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Author Topic: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?  (Read 119338 times)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #800 on: June 27, 2019, 08:12:22 PM »
Joe is a good guy.  A very good person.

Can you be a little more concrete on that? I mean, what has he done to deserve the praise?

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #801 on: June 27, 2019, 09:04:17 PM »

Joe has been a kind and considerate person who has worked to make life better for others. 

If you don't know who Joe is, as a person, here's a couple of things you can read...


https://www.rollcall.com/news/opinion/joe-biden-book-decent-man

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/joe-bidens-affectionate-warmth-what-makes-him-great/586435/

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #802 on: June 27, 2019, 09:33:27 PM »
Thanks for your answer, still it leaves me unsatisfied. Is there anything real? An issue he fought for and won you supported?

Here is a more representative account of who he is IMHO



Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #803 on: June 27, 2019, 10:52:07 PM »
Thanks for your answer, still it leaves me unsatisfied. Is there anything real? An issue he fought for and won you supported?

Here is a more representative account of who he is IMHO



I don't have 20 minutes to watch the video.  Please go back and read my comments.  At no point did I state that Biden should be the Democratic candidate for president.  Here is exactly what I posted -

Quote
But Joe, IMHO, is not our best option for the presidency.  Joe's a bit old and outdated, like that other old guy running (but Joe's a lot more pleasant and caring).  We've got an incredible set of candidates to choose from this time around and about a year to get to know each of them better so that, hopefully, we will pick one of the very best.

That said, if we discover that Biden provides our only decent chance of beating Trump I'd fully support Biden and expect him to be a good president.  Not an outstanding president, but a good one.  Hopefully we will pick someone who will be outstanding, we've got a lot of repair work to do and a lot of catching up ahead of us. 

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #804 on: June 28, 2019, 05:32:27 AM »
Quote
Please go back and read my comments

i read what you wrote. You said he's a good guy.

Now i'm only wondering how the guy who screwed over the US citizens for so long, can be a good guy. Because, when i look at his voting record, the Anita Hill story, the segregation he supported, how he supported Republicans all his life, how he voted for their despicable policies, it's hard to imagine there is one liberal American who thinks 'he's a good guy'. When i hear him talk to his corporate donors, and he promises 'nothing will fundamentally change', i think only ultra conservatives would support him.

On a personal level, he is a 'creepy old uncle' kind of guy. Touching and grabbing young girls. Ew.

I'm really interested in why people still think that 'he's a good guy'. It can't be his politics, and it can't be his attitude. So what is it?

Is it the name recognition? He's 'the Obama guy' isn't he? Is it that what makes him a good guy?

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #805 on: June 28, 2019, 06:47:13 AM »
Quote
Please go back and read my comments

i read what you wrote. You said he's a good guy.

Now i'm only wondering how the guy who screwed over the US citizens for so long, can be a good guy. Because, when i look at his voting record, the Anita Hill story, the segregation he supported, how he supported Republicans all his life, how he voted for their despicable policies, it's hard to imagine there is one liberal American who thinks 'he's a good guy'. When i hear him talk to his corporate donors, and he promises 'nothing will fundamentally change', i think only ultra conservatives would support him.

On a personal level, he is a 'creepy old uncle' kind of guy. Touching and grabbing young girls. Ew.

I'm really interested in why people still think that 'he's a good guy'. It can't be his politics, and it can't be his attitude. So what is it?

Is it the name recognition? He's 'the Obama guy' isn't he? Is it that what makes him a good guy?

You have let someone sell you a bucket of crap about Biden.

Joe Biden is a very good person.  Period.

The world changes.  What was then is perhaps not what is now.  The rules change and to judge a person by what was common practice decades back or sometimes only weeks/months is not fair.  George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners.  They, along with the other founding fathers did not make a role for women in the government.  But they created our country.  I'm glad they did.

Joe is a "toucher".  Or at least used to be.  That used to be a good thing to be.  Not a toucher in terms of touching people in 'private places' or in a sexual manner or in a way to intimidate.  But making physical contact with people to create a feeling of intimacy, that you were there with them and thought well of them.  Now it's no longer a good thing to be a toucher.  And I think that's a bad thing.  We threw out the baby with the bathwater.  And we threw it out only months ago.

Biden's segregation problems were in the 1970s.  That's the better part of a half century ago.  Joe and I are about the same age, he's a bit over a year older than me.  Lots of white people our age grew up in the days of strict segregation.  Some gave up their racism quickly and some took a bit longer. 

Quote
A review of Biden’s record — which spans 36 years as a U.S. senator and eight as vice president — is, in part, a reminder of how much the Democratic Party itself and the U.S. political system have changed over the last half a century.

Biden opposed school busing for desegregation in the 1970s. He voted for a measure aimed at outlawing gay marriage in the 1990s. He was an ally of the banking and credit card industries.

He chaired the 1991 Clarence Thomas hearings that gave short shrift to the sexual harassment allegations raised by Anita Hill. He backed crime legislation that many blamed for helping fuel an explosion in prison populations. He eulogized Sen. Strom Thurmond (R-S.C.), who rose to prominence as a segregationist. He backed the Iraq war.

Many of Biden’s positions were well within the mainstream of the Democratic Party at the time he took them.

But the party is now far more sensitive to discrimination against gays, sexual harassment and racial inequality than when Biden first came to Washington.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-biden-senate-record-controversies-20190318-story.html

Don't look at who Joe was 30 years ago or 50 years ago, look at who he is now. 

Biden is someone who cares for others.  He's served his the people who elected him to office well.  He returned to where his voters lived nightly and has never enriched himself by taking advantage of  his position.


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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #806 on: June 28, 2019, 07:07:11 AM »
Biden is a neoliberal in a bubble, a wonderful Green BAU candidate. Hence the attraction, I guess.  For people his age who spend their last days making sure that their way continues to be followed to the very end.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #807 on: June 28, 2019, 07:26:14 AM »
You have let someone sell you a bucket of crap about Biden.

No, Bob. I'm having a very nuanced view of his politics. I checked his voting record back to 1991. It's all Republican right there. He is exactly the corporate, status quo, corrupt politician who liberal Americans don't need.

Quote
Joe Biden is a very good person.  Period.

That's what i understand. You keep saying that. I'm interested in the 'why'.

Quote
The world changes.

Indeed. In 1920 in Germany it wasn't ok to gas jews. 15 years later it was.

Ethics is not a function of time you are in. At the same time Biden supported segregation, Bernie fought for black peoples rights. Biden could have known that he is on the wrong side of history even 30 or 50 years ago. I judge people by their actions, not by their ability to jump the bandwagon. Actually the later makes them more unlikable.




Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #808 on: June 28, 2019, 07:32:03 AM »
Biden is a neoliberal in a bubble, a wonderful Green BAU candidate. Hence the attraction, I guess.  For people his age who spend their last days making sure that their way continues to be followed to the very end.

Biden is known.  Pure and simple.  He has excellent name recognition and most of the other Democratic candidates are known mostly only locally in the areas they are from.  For those whose number one priority is to get rid of Trump, Biden is a known, acceptable candidate. 

Sanders also has a lot of name recognition.  Biden and Sanders are polling the highest at this point.  One should not be surprised that those with the highest name recognition poll well this far out.  Remember, this far in advance of the 2008 election few people had any idea who Barack Obama was. 

We have a year to get to know the other options.  I doubt either Biden or Sanders will be in the run a year from now.

Those who want revolutionary change need to understand that most people do not.  People do not want their lives disrupted.  They want their lives made better.  They want problems like climate change solved but not at a large personal expense or major change in lifestyle. 

Business as usual is change.  Things around us are constantly changing and, in general, for the better.   If one looks back with objective lenses we can see the progress we've made.  Many of the problems of ten, twenty, thirty years ago have been solved.

Of course this progress is not fast enough for some.  But that's balanced by things changing faster than some others would like.  Unfortunately, as long as we have a democratic form of government things will not change as fast as the most impatient would like and faster than the most resistant to change would like.  And there's no safe option to a democratic government.  Monarchs and dictators might start really good but there's nothing to keep them from turning bad.  And if that happens then we've got an actual revolution to fight.



b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #809 on: June 28, 2019, 07:36:41 AM »
Is it the name recognition?

Biden is known.  Pure and simple.

Called it!  8)


Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #810 on: June 28, 2019, 07:49:47 AM »
You have let someone sell you a bucket of crap about Biden.

No, Bob. I'm having a very nuanced view of his politics. I checked his voting record back to 1991. It's all Republican right there. He is exactly the corporate, status quo, corrupt politician who liberal Americans don't need.


Quote
Below is how Voteview ranks Biden from 1973 through 2008: The purple line shows how liberal Biden was compared to the full Senate, while the blue line shows how he measured up among Senate Democrats. (In the chart below, the most liberal senator would be rated 100 percent and the least liberal senator would be rated zero.)

Biden was on average more liberal than about 75% of the Senate overall. Among Democrats, he was in the middle of the pack. On average, he stood at almost exactly his party’s center line.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/may/06/joe-biden/joe-biden-claims-he-was-staunch-liberal-senate-he-/

What you claim to be Republican was centrist Democrat.  Not even right-leaning Democrat.

And please don't bullshit me about Bernie fighting for black rights.  He did a little demonstrating when he was a student, it was the popular thing to do.  When he started running for president four years ago his people had to pull him aside and give him a racial awareness workshop.  Bernie left his fighting for black rights behind when he left college.

Now please quit pushing me on Biden.  Joe is not my choice for president.  He and Bernie are too old and out of touch, IMO.  I don't know yet who I will support be I really doubt it would be either of them when it's time to vote in the primary.  I am simply defending Biden against what I see as character assignination from the far left.  The same crap that helped put Trump in the White House.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #811 on: June 28, 2019, 07:51:44 AM »
Joe ? Senator from MBNA ? never met a banker he didn't like ?

"senator supported legislation that was promoted by the credit card industry and opposed by consumer groups."

"makes it harder for consumers to obtain bankruptcy protection in the courts."

DiFi was in on that scam too.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mbna-paid-bidens-son-as-biden-backed-bill/


"Over the past 20 years, MBNA has been Biden's single largest contributor. "

" defeat an effort, supported by Mr. Obama, to shift responsibility in certain cases from debtors to the predatory lenders who helped push them into bankruptcy."

https://www.propublica.org/article/bidens-cozy-relations-with-bank-industry-825

"voted for the Riegle-Neal Interstate Banking and Branching Efficiency Act of 1994, enabling commercial banks to do business across state lines, and the Gramm-Leach-Blilely Act of 1999, overturning Glass-Steagall"

" Biden voted “yea” on this controversial bill referred to as “welfare reform” which, among other things, added work requirements and a five-year lifetime limit on the program TANF (Temporary Assistance to Needy Families). Sold as a means of curbing “abuse,” the measures had the effect of forcing people off the rolls while doing little to address their needs. While the administration touted the decline in the number of families on welfare, the number in extreme poverty—defined as households in which individuals live on $2 in cash per day—rose. Today, the number is roughly double what it was in 1996"

"the 1994 crime bill which, among other things, allocated $10 billion for the construction of new prisons and incentivised states to pass “truth-in-sentencing” laws. Such laws take discretion away from judges by requiring violent offenders to serve a minimum of 85 percent of their prison terms."

"co-sponsored the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 which expanded civil asset forfeitures in which law enforcement seize property suspected of being involved in a crime, without Due Process. Ferner and Wing continue on to explain that “Biden authored portions of the Anti-Drug Abuse Act, which created a 100-to-1 sentencing disparity between crack and powder cocaine.”  "

"Biden also backed the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988, which imposed harsher penalties for drug possession."

"voted for the Iraq War ...  a military solution as well as a political solution in Syria. "

"long been a skeptic of net neutrality"

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/01/the-case-against-joe-biden.html

"In 1998, Biden supported a change in the bankruptcy code that created an “undue hardship” standard for federal student loans, making it significantly more difficult for borrowers to discharge their federal student loans in bankruptcy. Biden continued to oppose efforts to loosen bankruptcy restrictions on student loans through 2001.
In 2005, Biden supported a change in the bankruptcy code that made it much more difficult to discharge private student loan debt in bankruptcy by also applying the “undue hardship” standard. Prior to then, private student loans were not treated much differently than other forms of consumer debt in bankruptcy. Following this change, private student loans started rapidly expanding across college campuses."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2019/06/03/where-does-joe-biden-stand-on-student-loan-debt/

Biden ? With democrats like that, who needs republicans ?

sidd


Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #812 on: June 28, 2019, 08:19:18 AM »
Biden was about half way between the center and the far left of where the country was during those points in time.  We now look back at some of those decisions and understand them to be wrong, but that's looking at yesterday through today's glasses.

Take one example, voting for military action against Iraq.  The Senate and all Americans were lied to about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction.  Senators voted based on what they believed to be true and the best action to take.  42% of Democrats in the Senate voted against the war, 58% voted to support military action. 

I suspect many of you, when in your seventies, will be able to look back at things you thought and did when you were much younger and realize that you did not think or do the right thing by current standards.  But at the time that seemed to be the right thing to think or do.














b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #813 on: June 28, 2019, 08:36:00 AM »
Biden was about half way between the center and the far left

From a European perspective:

Sanders would count as a social democrat here. Social democracy is center here. The conservatives are right of the social democrats. Therefore 'right-wing'.

On the left of the social democrats though, there are degrees of leftism. There are the greens, the socialists, and even further on the left, you'll find the communists. This whole spectrum isn't even represented in American politics.

And to place Biden's politics in this framework, we are waaaaaaay right of the center.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #814 on: June 28, 2019, 08:41:40 AM »
Discussion of Biden probably belongs in a different thread, say the "corporate Democrats" or "Democratic candidates for 2020" or somesuch.

But, relevant to this thread, Biden is bought and paid for by capitalists, as his long record indicates. He is the perfect example of the market in politicians at work. He has been for sale throughout his career. Given such a long record of fellating Wall Street, I for one do not expect him to act contrary to the interests of MBNA or other paymasters.

Clearly others here do, and expect him to have a change of heart. Good luck.

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #815 on: June 28, 2019, 08:44:15 AM »


[/quote]
Biden was about half way between the center and the far left

From a European perspective:

Sanders would count as a social democrat here. Social democracy is center here. The conservatives are right of the social democrats. Therefore 'right-wing'.

On the left of the social democrats though, there are degrees of leftism. There are the greens, the socialists, and even further on the left, you'll find the communists. This whole spectrum isn't even represented in American politics.

And to place Biden's politics in this framework, we are waaaaaaay right of the center.

News Flash!!!

The United States is located in North America, not in Europe.

And another piece of news comes across the desk!

Not all of Europe is as left as you suggest.  You're cherry picking countries.


b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #816 on: June 28, 2019, 08:50:26 AM »
You're cherry picking countries.

LOL, what? That makes no sense, Bob.

I've not even mentioned a European country. How did i cherry pick? And what did i cherry pick? This is a comparison.

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #817 on: June 28, 2019, 08:52:04 AM »
Discussion of Biden probably belongs in a different thread, say the "corporate Democrats" or "Democratic candidates for 2020" or somesuch.

But, relevant to this thread, Biden is bought and paid for by capitalists, as his long record indicates. He is the perfect example of the market in politicians at work. He has been for sale throughout his career. Given such a long record of fellating Wall Street, I for one do not expect him to act contrary to the interests of MBNA or other paymasters.

Clearly others here do, and expect him to have a change of heart. Good luck.

sidd

Since I am the only one who has said anything nice about Biden it's clear that I'm the "others".

I don't expect Biden or pretty much anyone to make drastic changes.  I expect Biden will continue to grow and change at some pace just like everyone else. 

Biden is no more 'bought and paid for' than pretty much every other office holder.  It takes money to get elected and individuals fully support almost no candidates at the general election level.  The US has serious campaign financing law problems.  To get elected you either have to get corporate/rich people backing or you have to come with your own fortune and be willing to spend it.

Pick any candidate from the list, even Saint Bernard.  They won't be able to buy the needed TV time with the few dollars 'ordinary people' will give them.  If you want to gain office in order to help people and do good you first have to gain office.



sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #818 on: June 28, 2019, 09:06:05 AM »
Re: "Biden is no more 'bought and paid for' than pretty much every other office holder. "

Well, thats the problem, ain't it ?

Re:  "the few dollars 'ordinary people' will give them. "

Well Bernie seemed to have proved in 2016 and this year that crowdsourcing does work. Or are you really arguing that Biden has fewer fat cat donors than Bernie ?

sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #819 on: June 28, 2019, 09:33:45 AM »
Re: "Biden is no more 'bought and paid for' than pretty much every other office holder. "

Well, thats the problem, ain't it ?

Re:  "the few dollars 'ordinary people' will give them. "

Well Bernie seemed to have proved in 2016 and this year that crowdsourcing does work. Or are you really arguing that Biden has fewer fat cat donors than Bernie ?

sidd

Yes, I clearly stated that the US has a significant campaign financing problem.  And, no, Bernie did not finance a general election campaign without fat cat donors seeing as how he didn't win the primary.

I sincerely doubt either Biden or Sanders could win in November 2020 without major financing from people with big money.  I doubt anyone could.  Too many voters don't dive into the issues but rely on what they see in ads and ads cost money.  Lots and lots of money.

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #820 on: June 28, 2019, 09:41:40 AM »
Keep doing what you've always done, and you'll keep getting what you've always got.

As I said, good luck.

sidd

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #821 on: June 28, 2019, 09:47:22 AM »
I sincerely doubt either Biden or Sanders could win in November 2020 without major financing from people with big money.  I doubt anyone could.

Never underestimate the power of astroturfing. Don't forget, there are over a million people out there dedicated to fighting for him.

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #822 on: June 28, 2019, 09:56:31 AM »
Trump and Clinton spent a combined $1.16 billion in 2016.  That's about $600 million each. 

You think there are a million people backing "him" that are willing to put up that kind of money?  An average of $600 each?

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #823 on: June 28, 2019, 10:05:33 AM »
No, i think someone knocking on your door, talking to you, convincing you, is worth more than TV ads.

I don't know about it. You might be right and it's really money that's the only variable to consider here. If so, the US is even more fucked than i ever thought.

If not, there is hope.

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #824 on: June 28, 2019, 10:51:03 AM »
Keep doing what you've always done, and you'll keep getting what you've always got.

And you will never die!
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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #825 on: June 28, 2019, 01:38:46 PM »
Quote

[/size]The nonprofit Center for Responsive Politics estimates spending on the Clinton-Trump contest at more than $2.65 billion, actually down a bit from $2.76 billion in 2012 when Democratic incumbent Barack Obama defeated Republican challenger Mitt Romney.
[/size][/color]

[/size][/color]
[/size]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/election-2016s-price-tag-6-8-billion/
[/size]total 2016 elections 6.8 billionWhen you approach one of the parties to become a candidate they don't ask about your polling or politics they ask how much money can you raise. total population of US 329000000
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/[/font]
[/size]That's about $20.67 for every man, woman and child in the US. To craft a message that is what you want to hear and bombard you with it for over a year. That message has almost nothing to do with what they intend to do in office. It's gotten so bad most people don't even notice when do the opposite of what they say they are going to do. Most of the time the news cycle is about an issue that isn't one they are voting on  or going to vote on anytime soon. Need to vote on subsidies for fossil fuels quick everybody do a story on  abortions. Want to eliminate net metering. Oh look that politician has a mistress.  Mostly its a puppet show to keep people distracted from corruption. Journalists want to pretend they investigate and seek out news but the truth is it is dictated to them by the associated press.
[/size]
[/size]1. Ban all internet television radio and newspaper ads promoting or denigrating a candidate. That is where most of the money is spent anyway this vastly decreases  advantages to big spenders.
[/size]
[/size]2 Eliminate the two party system any restrictions on getting on the ballot need to be the same for all candidates. A Biopoly(? similar to monopoly but with two) is almost as easily corrupted as  a monopoly.
[/size]
[/size]3 Political coverage has to be balanced by that I mean equal air time print space etc. for the candidates to explain their positions. Ban the round table discussion the loudest and most obnoxious person gets the most airtime. This round table encourage undue simplification of complex and nuanced problems. I find when you look into the issue the rhetoric is about some mystical land on another planet and not what is actually going on here on earth. It shouldn't remind you of a wrestling show with name calling and yelling. Trump reminds me more of a wrestling character with the goofy hair and spray tan.
[/size]
[/size] Most political coverage right now is just bad rhetoric rehashed ad nauseam, high school drama and calling of the horse race.  Most problems are complex and nuanced it requires time to educate and understand the problem before a possible solution can be suggested. If some people get bored and aren't entertained than so be it. Its even worse if you dumb it down so much that only a small minority of vested interests understand a problem.
[/size]
[/size]IDK I go of on these rants sometimes. Sorry. I wish our political system wasn't so corrupt.  I will stop now.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #826 on: June 28, 2019, 04:23:52 PM »
Quote
Ban all internet television radio and newspaper ads promoting or denigrating a candidate.

That would require a change to the US Constitution which is very difficult.  And do we really want to stop candidates from telling us who they are and what they support?

Quote
Eliminate the two party system any restrictions on getting on the ballot need to be the same for all candidates.

I'm unaware of those restrictions of which you speak.  Every time I go vote there are candidates from other parties on the ballot.

Quote
Political coverage has to be balanced by that I mean equal air time print space etc. for the candidates to explain their positions.

That sounds good but it's not easy to implement.  We have what are, except in name, American nazis.  Should their candidates get just as much air time/print as parties which represent significant percentages of the population?

Quote
Most political coverage right now is just bad rhetoric rehashed ad nauseam, high school drama and calling of the horse race.  Most problems are complex and nuanced it requires time to educate and understand the problem before a possible solution can be suggested. If some people get bored and aren't entertained than so be it. Its even worse if you dumb it down so much that only a small minority of vested interests understand a problem

Many of us feel the same but what can we do that would be effective?  How do we get people to spend time and effort to understand the problem and possible solutions in more than a cursory way? 

Are there countries where most voters understand problems and potential solutions in great detail?  If so, how did that come to be?

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #827 on: June 28, 2019, 05:08:57 PM »
Just an example of why we should be careful judging people by what they did decades earlier...

When President Obama was working to pass his healthcare act it was necessary to repeatedly assure voters that people in the country illegally would not be eligible for government provided healthcare. 

Last night the ten 2020 candidates in their first debate were asked to indicate by a raised hand if their healthcare plans would cover undocumented people and all ten hands immediately shot up. 

A poison pill for 2009 has become a necessary position in 2019. 

And, remember, President Obama did not support same sex marriage early in his administration but by the end of his time in office was a major supporter of gay marriage.  And the majority of the country made the same attitude changes over the same few years.  The US made a very major adjustment in just a handful of years. 


b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #828 on: June 28, 2019, 05:47:38 PM »
When President Obama was working to pass his healthcare act it was necessary to repeatedly assure voters that people in the country illegally would not be eligible for government provided healthcare. 

A staircase wit of history. The black guy goes all in on white supremacy politics.

Not sure if i crying frantically or laughing hysterically.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #829 on: June 28, 2019, 06:33:48 PM »
When President Obama was working to pass his healthcare act it was necessary to repeatedly assure voters that people in the country illegally would not be eligible for government provided healthcare. 

A staircase wit of history. The black guy goes all in on white supremacy politics.

Not sure if i crying frantically or laughing hysterically.


You should be hanging your head in shame.  Are you something like 17 years old and without any appreciation how attitudes and norms change over time?  Or are you older and lacking a basic understanding of societal change?

The 'black guy' was operating within the zeitgeist of the US in 2009.  Pushing for healthcare for all people living in the country was progressive for the time.  Now healthcare for all people legally living in the country has become fairly mainstream and extending coverage to those illegally in the country is becoming an acceptable position for many.

BTW, what country do you call home?  I'm wondering if there might be some 'pot calling the kettle black' happening.  The UK that is isolating itself because it doesn't want any more Poles to move in?  France with it's Marie Le Pen led party?  Italy with all its corrupt govenment issues?  Germany with its resurgence of fascists?


b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #830 on: June 28, 2019, 06:51:05 PM »
Are you something like 17 years old and without any appreciation how attitudes and norms change over time?

No! I'm a person with strong ethics. We talked about ethics earlier today. You don't seem to understand the concept. Let me explain.

When you prevent specific people from getting healthcare because they are somehow 'lesser' in your view, that's wrong! This is literally racist. It's wrong at all times. Under any condition.

You had ethical people helping Jews in the Nazi era who were on the right side of ethics. And you had people gassing them. Time does not matter if you are on the right or the wrong side of history!

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #831 on: June 28, 2019, 06:56:44 PM »
BTW, what country do you call home?

If you ask like that, i'm European.

My ancestors gassed jews. I have to live with this. This is why i'm very sensitive and strickt when it comes to ethics.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #832 on: June 28, 2019, 06:59:17 PM »
Are you something like 17 years old and without any appreciation how attitudes and norms change over time?

No! I'm a person with strong ethics. We talked about ethics earlier today. You don't seem to understand the concept. Let me explain.

When you prevent specific people from getting healthcare because they are somehow 'lesser' in your view, that's wrong! This is literally racist. It's wrong at all times. Under any condition.

You had ethical people helping Jews in the Nazi era who were on the right side of ethics. And you had people gassing them. Time does not matter if you are on the right or the wrong side of history!

Withholding healthcare from people because they are poor and can't afford healthcare is not racist.  There are more poor white people in the US who couldn't afford healthcare than other ethnic groups.

Withholding healthcare from people who are not legally in the country is not racist.  It's an issue about what should or should not be provided to people who have no right to be here. 

As for gassing the Jews, that's on Europe.  Take that up among yourselves.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #833 on: June 28, 2019, 07:07:25 PM »
BTW, what country do you call home?

If you ask like that, i'm European.

My ancestors gassed jews. I have to live with this. This is why i'm very sensitive and strickt when it comes to ethics.

If you are European then you have a lot more to live with than just gassing Jews.  You've got the crusades.  You've got the Dark Ages.
 You've got colonization.  You've got religious wars that drove many people out of Europe, including my ancestors.   The US had to come over and settle a war between a couple of your countries not long ago.  You've currently got a rising fascist/racist problem. 

Do we gain anything by trying to beat up on other countries over something they did in the past? 

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #834 on: June 28, 2019, 07:23:27 PM »
Take that up among yourselves.

I do! Don't you see that i do exactly that? Don't you see that i'm taking this whole 'never forget' thingy really seriously?

Therefore, you should listen, not dismiss what i say.

Sowas kommt von sowas.


Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #835 on: June 28, 2019, 07:43:59 PM »
Take that up among yourselves.

I do! Don't you see that i do exactly that? Don't you see that i'm taking this whole 'never forget' thingy really seriously?

Therefore, you should listen, not dismiss what i say.


I did not question your ethics.  I questioned your selective vision.

nanning

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #836 on: June 28, 2019, 07:51:41 PM »
Bob, to me it looks like your points float all over the place and I'm not drunk. Cognitive dissonances-reactions I think. No offence intended.
Also, I think you have no empathy. Again, no offence intended. Just an observation.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #837 on: June 28, 2019, 08:31:02 PM »
Bob, to me it looks like your points float all over the place and I'm not drunk. Cognitive dissonances-reactions I think. No offence intended.
Also, I think you have no empathy. Again, no offence intended. Just an observation.

Can you point out floating points? 

Can you point out an example of me not displaying empathy?

I'm not aware of what you are looking at when you form your opinions.

zizek

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #838 on: June 28, 2019, 08:35:29 PM »
Joe is a "toucher".  Or at least used to be.  That used to be a good thing to be.  Not a toucher in terms of touching people in 'private places' or in a sexual manner or in a way to intimidate.  But making physical contact with people to create a feeling of intimacy, that you were there with them and thought well of them.  Now it's no longer a good thing to be a toucher.  And I think that's a bad thing.  We threw out the baby with the bathwater.  And we threw it out only months ago.

What the fuck is this? How the fuck has nobody called this out? You perverted old man. You seriously think it's okay to intimately touch your female colleagues? Even when you have power over them? You think it's okay to sneak behind them, give them a nice squeeze around the hips, smell their hair, and give them a gentle kiss? You think sexual harassment is okay dokey?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/29/18241598/joe-biden-lucy-flores-touching-women-media-history-explained

It's fairly often you hear this garbage from perverted old pieces of shit like yourself. Justifying your disgusting behavior as some sort of sign of respect. Go die already old man.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #839 on: June 28, 2019, 09:05:01 PM »
Bob, i think Nanning means the fact, that you don't see the racist aspect of shotting people out of health care.

Racism is when people come up with arbitrary lines of categorisation, like skin colour, or nationality, in order to elevate themselves over others.

You actually talked about people outside of an arbitrary line of categorisation who doesn't deserve health care in your view.

I bet you don't see yourself as a racist.

There is cognitive dissonance.

Don't get me wrong, Bob. I don't want to insult you. Just want to help to reflect on this.

aperson

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #840 on: June 28, 2019, 09:35:31 PM »
I suspect many of you, when in your seventies, will be able to look back at things you thought and did when you were much younger and realize that you did not think or do the right thing by current standards.  But at the time that seemed to be the right thing to think or do.

Rather than using this as a rationalization for poor actions, it's a good thought experiment to consider whether what you're doing is truly progressive or not. If you think what you're doing will be reviled in 50 years, maybe try harder?
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Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #841 on: June 28, 2019, 09:39:51 PM »
Bob, i think Nanning means the fact, that you don't see the racist aspect of shotting people out of health care.

Racism is when people come up with arbitrary lines of categorisation, like skin colour, or nationality, in order to elevate themselves over others.

You actually talked about people outside of an arbitrary line of categorisation who doesn't deserve health care in your view.

I bet you don't see yourself as a racist.

There is cognitive dissonance.

Don't get me wrong, Bob. I don't want to insult you. Just want to help to reflect on this.

Don't worry about upsetting me as long as you put some thought behind your comments.  I do not enjoy having people put words in my mouth.  Now, let's review what I posted...

Quote
Withholding healthcare from people because they are poor and can't afford healthcare is not racist.  There are more poor white people in the US who couldn't afford healthcare than other ethnic groups.

The national argument was not about freezing blacks, Hispanics, or Lithuanians out of healthcare.  It was about whether providing healthcare for all was affordable.  Along as some right wing opposition to anything that resembles "socialism", to them.

Furthermore, I said absolutely nothing about my opinion about who should or should not receive government supplied healthcare.  If you wish to know my opinion, ask.  I've not provided it so far.

And if you wish to probe my racism, if it exists and to what extent, ask.

Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #842 on: June 28, 2019, 09:50:44 PM »
I suspect many of you, when in your seventies, will be able to look back at things you thought and did when you were much younger and realize that you did not think or do the right thing by current standards.  But at the time that seemed to be the right thing to think or do.

Rather than using this as a rationalization for poor actions, it's a good thought experiment to consider whether what you're doing is truly progressive or not. If you think what you're doing will be reviled in 50 years, maybe try harder?

Sometimes concepts show up years after actions are taken.  Do we take something like gay marriage which was not at all a topic of consideration in the 1960s or 1970s and damn people for not having openly supported it back then?  Stonewall happened 50 years ago, this week.  Before that I imagine less than 5% of Americans realized that gays wanted to be out of the closet.

You can't think that you'll be reviled in 50 years if there's no concept of how things might be 50 years in the future.  One has to operate within the reality of the moment.  Do you condemn geologists for talking about the fixed placement of continents prior to Wegener introducing the idea of continental drift in 1912? 

SteveMDFP

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #843 on: June 28, 2019, 09:51:25 PM »

The 'black guy' was operating within the zeitgeist of the US in 2009.  Pushing for healthcare for all people living in the country was progressive for the time.  Now healthcare for all people legally living in the country has become fairly mainstream and extending coverage to those illegally in the country is becoming an acceptable position for many.
The US government has long had a system for compensating hospitals for unreimbursed care.  This was scaled back in the ACA legislation, as far less unreimbursed care was envisioned.

In truth, if somebody collapses on the street with a heart attack (or whatever) our society would want (I hope) to see that person receive needed treatment, covered or not.

Politically, it might be prudent to assert that the *care* is covered, but not the *individual*, if the person is not in the US legally.  It makes little difference financially, but may make a difference in palatability of a given candidate.

It might be plausible for any given country to charge the country of a person's citizenship for unreimbursed care.  This would likely require a multilateral treaty.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #844 on: June 28, 2019, 10:02:55 PM »
Furthermore, I said absolutely nothing about my opinion about who should or should not receive government supplied healthcare.  If you wish to know my opinion, ask.  I've not provided it so far.

Quote
Withholding healthcare from people who are not legally in the country is not racist.  It's an issue about what should or should not be provided to people who have no right to be here

Hmmmm.  ???


Bob Wallace

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #845 on: June 28, 2019, 10:37:14 PM »
Furthermore, I said absolutely nothing about my opinion about who should or should not receive government supplied healthcare.  If you wish to know my opinion, ask.  I've not provided it so far.

Quote
Withholding healthcare from people who are not legally in the country is not racist.  It's an issue about what should or should not be provided to people who have no right to be here

Hmmmm.  ???

Are you unaware that there are a large number of white people who reside in the US without permission?  In my area there are many Eastern Europeans who came here on tourist visas and overstayed in order to participate in the marijuana industry.


aperson

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #846 on: June 28, 2019, 11:20:26 PM »
You can't think that you'll be reviled in 50 years if there's no concept of how things might be 50 years in the future.  One has to operate within the reality of the moment.  Do you condemn geologists for talking about the fixed placement of continents prior to Wegener introducing the idea of continental drift in 1912?

There is a difference between scientific fact and moral imperative. I would hope even you are aware that this is an egregious false equivalency.

If you have a basic sense of empathy and compassion you can easily find many things where there is a dissonance between how people act and how people should act. I can spot many things now that are generally acceptable that will likely be seen as taboo in the future: Denying transgender people rights, littering, etc....

I can cultivate compassion and listen to others and spot even more things. I would hope that the leader of our country is a person that does this instead of a means-tested weathervane that naively follows the zeitgeist through bad and good like Joe Biden.
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sidd

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #847 on: June 28, 2019, 11:22:56 PM »
Speaking of hospitals and medical care in the great capitalist republic of the USA:

"she had a different kind of appointment with her employer: the hospital was suing her for unpaid medical bills."

"owes Methodist more than $23,000"

"It’s surreal, she said, to be sued by the organization that pays her $12.25 an hour."

“You know how much you pay me. And the money you’re paying, I can’t live on,”

" sought to garnish the wages of more than 160 Methodist workers"

" a Methodist Le Bonheur employee who owes more than $1,200. In January, she proposed paying $100 a month, even though her sworn affidavit listed monthly expenses that exceeded her $1,650 monthly income"

"owed more than $5,400 ... checking account balance of less than $4 ... offered to pay $10 biweekly, or $20 most months, but Methodist’s attorney wanted $200 per month. The judge ordered her to pay $100 per month"

"Methodist’s health insurance benefits only allow employees to seek medical care at Methodist facilities"

"we [Methodist Hospital] recognize the responsibility we have as an organization to contribute to the success of the diverse communities we serve"

"offered to pay $50 every two weeks ... They said I’d be owing them all my life"

"Methodist bishops who serve on its board bear responsibility for reminding it of the denomination’s values."

"Bishop Gary Mueller’s office referred a reporter to Methodist Le Bonheur Healthcare’s communications office. Bishop Bill McAilly declined to comment. Bishop James E Swanson did not respond to multiple requests for comment."

"lowest-paid employees make $10 an hour and about 18% of workers make less than $15 an hour "

"made Forbes’ 2019 list of Best Employers by State"

"Times be hard, because sometimes my body feels like I can’t make it, but I get up anyway, because I don’t want to be homeless again.”

Read and weep:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/28/memphis-hospital-suing-own-workers-unpaid-medical-bills

Cue a defense of capitalism in 3...2...1...

Capitalism cannot fail ! Capitalism can only be failed ! Capitalism got electrolytes ! Capitalism is what's good for you ! Best Capitalism !

"Evry debt is sacred, evry debt is great
If a debt is wasted, God gets quite irate"

-- with apologies to Monty Python

Fuck that noise.

sidd
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 11:46:05 PM by sidd »

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #848 on: June 29, 2019, 07:38:49 AM »
I wrote a detailed and lengthy reply but I seem to be unable to post anything longer than a sentence or For. Fonts size on some of it shrinks strange markers appear it is a mess. >:(
I guess you don't get to read my rant so maybe that is a good thing.  ;D

b_lumenkraft

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Re: If not Capitalism... then What? And, How?
« Reply #849 on: June 29, 2019, 08:52:21 AM »
Oh boi, now i'm curious! ;)

Post the text only without formatting?