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Author Topic: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?  (Read 156465 times)

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1200 on: June 20, 2020, 12:50:01 PM »
Quote
and not out of irritation (as I sense it is for some) because of wrongly perceived holier-than-thou posts

There are two possible interpretations of this:
A) nanning really claims to be superior, but is denying that he claims it in this post
B) I (and maybe others) have misinterpreted him

But A) makes no sense. If nanning has claimed to be better than us before, then why would he deny it now? Consistency argues for B). And since I am not a telepath, I must believe him.

Sorry again, nanning. And I look forward to your list...I may say "I can't or won't do most of these, but #17 is something I never thought of and could do".
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1201 on: June 20, 2020, 03:12:50 PM »
If not a PM... then What?  And, How?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

kassy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1202 on: June 20, 2020, 04:58:17 PM »
Well...  ;)
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1203 on: June 20, 2020, 08:31:24 PM »
… Do you think I am voluntarily unemployed? I've had years of frustration and stress about it and finally accepted my predicament. And then you come with this. Bah.
:'(
Your words, nanning:
...
I am poor by choice. I am not in the academic system by choice. I have no honours and degrees by choice. I am not a grown-up by choice. I have made many sacrifices by choice.  I am vulnerable by choice. ...

Above, I wrote:
Quote
If everyone lived like nanning, there would quickly be no food (even for him) because no one would be working the fields, or transporting it, there would be no one in the factories to process it, no fuel for trucks to distribute it to people (or ways for people to get to distant food supplies) and no one making the tools or manufacturing the parts to maintain vehicles to continue to do so. ...

I’m not saying everyone’s purpose in life is to be part of the work force.  You be you. 

I’m saying:
a work force is required (Capitalism or no); 
most workers will live differently than you currently do; 
   and so complaining about that, or suggesting everyone should follow your example for the good of the planet, makes no sense.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

jens

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1204 on: June 20, 2020, 09:50:30 PM »
Depends, what workforce would mean in an alternative system.

In a community-based system everyone would contribute to the community, but with no 'official' worker tags.

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1205 on: June 21, 2020, 03:28:28 PM »
Depends, what workforce would mean in an alternative system.

In a community-based system everyone would contribute to the community, but with no 'official' worker tags.

Yes; a musician or artist can contribute to society.  Perhaps even someone who tends a beautiful yard or flower patch that others enjoy seeing. 
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1206 on: June 22, 2020, 12:22:02 AM »
The rich eat the planet: doi: 10.1038/s41467-020-16941-y

"the world’s top 10% of income earners are responsible for between 25 and 43% of environmental impact. In contrast, the world’s bottom 10% income earners exert only around 3–5% of environmental impact"

"the growth paradigm is hegemonic, i.e. the perception that economic growth solves all kinds of societal problems, that it equals progress, power and welfare and that it can be made practically endless through some form of supposedly green or sustainable growth"

"Long-term and concurrent human and planetary wellbeing will not be achieved in the Anthropocene if affluent overconsumption continues, spurred by economic systems that exploit nature and humans. We find that, to a large extent, the affluent lifestyles of the world’s rich determine and drive global environmental and social impact. Moreover, international trade mechanisms allow the rich world to displace its impact to the global poor. Not only can a sufficient decoupling of environmental and detrimental social impacts from economic growth not be achieved by technological innovation alone, but also the profit-driven mechanism of prevailing economic systems prevents the necessary reduction of impacts and resource utilisation"

Open access. Read all about it.

sidd

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1207 on: June 22, 2020, 06:51:23 AM »
Sig, nowhere in that quote does it say that I am voluntarily unemployed!

I guess that Tom is also unemployed. You probably think that he is worthless for society too?

I am a very competent worker (I have worked for 34 years) and not only with my brain. I would happily work the fields (without using FF and without an assembly line and without a drill sergeant and preferably not 5 days per week in this culture and not with another temporary contract).

I am an experienced teacher in digital techniques, information technology and mathematics to name a few. And I don't need to make much money (!). I am fine by being non-affluent and I don't need to keep increasing my material accumulation (I am not in that insane system). Futhermore, I am very social and respectful to others and can work in teams. I would make a good leader. What's not to like?

I would love to have a job, collegues and satisfaction from being a constructive element. Within months of becoming unemployed and on benefits, I cut all contacts with friends and family and started my research in hermitage. Quite something else than sitting on the sofa and watching TV. I also started experimenting with all kinds of stuff in my life that we call 'normal'. This could benefit others greatly if they would be open to it.
I do my best here to let others see alternatives and give my alien perspective.

Your critique of my unemployment situation flies in the face of advances and uderstanding in the economic inequality thread on this very forum.
It should be clear that I am hit by inequality and not because of my competence or attitude. Was I born to be just a part of this system? I am most certainly not.

This is my last response to sig's wrong ideas about me. It was personal and nasty and I am a bit surprised at the freedom sig's getting here. I don't deserve to be put away on this forum for being unemployed.

Edit: formatting and deleted emotive text
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 06:14:54 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

jens

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1208 on: June 22, 2020, 08:32:54 AM »
I don't deserve to be put away on this forum for being unemployed.

This is fair enough that there is no motivation or even reason to participate in this broken economic system. This frees up time and opportunity to look for alternative solutions, even if they are on a personal level at this time.

blumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1209 on: June 22, 2020, 08:44:55 AM »
I don't deserve to be put away on this forum for being unemployed.

Of course not!

If you don't contribute to the free market capitalist madness, that makes you the sane one.

You know that, Nanning. Don't get yourself confused.

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1210 on: June 22, 2020, 08:52:25 AM »
Thank you jens. I appreciate your broader views and analyses of alternatives.

Without intense tourism and consumerism, a 3 or 4 day workweek should suffice. The freed up time can be used to e.g. develop yourself and for social functions. Life is what you do outside of your work imo. Why do many pensioners keep seeing themself as their former function e.g. I am a doctor, an engineer, a CEO. As if that's all they are; a function. Those work positions are not accomplishments in life but in the capitalist system imo.

Thank you blum :)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1211 on: June 22, 2020, 11:31:54 AM »
nanning used a different spelling of 'Jesus' in some PMs to me. This wrongly irritated me because I falsely assumed that he was being intentionally disrespectful of Christ and Christians. He sent me a PM explaining this and I again apologize.
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kassy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1212 on: June 22, 2020, 12:42:40 PM »
1) Should have discussed this in pm , ask why instead of presuming something.
2) Don´t post the OT stuff. This thread is about systems not about you or whatever some specific poster thinks/does or do not do etc.

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1213 on: June 22, 2020, 12:57:30 PM »
Gotcha, kassy.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1214 on: June 23, 2020, 04:04:56 PM »
Let’s approach the subject of poverty and unemployment from a different perspective:

If everyone lived the same poor, miserable life, regardless of employment status or job type, why would anyone get up and go to work?  What impetus would there be to excel at their job, or to improve their product or business?
How would they provide for their family? 
What if health care were not provided to everyone for free?


Consider this example:   During working years, by living very frugally, “below their means,” most of a person’s earnings can be put into savings;  over time, advancing skills and position increases the savings rate.  As a result, upon retirement they are in a position to buy a house (or etc.) and live, still frugally but comfortably and debt-free, on an income that is not far above poverty level.  And, they can even delay activating their “social safety net,” except for health care (yes, this is my story, and I live in the U.S.; currently in a very poor, rural area).  Adequate savings provide for occasional expenditures like solar panels or an electric riding mower to further reduce my carbon footprint — the flexibility to address AGW concerns today that were not part of the picture when buying the house.  (Actually, that’s not quite true; I knew I wanted to add solar panels and swap my ICE car for an EV [there are no buses or trains out here in the boonies]… “someday.”  I had to wait for the technology to improve, become more widely adopted, and the price lowered.)  I am now in a position of contributing to my adopted, needy community, rather than being a drag on it.  That’s what the potential of personal financial independence can do.

I’m all for the “Star Trek” society where everyone is equal, lives comfortably and there is no hunger…  but “equal” has to be at a higher level than living in squalor, or there will always be discontent, slow progress, and poor health among the masses.

“To boldly go.”
https://twitter.com/ratemyskyperoom/status/1273754951194468352
45 sec: Jonathan Frakes on Gene Roddenberry’s view of the future.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

wili

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1215 on: June 23, 2020, 06:15:59 PM »
So do you think that status and comfort are the only things that motivate any human being ever?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1216 on: June 23, 2020, 09:11:01 PM »
So do you think that status and comfort are the only things that motivate any human being ever?

No.  Did I say that?
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Bruce Steele

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1217 on: June 23, 2020, 10:49:17 PM »
Dear Sig, Your post told me more about your life than the thousands of prior posts combined. I do recall you had ordered your model Y.  If your house is paid off and you still have maintained a sizable savings you are frugal indeed. Solar ,a Tesla Y , and owning a house . Congrats
 I always have kept a burr under my blanket. I pushed the throttle for living on the edge. No regrets except the first wife leaving. Divorce can set one back as can medical bills.
Lloyd’s of London cancelled me even though I paid my bills out of pocket for hospital visits. But I liked the excitement and unpredictability of the ocean. I kept working but after all these years I still work for something near the poverty line. 
 Hard to know what motivates a person , thrills, beautiful women, raising children. In the end if you can retain the respect of your peers and not be too large a burden on others you have been successful . I hope you have good friends and the love of your life to share your time. 
 Money and possessions may work out or not, luck and timing play their part.  There are posters on this forum that I find admirable and whether fortune has favored their bank account is irrelevant to me.
 Even living in squalor isn’t so bad IMO if you can still love and be loved. We did live uncomfortable lives for 80-90 thousand years. Those people might find our values lacking as so much of life on this planet suffers our existence.  That would pain them ,I am sure ,as it pains me.
 I would gladly live penniless and in squalor if it would stop the destruction. It is our comfort and want that keep us digging the hole deeper. And collectively we are not so kind even though we don’t think we are asking too much for ourselves.
 


 

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1218 on: June 24, 2020, 03:33:33 AM »
Hey, Bruce. Thanks.
I realize my example is not typical. ;)  Although a system could be created to, say, earn credits that could be “cashed in” later in life, our current system unwisely encourages debt and immediate consumption, which, especially in the first world, takes real effort to avoid.  The benefit to my saving money for later was that as years went by and the world changed (and economic downturns dashed even my dreams), I could alter my goals, for the better.  (Still holding onto the Model Y reservation;  hoping to get it early next year, assuming my 16-year-old Honda continues to survive!)

I think people who live contentedly with less (without jealously or complaints) are indeed admirable, and can help limit humanity’s burden on the planet.  But the world is not static, and we continue to discover new environmental threats.  If a person is living at minimum, and a radical change in their life is required, that might be nearly impossible for them to do.

The great revolution we need to progress as a species also requires individuals who pull together knowledge and assets in new ways, and who risk everything to “think different” and move the world towards a sustainable future for all.  We need leaders and not-leaders. Our way out of this mess depends on everyone not being the same.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1219 on: June 24, 2020, 10:30:04 AM »
Quote from: Sigmetnow
The great revolution we need to progress as a species also requires individuals who pull together knowledge and assets in new ways, and who risk everything to “think different” and move the world towards a sustainable future for all.

Don't know if you thought about me when you wrote that but I feel addressed :)

Thank you Sig for seeing the need for a great revolution. This revolution is not green BAU imo, especially since the BAU capitalist system stands for inequality and destructive growth.

I think the current meaning of 'progress' must be changed to a system where all humans prosper and happiness is decoupled from material accumulation, which in reality has always been the case. Humans do not become more happy from owning more stuff. That's why this material affluence hierarchy we have in our culture is destructive for humans. Pursuing endless material growth to what end?

Fundamentals of the capitalist system according to me:
Billionaires outdoing others in acquiring ever more wealth is basically the same behaviour as the old aristocratic conquerors outdoing other conquerors in the size of their owned (stolen) land. That game of 'who has the biggest' is what the capitalist system is based on. The frugal, the non-violent and the nature tribes were never meant to be part of this system.

In my opinion, this game system is now mainly driven by already affluent people accumulating wealth and consumeristing. I see every grown-up stepping on the material accumulation ladder and is only looking up. Not everybody starts at the bottom rung because of inheritance and a leg up, these people are at birth already 'successful'. That's insane.

Commerce and advertising/marketing is an important part of this system. Temptations by manipulating, unrelentless repetitive branding, invoking fear and jealousy, lying, distorting and omitting, and especially exploiting the human psyche for all its inbuild weaknesses.


Dear Bruce, that was beautiful to read. I wish that I was so eloquent.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1220 on: June 24, 2020, 12:02:12 PM »
Quote
Dear Bruce, that was beautiful to read. I wish that I was so eloquent.
But you are that eloquent, nanning.
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Bruce Steele

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1221 on: June 24, 2020, 05:11:46 PM »
Nanning , I enjoy the ASIF, I enjoy the international membership and how various posters try to live their lives with the same nagging knowledge I have in the back of my mind , something has gone wrong and it needs fixing.
 I think you are correct about marketers and consumer media exploiting human weaknesses. They consider it a job and our society generally supports their methods. Maybe if everybody wasn’t expecting to be lied to about almost everything we wouldn’t be where we are.
 I am attempting to transcribe a handwritten autobiography written by my great grandfather born 1860 His life was incredibly difficult.  At one point in his book he has a quote “ I don’t know whether man will outlive coal or coal will outlive man ?” I thought that was insight and that maybe we have been seeing the problem for a very long time.  Forcing me to live in another mans shoes for awhile is
not so comfortable . Living  a hundred years ago was plenty difficult, kinda scary.
 He lost three children in a week to diphtheria and his only son came back from WW1 permanently shellshocked . I am descended from the one daughter who made it through .
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 12:31:47 AM by Bruce Steele »

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1222 on: June 26, 2020, 03:58:43 PM »
It feels hard to post in this thread after the previous intense and beautiful post from Bruce. I admire his efforts greatly and value his stories.

Thread topic:  "If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?"
  • start with abolishing inheritance?
  • stop the concept of profit
  • dismantle all armies
  • start living communal, stop with separate houses
This will soften the landing for your children, yourself and all others on the coming apocalypse.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1223 on: June 26, 2020, 06:50:12 PM »
How do the people on this forum define "Capitalism" for the sake of this thread? How long has it existed?
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blumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1224 on: June 26, 2020, 07:02:33 PM »
Pure capitalism is when every branch of society is a participant in a free market.

There is no such society on earth though. Any society draws the line about which branches of society should be market participants differently. Mostly there is a mix of free-market participants and institutions in the public hand.

kassy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1225 on: June 26, 2020, 07:33:03 PM »
Also a lot of free market proponents actually push rigged and thus unfree markets. Fossil fuel subsidies for example.

Capitalist systems are aimed at private profit.

This would be fine if you could do infinite growth but we can´t because we ran out of planet.

We need to move to a system of stewardship.
The practical problem is that the politicians work for big money interests and not the people.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1226 on: June 26, 2020, 07:41:41 PM »
I created this thread back when a flame war erupted in a pro-Capitalism thread.  The general consensus seems to be that capitalism sucks — but it’s the best economic system for most of the world that has been developed, so far... even though it needs to be hybridized with some degree of communal leveling for those who don’t receive its benefits.  So... if you dislike capitalism, what other system do we use (e.g., a Universal Basic Income?), and how do we transition to that new system?
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Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1227 on: June 26, 2020, 10:43:42 PM »
You put a cap on how much capital an individual can own.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1228 on: June 26, 2020, 11:28:10 PM »
What cap do you propose, Neven?
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Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1229 on: June 27, 2020, 01:02:17 AM »
And what should be done with the “excess” they are not allowed to keep?
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Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1230 on: June 27, 2020, 09:02:37 AM »
What cap do you propose, Neven?

I don't know, it's open for discussion. 10 million, 100 million, something that's not easy to reach and high enough so people can still feel filthy rich. It's important that there's inequality to spur creativity and innovation. But that inequality should be fixed and not be able to grow larger. Hence the cap. It doesn't really matter how high it is, as long as it's there.

This would still be capitalism, but the capital would be in many more hands and thus less likely to dominate, monopolize and concentrate to further its own growth.
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Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1231 on: June 27, 2020, 09:07:15 AM »
And what should be done with the “excess” they are not allowed to keep?

This is also open to discussion. It should be used on things that society agrees upon, which IMO opinion should be based on what constitutes a 'good life' that doesn't inflict damage on future generations. Things like UBI, affordable housing, regenerative agriculture, the dismantling of unhealthy, destructive industries...

How to do this, I don't know. Via referenda?
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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1232 on: June 27, 2020, 09:13:19 AM »
Re: what should be done with the “excess” they are not allowed to keep?

give it to the half of the population that are less wealthy

i mean the bottom half of the population by wealth not by income

sidd

jens

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1233 on: June 27, 2020, 10:52:20 AM »

Thread topic:  "If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?"
  • start with abolishing inheritance?
  • stop the concept of profit
  • dismantle all armies
  • start living communal, stop with separate houses

This is the conflict between ideas and real world. It's fun to think about all the things that should or could be different. Then you look around outside and see ... "meh". Well, granted, if people's intelligence level was different, things could be done differently. But unless science creates a surgery, which increases the ability of people to adopt high levels of critical thinking, there isn't really a way out. People are stuck in their preconceptions.

Granted, there are people, who try to build up communities and sustainable living. But they are such a small minority it barely registers on the societal scale. The majority of people will keep living "normal" life no matter what until life forces them to change. For example once economy has collapsed so badly that you can't find a job in the city, so you have to move countryside to grow food to survive.

Of course when the economy practically collapses (and that's not an "if" at this stage any more), the main question is how will people react to it. Whether they come together and try to work out a solution collectively, or they will start a war and fight against each other for resources. This is the choice people will have. But of course looking at the general worldwide rise of extreme political ideologies doesn't leave one hopeful of positive solutions.

johnm33

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1234 on: June 27, 2020, 11:16:06 AM »
Capitalism is when it's possible for individuals within a society to build their own little empires, competing with others doing the same by offering goods or services which people will pay for. This can only exist as a temporary phenomenon because unless a tyrant imposes the rules soon the rich will buy the politicians the legislature and the law, not to mention science, academia, religion and all media. Then they will pursue their monopolies until such time as the inherent stupidity of their cultural/societal choices ossify become brittle and shatter.
Looking back it's clear you cannot have any type of sophisticated society without a means of creating/distributing credit, in my opinion the closest any society came to establishing a fair system was, with all it's faults, the Incan empire.
Our present system where only a priviliged aristocratic elite can create credit has been tried many times and always failed. Often by imposing an ever growing burden of debt on the least priviliged, usually to the point where they have to sell first their daughters then their sons and finally themselves are taken into debt servitude/slavery. [An alternative was arbritary laws/taxes only enforced on the lowest tier with transgressions resulting in periods of 'penal' servitude, i believe it was possible for a London thief to be sentenced to up to twenty one years of indentured service in early plantation 'America' for the simple theft of a hanky and sold off to the highest bid on arrival. Debtors prisons were also used to coerce children into accepting a period of indentured service to free their otherwise 'lost' parent from indefinite detention.] Then the next tier cannot compete with the slaves and they succumb to debt in turn, eventually those societies have too few free men to resist predatory raiders demanding tribute or else, and perhaps look to mercenaries for protection only to find their problems have doubled.
I think the best way to create credit/money would be something like a universal basic income but based on universal equal access to 0% credit at a level similar to minimum wage. It would have to be repaid, so not a handout thus there'd be no restrictions on working or who could live with whom or household size. To pay down the debt a small transaction tax would be levied maybe 2.5% tax for every full year of debt owed, and perhaps a rollover fee [10%] when those thresholds are crossed, this on top of a simple 2.5% tax on all transactions of all economic actors. Maybe impose a negative interest rate [20%?] on mothers debts to recognise their necessary burden. To level the playing field somewhat a simple 2.5% tax on all assets of all economic entities above a certain threshold [house+pension?] for individuals no allowances for 'immortal' non corporeal entities. To prevent the rich buying the parties/legislature/executive/law have all political and legal decisions taken by randomly chosen jurists who are elected by a citizens vote/nominations process similar to elections, and ditch the civil service in favour of commisioned studies by senior student bodies.
So perhaps the first move would be to select and elect local 'jurists' to replace parachuted in politicians.

jens

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1235 on: June 27, 2020, 05:18:47 PM »
The problem with any proposed solutions is that basically you are asking politicians  to pass laws that would hinder them. It's a paradox. Politicians - who by extension are guided by the financial elite - have no motivation to pass laws that would reduce their power. The only reason they would do it would be for good PR, to gain votes in elections to show that "we are doing something for the common good". But leaving an impression is a different thing to reality. Greed will always find a way to capitalize on other people, even if you try to legally restrict it. Corruption and all that.

Which leads me to concluding that as long as greed hasn't been "solved", nothing else can be solved. Other measures are like cosmetics, which don't change fundamentals.

The only long shot of dealing with human behavioral matters is in my view education. But that should be alternative education, not the official one we get at schools, which mold generation after generation into capitalist mindsets and societies.

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1236 on: June 28, 2020, 04:58:03 AM »
I agree with your first two paragraphs jens.


Assumption: Capitalism, commerce is based on profit.

Question: Is 'profit' necessary for a working economy?

i.e. can we create an economy without a profit system?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

blumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1237 on: June 28, 2020, 06:35:46 AM »
Is 'profit' necessary for a working economy?

People oftentimes use 'commerce' and 'capitalism' interchangeably. They are not the same thing though.

So no, profit is not necessary for a working economy.

jens

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1238 on: June 28, 2020, 01:55:56 PM »
Depends on the definition of 'profit'. Basically human economic activity started with bartering. People exchanged things to gain something they didn't have, while giving something in exchange they had in excess. Effectively you could say both sides 'profited', because each got something they needed, but didn't have.

The definition of capitalism "profit" seems to be that you gain something at the expense of the other, instead of everyone gaining in an exchange.

Ideally of course economic activity would be beneficial to everyone involved, and that's why human economic activity started to begin with - to share and make life easier for everyone involved. The problem comes, when there are people, who try to take advantage of you while offering very little in return.

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1239 on: June 29, 2020, 10:06:34 AM »
Assumption: Capitalism is based on inheritance.

Question: Is 'inheritance' necessary for a working economy?

i.e. can we create an economy without an inheritance system?


this would also fit into the "economic inequality" thread
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1240 on: July 06, 2020, 01:55:07 AM »
 ;D
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1241 on: July 06, 2020, 06:36:10 AM »
I think that is off-topic here Sig. That is coloured and biased politics and should go somewhere else.

Reluctantly taking the bait:
8. Capitalism has failed every time it was tried
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

jens

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1242 on: July 06, 2020, 10:49:34 AM »
The issue with communism is that you end up with gangsters at the top of the hierarchy, who torture the rest of the population and eliminate anyone with novel ideas (i.e opposition). And of course communists never cared about the environment either. Soviets literally destroyed the Aral Sea.

Again one has to say it boils down to human psychology. Doesn't matter if we talk about communism, capitalism or anything else - nothing would work out if humans are egocentered and corrupt.

Assumption: Capitalism is based on inheritance.

Question: Is 'inheritance' necessary for a working economy?

i.e. can we create an economy without an inheritance system?


this would also fit into the "economic inequality" thread

I am not sure inheritance factor would change much in terms of people's pursuit of collecting wealth and getting rich at the expense of others. They would still like to live as comfortably as possible, and it wouldn't make any motivational difference to people without offsprings.

However, you can argue that without inheritance the starting points would be more evenly matched, and materialistic success would be based more on meritocracy to put it this way.

And how would all this look like in practice anyway? Say, a family builds a house. Once the parents die, who would live in that house afterwards or who would "own" it?

kassy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1243 on: July 06, 2020, 12:40:46 PM »
The issue with communism is that you end up with gangsters at the top of the hierarchy, who torture the rest of the population and eliminate anyone with novel ideas

Capitalist propaganda bubble talking there?

Look at Washington for example.

We also know that big money gets their stuff done in laws because they lobby.

So we have a system that does not make choices advantageous to all people.

The current capitalist system with its need for continual growth is what is breaking the planet so that is clearly not a valid alternative. Hence the thread title.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

bluice

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1244 on: July 06, 2020, 01:01:42 PM »
You guys are walking into a trap. Anti-capitalist does not equal communist, so no need to defend a corrupt and rotten planned economy.

Surely the alternative to capitalism is something else than communism. We know both systems failed.

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1245 on: July 06, 2020, 03:46:46 PM »
I think that is off-topic here Sig. That is coloured and biased politics and should go somewhere else.

Reluctantly taking the bait:
8. Capitalism has failed every time it was tried

It is a “Not Capitalism” and therefore a suggestion as to a particular not-capitalism which should not be considered.

“Capitalism has failed every time it was tried” is off-topic.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1246 on: July 06, 2020, 09:56:40 PM »
Your comment wasn't on topic either, never mind the fact that nobody here has suggested communism as an alternative to capitalism. Like bluice says: Anti-capitalist does not equal communist.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1247 on: July 07, 2020, 03:50:58 AM »
Your comment wasn't on topic either, never mind the fact that nobody here has suggested communism as an alternative to capitalism. Like bluice says: Anti-capitalist does not equal communist.

**sigh**

I was simply attempting a humorous suggestion that as we look around for alternatives to capitalism (which we all agree needs fixing/replacing), communism is not an acceptable option.  The spirit of the meme is that everyone is pretty much in agreement on that.  I was not arguing with anyone, nor saying communism is the only non-capitalist answer.  ::) 
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1248 on: July 07, 2020, 06:51:24 AM »
Sig, your list for children is making young humans preloaded with anti-communism. It is not balanced and, imo, U.S.A. censorship. Therefore I wrote political. This thread is not for humour and I find your children post insulting for the real communism theory (which has never been tried because first the old rich families must be gone; the old hierarchy. Never happens).

This is not attacking you Sig, just making my criticism clear. Ending my part in this discussion now. Sorry for off-topic.

Now I am going to read the interesting posts about inheritance above. I'll take my time to analyse, think, doubt, look up and hypothesize.
Feel free to join in Sig.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

johnm33

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1249 on: July 07, 2020, 08:13:56 AM »
"The issue with communism capitalism is that you end up with gangsters at the top of the hierarchy, who torture the rest of the population and eliminate anyone with novel ideas who challenges their monopolies"
Or as the Russians under the USSR used to say capitalism is a system where man ruthlessly exploits man, with communism it's the other way round.
Here Charles Hugh Smith wonders if the ponzi scheme known as the 'stock market' can survive a public awakening from the american dream, and if the fed which, with it's cronies, currently charges 40% of gdp for supplying the means of exchange has reached the end of the road. https://www.oftwominds.com/blogjuly20/stock-market-gone7-20.html