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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2019, 05:47:45 PM »
Let's close all industrial (large scale) pig farms. Close them on the grounds of morality.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2019, 05:32:20 PM »
The nitrogen budget fixing emergency law is going through the motions. It should be or already has passed the Tweede Kamer (Second Room). Those are our directly elected representatives. The current ruling coalition has a majority there.

They do not have one in the Eerste Kamer (First chamber, based on votes by provincial colleges so they are indirectly elected. Their job is to check laws on general principles). So they are negotiating over extra votes there.

*

In a measure not aimed at climate change but maybe helpful:

Quote
Het kabinet komt met een verbod op het recreatief gebruik van lachgas. Uit onderzoek is gebleken dat het aantal ernstige gezondheidsincidenten toeneemt en dat mensen "veel overlast door zwerfvuil" ervaren als gevolg van rondslingerende lachgaspatronen.

...

Volgens Blokhuis is het dan ook de bedoeling dat de eigenlijke aanbieders van lachgas, zoals groothandels, detailhandels, horeca en gasproducenten, zo min mogelijk geraakt worden door het besluit. Daarom zullen er gesprekken met deze aanbieders gevoerd worden.

So finally the recreational use of laughing gas or nitrous oxide is banned again.

It used to be banned but then there was some EU law that unbanned stuff that did not have strict medical uses. The N2O is sold in metal cannisters for whipped cream.

The main reasons to act are more related health problems and the nuisance. They quote the pollution problem (which is bad, discarded aluminium (?) cannisters plus 1 kg of the shit equals 298 kg of CO2 so please just smoke weed).

Also they want to regulate it in a way that does not hurt wholesale or retail etc. So not ure if it is going to work at all.

PS: These assholes also drive shortly after. One nearly wiped me out but then skidded onto the big road and nearly went into the buildings on the other side (it was summer).
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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2019, 05:48:47 PM »
I think I was wrong on the harmful effects in an earlier post. Apologies for my error kassy.
"just smoke weed"
Good advise :)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Rob Dekker

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2019, 04:15:10 AM »
2030 was already the end date for the gas field. This has now been pulled forward to mid 2022.

The field will not be dismantled so we can use it if needed in a very cold winter in the 2020s.

At least we acknowledged that we cannot use this resource for much longer then 2030 for a long time. On paper we were committed but nothing much happened but increased earthquake damage forced the politicians hand...then again russian nat gas should be coming soon and that could have factored in but it is not something they talk about.

Russian gas comes with strings attached.
Ask Ukraine how it went to cut these strings.

Austria is another example of a nation that got hooked on Russian gas, especially under FPÖ rule (2017-2019) :
https://www.worldoil.com/news/2019/3/7/gazprom-s-natural-gas-supplies-to-austria-increase-33-in-2019

Austria can't cut these strings any more.  They are hooked on Russian gas until Austria starts to rely on their OWN (renewable) energy resources.

Ask Neven when that will happen.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2019, 07:49:04 AM »
I'm sorry guys. I'm a Dutch, but living abroad, so I'm not very familiar with Dutch policy and politics. I am an engineer, and as such I'm really curious how the Netherlands plans to implement the pledge to the Paris agreement.

If you look at the world map, the Netherlands is joining the rest of the EU in the lead to reduce CO2 emissions by 40%.



Other countries like China and the US have insufficient pledges, and there are even countries like Russia, Turkey and Iran that did not even bother to pledge anything, so the EU is clearly in the lead here.

But even with that, how is the Netherlands going to reduce CO2 emissions by 40% ?

Clearly closing some pig farms is not going to do it, and importing Russian gas is not helping either.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2019, 01:55:14 PM »
I will be reporting when they figure it out.

https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/klimaatverandering/klimaatbeleid

It seems that the Urgenda appeal is already done and the government lost that so at the end of next year we have to be 25% below the 1990 emissions. I think we were only going to end up a bit short (something like 23%).

They are possibly closing some extra older coal or gas based energy plants.

I am curious how soon the EU can come up with an effective collective strategy...we will see.
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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2019, 04:50:17 PM »
Biomass is pushed massively as a 'solution' and is counted as zero emissions. Those coal plants have to keep burning biomass (our government helping the big polluters with our money and policies to stay afloat). The idea is to cut foreign trees, turn them into pellets, ship them to The Netherlands and burn them to heat water into steam.

Re: EU/NL. I don't believe in pledges and commitments anymore until I see some real action. 4% per year reduction is nowhere on the horizon and is much too weak anyway imo.

Rob, I don't know what your engineering field is but maybe you have a better view on what the necessary adjustments to our dykes have to be, our protection from the seas, in a hypothetical situation of 2 meter SLR by 2100 and much more severe and frequent storms.
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   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Rob Dekker

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2019, 10:36:28 AM »
Thank you Kassy and Nanning.

I understand that the Netherlands does not have many "renewable" options.
There is no altitude, so no hydro power.
There is no geo-thermal hot spot, so no geo-thermal power.
The Netherlands latitude is high, and the sky often cloudy, so solar power is not that popular either, even though I think it would complement wind very nicely.

Tidal and wave energy are a joke, so the only native (non-fossil) energy sources remaining are wind and nuclear.

I understand that the Dutch don't like nuclear too much, so there is only wind, I guess ?

You are not doing bad there :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_Netherlands

But the rate of increase from 14% to 16% renewables from 2020 to 2023 is dreadfully slow. At that rate, you will be getting to the target 40% reduction in about 60 years.

Biomass is pushed massively as a 'solution' and is counted as zero emissions. Those coal plants have to keep burning biomass (our government helping the big polluters with our money and policies to stay afloat). The idea is to cut foreign trees, turn them into pellets, ship them to The Netherlands and burn them to heat water into steam.

I thought that planting trees and growing them would be a much more effective way of reducing carbon emissions than chopping them down, transporting them over long distances, and then burning them.

But that's just my opinion.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2019, 11:08:07 AM »
Yeah that biomass law must be revised (on the EU level, it is a EU law).

The emergency law against nitrogen pollution has been passed.
One of the more concrete measures will be altered feedstock which contain less nitrogen (or as another article stated it will be feedstock with less excess protein).

That measure if succesful could be used elsewhere.

There will also be a better form of registration of the actual pollution.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/meerderheid-voor-spoedwet-stikstof-in-eerste-kamer~b87271a0/


Most of the rest is watered down:
Zo zal er geen sprake zijn van een ‘generieke krimp’ van de veestapel, worden boeren niet gedwongen te stoppen en worden de drempelwaarden voor stikstof regionaal geregeld.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/kabinet-en-boerenorganisaties-sluiten-akkoord-over-stikstofmaatregelen~b50e85c6/

No generic shrinking of the total lifestock, no forced closures and the treshholds will be handled at a regional level.

In Noord Brabant they still want to get rid of a whole lot of farms , not sure what they want to do in the eastern intensive zone.

Basically the politicians once again chose short term gains over actual solutions.

We should examine the whole chain again and then future proof it.

No subsidies for factory farming.
Subsidies for ecological farming. Grow the food for the animals locally, eat them locally.
Possibly a system to work out how much soil gets restored over time and pay the farmers for that.

The current system is not really fun farming (lots of stress about debts) nor is it sustainable.

Maybe we need to visit them and talk about the issue. Is this sustainable for your lifetime? The kids? Grandkids?

A group of 12 farmers who borrowed to enlarge and or modernize their farms rather recently so in the time that the nitrogen issue was bound to surface as a problem is suing the Rabobank for not doing their due diligence. The banks have an obligation to not give out bad or unsustainable loans so they figure that Rabobank should not have lent them the money to modernize.

It would be good if they won that because that would make the Rabobank much more critical about these type of loans and they are the big lender to the farmers. The BO in RaBo stands for Boerenleenbank.

No link for the last bit since that was a short article in one of our newspapers.

PS: As to the dykes that came up earlier this year in another thread and we have quite a bit of margin. Can´t recall which thread.

If actual SLR from climate change overshoots the 2 meter mark the next question is how much more meters are coming over the next century after that and since the rise could accelerate after that building bigger dykes might not be an option. Yes we could build higher dykes but the salt water intrudes in land while in the same time frame we lose most meltwater inputs into the big rivers so they will mostly dry which means a loss of freshwater pressure.

We will move into Germany and then we can sell diving trips to the former Red Light district.

The whole choice is keeping this world in a holocene range or we go straight for the dumbassic as A-team coined it.

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2019, 11:11:19 AM »
Rob, I don't know what your engineering field is but maybe you have a better view on what the necessary adjustments to our dykes have to be, our protection from the seas, in a hypothetical situation of 2 meter SLR by 2100 and much more severe and frequent storms.

I'm sorry Nanning. I'm an Electrical Engineer. Mostly IC design.
Not much use for assessing Dutch dykes.
But you have excellent engineers who can do that, and you have the monetary means to address these issues.

So I'm not that concerned about Holland and SLR specifically.

More concerned about global SLR and global climate change, and long term energy security for the planet (including long term energy security for the Netherlands).
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NeilT

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2019, 02:39:15 PM »
Over a decade ago I read that NL was planning for both sea level rise and management of inland water flow from the East and how to pass it through the country and out to sea.

I didn't follow it up but I expect it has continued.
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pietkuip

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2019, 03:03:43 PM »
I didn't follow it up but I expect it has continued.

Yes, it is continuing, there was an article about this in Politico this week:
https://www.politico.eu/article/when-will-the-netherlands-disappear-climate-change/

Awareness is growing, but there is also denial of the fundamental problem that 410 ppm means many meters of sea level rise.

kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2019, 02:37:13 PM »
The appeal i wrote about in post 55 was actually today.

English link

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-netherlands/dutch-court-says-government-must-cut-greenhouse-gases-faster-idUSKBN1YO12A?rpc=401&

Basically similar to what i wrote above.
The 2030 target is 49% below the baseline.
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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2019, 04:42:56 PM »
Thank you kassy.

From the link:
"AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Dutch High Court upheld on Friday a ruling ordering the government to cut greenhouse gas emissions faster than planned and to ensure they are at least 25% below 1990 levels by the end of 2020.

The court said the government had not done enough to protect its citizens from the dangerous effects of climate change, which can “threaten their lives and wellbeing”.

Emissions in the Netherlands were 15% lower than in 1990 last year, and are expected to be reduced by around 23% in 2020, the government’s environmental advisory body PBL said last month. "


I wonder about their accounting methods. The stated numbers are hard to believe because energy use has gone up in an accelerating fashion for decades and renewables (without creative accounting) are not an important part of the whole Netherlands energy situation.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2019, 08:16:31 PM »
Thank you kassy.

From the link:
"AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Dutch High Court upheld on Friday a ruling ordering the government to cut greenhouse gas emissions faster than planned and to ensure they are at least 25% below 1990 levels by the end of 2020.

The court said the government had not done enough to protect its citizens from the dangerous effects of climate change, which can “threaten their lives and wellbeing”.

Emissions in the Netherlands were 15% lower than in 1990 last year, and are expected to be reduced by around 23% in 2020, the government’s environmental advisory body PBL said last month. "

I wonder about their accounting methods. The stated numbers are hard to believe because energy use has gone up in an accelerating fashion for decades and renewables (without creative accounting) are not an important part of the whole Netherlands energy situation.
So I went into the Netherlands Statistics Bureau and got it to tabulate 1990 & 2018 energy data (in Peta Joules ?) https://opendata.cbs.nl/statline/#/CBS/en/dataset/83140eng/table?ts=1576859247811

I still can't figure how they get to 15% less CO2 emissions than 1990 in 2018 unless renewables have gone zooming up, because
- in 2018 less than 10% of domestic energy consumption came from renewables
- a good deal less than coal that has declined by almost nothing,
- and domestic total energy consumption has risen, though slowly.

But who am I to question how the EU / Netherlands massage adjust the data?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2019, 08:56:02 AM »
Thanks gerontocrat. Good overview of fossil fuel emissions in the Netherlands, and it is clear that fossil fuel burning did not reduce much (at all) since 1990.

However, that CBS overview does not include various non-CO2 GHG emissions.
This report presents a more complete overview :
https://www.rivm.nl/bibliotheek/rapporten/2019-0020.pdf

In the graph below, you can see that most gain since 1990 was caused by reduction of non-CO2 GHG emission reductions, such as N2O, methane and F-gases. It may even be 15%.

It is unclear how the Netherlands can reduce GHG emissions by any meaningful (like the 40% pledge) way beyond this without seriously moving away from fossil fuels and towards renewable energy.
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NeilT

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2019, 02:58:30 PM »
I read, a while back, that power to the UK, from the FR interconnect, was designated as CO2 free.  But reality is that it sometimes comes from NL and BE Coal peaker plants through their interconnect lines to France.

Hard to work out how they calculate it.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2019, 05:10:06 PM »
I had a look around the CBS site (our Central Bureau of Statistics) and i found this:

Quote
In 2018 bedroeg de uitstoot van broeikasgassen in Nederland 189,3 miljard CO2-equivalenten. Dit is 2 procent lager dan in 2017 en 15 procent lager dan in 1990. In 2018 was de Nederlandse economie bijna 80 procent groter dan in 1990. De bevolking nam met 15 procent toe.
....
Dat meldt het CBS op basis van nieuwe emissiecijfers die door RIVM/Emissieregistratie vastgesteld zijn.

In 2018 stootte de industrie 30 miljardCO2-equivalenten minder uit dan in 1990. De sectoren gebouwde omgeving (stoken van aardgas voor verwarming) en landbouw realiseerden allebei een reductie van 6 miljard CO2-equivalenten. Bij de elektriciteitsbedrijven en in de sector mobiliteit (binnenlands verkeer en vervoer) was er een toename van 6 miljard en 3 miljard CO2-equivalenten. Alle vijf sectoren zijn omvangrijker geworden.

In 2018 is al een reductie van 30 miljard CO2-equivalenten bereikt. Slechts 16 procent van deze reductie komt door een kleinere CO2-uitstoot. De andere 84 procent komt voor de helft door een steeds kleinere methaanuitstoot door afvalstortplaatsen, voor een kwart door het uitbannen van fluorhoudende gassen (eind jaren negentig), en voor een kwart door een kleinere lachgasuitstoot bij de salpeterzuurproductie (in 2008). Hierdoor is het aandeel van CO2 in de industriële broeikasgasuitstoot toegenomen van 63 procent in 1990 naar 87 procent in 2018.

https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2019/37/lagere-broeikasgasuitstoot

Translation

2018 emissions are 189,3 billion CO2-equivalents.
This is 2 percent lower then 2017 and 15 percent lower then in 1990.
In 2018 the dutch economy was 80 percent bigger then 1990. Population increased with 15 percent.
....
Reported by CBS based on emission numbers produced by RIVM/Emissieregistratie.
(so the numbers are calculated by the RIVM which is the Rijks Institute voor Volksgezondheid en Milieu or the Government Institute for Public Health and Environment. Emission registration is just a subgroup of them, K)

In 2018 industry emitted 30 billion CO2-equivalents less then in 1990.
The sectors build environment (or natural gas used for heating) en agriculture both realized a 6 billion reduction in CO2eq.
For electricty and mobility (traffic and transport) there was a gain of respectively 6 and 3 billion CO2eq. All 5 sectors grew.

Now here come the tricks (and it gave me at least 1 aha moment)

In 2018 a reduction of 30 billion CO2eq was reached.

Only 16 percent of this reduction is actual CO2-reduction.

The other 84 percent reduction is:

Half is reduction of methane emissions by garbage dumps
A quart is the banning of CFK gasses (at the end of the nineties)
A quart by lower NO2 emissions in the production of nitric acid (in 2008).

The percentage of actual CO2 in industrial emissions has isen from 63 percent in 1990 to 87 percent in 2018.

So that was the trick, of course this 25% free reductions from the Montreal protocol are in the numbers of every country.

This also proves in hindsight how amazing the effect of that protocol was. Even though it fooled us into thinking or governments were actual rational humans....  ::)


PS: NeilT lets get rid of the peaker plants that does wonders for the calculation.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2019, 05:14:52 PM »
RIVM/Emissieregistratie has a website with maps and other stuff:
http://www.emissieregistratie.nl/erpubliek/erpub/default.nl.aspx?submodule=kaarten

CBA to look at it now but looking at the maps should give a broad idea.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2019, 08:15:51 PM »
Is the court demanding real reductions, or will it accept the same distorted data for their 25% reduction from the 1990's?
Terry

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2019, 08:22:56 PM »
No problem with that kassy, but in order to stop drawing on them we need to track where the power ends up and make them account for burning it.

Only then will everyone be held accountable correctly. At which point they can be made to stop doing it.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2019, 09:53:36 PM »
Before the court made the judgement...

Quote
The Dutch government has set a target of 6,000 MW of onshore wind power by 2020 and 4,450 MW of offshore wind power by 2023. This will contribute towards the Dutch target of 14% renewable energy use out of total energy use by 2020 and 16% by 2023.
Wind power in the Netherlands - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Wind_power_in_the_Netherlands

Lots of MW but not much as %, which when you look at the map looks a bit pathetic. (https://globalwindatlas.info/)

Solar power is also increasing
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_Netherlands
Solar power in the Netherlands has an installed capacity of around 4,300 megawatt (MW) of photovoltaics as of the end of 2018. Around 1,397 MW of new capacity was installed during 2018, the second highest figure in Europe for that year.

Quote
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/04/netherlands-to-reach-27-gw-of-solar-by-2030/
Netherlands to reach 27 GW of solar by 2030
The Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency expects the nation’s solar generation capacity to have increased by another 5 GW by the end of next year, from around 4.4 GW at the end of 2018. By the end of 2023, installed PV capacity is predicted to reach approximately 15 GW.

But I am surprised they have not gone for wind power in a much bigger way. A vast shallow inland sea just asking for it. Maybe because Germany already sometimes has wind power generation greater than demand?
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2019, 04:31:23 PM »
https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/duurzame-energie/windenergie-op-zee

Do check map on the link. You see that our ´vast inland sea´ is not that big. We also call it the IJssellake.  :)
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gerontocrat

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2019, 06:27:18 PM »
https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/duurzame-energie/windenergie-op-zee

Do check map on the link. You see that our ´vast inland sea´ is not that big. We also call it the IJssellake.  :)
But surely big enough, and beyond it the North Sea is pretty shallow (and sea level rise might make it much bigger - unless loads of wind power for even bigger pumps?)
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2020, 04:39:10 PM »
Also so many pig farmers signed into the stopping subsidy program that they ran out of subsidy.
The ministry refuses to give numbers but 1 company doing consulancy for farmers have filed 425 applications for the prgram to date.

The total amount of money was 180 million euros. Maybe we should expand that for a quick gain (because we need houses more then ag exports).

A Rabobank research bureau estimates 7-10% of ´pig rights´ to be taken out of the market.
Historically this is the first ever reform which actually reduces the amount of farm animals...
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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2020, 06:49:38 AM »
I had this saved and wanted to post it just for our Netherlandic readers because it's in Netherlandic.

It is about the vulnerability of our infrastructure, about the vulnerability to collapse from our national coordinator for anti-terrorism and safety (NCTV, https://english.nctv.nl/):
(apologies for this off-topic interesting post)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2020, 10:09:39 AM »
Quote
Nederland maakt van alle lidstaten van de Europese Unie het minst gebruik van duurzame elektriciteit, zo blijkt vrijdag uit cijfers van Eurostat. 7,4 procent van de Nederlandse energie kwam in 2018 van hernieuwbare bronnen, terwijl dat percentage dit jaar 14 zou moeten zijn.

https://www.nu.nl/binnenland/6026230/nederland-gebruikt-minste-duurzame-elektriciteit-van-alle-eu-landen.html

In 2018 the Netherlands was last of all EU countries in the amount of renewable energy used at 7,4%. We should be at 14% at the end of this year. Lets see if we make that.

The Renewable energy in the EU in 2018 shows share of renewable energy in the EU up to 18.0%:
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/10335438/8-23012020-AP-EN.pdf/292cf2e5-8870-4525-7ad7-188864ba0c29
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rboyd

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2020, 12:24:15 AM »
With the Groningen field closing in 2022, and production already down by nearly half, would be in the interests of the Dutch to move to renewables as fast as possible. The alternative is a high degree of dependency upon LNG and Gazprom.

Output at Europe’s giant Groningen gas field plunges in Dec, dents Dutch stocks

https://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/output-at-europes-giant-groningen-gas-field-plunges-in-dec-dents-dutch-stocks/