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Author Topic: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?  (Read 114183 times)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #750 on: May 16, 2019, 01:14:31 PM »
Where Has Socialism Worked?


ASILurker

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #751 on: May 16, 2019, 02:16:53 PM »
Where Has Socialism Worked?

Off the top of my head .... ?
UK
Iceland
Greenland
Scandinavia
Germany
France
All over Europe
Hong Kong
Singapore
Israel
Greece
Turkey
Iran
Iraq
South Africa
Canada
New Zealand
Australia
Indonesia
China
South Korea
Japan
Vietnam
Philippines
Taiwan
Mexico
Brazil
Argentina
Chile
Peru
Ecuador
Cuba
Russia
Uzbekistan
Poland
Samoa
Fiji
Kenya
Lebanon
India
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Bhutan
Nepal
Saudi Arabia
UAE
Qatar
Ukraine
Baltic States
Belorussia
Malayasia

I'm sure there are many more.

eg the United States of Amercia to varying degrees but they keep on scuttling it every time it starts working as intended.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #752 on: May 16, 2019, 02:23:18 PM »
There is no country in the world without socialism. That's a fact.

Even in the US, there are plenty of examples. Socialism is a financing scheme for services needed in a society more than a political ideology.

Shared Humanity

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #753 on: May 17, 2019, 05:22:47 PM »
There is no country in the world without socialism. That's a fact.

Even in the US, there are plenty of examples. Socialism is a financing scheme for services needed in a society more than a political ideology.

The very creation of the nation state results in socialism as the state pursues the common good. Ayn Rand proponents would have you believe that absolute personal freedom without constraints in the pursuit of self interest is the perfect state for man. Hobbes more accurately characterized life in this state of nature as "nasty, brutish and short."

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #754 on: May 17, 2019, 06:26:55 PM »






Those are social programs in different types of social democracies.

Socialism is strictly an economic concept.  Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.  Cuba is the closest country to living, breathing socialism. The vast majority of Cubans decide the outcomes of their labor through cooperative ownership of their workplace, or through state ran enterprises which are ran by a bureaucracy appointed by different democratic mechanisms.

I'm a Canadian and there is no way this country is socialist. Even the thought of unionizing (which only affords me minor concessions with the boss man) would put many firms packing and moving to Mexico or Asia. If you voted in a party that would nationalize an industry, especially a multinational corporation, then you would have the the full brunt of every single lawyer behind every single trade agreement, the WTO, IMF, diplomats, corporate lawyers, and if you get too pesky the CIA and the United States Armed Forces, set out completely destroy any chances of public ownership of existing capitalist enterprises

workers have absolutely zero democratic control over their economy.

Infrastructure programs like roads, airports, ports, utilities, etc.  are not "socialist".  They exist to provide the necessary infrastructure to support capitalist economic development. It just happens to be convenient that these programs are mostly paid from income taxes of the working class, instead of the businesses themselves.  If infrastructure was a "socialist" program, then indigenous communities in Canada would have access to clean drinking water.

Healthcare programs are not "socialist".  They exist to provide a healthy workforce. Once again using the income of mostly working people to insure they're ready and able to work.  If healthcare was a "socialist" program, 50,000 of mostly poor people wouldn't have died from opioid overdoses in America last year.


Sure, social programs are an incredibly important part of our society. Without them we would be barbaric. But until social programs exist for the emancipated workers, then they exist to provide a healthy and ready workforce for capitalists, with the added benefit that social programs quell any motivation to bring out the guillotines.

ASILurker

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #755 on: May 18, 2019, 02:41:03 AM »
Socialism is strictly an economic concept.  Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.

Theoretically yes, that's true. But in the real world, when "socialism/socialist" is being used a damaging pejorative term and an attack on specific Policies or Political leaders or to block rational action for Climate change the "Socialism" means something else entirely.

Therefore it's important to keep in mind the context and the framing of how the word is being used/misused. And why it is.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #756 on: May 18, 2019, 05:51:23 AM »
Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production

No, this is communism.

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #757 on: May 18, 2019, 05:42:57 PM »
Socialism is strictly an economic concept.  Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.

Theoretically yes, that's true. But in the real world, when "socialism/socialist" is being used a damaging pejorative term and an attack on specific Policies or Political leaders or to block rational action for Climate change the "Socialism" means something else entirely.

Therefore it's important to keep in mind the context and the framing of how the word is being used/misused. And why it is.

Sure, we can take context in account when interpreting what mainstream discourse is saying, but that's not what this thread is for.  This thread is for discussing economics, so I think that a forum full a thinkers would be able to discuss economics in real terms, rather than lazily adopting mainstream language, however wrong it may be.

You're falling for an incredibly effective propaganda campaign. It's an extension of McCarthyism and Cold War propaganda. But the tactics have changed substantially. The Red Scare is no longer effective since the fall of the Soviet Union and the threat of nuclear war is gone.  Young people have no memory of those events and are now politically active.
So how do you make sure this new political class doesn't become socialist. If they were "real socialist", the rich would be shitting their pants, and we would be seeing a stronger reaction from the wealthy.  So instead, the powerful have twisted the term into a completely different meaning.

Socialism is now.... Liberalism. Health care, infrastructure, higher taxes. Social programs within a capitalist economy is literally the definition of liberalism.
Now, "real socialists" are described as far-left radicals that are violent, angry, naive, stupid, destructive, anti-social, nazis, fascists. Don't associate yourself with them.  They are no good. Last thing we need is people actually willing to take power from the rich, so here's some crumbs: healthcare, roads, carbon tax, electoral reform, and a gold star that says "socialist" on it. Just stay in your place!

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #758 on: May 18, 2019, 06:02:49 PM »
Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production

No, this is communism.

?

Communism is the final stage after a socialist society. It's where every individual has been fully emancipated, and work is done by need and ability. This utopian society is something far far far away in the future. And it's incredibly difficult to envision.
The closest example of communism would be pre-agrarian egalitarian societies, small groups of people equally distributing work, and worked as much as necessary. Many indigenous societies that were genocided by colonialists actually practiced something very close to communism! Cool! Too bad we murdered them, rapped them, enslaved them, and any living members today are forced into destitute reservations where they get to experience poverty for the rest of their lives! Capitalism wins!

Socialism is the necessary step to communism. Because there's no lever in the catacombs of society that is conveniently labeled "utopia". It's not something that happens overnight. It requires struggle and effort to achieve utopia. Socialism is that transition.

Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.  It uses a democratically elected bureaucracy that organizes the economy that is in the best benefit for it's citizens, rather than capitalist state bureaucracy that organizes the economy that achieves the greatest profits for the capitalist class. This is not a controversial statement. I'm not sure why you are disagreeing with me. Does socialism actually mean something else? was there a secret meeting where 19th century economic thinkers rose from the dead and decided that socialism means something completely different?

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #759 on: May 18, 2019, 08:13:27 PM »
Yes, in a historical/philosophical context you are right.

But in a modern American context, socialism is used for politics that would be described as social democratic in Europe (i.e. basic infrastructure (healthcare, internet, water, power, etc) should be in public hand, there should be a robust welfare state, strong measures against inequality via taxing, strong regulations for customer and environment protection, etc,). Bernie Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist, he has no intention to expropriate the means of production though. His definition of socialism allows for a free market in most branches of the economy.

Bernie Sanders:
Quote
"So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don't believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal."

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #760 on: May 18, 2019, 08:31:59 PM »
Yes, in a historical/philosophical context you are right.




It's not a historical/philosophical context though!!!
Cuba is an existing socialist state.  In fact, it has one of the most impressive climate change policies in the world! Which can be credited to Socialism! And against all odds! Considering the most powerful nation of world, The United States of America, has imposed decades long sanctions, committed hundreds of assassination attempts on its leaders, and even violently invaded the country!

What does climate change action look like in socialist state?

Quote
Irma lent new urgency to a plan, called Tarea Vida, or Project Life, adopted last spring by Cuba’s Council of Ministers. A decade in the making, the program bans construction of new homes in threatened coastal areas, mandates relocating people from communities doomed by rising sea levels, calls for an overhaul of the country’s agricultural system to shift crop production away from saltwater-contaminated areas, and spells out the need to shore up coastal defenses, including by restoring degraded habitat. “The overarching idea,” says Salabarría Fernández, “is to increase the resilience of vulnerable communities.”
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/cuba-embarks-100-year-plan-protect-itself-climate-change



Quote

ELEVEN TASKS INCLUDED IN STATE PLAN "TAREA VIDA"

TASK 1: Identify and implement actions and projects to adapt to climate change, of a comprehensive, ongoing nature, needed to reduce existing vulnerability in the 15 identified priority zones. To be considered, to determine the order of these actions, are the population threatened, their physical safety and food security, and the development of tourism.

TASK 2: Implement legal norms needed to execute the state plan, as well as assure their strict enforcement, with particular attention to measures directed toward vulnerability of constructed properties, prioritizing threatened coastal communities.

TASK 3: Conserve, maintain, and recover the Cuban archipelago's sandy beaches, prioritizing those urbanized for tourist use and reducing the structural vulnerability of constructed properties.

TASK 4: Assure the availability and efficient use of water as part of confronting drought, on the basis of technology for conservation and satisfying the demands of locations. Improve water infrastructure and its maintenance, while taking action to measure the efficient and productive use of water.

TASK 5: Direct reforestation toward providing maximum protection of soils and water in terms of both quantity and quality, as well as the recovery of the most affected mangroves. Prioritize reservoirs, canals, and the regulatory banks of tributaries leading to the island's principal bays and coasts.

TASK 6: Stop deterioration, renovate, and protect coral reefs throughout the archipelago, with priority for those bordering the insular platform, and protect urbanized beaches used for tourist purposes. Avoid over-fishing of species that benefit corals.

TASK 7: Maintain, and add to plans, territorial and urban land use stipulations that emerged from the Macro-project on Dangers and Vulnerability of Coastal Zones 2050-2100, as well as Studies of Dangers, Vulnerability, and Risks in the disaster preparedness effort. Employ this information as an early warning to make decisions.

           

TASK 8: Implement and supervise implementation of climate change adaptation and mitigation measures, which emerge from sector policies in programs, plans, and projects linked to food security, renewable energy, energy efficiency, land use, fishing, agriculture, health, tourism, construction, transport, industry, and the comprehensive management of forests.

TASK 9: Strengthen monitoring systems, vigilance, and early warning plans to systematically evaluate the condition and quality of coastal zones, water, drought, forests, as well as human and plant health.

TASK l0: Prioritize measures and actions to increase risk perception, understanding of, and participation by the entire population in confronting climate change, and a culture that promotes water conservation.


TASK 11: Manage and use international financial resources available, both those from global and regional climate funds, as well as bilateral sources, to make investments, carry out actions, and implement projects related to the tasks outlined in the state plan.
http://en.granma.cu/cuba/2018-04-12/climate-change-brings-transformations-in-cuba





But in a modern American context, socialism is used for politics that would be described as social democratic in Europe (i.e. basic infrastructure (healthcare, internet, water, power, etc) should be in public hand, there should be a robust welfare state, strong measures against inequality via taxing, strong regulations for customer and environment protection, etc,). Bernie Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist, he has no intention to expropriate the means of production though. His definition of socialism allows for a free market in most branches of the economy.

Bernie Sanders:
Quote
"So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don't believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal."

Just because an American is fucking up the definition of the word, we have to immediately assume his new definition? That doesn't make any sense! So let me get this straight... Social democracy is now socialism, socialism is now communism, and communism is actually.... super communism? And what is social democracy then? Neoliberalism? What's going on!! why can't we just use the terms the way they're meant to be!

ASILurker

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #761 on: May 18, 2019, 08:55:03 PM »
Socialism is strictly an economic concept.  Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production.

Theoretically yes, that's true. But in the real world, when "socialism/socialist" is being used a damaging pejorative term and an attack on specific Policies or Political leaders or to block rational action for Climate change the "Socialism" means something else entirely.

Therefore it's important to keep in mind the context and the framing of how the word is being used/misused. And why it is.

Sure, we can take context in account when interpreting what mainstream discourse is saying, but that's not what this thread is for.  This thread is for discussing economics, so I think that a forum full a thinkers would be able to discuss economics in real terms, rather than lazily adopting mainstream language, however wrong it may be.

Jeez calm down, no need to make a war out of it. This isn't ASIF University and this isn't the Economics Dept Tutorial Room being run by a resident PhD student. It's just a thread on a forum.

You're turning a couple of tongue in cheek humourous "political" comments into hard assed Economics and declaring them wanting and not good enough. Chill.

That being said, the term socialism is has been utterly abused and debased in modern language - that just the way it is. Meanings of words are constantly changing all the time to varying degrees and then you have jargon that fits more specific meanings in certain contexts.

The discussion you entered was a mainstream modern day political orientated discussion partly taking the piss out of the hyperbolic ravings against "socialism" in the US, especially  by Trump and co (imho) where everything unwanted is declared "socialism" to be defended with arms if necessary. A word/idea misused by people who do not have much of clue about anything, and certainly are not honest nor genuine but ideological extremists instead.

There's more than enough "space" in this thread to discuss both hard arsed economic definitions and allsoran mainstream political versions of the same words be they "capitalism" or "socialism" imho.

And contrary to your assertion/s I am not falling for anything. ;)

Quote
You're falling for an incredibly effective propaganda campaign. It's an extension of McCarthyism and Cold War propaganda. But the tactics have changed substantially. The Red Scare is no longer effective since the fall of the Soviet Union and the threat of nuclear war is gone.  Young people have no memory of those events and are now politically active.
So how do you make sure this new political class doesn't become socialist. If they were "real socialist", the rich would be shitting their pants, and we would be seeing a stronger reaction from the wealthy.  So instead, the powerful have twisted the term into a completely different meaning.

Socialism is now.... Liberalism. Health care, infrastructure, higher taxes. Social programs within a capitalist economy is literally the definition of liberalism.
Now, "real socialists" are described as far-left radicals that are violent, angry, naive, stupid, destructive, anti-social, nazis, fascists. Don't associate yourself with them.  They are no good. Last thing we need is people actually willing to take power from the rich, so here's some crumbs: healthcare, roads, carbon tax, electoral reform, and a gold star that says "socialist" on it. Just stay in your place!

ASILurker

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #762 on: May 18, 2019, 09:02:34 PM »
PS is there a virus infecting the ASIF lately?

Because the Bullshit I have been accused of believing, thinking, of wanting, and saying lately is completely off the scale.


Ah, now it makes sense The Scorpio Full Moon - and a Moderator who doesn't like "work"
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 05:59:55 PM by Lurk »

magnamentis

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #763 on: May 18, 2019, 09:07:01 PM »
And contrary to your assertion/s I am not falling for anything. ;)

calling you falling for anything is like calling me being part of the rest LOL :D :D :D :D:D


zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #764 on: May 18, 2019, 09:37:05 PM »
Jeez calm down, no need to make a war out of it. This isn't ASIF University and this isn't the Economics Dept Tutorial Room being run by a resident PhD student. It's just a thread on a forum.

You're turning a couple of tongue in cheek humourous "political" comments into hard assed Economics and declaring them wanting and not good enough. Chill.

That being said, the term socialism is has been utterly abused and debased in modern language - that just the way it is. Meanings of words are constantly changing all the time to varying degrees and then you have jargon that fits more specific meanings in certain contexts.

The discussion you entered was a mainstream modern day political orientated discussion partly taking the piss out of the hyperbolic ravings against "socialism" in the US, especially  by Trump and co (imho) where everything unwanted is declared "socialism" to be defended with arms if necessary. A word/idea misused by people who do not have much of clue about anything, and certainly are not honest nor genuine but ideological extremists instead.

There's more than enough "space" in this thread to discuss both hard arsed economic definitions and allsoran mainstream political versions of the same words be they "capitalism" or "socialism" imho.

And contrary to your assertion/s I am not falling for anything. ;)



You don't need to be so defensive. You can only call something tongue in cheek when your audience knows the difference.
This entire thread is filled with misconceptions, bias, and propaganda regarding socialism/communism. In fact, this entire forum has difficult time understanding basic economic concepts. 

Is it too much to ask for people to use the terms correctly, instead of using appropriated language by mainstream Media?

Would you do that for anything else?
Should we use the term "Enhanced Interrogation" instead of Torture, because that's what the CIA likes to call it?
Should we use the term "racially charged" instead of racism, because that's how the news likes to report it?
Should we use the term "weather system changes" instead of "climate change catastrophe", because that's what the deniers like to call it?



ASILurker

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #765 on: May 18, 2019, 09:41:18 PM »
And contrary to your assertion/s I am not falling for anything. ;)

calling you falling for anything is like calling me being part of the rest LOL :D :D :D :D:D

that joke went right over my head - what have I missed? (if you want to fill me in) thx 

magnamentis

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #766 on: May 18, 2019, 10:06:42 PM »
that joke went right over my head - what have I missed? (if you want to fill me in) thx

for the full story you'd have to read a bit up-thread and down-thread while since you took part in that thread i will probably remember ;)

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2643.msg199437.html#msg199437

ASILurker

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #767 on: May 18, 2019, 10:30:31 PM »
You don't need to be so defensive.

Pot kettle black seems appropriate.

Zizek, explaining something to you that I believe can help you and also back fill you in with the context of MY INTENTIONS and word usuage as only I know them with certainty, is not being defensive. Especially when filling the spaces with  :) :D ;D ;) at the same time

Being defensive is screaming fuck off and leave me alone or I'll swear at you! ;)   

Quote
You can only call something tongue in cheek when your audience knows the difference.

I do not have an "audience" zizek. It's not my audience anyway. In this specific instance I was posting a response to an audience of one ... b_lumenkraft. Anyone else who happened along is a coincidence not a planned strategy. OK?

By the time you showed up I had already left the stage mate. I am no Brexit Preacher.

Now, would like to buy a new Tesla by any chance? If you go to the right place you can pick one up for $44,000 Off the normal listed price.

Perhaps some Tesla shares then? Only $210 today - that bargain basement price will not last.

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #768 on: May 18, 2019, 11:10:52 PM »
My original post was correcting the difference between social democracy and socialism. This thread has a common trend of mixing up terms and misunderstanding economic concepts.  You and b_lumenkraft made the mistake of confusing terms, wittingly or not....
I provided some analysis as to why you may have done that, and why it's important to use the correct terminology. Instead of having a reasonable debate, you responded with "I know exactly what all this means, and it is YOU that is misinterpreting context. I made no mistake!"

What would you like me to do Lurk? I shouldn't correct economic misconceptions in the economics thread? I should just assume everyone is as super smart as you, and can make the distinction between social democracy and socialism? And that any misconceptions should be brushed off as CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT, Don't you understand Context!!!!!

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #769 on: May 19, 2019, 06:11:17 AM »
Just because an American is fucking up the definition of the word, we have to immediately assume his new definition? That doesn't make any sense! So let me get this straight... Social democracy is now socialism, socialism is now communism, and communism is actually.... super communism? And what is social democracy then? Neoliberalism? What's going on!! why can't we just use the terms the way they're meant to be!

Well, Americans are fucking up the definition of this word since America is a thing i guess. I don't like that either. It's a function of scapegoating the left since in the US, there are two right-wing parties. There is no communistic/socialistic/social democratic party. Sometimes you have leftist candidates like Sanders, AOC, etc. and it's on them to define their policies in the American context and move the Overton window a bit.

I don't know how neoliberalism ended up in your list of leftist tendencies. It doesn't belong there though.


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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #770 on: May 19, 2019, 08:14:56 AM »
I don't know how neoliberalism ended up in your list of leftist tendencies. It doesn't belong there though.

That's zizek's point. Definitions get jumbled up so much that we're not far from the point where neoliberalism would start to be seen as a leftist ideology.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #771 on: May 19, 2019, 09:05:50 AM »
we're not far from the point where neoliberalism would start to be seen as a leftist ideology.

Over my dead body...

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #772 on: May 19, 2019, 09:14:37 AM »
Re: " Definitions get jumbled up"

Yes. It is very important to be clear about what words mean. Else actual communication degenerates, which might be the goal for some.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #773 on: May 19, 2019, 09:38:20 AM »
Quote
Else actual communication degenerates, which might be the goal for some.

It most certainly is the case, for some. It's patently obvious several lack basic cooperative communication skills. Wanna see my list?

Includes:  ROB DEKKER ... OREN .... NEILT ... SIGMETNOW .... BUDDY ....  WDMN - Archimid - bbr2314 - be cause - BeeKnees  - jacksmith4tx  - Jim Hunt - litesong - Pmt111500 - prairiebotanist -  sedziobs - Susan Anderson - Martin Gisser - and AbruptSLR when posting about the Deep State and Russiagate copying GARBAGE from the MSM
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 06:04:24 PM by Lurk »

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #774 on: May 19, 2019, 05:17:47 PM »
Definitions aren't getting twisted by accident but by a deliberate action of American spin doctors.

This happens when identity politics takes over and group signalling becomes the point of all political actions.

Democrats aren't really "liberal" compared to "conservative" Republicans, in the classis sense of these words. "Socialist" Bernie Sanders wants to follow the Nordic model. Which is strange because Nordic countries aren't socialist but highly deregulated market economies. Socialist sounds scarier than social democrat, though.

Words and definitions are important because they make reality. There's no reason for us non-Americans to abandon their actual meaning.
In PIOMAS we trust

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #775 on: May 19, 2019, 05:40:32 PM »
Guys, i hear you. I'd rather stick with the words and their definitions too.

But as Lurk pointed out already language is always in flux. Change in language is the only constant. And when we talk politics today, we can't use the language from 1910.

And then there is also the American/European divide in the definitions. Bernie is, in European measures, a right-leaning social democrat. In the US he is perceived as radically left. It is only natural that definitions are getting screwed up.

We should rather talk about the actual policies, politics and issues, not the drawers politicians are put in.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #776 on: May 19, 2019, 05:41:39 PM »
This happens when identity politics takes over and group signalling becomes the point of all political actions.

I don't understand. How does identity politics come to play in this context?

bluice

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #777 on: May 19, 2019, 07:59:24 PM »
I don't understand. How does identity politics come to play in this context?
By putting political opponents into unwanted groups because signalling one’s group is more important than actual political content. I bet there are lots of Americans who would benefit from Sanders’s policies but will never vote for a ”socialist”.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #778 on: May 19, 2019, 08:11:01 PM »
I get it now, thanks. But wouldn't that better be described as tribalism Bluice?

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #779 on: May 19, 2019, 08:43:03 PM »
That probably covers it also. Another misunderstanding of definitions?  :D
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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #780 on: May 21, 2019, 12:44:36 AM »
Capturing the regulators:

"JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup and three foreign banks had been fined $1.2 billion by the European Commission for rigging foreign exchange markets"

"U.S. Department of Justice leveled criminal felony charges on the same two U.S. banks in 2015 for rigging the same market. Both banks admitted to the charges at that time."

"Dodd-Frank financial reform legislation has failed miserably in stopping the ongoing crime spree "

Question: "Can you guarantee us that no one institution will be able to call the White House or Congress and say ‘we’re going down, and when we go down, we’ll bring down a chunk of the economy with us.’ They did that 10 years ago. Can we just hang up on them now if they make that call ? ... can you guarantee if they call, we can hang up the phone. You’re not gonna be here saying, oops, you better pass TARP II. "

Answer: "the changes that have been made will give policy makers, including the Congress, more options than existed 10 years ago"

Question: "what do you, as regulators, think of $300 billion plus in fines on the big ones, Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Wells Fargo "

Answer: "I’m very comfortable that we are on site, we are regulating those institutions and fines are the byproduct of when we find harm and activities…"

"Dean said she was sure the regulators were doing their job. But, clearly, they are not doing their job or the crimes would not be continuing at the same banks."

"Jamie Dimon has been the Chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase since before the financial collapse ... The bank lost at least $6.2 billion of its depositors’ money in that scandal. The bank paid over $1 billion in fines and settlements but Dimon kept his job. In 2014 Dimon’s bank was charged and admitted to two felony counts for its involvement in the Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme. For the first time in its more than a century of existence, it became a felon. Dimon kept his job. The very next year, 2015, the bank admitted to another felony count for rigging foreign exchange trading. Dimon kept his job. What kind of Federal regulators let the same man sit at the helm of the largest bank in the U.S. after three felony counts on his watch and after he has allowed depositors funds to be gambled away in London to the tune of $6.2 billion in losses."

" Wall Street banks look more and more like a crime syndicate and their regulators look like either lackeys or interns for the crime syndicate. "

http://wallstreetonparade.com/2019/05/as-regulators-squirm-in-their-seats-at-house-hearing-jpmorgan-and-citigroup-get-slapped-with-more-rigging-charges-by-eu/

Best regulation money can buy !

sidd

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #781 on: May 22, 2019, 07:02:04 AM »
Capitalism at war: how the money flows

"the bombs were 2,000-pound MK-84s, manufactured by General Dynamics. Based in Falls Church, Va., General Dynamics is the world’s sixth most profitable arms manufacturer. One of the bombs used a satellite guidance kit from Chicago-based Boeing, the world’s second-most profitable weapons company. The other bomb had a Paveway guidance system, made by either Raytheon of Waltham, Mass., the third-largest arms company in the world, or Lockheed Martin of Bethesda, Md., the world’s top weapons contractor. An In These Times analysis found that in the past decade, the State Department has approved at least $30.1 billion in Saudi military contracts for these four companies."

" particularly lucrative for General Dynamics, Boeing and Raytheon, which have received hundreds of millions of dollars in Saudi weapons deals"

"Over the past decade, Saudi Arabia has ordered U.S.-made offensive weapons, surveillance equipment, transportation, parts and training valued at $109.3 billion"

"since 2009, Saudi Arabia has ordered more than 27,000 missiles worth at least $1.8 billion from Raytheon alone, plus 6,000 guided bombs from Boeing (worth about $332 million) and 1,300 cluster munitions from Rhode Island-based Textron (worth about $641 million)"

"Since the war began, the Saudis have struck deals worth $5.5 billion with war contractors for weapons maintenance, support and training"

“And so most of the planes would be grounded if Lockheed Martin or Boeing turn off the help line.”

"five Democrats—Joe Donnelly (Ind.), Claire McCaskill (Mo.), Joe Manchin (W.Va.), Bill Nelson (Fla.) and Mark Warner (Va.)—broke with their party to ensure arms sales continued, in a 53-47 vote ... had collectively received tens of thousands in arms industry donations, and would receive another $148,032 in the next election cycle from the PACs and employees of Boeing and Raytheon. "

" in 2018, State Department staff, voicing concerns about the war on Yemen, asked Secretary of State Mike Pompeo not to certify that civilian deaths were being reduced. Their concerns were overridden by the department’s Bureau of Legislative Affairs, which argued such a move could put billions of dollars in future arms sales in jeopardy"

http://inthesetimes.com/features/us-saudi-arabia-yemen-war-arms-sales.html

Does your portfolio containe stocks of these profitable companies ?

sidd

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #782 on: May 22, 2019, 12:36:20 PM »
The United States Military budget is enough money to decarbonize the entire developing world's electrical grid.

Shared Humanity

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #783 on: May 25, 2019, 04:42:51 PM »
The entire system of capitalism has, at its core, a persistent structural problem that cannot be solved and periodically imposes its will on us.

It is a growth system dependent on production and consumption. The financial system accumulates capital in order to provide funds to grow both sides of this simple equation. This accumulated capital is forever seeking the highest rates of return in the form of interest rates. Capital is constantly seeking growth opportunities and following where capital flows allows you to track where those highest growth opportunities currently exist. These capital flows can be geographical (money racing towards Asia and China) or industry focused (money flowing towards high tech or the ballooning construction industry).

Individual actors on the production side (corporations) are constantly looking for ways to maximize their own returns by improving productivity and thus attracting more capital. The structural problem imposes its ruthless consequences when the means of production outgrows the demand for what it produces. On the small scale this shows up as the boom and bust cycles (recessions) that have always plagued the system. Where it gets frightening is when the structural problems of growth overwhelming demand becomes too large to tweak the financial system to weasel our way out of it.

This structural problem was the root cause of the Great Depression. The western world was producing far more goods than could be consumed. The battles over their colonial empires that preceded the Great Depression were more about securing markets for their goods than anything else. Great Britain prohibited the manufacture of salt and cotton cloth in their largest colony, India, in order to provide markets for British industry. The Great Depression than logically resulted in WWII as the western powers sought to increase their advantage.

Post WWII, the problem of maximizing returns was solved by aggressively integrating the 3rd world into the system. The growth opportunities in Asia and other continents resulted in 5 decades of rapid growth. The long term structural problem is resurfacing and we are running out of places to get adequate returns on capital. There are no new vast regions on the planet to exploit.

We narrowly avoided a worldwide collapse in 2008. It is coming and there is simply no way to avoid it. If human civilization is to survive, we must develop a new system by which we organize ourselves."
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 05:55:56 PM by Shared Humanity »

Sigmetnow

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #784 on: May 27, 2019, 06:44:17 PM »
“The number of millennials who view capitalism positively fell from 68% in 2010 to just 45% in 2017.”

Young People Blame Climate Change for Their Small Retirement Accounts
Quote
“What happened in 2008 was an incredible financial flashpoint for millennials,” he says. “After watching their parents lose a job or a home, millennials are contending with a deep distrust for financial institutions and the stock market. That brings out catastrophic thinking, because they’ve already seen a catastrophe.” ...
https://www.barrons.com/articles/millennials-saving-for-retirement-51558676997

Here’s a link to the story via Apple News: https://apple.news/AU3hn3Gp_TtyD2cx3uoS59A
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #785 on: May 27, 2019, 09:40:31 PM »
Singh at medium reviews a book by the Patnaiks on imperialism, colonialization and capitalism.

Once central argument seems to be that capitalism suppresses inflation by limiting income and consumption in the exploited areas.

"Capitalism’s preferred and most common means of responding to the threat of increasing supply price has been by constricting the consumption of such peripheral products by the local population. "

The book has many other interesting theses. I may have to read it.

https://medium.com/@ajitbirsingh/book-review-a-theory-of-imperialism-shines-light-on-the-history-of-capitalism-and-way-forward-7f8295b5e568

sidd


Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #786 on: May 31, 2019, 05:48:32 AM »
Capitalism and Neoliberalism are responsible for Climate Crisis (Víctor Manuel Toledo Manzur):
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/05/30/lets-be-clear-says-mexico-environment-minister-parasitic-and-predatory-neoliberalism

EDIT: Problem with billionaires fighting AGW is billionaires:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/10/billionaires-climate-change-michael-bloomberg
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:55:53 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #787 on: June 05, 2019, 08:42:50 AM »
Township of ferguson might be in endgame of sacrifice zone for late stage capitalism capturing regulators. Their business model was jailing black people and holding em to ransom. That was cool forawhile, till they shot the wrong guy and the underclass found a lawyer. And they hadnt read the fine print on the insurance contract. So sad.

 “If there’s no insurance coverage and there’s a huge judgement, I don’t know how it would pay.”

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/lawsuit-over-fergusons-debtors-prison-drags-on/

Well, the usual thing is that the town disincorporates, and city hall and other assets are sold.

I go thru there often off I-70. It was a sacrifice zone forawhile now.

sidd

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #788 on: June 13, 2019, 06:22:39 PM »
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #789 on: June 13, 2019, 06:38:46 PM »
Tom, are you being... Ironic?

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #790 on: June 13, 2019, 10:56:16 PM »
de Boer argues that capitalism must be dismantled in order to build a welfare state:

"the welfare state they build will be taken apart, brick by brick, as soon as it is put together."

" Either capital will find a way to derive profit from it and in doing so deepen inequality and exploitation, or it will eventually tear it down. And President Bernie Sanders will not be able to do a single fucking thing about it. "

https://fredrikdeboer.com/2019/06/07/theyll-come-and-tear-your-welfare-state-apart/

sidd

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #791 on: June 13, 2019, 11:13:08 PM »
Tom, are you being... Ironic?

Take it as you wish.
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Tom_Mazanec

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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #793 on: June 24, 2019, 11:14:04 PM »
Capitalists see the writing on the wall: Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin.

Billionaires " call on all candidates for President, whether they are Republicans or Democrats, to support a moderate wealth tax "

"Louise J. Bowditch, Robert S. Bowditch, Abigail Disney, Sean Eldridge, Stephen R. English, Agnes Gund, Catherine Gund, Nick Hanauer, Arnold Hiatt, Chris Hughes, Molly Munger, Regan Pritzker, Justin Rosenstein, Stephen M. Silberstein, Ian T. Simmons, Liesel Pritzker Simmons, Alexander Soros, George Soros, and Anonymous"

https://medium.com/@letterforawealthtax/an-open-letter-to-the-2020-presidential-candidates-its-time-to-tax-us-more-6eb3a548b2fe

sidd

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #794 on: June 25, 2019, 08:08:02 AM »
Moderate indeed:

Quote
The first specific candidate proposal, introduced by Senator Warren, would provide millions of families with a better shot at the American dream by taxing only 75,000 of the wealthiest families in the country. The proposal is straightforward: It puts in place a tax of 2 cents on the dollar on assets after a $50 million exemption and an additional tax of 1 cent on the dollar on assets over $1 billion. If you have $49.9 million or less you are not paying the tax. It is estimated to generate nearly $3 trillion in tax revenue over ten years.

How about 100 cents on the dollar after a $500 million exemption?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #795 on: June 26, 2019, 08:20:56 PM »
Corrupt companies, compliant judges, coverups:

" addiction took early root among miners who were prescribed the blockbuster opioid OxyContin "

"evidence was clearly compelling:"

"Stephens sealed the evidence on which he relied in that ruling"

"more than a dozen other judges overseeing similar lawsuits against Purdue took the same tack, keeping the company’s records secret"

"It would be 12 years – and 245,000 overdose deaths – before evidence Stephens and other judges kept hidden was made public, and then only after it was leaked to a newspaper."

"he doesn’t second-guess his decision ... “It speaks for itself.” "

"Federal Judge Dan Polster is providing the same cover for multiple opioid makers, distributors and retailers"

"a pervasive and deadly secrecy that shrouds product-liability cases in U.S. courts, enabled by judges who routinely allow the makers of those products to keep information pertinent to public health and safety under wraps"

"Reuters found that over the past 20 years, judges sealed evidence relevant to public health and safety in about half of the 115 biggest defective-product cases "

"Reuters found that hundreds of thousands of people were killed or seriously injured by allegedly defective products after judges in just a handful of cases allowed litigants to file under seal, beyond public view, evidence that could have alerted consumers and regulators to potential danger. "

"secrecy has become so ingrained in the system that judges rarely question it"

" Corporate lawyers want to protect their clients’ reputations. Plaintiffs’ lawyers want to avoid miring their clients’ cases in lengthy courtroom wrangling over requests that filings be sealed or redacted. And judges want to keep the business of justice moving."

[comment: "the business of justice" says it all ]

"with one sealing order, a judge can impose secrecy in thousands of cases."

"entire lawsuits have been filed under seal in his court, including supporting evidence drawn from millions of records that detail the industry’s conduct over two decades."

"corporate lobbying has stymied sunshine legislation for decades."

"rule changes moved discovery out of the courthouse and thus out of public view"

"judges sealed entire arguments that dealt directly with the strength of the evidence."

"Demanding transparency can cause protracted delays."

"Egilman, a clinical professor of family medicine at Brown University, made Lilly records he had reviewed in the case available to the New York Times ...  Lilly threatened to seek criminal sanctions against Egilman "

"Purdue’s lawyers argued that disclosure would stoke outrage and embarrass the company."

" lawsuit was full of details that could make the company look bad, a Purdue lawyer complained "

"Polster has since ratcheted up the secrecy in his court ... the Sixth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rebuked Polster ...It will be up to Polster to decide what the public will be allowed to see. "

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-courts-secrecy-judges/

The finest justice money can buy.

sidd







Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #796 on: June 26, 2019, 08:44:19 PM »
Quote
The finest justice money can buy.

Hopefully we'll return control of our government to decent people and some legislation can be passed to deal with this problem.

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #797 on: June 27, 2019, 01:22:08 AM »
that sure does sound great doesnt it bobby!

Neven

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #798 on: June 27, 2019, 11:20:13 AM »
Hopefully we'll return control of our government to decent people and some legislation can be passed to deal with this problem.

Joe Biden is the decentest of them all!
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Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #799 on: June 27, 2019, 08:05:53 PM »
Hopefully we'll return control of our government to decent people and some legislation can be passed to deal with this problem.

Joe Biden is the decentest of them all!

Joe is a good guy.  A very good person.  If we had more politicians like Joe we'd be a better country.  And other countries, including yours, could use some Good Ol' Joes.  We all need more leaders who truly care for others rather than self enrichment and power for power's sake.

But Joe, IMHO, is not our best option for the presidency.  Joe's a bit old and outdated, like that other old guy running (but Joe's a lot more pleasant and caring).  We've got an incredible set of candidates to choose from this time around and about a year to get to know each of them better so that, hopefully, we will pick one of the very best.