, 2018, 05:52:19 PM »
  These will take high pressure air found in front of the pod, and allow it to vent to the low pressure zone behind the pod.  Each bypass loop being about twice the length of the longest pod.

Working similar to the inlet and exhaust ports on a two-stroke engine.

This will obviate the need for any energy-consuming fans or compressors on the pods.  Zero energy required for the pressure relief pipes.  Frequency of PR pipe installation determined by anticipated dP between the front of the pod and the rear.  At 0.01 bar, one every 5 to 10 km may be enough, tho they are cheap, and the more the better.

Except you don't really want any air introduced into the transit tubes at all, if avoidable, even from in front of a moving pod to its rear.

I'd think the most efficient system is to have a third Boring tunnel along the route, acting as a vast vacuum tank.  Pipes with one-way valves would allow air from transit tunnels to the Boring vacuum tunnel.  Vacuum pumps at intervals would keep the Boring tunnel evacuated.  Space in front of a moving pod with built-up air could passively be vented into the vacuum tunnel.

Such a design would avoid large pressure build-ups at terminal stations.  The moving pods would thus become part of the overall vacuum pump system, as they'd continuously "pump" air into the vacuum tunnel.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #427 on: February 24, 2018, 12:45:39 AM »
...
Thirdly, look how tightly the pod fits in the tube.
...

? ? ? ? ? ?

The pod is not round.  The sides are vertical, and there looks like at least half a meter of room between the top, and the sides, of the functioning prototype pod and the tube.  See photos below. 

(At a pod-loading stop, there could be “inserts” in the tube to eliminate the gap, merely to facilitate exit/entry to the pod and keep things from dropping onto the track.  I imagine this is what the Dubai mock-up illustrates.  Note also the vertical “windows” on the interior shots of the mock-up.)

Perhaps its time to give Kantrowitz a rest.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #428 on: February 24, 2018, 03:13:40 AM »
Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Comission

Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
Multiple partners have verbally committed financial resources to the initiative including the city of Columbus ($250,000), Ohio and Indiana rail partners including MORPC, Union County, and the cities of Marysville and Lima ($500,000). Additionally, support from other private partners and Virgin Hyperloop One is anticipated but yet to be determined.
I'm so relieved that Columbus has the funds to support this.
The last time I was through there the sidewalks were crumbling and they were considering cutting some of the fire services.


Whenever a community has repaired their existing infrastructure and secured their obligations to their retirees I think they've earned the right to invest in whatever schemes the taxpayers have agreed to.
Terry


Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #429 on: February 24, 2018, 03:15:17 AM »
...
Thirdly, look how tightly the pod fits in the tube.
...

? ? ? ? ? ?

The pod is not round.  The sides are vertical, and there looks like at least half a meter of room between the top, and the sides, of the functioning prototype pod and the tube.  See photos below. 

(At a pod-loading stop, there could be “inserts” in the tube to eliminate the gap, merely to facilitate exit/entry to the pod and keep things from dropping onto the track.  I imagine this is what the Dubai mock-up illustrates.  Note also the vertical “windows” on the interior shots of the mock-up.)

Perhaps its time to give Kantrowitz a rest.

What you show there is the XP-1 capsule.
For that one, the dimensions were estimated and Kantrowitz limits calculated in this paper :

https://mappingignorance.org/2018/02/07/the-limits-of-hyperloop/

Quote
Correcting for the non-rectangular shape of the capsule’s cross-section we could infer an approximate surface of 6 m², while the tube itself would have an interior cross-section of 12.67 m².
...
The estimates previously considered over the XP-1 capsule dimensions allow computing a possible Kantrowitz limit speed for the Virgin Hyperloop One test rig: approximately Mach 0.55 (188 m/s² or 677 km/h,

The pod I was talking about is the one shown in the Dubai show. Here is a better picture :



Now, I estimate that the 'bypass area' is about 1/5th of the tube area.
From that, we can calculate the Kantrowitz limit, and if my calculations are correct, the Kantrowitz limit for this design comes out at about 170 km/hour.

So if the picture is representative of the actual tube around the actual pod, they are definitely going past the Kantrowitz limit, and the pod will mostly act like a piston.

Let me note that this is not impossible, but it creates a lot of drag which will requires much more power and creates a host of new problems (like an air dome in front of the pod, and pressure shockwaves and temperature increase).
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 08:10:45 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #430 on: February 24, 2018, 03:37:58 AM »
I'd think the most efficient system is to have a third Boring tunnel along the route, acting as a vast vacuum tank.  Pipes with one-way valves would allow air from transit tunnels to the Boring vacuum tunnel.  Vacuum pumps at intervals would keep the Boring tunnel evacuated.  Space in front of a moving pod with built-up air could passively be vented into the vacuum tunnel.

Such a design would avoid large pressure build-ups at terminal stations.  The moving pods would thus become part of the overall vacuum pump system, as they'd continuously "pump" air into the vacuum tunnel.

That is creative thinking. Maybe they can even do without a third tube, and instead connect the two tubes (with cross-over tubes at set distances) that would at least mitigate the air pressure wave created by the pods a bit.

What I find surprising is that there seems to be very little discussion about them exceeding the Kantrowitz limit and the problems that come with that. Let alone testing that.

Some news articles even still show Elon's compressor in front, which we now know they will NOT install.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #431 on: February 24, 2018, 03:49:55 AM »
Another issue (with the Dubai project) is heat management.
It's hot in the UAEs, and even hotter in the tube (especially if they go through the Kantrowitz limit).
So they need air conditioning in the pods.
There are two challenges there :

- Without power from outside, all power needs to come from batteries.
Batteries are heavy and they need recharge time.
That adds complexity and cost.

- The tube is in a (near) vacuum, so the air conditioner has no way to get rid of the heat.
So they may need a water-cooled system.
That adds complexity and cost.

Otherwise, I guess it's just going to be pretty toasty inside.
And again : none of this is even remotely close to being tested.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4542
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 157
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #432 on: February 24, 2018, 08:13:21 AM »
Mr. TerryM wrote:

"I'm so relieved that Columbus has the funds to support this."

Columbus has the university, state capital, and a lot of traffic thru, 70 and 71 cross there and a buncha railines. They are better off than, say, after the recession. But note their ante on the project is a quarter million dollars. I think they  have a couple million in a rainy day fund, i hope they ain't looting that.

The last time I was through there the sidewalks were crumbling ..."

They replaced some, but others crumble ...

" ...  and they were considering cutting some of the fire services."

They lost that one. Police and firefighter union blackmailed em into better contracts. So cut the schools, as usual.

Columbus used to have passenger rail back in the day.

sidd
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 08:18:26 AM by sidd »

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #433 on: February 24, 2018, 09:05:36 AM »
Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Comission

Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
Multiple partners have verbally committed financial resources to the initiative including the city of Columbus ($250,000), Ohio and Indiana rail partners including MORPC, Union County, and the cities of Marysville and Lima ($500,000). Additionally, support from other private partners and Virgin Hyperloop One is anticipated but yet to be determined.
I'm so relieved that Columbus has the funds to support this.
The last time I was through there the sidewalks were crumbling and they were considering cutting some of the fire services.


Whenever a community has repaired their existing infrastructure and secured their obligations to their retirees I think they've earned the right to invest in whatever schemes the taxpayers have agreed to.
Terry

This is where reality hits every proposed large scale transportation solution hard, when it reaches those who are supposed to use it and pay for it.

The sidewalks are not crumbling but it sounds similar to the city of Salo, in Finland who already spent 100,000 euros on this pipe dream, hoping for more investments and jobs, as an effort to fight their economic problems and unemployment rates.

Guess I'm left a bit confused when reading some of these "solution" threads to Climate Change on this fine forum.
Quote
Quote
The city of Chicago struggles to keep all of its streets driveable. The state of Illinois has so much debt, that Moody downgraded its debt rating to Baa3, one level above Junk. We have interstate bridges falling into the Mississippi River. But somehow we are going to find the resources to build a new hyperloop system to replace our inefficient mode of travel. I know it sucks, but the system, beyond a few lines, will never be built.

My understanding is that most of the Hyperloop(s) will be built with private money.
Well, I'm certainly not funding these dreams and I never will.

There are technical issues that are not physically solveable, or even economically feasible as a mass transport system. The third part is that this is Elite Projection:
Quote
Elite projection is the belief, among relatively fortunate and influential people, that what those people find convenient or attractive is good for the society as a whole.  Once you learn to recognize this simple mistake, you see it everywhere.  It is perhaps the single most comprehensive barrier to prosperous, just, and liberating cities.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #434 on: February 24, 2018, 09:17:16 AM »
What I find surprising is that there seems to be very little discussion about them exceeding the Kantrowitz limit and the problems that come with that. Let alone testing that.
I don't think any of the investors involved, cares. They just use the transonic speed promises to sell a dream.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #435 on: February 24, 2018, 03:21:48 PM »
...
The pod I was talking about is the one shown in the Dubai show. Here is a better picture :
...

That tube is just a pretty mockup, and is much smaller than the actual tube — of course they would not bother with a vaccuum-strength steel tube for such a display.  Any calculations based on it are valueless.

Edit:  Once the pod exits the airlock, there is no need for a tube, anyway.  The boarding gate will look much different.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 03:49:24 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #436 on: February 25, 2018, 01:46:45 AM »
That tube is just a pretty mockup, and is much smaller than the actual tube — of course they would not bother with a vaccuum-strength steel tube for such a display.  Any calculations based on it are valueless.

Edit:  Once the pod exits the airlock, there is no need for a tube, anyway.  The boarding gate will look much different.

You are probably right.
They still have a lot of work to do, though.

I think the next step is a tube where they can actually run this pod at the specified speed.
I understand they will first build a 20 km test tube in Dubai.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #437 on: February 25, 2018, 07:35:02 AM »
I'm still curious about Hyperloop One's solution for levitation, linear motors, and emergency brake.
Because these three issues determine how expensive their track is going to be per mile.

So if anyone finds more information, please post it.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #438 on: February 25, 2018, 08:38:32 AM »
Maybe you can find something useful in these patent applications for their compressor and levitation rig. I got really bored halfway through...
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #439 on: February 25, 2018, 11:53:35 AM »
That tube is just a pretty mockup, and is much smaller than the actual tube — of course they would not bother with a vaccuum-strength steel tube for such a display.  Any calculations based on it are valueless.

Edit:  Once the pod exits the airlock, there is no need for a tube, anyway.  The boarding gate will look much different.

You are probably right.
They still have a lot of work to do, though.

I think the next step is a tube where they can actually run this pod at the specified speed.
I understand they will first build a 20 km test tube in Dubai.

Adding Hyperloop One's visualized boarding gate from late 2016 below, from this video:


Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #440 on: February 25, 2018, 07:22:04 PM »
Maybe you can find something useful in these patent applications for their compressor and levitation rig. I got really bored halfway through...

Thanks. 
Some good stuff there — they address most of the potential problems raised in this thread. ;)

Image 1.  Sizing the tube and capsule for maximum efficient air flow
Image 2.  For shorter travel distances (e.g., less than 30 km), the tube may be maintained at atmospheric pressure. 
Image 3.  Capsules communicate with each other, to adjust for seismic events, thermal expansion, etc.  In an emergency, air would be let into the tube to help slow the capsules.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #441 on: February 25, 2018, 09:00:55 PM »
Maybe you can find something useful in these patent applications for their compressor and levitation rig. I got really bored halfway through...

Thanks. 
Some good stuff there — they address most of the potential problems raised in this thread. ;)
In short: No.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #442 on: February 26, 2018, 06:54:36 AM »
Some good stuff there — they address most of the potential problems raised in this thread. ;)

Image 1.  Sizing the tube and capsule for maximum efficient air flow
Image 2.  For shorter travel distances (e.g., less than 30 km), the tube may be maintained at atmospheric pressure. 
Image 3.  Capsules communicate with each other, to adjust for seismic events, thermal expansion, etc.  In an emergency, air would be let into the tube to help slow the capsules.

While the sizing of the tube indeed was raised in this thread (regarding the Kantrowitz limit) none of the other issues raised in this thread were addressed.

For starters, the airlocks. Big issue, since they take time away from travel, and so far Hyperloop has not build one yet that can decompress in seconds (or even minutes).

You quote the patent as stating :

Quote
[0053] In one feature of the present disclosure, a system includes a partially-evacuated cylindrical tube that connects the stations in a closed loop system

However, even you yourself stated "Once the pod exits the airlock, there is no need for a tube, anyway". If that's the case, it is no longer a "closed loop system". It's just a tube with an airlock at each end.

A closed loop system doesn't have any air locks, just vacuum sealed doors, which are so far NOT specified and not invented yet. Incidentally, are you still sure the Dubai show (which showed a presentation of 'sealing' doors concept) is not reflective of Hyperloop's vision ?

Also, regarding levitation, you quote from the patent :
Quote
[0054] In embodiments, the capsule may be levitated using a pressurized fluid flow

That sounds like Elon's original design. NOT the Hyperloop solution of MagLev :

https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/how-and-why-were-levitating

Quote
The trick with the Hyperloop One levitation system is to control the conductivity so that electricity flows more easily in some directions than in others.

One of the basic issues that came up in this thread is, that if they are going to build a MagLev in a tube, why not ditch the tube, and just build a good MagLev ?
The reduces cost and complexity significantly and still goes up to 500 km/hour, fast enough for Dubai to Abu Dhabi in 12 min. And you can have windows in that too  :)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 07:24:33 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #443 on: February 26, 2018, 08:18:18 AM »
I admire your perseverance, Rob.

One of the basic issues that came up in this thread is, that if they are going to build a MagLev in a tube, why not ditch the tube, and just build a good MagLev ?
The reduces cost and complexity significantly and still goes up to 500 km/hour, fast enough for Dubai to Abu Dhabi in 12 min. And you can have windows in that too  :)
Totally agree.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #444 on: February 26, 2018, 05:35:51 PM »
Hyperloop:
Immune to weather
Faster
No conflicts with ground traffic
Power not required over entire length; can be sustainably powered
Less infrastructure required

Maglev:
Ice/snow/blowing sand/wind(debris) can stop maglev operations
Slower
Requires more infrastructure and power over entire length
Risk of derailment
Ground based high speed rail system needs up to a 100 ft wide swath of dedicated land to build up foundations for both directions, forcing people to travel for several miles just to get to the other side of their property.
Requires fencing to prevent animals, people or vehicles from getting on to the track.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 06:09:42 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14312
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 208
  • Likes Given: 131
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #445 on: February 26, 2018, 06:38:10 PM »
I admire your perseverance, Rob.

One of the basic issues that came up in this thread is, that if they are going to build a MagLev in a tube, why not ditch the tube, and just build a good MagLev ?
The reduces cost and complexity significantly and still goes up to 500 km/hour, fast enough for Dubai to Abu Dhabi in 12 min. And you can have windows in that too  :)
Totally agree.

Blowing Sand.

(drops mike)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 133
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #446 on: February 26, 2018, 09:38:02 PM »
I see no reason to reiterate every technical detail already discussed or posted, just for you Sig. You can go back and read like everyone else (at least pay close attention to the MIT final report). Then you can erase almost everything in your posts #441 and also #445. That's why I wrote that I admire Rob's perseverance.
If I were to call the shots, I would go for HSR in most cases, not even a maglev. But if the choice is between a future not yet invented nor constructed transonic hyperloop and a maglev, the choice is pretty easy since the maglev exists and works today. This not just to explain to you, but also to other readers that might not have read everything.

You should maybe also consider erasing your post #446, unless you are the moderator for all of these solution threads?
Separately, there is a difference between reasoned, polite discussion (welcome) and trolling (not welcome). YMMV
When the argument depends on moving goalposts close to infinity, you’ve lost the debate.

So, please, feel free to not read, just ignore, this entire worthless (in your opinion) idea thread. 
Cue the trolls in three... two... one...
Fortunately for this planet and its people, hyperloop development will continue despite the incessant trolling on this thread.

The Hyperloop will continue as long as there are credulous investors.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #447 on: February 27, 2018, 05:00:18 AM »
The Hyperloop will continue as long as there are credulous investors.

Maybe we can lure in some more credulous investors by mounting a Solar Roadway over the Hype-R-Loop.  ;)
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3696
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 494
  • Likes Given: 1013
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #448 on: February 27, 2018, 05:44:47 AM »
Regardless of my own opinion regarding the Hyperloop, I do want to thank Sigmetnow for posting numerous updates here (and elsewhere on the forum). And I wish the level of acrimony on this thread would go down. Time is the ultimate judge, and it's not necessary to convince anyone while waiting. So all please try to avoid getting angry or taking offense if the others on the thread are not convinced. 10 years from now we can all go back here and find out who was right.
As some tests and trials are beginning, we can wait just one year to find out. May I suggest with respect to all involved that if no new criticism is forthcoming, just to hold on patiently until reality catches up with the hype.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 102
Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #449 on: February 27, 2018, 06:09:54 AM »
Yeah. You are right, oren.

It's just that when I google "Hyperloop", there are dozens and dozens of articles hyping that this system will provide low cost travel at 760 mph, and will transform society and solve traffic congestion and who knows what other hype, with people (including tax-payers funded organizations) investing millions into this pipe dream.

While when you look at this as an engineer, you will quickly notice they did not even address the even very basic problems like for example thermal expansion of the tube, airlocks (or the absence of them), safety in case of tube failure to name a few, and they have not tested ANYTHING of that, but most of all cost of the system, especially since they seem to be shooting for a MagLev in a vacuum tube, while MagLev even without the vacuum tube has proven to be too expensive for practical use.

So sorry for the sarcasm with the Solar Roads remark, but the issues still stand, and won't be resolved so easily.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 06:38:11 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.