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oren

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #450 on: February 27, 2018, 06:44:21 AM »
Yeah. You are right, oren.

It's just that when I google "Hyperloop", there are dozens and dozens of articles hyping that this system will provide low cost travel at 760 mph, and will transform society and solve traffic congestion and who knows what other hype, with people (including tax-payers funded organizations) investing millions into this pipe dream.

While when you look at this as an engineer, you will quickly notice they did not even address the even very basic problems like for example thermal expansion of the tube, airlocks (or the absence of them), safety in case of tube failure to name a few, and they have not tested ANYTHING of that, but most of all cost of the system, especially since they seem to be shooting for a MagLev in a vacuum tube, while MagLev even without the vacuum tube has proven to be too expensive for practical use.

So sorry for the sarcasm with the Solar Roads remark, but the issues still stand, and won't be resolved so easily.
I basically agree with your analysis, but I've said what I had to say and now I'm mostly waiting for reality to catch up. Same as with Solar Roadways.

Sleepy

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #451 on: February 27, 2018, 09:16:10 AM »
Adding one more comment here, to oren's and Rob's latest above. If you have any experience as an engineer, (building and solving technical issues in real life), you tend to focus on the issues and sift through whatever you can find rather quickly. To find possible solutions.
That's in your spinal cord (hopefully you use that expression in English...)

If you then discover that those who are working on this, simply has not attended those issues themselves and the companies involved are selling something that isn't solved, finished, built or even tested. Let's just say, that's surprising... There are real physical issues here, that there's no dispute about, not even from the MIT team. All credit to those guys.

I'm pretty much done with this now so I will stop commenting here until some real solutions are invented.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #452 on: February 27, 2018, 03:54:00 PM »
Hyperloop Transportation Technologies Collaborates with Munich Re to Insure Hyperloop

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT) and leading global insurer Munich Re have carried out a comprehensive risk analysis of HTT's Hyperloop technology and declared it feasible and insurable. The analysis constitutes a milestone for the future success of HTT and its Hyperloop technology.
Quote
PLAYA VISTA, Calif., Oct. 17, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- Hyperloop Transportation Technologies announced today that HTT's Hyperloop technology is feasible and insurable. After analysing risks and challenges, Munich Re has created the first Hyperloop Transportation Technologies Risk Report. Over the past year, a project team within Munich Re's Special Enterprise Risks Unit had been set up to consider the risks and challenges facing HTT's Hyperloop technology. Risk landscapes were developed not only for HTT, but also for HTT's Hyperloop technology itself. These risk landscapes shed light on enterprise and technological risk and document relevant external and internal influencing variables. The risk report forms the foundation for active strategic risk management.

Munich Re is of the opinion that the Hyperloop technology developed by HTT is both feasible and insurable in the medium term and that delivering the system demands a model represented by HTT's innovative approach.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-collaborates-with-munich-re-to-insure-hyperloop-300537989.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #453 on: February 27, 2018, 06:56:09 PM »
I see no reason to reiterate every technical detail already discussed or posted, just for you Sig. You can go back and read like everyone else (at least pay close attention to the MIT final report). Then you can erase almost everything in your posts #441 and also #445…

You should maybe also consider erasing your post #446, unless you are the moderator for all of these solution threads? 


Wow.  Delete non-personal, factual comments?!  Your approach to being “moderator” of the thread is most severe!  ;D ;D ;D 

Trying to censor a logical smack-down of the “maglev train in the desert is better” idea makes you look weak.  So… thanks, loser! ;) ;D
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oren

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #454 on: February 27, 2018, 07:01:06 PM »
Enough. Please... The last one responding is the one keeping the fire burning.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #455 on: February 27, 2018, 07:07:12 PM »
That’s the last from me.

Edit:  Well, the last personal comment. ;)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 07:28:50 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #456 on: February 27, 2018, 07:30:55 PM »
Hyperloop One has released some new photos and a better video about the display pod in City Walk Dubai. 

https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/first-look-our-dubai-hyperloop-pod
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gerontocrat

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #457 on: February 27, 2018, 09:44:27 PM »
The hyperloop - if it works, is not going to change life for the billions who have to save up for the bus-fare. Why get upset about something which is more or less meaningless in the future of our world ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #458 on: February 28, 2018, 05:18:52 AM »
Back to math.

Sigmetnow's new posting :
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/first-look-our-dubai-hyperloop-pod

shows that the Dubai pod has a capacity of 5 'gold' seats and 14 'silver' seats. That's 19 passengers per pod. The same video also claims that the capacity of the system is 5,000 passengers per hour each direction.

That suggests they need to launch a pod in each tube every 14 sec.

To me that violates the basic safety rule that a pod needs to be able to stop if the pod in front of it crashes.

From an analysis of capacity of Elon's white paper :

https://ggwash.org/view/32078/musks-hyperloop-math-doesnt-add-up

Quote
The Hyperloop pods will travel at up to 760 miles per hour, just under the speed of sound, with pods traveling about 30 seconds apart in the tube. They will have a maximum deceleration of 0.5 gs, which is equivalent to 10.9 mph per second. At that rate of braking, it will take a pod 68.4 seconds to come to a full stop.

That would take the capacity per tube down to just 1300 passengers / hour.

Even if the top speed on the Dubai - Abu Dhabi line is just 500 km/hr, at 1/2 g deceleration it would take 500,000 / (3600 * 9.8 / 2) = 28 sec to stop. Which means 2500 passengers / hour capacity.

So the 5,000 passengers per hour capacity is likely inflated by a factor of 2 - 4.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 05:34:59 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #459 on: February 28, 2018, 02:45:32 PM »
- When Boeing or Airbus shows off their new plane designs, they feature first class and business class, not economy class.  Have to imagine higher-capacity hyperloop pods will also be available, for those who need a cheaper fare.

- By definition, emergency braking in any vehicle is more forceful than normal braking.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #460 on: March 01, 2018, 03:12:30 PM »
“shows that the Dubai pod has a capacity of 5 'gold' seats and 14 'silver' seats. That's 19 passengers per pod. The same video also claims that the capacity of the system is 5,000 passengers per hour each direction.

That suggests they need to launch a pod in each tube every 14 sec.”

But there are three stations (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Fujairah).  So that means “only” ;) two launches per minute, per station, per direction, which is in line with expectations mentioned in one of the older Hyperloop One videos of launches every 30 seconds.

Edit: Also, each pod is individually computer-controlled — and speed will vary in different sections of the tube — allowing for safe distances between pods to be maintained.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 04:15:50 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #461 on: March 08, 2018, 07:45:07 AM »
Why is Hype-R-Loop doomed to fail ?
This guy sums it up nicely :

https://medium.com/@AntonioKowatsch/why-the-hyperloop-will-fail-d526aa24f6ae
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #462 on: March 08, 2018, 08:27:43 PM »
EmTech conference:  Emerging Technologies That Matter
Singapore, Jan 2018

“At EmTech Asia, we discussed how hyperloop could enable competitive economies.
For the full presentation:  https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=1m25s&v=Grkqk-Itbuc&feature=youtu.be
https://twitter.com/HyperloopOne/status/971459782937788416
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #463 on: March 08, 2018, 09:20:16 PM »
Overview of various hyperloop and related transportation companies.  Several videos are included.

Hyperloop is edging closer to reality
Five years in, things are starting to happen.
Quote
Plenty has happened in the five years since Elon Musk first published his white paper on a system he called Hyperloop. Since releasing that manifesto to the world, hundreds of people and hundreds of millions of dollars have been put to work, all in the service of bringing Musk's retro-futurist dream of a vacuum tube for people to life. And despite being less than a fever dream half a decade ago, the pace of innovation is notably increasing, with 2018 already including several big announcements regarding its future. ...
https://www.engadget.com/amp/2018/03/08/state-of-hyperloop-2018/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #464 on: March 10, 2018, 01:35:09 PM »
Elon Musk tweeted:
“Adjusting The Boring Company plan: all tunnels & Hyperloop will prioritize pedestrians & cyclists over cars”

“Will still transport cars, but only after all personalized mass transit needs are met. It’s a matter of courtesy & fairness. If someone can’t afford a car, they should go first.”

“Boring Co urban loop system would have 1000’s of small stations the size of a single parking space that take you very close to your destination & blend seamlessly into the fabric of a city, rather than a small number of big stations like a subway”

“Better video coming soon, but it would look a bit like this: “
https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/972245615735222273/video/1

Article:
Elon Musk’s Boring Company will focus on hyperloop and tunnels for pedestrians and cyclists
https://electrek.co/2018/03/09/elon-musk-boring-company-hyperloop-tunnels-pedestrian-cyclist/

Edit:
Elon Musk:  “I guess you could say it’s a 150 mph, underground, autonomous, electric bus that automatically switches between tunnels and lifts. So, yes, a bus.”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/972248154354495488
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 09:09:13 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #465 on: March 10, 2018, 02:01:45 PM »
Was Elon Musk’s announcement a response to this?

Cost for California bullet train system rises to $77.3 billion
Quote
The California bullet train project took a sharp jump in price Friday when the state rail authority announced the cost of connecting Los Angeles to San Francisco would total $77.3 billion, an increase of $13 billion from estimates two years ago, and could potentially rise as high as $98.1 billion.
...
The rail authority found that nobody could be sure what was under the ground in Fresno, driving up the cost of relocating sewers, water lines, communications cables and electrical conduits by hundreds of millions of dollars. Freight railroads insisted that the rail authority build barriers that would protect passenger trains from derailments on nearby freight tracks, a requirement that drove up costs by hundreds of millions of dollars, as well. ...
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-bullet-train-cost-increase-20180309-story.html

Just a note here that Boring Company tunnels would be deep enough underground (~40 feet / 12m) to avoid all those problems.... ;)
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oren

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #466 on: March 10, 2018, 03:53:47 PM »
I note an urban loop is mentioned, rather than hyperloop. I highly doubt vacuum is part of this.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #467 on: March 10, 2018, 03:59:25 PM »
I note an urban loop is mentioned, rather than hyperloop. I highly doubt vacuum is part of this.

I agree, the city ‘loops won’t be in a vacuum.  But this would seem to be great time for Musk to assure the Boring Company projects are part of the discussion for future mass transportation in California.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #468 on: March 11, 2018, 02:09:01 PM »
Elon Musk's hyperloop dream may come true — and soon
'It’s happening far faster than I would have ever expected, and it’s happening all over the world.'
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/elon-musk-s-hyperloop-dream-may-come-true-soon-ncna855041

Image:  Hyperloop Transportation Technologies capsule.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #469 on: April 02, 2018, 05:59:36 PM »
Virgin Hyperloop One Solidifies Commitment to Vision 2030 Through Pod Unveiling with His Royal Highness Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz and Richard Branson
Quote
Mojave Desert, California, APRIL 1, 2018 – Executives from Virgin Hyperloop One (VHO) today hosted His Royal Highness Mohammed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz, Crown Prince and Minister of Defense of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia during his visit to Virgin Galactic test site in the Mojave desert. During his visit, HRH the Crown Prince unveiled the Vision 2030 Hyperloop Pod, further cementing the commitment between the Kingdom and VHO to bring hyperloop technology to Saudi Arabia.

“We’re look forward to advancing the relationship between KSA and VHO while we develop innovative transport technologies like hyperloop, accelerating Vision 2030 objectives to transform the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia from a technology consumer to a technology innovator” said His Royal Highness Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz. “Hyperloop is the catalyst to enable all 4th generation technologies to flourish in the Kingdom while creating a vibrant society and thriving economy through visionary cities and high-tech clusters.”

With speeds 2-3 times faster than high-speed rail and an on-demand, direct to destination experience, hyperloop technology can reduce journey times across the kingdom, exponentially increasing connectivity across not only across KSA but throughout the GCC. Traveling from Riyadh to Jeddah would take 76 minutes (currently over 10 hours) utilizing the land bridge for both passenger and freight movement, positioning KSA as the gateway to 3 continents. Traveling from Riyadh to Abu Dhabi would take 48 minutes (currently over 8.5 hours). ...
https://hyperloop-one.com/virgin-hyperloop-one-solidifies-commitment-vision-2030-through-pod-unveiling-his-royal-highness-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman-bin-abdulaziz-and-richard-branson

Top image:  the Twitter joys of combining right-to-left Arabic, left-to-right English/URL, and word-wrap.  :)
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #470 on: April 03, 2018, 04:32:47 AM »
Traveling from Riyadh to Abu Dhabi would take 48 minutes (currently over 8.5 hours). ...

There they go again with the hype.

Riyadh to Abu Dhabi is something like 900 km.

If that trip is going to take 48 min, that implies the hyperloop pods run at an average of 1,125 km/hr. Cruising speed would have to be higher than that.

Yet we know from the NASA study and some basic engineering that Hyperloop will hit the Kantrowitz limit at about MACH 0.5 (600 km/hr).

Somehow Hyperloop marketing does not care about the laws of physics, or they deliberately ignore them to promote their product.

Either way, please don't be fooled by the 'hype' in 'hyperloop'.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #471 on: April 04, 2018, 04:24:33 PM »
The distance between Riyadh and Abu Dhabi is more like 483 miles, or 777 kilometers, as the crow flies.  Covering that distance in 48 minutes would mean an average of 971 kph (603 mph).

The “Kantrowitz limit” is no more a physical barrier to the hyperloop than the speed of sound is to aircraft.  Early jets broke apart at the “sound barrier,” which was thought to be impassible — until design and engineering developed the science behind supersonic flight.  The “sound barrier” is broken every day now, and the “Kantrowitz barrier” will be broken by new hyperloop compressor technology.

Quote
In order to break through the speed limit set by the Kantrowitz limit, there are two possible approaches. The first would increase the diameter of the tube in order to provide more bypass area for the air around the pod, preventing the flow from choking. This solution is not very practical in practice however, as the tube would have to be built very large, and logistical costs of such a large tube are impractical. An alternative, proposed by Elon Musk in his 2013 Hyperloop Alpha paper, places a compressor at the front of the pod.[4] The compressor actively draws in air from the front of the pod and transfers it to the rear, bypassing the gap between pod and tube while diverting a fraction of the flow to power a low-friction air-bearing suspension system.[4] The inclusion of a compressor in the Hyperloop pod circumvents the Kantrowitz limit, allowing the pod to travel at speeds over 700 mph in a relatively narrow tube.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantrowitz_limit
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #472 on: April 04, 2018, 05:21:11 PM »
Hyperloop Startup Gets Ready to Take on Musk
Bloomberg ‎April‎ ‎4‎, ‎2018‎ ‎12‎:‎00‎ ‎AM

Quote
A Canadian startup is the latest contender in the race to build a super-fast transportation system to rival futuristic projects backed by Elon Musk and British tycoon Richard Branson.

TransPod wants to raise $50 million for its own version of hyperloop technology, designed to ferry passengers at speeds of more than 1,000 kilometers (622 miles) an hour. The Toronto-based company is planning to build a half-size prototype near Limoges in central France by next year that’s better than a concept put forth by Musk, according to Chief Executive Officer Sebastien Gendron.
...
Quote
Canadian firm’s CEO says technology is more realistic, cheaper
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #473 on: April 04, 2018, 08:16:06 PM »
Here’s a Wired article on the Transpod.  (The Bloomberg one may be paywalled?)  This company is focussed on making the pod, rather than an entire hyperloop system.  Article includes videos with interior concepts.  Not a seatbelt in sight, but perhaps 2D passengers don’t need them.  ;)

This Canadian Hyperloop Concept Features a Faux Sunroof
Quote
Gendron is the CEO of Transpod, a Toronto startup stepping into the Hyperloop game. While competitors like Hyperloop One and Hyperloop Transportation Technologies plan to develop the entire system, Transpod and its 30 employees concentrate only on the pod that will shoot through the tubes at 700 mph or more. "We're not designing an entire airplane here," he says.

Last month, at the InnoTrans trade show in Berlin, Gendron revealed what remains very much a concept of the Transpod. Renderings reveal a 10-ton vehicle 82 feet long, capable of carrying 10 tons of passengers or freight. A compressor at the front draws what little air remains in the near-vacuum of the Hyperloop tube, and pumps it to the back of the pod, keeping drag to a minimum.

Although Gendron believes Hyperloop will carry freight long before passengers clamber inside, he's already considering how to present the idea of tube travel to the masses. Transpod's concept includes economy and business class renditions, along with a private car version. ...
https://www.wired.com/2016/10/hyperloop-transpod-concept-canada/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #474 on: April 04, 2018, 08:17:52 PM »
The latest Virgin Hyperloop pod is not just a mockup to demonstrate seating....  ;)

Virgin Hyperloop One releases video of full-scale working pod prototype in test tube track
https://electrek.co/2018/04/04/virgin-hyperloop-one-video-full-scale-working-pod-prototype-test-tube-track/
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #475 on: April 05, 2018, 06:33:40 AM »
...The compressor actively draws in air from the front of the pod and transfers it to the rear, bypassing the gap between pod and tube while diverting a fraction of the flow to power a low-friction air-bearing suspension system.[4] The inclusion of a compressor in the Hyperloop pod circumvents the Kantrowitz limit, allowing the pod to travel at speeds over 700 mph in a relatively narrow tube.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantrowitz_limit

Yeah. We talked about this before.
But none of the latest marketing presentations of Hyperloop pods show ANY such compressor.
And for a good reason : A large scale vacuum pump like that has not been invented yet. For starters, it would have to run at insane RPMs (about 10x the RPMs of a jet engine).

So nobody has solved the Kantrowitz limit problem yet.

Still they all claim they can go through it, including that new startup Tor is mentioning :

Quote
TransPod wants to raise $50 million for its own version of hyperloop technology, designed to ferry passengers at speeds of more than 1,000 kilometers (622 miles) an hour.

And to be fair, you CAN exceed the Kantrowitz limit, but you have to deal with exponentially increasing friction, requiring exponentially increasing propulsion power. If that's what they want to do, why don't they state so, and we can have a good discussion about Hyperloop versus regular Maglev without a tube.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 06:40:49 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #476 on: April 05, 2018, 09:47:32 AM »
A reminder of Musk's schematic for his "pod"





Rube Goldberg would have been proud, but he'd have figured out some way to relieve the pressure in that live steam container.


Someone will built with a car in a tube, and it will be named Hyper - something. It won't have much resemblance to Musk's schematic.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #477 on: April 08, 2018, 07:50:31 PM »
This is just the electric-motors-on-wheels “pusher pod” that provides the initial propulsion to the student hyperloop test pods inside SpaceX’s 1.2 km tube.

Elon Musk: 
“Upgraded SpaceX/Tesla Hyperloop pod speed test soon. Will try to reach half speed of sound (and brake) within ~1.2km.
This is kinda nutty for such a short distance, so could easily end up being shredded metal, but exciting either way”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/982830466913845250

Image below. Short, blurry video from the pod at the link:  https://www.instagram.com/p/BYckipugds5/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #478 on: April 11, 2018, 08:40:27 AM »
I've been away from the discussion for a long time (travel).  Perhaps some of this has been covered but I didn't see it in a quick scan.

Quote
I guess they are going to "muscle" their way through the Kantrowitz limit, by mounting more linear motors in the track.

I don't fully understand this.  It seems like there is an assumption that the pod will have to force its way through a standing mass of (low density), compressing in as it moves. 

Will it not be the case that the air inside the tube will also be moving in the direction of the pods in the case of a true loop?  Each pod will push some air forward as the pod ahead leaves a small vacuum in its wake.  After awhile the air in the loop should be moving at pod speed. 

Everything in the tube should be traveling at the same speed.  Energy inputs should be needed only to overcome moving air/tunnel wall friction.
---

There will need to be sidings.  They haven't been designed yet (at least publicly) mainly because they are not yet needed.  The first task is to get the basic part of the system working.  A pod should be able to leave the main tube and move onto a siding at full speed.  A door can close at each end of the siding, slower at the rear to create some forward resistance to aid braking. 

When stopped doors can close close to both ends of the pod, the pod moves to the passenger platform area and another pod take its place for entering the main loop.  Very little vacuum to break or recreate.
--

By going into deep tunnels the problem of heat expansion disappears.  Land costs drop to about nothing, just the cost of surface area entrances.

As long as explosives can be kept out of the pods then the probability of a terrorist attack drop close to zero.  There is currently technology that uses fiber optic lines to detect any activity in the vicinity.  The systems have been built for perimeter  detection. 

The fiber optic cable is buried, a regular stream of light bursts is sent down the cable.  Any seismic activity within range causes a readable change in signal arrival time.  The system can detect approaching footsteps and can determine human or animal.  It can detect shoveling meters away.  It can tell if activity is getting closer or moving away.

A similar system should make it pretty much impossible for someone to tunnel down to attack the loop tunnel.
--

If there's a need to suddenly kill the vacuum perhaps the solution would be to have an additional tunnel between the outgoing and incoming tunnel.  Leave it at outside air pressure or even somewhat pressurize it.  (Rent the space for utility cables.)

Put emergency air exchange as determined distances.  If the system needs to be quickly stopped then input air between pods  all around the loop.  That would help rapid braking.  It would eliminate the "wall of rushing air" problem.  And it would provide breathing air for pod passengers.

I think the solution for an above surface tube was to create venting doors along the loop which would kill the vacuum and provide air for passengers.
--

Aisles and toilets.  Needed for multiple hour journeys.  We don't put toilets on our subway systems because people are not on for extended times.  We might end up with smaller diameter tunnels for NYC to DC type travel and larger tunnel/pods for LA to Dallas/Fort Worth.
--

While some people believe we should not travel far and/or fast they will not be able to sell that belief to the general public.  People do not want to give up something they already have.  If people were willing to sacrifice we would have solved the climate change problem long ago.

We have to find acceptable alternatives.  For long distance travel we need an alternative that is close to being as fast as passenger jet travel and about the same cost.  If what we come up with is only almost as fast and only almost as inexpensive then it will take governmental action to force the change.  What we really, really need is faster and cheaper.  At least as fast and cheaper or faster for at the same cost.

The 'loop looks like it could be faster.  Not only traveling somewhat faster but cutting 'travel to the airport' and waiting for takeoff/taxi time.  Cheaper?  Way too early to know.

A lot of smart people think there's a good chance they can make it work.  I think the smart thing would be to hold back on the condemnation and see what tricks they have up their sleeves. 

oren

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #479 on: April 11, 2018, 12:16:55 PM »
I've been away from the discussion for a long time (travel).
Welcome back Bob!

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #480 on: April 11, 2018, 09:55:15 PM »
Re emergency exits and air, this is from the plans for the 35-mile Baltimore-DC tunnel:

Quote
...about 20 (but no more than 70) ventilation shafts/emergency exits measuring 12 to 24 ft. in diameter, again located on private property nearby. These will be connected to the tunnel via another subsurface tunnel
https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/latest-hyperloop-tunnel-map-reveals-route-between-two-key-cities/39648

Edit:  correction:  the Baltimore-DC project will initially be the sled/skate “‘loop” technology, before the hyperloop is built in it.  So at this point, the tunnels will be filled with breathable air,  not a vaccuum!  :)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 04:26:35 PM by Sigmetnow »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #481 on: April 12, 2018, 04:49:50 AM »
I've been away from the discussion for a long time (travel).  Perhaps some of this has been covered but I didn't see it in a quick scan.

Quote
I guess they are going to "muscle" their way through the Kantrowitz limit, by mounting more linear motors in the track.

I don't fully understand this.  It seems like there is an assumption that the pod will have to force its way through a standing mass of (low density), compressing in as it moves. 

Will it not be the case that the air inside the tube will also be moving in the direction of the pods in the case of a true loop?  Each pod will push some air forward as the pod ahead leaves a small vacuum in its wake.  After awhile the air in the loop should be moving at pod speed.   

Not really.  Air in the transit tubes is in contact with stationary walls.  Air that is any significant distance from a moving pod is going to be approximately stationary.  So a moving pod dams up air in front, and leaves a stronger vacuum behind.

As to letting air into the transit tube, that's the last thing you want to do, if avoidable.  Under relatively high vacuum, keeping the tube evacuated is *very* energy-intensive.  Small leaks quickly become ruinously expensive.

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #482 on: April 12, 2018, 07:11:04 AM »
Quote
Air that is any significant distance from a moving pod is going to be approximately stationary.  So a moving pod dams up air in front, and leaves a stronger vacuum behind.

And the vacuum behind the moving pod is being filled by the air being pushed ahead by the following pod. 

It seems to me that as the system operates a 'wind' traveling in the same direction of the pods will be created.  There will be some frictional losses and turbulence along the edges but, in general, a 'plug' of air will be traveling along with the pods.


Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #483 on: April 12, 2018, 04:29:30 PM »
...
As to letting air into the transit tube, that's the last thing you want to do, if avoidable.  Under relatively high vacuum, keeping the tube evacuated is *very* energy-intensive.  Small leaks quickly become ruinously expensive.

Yes, I’ve edited my comment above, because:
The Baltimore-DC project will initially be the sled/skate “‘loop” technology, before the hyperloop is built in it.  So at this point, the tunnels will be filled with breathable air,  not a vaccuum!  :)
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TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #484 on: April 12, 2018, 10:06:40 PM »
...
As to letting air into the transit tube, that's the last thing you want to do, if avoidable.  Under relatively high vacuum, keeping the tube evacuated is *very* energy-intensive.  Small leaks quickly become ruinously expensive.

Yes, I’ve edited my comment above, because:
The Baltimore-DC project will initially be the sled/skate “‘loop” technology, before the hyperloop is built in it.  So at this point, the tunnels will be filled with breathable air,  not a vaccuum!  :)
So we're talking about a maglev subway? or a hovercraft subway?
Terry

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #485 on: April 12, 2018, 10:20:42 PM »
...
As to letting air into the transit tube, that's the last thing you want to do, if avoidable.  Under relatively high vacuum, keeping the tube evacuated is *very* energy-intensive.  Small leaks quickly become ruinously expensive.

Yes, I’ve edited my comment above, because:
The Baltimore-DC project will initially be the sled/skate “‘loop” technology, before the hyperloop is built in it.  So at this point, the tunnels will be filled with breathable air,  not a vaccuum!  :)
So we're talking about a maglev subway? or a hovercraft subway?
Terry

This one.
Images below; short (new) vid at the link: https://www.boringcompany.com
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TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #486 on: April 12, 2018, 10:57:28 PM »
So it's a cable car running on wheels in a tunnel?
Are both the front and back ends tied to the cable to keep it from skidding out in the turns?

At 123mph that sloping front is going to put a lot of downward force on the front tires. Why would they intentionally do that?


That's not a tunnel, that's a cavern!
Terry


This is actually being built right?
All the inspectors have signed off on this design?
It's financed, insured, and will be running in an Elon Decade?

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #487 on: April 13, 2018, 12:34:05 AM »
So it's a cable car running on wheels in a tunnel?
Are both the front and back ends tied to the cable to keep it from skidding out in the turns?

At 123mph that sloping front is going to put a lot of downward force on the front tires. Why would they intentionally do that?


That's not a tunnel, that's a cavern!
Terry


This is actually being built right?
All the inspectors have signed off on this design?
It's financed, insured, and will be running in an Elon Decade?

Elon commented some years ago about the amazing amount of room that could be built onto a Model X chassis if you didn’t have to format it as a car.  At the time, he mentioned a “new type of transit” — he may have been referring to these pods.  I think the ‘Loop pods will be a variation on that chassis, using electric motors to drive the wheels and cameras/radar/sonic sensors following that center line (which will provide electronic guidance/communication and maybe wireless charging).   But no cable — the pods will eventually be able to exit the tunnel and finish the trip by road to its destination.

Musk’s SpaceX autonomous drone ships hold their place within 1 meter on wave-tossed seas, and the Falcon 9 rockets land precisely without talking to the ship or the Landing Zone point.  A program to follow a stripe in a tunnel at 125 mph would be easy, in comparison to what he’s trying to achieve with Tesla Autopilot on constantly-varying roads and traffic today.

The shape of the front of the pod looks a lot like the Tesla truck silhouette, to me.  ;)  And that truck has a lower drag coefficient than a Bugatti Chiron, so I think it would work just fine.


Have not seen a working pod yet, although given the above, it should be comparatively easy to make — very little new technology needed.  They have said that the Baltimore-DC tunnel should take 20 months or less to be completed.  Once they get the permits, no doubt we’ll see more of the pod technology.  And more Boring Company merchandise for sale, to help finance the thing! ;D

Elon has said that anything beyond 5 years is like “infinity” to him.  And compared to some of his other projects, this one seems easily surmountable — except for getting those permits!  I think we’ll see this in operation sooner than anyone expects.
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TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #488 on: April 13, 2018, 02:04:04 AM »
Jeez Sig
You are one of my favorite posters here. I see so much in these Tesla Tropes that I find "foolish", to put the nicest spin I can on it.
I recognise that Elon is a hero of yours, and hope against hope that his plans will all succeed.


Is this but an underground automated highway then?
Why break the flow of traffic by installing elevators, wouldn't ramps be more practical?
Robots following painted lines have been available as toys for decades, so no breakthrough there.
Cars driving at high speeds in tunnels are hardly new. I drove the Pensy Pike in the 60's.
The autobahn runs faster, a subway moves more people, where is the magic?


As far as reusing rockets, doesn't it depend how much of the lift potential you want to divert to the landing hardware and fuel? I approve of reusing and recycling as long as it doesn't require more energy and parts to effect the reuse than the recovered parts are worth.
We've been landing, and "reusing" rockets since we landed on the moon.


Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #489 on: April 13, 2018, 06:19:38 AM »
Quote
The autobahn runs faster, a subway moves more people, where is the magic?

Some cars on the autobahn might run faster.  This system should carry a large number of people at 120+ MPH speeds in safety. 

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #490 on: April 14, 2018, 02:09:28 AM »
Terry wrote:
Quote
Jeez Sig
You are one of my favorite posters here. I see so much in these Tesla Tropes that I find "foolish", to put the nicest spin I can on it.
I recognise that Elon is a hero of yours, and hope against hope that his plans will all succeed.

Elon has voiced a lot of “crazy” ideas — but too many of them have come to reality to simply pass his ideas off as “never gonna happen.”  He works harder than most, has more sustainable goals than most, and views corporate finance and personal wealth differently than most, so it’s no surprise, really, that he is achieving what so many have insisted is impossible.  I enjoy following his amazing progress!

Quote
Is this but an underground automated highway then?
Why break the flow of traffic by installing elevators, wouldn't ramps be more practical?
Robots following painted lines have been available as toys for decades, so no breakthrough there.
Cars driving at high speeds in tunnels are hardly new. I drove the Pensy Pike in the 60's.
The autobahn runs faster, a subway moves more people, where is the magic?

Ramps take up too much room; multiple elevators can be installed in the area of a few parking spaces, and they also help control the flow of traffic entering the tunnels.  This is important for building lots of tunnel entrances/exits in cities, where gridlock is the worst.  As Musk has said, people from hundreds of floors of office buildings all trying to travel through the city at street level at the same time does not work.  Exiting, or popping up, near your office building is key to solving urban gridlock.

You are right that many aspects of the ‘Loop already exist.  The trick is to combine them in a new way to solve those “soul-crushing” traffic nightmares where existing transportation options have not succeeded.

“Underground automated highway” is a great description!  Except that it’s not just everybody driving through a tunnel on Autopilot.  It is your car, or a people-pod, sitting on a wheeled skate that is computer-controlled, providing the greatest efficiency and safety by completely eliminating human driving, and adding scheduling and traffic control.

Elon Musk has described the system this way: “I guess you could say it’s a 150 mph, underground, autonomous, electric bus that automatically switches between tunnels and lifts. So, yes, a bus.”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/972248154354495488


Quote
As far as reusing rockets, doesn't it depend how much of the lift potential you want to divert to the landing hardware and fuel? I approve of reusing and recycling as long as it doesn't require more energy and parts to effect the reuse than the recovered parts are worth.
We've been landing, and "reusing" rockets since we landed on the moon.

Reusing rockets is key to making space travel affordable.  Think of what a plane ticket would cost if we threw away each 747 after one use?  Or threw away each car after we emptied the tank or battery once?

Yes, carrying the extra fuel for returning to land means a bit less payload can be carried to orbit.  Some missions still require the rocket to be expended.  But reuse makes a mission much cheaper.  Musk expects the latest (and last) “Block 5” version of the Falcon 9 to be used about 10 times with only minor refurbishment, and up to 100 times with additional maintenance.  The BFR will take over from there; able to make multiple earth, earth-orbit, even Mars trips.

The moon landings did not reuse rockets, except on the modules that remained in orbit.   The lunar module had two stages – a descent stage for landing on the Moon, and an ascent stage to place the astronauts back into lunar orbit.  The descent stage remained behind on the moon. Along with the lunar rovers, experiments, and flags. ;)  The ascent stage is jettisoned and never makes it back to earth.

Edit:  P.S.  Landing on the moon, with no atmosphere and 1/6 the gravity of earth, is comparatively a world apart ;) from the very high re-entry speeds and burn-up-in-the-atmosphere challenges of landing on earth. :D
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 01:15:18 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #491 on: April 14, 2018, 02:57:00 AM »
Musk does what every innovator does.  He starts with an interesting idea and makes modifications along the way as problems are encountered and as better solutions present themselves.

I suspect at some point Musk (and/or other people in his group) were thinking about the potential problems of building the 'white paper' version of the Hyperloop - land access, thermal expansion, yahoos shooting holes in the tubes - and the idea of going underground popped up.

That seems to have taken the project to the point where it's time to drill a couple of tunnels and see what the practical problems might be underground. 

Making those initial tunnels pay for themselves is desirable because it means that lots of capital wouldn't be stranded in research.  Building a rapid route to the LA airport and having deep pocket people pay for it is one route.  Building what is essentially a high speed subway between two cities is another. 

There's probably enough need for 100 to 150 MPH subways to create income to fund what may be the next step, sealing up another tunnel so that it can be turned into near vacuums and used for passenger jet speeds.

Building a number of high speed subways could create the scale at which Boring Company can custom design, even manufacture the tunneling machines and tunnel liners that best fit their needs.  There could be billions of dollars of profits in building intercity 150 MPH underground travel.

Those billions could pay for a first Hyperloop build somewhere.

Musk has done the same thing with SpaceX.  He found a way to create a revenue stream via launching satellites and supplying the Space Station with smaller rockets.  That revenue stream creates the money to build a rocket capable of reaching Mars. 

Sometimes very large goals are too hard to reach in one step.  A bit of clever thinking might find ways to reach the final goal in a set of successive approximations in an affordable way.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #492 on: April 14, 2018, 03:43:40 AM »
HTT is building a hyperloop in Toulouse, France.

“The best way to predict the future is to create it. Today marks the official arrival of our passenger and freight tubes in Toulouse, France. Building the #Hyperloop begins now. #HyperloopTTMovement #HyperloopTT “
https://mobile.twitter.com/hyperlooptt/status/984450076838776832
Image below.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #493 on: April 14, 2018, 10:16:48 AM »
I've been away from the discussion for a long time (travel).  Perhaps some of this has been covered but I didn't see it in a quick scan.

Quote
I guess they are going to "muscle" their way through the Kantrowitz limit, by mounting more linear motors in the track.

I don't fully understand this.  It seems like there is an assumption that the pod will have to force its way through a standing mass of (low density), compressing in as it moves. 

Will it not be the case that the air inside the tube will also be moving in the direction of the pods in the case of a true loop?  Each pod will push some air forward as the pod ahead leaves a small vacuum in its wake.  After awhile the air in the loop should be moving at pod speed. 

Welcome back, Bob !

And yes, you are right. If Hyperloop were a true loop, then each pod will push the air column in front of it and apart from a series of air pockets being pushed through the loop there would be no impediment to breaking the Kantrowitz limit.

But none of the Hyperloop designs actually depict a true loop. They all start with an air lock and end with an air lock.

Also, if Hyperloop would be a true loop, there would have to be 'splits' in the track, from the start stations and to the end stations. and I've not seen any design of a 'split' in the maglev tracks for Hyperloop. Did you ?
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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #494 on: April 14, 2018, 04:59:21 PM »
It will take some time to build a 'mature' loop system.  So far only a half mile of tube has been built.  In order to pull/push a plug of air it will take two tubes connected at each end.  That can't be built overnight. 

And, for the same reason, no 'sidings' with airlocks have yet been built.  The first working 'loop may well be a point to point system with no stations along the way.  The smart approach would be, I think, to build a simple system covering a modest distance and see if there are problems that might need to be solved or even be unsolvable.

The Dubai to Abu Dhabi build makes a lot of sense to me.  It's a straight line with pretty much no real estate acquisition issues.  If the system works but doesn't work well enough for passengers there's a need for freight movement.  If a high partial vacuum can't be maintained then it could serve as a "roadway" for 100 to 150 MPH battery powered buses protected from the harsh sunshine and occasional sandstorms.

We may find that sidings are not practical/possible.  All systems might have to be point to point.  The terminal of each system might look more like a 'H' rather than a loop.  The crossbar of the H might be the path the air takes and the upper arms airlocks where pods enter and exit the tube system.  Above the H would be the terminal where pods are unloaded/loaded and rotated to reenter the system via the other upper arm.


Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #495 on: April 19, 2018, 09:09:03 PM »
The Missouri Hyperloop Coalition just added another key player in its quest to advance a Hyperloop route in Missouri:  State Director of Economic Development Rob Dixon.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2018/04/18/key-player-joins-missouris-quest-to-secure.amp.html

Missouri Director of Economic Development Rob Dixon Joins Missouri Hyperloop Coalition
https://ded.mo.gov/content/missouri-director-economic-development-rob-dixon-joins-missouri-hyperloop-coalition

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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #496 on: April 29, 2018, 04:56:02 PM »
DP World, “one of the worlds leading enablers of global trade with over 78 marine terminals across six continents,” announces in Dubai a partnership with Virgin Hyperloop One to create DP World Cargospeed, the first international brand for hyperloop-enabled cargo systems to support the fast, sustainable and efficient delivery of palletised cargo.

https://twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/990586643626242048
Brief video of the concept.  (Images below.)

http://web.dpworld.com
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #497 on: April 29, 2018, 05:10:24 PM »
DP World, “one of the worlds leading enablers of global trade with over 78 marine terminals across six continents,” announces in Dubai a partnership with Virgin Hyperloop One to create DP World Cargospeed, the first international brand for hyperloop-enabled cargo systems to support the fast, sustainable and efficient delivery of palletised cargo.

https://twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/990586643626242048
Brief video of the concept.  (Images below.)

http://web.dpworld.com

To me, this makes much more sense than passenger hyperloop.  A lot of the technical difficulty with hyperloop is ensuring the passenger pods are 100% safe and comfortable.  A lot of cargo wouldn't even need atmospheric pressure in transit.  A crash wouldn't lead to multi-million dollar suits.  And cargo doesn't get irate when a 3-hour trip gets delayed by 3 hours.
 

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #498 on: April 29, 2018, 10:09:38 PM »
From the beginning the idea has been to run a freight-only system for some amount of time, perhaps a year.  And then let people use the system after it has been proven safe enough.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #499 on: April 30, 2018, 08:50:21 PM »
Although funding details have been scarce, it is interesting that the Dubai cargo project appears to be privately financed.  No government involvement has been mentioned.

From 2016:
Dubai’s port funds Hyperloop One with $50 million to make hyperloop a reality
https://electrek.co/2016/10/13/dubais-port-funds-hyperloop-one-with-50-million-to-make-hyperloop-a-reality/

Recent Virgin post:
https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/new-cargo-brand-built-hyperloop-technology-demand-world


Edit:
DP World Group says it has made “a significant investment in Virgin Hyperloop One.”
Quote
Sultan Ahmed Bin Sulayem, DP World Group Chairman and CEO: “Throughout history, cargo has always been the catalyst for transport revolutions. With a bold vision for the future, Dubai has always pushed the boundaries of innovation. This spirit of innovation has enabled us to become a world leader in logistics. We have made a significant investment in Virgin Hyperloop One because we see the need for a hyperloop-enabled cargo network to support rapid, on-demand deliveries globally. We believe in Virgin Hyperloop One’s long-term vision. They are the right partner to shape the future of global logistics, and we look forward to developing the first DP World Cargospeed systems with them.”
http://www.mediaoffice.ae/en/media-center/news/29/4/2018/mohammed-bin-rashid-attends-launch-of-dp-world-cargospeed.aspx
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 01:13:02 AM by Sigmetnow »
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