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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1300 on: July 24, 2020, 09:57:04 PM »
Tesla to install 800 MWh Megapack batteries for NV’s Gigawatt 1 initiative
July 24, 2020
Quote
Tesla Energy, together with tech infrastructure firm Switch and asset management firm Capital Dynamics, is involved in a massive sustainable energy project that’s poised to become one of the largest solar and battery installations in the world. The initiative, dubbed as the “Gigawatt 1” project, is expected to generate 555MW of solar power and create 800MWh of battery storage for Nevada.

The project’s announcement was related on sustainable energy outlet PVTech on Thursday. The Gigawatt 1 initiative will be comprised of three key solar and battery installations. Work has already begun on facilities at Clark and Storey County. And according to the firms involved in the project, the Storey County installation will be “the largest behind-the-meter solar project in the world” with its 127MW/240MWh size.

The batteries that would be utilized for the Gigawatt 1 project will be Tesla’s flagship energy product, the Megapack. The Megapack is Tesla’s largest energy storage unit, and it’s specifically designed for grid use. During the product’s announcement last year, Tesla noted that the large battery units feature a 60% increase in energy density over the Powerpack and it boasts up to 3 MWh of storage per pack.

What’s particularly impressive about the Megapack is that it is designed specifically for quick installations. It also comes with an AC interface and DC connectivity for solar grids, making the massive battery unit into a “plug and play” solution. “Using Megapack, Tesla can deploy an emissions-free 250 MW, 1 GWh power plant in less than three months on a three-acre footprint – four times faster than a traditional fossil fuel power plant of that size,” Tesla noted during its announcement of the battery. ... 
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-megapack-batteries-800mwh-nevada-project/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1301 on: July 29, 2020, 07:31:04 PM »
California
Tesla, PG&E break ground on 'landmark' energy storage facility 
July 29, 2020
Quote
Tesla Inc. TSLA, +2.31% and PG&Electric Corp. PCG, +1.39% broke ground last week on a lithium-ion battery energy storage system at a PG&E electric substation in the central coast of California, the companies said in a statement that called the facility a "landmark." The system will be designed, constructed, and maintained by both companies, and owned and operated by PG&E, they said.

Construction is expected to continue into early next year, with the goal of having it energized in early 2021 and fully operational in the second quarter of 2021. "Once operational, the Moss Landing substation system will be one of the largest utility-owned, lithium-ion battery energy storage systems in the world," the companies said. Stationary energy-storage systems help smooth out electric-grid peaks and valleys and make the grid more reliable.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla-pge-break-ground-on-landmark-energy-storage-facility-2020-07-29
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Yuha

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1302 on: August 13, 2020, 12:18:53 PM »
Tesla big battery sets new record as testing for Hornsdale expansion enters final stage
Australia, 11 August 2020
Quote
It is now being expanded to a capacity of 150MW/194MWh, and is adding new services, particularly synthetic inertia, that will allow it to replicate more of the services once exclusive to fossil fuel generators in South Australia, and allow the grid to take another important step towards the shift to the state government target of “net 100 per cent renewables.”
[...]
On Tuesday, in the latest series of tests, the Hornsdale battery did a rapid 270MW flip – from charging at 120MW to discharging at 150MW. It appears to have flipped between the two on several different occasions (see graph above) – at least one of which had an immediate impact on the wholesale price of electricity, pushing it down to the peppercorn price of just above $8/MWh.

Those 270MW flips – from the level of discharge to the level of charge – are likely a world record in both speed and extent of the change.
[...]
The new testing on synthetic inertia, or virtual inertia as David Leitch explains in this excellent piece on the work being done already by the Dalrymple North battery, will prove yet another critical grid service and function that can be delivered by inverter-based technologies, and remove another important brick in the wall of the incumbent synchronous generators. The industry, in Australia and overseas, is watching with keen interest.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-sets-new-record-as-testing-for-hornsdale-expansion-enters-final-stage-65376/

That synthetic or virtual inertia is probably the same grid stabilizing service that was achieved using flywheel storage in Scotland as discussed in the Renewable Energy thread recently:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,256.msg272207.html#msg272207

Ken Feldman

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1303 on: September 02, 2020, 07:37:23 PM »
Lithium prices are still low due to oversupply despite the huge increases in battery production in the past few years.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/50-Of-Hard-Rock-Miners-Are-Losing-Money-As-Lithium-Prices-Slump.html

Quote
50% Of Hard-Rock Miners Are Losing Money As Lithium Prices Slump
By MINING.com - Sep 02, 2020

Investment in battery manufacturing plants and electric vehicle factories continues to boom around the world, but for now the market for lithium shows no signs of emerging from its multi-year slump.

Hard rock miners have been hardest hit, with the price of spodumene concentrate (feedstock for lithium hydroxide manufacture) continuing to fall on the back of break-neck expansion in Australia, which quickly became the number one producer of lithium over South American brine producers.

Yuha

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1304 on: September 04, 2020, 08:46:26 PM »
Will this be the first solid state battery in production?

QuantumScape has been developing a solid state battery for a decade in stealth mode and is now going public to raise $700 million.

https://www.quantumscape.com/investors/

Quote
We are actively planning “QS-1”, our first manufacturing facility that will be built in two stages. For our initial 1GWh of production capacity—the equivalent of ten-thousand battery electric vehicles—we plan to order long lead time equipment next year and start production in 2024. For our followon 20GWh expansion—the equivalent of two-hundred thousand battery electric vehicles—we plan to order long lead time equipment upon cell validation from the initial phase of QS-1 and start production for the expansion in 2026.

Briefly, on our financials. We believe that cash from this transaction fully funds the business through start of production, purchases long lead time equipment for our 20GWh expansion and fully funds our R&D pipeline. We expect to generate revenues beginning in 2024, to ramp up to multi-hundred million in revenue in 2026, to achieve multi-billion in revenue in 2027, and to double from 2027 levels in 2028. In 2028, with an expected just over 90GWh of capacity—the equivalent of 900,000 battery electric vehicles—and greater than 6 billion dollars in revenue, our capacity and sales would still represent less than 1% of current global annual vehicle demand, and less than 10% of annual sales for any top-3 automotive OEM.
https://www.quantumscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/QS-KCAC-Conference-Call-Script.pdf

Volkswagen has invested about $300 million into QuantumScape.
https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/volkswagen-increases-stake-in-quantumscape-6136

More details in the investor presentation:
https://www.quantumscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/QuantumScape-Investor-Presentation-Sept2020.pdf

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1305 on: September 17, 2020, 08:41:08 PM »
Former Tesla CTO’s battery recycling startup secures funding from Amazon
Quote
“(My vision is a) world where all of the transportation is done by electric vehicles and we have batteries powering a sustainable world. And all of those batteries are able to be recycled and remanufactured many, many times so that we can have a nearly closed-loop,” Straubel said.

This same concept stands just as true in the consumer electronics sector, according to the former Tesla CTO. Straubel remarked that while batteries are bound to degrade with repeated use, the underlying elements that comprise them remain sealed from the environment. This meant that the batteries’ materials, most of which are very valuable, could be broken down and repurposed once more. If this is accomplished, the former Tesla executive believes that mining would not be as necessary anymore.

“There are a phenomenal amount of cell phones in the world that currently are being discarded as trash or thrown into a landfill. It’s a massive, untapped resource. If we can recover 98 or 99% of those materials and reuse them, we don’t need very much new material to keep that whole process running… Even though the battery is internally degraded, all of the same materials are still in there — all of the same atoms of lithium, nickel, and cobalt. You can still harness all of those same materials, but they need to be reprocessed and brought back to a state where they could be used again and built into a new battery,” Straubel remarked.

Reports have indicated that Panasonic initially started a trial run with Redwood to reclaim more than 400 pounds of scrap from Giga Nevada, and the results were so successful that the Japanese firm raised its contract to 2 tons not long after.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-jb-straubel-redwood-materials-gets-amazon-funding/amp/
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1306 on: September 28, 2020, 11:44:09 AM »
I must admit I did think that Tesla Battery day would warrant an honourable mention here.

They are talking about 3TWh of batteries by 2030 and a target beyond that.

In their battery day they discussed reducing the footprint of the factory by 90% and increasing the output by 7 times.  That sounds like 70 times as many batteries delivered for the same area.

They use raw materials, reduce the water required drastically and can recycle all the waste water they use in production.

They mentioned that the amount of recyclable materials in the batteries was so high that once the world EV fleet was transitioned, battery production would be mostly (can't remember, 90%+) from recycled batteries from the existing fleet.  Meaning mining carbon costs are locked in and don't increase as they do today.

Tesla also presented multiple "blends" of batteries for differing uses.  Including lower, less intense, use and very high intensity use.

Nothing was totally world shaking in its own right, but put together, should Tesla succeed, the entire world of battery production will be turned on its head in 3 years.

I thought that was worth a mention.

Let alone materials, mining, cobalt free batteries, Lithium from the US for the entire fleet.

There were so many announcements, analysts are still reviewing the livestream to understand just how big the impact is.

Tesla also talked about 3TWh by 2030, but had a price against 20TWh.  To put that into context, 3TWh would produce about 2/3 of the worlds EV requirement at current ~90m vehicle load.  Granted Tesla won't use all these batteries for EV's, but it still puts it into the right frame.  That is one company producing enough batteries to replace 2/3 of the world vehicle production every year.

That has to be pretty momentous.

Any bets on whether they make it or not?  Or whether they exceed their target or timeline?
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1307 on: September 29, 2020, 07:41:17 PM »
Quote
Any bets on whether they make it or not?  Or whether they exceed their target or timeline?
I do not think Tesla will reach its goals on time or to the extent proposed .
It does not matter. even half of the proposed  3TWh is a significant market share.
Tesla is only one player in a rapidly developing technology.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1308 on: September 29, 2020, 08:02:08 PM »
Quote
Any bets on whether they make it or not?  Or whether they exceed their target or timeline?
I do not think Tesla will reach its goals on time or to the extent proposed .
It does not matter. even half of the proposed  3TWh is a significant market share.
Tesla is only one player in a rapidly developing technology.
and the "pour encourager les autres" effect?
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crandles

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1309 on: September 29, 2020, 09:23:15 PM »

Tesla also talked about 3TWh by 2030, but had a price against 20TWh. 

Any bets on whether they make it or not?  Or whether they exceed their target or timeline?

Please correct me if I am wrong: I thought 20TWh per year was estimated worldwide demand for complete electrification of transport, possibly rising to 30TWh. The 3TWh per year figure being what they were proposing/aiming to make from 1 factory. Probably want at least 1 factory per continent same as for cars? Elon time makes 2023 for 3TWh/year optimistic but even if they miss it by a year or two but then soon have factories in US, China and Berlin then you have to wonder if they can get to a monopoly situation.

 > "pour encourager les autres" effect?
If Musk succeeds, say only a year or 2 longer than suggested 3 years and most of the improvements largely achieved, I can't see others being able to compete. In the meantime I think it will stifle investments by others that will just be hoping these aims turn out to be impossible mirages.  That isn't the usual result with Musk, late maybe but eventual success is more like the usual result. Would you invest large amounts of money to compete against Musk?


If they were to get to an effective monopoly situation, would greedy shareholders suddenly change company aims from aiding sustainable transition to making profits?

swoozle

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1310 on: September 30, 2020, 04:29:25 AM »
So Tesla may be able to manufacture 10% of the worldwide demand. 90% of a market still seems like a worthwhile target for other battery makers.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1311 on: September 30, 2020, 06:17:44 AM »
Yip
But
Wake up call
Go hard or go home
Tesla is not a car company
It is a leading technology company
To compete you must keep up
That goes for batteries cars and energy
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NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1312 on: September 30, 2020, 11:12:07 AM »
Please correct me if I am wrong: I thought 20TWh per year was estimated worldwide demand for complete electrification of transport, possibly rising to 30TWh. The 3TWh per year figure being what they were proposing/aiming to make from 1 factory.

Yes they had priced 20TWh, to replace worldwide annual demand with EV's.  But my take was the 3TWh was the expected output of all Tesla factories, not just one, by 2030.

If you look at the presentation again, we are told they can reduce the footprint of the factory by 90% AND increase output 7 times.  70 times as many batteries from the same size of factory.  Or it seemed that way.  Perhaps they were saying that reducing the size of the machines to 1/10th would increase the output 7 times for the same size of factory.  But it did not seem that way.  The density of the charging structure, treating it like a bottling factory, reducing speed  humps by removing the tags on the anode and cathode; not to mention dry cell manufacture which removes the drying process.  All sounds a lot more like revolution rather than evolution.

I'm not sure how Tesla calculated that 20TWh.  As far as I can see if 100m vehicles all had 100kwh batteries, that would take 10TWh  (please tell me I didn't get the decimal point in the wrong place).  So 20TWh would have to have some serious assumptions for semi's, trucks and grid scale power.

3TWh of batteries will produce around 40m LR variants.  Also there will be a smaller model and I would expect the smaller model to be a larger part of Tesla sales.  So, assuming the smaller model has a smaller battery than the current SR+ versions, then it will do tens of millions more vehicles.

True, Cybertruck may have a 200KWh battery and there is the Semi.  But it seems to leave enough space for some serous expansion of grid scale power, even at a 20m vehicle target.  Every year expansion of grid scale power at that.

I wouldn't say  "pour encourager les autres" was the right analogy. More "Root hog or die".
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1313 on: September 30, 2020, 03:12:34 PM »
Reflex Research (@ReflexFunds) 9/22/20, 9:00 PM
If the timeline wasn't clear:
The Pilot line is in production now & they expect it to take a year to ramp to design capacity of 10GWh (many upgrades & challenges on the way).
They aim to build capacity of 200GWh by 2022 & 3,000 GWh by 2030 (enough for 55 million SR+ Model 3s).

https://twitter.com/reflexfunds/status/1308571791749677056
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crandles

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1314 on: September 30, 2020, 03:47:45 PM »
Haven't watched it again but you are probably right.

Seem to recall current US facility at 0.15TWh. 7* output would be 1TWh from 1 factory and 3 factories to get up to 3TWh. So 90% space saved would presumably be used for something else.

crandles

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1315 on: September 30, 2020, 04:16:41 PM »
There is a transcript at https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/tesla-2020-battery-day-transcript-september-22

Quote
Elon Musk: (02:09:05)
Definitely. Yeah. So we’re able to, from a volume standpoint, actually get what, in a smaller form factor than Giga Nevada, we’re able to get many times the cell output. So you can see basically we can get a terawatt hour in less space than it took to make a gigawatt hour, 150 gigawatt hours. So this is pretty profound. I would actually not have thought this was possible several years ago, that we could actually get to a terawatt scale in less space than what we currently envisioned for doing 150 gigawatt hours.

Drew Baglino: (02:09:48)
Yes. Simpler accelerates terawatt scale. And that’s what we need to do to accelerate our mission. And as Elon said, we’re going to try to even improve on this as we push towards our goals, which are…

Elon Musk: (02:10:02)
Yeah. So this is just talking about Tesla internal cell production. As I tweeted out earlier, we will continue to use our cell suppliers, Panasonic and LG and CATL. And so this is a hundred gigawatt hours supplemental to what we buy from suppliers. And yeah, essentially, this does reduce our weighted average cost of a sale, but it allows us to make a lot more cars and a lot more stationary storage. And then long-term, we’re expecting to make on the order of a 3000 gigawatt hours or three terawatt hours per year. I think we’ve got a good chance of achieving this actually before 2030, but I’m highly confident that we could do it by 2030.

A little later

Quote
Drew Baglino: (02:34:17)
All right. So stacking it up. We’re not just talking about cost or range. We’ve got to look at all the facets. So range increase, we’re unlocking up to 54% increase in range for our vehicles and energy density for our energy products. 56% reduction in dollars per kilowatt hour at the battery pack level, and a 69% reduction in investment per gigawatt hour, which is the true enabler when we talk back about how do we achieve this scale problem here.

..
Elon Musk: (02:35:03)
I mean, 0.420%, of course. So what this enables us to do is achieve a new trajectory in the reduction of cell cost. And now to be clear, it will take us probably a year to 18 months to start realizing these advantages and to fully realize the advantages probably it’s about three years or thereabouts.

So is it 2030 or is it 3 years or maybe 2030 = three years or thereabouts in Elon time  ;) :P

NeilT

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1316 on: September 30, 2020, 05:02:38 PM »
Sounds like 2 years, at the outside, to 200GWh and another eight years to expand that to 3000GWh.

Somewhere along the line, Tesla's current battery suppliers will need to find another client.  Or Tesla will have to start producing about 50 million cars/trucks/semi's and expand grid scale battery battery exponentially to consume its own batteries as well as others.

It is not surprising Auto analysts got it wrong when they didn't hear that Tesla had a 1m mile battery, 20,000 cycles, with 400wh/kg, charging in 15 minutes; shipping yesterday.

The actual story is more important than that.
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Yuha

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1317 on: October 01, 2020, 06:20:43 PM »
Experts react to Tesla Battery Day: Highlights, hype and honking horns
28 Sep 2020
https://www.energy-storage.news/blogs/experts-react-tesla-battery-day-highlights-hype-and-honking-horns

Quote
“One very significant information was the claim that Tesla alone will produce 3,000GWh (or 3TWh) of batteries by 2030,” Johan Soderbom, thematic leader for energy storage at EIT InnoEnergy said.

“This is more or less the same number that today is predicted for the entire global battery industry.”

Experts react to Tesla Battery Day: The key technology takeaways
30 Sep 2020
https://www.energy-storage.news/blogs/experts-react-to-tesla-battery-day-the-key-technology-takeaways

Quote
“What I really liked about this Battery Day, being a battery scientist, is how they had this hands-on approach of solving actual problems,” Dr Kai-Philipp Kairies, CEO of ACCURE, a battery intelligence data analytics platform provider, says.

[...]

“It’s all plausible: these five or six fields in which they want to improve their batteries in terms of form factor, in terms of adding silicon to the anode, in terms of dry-coating and such. These are all technologies that have been around for a couple of years and so I do see a very high probability that they will eventually get all the pieces together.

“It might take a year or two longer than anticipated but generally from a scientific point of view, it all makes sense - but implementing it of course is difficult, especially in mass production. But if you have the right people and enough money to even go through maybe two or three trials that don’t work from the start, but you can just iterate until it works, I think it’s very feasible what they’ve planned.”

Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1318 on: October 01, 2020, 07:44:43 PM »
Here’s the slide from the Battery Day presentation:

“The Plan
100GWh in 2022
3 TWh by 2030”

I guess it depends on how quickly the future Tesla terafactories come on line.
I wonder if Tesla plans a lithium processing facility near the Piedmont Lithium mine in North Carolina.  We know Musk has mentioned a future vehicle factory in the U.S. east coast....
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vox_mundi

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1319 on: October 02, 2020, 06:47:31 PM »
Physicists Build Circuit that Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene
https://phys.org/news/2020-10-physicists-circuit-limitless-power-graphene.html
https://news.uark.edu/articles/54830/physicists-build-circuit-that-generates-clean-limitless-power-from-graphene



A team of University of Arkansas physicists has successfully developed a circuit capable of capturing graphene's thermal motion and converting it into an electrical current.

"An energy-harvesting circuit based on graphene could be incorporated into a chip to provide clean, limitless, low-voltage power for small devices or sensors," said Paul Thibado, professor of physics and lead researcher in the discovery.

The findings, published in the journal Physical Review E, are proof of a theory the physicists developed at the U of A three years ago that freestanding graphene—a single layer of carbon atoms—ripples and buckles in a way that holds promise for energy harvesting.

The idea of harvesting energy from graphene is controversial because it refutes physicist Richard Feynman's well-known assertion that the thermal motion of atoms, known as Brownian motion, cannot do work. Thibado's team found that at room temperature the thermal motion of graphene does in fact induce an alternating current (AC) in a circuit, an achievement thought to be impossible.

In the 1950s, physicist Léon Brillouin published a landmark paper refuting the idea that adding a single diode, a one-way electrical gate, to a circuit is the solution to harvesting energy from Brownian motion. Knowing this, Thibado's group built their circuit with two diodes for converting AC into a direct current (DC). With the diodes in opposition allowing the current to flow both ways, they provide separate paths through the circuit, producing a pulsing DC current that performs work on a load resistor.



Additionally, they discovered that their design increased the amount of power delivered. "We also found that the on-off, switch-like behavior of the diodes actually amplifies the power delivered, rather than reducing it, as previously thought," said Thibado. "The rate of change in resistance provided by the diodes adds an extra factor to the power." ...  "In proving this power enhancement, we drew from the emergent field of stochastic thermodynamics and extended the nearly century-old, celebrated theory of Nyquist," said coauthor Pradeep Kumar, associate professor of physics and coauthor.

The team's next objective is to determine if the DC current can be stored in a capacitor for later use, a goal that requires miniaturizing the circuit and patterning it on a silicon wafer, or chip. If millions of these tiny circuits could be built on a 1-millimeter by 1-millimeter chip, they could serve as a low-power battery replacement.

P. M. Thibado, et.al, Fluctuation-induced current from freestanding graphene, Physical Review E, (2020)
https://journals.aps.org/pre/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevE.102.042101
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
« Reply #1320 on: October 19, 2020, 09:13:13 PM »
Tesla installs Canada’s Biggest Battery Energy Storage System
October 17, 2020
Quote
Tesla has a reputation for installing large-scale battery energy storage systems (BESS) worldwide to help with the transition to sustainable energy. Its most recent project is in the Canadian province of Alberta, where Tesla has installed the country’s largest BESS with the help of TD Asset Management.

The project consists of “up to 60 MW of Tesla Megapack Batteries, providing energy balancing and grid frequency regulation services that support Alberta’s growth in sustainable energy,” a press release from TD Asset Management said.

The project started in September 2020, with TD providing its initial investment to bring the first 20 MW battery storage project to the site in Alberta. It is set to be operational by December 2020. It will ultimately be managed by the TD Greystone Infrastructure Fund’s power investment platform, known as WCSB Power Holdings LP, who will construct and operate the final two 20 MW Megapacks.

Ultimately, the goal of most BESS projects is to alleviate the stress on the grid, which is usually powered by less-sustainable sources of power. According to the Canadian Energy Regulator, 91% of electricity is produced from fossil fuels in Alberta. “Approximately 43% from coal and 49% from natural gas. The remaining 8% is produced from renewables, such as wind, hydro, and biomass,” the analysis said.

In times of high energy consumption, the grid can have too much stress upon it and can cause homes or businesses to experience power outages. When this occurs, a backup is needed to keep the lights on. Usually, BESS projects are where the bottleneck is solved. ...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-canada-biggest-battery-energy-storage-system/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.