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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #500 on: May 08, 2018, 01:21:59 PM »
The “other” hyperloop company, HyperloopTT, announces a project in UAE centered in a residential area of Alghadeer, with connections to Abu Dhabi and Dubai, aiming for a 10-km section to be complete in time for the Expo 2020.

Abu Dhabi Hyperloop route announced following Aldar agreement
Quote
A commercial high-speed Hyperloop system is to be built in the next two years in Abu Dhabi, under a landmark deal signed by Aldar Properties and one of the leading companies behind the technology.

Construction on a 10km Hyperloop transport system, using electro-magnetic levitation engineering to carry pods at 1,200kph, will begin in a critical development area between Abu Dhabi and Dubai in 2019.

A transport hub and XO Square Innovation Centre for ongoing research and development by Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, the California-based firm behind the project, will be developed in Aldar’s Seih Al Sdeirah landbank in Abu Dhabi.
...
“Alghadeer sits at such a strategic point within the UAE – close to major growth areas of both Abu Dhabi and Dubai, that it makes sense to pair it with rapid transport opportunities.
...
The site is close to the residential development of Alghadeer, where Aldar has planned a Dh10 billion development including 611 affordable homes starting from Dh290,000.
...
“This agreement creates the basis for the first commercial Hyperloop system in the world here in the Emirates, with the goal of eventually connecting Abu Dhabi to Al Ain, Dubai, and Riyadh, Saudi Arabia,” said Bibop Gresta, chairman of HyperloopTT.

“With regulatory support, we hope the first section will be operational in time for Expo 2020.”

HyperloopTT plans construction of the line in several phases starting within the ten kilometre allocation, with further development aimed at creating a commercial Hyperloop network across the Emirates and beyond.
https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/abu-dhabi-hyperloop-route-announced-following-aldar-agreement-1.722701

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies is on its way to the UAE
Quote
As with its test track in France, HyperloopTT intends to build the new line in a number of phases, first beginning with a 10 kilometer (6.2 mile) route. Further development will aim to construct an entire Hyperloop network throughout the Emirates and surrounding regions.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-uae/
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oren

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #501 on: May 08, 2018, 02:00:12 PM »
Quote
A 10km Hyperloop transport system, using electro-magnetic levitation engineering to carry pods at 1,200kph
As usual the hype is a major component here. To get to 1200 kph and then stop over a span of 10km, you need to accelerate at a full g for about 30sec, and deccelerate at full g for the next 30sec. Total fantasy BS. Obviously it's not what they plan to build, but somehow the name Hyperloop comes with all these magic speeds.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #502 on: May 08, 2018, 03:15:38 PM »
Quote
A 10km Hyperloop transport system, using electro-magnetic levitation engineering to carry pods at 1,200kph
As usual the hype is a major component here. To get to 1200 kph and then stop over a span of 10km, you need to accelerate at a full g for about 30sec, and deccelerate at full g for the next 30sec. Total fantasy BS. Obviously it's not what they plan to build, but somehow the name Hyperloop comes with all these magic speeds.

So if the first, shorter routes don’t get up to the technology’s highest potential speed, the entire project is a fantasy?  I think not.
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jai mitchell

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #503 on: May 08, 2018, 03:28:23 PM »
why would it be a fantasy to have an object accelerate at 1g for 30 seconds (or 2gs for 8 seconds)?

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oren

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #504 on: May 08, 2018, 04:36:15 PM »
So if the first, shorter routes don’t get up to the technology’s highest potential speed, the entire project is a fantasy?  I think not.
You may be right. But I prefer that articles not contain untrue statements. And I am extra sensitive to statements about Hyperloop speed, as I expect real-life projects to  run at much lower speeds instead of those touted in the headlines. (Due to the technical problem of vacuum, and other considerations).

why would it be a fantasy to have an object accelerate at 1g for 30 seconds (or 2gs for 8 seconds)?
Because it expends too much energy to save too little travel time, and increases risks for nothing. And because passengers won't be happy to suffer these strong acceleration and then braking forces just to save a minute or two of travel time. Maybe I am assuming incorrectly that this Hyperloop is for human transport.

jai mitchell

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #505 on: May 08, 2018, 05:09:34 PM »
Re: energy, not as much as you think
Re: passengers, aren't we talking about freight transport?  pretty sure deliveries to the space station receive upwards of 5gs.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #506 on: May 08, 2018, 05:29:51 PM »

The Concorde accelerated from 0 to 225 mph in 30 seconds with no discomfort to the passengers.  At that rate the Hyperloop would reach its top speed in less than two minutes.
 
I would imagine with a 10 km/6 mile route the top speed wouldn't be great.  Passengers might experience "30 seconds" of rapid acceleration and told that if the route was longer acceleration would last X minutes until they were moving as fast as a  passenger jet.  A short run like that would be a demonstration of what might be.

jai mitchell

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #507 on: May 08, 2018, 05:47:23 PM »
my calc for 1000 Kg freight accelerating at 41.7 m/s^2 (about 4.1gs) for 8 seconds to reach 1,200 km/h (333.33 m/s) is 79.4 kWh. (at 70% net efficiency - 30% loss)
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TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #508 on: May 08, 2018, 05:53:28 PM »
I understand that the 10K ride is just a demonstration, but it's a damn expensive demo that will only be possible if lots of Mid Eastern Oil is sold. :o If they do the full hyperloop thing with maglev, a deep vacuum, and passengers I'll still be very much impressed.


Will it be above ground or in tunnels?

Terry




Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #509 on: May 08, 2018, 06:04:31 PM »
I understand that the 10K ride is just a demonstration, but it's a damn expensive demo that will only be possible if lots of Mid Eastern Oil is sold. :o If they do the full hyperloop thing with maglev, a deep vacuum, and passengers I'll still be very much impressed.


Will it be above ground or in tunnels?

Terry

The 10k ‘loops in India and the UAE are the first segments of longer routes, not test tracks that will be abandoned.  I believe they will be mostly above ground.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #510 on: May 08, 2018, 06:35:08 PM »
Quote
79.4 kWh

At the wholesale rate of $0.06/kWh that's less than a nickel.

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #511 on: May 08, 2018, 06:50:34 PM »

The 10k ‘loops in India and the UAE are the first segments of longer routes, not test tracks that will be abandoned.  I believe they will be mostly above ground.


Understood, but having something up and running in time for EXPO indicates that the demo factor is certainly some portion of the mix.
Above ground in that part of the world might require some amazing expansion joints. I wonder what the tube will be made of, or if there will be any effort to cool it in the noonday sun.
In Las Vegas you'll burn your feet walking on an exposed concrete patio deck and I expect that their desert is more harsh than the Mojave. Just looked it up and they only experience a 42C or 76F temperature swing - much warmer winters than I'd thought.
Terry

jai mitchell

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #512 on: May 08, 2018, 07:20:39 PM »
Quote
79.4 kWh

At the wholesale rate of $0.06/kWh that's less than a nickel.

That kind of generation over 8 seconds would require something akin to 12 2,000 kg flywheels (or a massive capacitor bank) for energy storage, similar to the kind of energy pulse systems used in fusion energy research.    It would be much more than wholesale electricity for that kind of storage and (nearly instantaneous) power draw.  say, $1.00 per kWh.  That being said, if a capacitor system was used then conceivably, a regenerative braking system could recapture a significant amount of that energy on the other end.
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TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #513 on: May 08, 2018, 09:41:53 PM »
That kind of generation over 8 seconds would require something akin to 12 2,000 kg flywheels (or a massive capacitor bank) for energy storage, similar to the kind of energy pulse systems used in fusion energy research.    It would be much more than wholesale electricity for that kind of storage and (nearly instantaneous) power draw.  say, $1.00 per kWh.  That being said, if a capacitor system was used then conceivably, a regenerative braking system could recapture a significant amount of that energy on the other end.
No Wheels - No Brakes  :(
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #514 on: May 08, 2018, 11:10:38 PM »
That kind of generation over 8 seconds would require something akin to 12 2,000 kg flywheels (or a massive capacitor bank) for energy storage, similar to the kind of energy pulse systems used in fusion energy research.    It would be much more than wholesale electricity for that kind of storage and (nearly instantaneous) power draw.  say, $1.00 per kWh.  That being said, if a capacitor system was used then conceivably, a regenerative braking system could recapture a significant amount of that energy on the other end.
No Wheels - No Brakes  :(
Terry

The student competition pods have wheels, used during the acceleration phase until the maglev lifts them, and brakes for deceleration, which could also be used for regeneration. 
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crandles

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #515 on: May 09, 2018, 12:17:15 AM »
Quote
79.4 kWh

At the wholesale rate of $0.06/kWh that's less than a nickel.

Less than a nickel or less than 5 dollars?

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #516 on: May 09, 2018, 12:31:06 AM »
The student competition pods have wheels, used during the acceleration phase until the maglev lifts them, and brakes for deceleration, which could also be used for regeneration.
I thought wheels presented a problem at maglev speeds?
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #517 on: May 09, 2018, 07:11:55 AM »
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the "79.4 kWh for 8 seconds".  I read it as a total electricity use of just under 80 kWh spread across 8 seconds.  Or is it 8 seconds of ~80 kW draw?

Other question - $5.  Sorry.  Damn jumping dots.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #518 on: May 09, 2018, 02:34:52 PM »
The student competition pods have wheels, used during the acceleration phase until the maglev lifts them, and brakes for deceleration, which could also be used for regeneration.
I thought wheels presented a problem at maglev speeds?
Terry

The wheels only touch the ground during the acceleration phase, and the deceleration phase (and at rest ;) ).  The maglev lifts the pod/wheels off the ground once it gets up to a certain speed.
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TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #519 on: May 09, 2018, 05:09:04 PM »
Has anyone considered what to do with all the heat generated by these pods?


They're essentially running inside an elongated thermos bottle while generating heat from any number of sources.
Bearings in electric motors and such are typically supplied with a cooling fan. Operating in a vacuum is going to create local hot spots as well as a more generalised increase in temperature that will be difficult to dissipate.
With maglev in a vacuum there's no conductive path for excess heat, it can't be shed to the nonexistent atmosphere in the tube, and radiation is simply not efficient at the required deltas.


Elon's original design called for a steam containment vessel that was to be removed and replaced at each stop, but I think (hope) that they've ditched that approach.


I hate being one that keeps raising doubts about this technology, but questions keep popping into my mind.  :-\
Terry

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #520 on: May 09, 2018, 06:21:55 PM »
Elon's original design called for a steam containment vessel that was to be removed and replaced at each stop, but I think (hope) that they've ditched that approach.


I hate being one that keeps raising doubts about this technology, but questions keep popping into my mind.  :-\
Terry

I'd raised this concern previously myself.  My idea was to have a load of dry ice dropped into a reservoir on the pod at each stop.  Venting CO2 into the transit tube may not be ideal, but a heat sink of some sort seems sorely needed.  A storage tank of pressurized steam seems like a very hazardous  concept.

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #521 on: May 09, 2018, 08:23:01 PM »
  My idea was to have a load of dry ice dropped into a reservoir on the pod at each stop.  Venting CO2 into the transit tube may not be ideal, but a heat sink of some sort seems sorely needed.  A storage tank of pressurized steam seems like a very hazardous  concept.
Anything that dumps the heat into the evacuated tube adds to the difficulty of maintaining a vacuum. A block of water ice would sublimate and keep an oil bath at a reasonable temperature, but then we'd have a tube filled with super saturated (air)? that would cause huge problems for the following pod.
Whatever the solution is will require the heat to be transported to some sink - possibly using a non volatile pumped oil - that can then be removed from the pod and the tube, chilled, then reinstalled on the pod (or the next pod).
Solutions such as Musk's high pressure steam container might work for very short runs, though it seems extremely dangerous - but that's no solution for a loop linking LA and San Francisco.
A pipe at the apex of the tube that constantly fed chilled oil to roof mounted troughs on the pods could sop up the heat before draining out through the bottom of the pod. This might work if a scheme for channeling and removing the heated oil while maintaining the vacuum were devised.
Lots of intricate oil passages, and the large amounts of high temperature, fireproof, dielectric oil that won't evaporate in a vacuum or interact with the seals might kill this idea.
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #522 on: May 10, 2018, 01:04:44 AM »
Oil pipeline: heat sinks....
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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #523 on: May 10, 2018, 02:29:00 AM »
Foster + Partners Reveals Vision for Hyperloop Cargo Network in Dubai



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Working with Virgin Hyperloop One and DP World Cargospeed, Foster + Partners has created this video revealing their vision for a Hyperloop cargo transport network
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #524 on: May 10, 2018, 03:08:51 AM »
Foster + Partners Reveals Vision for Hyperloop Cargo Network in Dubai



Quote
Working with Virgin Hyperloop One and DP World Cargospeed, Foster + Partners has created this video revealing their vision for a Hyperloop cargo transport network

Two observations:

The top of the tube in one case seems to be covered with solar panels.  This is part of Musk's original concept and it serves to cut direct heat gain from exposure from the Sun.  And the racking system could also aid with heat dissipation.

The video suggests a series of pumps along the tube.  That could be the route for quickly and evenly breaking the vacuum in the event of a tube puncture. 

jai mitchell

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #525 on: May 10, 2018, 04:38:03 AM »
That kind of generation over 8 seconds would require something akin to 12 2,000 kg flywheels (or a massive capacitor bank) for energy storage, similar to the kind of energy pulse systems used in fusion energy research.    It would be much more than wholesale electricity for that kind of storage and (nearly instantaneous) power draw.  say, $1.00 per kWh.  That being said, if a capacitor system was used then conceivably, a regenerative braking system could recapture a significant amount of that energy on the other end.
No Wheels - No Brakes  :(
Terry

Magnetic drive, magnetic braking

that much power over 8 seconds, there are 3600 kw-seconds in a kw-hour
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TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #526 on: May 10, 2018, 11:58:39 AM »

Magnetic drive, magnetic braking

that much power over 8 seconds, there are 3600 kw-seconds in a kw-hour


Does magnetic braking generate power? How is levitation maintained?
No snark intended, I have no knowledge of this.
Terry

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #527 on: May 10, 2018, 04:44:08 PM »
Eddy current runs in opposite direction when braking -it could be used to regenerate.

jai mitchell

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #528 on: May 10, 2018, 05:03:37 PM »
yes it has regenerative braking


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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #529 on: May 10, 2018, 05:19:07 PM »
As the vehicle slows it also lowers and runs on its wheels.  Think airplanes.

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #530 on: May 10, 2018, 05:50:06 PM »
Thanks!


Not sure I understand the need for both the coils and the aluminum track, but that's OK. Halbach arrays and the magnetic properties of aluminum & copper are things I've played with. Amazing stuff.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #531 on: May 11, 2018, 04:26:17 PM »
An announcement by Elon and a video of the LA tunnel.

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/11/elon-musk-la-boring-tunnel-video/

Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #532 on: May 11, 2018, 04:38:29 PM »
An announcement by Elon and a video of the LA tunnel.

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/11/elon-musk-la-boring-tunnel-video/

Terry

To be clear, this first tunnel will be a ‘loop, not a hyperloop.

Elon on Instagram: 
Quote
First Boring Company tunnel under LA almost done! Pending final regulatory approvals, we will be offering free rides to the public in a few months.

Super huge thanks to everyone that helped with this project. Strong support from public, elected officials & regulators is critical to success.

As mentioned in prior posts, once fully operational (demo system rides will be free), the system will always give priority to pods for pedestrians & cyclists for less than the cost of a bus ticket.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BinoVT6Acpd/

But a Hyperloop is coming:
Elon Musk: 
Quote
Already started DC to NY route.
Hopefully start LA to SF next year. That will be true @Hyperloop w pressurized pods in near vacuum tunnels & faster than jetliner.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/994760815361245184?s=21
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #533 on: May 16, 2018, 04:35:59 PM »
I'm bringing this over from the Airplane thread.  Sigmetnow posted -

Quote
Because sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere.  From 2017 (and somewhat outdated already):

https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_future_we_re_building_and_boring

"sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere"

Whoa, doggie!

If so, the only issue now is cost.  If tunnels can operate at a near vacuum putting the Hyperloop underground solves multiple problems.

Thermal expansion.  None.

Rupture of tube due to 'bad actor', vehicle crashing into pillar, airplane crashing into elevated tube.

Land acquisition for route.

Opposition for aesthetic reasons.

And Elon has said that riding the slow speed (150 MPH) rapid subway version will cost less than riding the city bus.   Faster and cheaper than flying?  Bye planes.

I'm copying this over to the Hyperloop thread which is where the discussion probably belongs.

Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #534 on: May 23, 2018, 08:54:18 PM »
U.S.:  Denver, Colorado.  A route alongside the mountains, connecting the Denver airport and popular skiing destinations, is being studied.

”The hyperloop will differ from other fixed guideway modes of transportation by offering on-demand solutions and no fixed schedule. Passengers will be able to depart as soon as they arrive. The system will be dynamic with the ability to deploy pods based on up-to-the-second data points that continually optimize departures and arrivals. The hyperloop portal will also integrate seamlessly with existing transportation modes like the RTD A line.”

Rocky Mountain Hyperloop Project Advances To Second Half Of Feasibility Study, Unveils Vision For Denver Intl Airport Portal
https://hyperloop-one.com/rocky-mountain-hyperloop-project-advances-second-half-feasibility-study-unveils-vision-denver-intl-airport-portal
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Sigmetnow

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #535 on: June 04, 2018, 10:11:21 PM »
Clever idea.  And the windows in the tube could be installed at various distances, allowing the effect at slower speeds near stations.

“How slotted ‘zoetrope’ windows could turn both sides of a hyperloop tube transparent, allowing views outside the pod. #BiennaleArchitettura2018 @BjarkeIngels ”
https://twitter.com/jgiegel/status/1003722306147905536
Brief video at the link.

1,200 kph = 745 mph
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #536 on: June 05, 2018, 12:58:21 AM »
External cameras and pod "windows" - LED screens - probably make more sense. 

If the system actually runs at Hyperloop speed then might be best to show a video.  Passing groves of trees or rock outcroppings close to the track would only be an irritating blur.


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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #537 on: June 05, 2018, 08:36:10 AM »
I'm bringing this over from the Airplane thread.  Sigmetnow posted -

Quote
Because sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere.  From 2017 (and somewhat outdated already):

https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_future_we_re_building_and_boring

"sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere"

Whoa, doggie!
That's how fake news gets started Bob. Read and watch the sources provided.
Elon Musk never said that. He said:
Quote
In order to seal against the water table, you've got to typically design a tunnel wall to be good to about five or six atmospheres. So to go to vacuum is only one atmosphere, or near-vacuum.
To clarify; So to go to vacuum is only adding one atmosphere. So 5 or 6 means 6 or 7.

The problem here is reality, you add another atmosphere to something that is already designed with water leakage in mind. That's why they equip underwater tunnels with pumps. The Eurotunnel was very successful regarding this.
http://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr26/f38_nou.html
Quote
Tunnel engineers will tell you that the French half of the tunnel was designed to be watertight while the British half was always intended to leak. This oversimplification reflects the fact that the ground conditions in the British half of the tunnel are much more favourable than those in French territory, particularly near the French coast where the very fractured ground necessitated a lining method involving segments that were bolted temporarily together pending grouting and watertight neoprene gaskets between each lining segment. No such precautions were considered necessary for the British tunnel drives and the drainage design assumes constant groundwater seepage. Water is collected by gravity drainage lines in the tunnel floor and is directed to holding sumps prior to discharge to the surface treatment plant via one of three pumping stations. The original tunnel design called for five pumping stations and five chambers were excavated, but the actual seepage is so much less than predicted that only three stations were equipped.

Now imagine building an air tight tunnel at 6 or 7 atm.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #538 on: June 05, 2018, 08:50:03 AM »

Here's the entire quote from Elon -

Quote
And looking at tunneling technology, it turns out that in order to make a tunnel, you have to -- In order to seal against the water table, you've got to typically design a tunnel wall to be good to about five or six atmospheres. So to go to vacuum is only one atmosphere, or near-vacuum. So actually, it sort of turns out that automatically, if you build a tunnel that is good enough to resist the water table, it is automatically capable of holding vacuum.

Might it be that your comment is an example of how false news gets started?

You can check your link for accuracy.  I copied Elon's entire statement from the TED Talk transcript.  You copied only part.


eta: In my comment which got your knickers all in a twist I copied over Sig's paraphrasing of Elon's comment.  Neither of us quoted nor indicated that we quoted Elon.

Sleepy

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #539 on: June 05, 2018, 09:00:20 AM »
Bullshit. Done editing your post yet? It's pretty obvious that you only copied Sig's comment earlier. Quoting all of the transcript doesn't change the reality here.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #540 on: June 05, 2018, 09:09:41 AM »
Yes, I am done editing.  I added some information in hopes that it would help you understand that what you were apparently taking as an Elon quote was, in fact, a paraphrasing of Elon's statement.

Sig's paraphrasing is an accurate shortening of Elon's statement.  By making a tunnel watertight you automatically create conditions that allow for a vacuum or near vacuum.

You apparently looked up the source but failed to read what Elon said.  Then you went off to start your false news or whatever it should be called.

Sleepy

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #541 on: June 05, 2018, 09:15:47 AM »
Yes, I am done editing.  I added some information in hopes that it would help you understand that what you were apparently taking as an Elon quote was, in fact, a paraphrasing of Elon's statement.

Sig's paraphrasing is an accurate shortening of Elon's statement.  By making a tunnel watertight you automatically create conditions that allow for a vacuum or near vacuum.

You apparently looked up the source but failed to read what Elon said.  Then you went off to start your false news or whatever it should be called.
Check above. Sig never quoted Elon in the Aviation thread, you did. I read Sig's post there, also watched the video and read the transcript. Period.
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oren

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #542 on: June 05, 2018, 11:56:06 AM »
Maybe it's Elon himself that is "rounding corners" here. The way I understand it, many tunnels are not made truly watertight, ergo his statement is an intentional simplification and can be misleading.

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #543 on: June 05, 2018, 12:16:02 PM »
It doesn't really matter to me who's rounding the corners, oren. There's at least one Italian company that provides tunnel vacuum seals.
http://www.imper.it/public/stampati_tecnici/Gallerie_RubberFuse_EN_web.pdf
Quote
This is currently the most advanced and most efficient system for proofing tunnels and underground structures. It combines the ability to partition the surfaces and allows for repair operations with the injection of water-reactive resins. Welds and the entire partitioned sector can be test.
This is carried out by creating a vacuum inside the sections using a special VACUUM pump. A positive test means the welds and the entire section tested are sound. This is achieved in just one operation which can be repeated just before waterproofing works, after positioning the reinforcing bars, after casting the foundation slab and after the structure is complete.
The system’s sealing element is a dual-layer PVC-P or TPO membrane with structured contact surfaces to facilitate the vacuum effect and the slip of the injected resins. The two layers are welded together to create sections with dimensions of approximately 100 m 2.
Again, as this is a system, the sealing element will be integrated with the primary and secondary elements needed to ensure the effectiveness of the chosen solution (protection and compensation layers, injection pipettes, pipes, shunt boxes etc.).

Advanced but no magic there. Pricetag?

Edit; adding image.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #544 on: June 05, 2018, 04:31:53 PM »
Here is Sigmetnow's full comment from whence the Elon paraphrase originated.

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Re: Aviation
« Reply #158 on: May 16, 2018, 04:42:08 AM »
LikeQuote
SpaceX COO Gwynne Shotwell’s TED talk is up.

BFR flights half way around the world in less than an hour, for less than a business class airline ticket.  Because the BFR can make many of those trips a day, whereas an airliner can only make one.
Also discussed:  “Elon time.”  :D  The SpaceX internet satellite constellation, and addressing the problem of space debris.

https://www.ted.com/talks/gwynne_shotwell_spacex_s_plan_to_fly_you_across_the_globe_in_30_minutes

Elon Musk tweeted a footnote:
“Boring Company Hyperloop will take you from city center under ground & ocean to spaceport in 10 to 15 mins”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/996691566851801088

Because sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere.  From 2017 (and somewhat outdated already):
https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_future_we_re_building_and_boring


I bolded the critical part so that you can find the paraphrase.

I quoted Sig, I did not quote Elon.  I did not quote Elon in the Aviation thread or in this thread.  You claim to have read the transcript of the TED Talk and yet you still claim I quoted Elon? 

You made that up in your head and then you got on your high horse and took another run at me.

I have no idea why you have decided to turn conversations into attacks but that's on you. 

Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #545 on: June 05, 2018, 04:38:46 PM »
Maybe it's Elon himself that is "rounding corners" here. The way I understand it, many tunnels are not made truly watertight, ergo his statement is an intentional simplification and can be misleading.

Do you really think Elon has not worked through making tunnels watertight and has an affordable solution in hand?

I'm amazed at how many people think that from their cubical or easy chair they've identified a fatal flaw that a team of very highly educated engineers has missed.

It's possible Boring Company has missed something obvious but the odds, I would think, are extremely low.

oren

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #546 on: June 05, 2018, 06:27:35 PM »
Elon is a genius marketer and engineer but not a magician. My common sense tells me a vacuum-proof tunnel is more difficult than a regular one. Beyond that I make no claim to any actual knowledge on the subject, buf I do note with interest that Elon is currently talking about building a 'Loop in L.A., specifically rather than a Hyperloop, so I'd say there must be some cost diffetences and other considerations involved, even when one is Elon and armed with a team of engineers.

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #547 on: June 05, 2018, 06:43:36 PM »
Elon is a genius marketer and engineer but not a magician. My common sense tells me a vacuum-proof tunnel is more difficult than a regular one. Beyond that I make no claim to any actual knowledge on the subject, buf I do note with interest that Elon is currently talking about building a 'Loop in L.A., specifically rather than a Hyperloop, so I'd say there must be some cost diffetences and other considerations involved, even when one is Elon and armed with a team of engineers.

Elon has said (tweeted?) that the ‘Loop is for short, intra-city transportation, whereas the hyperloop is for longer trips, e.g. New York to Washington DC, or San Francisco to Los Angeles.  Also, to expect rollout of ‘Loop technology in tunnels first, but transition those same tunnels to hyperloop when and where it is appropriate.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #548 on: June 05, 2018, 07:33:16 PM »
Elon produces products people want and that makes him a genius marketer?

OK, I'm happy with that. 

Elon is a genius engineer? 

I don't know about that.  But what I do see him doing is taking fresh looks at how things are being done and asking if there's a better way.

Obviously Elon should benefit from experience building tunnels.  A short run, lower speed "Loop" system should give him and his team that experience without the risk of starting a full Hyperloop system right from the starting gate.

One would expect the team has some ideas about how to create a non-leaking tunnel that could be used to create a vacuum.  Building some Loop systems will let them either solve the leak problem or find that they can't solve it.  At the minimum our cities should get some really fast point to point subway systems which should help reduce congestion.

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Re: The Hyperloop
« Reply #549 on: June 05, 2018, 07:37:52 PM »
Thanks Sig for the info. Bob - I fully agree with all you wrote.