Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?  (Read 304084 times)

gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 20628
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5308
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1300 on: September 20, 2020, 08:51:33 PM »
Perhaps the wealthy need a “Minimum Required Distribution” each year of a specific percent of their wealth, which would increase with their age — like the 401(k) in the U.S. does.  But the wealthy’s MRD proceeds can’t be used to further enrich themselves or their family.

Once upon a time the rich paid more taxes than the poor.
But as Warren Buffet said some time ago - "My secretary pays a higher tax rate than I do, Can that be right?".

Tax laws are written by the rich for the rich and passed by a Congress that is full up people who are bought and sold. Is the UK any better? Yes, but we are playing catch-up as fast as possible.

Any system that is corrupt ends up in the same place. And if you think your 401(k) is going to be worth more each year, ho hum. For years the SEC has allowed pension plans to assume real growth beyond reality. Even the actuaries have been compromised.



"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25922
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1160
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1301 on: September 20, 2020, 09:54:57 PM »
Perhaps the wealthy need a “Minimum Required Distribution” each year of a specific percent of their wealth, which would increase with their age — like the 401(k) in the U.S. does.  But the wealthy’s MRD proceeds can’t be used to further enrich themselves or their family.

Once upon a time the rich paid more taxes than the poor.
But as Warren Buffet said some time ago - "My secretary pays a higher tax rate than I do, Can that be right?".

Tax laws are written by the rich for the rich and passed by a Congress that is full up people who are bought and sold. Is the UK any better? Yes, but we are playing catch-up as fast as possible.

Any system that is corrupt ends up in the same place. And if you think your 401(k) is going to be worth more each year, ho hum. For years the SEC has allowed pension plans to assume real growth beyond reality. Even the actuaries have been compromised.

The distribution amount required for a 401(k) MRD (and my imaginary MRD on the wealthy) is not tax-based.  It’s a percent, based on one’s age, of the total amount in the account, period.

The withdrawal is, however, 100% subject to taxes, like regular income —  and fair taxation on that amount is a relevant, but separate, question.

The idea is:  one must continue to draw down the account, by an increasing percentage each year, so that by an actuarially-determined age, the account will be zero.  Such a regulation for all required wealth, once a certain wealth level was achieved, would help prevent the accumulation of massive estates, by requiring that “investments,” as described in the Twitter thread I posted above, are withdrawn and spent on non-personal and non-familial purposes every year.

How exactly the total wealth of a person would be determined is of course another question. ;)

Edit:  quoted gerontocrat’s entire quote.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2020, 10:12:43 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

interstitial

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2900
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 574
  • Likes Given: 96
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1302 on: September 20, 2020, 10:27:43 PM »
I wish they wouldn't be allowed to get so big in the first place. when one player gets too big everyone suffers. Redistributing the wealth after the fact ignores all the damage they do accumulating all that wealth.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2487
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 273
  • Likes Given: 23170
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1303 on: September 21, 2020, 07:09:20 AM »
World's richest 1% cause double CO2 emissions of poorest 50%, says Oxfam
Charity says world’s fast-shrinking carbon budget should be used to improve lot of poorest

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/21/worlds-richest-1-cause-double-co2-emissions-of-poorest-50-says-oxfam
  by Fiona Harvey

 Excerpts: (bolding by me)

The wealthiest 1% of the world’s population were responsible for the emission of more than twice as much carbon dioxide as the poorer half of the world from 1990 to 2015, according to new research.

Carbon dioxide emissions rose by 60% over the 25-year period, but the increase in emissions from the richest 1% was three times greater than the increase in emissions from the poorest half.

The report, compiled by Oxfam and the Stockholm Environment Institute, warned that rampant overconsumption and the rich world’s addiction to high-carbon transport are exhausting the world’s “carbon budget”.

Such a concentration of carbon emissions in the hands of the rich means that despite taking the world to the brink of climate catastrophe, through burning fossil fuels, we have still failed to improve the lives of billions, said Tim Gore, head of policy, advocacy and research at Oxfam International.

The global carbon budget has been squandered to expand the consumption of the already rich, rather than to improve humanity,” he told the Guardian. “A finite amount of carbon can be added to the atmosphere if we want to avoid the worst impacts of the climate crisis. We need to ensure that carbon is used for the best.”


The richest 10% of the global population, comprising about 630 million people, were responsible for about 52% of global emissions over the 25-year period, the study showed.

Globally, the richest 10% are those with incomes above about $35,000 (£27,000) a year, and the richest 1% are people earning more than about $100,000.

..a finite carbon budget of how much carbon dioxide it is safe to produce, which scientists warn will be exhausted within a decade at current rates.

Oxfam argues that continuing to allow the rich world to emit vastly more than those in poverty is unfair. While the world moves towards renewable energy and phases out fossil fuels, any emissions that continue to be necessary during the transition would be better used in trying to improve poor people’s access to basic amenities.

The best possible, morally defensible purpose is for all humanity to live a decent life, but [the carbon budget] has been used up by the already rich, in getting richer,
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2487
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 273
  • Likes Given: 23170
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1304 on: September 21, 2020, 08:03:09 AM »
The "Sin of Wealth". Interesting article Sig.
Good posts by Steve, gerontocrat and interstitial imo.

I am not really knowledgeable about 'magical' Finance (i.e. the rich people's world), but this is strange to me:
"Money is an IOU on goods and services."

I think this is incorrect.
How is trillions of money-printing by central banks in any way an IOU on goods and services? It comes out of thin air.

The speculative 'market' also makes
A house as a good has not the value of the bricks and mortar, but a speculative market-pricing. If it gets more expensive, how is that extra money in any way an IOU on goods and services?

+
I'd say that the sin of wealth is not just *wasting resources on yourself*, but also *withholding capital from society by storing enormous amounts in off-shore accounts*. Dead capital, extracted from the exploited poor and nature.

--

A thought on economic production:
All the construction work going on in large mansions for e.g. the creation of a 'new' garden, a new interior decoration or a billiard room is non-productive work. It is non-production and a waste of labour and materials.
Production would mean building a house for people who have no house.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

blu_ice

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 86
  • Likes Given: 190
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1305 on: September 21, 2020, 01:40:41 PM »
Nanning, an employee is willing to perform work for her/his employer in exchange for money because the employee trusts that money can be exchanged to goods and services later.

That's money being IOU.

House is worth what somebody else is willing to pay for it. That's why a house built on a beautiful beachfront property can be worth gazillions while a similar house in a middle of nowhere wasteland can be financially worthless.

kassy

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8344
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2053
  • Likes Given: 1990
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1306 on: September 21, 2020, 01:51:37 PM »
Quote
Globally, the richest 10% are those with incomes above about $35,000 (£27,000) a year, and the richest 1% are people earning more than about $100,000.

..a finite carbon budget of how much carbon dioxide it is safe to produce, which scientists warn will be exhausted within a decade at current rates.

So that is about 29750 and 85000 euros.

From REaC thread:
Thanks for that, nanning. Many won't believe it.

From an earth perspective (which really should be the main perspective we all view things from), the central function of modern industrial society/economy is to transform the riches and beauties of the earth into toxic waste and trash.

And the global wealthy (which probably includes most posters on this forum) are the juggernauts of that economy.

These numbers combined with the recent bbc survey tell a simple story.

New worldwide Poll on climate change concern and need for action:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54208995

I think we will do capitalism until it really does not work and then we will be surprised at how quick the wheels come off.

On an individual level we basically want to hang on to what we have, also relatively.

And on an international level we have countries competing for which they also need money/growth to but more military stuff.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

jens

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 76
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1307 on: October 08, 2020, 08:25:04 PM »
I think we will do capitalism until it really does not work and then we will be surprised at how quick the wheels come off.

On an individual level we basically want to hang on to what we have, also relatively.

And on an international level we have countries competing for which they also need money/growth to but more military stuff.

Ultimately everything comes down to a simple reason - brain evolution of the primates called humans. Humans by and large simply haven't developed what I would call 'collective intelligence'. There just hasn't been enough evolutionary pressure for this to happen yet. And there is nothing to do about it, since evolution is a slow process over many millenias. Humans are what they are with their limitations, just a species of animals with prehistoric brains.

Somebody might say that humans have the ability to organize collectively and civilization is proof of it. I'd say civilization has been developed despite the limitations of humans, not because of them. If we zoom into civilization, we see endless in-fighting, power struggles and trying to use other people for your own gain.

Civilization has happened for a very practical reason. A human struggles to survive alone in the wild, and needs other people for survival. So it's easier to survive together. However, despite this fact humans have endlessly tried to use others and control others to gain power over others for egocentric reasons. Human brain has been largely evolved to deal with immediate affairs, which affects them directly for livelihood/survival, and not with affairs that are far away.

There has been no "harmonious co-existence" or "big picture". Just an endless struggle between egos. Once such civilization hits trouble, even more so self-made trouble, all these animals called humans could think of is trying to save their own asses.

But never mind. That's just the nature of evolution on a planetary scale. And ultimately the species called homo sapiens hits the wall due to their own limitations in making sense of the world. The rise and fall of humans - it was what it was, would an imaginary historian say about it retrospectively. I'd say good riddance, knowing fully well I'm part of this species as well.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2487
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 273
  • Likes Given: 23170
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1308 on: October 09, 2020, 07:21:11 AM »
Interesting thinking there jens. You are quite definite but I think you are wrong in your thinking because of your civilisation bias (bubble).
In my view, civilisation is not 'developed' but happened because of the rise of supremacy in certain tribes. The rise of insanity.
Please do not mix up "humanity" with civilisation humans. The civilisation culture is insane (supremacy) and that insanity is in the brains of everybody except those who live outside civilisation. (modern) Civilisation has lost all connections to living nature and civilisation humans have damaged psyches. Therefore you cannot find human characteristics representative of humanity at large in civilisation humans.
As a metaphore; you do not study animals in captivity to find out how their species react to stimuli and how their culture works.
You use the term "collective intelligence", but are you able to define what you mean by that?
In the mean time, the non-civilisation tribes go on happy living in living nature, observing the total destruction. Happy that is, until civilisation comes knocking at the door.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

jens

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 76
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1309 on: October 09, 2020, 12:57:58 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts, nanning. I sound quite definitive, but I have to say that's just the way I am as a person and how I express myself - I am very straightforward. But this doesn't mean I can't discuss about things when presented with good arguments.

What do I mean by 'collective intelligence'? By and large I mean taking into account as wide implications as possible with every action you take in your everyday life. Perhaps this sounds like a lot of 'calculating', like being a super-computer taking account millions of variables before taking a decision. But of course this has to happen naturally, pretty much instinctively, to take the best possible decision at any given moment.

What concerns the rise of civilization, I have understood it is largely tied to grain production and thus permanent settlements. Humans in certain regions discovered grains that they can grow and which can offer them comfortable surplus energy. This means - if tribes could do that once stumbling across excess resources, can we really say they were truly harmonious with nature, or instead they had the underlying potential to be corrupt if you give them such opportunity with excess comforts?

In short - tribes are happier in nature, but how well are they conscious of the reasons behind it? Which means tribes can be corrupted if you change the environment, if you aren't conscious enough about reasons of happiness. Animals are also happier in nature than in captivity, but the thing is that they themselves don't know why is that so. They just operate based on natural reactions.

"Rise of supremacy/insanity" as you say doesn't happen just out of nowhere or without reason. I'd say everything that has happened in the history of humans, is part of an evolutionary process in the grand scheme of things.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2487
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 273
  • Likes Given: 23170
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1310 on: October 09, 2020, 06:21:17 PM »
Captive animals lose not only their freedom, but also their habitat and culture.
I think you are wrong in thinking the animals "operate based on natural reactions". Animals have much more intelligence and creativity then that.
All life is a system. It defines sanity. Go out of that system and you have become insane. Thinking that you are above all other animals/lifeforms does that. Do you think that you as a person, are better or more worth than another human?
There's no 'great scheme of things'. Just sane life on Earth trying to survive the destructive insanity from humans and their technology.
About the video: The San tribes. 200000 years of non-agriculture and having food when agraric tribes are starving as mentioned in the video. Alas, the past couple of hundred years of expanding civilisation did them in after 200000 years!. Pushing buttons.

this has been posted before but perhaps forgotten. anyhow, it's impotant for my arguments
(27m06)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

jens

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 76
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1311 on: October 09, 2020, 07:47:04 PM »
My point about the "grand scheme of things" is simple. As we consider humans part of nature, it means everything humans do and have done is also "part of nature". And this includes development of civilization.

Thus human 'insanity' is also part of nature. It's not something that suddenly appeared from space out of nowhere and is completely alien.

In case of disagreement you can offer your explanation, what triggered humans to start with civilization and abandon their "harmonious" tribes. And how did this trigger appear at all? Which criterias and conditions does this trigger need to fulfill to push the button of "let's start with civilization"?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 08:00:44 PM by jens »

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2487
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 273
  • Likes Given: 23170
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1312 on: October 10, 2020, 10:12:14 AM »
Going outside of living natures bounds by one or more tribes (the men, not the women) by feeling supreme over other living nature triggered first insanity and later agriculture (which is certainly a manifestation of supremacy over other lifeforms) which became 'civilisation'. First at isolated places around the world, to later, via wars and colonisation, form one global civilisation.
Watching the San peoples video, at one moment the interviewer tells us that the women of the tribe do the gathering and the men the hunting. When the men return from the hunt feeling grand and powerful, they automatically, culturally get put down by the women. This is extremely important because here is the key for the 200000 years of sanity. The women berate the men in order for them not to get supremacy ideas with their hunting skills.

I wish this makes it more clear to you what I mean. Please ask if some things are not really clear. It is a small change in your brain, but a real 'mental leap' and gives a large change in your world view.

To readers: I'm sorry that this is not obviously about capitalism, but at the core it is because capitalism is essentially the supremacy effect of richer/powerful people over all other people troughout the history of civilisation. The insane groupfantasy of rich people that think they are better and more worth than poor people. Conquest, armies, wars, colonialism, material accumulation. To gain. More more more.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 10:18:33 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 20628
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5308
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1313 on: October 18, 2020, 04:46:14 PM »
Small headline from Bloomberg News today...

The 50 Richest Americans Are Worth as Much as the Poorest 165 Million.

Capitalism gone rogue?

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2487
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 273
  • Likes Given: 23170
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1314 on: October 20, 2020, 06:51:10 AM »
"are worth"...   this is the problem

One of those 50 rich people is thus 'worth' as much as 3300000 poor people. Do you think this is sanity?
(not addressing gerontocrat)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25922
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1160
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1315 on: March 06, 2021, 07:05:53 PM »
A California city gave some residents $500 per month. After a year, the group wound up with more full-time jobs and less depression.
Less than 1% of the money went toward alcohol or tobacco.
Quote
Its critics argued that cash stipends would reduce the incentive for people to find jobs. But the SEED program met its goal of improving the quality of life of 125 residents struggling to make ends meet. To qualify for the pilot, residents had to live in a neighborhood where the median household income was the same as or lower than the city's overall, about $46,000.

A new report from a team of independent researchers found that Stockton's program reduced unemployment among participants during its first year and helped many of them pay off debt. The report studied the effects of the payments from February 2019 through February 2020. SEED participants also reported improvements in their emotional well-being and decreases in anxiety or depression. ...
https://www.businessinsider.com/stockton-basic-income-experiment-success-employment-wellbeing-2021-3
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25922
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1160
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1316 on: March 21, 2021, 12:44:47 PM »
Now, the Stockton program isn’t so much an anomaly, but a prototype. And increasingly, the question won’t be whether programs like these help people, but about how many more people they can help.
 

A San Francisco Experiment Will Give Some Pregnant Women $1,000 a Month. Could Other Cities Be Next?
Quote
The cash payments helped other participants land better paying jobs too—contrary to guaranteed income critics’ fears that people will work less if they get free cash. When the Stockton program started, just 28% of those who would get the cash had full-time employment. One year worth of $500-per month payments later, 40% of SEED recipients were employed full time. Recipients also tended to use the cash payment for necessities such food, utilities and automobile repairs rather than recreation and self-care. Between February 2019 and February 2020, recipients reported using 37% of the funds on food. They used less than 1% of the funds on alcohol and tobacco.
https://time.com/5947417/guaranteed-income-pregnant-women/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Tom_Mazanec

  • Guest
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1317 on: March 22, 2021, 02:21:16 PM »
We Don't Need The Great Reset, We Need The Great Rebalancing
https://www.oftwominds.com/blogmar21/rebalancing3-21.html
Quote
The Great Reset is much in the news--the proposed top-down plan for combating climate change designed by the global elites, who then as now will be jetting around in private aircraft while dictating exactly how the rest of us will reduce our carbon footprints.
My CLIME proposal takes a much different approach: change the way money is created and people are paid to create a new incentive structure that lets people and communities decide how best to reduce energy consumption and waste and address scarcities.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25922
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1160
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1318 on: March 26, 2021, 07:21:25 PM »
City of Oakland, California to give families making under $59,000 a year a $500 check each month
Quote
The initiative is a privately funded program that will give low-income families of color $500 per month, and with no rules on how they spend it.

According to the Oakland Resilient Families program website, the following groups are eligible: "Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC) families (i.e. groups with the greatest wealth disparities per the Oakland Equity Index) with low-incomes and at least 1 child under 18, regardless of documentation status."
...
The program states on its website: "UBI is meant to go to everyone and provide enough of a payment to cover all basic needs, whereas a guaranteed income is meant to provide an income floor but not meant to be a replacement for wages and can also be targeted to those who most need it.

"UBI would provide everyone—regardless of income—with equal cash support (often instead of existing social benefits). Oakland Resilient Families is intended for low-income BIPOC families and therefore is by definition not 'universal'." ...

Oakland Resilient Families is funded entirely by philanthropic donations and the program has already raised $6.75 million.
 ...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fact-check-is-oakland-program-excluding-white-families-living-in-poverty-from-500-checks/ar-BB1f0kr6
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1319 on: March 26, 2021, 07:44:17 PM »
Wait, what ? They going to exclude white families ? i don't see this going well ...

sidd

kassy

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8344
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2053
  • Likes Given: 1990
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1320 on: March 26, 2021, 09:36:25 PM »
It is a private program not a state policy.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1321 on: April 04, 2021, 05:27:59 AM »

johnm33

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 780
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 130
  • Likes Given: 127
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1322 on: April 04, 2021, 11:21:31 AM »
Taxes in China, https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/peoples-republic-of-china/individual/taxes-on-personal-income
average income about 90,000, free healthcare and education included, housing costs about 10% of income.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25922
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1160
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1323 on: April 20, 2021, 09:20:18 PM »
Los Angeles, California
Mayor Garcetti’s $24-million anti-poverty program would give cash to L.A. residents 
April 19, 2021
Quote
A new citywide, anti-poverty proposal by Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti would give cash — strings-free — to thousands of city residents in the coming months.

Garcetti’s $24-million Basic Income Guaranteed program, which will be included in his city budget to be released Tuesday, would provide $1,000 a month to 2,000 Los Angeles families for a year. There will be no obligation on how to spend the money, according to the mayor’s office.

Progressive mayors across the country have embraced such “universal basic income” programs, which typically provide a monthly stipend to a small pool of residents. Initiatives in Stockton and Jackson, Miss., have already been launched, and other cities are exploring similar initiatives. ...
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-19/garcetti-los-angeles-universal-basic-income
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1324 on: May 20, 2021, 05:36:32 PM »

kassy

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8344
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2053
  • Likes Given: 1990
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1325 on: May 21, 2021, 11:48:07 AM »
Interesting story.
Reminded me of this:

Climate change had significant impact on Amazon communities before arrival of Europeans



New analysis of what the climate was like in the Amazon from 700 to 1300 shows the changing weather led to the end of communities who farmed intensively, and had a strong class structure. Those who lived without political hierarchy, who grew a greater variety of crops, and took more care to look after the land so it remained fertile, were able to adapt and were less affected.

and much more:
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-06/uoe-cch061719.php
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9518
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1337
  • Likes Given: 618
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1326 on: May 21, 2021, 04:57:28 PM »
For Neven: perils of concentrated wealth

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/05/ant-tapeworm/618919/

sidd

Thanks, sidd. But either you posted the wrong link, or you are trying to show us an analogy: tapeworms (=concentrated wealth) infect and change their hosts (the rich) so that they in turn hypnotize the ants around them (=society) and can then basically freeload through their extended lives. Is that it?
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1327 on: May 21, 2021, 05:04:13 PM »
The link is correct. I was sorta waiting to see what conclusions you would draw, but by and large they are the same as mine.

sidd

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1328 on: May 21, 2021, 08:06:11 PM »
White at Lapham's Quarterly: Dystopias from Davos

" see national governments as residues from the past whose only useful function is to facilitate the elite’s global operations."

"much of what we normally take for reality is largely a screen of clichés—ideological fantasies—that have no basis in fact but that we live through more or less willingly anyway"

"Even though none of this makes any sense at all, we are forbidden to say what’s true"

"The claim that global capital is going to discover its inner FDR just in time to avoid calamity is based upon the assumption that there is sensitivity and unsuspected virtue within Davos Men"

"In order for this economy to thrive, we don’t actually need you. We don’t need your labor, because robots and a few college kids will do ever more of the work. To which the unneeded must reply, “Yeah, but what am I supposed to do?” The answer to that question is becoming increasingly obvious: die. Die of Covid, die of poverty, or die of despair, but as much as possible, do it where you won’t be seen."

"Fritz Lang’s 1927 movie Metropolis, with its nightmare vision of mechanized humanity, has come into full flower"

"anybody outside of the god realm doesn’t exist for the gods, mostly because they can’t be seen. It’s not only that our contemporary gods are cruel; it’s that others don’t exist for them except as data points ...  The gods never see us, never mix with us, don’t know us except as flunkies and wage slaves, the redundant."

“Let the world die so long as I survive.”

"William Rivers Pitt: “Capitalism demanded the nation not shut down and the workers keep working, even in the teeth of a lethal pandemic.” For Pitt, because minorities and immigrants do most of this work, capitalism’s indifference to their well-being is a form of genocide."

"the one thing technocapitalism takes comfort in is the certainty that there is nothing, especially no enemy, outside of it."

"The only things outside of capital are the natural places it is destroying and will soon leave behind, what it glibly calls “sacrifice zones,”"

"As the far-viewing novelist William T. Vollmann wrote in 1996:

    More and more, the privileged people will work in their homes and shop from their homes and access the internet and play with their computers which will make the phosphor-dot worlds more and more real as the world outside continues to go to shit. "

"This locked-in world for which there is no longer an outside is capitalism’s World According to Money. "

" if we allow some to live in places outside of our social factory, they’ll all want to live there."

https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/technology/living-world-without-stars

sidd




Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9518
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1337
  • Likes Given: 618
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1329 on: May 23, 2021, 02:57:52 PM »
The link is correct. I was sorta waiting to see what conclusions you would draw, but by and large they are the same as mine.

Thanks for the exercise! I really like analogies. But with my monomaniacal focus on wealth concentration, you can post basically anything you want and I will tell you what the analogy is.  ;D

What is always interesting as well, is to see where the analogy breaks down. In this case I would say that the tapeworms (=wealth concentration) do not end up dominating and destroying the ant hill (and thus themselves), nor do the uninfected ants (=society) end up hating or blaming the infected ants (=the rich).

My favourite part of the analogy is where the tapeworms (=wealth concentration) completely change the behaviour and appearance of infected ants (=the rich). If I would ever write a book about this, there'd be at least one chapter dedicated to how wealth affects people's mental health. My theory is that concentrated wealth selects people that have an inclination towards sociopathy, because they are the most efficient at concentrating wealth.

Now, the analogy would almost be perfect, if the uninfected ants would start hating and threatening the infected ones (seeing them (=the rich) as the enemy instead of the tapeworms (=wealth concentration)), who would then in turn take over the whole ant hill by infecting everyone with their tapeworms, followed by Nature (=birds) swooping in, eating all of the infected ants, and virtually destroying the ant hill.

After which, everything would start anew.  :)

There's an analogy with entropy in there somewhere as well...
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

jens

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 76
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1330 on: May 24, 2021, 11:17:21 AM »
My theory is that concentrated wealth selects people that have an inclination towards sociopathy, because they are the most efficient at concentrating wealth.

Concentration of wealth in itself means unequality and hierarchies. And to get to the top of hierarchy, it benefits psychopathic and manipulative traits, because these people are prepared to do anything to "win" and get to the top of hierarchies. A laidback/empathetic person isn't interested in endlessly "competing" with them. There is more to life than being in power.

Shared Humanity

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1400
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 471
  • Likes Given: 55
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1331 on: May 24, 2021, 02:03:25 PM »
Inequality of wealth and income is a huge problem and it is getting worse. It is greed and selfishness that is driving this inequity. Would solving this problem once and for all allow us to fix AGW?

Not sure how this would be accomplished but lets assume the world's income and wealth were suddenly evenly distributed. The purchasing power of the vast majority of people on the planet would grow dramatically as would the world economy as a whole. AGW would become demonstrably worse. The billions of low carbon footprint humans would suddenly have much larger carbon footprints.

The growth system of Capitalism is the problem and, absent changes in human behavior across the planet, we will not solve AGW.

We cannot grow ourselves out of a problem whose root cause is growth.

Shared Humanity

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1400
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 471
  • Likes Given: 55
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1332 on: May 24, 2021, 02:15:57 PM »
I live in the U.S. We consume more per capita than any other country on the planet. People across the world envy our lifestyles and nations work furiously to provide these kinds of lifestyles for their citizens. Below is a mock up of a bumper sticker I have actually seen on pickup trucks in the U.S.

This is the problem.

kassy

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8344
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2053
  • Likes Given: 1990
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1333 on: May 24, 2021, 07:42:23 PM »
The tragedy of capitalism is that it shields the consumers from most consequences of their actions. You do not see the mountaintops removed for your coal, you do not breath in the poisons from Cancer alley if you do not live there etc. Hardly anyone thinks about the conditions of the people making those cheap clothes or assembling I-phones.

We also hardly address things like persistent chemical pollution or indeed climate change.

People also take so much for granted. As a simple exercise count your cars, or the number of devices, or flights so far you and work out what it would mean if everybody had had them. It quickly becomes unsustainable. But it is normal for us.

A much more egalitarian society that strives to elevate all would be much better but that is not how we roll.

After Capitalism we will have collapse and chaos.

*

Quote
What is always interesting as well, is to see where the analogy breaks down. In this case I would say that the tapeworms (=wealth concentration) do not end up dominating and destroying the ant hill (and thus themselves), nor do the uninfected ants (=society) end up hating or blaming the infected ants (=the rich).

Now, the analogy would almost be perfect, if the uninfected ants would start hating and threatening the infected ones (seeing them (=the rich) as the enemy instead of the tapeworms (=wealth concentration)), who would then in turn take over the whole ant hill by infecting everyone with their tapeworms, followed by Nature (=birds) swooping in, eating all of the infected ants, and virtually destroying the ant hill.

The infected ants hog energy by staying in the really young stage. They are seen as something to nourish.

People don´t hate the rich per se. And as you argued before they are actually just as caught up.

In the article i posted the more hierarchical society collapsed earlier but that was because of energy wasted. And i guess that in that case many people just left.

In the Eastern Amazon the Marajoara elite lived on large mounds, which each could have been home to around 2,000 people. These chiefdoms disintegrated after 1200. It had been thought this was due to the arrival of Aruã nomadic foragers, but the study suggests decreasing rainfall also played a part. Communities used the mounds to manage water, with the rich monopolising resources. This made them sensitive to prolonged droughts.

At the same time Santarém culture, established in around 1100, was flourishing. They grew a variety of crops - maize, sweet potato, squash - and worked to enrich the forest. This meant drier conditions had less impact.


or

We propose that societies with intensive, specialized land-use systems were vulnerable to transient climate change. In contrast, land-use systems that relied primarily on polyculture agroforestry, resulting in the formation of enriched forests and fertile Amazonian dark earth in the long term, were more resilient to climate change.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-019-0924-0

 
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Shared Humanity

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1400
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 471
  • Likes Given: 55
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1334 on: May 24, 2021, 08:57:46 PM »
After Capitalism we will have collapse and chaos.

Likely.

Our challenge is to begin the hard work of actually designing a post-capitalistic society. It will require a cooperative, intentional approach with input from all affected which is, of course, everyone.

jens

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 112
  • Likes Given: 76
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1335 on: May 24, 2021, 09:27:22 PM »
After Capitalism we will have collapse and chaos.

Likely.

Our challenge is to begin the hard work of actually designing a post-capitalistic society. It will require a cooperative, intentional approach with input from all affected which is, of course, everyone.

Capitalism will gradually become ever-more totalitarian, controlling, and feudal if you like, as the climate crisis deepens. And also more localized due to disintegration of the world. The decisive fall of capitalism or organized society will come with food crisis though, I think. You can't pacify empty stomachs with any empty promises.

How could you then design a post-capitalist society in these circumstances, would indeed be a challenge.

Shared Humanity

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1400
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 471
  • Likes Given: 55
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1336 on: May 24, 2021, 10:49:46 PM »
After Capitalism we will have collapse and chaos.

Likely.

Our challenge is to begin the hard work of actually designing a post-capitalistic society. It will require a cooperative, intentional approach with input from all affected which is, of course, everyone.

Capitalism will gradually become ever-more totalitarian, controlling, and feudal if you like, as the climate crisis deepens. And also more localized due to disintegration of the world. The decisive fall of capitalism or organized society will come with food crisis though, I think. You can't pacify empty stomachs with any empty promises.

How could you then design a post-capitalist society in these circumstances, would indeed be a challenge.

You do it now.

Tom_Mazanec

  • Guest
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1337 on: May 26, 2021, 01:48:33 AM »
The trouble with capitalism
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2021/05/the-trouble-with-capitalism.html#more
Quote
This list is not meant to be exhaustive, but merely illustrative.  And what it illustrates is that it is unhelpful to talk about either embracing or rejecting capitalism full stop.  The term has too many connotations for that, and needs to be disambiguated.  Hence the sweeping claims often made by both sides in the debate over capitalism inevitably generate excessive heat while reducing light.  When people say “I support capitalism,” they often mean “I support 1-5” but their opponents hear them as saying “I support 6-10.”  And when people say “I oppose capitalism,” they often mean “I oppose 6-10,” but their opponents hear them as saying “I oppose 1-5.”  To a large extent, they talk past each other.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1338 on: June 04, 2021, 09:02:48 AM »
Brave New World: Train to stay alive

"a leaked Amazon pamphlet obtained by Motherboard, the company describes warehouse workers as “industrial athletes” and details how its Working Well program will help workers by laying out guidelines to “prepare their bodies” for walking “up to 13 miles a day” or lifting “a total of 20,000 pounds” during a shift."

"We want to make sure you feel your best while doing your best!"

"helpful tips such as stretching and getting a massage."

"a suite of recent Amazon initiatives aimed at improving its image as a brutal employer"

"in 2020 Amazon workers were severely injured more than 24,000 times, twice the rate of the rest of the warehouse industry "

"urges its industrial athletes to eat well because they'll be burning about 400 calories every hour."

"Fatigue is often a large factor in injuries,"

 "monitor your urine color."

" buying shoes "at the end of the day when your feet are swollen to allow for plenty of room when they swell during work,""

"managers “hire to fire” so they can hit certain turnover rate quotas."

"was told to ice what turned out to be a herniated disc and take some ibuprofen, but was expected to keep working for the next few weeks even as it became clear his injury was serious."

"told to take my muscle relaxers at night"

"it was just hurting so bad ... But I pushed through"

" had to have discs in his neck removed, fused with a plate secured with screws, and wore a collar securing his neck to limit movement"

https://www.vice.com/en/article/epnvp7/amazon-calls-warehouse-workers-industrial-athletes-in-leaked-wellness-pamphlet

I would bet that Bezos would not finish a single shift at his warehouses.

sidd


sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1339 on: June 09, 2021, 02:09:31 AM »
Propublica publishes IRS data on the 25 weathiest :

"those 25 people saw their worth rise a collective $401 billion from 2014 to 2018. They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That’s a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%."

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

A good argument for a wealth tax ...

sidd

" Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows"

 ---Leonard Cohen



sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1340 on: July 07, 2021, 09:39:30 AM »
How the West was won: Jay interviews Black on regulatory capture over the last forty years

https://theanalysis.news/series/bill-black-series/

Multi part series, read the transcripts if you dont have the time, but you will miss the affect and the delivery. Black was in the trenches, knows of what he tells.

sidd

gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 20628
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5308
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1341 on: July 07, 2021, 10:04:56 PM »
"It's the rich wot gets the pleasure,
It's the poor wot gets the blame,

It's the same the whole world over,
Ain't it all a bloody shame".

Old Music Hall song.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

morganism

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1781
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 220
  • Likes Given: 129
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1342 on: July 15, 2021, 12:01:40 PM »
updating the models of The Limits to Growth, by matching new data to the original.  Not a good look....

"In this day and age of data abundance, can we create an optimal scenario or are the impacts of the past few decades too late to change now? Read further to understand the if there is a window of opportunity and what we can do.
Given the unappealing prospect of collapse, I was curious to see which scenarios were aligning most closely with empirical data today. After all, the book that featured this world model was a bestseller in the 70s, and by now we’d have several decades of empirical data which would make a comparison meaningful. But to my surprise I could not find recent attempts for this. So I decided to do it myself."

https://advisory.kpmg.us/articles/2021/limits-to-growth.html


sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6785
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1047
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1343 on: October 15, 2021, 08:39:21 AM »
Well, well, well. I was wondering how long this would take, i was hoping it would be after i was dead. Guess not.

"the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) announced it had developed a new asset class and accompanying listing vehicle meant “to preserve and restore the natural assets that ultimately underpin the ability for there to be life on Earth.” Called a natural asset company, or NAC, the vehicle will allow for the formation of specialized corporations “that hold the rights to the ecosystem services produced on a given chunk of land, services like carbon sequestration or clean water.” These NACs will then maintain, manage and grow the natural assets they commodify, with the end of goal of maximizing the aspects of that natural asset that are deemed by the company to be profitable."

“Our hope is that owning a natural asset company is going to be a way that an increasingly broad range of investors have the ability to invest in something that’s intrinsically valuable, but, up to this point, was really excluded from the financial markets.”

“pioneering a new asset class based on natural assets and the mechanism to convert them to financial capital.”

""These assets,” IEG states, make “life on Earth possible and enjoyable…They include biological systems that provide clean air, water, foods, medicines, a stable climate, human health and societal potential.” "

"the totality of nature up for sale"

"a NAC is “converted” into financial capital by launching an initial public offering on a stock exchange, like the NYSE. This last stage “generates capital to manage the natural asset” and the fluctuation of its price on the stock exchange “signals the value of its natural capital.” "

“as the natural asset prospers, providing a steady or increasing flow of ecosystem services, the company’s equity should appreciate accordingly providing investment returns. Shareholders and investors in the company through secondary offers, can take profit by selling shares. These sales can be gauged to reflect the increase in capital value of the stock, roughly in-line with its profitability, creating cashflow based on the health of the company and its assets.”

"while the asset classes of the current economy are value at approximately $512 trillion, the asset classes unlocked by NACs are significantly larger at $4,000 trillion (i.e. $4 quadrillion). "

https://unlimitedhangout.com/2021/10/investigative-reports/wall-streets-takeover-of-nature-advances-with-launch-of-new-asset-class/

sidd




Iain

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 584
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 95
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1344 on: October 15, 2021, 09:43:29 AM »
It reads like a satire, I suspected it was, or an "April fool" type story

But Reuters have the same story:

https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/nyse-says-co-launch-new-environmentally-sustainable-asset-class-2021-09-14/


"They took all the trees and put them in a tree museum
Then charged the people a dollar and a half just to see 'em"

Big Yellow Taxi - Joni Mitchell
« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 10:08:24 AM by Iain »
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

kassy

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8344
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2053
  • Likes Given: 1990
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1345 on: October 15, 2021, 10:36:10 AM »
Why Nature-Based Solutions Won't Solve the Climate Crisis—They'll Just Make Rich People Even Richer

Imagine you're a Baka, a hunter gatherer in the Congo Basin forest. That land has been your home for generations. You know every stone and every tree there. Your grandparents are buried on that land. You and your people have nourished it, taken care of it and loved it. Now imagine that you're evicted and your house destroyed because, as someone explains to you, a white man living very far away, thinks that your forest has to become a Protected Area where only elephants are allowed to live. He likes elephants, they tell you. White men like elephants. Apparently he went up to space and realized that he likes your forest, and he is worried about climate change. That man created a company that produced 60.64 million metric tons of carbon dioxide last year—the equivalent of burning through 140 million barrels of oil. But, they tell you, if your forest is protected, he can feel better about his emissions of CO2. You might wonder why he doesn't stop his emissions instead of destroying your life. The answer to that is money. You might also wonder how anyone can believe he's doing good. And the answer to that is the topic of this article.

...

What are Nature-based solutions?

The name sounds great, doesn't it? Appearing for the first time in 2009, in a paper prepared by the IUCN for global climate negotiations, the concept was pictured  by big conservation organizations as the "forgotten solution" to climate change. The idea is very simple: nature holds the solutions to our various environmental crises, and, in the case of climate change, we can mitigate it by avoiding more emissions from natural and agricultural ecosystems (that is, creating more Protected Areas) or by increasing carbon sequestration within them (that is, planting trees or restoring forests). Here it is: a magical solution, that does not rely on significant changes by large economies and their major industries.

Global debates on climate and biodiversity now increasingly include the claim that 30% of global climate mitigation can be achieved through Nature-based solutions (NbS).

The real problem starts when nature-based solutions are presented as the best way to tackle the climate crisis, providing an easy solution that doesn't involve burning less fossil fuel and changing our consumption patterns—which are the only real answers. But as the required scale of NbS grows, so does the likelihood of a devastating impact on Indigenous Peoples and other local communities.

Hidden in the catchy name we find the usual (and not very new!) market-based approach. Practically speaking, NbS provides a new spin on what used to be called carbon offsets. "Nature", in this context, is considered a capital or an asset, something we can put a price on and trade in the market. Let's say that Shell (one of the big supporters of NbS) is releasing X amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. In order to claim that it's respecting its climate commitments, Shell can carry on releasing exactly the same amount of CO2, as long as it also supports the creation of a Protected Area that stocks the same amount of CO2, or plants some trees that are supposed to absorb the same amount of CO2. This exchange, of course, is carried out in the financial markets, through the creation of carbon credits. And this is what governments mean by "net zero": they don't really intend to reduce their emissions to zero, they will simply claim to "offset" those emissions somewhere else.

Transforming nature into a form of capital (in this case, as carbon credits), that can then be sold in the market, is such a fashionable idea that it even got the support of the conservationist and TV personality Sir David Attenborough.

So what's wrong with this?

From a justice perspective: everything.

...

The most effective known way of pulling carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere is by planting trees. Indeed, according to the 2017 estimates, afforestation accounts for nearly half of the potential for climate mitigation through NbS. But achieving this potential would require planting trees over an estimated area of nearly 700 million hectares, almost the size of Australia. Where is that land going to be found? Certainly not in France or the United Kingdom (among the supporters of NbS). The clear risk is that many indigenous peoples and local communities, among those least responsible for the climate crisis, lose their lands.

Amarlal Baiga, from the Baiga tribe, explains the impact of afforestation for offsetting on his community. In this case it's biodiversity offsetting, but the process and the devastating consequences are the same. "The forest department has forcefully put fences around my field and around everyone else's fields. They have put fences and planted teak trees. This land is ours, this land belonged to our ancestors. They made us plant the trees, they made fools out of us saying: "these plants will benefit you" but now they are harassing us and saying: "this jungle is ours and this land doesn't belong to you anymore."

and much more:
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021/10/13/why-nature-based-solutions-wont-solve-climate-crisis-theyll-just-make-rich-people

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25922
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1160
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1346 on: October 31, 2021, 04:25:05 PM »
How can billionaires solve world hunger? 🤔
Quote
Dr. Eli David
Fact check:

🔹 2% of @elonmusk's wealth is $6B
🔹 In 2020 the UN World Food Program (WFP) raised $8.4B. How come it didn't "solve world hunger"?


10/30/21, 11:50 AM https://twitter.com/drelidavid/status/1454475769200185349
⬇️ Image below.

Elon Musk replied:
Quote
If WFP can describe on this Twitter thread exactly how $6B will solve world hunger, I will sell Tesla stock right now and do it.
  —
But it must be open source accounting, so the public sees precisely how the money is spent.
10/31/21, 9:50 AM. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1454808104256737289
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 20628
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5308
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1347 on: November 03, 2021, 08:57:30 PM »
Re the above post...

Some of the most biased / poor reporting I have seen for some time.
& shame on Musk for responding without checking the facts

The director of the WFP (Beasley) made a plea to Musk and Bezos to ‘step up now, on a one-time basis to help the 42 million people that will starve if not given proper aid soon".

The WFP annual budget of 8.4 billion is supposed to finance solutions to the following

ENDING HUNGER
Across the world, up to 811 million people do not have enough food. According to recent estimates, 41 million people in 43 countries are at risk of sliding into famine – the most extreme form of hunger, which can result in death from starvation or disease. Indeed, parts of  Yemen, South Sudan and Madagascar may be close to or are already in the grip of famine.

The consequence of diets poor in vitamins, minerals and other nutrients are affecting the health and life prospects of millions more, and casting a shadow over the future of communities and entire countries. 

Although enough food is produced to feed everyone on this planet, the goal of a world with zero hunger, as set out in the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development and specifically in Sustainable Development Goal 2, remains hugely challenging due to a toxic cocktail of conflict, climate change, disasters and structural poverty and inequality. Over the past year, the socio-economic consequences of the COVID-19 pandemic have further exacerbated the situation by pushing millions of vulnerable people into greater food insecurity.

Conflict
60 percent of the world’s hungry people live in zones affected by conflict, which is the main driver in 8 out of 10 of the worst hunger crises (as in the case of Yemen, South Sudan, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Syria, for example).

It just shows how rich countries and especially their richest citizens just haven't got a fucking clue. ( It would not surprise me to find 42 million US people whose breadwinners also have to choose between food, medicine and the rent on a regular basis)
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25922
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1160
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1348 on: November 05, 2021, 07:59:38 PM »
Re the above post:

As Musk wrote, he is ready to donate substantial sums to address world hunger.  But under the current systems, most of the donated funds are taken by greed, corruption and theft — as is much of the food — resulting in only small amounts of help being provided to those who need it the most.

”Just give money” will not solve world hunger. 

What must happen first is to let everyone know exactly how the money will be spent, then spend it efficiently and effectively, and then verify that the people who need the help actually received it, and received it in a humane fashion.  Shame on the corrupt providers for failing to do this!

Quote
Elon Musk @elonmusk
@WFPChief @DrEliDavid Please publish your current & proposed spending in detail so people can see exactly where money goes.
Sunlight is a wonderful thing.
10/31/21 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1454921466500222977

Quote
Elon Musk
@WFPChief @DrEliDavid What happened here?

UN officials 'force children to perform oral sex for food' in warzones | Express.co.uk
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/627783/Starving-children-as-young-as-NINE-forced-to-give-UN-officials-oral-sex-to-get-food

10/31/21 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1454930023966773249
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25922
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1160
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #1349 on: January 24, 2022, 04:44:34 PM »
Another test of UBI:
 
Mothers in New York City to get $1,000 every month thanks to guaranteed income program
“You’re talking about giving somebody money and letting them apply it to the highest-need area of life: keeping the heat on, contacting family in Venezuela, taking an Uber to the hospital, getting an unlimited MetroCard.”
Quote
A group of mothers in New York City are receiving up to $1,000 a month thanks to a new guaranteed income program that’s looking to test how a small infusion of cash has the potential to cure poverty.

The Bridge Project is an organization that launched in June 2021 with the intent to support low-income mothers in New York City during the first 1,000 days of their children’s lives through a biweekly cash infusion. The project currently supports 100 families, half of whom get $500 per month and the other half $1,000 for the next three years.

For now the project is focusing on mothers living in the Inwood/Washington Heights and Harlem neighborhoods, but it intends to expand support to more neighborhoods and boroughs throughout New York City.

Along with receiving financial support, mothers will be surveyed to monitor their families’ economic and housing stability, physical and mental health, and their children’s development progress.

That speaks in part to the premise of the project, which will also test the idea that money invested in a child during their first few years carries the strongest potential for long-term academic success, adult earnings and health. Some research, like the Heckman Equation, has suggested that the most economically efficient time to develop important skills is during the very early years of childhood. …
https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/poverty/590599-mothers-in-new-york-city-to-get-up-to-1000-thanks-to
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.