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Author Topic: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?  (Read 63441 times)

johnm33

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #700 on: July 13, 2018, 10:04:03 AM »
Pretty much in the same vein as above, https://www.oftwominds.com/blogjuly18/USA-3rd-world7-18.html This illustrates the state that all 'mature' political bodies, ungoverned by an overiding ethical framework achieve, before collapse. They all resemble the hierarchical set up that social insects have gamed, it's not a good fit for primates. With the insidious penetration of digital oversight I'm not at all sure that the complete breakdown, with all the social chaos that implies, will be any worse than the clearly unplanned, but totally necessary to maintain the status quo, accelerating tyranny ahead.

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #701 on: August 12, 2018, 05:51:46 PM »
This Bloomberg author is worried.

Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous
What happens when a nation built on the concept of individual property ownership starts to give that up?
Quote
Some social problems are blatantly obvious in daily life, while others are longer-term, more corrosive and perhaps mostly invisible. Lately I’ve been worrying about a problem of the latter kind: the erosion of personal ownership and what that will mean for our loyalties to traditional American concepts of capitalism and private property.

The main culprits for the change are software and the internet. For instance, Amazon’s Kindle and other methods of online reading have revolutionized how Americans consume text. Fifteen years ago, people typically owned the books and magazines they were reading. Much less so now. If you look at the fine print, it turns out that you do not own the books on your Kindle. Amazon.com Inc. does.

I do not consider this much of a practical problem. Although Amazon could obliterate the books on my Kindle, this has happened only in a very small number of cases, typically involving account abuse. Still, this licensing of e-books, instead of stacking books on a shelf, has altered our psychological sense of how we connect to what we read – it is no longer truly “ours.”

The change in our relationship with physical objects does not stop there. We used to buy DVDs or video cassettes; now viewers stream movies or TV shows with Netflix. Even the company’s disc-mailing service is falling out of favor. Music lovers used to buy compact discs; now Spotify and YouTube are more commonly used to hear our favorite tunes.

The great American teenage dream used to be to own your own car. That is dwindling in favor of urban living, greater reliance on mass transit, cycling, walking and, of course, ride-sharing services such as Uber and Lyft.

Each of these changes is beneficial, yet I worry that Americans are, slowly but surely, losing their connection to the idea of private ownership. The nation was based on the notion that property ownership gives individuals a stake in the system. It set Americans apart from feudal peasants, taught us how property rights and incentives operate, and was a kind of training for future entrepreneurship. Do we not, as parents, often give our children pets or other valuable possessions to teach them basic lessons of life and stewardship?

We’re hardly at a point where American property has been abolished, but I am still nervous that we are finding ownership to be so inconvenient. The notion of “possessive individualism” is sometimes mocked, but in fact it is a significant source of autonomy and initiative. Perhaps we are becoming more communal and caring in positive ways, but it also seems to be more conformist and to generate fewer empire builders and entrepreneurs.

What about your iPhone, that all-essential life device? Surely you own that? Well, sort of. When Apple Inc. decides to change the operating software, sooner or later you have to go along with what they have selected. Gmail is due to change its overall look and functionality, maybe for the better, but again eventually this choice will not be yours either: It’s Google’s. The very economics of software encourage standardization, and changes over time, so de facto you rent much of what you use rather than owning it. I typed the draft of this column using Microsoft Word, and sooner or later my contract to use it will expire and I will have to renew.

Imagine the “internet of things” penetrating our homes more and more, through services like Amazon’s Alexa. We’ll have ovens and thermostats that  you set with your voice, and a toilet and bathroom that periodically give you the equivalent of a medical check-up. Yes, you will still own the title to your physical house, but most of the value in that home you will in essence rent from outside companies or, in the case of municipal utilities, the government.

As for that iPhone, it is already clear that you do not have a full legal right to repair it, and indeed more and more devices are sold to consumers without giving them corresponding rights to fix or alter those goods and services. John Deere tractors are sold to farmers with plenty of software, and farmers have to hack into the tractor if they wish to fix it themselves. There is now a small but burgeoning “right to repair” political movement.

Does that sound like something our largely agrarian Founding Fathers might have been happy about? The libertarian political theorist might tell you that arrangement is simply freedom of contract in action. But the more commonsensical, broad libertarian intuitions of the American public encapsulate a more brutish and direct sense that some things we simply own and hold the rights to.

Those are intuitions which are growing increasingly disconnected from reality, and no one knows what lies on the other side of this social experiment.
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/view/articles/2018-08-12/american-ownership-society-is-changing-thanks-to-technology
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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #702 on: August 12, 2018, 10:29:10 PM »
"Do we not, as parents, often give our children pets or other valuable possessions to teach them basic lessons of life and stewardship?"

That sentence tells you all about the author right there.

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #703 on: August 13, 2018, 01:39:57 AM »
"Do we not, as parents, often give our children pets or other valuable possessions to teach them basic lessons of life and stewardship?"

That sentence tells you all about the author right there.

sidd

Of course, Bloomberg opinions are very likely to espouse conspicuous consumption — it’s why they exist.  But I was heartened by the examples of where we are moving away from accumulating physical things. 

I recall the story of a family preparing to evacuate their home due to wildfire.  The teenager said, “I’m ready.  I have my phone.  Everything I need is in the cloud.”
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #704 on: August 20, 2018, 08:07:17 AM »
Banksy on Capitalism, image attached.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #705 on: August 20, 2018, 10:43:50 AM »
One can argue that things are SO Bad and the time so short that nothing short of a streamlined militaristic structure will do... Think of it in reverse... If there was only one survival spaceship or Mars outpost to get away to, would we really be arguing about what BRAND of moon buggy to buy?... How to 'OUTCLASS' the jones' with a more showy hut??  Probably far better examples of how we'd really seek a very streamlined system when everything is at stake but the only choice these days is what works best, how to make it better and be thankful we have it when we need it... Only the general concept of the military or NASA or the command on a maritime ship embodies the degree of efficiency needed.  One could ask how do people at the Antarctic outpost decide what to do... isn't it also a structured streamlined system?  You get the same dam bed everyone else has, do your critical work and be happy for what time you have to share with each other. PERIOD... Oh and btw... healthcare and education are also free in the military so its also a system with more benefits than silly/meaninglyess choices!

TerryM

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #706 on: August 20, 2018, 11:38:24 AM »

sidd
That may win the Chart of the Decade award!!!
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #707 on: September 09, 2018, 03:40:56 PM »
Redistribution of wealth.

Giving Pledge signed by Bill Gates, Elon Musk may reach $600 billion
Quote
• At least 175 people committed to donating a majority of their fortunes through the Giving Pledge, which could be worth as much as $600 billion by 2022, according to a Wealth-X report.
• The pledge has drawn some criticism because it allows donors to name their own charities in their wills.
• Education was the top philanthropic cause in 2017, with about 62% of billionaires donating at least part of their fortunes to higher education funding, scholarships and more....
https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-elon-musk-giving-pledge-may-reach-600-billion-2018-7
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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #708 on: September 16, 2018, 08:06:25 PM »
Taibbi at Rolling Stone on lessons unlearned from the crisis of a decade ago:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/financial-crisis-ten-year-anniversary-723798/

sidd

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #709 on: September 16, 2018, 08:36:18 PM »
nothing wrong with capitalism. we just have to make sure we are accounting for externalities like pollution. capitalism is just the absence of restrictions by authorities. free individuals interacting as they choose is called capitalism. having a free monetary system would be crucial as well.
big time oops

Lurk

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #710 on: September 17, 2018, 04:59:48 AM »

Oh boy. another neoliberal fanatical believer?

nothing wrong with capitalism.


False

Quote
we just have to make sure we are accounting for externalities like pollution.


False

Quote
capitalism is just the absence of restrictions by authorities.

False
Quote
free individuals interacting as they choose is called capitalism.

False
Quote
having a free monetary system would be crucial as well.


Irrelevant so basically false.

Excellent - a perfect score on the True Believer Quotient
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

etienne

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #711 on: September 19, 2018, 09:06:29 PM »
Capitalism is a concept, and like for all concept, you have the therory, and the way it is implemented. I would say that most important flaws are :
  • when you start to accumulate money, it gives you a power that makes it possible for you to sale whaterver you want, saying that it is whatever the customer think he needs, a power that even has an impact on democracy.
  • it requires growth because everybody wants more money, but prices can't be increased so easily, so efficiency gains are required, this is mainly achieved through growth. Most of the time, when somebody grows, there is somebody else loosing market share
  • mens are not just a brain, but they have feelings, so they don't buy products just with a rational thinking and markets law don't apply so well as expected (this is valid for trendy product that cost too much, for having your friends as supplier/customer, for not checking regularely what other suppliers offer, for corruption...)
But I guess that this is valid for most economical systems.


johnm33

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #713 on: September 20, 2018, 09:27:44 PM »
This could go in must reads or money, taking back the power to create money into public control, for the common good.
"Central bankers are now aggressively playing the stock market. To say they are buying up the planet may be an exaggeration, but they could. They can create money at will, and they have declared their “independence” from government. They have become rogue players in a game of their own. "
Ellen Brown, https://ellenbrown.com/2018/09/14/central-banks-have-gone-rogue-putting-us-all-at-risk/

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #714 on: September 27, 2018, 12:42:24 AM »
Elliott at the Guardian on perils of capitalist globalization: sees the re-emergence of state managed capitalism:

"Now the most powerful man on the planet is saying something different: that the only way to remedy the economic and social ills caused by globalisation is through the nation state ... he’s not a lone voice."

"China – has never given up on the nation state."

"It was the way most western countries operated in the decades after the second world war ... "

"while the nation state is far from perfect, it is where an alternative to the current failed model will inevitably begin. Increasingly, voters are looking to the one form of government where they do have a say to provide economic security. And if the mainstream parties are not prepared to offer what these voters want – a decently paid job, properly funded public services and controls on immigration – then they will look elsewhere for parties or movements that will."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/26/donald-trump-globalisation-nation-state

sidd

TerryM

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #715 on: September 27, 2018, 04:31:18 AM »
The decades following WWII were great years in North America. A high school education and a union job bought a home in the 'burbs, a new car every two years, and a stay home mom to raise Bobbie and Betty.


The American Dream writ large for white, straight, males who didn't think it would ever end. Didn't think about South East Asia, didn't think about lily white suburbs, didn't think about much at all.
They never questioned why the Koreans needed to be separated, or why the Vietnamese cost us the gold standard.
Jack, then Martin and Bobby were murdered - but there was never a coup - We knew that because those still in power told us so. Why would they lie?
Crazy lone gunmen. Crazy!


Kids in the street with long hair smoked dope, popped pills, screwed everything that moved, and accused the Powers that Be of immorality. If they'd been accustomed to thinking, they might have commented on the hypocrisy. Instead they sent them to Vietnam or jail. Jail was safer, but the dope was better in Vietnam.


A washed up movie star utilized his acting experience, and the perfidy of his "followers" to win a presidential election. The short age of the semi literate American Dreamer crashed to an end.
Terry

Sleepy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #716 on: September 27, 2018, 09:25:34 AM »
We’re getting there, aren’t we? We’re making the transition towards an all-electric future. We can now leave fossil fuels in the ground and thwart climate breakdown. Or so you might imagine, if you follow the technology news.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/26/economic-growth-fossil-fuels-habit-oil-industry
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etienne

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #717 on: September 27, 2018, 11:27:37 PM »
My wife has been reading a lot about "voluntary simplicity" lately, there are many good ideas around that concept. I wonder if sometimes people are not confused between self sufficiency through simplicity and through solar panels (+ diesel generator for the cloudy days).

Bruce Steele

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #718 on: September 28, 2018, 12:11:31 AM »
etienne, I think of solar as part of an exit from fossil fuels. Even with the best of intentions it is difficult to live both a simple life and live within any current civilization. Fresh water, irrigation water and sanitation are all energy drains we are totally dependent upon , civilization wise.  Computer use ,food , recreation and transportation can be simplified from and individual standpoint but there are limits to what cities can do ... to collectively simplify. I guess I am trying yo say there is plenty of opportunities to simplify but something like hard limits to simplify civilization. Solar can ,I believe ,power some of those necessities but we collectively need to walk back our expectations for how much it can power.
IMO
 

Sleepy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #719 on: September 28, 2018, 12:51:07 PM »
Voluntary simplicity got me thinking about Joan Pick, again. Posted another link about her in the Hyperloop thread (weird huh) a while back, note the symbol on her cap...
https://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/news/croydon-news/croydon-running-lady-died-following-531606
Quote
"We know we're using too much energy," she said. "We have to live within the planet's means.

"There is no alternative to a fundamental change in the way we live."

Miss Pick's decision to boycott planes, trains and automobiles came as a scientist in 1973 while working for a Croydon firm of consultants advising the energy industry.

She decided the world's mass-consumption approach to energy was wrong and began setting an example for everyone to follow.

Since then she only travelled as far as her legs would take her, which meant she had gone decades without a holiday.

"I'm a minimal energy user," she explained. "I don't expect anybody else to be as resolute as me, but I have to experiment with the energy-efficient lifestyle to prove it's survivable."

The Morris Minor Millennium she drove had been mothballed in her garage since 1972.

Her pact with herself meant that, in the 16 years before 2008, she had been no further than Tower Bridge to the north, Tolworth to the west, Reigate and Godstone to the south or Sidcup to the east.

"It's the easiest, cheapest method of keeping fit," she said, explaining why she ran everywhere.

"People shout at me 'keep on running'.

"I'm usually stopped and people ask me if I'm the lady who runs everywhere and they ask me why I'm doing it, so I give them a little seminar.

"They say I'm an inspiration but they're still in their cars."
Yeah, We are.  :-[
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etienne

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #720 on: September 28, 2018, 06:31:51 PM »
etienne, I think of solar as part of an exit from fossil fuels. Even with the best of intentions it is difficult to live both a simple life and live within any current civilization. Fresh water, irrigation water and sanitation are all energy drains we are totally dependent upon , civilization wise.  Computer use ,food , recreation and transportation can be simplified from and individual standpoint but there are limits to what cities can do ... to collectively simplify. I guess I am trying yo say there is plenty of opportunities to simplify but something like hard limits to simplify civilization. Solar can ,I believe ,power some of those necessities but we collectively need to walk back our expectations for how much it can power.
IMO

I agree, but there are people who live with all the modern comfort, 100% renewable, and I don't believe that this is the way to go. Somehow when reading about voluntary simplicity, I found similar patterns, but which clearly cover a different context.
Voluntary simplicity, as far as I understood, doesn't mean refusing technology, but mainly reducing needs in order have more time and freedom. Reducing your debts and needs are things that gives you the most freedom, I have been during almost 9 years working part time without any debt, this was a great time (I'm still working part time but bought another house). Just reducing your carbon footprint doesn't bring any freedom, it just provides a good feeling.

Sleepy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #721 on: September 28, 2018, 08:52:26 PM »
but there are people who live with all the modern comfort, 100% renewable
Not if you account for how their "100% renewable" lifestyle was built, but that's not the real issue either. The social cost of carbon and sustainability on one planet, is.
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Sleepy

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Lurk

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #723 on: October 02, 2018, 01:36:05 PM »
The Pathology of the Rich – Chris Hedges 23 mins interview



Extract: You’ve written more recently about some other weaknesses of the people’s movement and here’s one and I’ll read read it, a piece you wrote called “let’s get this class war started”. The quote is “the inability to grasp the pathology of our oligarchic rulers is one of our gravest faults.”

Hedges: Because we don’t understand the pathology of the rich we’ve been saturated with cultural images and a kind of cultural deification of wealth and those who have wealth. We are being, you know they present people of immense wealth as somehow leaders, Oracle’s even, and we don’t grasp internally what it is an oligarchic class is finally about or how venal and morally bankrupt they are.

We need to recover the language of class warfare to grasp what is happening to us and we need to shatter this self-delusion that somehow, if as Obama says we work hard enough and study hard enough, we can be one of them.

The fact is the people who created the economic mess that we’re in, were the best educated people in the country Larry Summers former president of Harvard and others the issue is not education, the issue is greed.

I, unfortunately had the experience of being shipped off to a private boarding school at the age of 10 as a scholarship student, I was one of sixteen kids on scholarship, and I lived among the super-rich and I watched them, and I think much of my hatred of authority and my repugnance for the ruling elite comes from having been among them for so long.

Yeah, people don’t understand the elite schools, even at the high school level. That they get the kids excellent education, but if they learn the whole culture of hundreds or thousands of years of how to rule right, and it’s a deep rich understanding of it, not only that but they, and George Bush is a perfect example of that, not so much an example of deep rich understanding no, but of how you know affirmative action for the rich operates.

I came, certainly on my mother’s side of the family, from lower working-class when people, one of my uncles lived in a trailer in Maine, and certainly people with no means and I would juxtapose the world I was in with that world and it was very clear that it wasn’t about intelligence or aptitude.

The fact is if you’re poor you only get one chance. If you’re wealthy like GW Bush you get chance, after chance, after chance, after chance. So you’re a C student at Andover and you go to Yale, and you go to Harvard Business School, and you’re AWOL from your National Guard unit, and you’re a cokehead, it doesn’t really matter. You don’t even really have a job till you’re 40 and you become President of the United States.

So that was what was particularly insidious how those small tight elite oligarchic circles perpetuated themselves and promoted mediocrity, because many of these people like Bush are very mediocre human beings, at the expense of the rest of us. How with money they Game the System.

Of course now we live in an oligarchic state where we’ve been rendered utterly powerless. As are the judiciary, the legislative, the executive branch is all subservient to an oligarchic corporate elite and the press is owned by an oligarchic corporate elite which makes sure that any critique of them is never broadcast over the airwaves either.
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

Lurk

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #724 on: October 02, 2018, 01:39:49 PM »
[ insert this here: September 28, 2018 Royal Commissioner Kenneth Hayne has identified “greed” as the key reason banks and other financial institutions repeatedly broke the law …. and repeated decisions by the ASIC and the Prudential Regulation Authority not to properly punish them. https://theconversation.com/banking-royal-commissions-damning-report-things-are-so-bad-that-new-laws-might-not-help-104058 ]


Chris Hedges con’t

Because the whole notion of the free market, laissez faire Capitalism and Globalization is a very thin rationale for unmitigated greed by a tiny oligarchic elite and they have made sure that that ideology is taught in universities across the country and people especially economists, (and engineers, journalists, marketers, tech heads, scientists and more) to deviate from that core ideology have been pushed aside and become pariahs instead.

And yet the driving ethos of that ideology is really to justify the hoarding of immense amounts of wealth by a very tiny percentage of you know the upper ruling class that’s what it is. It means the whole lie of globalization perpetuated by people who popularize it, like Tom Friedman, has already been exposed as a lie. I mean the idea that it’s going to lift all of us up and create a new vibrant middle class with luxury electric Teslas and no more carbon pollution and end to global warming and SLR and you know a well compensated working-class families in the third world … making iPhones for Apple in China, I mean all of it’s been exposed as lies.

In that sense the ideology serves the system. The Intellectual Class, the Universities as well coalesce unconsciously subconsciously to serve the system. Those economists whose voices are heard who get tenure, serve the system and those who don’t serve the system don’t get tenure, and don’t have a job on MSNBC or at the NYTs. Scientists won’t get ahead at MIT or at NASA or at Columbia unless they are somehow serving the ideology system, at some level or other.

I think that’s extremely true, I mean we don’t live in a genuine free-market society. We live in a society where corporations that will loot the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve and are bailed out by the taxpayer and yet that fact of a kind of corporate socialism for corporations is ignored and yet you know it is and that’s dangerous because there’s an utter disconnect from the language that we use to describe our economic system and the reality of our economic system.

Which is essentially a system where corporations owned and operated by an oligarchy of elites who have become predators on government and taxpayer money and we’re all going to pay for it.

.....................

One way we're going to pay for it is Climate Change, now and forever unless ......................
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #725 on: October 02, 2018, 10:31:34 PM »
Beam at wsws has an analysis of Tooze's book about the 2008 crisis, damns with faint praise:

"[Tooze] makes an important analysis of the operations of the global financial system"

but

"as a liberal, whose outlook does not go beyond the framework of the capitalist order, he regards the free market and the profit system as the only possible form of society"

"the incessant mantra of the spokespeople of the financial industry had been free markets and light touch regulation, what they were now demanding was the mobilization of all the resources of the state to save society’s financial infrastructure" [Tooze]

"contrary to the assumption of 2012–2013, the crisis was not in fact over. What we face now is not repetition but mutation and metastasis … the financial and economic crisis of 2007–2012 morphed between 2013 and 2017 into a comprehensive and geopolitical crisis of the post-cold war order." [Tooze]

" when another financial crisis erupts ... it will take place in conditions where geopolitical tensions and conflicts are far more intense"

"Though it is hardly a secret that we inhabit a world dominated by business oligopolies, during the crisis and its aftermath this reality and its implications for the priority of government stood nakedly exposed. It is an unpalatable and explosive truth that democratic politics on both sides of the Atlantic has choked on." [Tooze]

"elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy." [Schauble]

"the future of America’s dominance as the financial centre of the world" [Schumer re Glass-Steagall repeal]

"the questions that we have asked about 1914 ... their analogues are also the questions we ask about 2008 and its aftermath" [Tooze]

Beam replies with Trotsky:

"The War of 1914 is the most colossal breakdown in history of an economic system destroyed by its own inherent contradictions."

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/09/22/tooz-s22.html

sidd

oren

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #726 on: October 02, 2018, 11:40:18 PM »
The 2008 crisis never really ended. It was all loaded into central banks balance sheets who bailed out the banks, large corporations and the wealthy and monetized the national debt.

Lurk

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Lurk

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #728 on: October 04, 2018, 02:33:26 PM »
ROFL

The problem is the solution: Politically impossible? Change the political structure. Change to sustainable governance. Can’t be done? Too bad. You have no choice.

Choose: sustainability or ELE/collapse. And please do note Mollison’s words:
While the problems are increasingly complex, the solutions remain embarrassingly simple.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/01/unforced-variations-jan-2013/comment-page-4/#comment-314611
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #729 on: October 10, 2018, 12:02:11 AM »
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-09/security-that-triggered-a-recession-reworked-to-green-the-earth?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_medium=social&utm_content=business&utm_source=twitter&cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business


What an excellent pathway. I'm excited that in a couple decades I'll be reading about the misappropriation and abuse of climate change securities. billions of dollars once again going into the pockets of wall street.  The good news is that the situation will be dire enough that the bankers will actually be punished, but not from the government.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #730 on: October 10, 2018, 07:29:04 AM »
Neven in another thread

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg176325.html#msg176325

which i shall parafrase a little:

"But if we don't break the vicious cycle of misery for wealth and power, everything is meaningless and a waste of time."

Gluttony for food or sensual pleasure is excoriated, but gluttony for wealth and power is revered in this strange and terrible world view. Here is Hamilton Nolan echoing Hunter Thompson on a conference for the ubermensch in Vegas:

"Rich people go to Vegas to spend money. Really rich people go to Vegas to learn how to make money."

"where the hedge fund industry gathers to talk about money and politics, all while voraciously sucking its own dick. If you have ever wondered whether there really is a cabal of elites plotting in private to rule the world, wonder no more. Here they are. "

" younger hedge fund worker ants were assigned to sit at coffee tables and pitch their ideas to potential investors, like an awful version of speed dating in which the only thing you could discuss is “structured credit.” All of the younger men looked like Jared Kushner, and all the younger women looked like Ivanka Trump might look if she had to work 14-hour days"

"Just steps away was the official SALT Conference/ BDO Shoe Shine area, where you could gaze at that Mclaren and browse Bloomberg on your phone without making eye contact with the two women and one black man who were there shining shoes. "

"Television is for poor people. With the average net worth in this building, the television shows come to them. "

"There is good reason to be suspicious of the Democrats and other allegedly righteous types who appear at a hedge fund conference. "

"But anyone can understand these people if you can grasp one thing: When the money gets big enough, finance and economics and politics are all the same thing. They are ways to measure risk. When you run five or ten or a hundred billion dollars, your overriding concern in life is that pile of money—growing it, yes, but, more fundamentally, preserving it. Geopolitics therefore become just another business risk to be measured alongside interest rates and consumer trends, and judged based on the threat it poses to your money. Climate change? A risk. War in North Korea? A risk. Donald Trump’s insanity? A risk. What normal people think of in moral or ideological terms, those who control all the world’s wealth think of simply in terms of risk. Almost anything can be tolerated, if it allows them to make more money with less risk. This is the logic of capitalism. "

"you find a governing philosophy that cares nothing for humanity. "

“The rich people in this room—you don’t wanna live in a barbed wire enclosure in your McMansion like they do in Latin America. So we gotta fix this problem.”

"What they cannot stand to give up is power. "

"What they are not capable of is admitting that in order for the public as a whole to win, the hedge fund class may have to sacrifice more than just the checks they write at the annual Hamptons charity balls. They may have to sacrifice power. That, I’m afraid, is unthinkable. To be very rich is to have the luxury of constructing a plausible theory of morality that allows you to hold on to everything you have."

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/hell-is-empty-and-all-the-hedge-fund-managers-are-at-th-1795429824

sidd

etienne

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #731 on: October 10, 2018, 07:31:02 AM »
ROFL

The problem is the solution: Politically impossible? Change the political structure. Change to sustainable governance. Can’t be done? Too bad. You have no choice.

Choose: sustainability or ELE/collapse. And please do note Mollison’s words:
While the problems are increasingly complex, the solutions remain embarrassingly simple.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/01/unforced-variations-jan-2013/comment-page-4/#comment-314611
There is a joke that says that if housing is too expensive in your area, you should ask the governement to increase profit taxes applied on private companies. Easy solutions are often what political extreems suggest.

Sleepy

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #732 on: October 11, 2018, 11:21:05 AM »
A snippet from this interview with George Monbiot from last year:
https://youtu.be/13FRO2hNt70?t=1

Edit; also adding his own explanation from yesterday:
4 reasons for using climate breakdown, not climate change:
1. It better conveys the extent of the problem
2. People don't say "So what? The climate's always breaking down"
3. It makes an implicit connection with the impact on our minds
4. It suggests that we can fix it.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 11:32:04 AM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #733 on: October 12, 2018, 06:55:29 AM »
The Finance Curse: How the City of London screws the nation and the world:

"once a financial sector grows above an optimal size and beyond its useful roles, it begins to harm the country that hosts it"

"City of London has inflicted a cumulative £4.5tn hit on the British economy from 1995-2015. That is worth around two-and-a-half years’ economic output, "

"Managers often found that the best way to maximise the owners’ wealth was not to make better widgets and sprockets or to find new cures for malaria, but to indulge in the sugar rush of financial engineering, to tease out more profits from businesses that are already doing well. Social purpose be damned. As all this happened, inequality rose, financial crises became more common and economic growth fell "

"Our open arms to the world’s dirty money is corrupting our politics, and it is puffing up our housing markets, penalising the young, the poor and the weak. It is all deepening the finance curse."

Article at :

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/05/the-finance-curse-how-the-outsized-power-of-the-city-of-london-makes-britain-poorer

paper at:

http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/SPERI-The-UKs-Finance-Curse-Costs-and-Processes.pdf

The paper has numbers on corresponding costs to the USA:

"The data reports a much more pronounced effect than the earlier application of this
method to the United States (Epstein and Montecino, 2016), which identified costs
of $22,300 billion between 1990 and 2023, or slightly more than one year’s worth of
2018 US GDP."

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #734 on: October 21, 2018, 06:00:00 PM »
Here’s a fun game.

Crypts Diggin’ (@KrisLigman) 10/19/18, 7:59 PM
Hey I just published my new game, You Are Jeff Bezos. It is a game where you are Jeff Bezos and your only goal is to spend all his f**king money
https://twitter.com/krisligman/status/1053435599581933568

You Are Jeff Bezos by Kris Ligman
https://direkris.itch.io/you-are-jeff-bezos
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #735 on: October 29, 2018, 04:31:32 AM »
When the return on investment is so huge, how can we control markets in politicians ?

"firms lobbying for this provision have a return in excess of $220 for every $1 spent on lobbying, or 22,000%"

Even the mob doesn't get that kinda vigorish.

open access.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1375082

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #736 on: October 30, 2018, 03:16:13 PM »
Things can change:

Why NYU is making its medical school tuition-free
NYU announced in August it would be covering tuition for all of its medical students
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-nyu-is-making-its-medical-school-tuition-free-2018-10-30
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #737 on: November 01, 2018, 07:39:04 AM »
This strikes me as a seriously bad idea: Fed to loosen rules on banks under 700B US$ assets:

I remember the savings and loan thing, when precisely these smaller banks went hog wild. Black put almost a thousand bankers in jail back then, in the day when bankers actually went to jail.

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/414105-fed-releases-plan-to-loosen-rules-for-major-us-banks

sidd

Red

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #738 on: November 04, 2018, 12:29:55 PM »
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/03/a-sound-ecological-policy-cannot-be-achieved-within-a-capitalist-framework/
We share this planet; we do not own it.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO HELP THE PLANET TODAY?
Victor Wallis: It was not widely covered in the corporate media, but there was very good coverage on the independent Democracy Now! program, whose host, Amy Goodman, spent a week in and around Bonn during the recent international conference, and visited some of the occupiers in their tree-houses. Singer/songwriter David Rovics has just now posted a tribute, in narrative and song, to the forest-protectors and to the journalist Steffen Meyn who died tragically while attempting to cover their story.

CS: How do you characterize the struggle? Are there decisive similarities with, for example, the battles against oil pipelines in North America?

VW: It is a classic case of confrontation between a big corporation and people trying to save a priceless ecosystem. There is a definite parallel with the clashes in North America, including especially the more recent battle over the Dakota Access Pipeline, in which government forces intervened decisively on the side of the corporation.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #739 on: November 06, 2018, 08:10:33 AM »
Capitalism in action: markets in information about you. But, unfortunately, you cant participate, except as product. The Koch brothers are buying and selling.

https://www.salon.com/2018/11/05/koch-brothers-are-watching-you-and-new-documents-expose-how-much-they-know/

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AbruptSLR

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #740 on: November 11, 2018, 07:59:53 PM »
The Finance Curse: How the City of London screws the nation and the world:
….

Interesting information about the role of Britain and the City of London in international finance:

Title: "The Spider's Web: Britain's Second Empire (Documentary)"



Extract: "At the demise of empire, City of London financial interests created a web of secrecy jurisdictions that captured wealth from across the globe and hid it in a web of offshore islands. Today, up to half of global offshore wealth is hidden in British jurisdictions and Britain and its dependencies are the largest global players in the world of international finance."

See also:

Title: "Lord Mayor of London"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Mayor_of_London

Extract: "The office of Mayor was instituted in 1189, the first holder of the office being Henry Fitz-Ailwin de Londonestone. The Mayor of the City of London has been elected by the City, rather than appointed by the Sovereign, ever since a Royal Charter providing for a Mayor was issued by King John in 1215. The title "Lord Mayor" came to be used after 1354, when it was granted to Thomas Legge (then serving his second of two terms) by King Edward III."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

TerryM

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #741 on: November 12, 2018, 06:25:25 AM »
Capitalism in action: markets in information about you. But, unfortunately, you cant participate, except as product. The Koch brothers are buying and selling.

https://www.salon.com/2018/11/05/koch-brothers-are-watching-you-and-new-documents-expose-how-much-they-know/

sidd
sidd
Your link illustrates the problems that I'm seeing integrating democracy with the computer age.


The Koch Brothers aren't the only ones possessing this technology, Cambridge Analytica and a thousand clones we never heard of have rendered the whole concept of participatory democracy as dated as piloting a Stanley Steamer on the autobahn.


We've discussed transitioning to a post capitalist society. Perhaps it's time to discuss transitioning to a post democratic society?
Terry


sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #742 on: November 12, 2018, 06:51:46 AM »
Re: "integrating democracy with the computer age. "

Wait, what ? Democracy was long ago defined as the rule of the mob, and the net is a good example. As usual, the only thing that changes is who pays the demagogues. And that, not much.

Re:"aren't the only ones possessing this technology"

Larry Ellison said a long time ago that privacy was over, get over it. That was true then and becomes truer by the day. I am aware of at least two dozen large commercial data providers  who provide integrated data dumps on any individual you care to name dead or alive, worldwide, given rudimentary initial data. Not to speak of the state level databases, or criminal actors. All are accessible for the right price. Why do you think Google has a China plan ? That data is irresistible.

One has to jump thru so many hoops to maintain any level of privacy, it's just ridiculous. I am fortunate in that i am quite familiar with the internet and know the many, many steps involved. But Joe Blow on the street only has a slight understanding of the many ways his behaviour is sliced and diced and bought and sold, and is too busy surviving to care.

Re: "post capitalist, post democratic society"

How about "post information society ?" Get off the damn net. Talk to your neighbours forachange.

sidd