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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1100 on: January 07, 2020, 02:28:51 AM »
Blumenthal intervoews Keen and Hudson: the fix is in

"there’s a simple relationship between an increase in level of private debt and a fall in the amount of money going to workers."

"billionaires come from is getting too much private debt, through private debt bubble that shouldn’t have been allowed to happen in the first "

"The billionaires’ assets of the 1% are the debts of the 99%"

"If it keeps the debt on the books, the economy is going to shrink and shrink and shrink for the 99% and the only people who will be growing is the 1% of the creditors."

"The good thing is that by canceling the debts you cancel out this huge amount of billionaires’ power to take over the government, to replace it and ultimately to become the government."

"the emergence of the Holder Doctrine from Eric Holder, former Attorney General, who said that banks are strategic to the economy and, therefore, you couldn’t prosecute them"

"They strangled Greece, they choked it out. As a result, they rewarded the financiers with a bailout, with more hundreds of billions."

"the Democratic Party is Wall Street. The Democratic Party is basically the neo-liberal Wall Street party "


'You talked about the current generation having to pay off the depths of their predecessors. They’re not going to pay them off, these debts cannot be paid off. They can go bankrupt, they can starve, they can die sooner, but they cannot pay off the debts. Mathematically, there’s no way of these exponential growth in debts being paid off. In the end, every economy reaches a point where the debts cannot be paid and it is a choice: either it can wipe out the debts and grow again, or it can leave the debts in place and let it strangle the economy. That’s what the Democratic Party and the Republican Party stand for today."

"by wiping out the debts you wipe out this excess wealth."

" is Greece America’s future? Is Latin America, America’s future? "

"Greenspan’s helicopter drops the money over Wall Street, not Main Street."

" the need to keep the central banks happy by allowing them to print in what I call, interest rate apartheid. They simply give money to their friends and everyone else gets choked out."

"the least productive capitalist in society would be Warren Buffet because he does absolutely nothing. He just collects money from the Fed and he buys strategic positions in insurance and banks."

"he’s a classic case of somebody who knew that mainstream economic theory was nonsense. Efficient markets hypothesis . . . and said, “if enough people . . . if that’s what you believe, I’m going to become a billionaire.” And he was right, okay? "

"He knows that it can’t go on forever. And if you know it can’t go on forever, what do you do? You play for the short run, and that’s the real problem of finance capital. "

https://michael-hudson.com/2020/01/front-running/

sidd

gerontocrat

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1101 on: January 18, 2020, 01:05:42 AM »
The International Monetary Fund (IMF,) that bunch of radical card-carrying commie loonies, are suggesting that things are going wrong with the Capitalism as is operating today.

https://www.taxjustice.net/2020/01/17/imf-shrink-the-financial-sector-to-reduce-inequality/
The IMF has just published a new Staff Discussion Note entitled “Finance and Inequality,” by Martin Čihák and Ratna Sahay.

Quote
The shortest summary of its conclusions is: too much finance makes countries more unequal. And in the words of the IMF’s new Managing Director Kristalina Georgieva, introducing the study, rising inequality:

"is reminiscent of the early part of the 20th century
— when the twin forces of technology and integration led to the first Gilded Age,
the Roaring Twenties, and, ultimately, financial disaster.

This is the latest in a now-hefty body of academic research supporting the finance curse thesis: the apparently paradoxical idea that “too much finance can make you poorer.” In other words, countries need to develop financial sectors, but only up to an optimal point, and if finance grows beyond this point it tends to harm the economy and society that hosts it. Many western economies passed this point long ago.

We’ll start with a line fairly deep in the report’s text, which is fairly explosive. In a section on policy implications, it recommends that:

regulatory policies have a role to play in reining in excessive growth of the financial sector.

That’s our emphasis, in bold. Here’s the IMF saying that countries should not allow their financial sectors to grow too big. This recommendation is related to inequality, but the IMF has not only come around to the idea that inequality hurts growth: it has published several reports demonstrating the finance curse thesis: that too much finance hurts overall economic growth (and delivers a payload of other economic and societal damage.) As we’ve said before: shrink finance, for prosperity.[/size]

Link to complete report at https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/Staff-Discussion-Notes/Issues/2020/01/16/Finance-and-Inequality-45129

Note re image.
Y axis - the GINI index is a commonly used index of income inequality in a population.
If I remember correctly
Index = 0 - everybody has the same income,
Index = 1 - 1 person has all the income.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 09:16:32 AM by gerontocrat »
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nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1102 on: January 18, 2020, 06:34:56 AM »
Thanks for that gerontocrat. I don't seem to have access to your C: drive ;)

In my understanding/observation, economic growth is always resulting in higher GINI indices (without government intervention).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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gerontocrat

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1103 on: January 18, 2020, 09:17:58 AM »
Thanks for that gerontocrat. I don't seem to have access to your C: drive ;)

In my understanding/observation, economic growth is always resulting in higher GINI indices (without government intervention).
Whoops - you can download report from......

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/Staff-Discussion-Notes/Issues/2020/01/16/Finance-and-Inequality-45129

The GINI index does not capture the grotesque increase in remuneration of the 0.1 %, displayed in its most exaggerated form in the U.S. of A..

Quote

Average pay of CEOs at the top 350 firms in 2018 was $17.2 million—or $14.0 million using a more conservative measure. (Stock options make up a big part of CEO pay packages, and the conservative measure values the options when granted, versus when cashed in, or “realized.”) CEO compensation is very high relative to typical worker compensation (by a ratio of 278-to-1 or 221-to-1). In contrast, the CEO-to-typical-worker compensation ratio (options realized) was 20-to-1 in 1965 and 58-to-1 in 1989. CEOs are even making a lot more—about five times as much—as other earners in the top 0.1%.

From 1978 to 2018, CEO compensation grew by 1,007.5% (940.3% under the options-realized measure), far outstripping S&P stock market growth (706.7%) and the wage growth of very high earners (339.2%). In contrast, wages for the typical worker grew by just 11.9%.


https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/

The UK is trying to catch up...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/04/uk-ceos-make-more-in-first-three-days-of-2019-than-workers-annual-salary
UK CEOs make more in first three days of 2019 than worker's annual salary

‘Sickening’ Fat Cat Friday figures show the disparity is growing

Quote
The bosses of the UK’s biggest companies are facing renewed scrutiny over excessive pay deals, after new figures showed top executives earned the average worker’s annual salary within the first three working days of 2019.

Dubbed “Fat Cat Friday”, 4 January is the date by which the average CEO of a FTSE 100 company pockets the equivalent take-home pay of a typical full-time worker in the UK.

Calculations by the High Pay Centre thinktank and the professional HR body the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD) show top executives are earning 133 times more than the average worker, at a rate of around £1,020 per hour or £3.9m annually. That’s up 11% compared to a year earlier.

It means CEOs working average 12-hour days would only have to clock in for 29 hours in 2019 to earn the median £29,574 of British staff.

as is continental Europe

https://www.consultancy.eu/news/2118/average-top-100-ceo-in-europe-earns-salary-bonus-of-58-million
Average top 100 CEO in Europe earns salary & bonus of €5.8 million
Quote
Chief Executive Officers (CEO) of large European companies are seeing continued growth in their compensation packages – an average CEO bags more than €5 million per year in salary and bonuses. Growing pressure from the public, politicians and shareholders is however changing the remuneration landscape for executives.

In a new report by Willis Towers Watson, the firm’s HR consultants analysed the CEO pay of the largest stock-listed companies in Western and Eastern Europe – companies listed on the STOXX All Europe 100 Index.

The authors found that, on average, a CEO of a STOXX All Europe 100 company is paid €5.8 million in total direct compensation. Of this amount, the base salary represents around €1.5 million, with the remainder gained through bonus payout and more long term grant incentives. .
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 09:41:30 AM by gerontocrat »
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1104 on: January 18, 2020, 11:05:12 AM »
^^
Nice photo. It is very fitting that they're standing on bitumen. It looks like a funeral. No life in sight.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

johnm33

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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1106 on: January 18, 2020, 09:53:38 PM »
Pyll explodes the efficient markets hypothesis: an ax cut againth the neoclassical root

"The Grossman-Stiglitz paradox shows that if the market were effective - if prices fully reflect available information - no player would have the incentive to obtain the information on which prices are expected to build. If, on the other hand, no actor is informed, it would be worthwhile for an actor to obtain information. Consequently, market prices cannot incorporate all relevant information about the goods exchanged in the market. "

https://larspsyll.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/grossman-stiglitz-paradoxen/

The original is in swedish ; i used google translate. Perhaps one of our swedish speakers could weight in as to accuracy of the translation ?

sidd

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1107 on: January 19, 2020, 05:16:36 AM »
Do you think it is possible to change the system? It is engrained in everything economic, financial/banks, real estate, investment, government, neo-liberalist dogma, growth, social/career succes hierarchy, inequality, powerstructure, accumulation.
CAN it change? Or is there no choice but to ride it out and see where it gets us?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1108 on: January 19, 2020, 11:52:38 AM »
If you don't want the financial sector to grow too large, you need to deconcentrate wealth by capping it on  the individual level. There's no other way.
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kassy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1109 on: January 19, 2020, 01:12:15 PM »
And that needs to be a global effort. See Moneyland.

So if i had to bet i would say this is more likely to happen as a consequence of climate catastrophy than as a measure to prevent this.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1110 on: January 19, 2020, 02:58:12 PM »
If you don't want the financial sector to grow too large, you need to deconcentrate wealth by capping it on  the individual level. There's no other way.
There's no other way? Once again, Cuba doesn't need any sort of hamfisted bureaucratic easily loopholed "cap", they just use a different economic system.... It's that easy mate.
And another reminder, because Cuba's economic system doesn't revolve around profits, they have managed to produce the most impressive climate action plan of any state in the world. They did that while under decades of crippling sanctions from a global superpower.

I'm honestly curious how you think that every nation governing almost 8 billion people are going to implement a worldwide wealth tax. Don't you think it's easier just to change our economic system?

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1111 on: January 19, 2020, 05:35:28 PM »
Yes Neven, you're right. But. Is anyone in power listening? Who do they listen to?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

oren

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1112 on: January 19, 2020, 08:53:34 PM »
I doubt there is anyone with enough power over the system to make a real difference even if they wanted to, which would be a miracle in itself.
I am highly pessimistic, and expect a civilizational collapse before any meaningful systemic change.

gerontocrat

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1113 on: January 19, 2020, 10:23:49 PM »
To me the link attached is a "must read" to help understand the form of Capitalism currently running the USA and UK (and elsewhere?)

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/10/new-age-ayn-rand-conquered-trump-white-house-silicon-valley

So the men and women in suits are gathering in Davos, ready to save the planet. Mind you, they knew the way it was going 5,10, 20 years ago. So why do they take it seriously now? Self-interest.

I am always stunned when I find out a bit more how the "philosophy" of Ayn Rand has taken such deep root amongst our elite, including the new elite in Silicon Valley and elsewhere in the Technology world.

Quote
Rand called her philosophy - now taught to A-level students alongside Hobbes and Burke - Objectivism the belief that

“man exists for his own sake, that the pursuit of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose, that he must not sacrifice himself to others, nor sacrifice others to himself”.

Republicans and British Conservatives started giving each other copies of Atlas Shrugged in the 80s was that Rand seemed to grant intellectual heft to the prevailing ethos of the time. Her insistence on the “morality of rational self-interest” and “the virtue of selfishness” sounded like an upmarket version of the slogan, derived from Oliver Stone’s Wall Street, that defined the era: greed is good. Rand was Gordon Gekko with A-levels.

Trump is notoriously no reader of books: he has only ever spoken about liking three works of fiction. But, inevitably, one of them was Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead." “It relates to business, beauty, life and inner emotions. That book relates to ... everything,” he said last year.

So why does Trump claim to be inspired by her? The answer, surely, is that Rand lionises the alpha male capitalist entrepreneur, the man of action who towers over the little people and the pettifogging bureaucrats – and gets things done. As Jennifer Burns puts it: “For a long time, she has been beloved by disruptors, entrepreneurs, venture capitalists, people who see themselves as shaping the future, taking risky bets, moving out in front of everyone else, relying only on their own instincts, intuition and knowledge, and going against the grain.”

So Rand, dead 35 years, lives again, her hand guiding the rulers of our age in both Washington and San Francisco. Hers is an ideology that denounces altruism, elevates individualism into a faith and gives a spurious moral licence to raw selfishness. That it is having a moment now is no shock. Such an ideology will find a ready audience for as long as there are human beings who feel the rush of greed and the lure of unchecked power, longing to succumb to both without guilt. Which is to say: for ever.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1114 on: January 19, 2020, 11:52:38 PM »
I'm honestly curious how you think that every nation governing almost 8 billion people are going to implement a worldwide wealth tax. Don't you think it's easier just to change our economic system?

You are proposing a solution, I'm proposing a pre-condition for any solution to have a chance of working.

And I fully agree with your solution. For years I have read about neoclassical economics, and even wrote a piece about it for Planet 3.0, back in 2011. I was convinced, as you are, that the root cause of all problems was economic growth and its arbitrary definition, based on neoclassical economics that basically ignores limits.

Since then, my thinking has evolved, as there's always another turtle under every turtle. What is all that economic growth actually for? Where does it all go to? 'Concentrated wealth' is my answer. The reason the economic system is as it is, is that it's the most efficient and fastest way to grow and concentrate wealth. If you don't first put the brakes on that dynamic, there is no way you are going to be able to change the economic system.

In other words, you can only start changing the economic system, if you first take away the incentive behind it. And you take away the incentive by putting a cap on how much a person can own (so that wealth cannot concentrate endlessly).

It's a fairly simple concept that even people with low IQs can grasp intuitively. Much simpler, I think, than proposing a new economic system and get a critical mass to support it.
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TerryM

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1115 on: January 20, 2020, 04:18:30 AM »
If you don't want the financial sector to grow too large, you need to deconcentrate wealth by capping it on  the individual level. There's no other way.
There's no other way? Once again, Cuba doesn't need any sort of hamfisted bureaucratic easily loopholed "cap", they just use a different economic system.... It's that easy mate.
And another reminder, because Cuba's economic system doesn't revolve around profits, they have managed to produce the most impressive climate action plan of any state in the world. They did that while under decades of crippling sanctions from a global superpower.

I'm honestly curious how you think that every nation governing almost 8 billion people are going to implement a worldwide wealth tax. Don't you think it's easier just to change our economic system?
The Cuban Government is proof that The Right is wrong.  :)
Terry

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1116 on: January 20, 2020, 07:25:13 AM »
Yes, profits (i.e. inequality from trade&commerce) is the basic driver/incentive together with social hierarchy status based on material wealth.

Whereever trade and profits came to the non-civilision old tribes, rich people (material accumulation) and inequality emerged. These rich people started to feel supreme over others because of perceived status and became insane. They also thought they were supreme over all of living nature and even made a religion out of it to enshrine that view, resulting in total destruction.

They are the people-in-suits in the background. Because of religion, tradition and culture all civilisation people think this is 'normal' and all are insane because of that.


edit: As observed from living nature, from reality, for example: Mowing the grass is insane; tidiness is insane; marriage is insane. I can go on a long time with this list.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 05:09:36 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1117 on: Today at 02:58:42 AM »
Capitalism not working ? Lie about it !

" today’s reported unemployment rate of 3.5 percent is statistically impossible"

"  While you are as unemployed as one can possibly be, and tragically may never find work again, you are not counted "

https://wallstreetonparade.com/2020/01/heres-how-the-fake-unemployment-number-was-created-to-subdue-anger-against-wall-street/

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/chairman/181469/big-lie-unemployment.aspx

sidd

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1118 on: Today at 07:32:09 AM »
   Two billion and rising: the global trade in live animals in eight charts

  The world’s seas and roads are awash with farm animals, with almost two
  billion pigs, cattle, sheep and chickens trucked or shipped as exports in 2017


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/20/two-billion-and-rising-the-global-trade-in-live-animals-in-eight-charts
  by Tom Levitt

(more information in the article)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

johnm33

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1119 on: Today at 10:05:41 AM »
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts what it says in the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzX5GXc4HhQ&feature=youtu.be 9mins on the long fight against financialisation of politics took me 3 times to get it, if indeed I did.