Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?  (Read 87053 times)

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4446
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 138
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #750 on: May 14, 2019, 07:04:34 AM »
Gaming medical insurance: An insurance shill recants, deconstructs industry arguments.

"The propaganda I used to churn out — and that my former colleagues still churn out — was intended to mislead, deceive and obscure the truth about the health care system in the United States."

"FUD:We can’t afford Medicare for All."

"Truth: We can’t afford the status quo. "

https://tarbell.org/2019/04/i-used-to-be-a-propagandist-for-insurance-companies-learn-the-four-truths-the-insurance-industry-doesnt-want-americans-to-see/

sidd

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4446
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 138
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #751 on: May 14, 2019, 07:16:37 AM »
Want to know the law of the land ? it will cost you

" States have struck deals with legal publishers, the article said, that have effectively privatized the law."

"the question is whether annotations commissioned and approved by the state may be copyrighted."

"judicial opinions cannot be copyrighted."

"The annotations include descriptions of judicial decisions interpreting the statutes. Only a very bad lawyer would fail to consult them in determining the meaning of a statute."

" Georgia has a law on the books making sodomy a crime. An annotation tells the reader that the law has been held unconstitutional ..."

“You go to the annotations, which leads you to the court decisions, where the judges actually tell you what the words mean.”

“The annotations clearly have authoritative weight in explicating and establishing the meaning and effect of Georgia’s laws,”

"The annotations were prepared by lawyers working for LexisNexis as part of a financial arrangement with the state. Georgia holds the copyright to the annotations, but the company has the right to sell them while paying the state a royalty."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/13/us/politics/georgia-official-code-copyright.html

The best justice money can buy, right ?

Meanwhile, the cops dont have to know the law to bust you.

" the Supreme Court ruled a “police officer’s reasonable mistake of law gives rise to reasonable suspicion that justifies a traffic stop under the Fourth Amendment.” "

"the court in Barnes felt otherwise, saying such errors of law — as pertain to affidavits like search warrants — can be excused for non-lawyers, like administrators and other officials, who draft such items."

https://www.mintpressnews.com/court-rules-police-dont-need-know-laws-enforce/217236/

Rule of law, did someone say ? Call me when you find it.

sidd

b_lumenkraft

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 776
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 153
  • Likes Given: 971
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #752 on: May 16, 2019, 01:14:31 PM »
Where Has Socialism Worked?


Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #753 on: May 16, 2019, 02:16:53 PM »
Where Has Socialism Worked?

Off the top of my head .... ?
UK
Iceland
Greenland
Scandinavia
Germany
France
All over Europe
Hong Kong
Singapore
Israel
Greece
Turkey
Iran
Iraq
South Africa
Canada
New Zealand
Australia
Indonesia
China
South Korea
Japan
Vietnam
Philippines
Taiwan
Mexico
Brazil
Argentina
Chile
Peru
Ecuador
Cuba
Russia
Uzbekistan
Poland
Samoa
Fiji
Kenya
Lebanon
India
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Bhutan
Nepal
Saudi Arabia
UAE
Qatar
Ukraine
Baltic States
Belorussia
Malayasia

I'm sure there are many more.

eg the United States of Amercia to varying degrees but they keep on scuttling it every time it starts working as intended.
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!

b_lumenkraft

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 776
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 153
  • Likes Given: 971
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #754 on: May 16, 2019, 02:23:18 PM »
There is no country in the world without socialism. That's a fact.

Even in the US, there are plenty of examples. Socialism is a financing scheme for services needed in a society more than a political ideology.

Shared Humanity

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3362
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 139
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #755 on: May 17, 2019, 05:22:47 PM »
There is no country in the world without socialism. That's a fact.

Even in the US, there are plenty of examples. Socialism is a financing scheme for services needed in a society more than a political ideology.

The very creation of the nation state results in socialism as the state pursues the common good. Ayn Rand proponents would have you believe that absolute personal freedom without constraints in the pursuit of self interest is the perfect state for man. Hobbes more accurately characterized life in this state of nature as "nasty, brutish and short."

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #756 on: May 17, 2019, 06:26:55 PM »






Those are social programs in different types of social democracies.

Socialism is strictly an economic concept.  Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.  Cuba is the closest country to living, breathing socialism. The vast majority of Cubans decide the outcomes of their labor through cooperative ownership of their workplace, or through state ran enterprises which are ran by a bureaucracy appointed by different democratic mechanisms.

I'm a Canadian and there is no way this country is socialist. Even the thought of unionizing (which only affords me minor concessions with the boss man) would put many firms packing and moving to Mexico or Asia. If you voted in a party that would nationalize an industry, especially a multinational corporation, then you would have the the full brunt of every single lawyer behind every single trade agreement, the WTO, IMF, diplomats, corporate lawyers, and if you get too pesky the CIA and the United States Armed Forces, set out completely destroy any chances of public ownership of existing capitalist enterprises

workers have absolutely zero democratic control over their economy.

Infrastructure programs like roads, airports, ports, utilities, etc.  are not "socialist".  They exist to provide the necessary infrastructure to support capitalist economic development. It just happens to be convenient that these programs are mostly paid from income taxes of the working class, instead of the businesses themselves.  If infrastructure was a "socialist" program, then indigenous communities in Canada would have access to clean drinking water.

Healthcare programs are not "socialist".  They exist to provide a healthy workforce. Once again using the income of mostly working people to insure they're ready and able to work.  If healthcare was a "socialist" program, 50,000 of mostly poor people wouldn't have died from opioid overdoses in America last year.


Sure, social programs are an incredibly important part of our society. Without them we would be barbaric. But until social programs exist for the emancipated workers, then they exist to provide a healthy and ready workforce for capitalists, with the added benefit that social programs quell any motivation to bring out the guillotines.

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #757 on: May 18, 2019, 02:41:03 AM »
Socialism is strictly an economic concept.  Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.

Theoretically yes, that's true. But in the real world, when "socialism/socialist" is being used a damaging pejorative term and an attack on specific Policies or Political leaders or to block rational action for Climate change the "Socialism" means something else entirely.

Therefore it's important to keep in mind the context and the framing of how the word is being used/misused. And why it is.
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!

b_lumenkraft

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 776
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 153
  • Likes Given: 971
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #758 on: May 18, 2019, 05:51:23 AM »
Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production

No, this is communism.

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #759 on: May 18, 2019, 05:42:57 PM »
Socialism is strictly an economic concept.  Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.

Theoretically yes, that's true. But in the real world, when "socialism/socialist" is being used a damaging pejorative term and an attack on specific Policies or Political leaders or to block rational action for Climate change the "Socialism" means something else entirely.

Therefore it's important to keep in mind the context and the framing of how the word is being used/misused. And why it is.

Sure, we can take context in account when interpreting what mainstream discourse is saying, but that's not what this thread is for.  This thread is for discussing economics, so I think that a forum full a thinkers would be able to discuss economics in real terms, rather than lazily adopting mainstream language, however wrong it may be.

You're falling for an incredibly effective propaganda campaign. It's an extension of McCarthyism and Cold War propaganda. But the tactics have changed substantially. The Red Scare is no longer effective since the fall of the Soviet Union and the threat of nuclear war is gone.  Young people have no memory of those events and are now politically active.
So how do you make sure this new political class doesn't become socialist. If they were "real socialist", the rich would be shitting their pants, and we would be seeing a stronger reaction from the wealthy.  So instead, the powerful have twisted the term into a completely different meaning.

Socialism is now.... Liberalism. Health care, infrastructure, higher taxes. Social programs within a capitalist economy is literally the definition of liberalism.
Now, "real socialists" are described as far-left radicals that are violent, angry, naive, stupid, destructive, anti-social, nazis, fascists. Don't associate yourself with them.  They are no good. Last thing we need is people actually willing to take power from the rich, so here's some crumbs: healthcare, roads, carbon tax, electoral reform, and a gold star that says "socialist" on it. Just stay in your place!

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #760 on: May 18, 2019, 06:02:49 PM »
Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production

No, this is communism.

?

Communism is the final stage after a socialist society. It's where every individual has been fully emancipated, and work is done by need and ability. This utopian society is something far far far away in the future. And it's incredibly difficult to envision.
The closest example of communism would be pre-agrarian egalitarian societies, small groups of people equally distributing work, and worked as much as necessary. Many indigenous societies that were genocided by colonialists actually practiced something very close to communism! Cool! Too bad we murdered them, rapped them, enslaved them, and any living members today are forced into destitute reservations where they get to experience poverty for the rest of their lives! Capitalism wins!

Socialism is the necessary step to communism. Because there's no lever in the catacombs of society that is conveniently labeled "utopia". It's not something that happens overnight. It requires struggle and effort to achieve utopia. Socialism is that transition.

Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.  It uses a democratically elected bureaucracy that organizes the economy that is in the best benefit for it's citizens, rather than capitalist state bureaucracy that organizes the economy that achieves the greatest profits for the capitalist class. This is not a controversial statement. I'm not sure why you are disagreeing with me. Does socialism actually mean something else? was there a secret meeting where 19th century economic thinkers rose from the dead and decided that socialism means something completely different?

b_lumenkraft

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 776
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 153
  • Likes Given: 971
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #761 on: May 18, 2019, 08:13:27 PM »
Yes, in a historical/philosophical context you are right.

But in a modern American context, socialism is used for politics that would be described as social democratic in Europe (i.e. basic infrastructure (healthcare, internet, water, power, etc) should be in public hand, there should be a robust welfare state, strong measures against inequality via taxing, strong regulations for customer and environment protection, etc,). Bernie Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist, he has no intention to expropriate the means of production though. His definition of socialism allows for a free market in most branches of the economy.

Bernie Sanders:
Quote
"So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don't believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal."

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #762 on: May 18, 2019, 08:31:59 PM »
Yes, in a historical/philosophical context you are right.




It's not a historical/philosophical context though!!!
Cuba is an existing socialist state.  In fact, it has one of the most impressive climate change policies in the world! Which can be credited to Socialism! And against all odds! Considering the most powerful nation of world, The United States of America, has imposed decades long sanctions, committed hundreds of assassination attempts on its leaders, and even violently invaded the country!

What does climate change action look like in socialist state?

Quote
Irma lent new urgency to a plan, called Tarea Vida, or Project Life, adopted last spring by Cuba’s Council of Ministers. A decade in the making, the program bans construction of new homes in threatened coastal areas, mandates relocating people from communities doomed by rising sea levels, calls for an overhaul of the country’s agricultural system to shift crop production away from saltwater-contaminated areas, and spells out the need to shore up coastal defenses, including by restoring degraded habitat. “The overarching idea,” says Salabarría Fernández, “is to increase the resilience of vulnerable communities.”
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/cuba-embarks-100-year-plan-protect-itself-climate-change



Quote

ELEVEN TASKS INCLUDED IN STATE PLAN "TAREA VIDA"

TASK 1: Identify and implement actions and projects to adapt to climate change, of a comprehensive, ongoing nature, needed to reduce existing vulnerability in the 15 identified priority zones. To be considered, to determine the order of these actions, are the population threatened, their physical safety and food security, and the development of tourism.

TASK 2: Implement legal norms needed to execute the state plan, as well as assure their strict enforcement, with particular attention to measures directed toward vulnerability of constructed properties, prioritizing threatened coastal communities.

TASK 3: Conserve, maintain, and recover the Cuban archipelago's sandy beaches, prioritizing those urbanized for tourist use and reducing the structural vulnerability of constructed properties.

TASK 4: Assure the availability and efficient use of water as part of confronting drought, on the basis of technology for conservation and satisfying the demands of locations. Improve water infrastructure and its maintenance, while taking action to measure the efficient and productive use of water.

TASK 5: Direct reforestation toward providing maximum protection of soils and water in terms of both quantity and quality, as well as the recovery of the most affected mangroves. Prioritize reservoirs, canals, and the regulatory banks of tributaries leading to the island's principal bays and coasts.

TASK 6: Stop deterioration, renovate, and protect coral reefs throughout the archipelago, with priority for those bordering the insular platform, and protect urbanized beaches used for tourist purposes. Avoid over-fishing of species that benefit corals.

TASK 7: Maintain, and add to plans, territorial and urban land use stipulations that emerged from the Macro-project on Dangers and Vulnerability of Coastal Zones 2050-2100, as well as Studies of Dangers, Vulnerability, and Risks in the disaster preparedness effort. Employ this information as an early warning to make decisions.

           

TASK 8: Implement and supervise implementation of climate change adaptation and mitigation measures, which emerge from sector policies in programs, plans, and projects linked to food security, renewable energy, energy efficiency, land use, fishing, agriculture, health, tourism, construction, transport, industry, and the comprehensive management of forests.

TASK 9: Strengthen monitoring systems, vigilance, and early warning plans to systematically evaluate the condition and quality of coastal zones, water, drought, forests, as well as human and plant health.

TASK l0: Prioritize measures and actions to increase risk perception, understanding of, and participation by the entire population in confronting climate change, and a culture that promotes water conservation.


TASK 11: Manage and use international financial resources available, both those from global and regional climate funds, as well as bilateral sources, to make investments, carry out actions, and implement projects related to the tasks outlined in the state plan.
http://en.granma.cu/cuba/2018-04-12/climate-change-brings-transformations-in-cuba





But in a modern American context, socialism is used for politics that would be described as social democratic in Europe (i.e. basic infrastructure (healthcare, internet, water, power, etc) should be in public hand, there should be a robust welfare state, strong measures against inequality via taxing, strong regulations for customer and environment protection, etc,). Bernie Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist, he has no intention to expropriate the means of production though. His definition of socialism allows for a free market in most branches of the economy.

Bernie Sanders:
Quote
"So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don't believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal."

Just because an American is fucking up the definition of the word, we have to immediately assume his new definition? That doesn't make any sense! So let me get this straight... Social democracy is now socialism, socialism is now communism, and communism is actually.... super communism? And what is social democracy then? Neoliberalism? What's going on!! why can't we just use the terms the way they're meant to be!

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #763 on: May 18, 2019, 08:55:03 PM »
Socialism is strictly an economic concept.  Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.

Theoretically yes, that's true. But in the real world, when "socialism/socialist" is being used a damaging pejorative term and an attack on specific Policies or Political leaders or to block rational action for Climate change the "Socialism" means something else entirely.

Therefore it's important to keep in mind the context and the framing of how the word is being used/misused. And why it is.

Sure, we can take context in account when interpreting what mainstream discourse is saying, but that's not what this thread is for.  This thread is for discussing economics, so I think that a forum full a thinkers would be able to discuss economics in real terms, rather than lazily adopting mainstream language, however wrong it may be.

Jeez calm down, no need to make a war out of it. This isn't ASIF University and this isn't the Economics Dept Tutorial Room being run by a resident PhD student. It's just a thread on a forum.

You're turning a couple of tongue in cheek humourous "political" comments into hard assed Economics and declaring them wanting and not good enough. Chill.

That being said, the term socialism is has been utterly abused and debased in modern language - that just the way it is. Meanings of words are constantly changing all the time to varying degrees and then you have jargon that fits more specific meanings in certain contexts.

The discussion you entered was a mainstream modern day political orientated discussion partly taking the piss out of the hyperbolic ravings against "socialism" in the US, especially  by Trump and co (imho) where everything unwanted is declared "socialism" to be defended with arms if necessary. A word/idea misused by people who do not have much of clue about anything, and certainly are not honest nor genuine but ideological extremists instead.

There's more than enough "space" in this thread to discuss both hard arsed economic definitions and allsoran mainstream political versions of the same words be they "capitalism" or "socialism" imho.

And contrary to your assertion/s I am not falling for anything. ;)

Quote
You're falling for an incredibly effective propaganda campaign. It's an extension of McCarthyism and Cold War propaganda. But the tactics have changed substantially. The Red Scare is no longer effective since the fall of the Soviet Union and the threat of nuclear war is gone.  Young people have no memory of those events and are now politically active.
So how do you make sure this new political class doesn't become socialist. If they were "real socialist", the rich would be shitting their pants, and we would be seeing a stronger reaction from the wealthy.  So instead, the powerful have twisted the term into a completely different meaning.

Socialism is now.... Liberalism. Health care, infrastructure, higher taxes. Social programs within a capitalist economy is literally the definition of liberalism.
Now, "real socialists" are described as far-left radicals that are violent, angry, naive, stupid, destructive, anti-social, nazis, fascists. Don't associate yourself with them.  They are no good. Last thing we need is people actually willing to take power from the rich, so here's some crumbs: healthcare, roads, carbon tax, electoral reform, and a gold star that says "socialist" on it. Just stay in your place!
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #764 on: May 18, 2019, 09:02:34 PM »
PS is there a virus infecting the ASIF lately?

Because the Bullshit I have been accused of believing, thinking, of wanting, and saying lately is completely off the scale.


Ah, now it makes sense The Scorpio Full Moon
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!

magnamentis

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2070
    • View Profile
    • Philosophy Ethics Numerology Mikrocirkulation Vaskular Therapie Gesundheit Blut Gesundheit Schmerzen Multiple Sklerose Diabetes Immunsystem Fibromyalgia Modular Mobile Computing iOS Software OSX Android Custom Rom Rooted
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #765 on: May 18, 2019, 09:07:01 PM »
And contrary to your assertion/s I am not falling for anything. ;)

calling you falling for anything is like calling me being part of the rest LOL :D :D :D :D:D

http://magnamentis.com
Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #766 on: May 18, 2019, 09:37:05 PM »
Jeez calm down, no need to make a war out of it. This isn't ASIF University and this isn't the Economics Dept Tutorial Room being run by a resident PhD student. It's just a thread on a forum.

You're turning a couple of tongue in cheek humourous "political" comments into hard assed Economics and declaring them wanting and not good enough. Chill.

That being said, the term socialism is has been utterly abused and debased in modern language - that just the way it is. Meanings of words are constantly changing all the time to varying degrees and then you have jargon that fits more specific meanings in certain contexts.

The discussion you entered was a mainstream modern day political orientated discussion partly taking the piss out of the hyperbolic ravings against "socialism" in the US, especially  by Trump and co (imho) where everything unwanted is declared "socialism" to be defended with arms if necessary. A word/idea misused by people who do not have much of clue about anything, and certainly are not honest nor genuine but ideological extremists instead.

There's more than enough "space" in this thread to discuss both hard arsed economic definitions and allsoran mainstream political versions of the same words be they "capitalism" or "socialism" imho.

And contrary to your assertion/s I am not falling for anything. ;)



You don't need to be so defensive. You can only call something tongue in cheek when your audience knows the difference.
This entire thread is filled with misconceptions, bias, and propaganda regarding socialism/communism. In fact, this entire forum has difficult time understanding basic economic concepts. 

Is it too much to ask for people to use the terms correctly, instead of using appropriated language by mainstream Media?

Would you do that for anything else?
Should we use the term "Enhanced Interrogation" instead of Torture, because that's what the CIA likes to call it?
Should we use the term "racially charged" instead of racism, because that's how the news likes to report it?
Should we use the term "weather system changes" instead of "climate change catastrophe", because that's what the deniers like to call it?



Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #767 on: May 18, 2019, 09:41:18 PM »
And contrary to your assertion/s I am not falling for anything. ;)

calling you falling for anything is like calling me being part of the rest LOL :D :D :D :D:D

that joke went right over my head - what have I missed? (if you want to fill me in) thx 
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!

magnamentis

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2070
    • View Profile
    • Philosophy Ethics Numerology Mikrocirkulation Vaskular Therapie Gesundheit Blut Gesundheit Schmerzen Multiple Sklerose Diabetes Immunsystem Fibromyalgia Modular Mobile Computing iOS Software OSX Android Custom Rom Rooted
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #768 on: May 18, 2019, 10:06:42 PM »
that joke went right over my head - what have I missed? (if you want to fill me in) thx

for the full story you'd have to read a bit up-thread and down-thread while since you took part in that thread i will probably remember ;)

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2643.msg199437.html#msg199437
http://magnamentis.com
Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #769 on: May 18, 2019, 10:19:54 PM »
Thx, got it now, yes I remember the thread but I missed that specific comment ... :D
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #770 on: May 18, 2019, 10:30:31 PM »
You don't need to be so defensive.

Pot kettle black seems appropriate.

Zizek, explaining something to you that I believe can help you and also back fill you in with the context of MY INTENTIONS and word usuage as only I know them with certainty, is not being defensive. Especially when filling the spaces with  :) :D ;D ;) at the same time

Being defensive is screaming fuck off and leave me alone or I'll swear at you! ;)   

Quote
You can only call something tongue in cheek when your audience knows the difference.

I do not have an "audience" zizek. It's not my audience anyway. In this specific instance I was posting a response to an audience of one ... b_lumenkraft. Anyone else who happened along is a coincidence not a planned strategy. OK?

By the time you showed up I had already left the stage mate. I am no Brexit Preacher.

Now, would like to buy a new Tesla by any chance? If you go to the right place you can pick one up for $44,000 Off the normal listed price.

Perhaps some Tesla shares then? Only $210 today - that bargain basement price will not last.
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #771 on: May 18, 2019, 11:10:52 PM »
My original post was correcting the difference between social democracy and socialism. This thread has a common trend of mixing up terms and misunderstanding economic concepts.  You and b_lumenkraft made the mistake of confusing terms, wittingly or not....
I provided some analysis as to why you may have done that, and why it's important to use the correct terminology. Instead of having a reasonable debate, you responded with "I know exactly what all this means, and it is YOU that is misinterpreting context. I made no mistake!"

What would you like me to do Lurk? I shouldn't correct economic misconceptions in the economics thread? I should just assume everyone is as super smart as you, and can make the distinction between social democracy and socialism? And that any misconceptions should be brushed off as CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT, Don't you understand Context!!!!!

b_lumenkraft

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 776
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 153
  • Likes Given: 971
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #772 on: Today at 06:11:17 AM »
Just because an American is fucking up the definition of the word, we have to immediately assume his new definition? That doesn't make any sense! So let me get this straight... Social democracy is now socialism, socialism is now communism, and communism is actually.... super communism? And what is social democracy then? Neoliberalism? What's going on!! why can't we just use the terms the way they're meant to be!

Well, Americans are fucking up the definition of this word since America is a thing i guess. I don't like that either. It's a function of scapegoating the left since in the US, there are two right-wing parties. There is no communistic/socialistic/social democratic party. Sometimes you have leftist candidates like Sanders, AOC, etc. and it's on them to define their policies in the American context and move the Overton window a bit.

I don't know how neoliberalism ended up in your list of leftist tendencies. It doesn't belong there though.


Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6561
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 337
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #773 on: Today at 08:14:56 AM »
I don't know how neoliberalism ended up in your list of leftist tendencies. It doesn't belong there though.

That's zizek's point. Definitions get jumbled up so much that we're not far from the point where neoliberalism would start to be seen as a leftist ideology.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

b_lumenkraft

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 776
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 153
  • Likes Given: 971
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #774 on: Today at 09:05:50 AM »
we're not far from the point where neoliberalism would start to be seen as a leftist ideology.

Over my dead body...

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4446
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 138
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #775 on: Today at 09:14:37 AM »
Re: " Definitions get jumbled up"

Yes. It is very important to be clear about what words mean. Else actual communication degenerates, which might be the goal for some.

sidd

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #776 on: Today at 09:38:20 AM »
Quote
Else actual communication degenerates, which might be the goal for some.

It most certainly is the case, for some. It's patently obvious several lack basic cooperative communication skills. Wanna see my list? The names of those who have already left have been crossed off.   ::)
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!